Hello

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

  I am concerned that if we move we’ll have even less community.
 

Perhaps she didn't think you were listening because you listened and then "made it about you" and your concerns?

Were you trying to SET and have this be the T (truth)?

Less words is more.


example

blah blah blah I have no one blah blah blah.

you:  That must be hard.

Then be silent and present.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

  I am concerned that if we move we’ll have even less community.
 

Perhaps she didn't think you were listening because you listened and then "made it about you" and your concerns?

Were you trying to SET and have this be the T (truth)?

Less words is more.


example

blah blah blah I have no one blah blah blah.

you:  That must be hard.

Then be silent and present.

Best,

FF

[Tiller]

I’ve tried that and was accused of not taking her seriously and not doing anything to help her. I was going for a SET approach but I’m finding it really difficult because the support and empathy aren’t even coming close to landing. I’ll keep trying, but I’m so frustrated.

[formflier]

Yes..this is hard and frustrating work.  Often a lot of work goes out, with little to show for it.  (part of the trial and error part of this)

Can you try to give me as much he said she said for when she accused you of not taking her seriously?

I was pretty sure you were going for SET.  Would be better to keep yourself out of it..no "I" in it. 

"Moving can also be lonely."     (the shorter the better)

Keep up the hard work..we can help you refine this stuff.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

I just had a textbook circular argument:
Partner: I just hate it here, we have no community, no friends, the teachers at the school hate all the parents and you don’t care.
Me: i can see how much you are not wanting to be here now and that you feel like we have no community. You’ve felt that way for a long time. I am concerned that if we move we’ll have even less community.
Partner; I don’t want to talk to you anymore you don’t listen to me.
Me: I’m sorry it feels like I’m not listening, from where I stand I’m listening intently, but don’t share your view.
Partner; it’s not a f@cking feeling, it’s an objective reality!
Me: I think I’ll go now, this is just going round and round.


Admittedly I didn’t handle that too well, and I absolutely questioned her beliefs, but I just don’t think that it will be any different anywhere else, but part of me wants to give in because it feels like only when we actually go will she be able yo let go of the grass being greener back in Darwin.

I’m the meantime she is going to be completely obstinate about the fact that we have no one here, and she’ll enforce this by not engaging with anyone.

I feel like it’s definitely a case of damned if I do dammed if I don’t. All I know is things can’t go on this way. I need to make changes and I’m still not clear what they are.

Actually I think you handled it pretty well.   I really liked that you took control and ended the conversation.   That's a plus.

There's no perfect way to say things that will make her respond rationally.   Right now that is beyond her.   

I like that you didn't engage with "it's objective reality".   Give yourself credit.

I know it wasn't a pleasant conversation but I think you did better than you can recognize right now.

[Tiller]

I just got the following text from my partner:

“ It’s so clear to me now that your job/career, your status as a home owner, your kids- are all more important than me and my needs. My needs are important to you only in context of being able to perform house keeping, child rearing duties and the emotional load and responsibility that comes with that. As long as I’m doing that stuff, The rest is my problem to figure out. When you do that stuff, you become a hero- in everyone’s eyes. We’ve both slotted into and internalised systemic sexism so well since having kids. It’s like when I had pneumonia, it’s like when I was traumatised at daughter's birth, it’s like when I had to demand, push you to tell your bosses you needed a 4 day week- then feel PLEASE READing guilty about it. if I can’t have my own back, like at the moment, you don’t have it. You’re not really listening or acting  because what I’m saying is deeply inconvenient. How bout this- we go back to Darwin, I get the full time job with status, maybe in gov policy or something, you get freelance or part time work to fit around kids needs and schedule. You could be a barista. We rent.”

And we’ve got a parent teacher interview that I said I’d really like her to come to this morning and got the following:

“ You figure out what to do about Our daughters  needs with her teacher. What’s best for her. You advocate for her. I’m just a helicopter mum in her and the schools eyes. it’s f@cked up. You take responsibility for her emotional well being and the foundations for mental health through her lifespan. Oh but don’t f@ck it up. Oh but stop being so precious and projecting. But don’t f@ck it up. That’ll be on you. Just do what the teacher says because they know your kid better than you and school is good and just let them get on with their job. But don’t f@ck it up cuz that kid is a walking anxiety disorder ready to go off and she’s inheriting a global dystopia. But just take a chill pill. But dont f@ck it up. ”

OMG! I don’t know where to begin!

[formflier]

I dont see a need to respond.

Anyone else think if a good response?

Best

FF

[GaGrl]

No need to respond. There is nothing valid to validate. A lot of spewing to ignore.

Tiller, can you tap into a local social service for a welfare visit?

[zaqsert]

Agreed. No need to respond.

When I first started not responding to my uBPDw's raging texts, it felt very uncomfortable. But then eventually she stopped texting, and seemed not even to expect a response.

Similar to how you walked away from a conversation that was going downhill the other day. Enforcing your own boundaries can feel incredibly uncomfortable at first. Then over time, as you do it more often and see the positive effects of your boundaries, it will probably get more comfortable.

Your partner may have an extinction burst when you first start enforcing a boundary. You'll have to sit that one out (and enforce your boundary again). Then she's more likely to get used to your new behavior.

[Tiller]

Then the next issue is, how do I go about talking to her tonight. She is going to want an answer to her proposal to move. I know I'm going to have to enforce a limit here about the texts she sent, but don't really know how to go about it.

Also, we've gotten into a pattern of me getting home, getting the kids fed, bathed and into bed and then I clean the kitchen, get the kids lunch and clothes ready for the next day and then go in to check on my partner.

At this stage she usually starts with I don't want to talk, just go to bed. I know that what she is saying is, you won't agree with me so I'm going to withhold talking to you until you do. Do you think a good approach would be to say the following:

The last few nights we've had some pretty difficult conversations and I've been hearing that you don't want to talk to me because I don't listen. If you want to talk to me, I'll be in the lounge room and I will listen as long as our conversation is respectful and not aggressive. If I feel the conversation is too aggressive or disrespectful, I will leave and we can resume talking when we've calmed down.

[babyducks]

Also, we've gotten into a pattern of me getting home, getting the kids fed, bathed and into bed and then I clean the kitchen, get the kids lunch and clothes ready for the next day and then go in to check on my partner.

I am going with an assumption here Tiller.   Correct me if I got it wrong.    The whole time you are feeding and bathing the kids, cleaning the kitchen etc etc she can hear you.   She knows you are home.   She knows you are working around the house.    Still she chooses to withdraw.     She chooses to retreat into the Netflix and the bedroom.     Did I get that right?      I would say let her withdraw and do not pursue her.       Don't go check on her.     

I believe you are completely correct.  she is using emotional reasoning and emotional manipulation in an attempt to get what she wants.    I would absolutely not share this insight with her.     this is an insight you want to become comfortable with and mature into different choices for yourself not something you discuss with her.

 

At this stage she usually starts with I don't want to talk, just go to bed. I know that what she is saying is, you won't agree with me so I'm going to withhold talking to you until you do. Do you think a good approach would be to say the following:

The last few nights we've had some pretty difficult conversations and I've been hearing that you don't want to talk to me because I don't listen. If you want to talk to me, I'll be in the lounge room and I will listen as long as our conversation is respectful and not aggressive. If I feel the conversation is too aggressive or disrespectful, I will leave and we can resume talking when we've calmed down.

No I wouldn't use this approach.    from what you describe there is very little chance anything new or productive would come from having the same conversation in the lounge room.     I would suggest you stop having the same conversation over and over again.   and I completely understand she won't like this.     right now when she is unhappy with something she tries to force you to comply with her wishes.    and you have been over functioning trying to reduce her acting out.    which has not worked at all.    you've participated in how many opportunities for her to express herself over the last 4 weeks?    how many times has that lead to a decent conversation?    stop doing it.

If it were me I would keep the conversation simple and civil, only when she makes a point of joining you.   In the kitchen.  or in the house.   not where she has stage managed the environment into "I am dying and rotting here in bed".    don't chase that illusion.     

I would keep the conversational approaches open - something like 'hey partner I am going to the market for fresh strawberries do you want to come along?'   or 'I noticed the Olympics are on TV and I am going to watch for a little while - are you interested?'

Enforcing your own boundaries can feel incredibly uncomfortable at first. Then over time, as you do it more often and see the positive effects of your boundaries, it will probably get more comfortable.

Your partner may have an extinction burst when you first start enforcing a boundary. You'll have to sit that one out (and enforce your boundary again). Then she's more likely to get used to your new behavior.

zagsert got it right.    once you stop chasing her and trying to talk her delusions out, she will have what we call an extinction burst.     an extinction burst is bad behavior becoming temporarily worse as the pwBPD grapples with not getting what they perceive as absolutely necessary.   

'ducks

[Tiller]

When I got home and checked in on her today, she was so triggered by me saying I wouldn’t speak to her while she is blaming everything on me, and I left the room, that she stormed out and when my 5 year old begged her not to go she said “your dad doesn’t give a sh@t about me and some more horrible things, which really upset our little girl.

I then got all of the below texts:

You’re talking to me like I’m a child in the most monotone patronising voice. What the hell is wrong with you?
You sound EXACTLY like my PLEASE READing father.
Because you’ll just get up in the morning like it’s any other day with your lovely job and your kids and your house- all the status markers- oh and your incredibly supportive community- never mind the atrophying mother who has no support, can’t move and is highly distressed in the other room- just a heads up I can’t ‘look after’ our youngest tomorrow.

She’s now using the withdrawal of her parenting  ability for the one day we have no care for our youngest to punish me it feels like.
I guess tomorrow as a stop gap I’ll take her with me to work, but then I need someone to look after her in an ongoing basis in this day. I guess all I can do is tell my partner that if she’s unable to look after her I’ll have to find her child care for that day. My worry is that she won’t accept whatever childcare option I present and may go a step further and withdraw gmher ability to do pick ups and drop offs on the days that aren’t possible for me.

[Tiller]

And she definitely can hear that I am feeding and bathing the kids, playing with them and cleaning every night.

[babyducks]

- never mind the atrophying mother who has no support, can’t move and is highly distressed in the other room- .

can you elaborate a little on why she feels like she is atrophying and can't move?
do you feel comfortable saying what medical treatment she has received or is following?

 

[Tiller]

She is using atrophying as a simile to rotting. She isn’t receiving any medical treatment for anything, and she isn’t willing to try seeing a therapist anymore, her words were “I’m done with therapy, I’ve been seeing psychologists most of my life and it’s pointless.

[Tiller]

I feel like I’ve just undone  a lot of the work I’ve been doing. My partner has been sending me  message after message saying if you care you’ll respond. Finally I went down to talk to her and she started blaming me for everything, when I got up to leave she said, “you know I’m looking up ways to kill myself” and jumped straight in that and said that I can’t ignore that and I’m going to have to get some support. She told mr if I do she will definitely spiral out  of control. She then started crying saying I wasn’t going to be able to help her, that I’m not there for her, that I’ll never understand and that I’ve never been able to advocate for her. Then she said I do nothing to support her and I took the bait in frustration and started listening all the things I’m doing, at which point she started rocking backwards and forwards saying oh my god, oh my god, oh my god until
I left.
I’m feeling really bad now that I’ve just made things a lot worse. I think she was just trying to get my attention by bringing up suicide ideations because straight after she said, now I’ve got your attention haven’t I. But maybe she’s serious? I hate this so much!

[babyducks]

Do you or she have any family or other supportive people in the area that you can reach out to?   

Are people close to you aware of what is going on in your life?

[Tiller]

I’ve let my partner’s best friend and parents know what’s going on even though she’s asked me to have no contact with them.
I just sat with her for another hour just letting her talk, much of it was circular and not productive, but I wanted her to feel heard and get some emotional release. Still a lot of blame towards me, and now she is talking more about that she just doesn’t want to be here anymore. She’s begged me not to talk to any support services about her mental health. She was institutionalized once before and she has a horrible and traumatic experience she doesn’t want to relive.

[ForeverDad]

I feel like I’ve just undone  a lot of the work I’ve been doing.

This is precisely what we warned you about... extinction bursts.

“you know I’m looking up ways to kill myself” and jumped straight in that and said that I can’t ignore that and I’m going to have to get some support. She told me if I do she will definitely spiral out  of control...

I’m feeling really bad now that I’ve just made things a lot worse. I think she was just trying to get my attention by bringing up suicide ideations because straight after she said, now I’ve got your attention haven’t I. But maybe she’s serious?

We repeatedly state that we here in peer support are not trained professionals, or at least not in that capacity.  Neither are you.  When there is claimed suicidal ideation, you do not have to discern whether it is real or posturing to manipulate you.  Let the professionals figure it out.

However, be very aware that odds are if/when you call emergency services then she will Deny saying anything of the sort, claim you're the bad guy, etc.  So if you do call, avoid her being able to deny by having some sort of documentation or witnesses to support your statements.

[kells76]

First of all,
 
So sorry it's like this for you right now.

There are a lot of moving parts, for sure. You're learning about new skills and trying them out, your partner is trying an "extinction burst" (raising the stakes of what she says and does as you have new boundaries), you have a job to do, and there's taking care of the kids.

I'll just focus on one piece of the puzzle as others are talking with you about the others (extinction bursts etc).

So, child care:

She’s now using the withdrawal of her parenting  ability for the one day we have no care for our youngest to punish me it feels like.
I guess tomorrow as a stop gap I’ll take her with me to work, but then I need someone to look after her in an ongoing basis in this day. I guess all I can do is tell my partner that if she’s unable to look after her I’ll have to find her child care for that day. My worry is that she won’t accept whatever childcare option I present and may go a step further and withdraw gmher ability to do pick ups and drop offs on the days that aren’t possible for me.

This may sound weird or "wrong", but...

what if you didn't have to tell her?

what if you didn't need to hang all the outcomes on whether or not she accepted what you chose?

I think we are on the same page, that she's not going to be, uh, happy, with ANY option, right? So is it really a matter of "getting her buy-in" or "going through the list of options until you find one she agrees with"?

Your kids need care whether or not their mom is able to provide it or agrees with any options. It's not possible to wait for their mom to "be on the same page" with you that "yes, Babysitter #3 is the best, let's together go with that".

In this season of your family life, you are the available and present parent. It is a lot on your shoulders. Can you take some of the weight off of yourself, by freeing yourself to move forward on your own with child care decisions, for now?

Yes, your W won't like it. But... I'm kind of thinking, in this time of her life, it's not like "oh, there IS an option she'd like, if I could just find it".

Care for your kids first, then you (your health, sleep, job, etc). That will truly put you in the best position to then care about your W. If all your energy goes to her first, what do you have left for you? And if you're running on empty, your kids will suffer, as unfortunately you are the only functioning parent right now, and no matter how much energy you pour into your W, it won't be enough, until she wants to and chooses to care about and heal herself.

...

So, please consider just moving forward with independent child care decisions. Consider looking at it not as "I'm hurting my W by not consulting with her or getting her agreement", rather, as "I'm helping my family as a whole, all members, by making sure the kids are cared for first".

It's also using less valuable emotional energy by being realistic about what your W is capable of at this time, rather than using more emotional energy by hoping or believing that maybe she is capable of more (i.e., normal parenting logistics) than she is.

Believe what she's communicating to you -- she isn't up for sharing parenting right now.

I wish it weren't that way for you. So, like babyducks suggested, right now is a season for you to find extra help on your own, rather than waiting for your W to suggest or agree with ideas.

Now is a season to dig deep and be vulnerable in reaching out for help for your kids -- do they have school friends/acquaintances whose parents would be up for taking the kids for a chunk of the day? Are you associated with a church or spiritual group? Can you leverage friend/family networks to find a good sitter in your area? Neighbors you trust? This may be a period in your life when you may need to be pretty open with people: "Our family needs help with child care, and as much as I feel awkward coming to you asking this, are you able to watch the kids from 10-6 every Monday and Wednesday? Or, do you know someone who can? Can you help me find an affordable child care group? It's hard for me to ask for help, but here I am."

My hope and intuition is that once you get the child care sorted out, you'll be in a better place to implement and follow up on some of the new tools/skills to make things "less worse" with your W. You'll likely have some more emotional bandwidth that you really don't have right now.

 

[Ventak]

Adding to what Kells said...

If your W is similar to my BPDw, she is unlikely to directly answer a question where a life decision is necessary.  If there are two options she will not pick one, but argue against or for both.  She will present a third option that is completely unrealistic.  She will change her mind after picking one and then go back and forth.  She sets it up so that no matter what I ultimately do, she will be "right" if something goes well and I will be "wrong" if something goes poorly.

In my case what I've found effective is I provide details, give her options and end up making the decision on my own based on what I believe is best for the family, taking her valid points into consideration as much as possible.  This of course leads to her "not having a voice" and that I "always get my way"... but it moves things forward in the most rational course.

[GaGrl]

Bottom line...She is not functional right now. She can't handle any of the day-to-day activities that keep the family and household running. You are over-functioning because of this.

So knowing she is not functional and not rational, how can she be the one to insist you don't ask for help with suicide ideation? It's not within your ability to make a judgement on the seriousness of her threats. You can't over-function for her in this area.

Call for help.

[Tiller]

After the suicidal ideations last night I ended up contacting her best friend, who my partner explicitly asked me not to contact, but it was either this or calling professionals which would have been way worse. Her friend decided she would get in the car and drive 3 hours to come tonight to support her/me and we didn’t tell her until her friend arrived. She is understandingly really angry at me for not talking this through, but I felt too worried that it might send her over the edge, it’s funny how trying to do something that comes out of a love Ing place can feel so brutal and awful. I don’t feel like a particularly good partner night now.

[babyducks]

After the suicidal ideations last night I ended up contacting her best friend, who my partner explicitly asked me not to contact, but it was either this or calling professionals which would have been way worse.

This had to have been a tough decision.   I have no doubt you thought it through and made the best one you could in a rough situation.

I am also glad she had a friend who was willing to drive 3 hours to visit.

Now what about you?     Do you have any family - parents, siblings, cousins who you can speak freely with?    Friends?   How about professional support?  Therapist?   Doctor?   Clergy ?    When I was in my relationship with my pwBPD I had a psychologist of my own.   The P was a great help to me.    I got professional competent advice from some one I trusted and new the whole story.     I would always recommend anyone in these types of relationships find a therapist for themselves, as an advocate for themselves.       Many companies have EAP's.   Employee Assistance Programs that can help make connections in the professional world.    Just trying to brain storm some ideas here... they might work for you... they may not.   

Call for help.

When GaGrl says call for help... understand that you really are the decision maker about what help and how much to call for.     Could the kids go on a visit to one set of grandparents for the weekend?    For the day?    Would that be a help or a hindrance?     How much vacation time do you have stored up?    would it be helpful for you to schedule a day off for you... to go recharge your batteries without the pressure of the children and your partner.    Its not a bad idea to take a few hours to escape the stress.

[ThanksForPlaying]

As babyducks says, it's important to work on yourself while also getting her the help she needs.

There's an interesting book called The Undefeated Mind.  It's not about BPD specifically, but it addresses the importance of creating a resilient mindset for yourself amid chaos. At the extremes, you want to get to the point where you can handle any situation that arises - even terrible things like suicide.  In some cases, suicide still happens.  But in many other cases, simply not being afraid of the unknown lowers the stress levels for all parties involved, and suicidal threats actually stop once they no longer hold power.  It's hard stuff - hang in there.