Mother is trying to convince me that fiancee' has mental issues

[wmm]

My partner and I were at a cottage with my family (9 of us) and my mom, who has BPD, paid the neighbour to take everyone for a tour of the area on his boat for two hours. My partner didn't want to go because of covid (we had all been tested but the neighbour who was driving the boat hadn't) and because he felt that it was too much time spent with my large and loud family. My mom didn't seem upset at the time (I didn't tell her that my family was loud) but when we got home she emailed me saying that there were things wrong with my partner mentally and that she was worried for our future children. She claimed that my partner never talked to anyone at the cottage or in general when with my family. My partner is very introverted and my family is very loud. At the dinner table, he gets overwhelmed with all the noise and it can be hard to get a word in so he doesn't talk much. He talks with everyone one on one. My mom also criticized him for this. I sent her and my dad some articles about introverts. She acknowledged that she hadn't thought about that but she still thought there were things wrong with him and sent another email ranting about him. I ignored the email and we didn't talk about it afterwards.

Last night, my mother sent me another email saying that she had done a lot of research and she thought my partner had agorophobia. She said that it could be treated with therapy, CBT, or medication. I looked up agoraphobia and he does not have it. My partner experiences some mild anxiety sometimes but it does not hinder his work or personal life. He is more reserved around my family because it's a big group and they're very loud. I replied to my mom and said that he did not meet the criteria for agoraphobia. I told her that he thrived in his work and personal life. I said I acknowledged that he had minor anxiety sometimes but he had tools to deal with it. I ended the email by saying that I loved and accepted my partner for who he was. I know she won't accept this and it won't be the last of her criticism or diagnoses. I plan on ignoring the rest of her emails because I know she won't change her mind unless I agree with her and tell her that I'll get my partner to get help (I'm not going to do that)

My partner and I are getting married next year. My mother offered to pay for it a long time ago and we accepted her offer because we can not afford to pay for our own wedding. I talk to my mother a lot because we are planning the wedding together. I'm not looking forward to having to talk to her so much and I'm worried that she'll bring up her concerns about my partner a lot.

On Wednesday my mother and I are going to see the venue together. I haven't told her yet that we want to get married outside instead of in the temple (not everyone will be able to see in the temple) because I'm afraid of her reaction. We're going to have lunch together before we go to the venue and I don't know what to talk to her about.

I guess I have multiple issues. How do I get her to stop gaslighting my partner? How do I deal with her while we have lunch together and what do I talk to her about? How do I deal with her while planning my wedding and the issues that might come up, i.e. her reminding me that she's paying for the wedding and calling me ungrateful? My main issue right now is that she's gaslighting my partner and I don't know how to deal with it. Usually, I would just ignore her but I can't because of the wedding.

[GaGrl]

Is she directly gaslighting your partner, or is she attempting to gaslight YOU, about your partner? It sounds like the latter, unless she is directly contacting your partner.

[wmm]

She's contacting me. It upsets me more than it upsets my partner. Could you please explain what you were saying more? Is she maybe gaslighting both of us.

[GaGrl]

"Gaslighting" is when someone tries to make you doubt your own perceptions of knowledge of reality. It's really not a very good term, certainly not medical, and comes from an old movie in which a man tried to convince a woman she was "crazy" by turning up and down the gas lighting in the room.

So unless as your mother is directly communicating with your partner to try to make him think he has these "conditions" she describes, it sounds like she is gaslighting you, and you in turn are communicating to your partner what she says.

Can you find a way, perhaps using a SET statement, that shuts down these comments and conversations? The Truth part of the statement let's you communicate a boundary that you won't discuss your partner's psychology any more. Of course, that means of she starts it up again, your boundary means you would need to stop the conversation.

[pursuingJoy]

wmm, first, I want to set aside a second to say congratulations on your upcoming wedding! This is an exciting season and I'm happy for you.  I love your idea of having the ceremony outside.

My MIL has undiagnosed BPD. It's likely that your mom's efforts to insert herself in your relationship will not stop with the wedding, so it is important to set firm boundaries with your mom now. I really like GaGrl's suggestion to use the SET method. It helps me identify what is critical to say, and to structure it in the most effective way possible. I'm not an expert but maybe something like the following would work?

Support: "I'd really like to make you feel better about this."
Empathy: "You seem really concerned about my wellbeing."
Truth: "My partner does not have agoraphobia. He is equipped with all of the tools he needs to be successful in life and relationships. I will not discuss this with you any further."

This approach requires sincerity, and follow through if she doesn't respect your limit.

[GaGrl]

Thanks for that SET example!

[beatricex]

hi wmm,
Congratulations on your upcoming wedding, how exciting

Agree with the SET recommendation made already.  With my Mom this also works, but maybe because she knows how independent and not easily swayed I am.  She is actually quite jealous of my independence, as she has told me in the past.

After SET say:
Mom, even if my husband does have agoraphobia, or any other mental health condition, I am prepared because I love him.  I am prepared to support him For the Rest of our lives, why we're getting married.  I cannot wait to find out everything about him, and for us to share our lives together.  So while you paint it as a negative, you really won't be swaying me that there is something wrong with my partner. 

In my Mom's case she backs off, because, I call her bluff essentially.  She could tell me she thinks my partner is growing horns and I'd laugh and say "Great, always wanted to adorn a set of horns, now we don't have to shop for Halloween costumes every year."

The trick is to make her think, with your tone and with the non-issue you are having with anything she is saying that is negative, that it's not getting to you.  If she knows it's getting to you, you could say any words, she's going to believe the non-verbal and continue the harassment.

Another strategy I use with my Mom, which I learned from her actually, is to just play dumb.  Mental what?  What did you say? I'm sorry I don't understand...[change subject].  Again, give it no weight, the trick is in your tone, and she will quickly realize she's not getting the reaction she hoped for which is to make you uncomfortable so she feels better.  BPD's are at their core extremely insecure, and projecting their junk onto us is just what they do to feel better.  Don't take the junk on.  Really, just start talking about the weather or pretend a bug just bit you, or completely change the subject to something very very remote from your partner (in time she will get the hint that the topic of your partner is Not a topic for her to bring up.  ever).  It's actually quite simple to do and just requires a little bit of practice.

You could also just twist what she said purposefully, say:
Mental?  Yes, he is very smart.  I think it's all the time he spends alone...I really love him, he IS very smart.  thank you  (kind of cruel because you know what she meant, you purposefully just twisted it around to what would have been nicer to hear, and go with it - this drives my Mom nuts, btw.  But, we have been in this dance a Loonnnnggg time, , and she deserves it HA.  I also learned this one from her.  I don't really feel bad about doing this, I only ever apply it to her or narcissitic people if necessary) 

My Mom knows very little about my husband and I don't give her any opportunities to dream stuff up either. 

good luck
b

[Notwendy]

Congratulations on your upcoming wedding.

A couple of thoughts on your situation:

With my BPD mother, other people have mental diagnoses- not her. Keep in mind that there's a tendency to project- think other people have a problem. My mother has decided that some other people have mental disorders or she'll talk about someone else's diagnosis.

One thing to keep in mind- just because someone says something, doesn't make it true. The information on JADE helps. We can't control what someone thinks, so defending that only adds fuel to the drama. It helps to mentally substitute something absurd for her statement. What if she tried to convince you that your fiance is a pink elephant? That doesn't make it true. I'd personally not react to her statement- maybe say " thank you, we will look into that" and if she pushes it say " we have looked into this and he's fine" and keep repeating that when she asks.

With my BPD mother, if she pays for anything, it's a form of control. So if we were to have an event and she paid for it, then it's her call on how it would go and who to invite. My parents paid for my wedding- and while it was a lovely wedding, it was as she wanted it. It also involved a lot of communication between us and mostly I agreed to her plans rather than argue, which would have been futile as my parents were paying for it. My suggestion to you in this situation is to decide which aspect of the wedding you will not compromise on- and let the rest go, so that there isn't constant drama over the plans. Hopefully some of your decisions are mutual. Looks like the venue is. Some decisions you could also leave to "natural consequences". So you wish to be outside the temple because it won't hold the number of guests. Rather than get into a conflict with her, let her look at the venue and how many it would hold- she herself will see the limits.

Understand too that the wedding she pays for is one day in the whole of your life with your fiance. Your friends would come to a wedding for you, no matter what you planned. If for some reason it's more about her wishes than you, you will still have a good time with your friends. You could even plan a more casual get together with them later if you wish.

Once you are married, it's then time to make plans for how the two of you will celebrate your holidays and functions together, when to include her and when not to. My own rule for anything we plan is to not accept any money from my mother as that is one form of control for her. That is something you and your husband can consider for the future.

[wmm]

Getting married outside is important us. At the same time, I'm at the point where I'll just get married inside of it means not having a big blow out with my mother. My fiance really wants to get married outside. Also, my fiance's father and stepmom aren't getting vaccinated so I don't think they'd feel comfortable going inside. My mom thinks it's ridiculous that they're not getting vaccinated and I'm worried that it'll just anger her more. It's very important that his father is there. They are very close.

I have to add that standing up to my mother scares me a lot and I usually just try to avoid her. I get a lot of anxiety/panic when I stick up to get.

[wmm]

*stick up to her

[Methuen]

This is difficult.  You are caught between a rock and a hard place.

How far advanced into the planning is she?

When my H and I got married almost 34 years ago, we paid for our own wedding.  We got exactly the wedding we wanted.  We had both sets of our parents in the wedding party, so everyone was happy.  About 2 years later we were buying our first house.  We took out a mortgage.  My mom came to the house one day and tried to give us a $10000.00 cheque.  We thanked her but declined and said we wanted to do this on our own.  You can imagine how that went.  She dysregulated for months.  We stood firm.  Once we had kids, from a young age she tried to pay them to do jobs for her.   We taught our kids to do things to help their gramma because it’s the right thing to do, and to tell her that.  So she gave them money on occasions such as birthdays and xmas, but at least there were no strings attached.

Since Your future inlaws aren’t  vaccinated,  having the wedding outside makes  logical sense.  Is the temple priest still marrying you, or is someone else marrying you?  Can whomever is marrying you tell your mother that instead of you?

It sounds like your mother feels entitled to make decisions about your wedding.  The more control she gets, the more she will likely take.  She probably sees your wedding as her wedding too, and thus it has to be her idea of perfect for her.  Sometimes our mothers haven’t differentiated - they see us as an extension of their own self, and can’t accept that we want something different.  Since everything is black and white with BPD, one person must be right and the other wrong.  And they can never be wrong.  Hence shes going to say you must be married  in the  temple.

One solution is to find another way to finance the wedding so you can control all the decisions.  Another solution is to let her make all the decisions for your wedding.  In between  those extremes, you and your partner can discuss and agree on what you want and need, and what is negotiable  and what isn’t.  Pick your battles, and try not to sweat the small stuff.  Like someone else said, its one day in the rest of your life.

Congratulations on your upcoming wedding!  Whatever happens, the most important thing is the love bond between the two of you.

[pursuingJoy]

Getting married outside is important us.

I have to add that standing up to my mother scares me a lot and I usually just try to avoid her. I get a lot of anxiety/panic when I stick up to get.

wmm, it's really normal to feel scared! I can definitely relate!   The issue is that when we avoid confrontation, we're setting the tone for how we expect to be treated. Like Methuen said, it's not just about this moment, or hosting the ceremony outside. It's about the role that your mom expects to play in your relationship.

What is the worst that could happen if you insisted on hosting the wedding outside?Love M's suggestion to recruit the person who will officiate to take on the task of requiring it. Like NotWendy suggested, is the fact that she's paying for it something she's holding over you to get her way? What decision would you regret later?

This is about your wedding and this is about the long game. No matter what you decide we're here to support you. We get how complicated this can be. Big hugs to you!

pj

[Notwendy]

I understand how hard it is to stand up to your mother.

Parents with PD's tend to see their children as extensions of themselves, not as separate unique individuals who are different from them.

Boundaries are not what we impose on another person but reflect our own values and wishes. We can't make someone respect our boundaries. We hope they will and people who have healthy boundaries themselves tend to respect other's boundaries.

When you say to your mother "it's important to us to have an outdoor wedding"-a parent with good boundaries would be able to see " this is important to my child" and if they can accommodate that, they would and if not, they'd explain why. When your mother dismisses your wish " oh it's ridiculous- they can get vaccinated" she is not seeing you or them as separate people. It's - well I want it this way so they should do it- meaning if she wants it -you all must want it too. This is how people with poor boundaries respond.

The hitch here is that she is paying. I certainly think you should make your request for the outdoor wedding you want. Unfortunately, you can't control her response. All you can do it control your response to that if she says no. However, I do think you should at least try.

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother recently said to me, in her most earnest and lucid sounding voice, how very concerned she is about a siblings' mental health. Anyone hearing this without any background would truly believe she's totally normal and being the most concerned parent. She then shared a story about this sibling's behavior making it sound very irrational and hurtful.

I know the story- she was being verbally abusive and in a rage.  My mother said "I can't understand this and it was so cruel and hurtful". She made it sound like there was no reason to walk outside to avoid her.

At first, I could not believe what I was hearing. It was so convincing, but because I knew the whole story, her version was a made up lie about it. But as far as she believes- she is perfectly fine, if there's an issue it's because the other person has mental issues.

[sp|ne]

Don't really know how bad your mom is or what the exacts of the situation are, but here are things purely from my perspective of having my BPD mom.  I am 37 yo, married 5 years with 1 child FYI.

Definitely not a good idea to have your mom help pay for the wedding, that would be a massive NO in my book ... and I think about money stuff a lot, my parents (BPD mom and passive dad) manipulated me with money when I was a kid, my mom had a trust fund and used that power to do some serious FOG.

IMO if you could I'd just pay for your own wedding.  Take out a loan if you need to (my opinion, obviously others will disagree)

The only way I ever got my mom to somewhat change her behavior was by cutting her off for 3 years.  Actually I only let her back in my life because we got married.  She was more passive after that.  

So you asked how you can get her to stop gaslighting, I personally don't think it's possible but again it depends on your mom and how bad she is.  Again, all that's worked for me is cutting her off, putting up extremely strong boundaries, and being emotionally distant and dishonest when it serves the purpose of avoiding conflict.

If your mom is bad, the combination of the new partner (who competes with you and is therefore a threat), the change in situation (which increases stress levels), the money dynamics (which provide her power), and the massive possibilities for manipulation ... will only lead to bad places.

The potential consequences are increased conflict with your future spouse, who you should prioritize as they are your "chosen" family, hopefully an individual who is highly dissimilar to your mom.  PRIORITIZE THEM.

One last thing, I saw in the comments above someone saying the wedding is "just one day" in your life or something, I strongly disagree with that, your wedding is/should be sacred in whatever way you want it to be, it is a really important day and work hard to make sure she doesn't ruin it or really mess it up.  It's not just one day, it' your ****ing wedding day.

Another edit -  I later read that you said standing up to her gives you a lot of anxiety/panic.  I totally get that and I used to feel that way until my anger just boiled over and I didn't give a **** about anything anymore.  That being said, in my experience avoiding is actually a pretty decent solution.  That's kind of what I do, and it works well but I have strong boundaries and my mom lives an ocean away.  Previously she lived half the country away.  If your mom lives close to you ... you can keep avoiding, but she will probably just keep stirring up trouble like this until you can stand up to her better.  It will be extra important now because you need to work hard to protect your spouse from the madness.

[Notwendy]

Surely, it's everyone's choice to have the kind of wedding they wish. The caveat is that they, or someone, has to pay for it. I agree that the best of all worlds is to not have BPD mom pay a dime and make the wedding however you want it. But this also has to be determined according to what one can afford.

I would be the first to admit that I didn't have the wedding according to what I would have chosen, but at the time, the emotional cost of cutting off my BPD mom ( which is what would have been necessary to get her out of the wedding) would have been extremely difficult and I wasn't ready to break contact with my father. Still, it is a choice. Our other option would have been to elope- as a wedding was not affordable and we would not have qualified for much of a loan. During the wedding planning I sometimes considered eloping, but knew it would cause a major family rift I wasn't ready for.

Decades later, I don't even remember the kind of flowers we had or the food at the wedding, or all the kind of details I might have chosen differently. This may be more meaningful to others, but this was not the kind of decision I was ready to cause a family rift over. Working at a relationship, building our own family life, this has been more significant. My mother is still difficult to deal with, but I did have my father in my life for the most part, and my kids had a good relationship with him. If this was the trade off for not having the wedding my way,  I feel it was the better decision.

However, we all have our boundaries and values. For me, the time I did have to set boundaries with my mother came later. This time it was about protecting my kids from her and myself from her emotional abuse. And the family rift and loss of my father came with that and while I grieved that loss, I also knew then that this was the right choice to make.

It is unfortunate that we are placed in these difficult choices. None of us would want these kinds of conflicts with a BPD parent but this seems to be the reality of what they are, and there's a cost to deciding either to do things their way, or our way. Still there is choice- and if having the wedding your way is truly important to you, then it very likely means financing on your own.

[wmm]

Unfortunately paying for my own wedding is no feasible for me. I can't afford to take out a loan either. I'm currently trying to pay off car debt so I can't take on any other expenses. If my mom didn't pay for it I would have to get married at city hall. Even that costs about $600, which is expensive for me. It would cause a huge problem with my mom. She also controls contact with the rest of my family. Being married is important to me. The actual wedding isn't that important. That being said, getting married outside is important to my partner and of course we want his family to attend. My partner and I have been together for 9 years. I think that my mom doesn't like that he doesn't always do what she wants like other people in my family do. Her criticizing him instead of me is a new thing. He's seen how badly she's treated me though so he doesn't like her and doesn't go out of his way just to please her.

[Notwendy]

Your wedding situation is very similar to how mine was. Basically, it was my mother's wedding and I was probably more like just a prop for her party. I wasn't aware of her diagnosis at the time or the extent of the dynamics in our family. She also controlled my father's relationship to me and her FOO to me.

If she's paying- this is not a battle you can win. This is why I don't accept any money from my mother- it has strings attached and she uses it for control. However, being young and not having much money puts you in a difficult position when it comes to your wedding. I think it would help to have a game plan- you get married and then- you and your H put some boundaries in place- one of them being do not accept any money from your mother ( unless you are starving or something like that) because if she pays she also controls.

One idea might be to go with the health situation for an outdoor wedding. For this it would help to have an ally and that might be the person who is conducting the wedding or a  staff person at the place of worship you are getting married in. With the delta variant on the increase, some areas are putting health restrictions in place and due to the size of your wedding, you may not be able to social distance inside. So they can say to your mother " for health reasons we must have the wedding outside" and this would be hard to argue with. If the officiant at your wedding is willing to be your advocate and say this, it may help. Most clergy are aware of issues with weddings and family drama. They may be willing to help you with this.

[pursuingJoy]

I'm a third vote for getting the officiant to back you up, maybe even take the lead on the conversation about having the wedding outside.

I also want to add support for the 'not accepting money' boundary once you're married. My MIL uses gifts and money to win over, tie us to her, and to have something to hold over us.

How are you feeling with all of this, wmm? I can't imagine these are fun things to have to navigate as you're planning your wedding. You ok?

[wmm]

I don't plan to accept any more money from my mom. I was quite reluctant to accept it this time and almost turned it down.
I'm feeling anxious. I also have general anxiety disorder so that makes situations with my mom worse.

[pursuingJoy]

I was quite reluctant to accept it this time and almost turned it down.

You considered every other option and you chose the best option for you. I'm sorry this comes with its own weight and frustrations, especially for such a special occasion.

Anxiety can be draining and stressful all by itself. What is the best way that we can support you? Is your mom still making comments about your partner?

[GaGrl]

When do you need to finalize a decision about the ceremony venue?

[Turkish]

I think that my mom doesn't like that he doesn't always do what she wants like other people in my family do. Her criticizing him instead of me is a new thing. He's seen how badly she's treated me though so he doesn't like her and doesn't go out of his way just to please her.

Do you think this will change after you are married?
We can help support you with that, we're here for you. 

Normally (healthily), is understandable for a patent to be concerned or care about a child's partner<--- she's treating you like a child.

I'd nip any further talk about your future husband's mental issues personality in the bud.

This is a good communication technique which works verbally as well:

Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm

Personally, I wouldn't even SET that: "thanks for the info." But that's me...

Not to go Dave Ramsey, but I'd figure out how to come up with the money by cutting expenses (I saved $40/mo giving up my 7-11 morning coffee habit, e.g.), and "elope" at city hall and then plan for a ceremony and celebration later when you both save up, on your terms. It's good to respect patents and family, but this is your new family. You mentioned Temple. Genesis 2:24.

[Methuen]

I don't plan to accept any more money from my mom.

This will be the beginning of some freedom of choice on your part, without obligation to your mom.

So in my case, when my mom unexpectedly showed up with a $10000 cheque 30 years ago, to help us with what she decided was the purchase of our first home, it was my husband who stepped forward and spoke up and said "thank you for the offer, but we want to do this on our own, so that we can feel the pride of doing this ourselves".  In your case, it's about a wedding (or maybe the next expense after the wedding) instead of buying a house.  I was glad my husband told her instead of me, because he didn't have the same emotional baggage I did, and the message was much easier for him to deliver, than for me to deliver.  I would have been very anxious to tell her.  When the time comes for the message to be delivered to your mom, I'm thinking it could also reduce your anxiety if your fiance (or husband depending on the timing) delivers it.  Do you think it would help your anxiety if he told her instead of you?  Would he be ok with that?

It's trickier for you, because she has made up this nonsense about "mental issues".  I'm with Turkish on that.  I would nip that one in the bud.  "Mom, he has no more mental issues than you or I, so let's pretend you never said that!"

I was quite reluctant to accept it this time and almost turned it down.

"Almost" turned it down, but didn't?  Can you put your finger on why it was so hard?
My mom felt rejected when we declined the $10000.  Although it was a long time ago, I remember it well.  But you know what?  She got over it.  Life went on.  We had two kids...who are now all grown up.  My point is that even if your mom is uncomfortable when you or fiance tells her and stops accepting her financial help, she will get over it.  At the time, we tried to spin it that our parents could be proud of us for working hard and achieving these milestones on our own.  Three of the parents loved it and respected us, and my mom didn't love it. While her emotions went out of kilter and she felt rejected, they were just that - emotions. Eventually she figured out she wasn't actually rejected because we found lots of ways to spend time together - but without the strings attached.

Now all these years later, any time we have news or information I am fearful of delivering to my mom, my H or S26 (golden child) does it.  It makes makes me and you less of a target if someone besides us delivers the messages that could have emotional responses from our mothers.  They understand the reasons.  BTW, this was also the advice of my therapist.  It's a super helpful strategy for managing anxiety.  Maybe the dynamics of your situation are different, and some other strategy will be more helpful.  Or perhaps your fiance wouldn't mind taking that on?

Best wishes moving forward Wmm.  Is the wedding day coming up soon?

[Notwendy]

Accepting anything material from my mother is an emotional trap.

Anxiety is understandable. Recall that our parents have raised us since infancy, when we were very  dependent on them. We feared my BPD mother. It's illogical now, as we are grown. She can't hurt us, but still we feel anxious around her and when dealing with her. It's interesting that my children see her differently. The know about her mental health issues, they have seen her behaviors, but they don't fear her. This is because they didn't grow up with her behaviors like her own children did. I am glad for them that they don't feel this way.

It's important to not blame our parents for what is our own feelings of anxiety- only we can manage our own feelings. But understanding why we feel that way is a step towards managing them. Yes, you feel anxious saying no to your mother. I do too because it usually results in her awful response. She knows that and manipulates me with that. She even threatens " I will cause a big scene if you don't..." and she will. Sometimes I can deal with that, sometimes I just can't. However, this kind of behavior is how she gets her way.

For you to have boundaries in your marriage, you will have to maintain them. Having the wedding your way, on your budget, may be the first step. If you have already agreed to the wedding her way- and if deposits have been made and plans are in place that would really be disruptive or costly to change- maybe consider going with the plan that you have in place now. Once you are married- the boundaries begin. Consider that you and your H can do your own vow renewal ceremony with just the people you want there at a later time as well.

[beatricex]

hi again wmm,
I think something that I always hoped when I was your age, and first getting married...I always hoped and wished  my mother would change.

Through the years, through therapy, through support and encouragement from others and reading lots of books...too many to count...i realized that I needed to change.

I needed to accept that my reaction to my mother was what was the problem not her.  My reaction was the only thing i could control afterall.  So, I had to get some new skills.  I needed a new playbook, not the one she used, not our old dance, but the new one.

My mom happens to be ocd and controlling.  We had rules in the house I grew up in, that were bizarre.  Like forks up and knives down in the dishwasher.  She yelled at us if we got it wrong.  So I started putting the forks down and knives up in  my own dishwasher cause He!l it's MY dishwasher.  When you find yourself following her rules, but you no longer live with her, ask yourself :  Why am I trapping myself in her He!l? 

After just trying the dishwasher thing then go against the normal script.  Say something out of character, just once.  Make it a goal and do it just once.  It becomes easier with time but you do have to do it once, or you will never do it ever.

I think the mental health of your future husband and it not being her concern is the Forks Down in the Dishwasher kind of moment.  And it's time to get that one over with and move on.  Trust me, you will do a dance, you will be elated, you will hug yourself if you could just get that one boundary established, get it out of the way and prove to yourself that you can do it.

I know how difficult this is and we wouldn't be asking you to do it, unless we didn't understand how important it is.

hope this helps
hang in there, we are all on your side
b

[wmm]

I went to the wedding venue with my mother today and told her that we wanted to get married outside. She didn't like it. She didn't yell but I know it's not over. We decided to wait and see how it goes with Covid. I'm not get married until May 2022. I'm also in Canada and the situation is a lot better here than in the US. She said that she doesn't want to wear a mask inside. I don't see my fiance's unvaccinated parents going inside somewhere without masks. I haven't told my partner this because I know it will upset him so much. We've already put down deposits on things so it feels like it's too late to change plans. I almost wish we had had a blowup and resolved it instead of just waiting to see what happens with Covid.

[GaGrl]

So getting married outside is safer, plus allows you to move forward with planning, right?

I think the sooner you lock in the format of the ceremony and reception, the better you will feel.

[kells76]

wmm, I'm curious, and let me know if I've missed your thought on this somewhere:

Do you have a concern that if your mom doesn't get what she wants in planning/financing your wedding, that she won't attend? And that would be hurtful to you?

[Methuen]

She said that she doesn't want to wear a mask inside.

A healthy mom wouldn't be saying this to you.  She should be listening to what you and your partner want,  and supporting you to give you the wedding you want regardless of who is paying for it. If she has different ideas, she can present them, but not impose them.  But of course she doesn't have these skills.  So...I have a few suggestions for possible responses to her comment.  I'm not sure if they could be helpful or work for you, but I thought I would share just in case.

- I appreciate you don't want to wear a mask inside.  It would be nice to not have to wear a mask.  This is why we are choosing to have the wedding outside.

- I can understand you don't want to wear a mask inside to our wedding.  You would like to be dressed up special and look  nice for this day.  Some people attending the wedding including our guests won't be vaccinated, so we are having the wedding outside so that masks won't be necessary.

- I can appreciate you don't want to wear a mask inside at the wedding.  However some people including guests won't be vaccinated, so we are going to have the wedding outside so that all the people we love and care about and want to be at our wedding can attend and celebrate with us, and everybody can also be safe.  

I went to the wedding venue with my mother today and told her that we wanted to get married outside. She didn't like it. She didn't yell but I know it's not over.

Good for you for telling your mom you wanted to get married outside.    She didn't like it, but give her time (as much as she needs) to adjust to the idea.  Perhaps she will accept it, but if she brings it up again, stick to your script about telling her that you are getting married outside.  Avoid long explanations.  Just keep it simple.  Avoid an argument.  SET statements such as the above will validate her feelings, while also giving you the opportunity to state your truth (having the wedding outside).

[Notwendy]

Do you have a plan B for the event of rain? I think outdoor weddings are lovely, but I also think it's wise to have a plan B in case of rain.


I don't think this is over either, so there are some choices-

It's still a long ways away- what is the penalty on pulling the deposits? If it's not too much, you can consider cancelling the plans and taking a small loss, and doing your own wedding.

If there's considerable cost to cancelling, then go with the plans, realizing that the wedding is a long ways off. Anything can happen with Covid-19 but the natural course of these pandemics have been at about 2 years. It may be that things calm down enough by next May so that masks are not an issue. Or ( I hope not), we are limiting social gatherings. Or, your in laws might decide to get vaccinated if they are hesitant once the vaccine has been out for over a year. There will be FDA approval and perhaps even revisions to the first vaccine. The point being- we don't know how things will be with Covid by next may and it's likely to be less of an issue.

Don't bend on your wishes, but also know that if mom is paying, it may be a losing battle. Do you want almost a year of mama- drama?  The camel nose under the tent is the payment. The minute my mother puts any money on something, it's a constant control battle. That's why I stop at that, but it took some time to learn that. I didn't know that at my wedding, but I knew that if I didn't just go along with her, there'd be constant friction- and she'd get my father on the case as well ( Karpman triangle)

She can keep up the pushing longer than I can. I don't want to spend the time doing that- but she has the time and I suspect she enjoys the power.

The outcome though - was lovely because my mother had invited her friends and it truly was a nice event in terms of venue, flowers, music. The result was- we are married and have started our own life together- and have had to learn to set boundaries with my mother. A main one is to not accept any money from her, not one dime.

This drama continues for any event. I wanted to include my parents in family celebrations- kids' birthdays, graduations, etc. Each time BPD mother was there, the drama began. It starts with " I'd like to pay for the lunch for everyone" and if I were to say "yes" then she'd invite her friends and family and turn it into an event that showcased her. I soon realized that my part in this was to be the reason, the prop, for her party. That stopped.

It happened a while back when we planned to see her for her birthday and have a get together with her friends and family. On the day we were to arrive ( the get together was later in the weekend) we agreed to meet her for a quick dinner, just us, as we were travelling and knew we'd want to rest. Then she called and said she wanted to provide the dinner ( pay for it) I should have known better but I thought, what's the harm, and so said OK. Well long story short, what I wanted ( a quick small dinner with just us) turned out to be her planning to have some of her friends "drop by" without telling me ( and I had said I wanted it to be just us- knowing we'd see them soon). Somehow this slipped out "so and so might just be around" ( and then I knew what she was up to). So, I refused, called the restaurant and cancelled the reservation. We ended up eating fast food at our hotel- just us. She was furious. But what could have been a simple quiet dinner was a lot of drama and conflict.

Once the two of you are married, you can have your celebrations on your terms and your budget. In my situation if my mother pays, it's on her terms and I don't have the choice.

[wmm]

This is all helpful. I feel like if I wasn't so afraid of her I could just put my foot down and tell her we would be getting married outside. The thing is, if it's raining we'll have to move inside anyways. Inside is very beautiful. If everyone were vaccinated I'd be happy to do it inside. She thinks it's ridiculous that we would do it outside "just for my fiance's father". I don't think she'd think it would be ok if it was my father who wasn't vaccinated. She thinks it's ridiculous that he's not getting vaccinated. My fiance's grandmother is also terrified even though she's fully vaccinated. Those are two very important people. I feel disappointed with myself for not being more firm with her. I feel like I failed. The thought that this issue could go on for months really stresses me out. I talked to my partner about having him talk to her but he said he would have a hard time knowing what to say. When he gets upset he has a hard time expressing his feelings. My other siblings are much better at sticking up to my mom. She doesn't terrify them like she terrifies me. I am the oldest though so I think I had to deal with more of her problems as a child. I wish I was more courageous when it came to dealing with her. It's not just thoughts, I get a really bad physical feeling when it comes to dealing with her. It's so overwhelming.

[Notwendy]

Please don't feel like you failed. You didn't. You are working with a parent who does not consider your wishes. You didn't cause this. I have been in the same situation as you with a wedding. Even if I did stand up to my mother, it would be a losing battle. She would have enlisted my father to her side. It would be a big scene, one I was not ready to deal with. Nor did I know how. I was not allowed to stand up to her.

Somewhere we have a bottom line. Mine was not the wedding. Mine was when she wanted to enlist my adolescent children as her emotional caretakers, confide in them, and pull them to her side against me. I knew then I had to have boundaries. This, in addition to some arguments over my father's medical care ( he was ill at the time) was the start of a rift in our family as she rallied her family and my father to her side against me. I lost my father, not physically then, but he became angry at me. It was not long after that that he passed away. I do not regret that I stood up to her, but the emotional cost was significant.


Looking back, I did not have the wedding as I would have it exactly, but it was also a lovely wedding. We moved far away enough so that my mother could not just drop in on us, but not too far so that my parents were not able to spend time with my kids. My father and my kids formed a special bond. They didn't bond with my mother in the same way I didn't- she's basically an observer, didn't interact much with them except when they could serve her needs. She's cold and unaffectionate. My father would get on the floor with them when they were little, play games with them, read to them. They loved him.


I certainly get the fear. I have been afraid of my mother. She has no personal power herself, she didn't work to earn the money she has, but she had total control of what my father earned and uses it to control other people. She also controlled his ability to have a relationship with anyone, and if she didn't want it to happen, she'd raise an unbearable scene.

I was only able to say no to her without too much fear until after my father died, because I was afraid of losing my relationship with him. Standing up to her over my kids also included fear but I was determined to not ever let her do to them what she did to me. At their age, I had to become her emotional caretaker. She tried to triangulate me against my father and also was emotionally abusive. There is no way I would let her do this to my kids no matter what. However, I didn't expect my father to be angry at me for this.

I agree that you should have the wedding you want. If this were a normal situation,  a wedding would be a combination of what she wants and what you want and working out some sort of solution to it that suits you. This is impossible with my mother. It's all or none, her way, or completely leave her out ( and we have done that too if we want to have a peaceful family get together). The cost of standing up to my mother is to be cast out of her circle. This may be the cost for you too.

This is a pick your battle situation because so long as your mother is paying, it's a battle that you may not be able to win. As to Covid, masks and vaccines- a year from now may look very different. People may disagree with me but for the sake of not engaging in constant battle with my mother, over something we don't know yet, I'd drop it for now. A year from now it may not be an issue.


Or, you pull out of the wedding altogether, do it your way and face the consequences. This will likely happen again over various situations, where she tries to influence how you do things with your new family. At this point, you can decide if you even want to include her or not. Do not let her pay for anything. But it looks like the wedding may not be the time to start but that doesn't mean you can't set boundaries once you are married.

[wmm]

I definitely plan to set boundaries. I have started to set easier boundaries (not sleeping over with my family for my mother's birthday celebration). I feel like pulling out of the wedding would cause waaay more drama than deciding on inside or outside. Everything else she wants for the wedding is lovely. I just want everyone who is important to be able to be there. I agree that I should wait and see closer to the date due to covid. I just don't know how to cope with my anxiety for now. Just thinking about having to deal with it down the line gives me anxiety. If I were to cancel the wedding my mother would go into a rage and try to cut me off from my family. She controls the contact with everyone and my dad just does what she wants. Cancelling the wedding doesn't seem worth it since I'd lose contact with my family. I just need to know how to deal with the current anxiety and not obsess about it

[Notwendy]

I would recommend counseling. Not because there's anything wrong with you, but that you were raised in a family with a disordered parent and this affects everyone in the family. Family members adapt certain behaviors to compensate and get along. These behaviors made sense in context. As a child, your very survival depends on them, if not physical, emotional. As an adult you are not as dependent on your parents but the feelings and patterns are set. Changing your part in this creates anxiety for you, as it feels threatening when in actuality, it isn't as much of a threat to surviving in your family now that you are grown.


We take these behavior patterns into our adult relationships, and this includes those with our romantic partners. You may begin to feel anxiety sticking up for yourself, saying no to your husband even though he won't react like your mother would because you are used to her reaction. I admit that taking my behaviors- people pleasing and being afraid to say no- into my own marriage caused marital issues. An intimate relationship requires being authentic, and you certainly have the ability to be authentic, but you also have the fears and anxiety from your upbringing.

The best part about learned behaviors is that we can unlearn them and learn new and better ones. Counseling and working on co-dependency really helped me to deal with my mother better and it also helped my marriage. Imagine if- you started now, and by the time you got married you brought an emotionally stronger YOU into your marriage. It's a wonderful investment in you  to consider.

[wmm]

I'm currently in therapy and am starting doing CBT with my therapist. My partner and I have lived with each other for 9 years. I have no problem sticking up to him. We have a very good and healthy relationship. I hope the therapy will help with my mother. I've done therapy before but it was mostly just processing past events.

[Notwendy]

That's good because standing up for myself has been something I have struggled with, and it's good to know you have been working on that.