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truthdevotee
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« on: July 23, 2021, 02:40:21 AM »

I feel sad about my relationship with pwBPD.
My relationship with her is so hard. It’s so confusing.

And I can see more and more clearly that it’s because she has an illness, despite how confident and assertive she appears to be on the outside. This is one of the very confusing things about her… she fights so hard and is so confident that she is right and that I am the cause of our problems, that I almost start to believe it. But now there is a small light in the back of my mind that reminds me she is ill and she has a disorder.

This light by and large helps me to manage our relationship with more grace, but sometimes things become too overwhelming.

It’s also sad that distancing myself from her is often the only option available sometimes... most of the time.

Do I really have to leave her to be happy? It feels like this might be the case.

I feel sad for her because she’s really confused. She really struggles. She does her best and somehow it is just not enough to deal with life’s requests. Having two young boys is hard for anyone. Despite all this, she refuses to get babysitting help. Currently it is the summer time and so our older son (4 year old) isn’t at school. Trying to juggle work responsibilities with childcare and managing this difficult relationship is hard.

But I’m making progress. I explained to my older sister who was saddened about my loss of contact with my family of origin. I explained that my partner has a disorder and an illness. This was a good healing step for me and my family of origin. It took me a long time and a lot of support to get to the point of revealing this to my sister, because my pwBPD had convinced me that saying anything about her to others is bad. Out of integrity I listened and honored her. And I became completely isolated, with the exception of talking to my 12 Step sponsor, finding this group and reading the books…

I now talk to friends about my relationship with my pwBPD which is also supportive for me.

My pwBPD is really confused, and she really, really struggles, and suffers... and I feel anxious about her sometimes despite my focus on wellness, health and looking after myself to a large degree...

Do I really have to leave her to be happy? It feels sad to think that I would have to. I’d feel sad for my boys who I desired have an intact family system.

But as the patterns continue to repeat themselves since the beginning of 2021 (when I found out for the first time she has BPD), I see that I am choosing to be in a relationship that is less than satisfying.

The moments of peace and spaciousness in the relationship come intermittently and fill me with false hope, or at least give me the space to forget about the last storm.

There’s an innate desire within me to “forget” about the pains and troubles and lack of intimacy. The peace itself is a gift. Yet, inevitably, the next storm comes.

How do I know if it’s the right thing to do to leave… how do I find the strength to do it if it is the right thing?

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truthdevotee
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2021, 02:42:52 AM »

More and more I realize how hard it is to live in a relationship where no real intimacy (truth) can live.

I have more intimacy with colleagues, friends and family members than with my own wife...

We have really very little to talk about and the hurts are so frequent that I just don't want to be around her 90 to 95% of the time.
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« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2021, 09:33:30 AM »

I know you a probably just venting. But, I really get this! 
When I realized I needed help I thought, maybe I just need a seperation for a bit to heal and recover... then I would feel intense guilt for even thinking that.
Now, I think the only way for me to have any peace or happiness is to have a permanent break. But...is my path to healing going to hurt my kids even more?
So, I am not any help. I'm just right there with ya.


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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2021, 11:26:44 AM »

Many members with children struggle with this issue. Is it better to try and maintain an intact family and sacrifice my own happiness or is it best for the children to have at least one home with a happy parent?

This would be a good topic to explore on the Conflicted board, so I’m going to move this thread there.
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2021, 01:04:18 PM »

Many members with children struggle with this issue. Is it better to try and maintain an intact family and sacrifice my own happiness or is it best for the children to have at least one home with a happy parent?

Several years ago I came across the quote below, attributed to various sources.  This is the oldest reference I found, from a 1986 book titled Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce.  I bought it to confirm and found it on page 195.

An interesting observation by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action, as appropriate, will enable your lives or at least a part of your lives to be spent be in a calm, stable environment - your home, wherever that may be - away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

In short, you can choose to make the best of a lousy situation, whether you stay with demonstrated improvement, "stay for now" pending improvement or whether you go.  The reasonable best.
Your decisions of course will be affected by your spouse's actions and behaviors.  But it's always up to you to decide what boundaries you will set in your life, what you will do or not do, etc.

I would add this perspective too...  Many think they can't "leave" their children but they are already leaving their children to work almost daily, go shopping, etc.  Yes, there is a risk a family court could decide we get less time with our children but at least part of the children's lives would be in a stable, reasonably normal home.  Ponder whether that is a better example for the kids than living in a dysfunctional home.

Some here do stay together but typically that is when the dysfunction isn't as severe.  How unhealthy your family's dysfunction is, that's for you to evaluate.
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2021, 12:10:29 AM »

Some here do stay together but typically that is when the dysfunction isn't as severe.  How unhealthy your family's dysfunction is, that's for you to evaluate.

Thank you ForeverDad.

Sometimes I worry that my attitude is "bad" and whether I should just be able to change my feelings about the situation. On the other hand I'm aware of my tendency to self-doubt and introject. I'm more and more exhausted and put off by my pwBPD's behaviors.

Your post inspired me to search Amazon for titles related to divorce. I'll find deeper and deeper answers about the truth of divorce in general. My mind's strongly held belief is that staying in an intact family is best. That may be true but I remember as a 9 year old wishing my parents would divorce because the chaos was so bad.

Sometimes I worry that I'm too sensitive and should be able to handle things better and therefore that I add to the problem in a major way. I don't know though. All I can go by is my direct internal experience, and the fact is I'm unhappy and more and more distance with my wife. I don't desire intimacy and sexuality with her anymore


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truthdevotee
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2021, 12:28:15 AM »

I know you a probably just venting. But, I really get this! 
When I realized I needed help I thought, maybe I just need a seperation for a bit to heal and recover... then I would feel intense guilt for even thinking that.
Now, I think the only way for me to have any peace or happiness is to have a permanent break. But...is my path to healing going to hurt my kids even more?
So, I am not any help. I'm just right there with ya.




Thanks Sally  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2021, 06:09:35 AM »

More and more I realize how hard it is to live in a relationship where no real intimacy (truth) can live.

We have really very little to talk about and the hurts are so frequent that I just don't want to be around her 90 to 95% of the time.

Personally, I do not believe this is sustainable over the long term, and still remain healthy yourself.

I used to schedule work travel just to get away.  There was never the ability to share openly/honestly.  Over time, you will become a shell and wear out.

Unless you can find a way to build a healthy life for yourself, you are not able to help your children.  And over time, you will be destroyed as a person and become someone less than the person you want to be.

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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2021, 07:51:13 AM »

My mind's strongly held belief is that staying in an intact family is best. That may be true but I remember as a 9 year old wishing my parents would divorce because the chaos was so bad.

We all arrived here hoping the past wouldn't haunt us in our own families... generational patterns passed on to us.  Possibly it is an aspect of learned dysfunction, that you didn't have the guidance and exposure to grow up learning what a healthy family was and how to choose a healthy partner.  You may have chosen as a spouse someone like your problem parent(s) — acting out — or chosen to be like your more passive parent — appeasing and acquiescing.

Excerpt
In short, you can choose to make the best of a lousy situation, whether you stay with demonstrated improvement, "stay for now" pending improvement or whether you go.

Break it apart to help it be simpler and easier to visualize...
  • Whether you "stay" with demonstrated improvement
  • Whether you "stay for now" pending improvement
  • Whether you "go" to establish your own stable and healthy home for yourself and your children

Right now it's okay to "stay for now" while you educate yourself, learn the tools and skills for better living and communication and better understand your informed options.  But soon you'll perceive with better clarity where your future lies — and how to get there.  Take advantage of our peer support and hard-won collective wisdom with strategies and approaches that usually work versus strategies and approaches that usually don't.

Some here decided there was sufficient behavioral improvement for the family to continue intact.  Others here decided that after years of efforts their family life really wasn't improving, typically even facing worsening conflict, and learned approaches to unwind the marriage or relationship using time-tested strategies.  Absolutely none of us wanted to have to deal with the discord and angst but we had to face the reality of "what is".

By the way, the menu bar above has a Search function that you can search among our multitude of posts.
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2021, 08:33:25 AM »

I think the "desire to forget" is common and perhaps something we learned in childhood and/or poor boundaries with the BPD partner. With my BPD mother, there's a pattern which I call the dry erase board as after an outburst, she feels better and acts kind and lucid, like the person we wish to see- and there's no mention of what happened or any apology or resolution. Also bringing up what happened is futile. It only leads to another dysregulation. One either accepts this situation and goes along with it or leaves- because without a way to resolve this issue, I don't see how change is possible.
It's feels like a cycle that I have repeated with my mother over and over.

But just as you struggle with leaving your marriage, it's a huge struggle to keep a distance from an aging parent. There's a natural tendency to want to help someone you care about, but if that someone is not willing to seek help or accept help, and is continuously abusive -one has to consider what to do.

I have gotten a picture of what my father experienced. While each pwBPD is different, I know this was extremely difficult. My mother's moods and behavior have been central to our lives as a family as we struggle with treating her with kindness and decency while she doesn't treat us that way.  I don't think divorce will change that. What it will do is allow you to create a part of your life separate from this- for you and a space for the children when they are with you. But you will still be in some sort of relationship with her as she is your children's mother.

I can't speak for the road not taken as my parents did not divorce, but now as an adult, I would not blame my father if he did. Family life was chaotic, and she threatened divorce many times. At first, as a younger child, this scared me. As a teen, I started to wish they would, just to stop the conflicts between them. I was naive about the legal aspects of divorce and custody. My own take is to take care of you. (in or out of a relationship )Not taking care of you won't help her, and so, there's no reason to sacrifice your own emotional well being for her sake. Not taking care of you won't help your kids either. It was of no benefit to us to see our mother mistreat our Dad.
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2021, 11:46:08 PM »

Thank you so much yeeter, ForeverDad, Notwendy, for your experience, strength and hope.

I have come to an authentic choice point. After a few days I've calmly making my needs known, and after many painful years of intense chaos and turmoil, I see there is no way forward. I've experienced the situation through and through, and I'm aware that my partner has a deep problem that I can't fix. It has become intolerable. And as I've grown in my awareness of her condition, I've simultaneously grown inwardly in the awareness of what I truly want and need. I've come to realize that my needs and wants to are be honored, because I've slowly become a pained, empty shell.

I've decided to leave after a series of confirmations that this decision is the right one. The last confirmation came this morning, as I was leaving the house to go to work, my pwBPD told me in a deep state of quiet rage (splitting), "you enjoy my pain. you have a part of you that is evil." This appeared to be her final attempt to try to manipulate me into staying and self-doubting. Self-doubting has been my problem all long; not listening to my inward nudges, intuition, sense of knowing what is right and wrong.

I plan to rent a flat close by as soon as possible (by end of July, if possible).

But there is a potential issue here. I am due to start a new job as of September 1st. I am convinced that having my own flat from which to work from home will be the perfect start to work from home. But there is one curveball that I believe could occur - she told me this morning and numerous times in the past, that I should take the boys.

I have a 4 year old and a 2 year old. The 2 year old, naturally is still attached to mummy a lot. But I also have a deep and loving relationship with him. I believe it's within her capacity that I take them with me. And I'm thinking perhaps I should, and I should definitely document evidence of her comments about this and my willingness to be their primary caretaker, in case I ever need to fight for full custody.

The best option might be to secretly get my own flat until our 2 year old is a bit older. Our 4 year old will return to school in September which makes things easier with work. In my own flat, I can also hire a nanny, which I can't do now because expw-BPD doesn't allow anyone in her home.

Fortunately, we're not married. But the house we live in is in her name and so is the car. I need to start setting myself up with a separate identity, and long-term invest in my own assets. For now, I'll rent...

She's in a state of splitting right now and her words might just be threats and a "curveball" to try to make me second guess myself. Deep down, I actually think she desires to be separate from me. It's strange but that's what I feel. I suppose it's like the title of that book "I hate you, don't leave me." She's projecting hatred onto me, and that's why comments like "you must be evil" are coming out of her right now. After years of learning not to take things personally, I'm finally not triggered, but I am aware of the danger of living in an environment like that.
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2021, 11:57:50 PM »

She is a good mum. It's what I like best about her. When she's in a good state, she's a brilliant mum who genuinely cares for her boys. When she's splitting or exhausted, her care naturally becomes less than desirable.

I've heard different thoughts from different people about the impact of a marriage ending on young kids. Some say they take it easier, some say they take it harder.

What would be the approach with a 2 year old and a 4 year old?

I could present my new flat as a place for me to work - partly, this is true. But how to reveal the whole truth? My older son for sure will recognize something else is going on. He's conscious enough to know mummy and daddy don't have a loving and close relationship. He is showered by love by both of us, but is aware of the conflict we have between us.

I would present my new flat with excitement, adventure, and fun. Naturally toddlers find that exciting.

But if she were to suddenly say she can't see her boys anymore (it's possible, but not probable), how would I deal with that situation?

And if she refuses to look after them whilst I need to work, OK - my 4 year old would be at school (unless he's sick), and my 2 year old would be left stranded. I could get a nanny. But it would be painful for him, as his attachment levels to his mum and dad are high.


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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2021, 11:58:35 PM »

.
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2021, 12:35:06 AM »

I plan to rent a flat close by as soon as possible (by end of July, if possible).

But there is a potential issue here. I am due to start a new job as of September 1st. I am convinced that having my own flat from which to work from home will be the perfect start to work from home. But there is one curveball that I believe could occur - she told me this morning and numerous times in the past, that I should take the boys.

I have a 4 year old and a 2 year old. The 2 year old, naturally is still attached to mummy a lot. But I also have a deep and loving relationship with him. I believe it's within her capacity that I take them with me. And I'm thinking perhaps I should, and I should definitely document evidence of her comments about this and my willingness to be their primary caretaker, in case I ever need to fight for full custody.

Many disordered parents — for a variety of reasons more discussion about disordered mothers than fathers — use the children as weapons and manipulation.  Maybe she really does want the burden of parenting off her shoulders.  Or maybe she'll reverse course and suddenly become extraordinarily possessive of them.  Hard to predict, but be prepared whichever way she responds.

When you get a flat, be sure to get one with an extra bedroom for the boys.  At least whatever social services considers adequate.  You don't want their mother to argue your new residence is legally inadequate.

Do not fret over getting daycare or some sort of nanny during work hours.  Just do it.  Odds are their mother will want some level of contact but it might range from 100% to 0%.  Try to get the arrangement documented (recording, text, writing, etc) in case she tries to sabotage your parenting in the future.

Don't leave a child behind.  Not even 'just until he's older'.  That would create a history of your limited parenting and if it ever went to court they would ask about the history of parenting.  The movies such as The Parent Trap (1961) where twins are separated are only that, entertaining movies.  Best not to split the kids unless it risks obstructing your parenting

I'm in another country but in my first session with my custody evaluator he said a large part of his recommendation would be based on the parenting history.  That worried me since she stayed home with our son and I went off to work 5 days a week.  Fortunately he saw me as stable and my stbEx not.  His initial report's conclusion included, "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can."

She is a good mum. It's what I like best about her. When she's in a good state, she's a brilliant mum who genuinely cares for her boys. When she's splitting or exhausted, her care naturally becomes less than desirable.

Be very cautious about stating "she's a good mom when..."  Lots of new members arrive here excusing their spouses that way.  (Yes, it's part of our personality, we prefer to see the positives in people.  But here we have to be realistic.)  She is both, positive and negative.  You can't just minimize problems when the negative is substantial.  Also, right now a lot of her poor conduct and cycling is focused on you.  If you the current easy target are elsewhere in the future, where do you think her cycling will be directed?
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2021, 06:04:43 AM »

Oh my goodness, I have so many thoughts about that comment "you should take the boys" in regards to my own experiences.

Now, I don't know your wife, but if this were my mother, there would be a few different reasons that comes to mind. Note that I am just guessing here- I can't know what your wife is thinking.


1) She's in waif (victim) mode and you are the villain. "that horrible man, he took my children".( forgetting that she told you to take them).

2) She's using the children as connection- if you have the boys, then she may want to come over to see them whenever she wants to. If she has the boys and the two of you are not married- you might just leave altogether. ( you wouldn't do that, it's about the way she may be thinking).

3) She may not really be able to deal with them by herself, or doesn't want to be a caretaker of them on her own.

4) She's dysregulating and is just saying something out of hurt and projecting.

5) It actually is the best situation for the boys and she realizes that.


From my own perspective, if my parents had divorced and I was given the choice, I'd have chosen to live with my father. Your boys are young now, but as they got older, there'd be the possibility she'd play out her triangle drama with them, enlist them as her emotional caretakers. I think what you are saying is that she acts motherly with them, and that the little one is bonded to her. Even if they live with you - if she wants to see them, you can arrange for that.

I am with Forever Dad- don't have this look like abandonment. Arrange for a place for them. You can arrange child care.

She may become inconsistent with her visitations. I do know of a situation where this happened. The father is the more stable parent and he has the kids. The mom (BPD and other issues) visited for a while until she found someone else, has children with someone else. Yes, the kids were upset when their Mom began missing their birthdays. The father documented the inconsistent parenting. He now has sole custody. It's not been an easy road for him as a single father but it has been the best situation for the kids and him. This is just one story I know of, but it's one possibility.
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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2021, 07:51:25 AM »

Its not often that I have strong opinions and clear recommendation on path forward, but if she said you should take the boys:

Take the boys.

Do not even hesitate.  You will figure it out (that is what parenting is - you will adapt, adjust, and figure out a way to make it work).  You can not leave children to fend for themselves with a disordered parent.  Once you take them, you can assess what level of interaction with mom is possible.

This is a no brainer.  (sorry, just my opinion)
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« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2021, 09:34:09 AM »

Do you have witnesses of her saying you should take the kids and go?  Or multiple emails, texts or recordings?

The reason I ask is that if she is just angry and posturing she may insist she never said that.  And how would you prove otherwise?  If it becomes "he-said versus she-said" then you as a father may find that your local social services or family courts will give mothers default credibility.

If you can't get texts or emails stating so, then you can try recording.  Just record quietly, don't make a scene.  The point is to have some level of documentation of whatever you may have to state later on.
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« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2021, 10:00:29 AM »

I agree with documentation. Heresay could be changed to "you kidnapped them".

On a different level I have seen this kind of thing with BPD mother. On one hand, she askes me to help her downsize and take sentimental items I may want. When I try to do that, she claims I am stealing them. If I were to take them and she called the police, then I have no proof she asked me to take them. The "take them, don't take them" is basically the push-pull.

Children- a much larger consideration. I vote with "take the boys" and in addition, have documentation that she said that if possible. My best guess is that once you actually take steps to do that, she would stop you having changed her mind to "he's taking the children from me". A form of the push pull behavior.
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« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2021, 10:25:03 AM »

Yes to all the above. Get documentation of her saying "take the kids", and then move forward with taking them, both of them, with you.

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity. It is not crazy to say that if you don't take it, you will have your parenting impeded and blocked in the future. It happened to DH. His ex told him, as they were separating, that she was fine with him taking the kids. He was still in the FOG and had the same qualms as you, and let them stay with Mom. He has never had anywhere close to equal parenting since then, and it's been 10 years.

Please, please, please, do not let "being nice" or "being fair" or "but the kids need their mom" or "it would break her heart" or anything get in the way of making sure your boys are with you, the stable parent.

Consider that if you pass this up now, you may never have another opportunity to parent equally.

...

Also consider -- if you are designated "primary" or "custodial" parent, there's nothing stopping you, in the far future, from coming up with a different parenting schedule. Sure, the boys may be with you more now, but because you're reasonable, you could potentially agree to something different (more time with Mom) down the road.

She cannot and will not play the same way. If she is designated "primary" or "custodial", she won't play by the same rules as you would. She may use that to weaponize the kids and parenting time against you, and will not see the situation as "playing fair" or "being reasonable for the kids". It becomes a new arena for her to be "on top" and you to be "put in your place".

...

Do whatever it takes to have the kids with you. This door does not stay open forever.
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« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2021, 11:24:35 AM »

Take the boys. Arrange for childcare. Set up your new flat.

The children will have a stable parent in a healthy household.

The children might actually end up getting the "best" of time with their mother, limited though it may be. It would be what she could do in short and manageable periods.
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« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2021, 03:20:30 PM »

Thank you so very much.

I may have historical recordings of her saying this. I will however make sure I'm recording conversations to have a recent proof of the fact.

I appreciate the certainty of the guidance you have all given. I will take the boys.

Yes, she can only manage short bursts.

I believe it's a matter of lack of confidence and energy to look after them. Hence her feeling to allow me to take the boys.

This morning she called me evil. At lunch time, she was subdued. This evening, she sweet and loving. She wrote me this -

[28/07, 19:12] Honey: Did you talk to a nanny already?
[28/07, 19:25] Honey: I am happy to start to refresh a relationship with your family. I said a lot about it to you half an year ago. I think you forgot.
[28/07, 19:27] Honey: I am focusing on forgiveness since I read the book.
[28/07, 19:27] Honey: It helped me to shift my growth in lots of way
[28/07, 19:30] Honey: I wanted you to see my world in order to hear or reflect or help but I Iearnt it doesn't work that way
[28/07, 19:33] Honey: Forgive me for my stage of being at that time and the mess I contribute to. It never was my intention to hurt or cause any pain. I needed to open my eyes which the book helped me in.
[28/07, 19:43] Honey: I love you very much honey. I think of you 3 always ❤️❤️❤️


This is triggering for me. It appears to be her pulling me in. If I think about it objectively, there is no commitment expressed regarding my clearly expressed desires: freedom to connect my boys with family of origin, my desire to have a nanny in the house at least a few hours a week so I can focus on work, etc.

There's no commitment, which is actually what I'm asking for. There's no new actions.

She's using what might be the most powerful tool - a rare expression of humility. But what I'm really seeking is new action. The freedom to be me. The freedom to support us all in new ways. The freedom to allow my boys to be loved by their wider family.

I feel my heart strings pulled and i also see the *forgetting* program playing out. It's the thing in my mind that WANTS me to forget that only those morning she called me evil. To believe that 'what if' she's being truthful and I make a terrible mistake by setting myself up with a new flat.

But I've been through this a few months ago. I thought things would get better, but I still find myself feeling trapped and her continuing with similar patterns.

We were due to go on holiday over the next two weeks. Nothing was ever booked. I wonder if she's just trying to pull me in to secure that I take us all to the beach.

She triggers the inner self doubt. There's even the tendency for my mind to say, what if things really aren't that bad?

I just find it so incredible how my mind is driven to believe her despite being severely emotionally abused for so many years. Why does my mind do this? Why does my mind keep wishing and is so willing to believe that things can suddenly change overnight.

Maybe it comes from childhood... Hoping my parents would be happy. Being happy with the times of peace, only to be disappointed again.

Wow... That feels true...

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« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2021, 04:09:35 PM »

Words and promises mean little, it is the follow through, the actions going forward, which count.  The subsequent actions are what prove whether the words and promises had meaning.

We often speak of the endless FOG we experience.  What is this FOG?  Ponder how much each aspect has in your life and how you can successfully address each one:
FOG = Fear, Obligation, Guilt
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« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2021, 05:45:57 AM »

I look at patterns. Each event is one time but looking at patterns, can you see the push- pull?

While the examples I have posted here are not marital, and the situations are not the same-the patterns are similar.


You also have a pattern, the forgetting. I do this too. The pull to forget is very strong. When I see the "sweet side" the contriteness, the waif persona, I question "did this happen" "was it really my fault". The "pull" aspect is very compelling. I don't exactly know why. But I think seeing a glimpse of what we wish might be is part of it.

But looking closely as you have noticed, there's no real apology. There's no sense of awareness that the behavior affected you and you have been hurt. There's no real attempt to change ( there may be an empty promise). It's more "me me me". I call this the "dry erase board" conversation . "Look, I am good now" . No mention of what happened. And you don't dare bring it up.

For me, looking back at the patterns, it's been "wash, rinse, repeat".

Change is the product of time and work. It isn't instant. The instant turn around is not indicative of real change.

Read my previous post about the push pull. She pushed, you responded, now the pull. But you can also stick to your convictions, knowing this is a pattern of behavior.
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« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2021, 07:02:09 AM »

As mentioned, focused on action.

Words are pretty meaningless.  Give some time to observe action.  And dont put too much hope on a single event. 

A sustained pattern of action over a period of time.  Build from there.

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« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2021, 07:29:42 AM »

Thank you all... really, you are all wonderful. It's amazing how you're willing to share your experience strength and hope to help someone you've never met before... thank you...

I am struggling internally. She's saying she's willing to get a nanny "if" it's "not too stressful for the boys." If? This is the thing... I like to live with a spirit of resourcefulness knowing that we can do ANYTHING and the boys will enjoy it because we think it's great. "Too stressful for the boys" means too stressful for her. Most likely.

And here's the thing, she really wants to go on vacation next week to the beach. She's pushing for it. I wonder if her suddenly agreeable nature is just to secure the vacation, as well of course to avoid the threat of me leaving.

I am looking at a new flat in my area this afternoon.

I'm still so tempted to do it. Even sexually, I've been repressed and suppressed for so long, completely celibate with the exception of periodic (e.g. monthly, bi-monthly, yearly on occasion) sexual relation with my pwBPD. I did this in my devotion and commitment to her, as well as for my own spiritual growth as I used to be unhealthily attached to sexuality e.g. porn use, prior to meeting her.

Imagining myself to be free, feels good. Not to indulge unhealthily, but to experience new things.

I love the nourishment of potential healing practices such as massage, sauna, etc. These things heal me on a deep level, but due to her jealousy I've not done these things. 3 days ago I went for a sauna, and after I felt the lightness of well-being for the first time in many, many years. I feel so trapped in my relationship with her, due to her jealousy.

I feel the joy of freedom in the idea of going to my own place and not being so deeply committed to her sexually. Because there's no room for me to experience anything else, even my own self-pleasure, due to my commitment to her and my fear of doing something that is immoral somehow. I know these are my own issues and I'm working with two therapists on this currently.

But the point is... will I have increased time to live healthily? to do sport? it's not guaranteed... her response is too wishy washy about the support from a nanny. and I just realized she's ignored my request that I have the freedom to connect my boys with my family of origins through video calls whenever they feel to do so... she's not responding to that.

Sorry, I'm just reflecting whilst I write.

I see the push pull, I see the subtle way she's trying to stay in control, show a certain level of commitment and promise. She has however promised to visit england to see my family of origin at Christmas. She has actually commited to that.

So yes... I see the long-term, push-pull. I see her changeable ways, one hour calling me evil, another hour subdued. . . last time that it happened that I nearly left, she got subdued for months, a little bit more sweet... but ultimately nothing changed... she didn't allow the nanny... I continued to fall into that pattern of feeling trapped and not being able to be myself ...


I'll go see this flat at 4pm. Maybe, from the long-term pattern perspective, what she says right now is completely irrelevant. Whatever promises she makes shouldn't be a game-changer in terms of me staying or going. It's scary but I think I need to follow the feeling inside me to rent a place at least for 6 months or one year. I am certain that this action will provide me more freedom. She'll be extremely angry about the money I spend on this though... and I just noticed my fear about that... wow...
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« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2021, 07:33:39 AM »

I even feel scared to reveal to her my sauna trip or my desire to experience the healing therapy of massage.

I wonder if that fear is my own issue, or if that fear is actually a sign that I just don't feel safe to express myself on that level with her, to trust that she won't judge me, or use it against me one day in anger that I've cheated on her by doing these things or something.

I think I've come to a choice point where I'm so exhausted by the same patterns being in place for so long, that I'm ready to jump out. The attraction of being able to express and be myself and experience new things such as healthy massage and sauna and other therpeutic healing practices is so strong. I feel I'd be freer and happier and more joyful if I were to step away from her... sad to say but true.

She also offered for the first time in years just now to ask her parents to look after the boys this weekend so that her and I can have some alone time together...

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« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2021, 07:34:26 AM »

As mentioned, focused on action.

Words are pretty meaningless.  Give some time to observe action.  And dont put too much hope on a single event. 

A sustained pattern of action over a period of time.  Build from there.



Thanks. ok. Focusing on action not words or promises...
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« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2021, 08:59:47 AM »

You have done a lot of vacations with her. She seems to like being taken on vacation. Great, but what about you, what do you want?

So when does the indulgence stop?
Does is resolve anything?



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« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2021, 09:55:19 AM »

I do want the vacation for the boys.

But I think we have too many. And it's because I'm catering to her still in such a big way.

I feel the depths of my hurt, no crying or anything. Just an exhaustion. Maybe even a complete unwillingness to risk my heart and emotions any further.

I still feel she's glazing over and not being specific enough about her willingness to hear me.

I don't want to fight anymore to be myself.

I just saw the flat. With the exception of no furniture. It's beautiful. Just been completely renovated. A little bit on the pricey side, but I want to feel great in my new place. Perfect location. Perfect for home office. Perfect... I think I want it =(

=( because I never thought I would do it.

I feel it will protect my new job too. Help me to keep a clear mind to perform at my best when I start the new job September 1st and will have 3 months probation.

I think she doesn't think I'll do it. Not that this matters.

I can start paying from September 1st on 1 year contract. I think that is great and rare, a 1 year contract.

I told them I will confirm by 2pm tomorrow.

I could move my things gradually, and even sleep nights there during August. It would be the perfect arrangement.


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« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2021, 11:18:48 AM »

FYI - what some pwBPD have done when they sensed their partner was distancing was to expand the bond... by having a baby or another baby.  Imagine if that were to happen, would it be easier or harder to continue with plans to separate?  Yeah, I figured so.

Ponder how not to risk another child in this decision time.  You can't trust her not to sabotage birth control.  All it takes is one "oops, I forgot!"
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« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2021, 11:33:59 AM »

Thank you ForeverDad

I've decided.

I'm aiming to rent from August 1st.

I will have a two week vacation. It's perfect timing.

I think it will hit hard for her. She won't expect it.

Therefore it's perfect timing to take the boys and give her the time to process it.

One of my intuitive nudges was that she asked for a vacation worth 3x the flat rent.

The home is perfect. I'm ready.
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« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2021, 01:28:51 PM »

You deserve to have a secure place for yourself and the boys, where you can work and also where you can have fun with your children without worry.

One of the biggest hurdles you’ll need to overcome is your desire for her approval. Once you realize that you’ll never get that on an ongoing basis, you will be a lot freer.

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« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2021, 02:14:33 PM »

You deserve to have a secure place for yourself and the boys, where you can work and also where you can have fun with your children without worry.

One of the biggest hurdles you’ll need to overcome is your desire for her approval. Once you realize that you’ll never get that on an ongoing basis, you will be a lot freer.

Thanks Cat.

I'll feel so free. It would be deeply healing to have a safe and sacred place. Home.

It's really interesting what you said about approval. I've never thought about it in this way.
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« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2021, 03:12:57 PM »


Children- a much larger consideration. I vote with "take the boys" and in addition, have documentation that she said that if possible. My best guess is that once you actually take steps to do that, she would stop you having changed her mind to "he's taking the children from me". A form of the push pull behavior.

Yeah, this was her behaviour in the past. Complete 180 degree turns and instability. She would tell me that she can't come with us on a trip, and a few days later blame me for taking her kids away.

It is as if she's totally forgotten that I mentioned the possibility of me renting somewhere only a few days ago. I think, like my tendency to forget, she may be somewhat in denial. I think it will come as a big shock. I can't handle many more days with her. If the landlord agrees to me renting from August onwards, I could move in on Sunday. The flat has everything except sofa, beds and toys. Wouldn't take long to sort that out but I sense I shouldn't take the boys there until those things are ready. Everything else is there, fridge, oven, etc. Beautifully renovated flat i would be happy to live and work in.

When I tell her that I have actually rented, I need to be prepared with my approach. This means ready to record evidence of all our conversations from that point onwards. I don't know whether her initial response will be delayed or immediate, angry or depressed, etc.

The boys are attached to her as well as me. There are real benefits that she will likely understand in me having this space, such as home office, not needing to travel to work, saved time for me to help with childcare. On the other hand, it may hit hard that I've actually made the step due to our relationship.

Whatever her response, I'll be ready to continuously document evidence. I'm not sure when exactly to introduce the boys to their new home. It would depend on her initial response. If she says take them, I will do it. If she says they stay with her, I expect she wouldn't block me from seeing them, because she has no source of help except me.

I would expect that her feelings will continuously shift and there might be inconsistency. On the other hand, she might go ice cold and repress all emotion, with the realization that I've made a step that she can't manipulate or change... Signing of a 1 year contract. It is possible that in realizing I'm beyond seekimg approval, that she turns tough and ice cold.
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« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2021, 06:40:16 PM »

I would not take the vacation. It gives a mixed signal to her. "I am moving out" doesn't fit with "we are taking a holiday together". It's a fuzzy boundary and confusing to her, even misleading.

And her behavior may confuse you as she may be on her best behavior. I would also pay close attention to Forever Dad's post. You are quite vulnerable to affection at the moment and one thing can lead to another. I won't elaborate. You know where babies come from.

You can later take a fun holiday just you and the boys.
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« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2021, 01:03:34 AM »

I would not take the vacation. It gives a mixed signal to her. "I am moving out" doesn't fit with "we are taking a holiday together". It's a fuzzy boundary and confusing to her, even misleading.

And her behavior may confuse you as she may be on her best behavior. I would also pay close attention to Forever Dad's post. You are quite vulnerable to affection at the moment and one thing can lead to another. I won't elaborate. You know where babies come from.

You can later take a fun holiday just you and the boys.

Thanks Notwendy. The way you have written this has strengthened my awareness a lot. To recognise that I'm vulnerable to affection is so true, and so eye opening that this is what is actually happening to me. It's my naivety and false hope due to the trauma of my childhood.

That her behaviour may confuse me as she may be on her best behaviour. It's hard to express how eye opening this is. It's like the truth has suddenly exploded into my awareness. This is what is happening and why I'm so hurt and hit by doubt sometimes. It's so confusing. I think confusing was one of the first words i used in this thread. That confusion is really damaging to the psyche. And it must be trauma related from childhood. I'm realising that the influence of trauma is subtle and invisible, but strong in my mind and influences all my decision making.

Yeah, I don't want the vacation. The fact that it was the cost of three months rent was in my mind a trigger. I thought "well, here she is willing to spend this money without any concern about whether I even want the holiday, and I could use the same money to pay for just over 3 months rent..." That was a big shift for me to think I could save on this holiday and pay 1/4 of the yearly contract.

I'll hear this morning whether the landlord accepts or not...

If he does, I'll start by contacting a nanny that I spotted in the past that was willing to help at our place of residence. Unfortunately, my ex-pwBPD didn't want her... I think due to jealousy and also not wanting someone in the house. If she's available, it would be great too.

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« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2021, 01:12:03 AM »

Just a note about the potential for another baby as she increases her affections.

My ex-pwBPD for a long time over the years was raging and abusing me on a continuous basis. This really impacted her sex drive I'm sure. Due to two pregnancies also, we went for very long periods without any sexual relationship.

I was celibate through all this time. I don't know if that was healthy or not. However, I wonder if it has added a lot of stress to my life. Also because I was celibate as a way to express my devotion to her. I wouldn't engage in any sexuality unless it was shared with her. I also welcomed this as a spiritual practice, as I used to over-indulge in this aspect of my life in my teens and 20s.

Over the last 4 months, I became more and more aware of my desire to avoid physical contact with her. This happened within me on an emotional level. I actually shared this with her vulnerably the last time I nearly left the house (around 3 months ago), and it definitely hit her and made her think. I didn't do this to control her, I did it with a newfound desire to go within myself and find what is true for me, emotionally. Despite that, things returned to the same pattern.

I was helped throughout the celibacy period with medications (SSRI and a stimulant for ADHD). I'm now seeing a therapist who will help me taper off the medications, gradually, bit by bit.

So, the risk of us ever having sex again is extremely low, because I just don't feel it. For the first time in my life, it would feel dishonest. I say for the first time, because I used to be completely unaware of the emotional level of relationship and the need for compatibility between partners. That sounds crazy, but it's true since I didn't have a healthy relationship modelled to me in childhood, and no one taught me how important it is to find a new partner.

So I come out of all of this with grazes, but blessed by spiritual growth. I'm now aware that choosing a partner and engaging in sexual relations is extremely important. I have a valuable lesson to teach the boys: sexual integrity as well as the conscious choosing of how and when to engage in sexual experiences and relationships, as well how to recognize partners that may be compatible (a LOT for me to learn in this regard, over the next few years. I suppose I'm just at the beginning of this journey, having learned through and through what a relationship shouldn't look like). In the past, I would get together with whomever, not really thinking about compatibility and emotional realities. Hence, I got burned over this time, and didn't have the strength to dig myself out despite so many alarm bells going off within me in the first few months of our relationship.
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« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2021, 05:59:27 AM »

I think a main point is that going on a nice holiday together at the same time as moving out sends confusing mixed messages. It's not a firm boundary. I think it's also important to recognize your own vulnerabilities and have boundaries due to that. Low possibility isn't the same as zero. If you are going to be separated then a clear boundary includes physical- not spending a lot of time together, not spending night time together ( when boys are asleep). This is for your sake and also for hers. It would send a mixed message to her.

Yes, the expensive vacations. Money is also a common issue too with some BPD relationships.
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« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2021, 06:55:39 AM »

I think a main point is that going on a nice holiday together at the same time as moving out sends confusing mixed messages. It's not a firm boundary. I think it's also important to recognize your own vulnerabilities and have boundaries due to that. Low possibility isn't the same as zero. If you are going to be separated then a clear boundary includes physical- not spending a lot of time together, not spending night time together ( when boys are asleep). This is for your sake and also for hers. It would send a mixed message to her.

Yes, the expensive vacations. Money is also a common issue too with some BPD relationships.

Thanks, Notwendy.

Wow... it's amazing because I feel that even though I'm moving (if approved already by landlord), I'm unsure about the boundaries. I need to be decisive about where I will sleep, for example. Because I"m still so under control and lacking self-trust and strength and fear of her disapproval, she still has more ability to shape things then I want.

I can see that this fuzziness in terms of boundaries will send mix messages.
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« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2021, 06:57:14 AM »

I need to go deeper and listen if I'm truly open to the possibility of us getting back together in the long term. It could be that even this idea is naive, and only a reflection of the sadness of the family not staying "intact" (not that it ever was "intact"). I need to think carefully how to communicate what is happening.

I also need to think carefully exactly how to provide support.
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« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2021, 07:21:48 AM »

The owner of the flat is considering another person who can rent for 4 years.

Maybe I should offer 1.5 years instead of 1 year, to increase likelihood of me being chosen.
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« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2021, 07:27:38 AM »

Boundaries are personal, and something you decide on. If a separation is what you want, either temporary or not, just be clear what your boundaries are. Inconsistent boundaries send a mixed signal and are confusing.

I have seen members on this even divorce and then resume a physical relationship, or something that is off/on. None of us are here to tell someone what to do, or not to do, but just to be aware that boundaries are hard to maintain and to do that, be clear about what yours are. The other message is to know what boundary you are able to maintain. Having a boundary that is constantly broken sends the message that your boundary is meaningless.

Know that you are human and protect your boundaries. If someone commits to a healthy diet, if they really want to stick to that, then they should not go into a candy store.

Consider what boundaries ( boundaries are on you, not something you make her do) and what you are able to maintain. Be honest about the ones you can't. Decide what steps to take to ensure you keep yours. Someone on a healthy diet might choose to not keep any sweets in the house.

In this context you can see that if you decide on a trial separation, then go on a lovely holiday together, the boundary of wanting a separation is inconsistent and fuzzy. Like someone is on a diet and yet buys a box of sweets.

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« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2021, 02:48:08 AM »

Boundaries are personal, and something you decide on. If a separation is what you want, either temporary or not, just be clear what your boundaries are. Inconsistent boundaries send a mixed signal and are confusing.

I have seen members on this even divorce and then resume a physical relationship, or something that is off/on. None of us are here to tell someone what to do, or not to do, but just to be aware that boundaries are hard to maintain and to do that, be clear about what yours are. The other message is to know what boundary you are able to maintain. Having a boundary that is constantly broken sends the message that your boundary is meaningless.

Know that you are human and protect your boundaries. If someone commits to a healthy diet, if they really want to stick to that, then they should not go into a candy store.

Consider what boundaries ( boundaries are on you, not something you make her do) and what you are able to maintain. Be honest about the ones you can't. Decide what steps to take to ensure you keep yours. Someone on a healthy diet might choose to not keep any sweets in the house.

In this context you can see that if you decide on a trial separation, then go on a lovely holiday together, the boundary of wanting a separation is inconsistent and fuzzy. Like someone is on a diet and yet buys a box of sweets.




Thanks Notwendy. I just drafted some thoughts about how this might work. I am not yet confirmed 100% for the house, but will hear today if I can have the keys by tomorrow.

Here are my thoughts (anybody please do feel free to offer your guidance):

The primary purpose is not home office. Don’t frame it this way.
The primary purpose is a trial separation.
This means time for us both to do what we need, with the added support of a nanny at my place of residence.
To have sustained time apart to reflect on what we need and want.
During this time, we won’t have sex with another person. But we can create new friendships, meet new people, have new experiences e.g. therapies, well-being, etc.
I will work from home most of the time, to reduce travel.
She needs to get a debit card and stop relying on me to give her cash (she lost hers a few months ago and never got a new one)
She needs to shop and cook and clean in her home
I need to shop and cook and clean in mine
We can meet for dates periodically
I would welcome her to start considering going back to work, to reflect on what her goals are now that the boys are 4 and 2 years old
Since we sleep separately with each boy in a separate room, I will continue to support for the time-being at bedtimes in their current home
If they are at my home for bedtime, (probably not until October), I will do bedtime by myself
During working days, I will take them out on trips in the late afternoon/evening. I am not sure in this regard if she should be welcome to come on trips too, the reason is because I know the boys enjoy us all being together…
I would welcome use of the car, which she is the owner of, however for which I have paid all petrol and all insurance on since we got it and for which I continue to pay insurance. Additionally, I have driven about 6000km on the car and she’s driven about 30km.
If she prefers me not to use “her car,” I would get my own asap.



On another topic, I just had a great moment with my older son which brings up a question (he is 4). He was in a tantrum about the size of his piece of bread, partly due to dehydration when he woke up because of the heat at the lake yesterday evening.

After a while of waiting to see if he will calm by himself, whilst holding him in a peaceful ball of light in my mind, he hadn't calmed down yet. The peaceful ball visualization also helped me to stay regulated.

I lovingly and strongly picked him up, took him to another room and let him know that I will need to hold him until he stops. After a few seconds, I let him go and told him I'll count to three, and he needs to calm down by himself or I'll hold him again.

It was as if a gentle field of peace descended upon us. Even our younger boy 2 years old, joined to feel what is happening.

As soon as we got to 3, those emotions started to arise again. I encouraged him how great he's doing, and we're going to go to 10.

Again, he was peaceful until 10, and the emotions started to arise again. And I said, let's count to 5. Again, he calmed. And at that point he was open to listen. I said this is your next birthday, 5 years old, and what you've just done is amazing, you are now a big boy, you just grew up. We learned the words emotional regulation (the younger one did too and learned through the whole experience). We talked about how what he just did is like a 10 year old boy! (slight exageration, but only for the purpose of lifting him up).

The question that is brought up is that my ex-pwBPD won't do this. She allows him to pull on her arm, shout and scream, and she rather tries to pursuade him out of it or gets angry in return. She has a gentle approach in general, most of the time, and is very patient with their emotions, but still, there's no real boundary setting.

I felt that she was listening in to the whole ordeal, and after she asked if that was healthy. We talked about the limbic system, emotional regulation through the pre-frontal cortex, and why counting to 10 probably had a beneficial effect. Talked about the middle path between repression and expression (she's a believer in expression, as you can imagine with BPD), resulting in an adult in balance between the emotional worlds and world of self-control and awareness.

Question is... would I be doing the boys a disservice by leaving them alone with her?
I ask this tentatively, because I know ultimately the reason I'm choosing to do the trial separation is due to my periodic intense confusion and emotional pain. I could be a much better version of myself by being alone for a while, which is ALSO important for the boys.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 02:54:28 AM by truthdevotee » Logged
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« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2021, 02:57:55 AM »

Note:

ex-pwBPD continues to speak of the holiday, what our plans will be. The Italy thing fell through, which I'm happy about (I wouldn't have gone anyway). Now she's speaking of trip in the car and camping.

I'm waiting to hear from the owner this morning as, if he says yes, I have the flat by tomorrow.

If he doesn't say yes, then I'm stuck for another month. In which case, I'd probably prefer to do the driving/camping thing maybe heading to a neighbouring European country.

For now I'm just glazing over when she talks about "what's our plan?"

She's very agreeable the last 2 days. This is of course confusing to me. All the old doubts come up. "Oh, what if she's like this all the time and I'm just making a big deal?" Etc. Etc. Etc. I'm aware now that I'm very vulnerable to this, and it doesn't indicate a long-term pattern change.
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« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2021, 05:18:50 AM »

I think the list is a good start - to give you something to think about- but keep in mind the boundaries are for you, not her. You have no control over her, but you do have control over how you respond to her.

Here are your "I" boundaries:

The primary purpose is not home office. I will not frame it this way.
The primary purpose is a trial separation.
This means time for me to do what I need, with the added support of a nanny at my place of residence.
To have sustained time apart to reflect on what I need and want.

I will work from home most of the time, to reduce travel.

I need to shop and cook and clean in mine

I would welcome her to start considering going back to work, to reflect on what her goals are now that the boys are 4 and 2 years old
Since we sleep separately with each boy in a separate room, I will continue to support for the time-being at bedtimes in their current home
If they are at my home for bedtime, (probably not until October), I will do bedtime by myself
During working days, I will take them out on trips in the late afternoon/evening.
I would welcome use of the car, which she is the owner of, however for which I have paid all petrol and all insurance on since we got it and for which I continue to pay insurance. Additionally, I have driven about 6000km on the car and she’s driven about 30km.
If she prefers me not to use “her car,” I would get my own asap.

The we and her statements are not boundaries, they are wishes but not boundaries. Your boundaries are about you, so frame them this way:


During this time, I won’t have sex with another person. But I can create new friendships, meet new people, have new experiences e.g. therapies, well-being, etc.  If she has sex with someone, I would respond by ________________( if you even knew about it)


She needs to get a debit card and stop relying on me to give her cash (she lost hers a few months ago and never got a new one)  ( she needs to do this, this is not a boundary- but I would be cautious about her having complete access- she could drain the account- you can't control how much she takes) Instead " I will set up a joint bank account and put a set amount of money in it per week and issue her a debit card"

She needs to shop and cook and clean in her home ( she will have to figure that out herself)

I will invite her on some outings with the boys but some of our outings will be just me and the boys (the reason is because I know the boys enjoy us all being together)


We can meet for dates periodically- fuzzy- this seems romantic. How about just sticking to outings with the boys. If you need to discuss something just the two of you, I suggest a coffee place- a quiet corner, as she's less likely to blow up in public. Another suggesting could be in a therapists office with someone to help you communicate. A romantic dinner date may send a confusing message unless you are ready to get back together.
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« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2021, 05:28:52 AM »

On the child tantrum. I think being calm around the boys is good, - this is a normal stage of development as they learn emotional regulation. The important part is the adult's ability to regulate their emotion and the visualization for you works to do that- so good. Letting him calm down on his own is good.

I don't think your wife's response to the tantrum isn't ideal but it would be a stretch to consider it child abuse unless the anger included verbal abuse and yelling. I wonder if the two of you attending parenting classes might help. As to not being alone with her, it's more the whole picture than a single tantrum that would lead to that decision.
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« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2021, 05:33:36 AM »

Thank you so much for this help. It's so incredible.

Don't have time to reply in detail now. Will do so later. Just want to thank you.

Still waiting to hear about the house.
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« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2021, 07:13:35 AM »

During this time, I won’t have sex with another person. But I can create new friendships, meet new people, have new experiences e.g. therapies, well-being, etc.



Be careful with this one. It sounds a lot like- "during this time, I won't eat any sweets but I will walk by the sweet shop, smell the baking cookies, walk in, look at them, maybe buy one, but no, I won't eat one"

Or an alcoholic- " I can go in the wine shop, hold the glass of wine,  but I won't take a drink"

It is said if you jump into a new relationship before resolving your part in the current or old one, you risk repeating your issues with someone else. It's also an escape from your own feelings. My advice to you is to set another boundary such as
avoiding friendships with any women, Yes, have a support system, see your male friends, therapists, but know you are very vulnerable and set some strong boundaries so you don't find yourself in difficult to resist situation.
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« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2021, 07:40:02 AM »

Thanks a lot Notwendy. I have lots to say. Will get back later on this.

Unfortunately I was just informed that the other family sent confirmation of payment. They're supposed to sign contract next Thursday. Long time. I'll have to wait.

I think I need to take them on holiday. My ex doesn't know what's going on behind the scenes.
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« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2021, 08:09:06 AM »

I'll need to keep looking.

My ex doesn't know what's going on behind the scenes.

I'm avoiding physical contact.

I think the best way forward is the vacation and then organising a flat to rent from September.

Is possible that the current family won't follow through. I'll know next Thursday. But I expect they will follow through.
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« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2021, 10:24:13 AM »

You have momentum going now...don't stop now.
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« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2021, 11:22:11 AM »

You have momentum going now...don't stop now.

It hit me quite hard.

I am aware she's ramping up the sweetness. In part cos she needs me for the holiday. Perhaps because she knows I'm edging away. For the first time ever, she offered to call my family today.

It's as if it's over for me. It's as if I've spent all the chances I gave her. In some strange way I'm scared that she'd now improve, angry at the idea of all the suffering I've been through. I see the element of blame inside me. Letting that go. All this occurs in silence within me. Best way is silence. Its the only way I can stay true to myself.

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« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2021, 11:28:59 AM »

I suppose it hit hard as I had prepared well. Even by composing the message in advance. I must have formed an unconscious attachment to the idea of it working out by August 1st.

I don't feel to be touched by her or to touch her. I can see that she's showing her body around the house in a way, it feels, to see if I'll notice. I don't want to notice. I don't feel it anymore.
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« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2021, 05:36:05 PM »

What she is doing is referred to as a Hail Mary Pass, an American idiom that I need to define here as making a play out of desperation that has a very slim chance of success.  https://grammarist.com/idiom/hail-mary-play-or-hail-mary-pass/

She undoubtedly has noticed your increasing independence and wants to rein you back into control.

As others have mentioned, it’s likely that she will try the getting pregnant strategy, should you be tempted.
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« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2021, 01:05:18 AM »

What she is doing is referred to as a Hail Mary Pass, an American idiom that I need to define here as making a play out of desperation that has a very slim chance of success.  https://grammarist.com/idiom/hail-mary-play-or-hail-mary-pass/

She undoubtedly has noticed your increasing independence and wants to rein you back into control.

As others have mentioned, it’s likely that she will try the getting pregnant strategy, should you be tempted.

Thank you Cat. I hadn't heard that term before. Sounds very true.

I won't engage in any sexual activity with her. I'll be wary of any temptation arising within me over the next month.

I decided to take them on this holiday. A cheaper one in which we will use the car.

I'm not a big fan of driving next to her, but things have improved, as she knows now any time I feel even minor anxiety, I stop the car. Thus, she knows she needs good self control in the car (she hates stopping, itchy to arrive at the destination. Hence she's quiet).

The holiday will avoid transparency about my plan. The boys will grow from it. I will have more freedom to be alone e.g. At the beach, etc. She will be more peaceful and happy.

I need to be more open and friendly than I was yesterday. I was hit by the fact the house didn't work out. From today on, at least more openness, to avoid her feeling that I'm too independent.

Ill avoid all physical touch, which she will notice, but I can't pretend I want it or am open to it.

Only downside, I will not be able to visit flats over the next two weeks. I'll have to use the latter two weeks of August. My older son will return to school then, too. I plan to try get my younger son two days at a private kindergarten, as he's stuck at home with her and he's not growing from it
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« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2021, 01:35:52 AM »

One of my main worries about the next month is that I might get caught up again.

I don't know if this represents a lack of openness on my side to see things work out, or a feeling of just not wanting to be with her anymore.

Should I be more assertive about the things I want this month? E. G. Connecting with family of origin on video calls?
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« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2021, 11:16:52 AM »

If you are really wanting to get a good overview of whether or not she is trying to change, call your family and notice how she responds.
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« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2021, 12:53:50 PM »

Thanks Cat.

Somehow, imagining calling them, with her, it brings up pain for me. I don't like that, to be myself, or to live freely, I've had to expend so much effort over so many years. It's as if she is begrudgingly following along now. Quietly. That's a step forward, a willingness on her part to change. But there are so many other things -

1. She's not willing to share the ownership on our flat, despite all my money pouring in for so many years

2. There's nothing off limits when she's splitting, name calling, telling me not to use 'her car' despite that I drive all miles, pay all petrol and insurance, etc. Dishonesty, lying, etc. No self honesty.

3. I can't trust her proper support

4. The block to getting a nanny's support is still high. Would be very hard to make happen. Ultimately the lack of nanny support causes her exhaustion, which comes onto me, increases her stress and splitting, impacts my job, etc. Starting new job September 1st

5. Everything from conversation, to decision making, to speed of taking action, etc. Is so different between us. I find this aspect more and more intolerable

6. She agrees to visit my family of origin at Christmas the last time I nearly left. I said we are going and if she doesn't come or she blocks me from taking the boys, I'll go alone

7. Money. Everything is questioned, checked, etc. and I feel trapped despite being more and more assertive in following my heart

8. I don't want to have sex with her anymore. But if this a lack of forgiveness on my part?

9. She still does not tell me how much money she has in her bank account, despite me giving everything to her for many years

10. I still have my WhatsApp blocked because she can't be trusted to read messages sent to me by my family of origin without dysregulating. She has no interest in my sisters. With my mom and dad she is a bit softer

I write all this to become conscious of all the reasons I would choose to leave. There are many many more things that have happened but which are dormant or perhaps have disappeared. I don't know.

Somehow I'm scared to give her more chances, because I'm angry that I have to go to such extremes to be heard.

I want to feel comfortable calling my family of origin at home with her there or not (I always communicate I prefer her there) with the boys on video call. I've asked for this since my first son was born. It's as if there is still an invisible wall I would have to break through with much effort. Perhaps in part, my need to take a risk and face my fear. Yesterday she offered we call my parents and my sister. That was progress.

I think given what's happening, my growing independence, she's more amenable and making changes. But I dislike that I have to make do much effort to be heard on simple things that don't need to be discussed. Like who I call and when, and whether I'm 'allowed' to include the boys.

I feel nervous calling them around her, because I know she's listening in. For the first time since my sister's children were born, 6 years ago, I sent a gift. I didn't ask permission. Just sent it. I was not 'allowed' in the past, so I just did it knowing that to make changes I can't wait for her. It took me a few days to pluck up the courage to share the video my sister she her daughter sent us to say thanks. Her response was in essence, what about me?

I think the purpose of this post is, perhaps there's so much I'm unhappy about, that the change wouldn't be quick enough. I want to live my life happily. With her by my side, it's not enjoyable. She appears to be shifting, slowly, gradually over the years, but... I've in the last week gotten excited about freedom. It was eye opening how sad I felt about the house not working out.

So it's as if I'm tired of trying and giving her chances. So I don't know if I want to call them with her any more. But does this sound like I'm lacking an open heart and forgiveness? Open heartedness and forgiveness are my values, so I would want that. It's just I'm exhausted and sad and can just forgive her from a distance perhaps.

Ultimately I suppose it comes down to this question -

Do I, and will I, any time soon, feel like a happy equal partner to her, even if she allows me to call my family of origin and send gifts to them, without complaining?

Not now and I don't think so any time soon...

Am I happy next to her? No...

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« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2021, 01:16:58 PM »

I see two possibilities...

1) She is trying to change. However, the change is slow and not to the point your marriage could be called equal. The financials are seriously out of order. Without concentrated therapy on her part and boundaries on your part, she may never achieve the level of change you need.

2) She is appearing to make changes, because she wanted to go on vacation again, and because she we need you are withdraeing, and this raises her anxiety. So she will "behave" until she feels you are under her control again.

Time will tell.
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« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2021, 02:16:45 PM »

I see two possibilities...

1) She is trying to change. However, the change is slow and not to the point your marriage could be called equal. The financials are seriously out of order. Without concentrated therapy on her part and boundaries on your part, she may never achieve the level of change you need.

2) She is appearing to make changes, because she wanted to go on vacation again, and because she we need you are withdraeing, and this raises her anxiety. So she will "behave" until she feels you are under her control again.

Time will tell.


Thank you so much for the clarity your post brings!

My intuition based on the history of the relationship is that number 2 is operating at the highest degree at this moment, and number 1 is simultaneously temporarily accelerated too. Number 1 is a true intention in her life at a soul level, there is a sincere Light and spark of interest in growth and not wanting to past patterns into her kids, however, this spark is most of the time very dim and temporarily increases its flame when things are scary for her e.g. the threat of me leaving, her fear of cancer, etc. When the flame increases she reads a bit about growth.

Point 1 gives me much clarity. Yes, it's very slow, and that's why I'm not happy and fulfilled. And the finances feel so unfair. I think, by leaving, the likelihood of her entering therapy is higher than if I stay.
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« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2021, 03:08:17 PM »

The financial arrangement you have puts you in a precarious situation. You invest your time and money but have no ownership of either a place to live or a car. At this point you may wish to consider saving for ownership of something yourself in time.

Ownership is power. If she owns the house and car, she has power over you.

"1 is her true intention at a soul level" but you are not dealing with just a pure soul right now. She's a soul in a body that is in the physical world right now and this is what you are dealing with- her behaviors. Intentions are hard to guess at. While you certainly don't wish to create harm to her, you also don't have to enable her to cause harm to you.
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« Reply #61 on: August 01, 2021, 03:36:48 PM »

The financial arrangement you have puts you in a precarious situation. You invest your time and money but have no ownership of either a place to live or a car. At this point you may wish to consider saving for ownership of something yourself in time.

Ownership is power. If she owns the house and car, she has power over you.

"1 is her true intention at a soul level" but you are not dealing with just a pure soul right now. She's a soul in a body that is in the physical world right now and this is what you are dealing with- her behaviors. Intentions are hard to guess at. While you certainly don't wish to create harm to her, you also don't have to enable her to cause harm to you.


Yeah. I had strong feelings in the beginning to rent somewhere together, rather than rely on her dad's money to buy us a place. Same with the car, I wanted to get one for us, but she wanted a hand me down within her family.

Both have been used to control me in the past. That's why I have never felt like the home we live in is my home. It hasn't felt like a safe and sacred place which is what home should be.

She's pushed me to give her large amounts of money in the past and I submitted. Over the last 3 years, with help from a sponsor, I learned not to.

I think renting my own place will send a strong signal of my freedom and independence. First of all, she will judge me because I would be spending money on monthly rent. By me ignoring that judgment she will see that she can't control all my finances. She'll see that she needs to go back to work.

In my own place I'll feel wonderful. Free. Home.
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« Reply #62 on: August 01, 2021, 06:42:54 PM »

Truthdevotee, I may be saying some of what others have said here too, but I'll chime in.

During this time when she seems to be on good behavior, make a point to yourself to remain aware and to focus on your needs and your boundaries. Otherwise it can be easy to fall back into the belief that "it's finally getting better." I won't attempt to say whether it truly will or won't get better, but it seems you have been through that cycle many times before, so it's fair to assume that it would continue to happen.

Remaining aware and focusing on your needs will help to keep you on the path that you choose for yourself.

It will also help you to remain more grounded and less thrown off balance if (or more likely when) she goes back to doing any of her old behaviors. You won't be able to predict when she will do this, but it will be less of a surprise to you when she does. My uBPDw tends to love vacations and holidays. But they are also quite triggering for her. When I used to think of it rationally (we're going on vacation, she loves these, what could go wrong?), her dysregulation would catch me off guard and throw me far off balance. Recognizing the pattern instead, it's nowhere near as surprising, which helps me to keep myself on the path I want and helps me be faster at protecting our D10 (daughter) from rages against her.
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« Reply #63 on: August 02, 2021, 05:46:43 AM »

I think renting my own place will send a strong signal of my freedom and independence. First of all, she will judge me because I would be spending money on monthly rent. By me ignoring that judgment she will see that she can't control all my finances. She'll see that she needs to go back to work.


Be careful of your intentions. To stay away from co-dependency- it's important to "act on yourself" not her. These statements sound like "if I do X, she will do "Y" as if your actions will somehow be able to have a specific effect on her. We are not able to control anybody but ourselves. Trying to change her by changing you isn't effective. Let's rewrite this:

I think renting my own place will send a strong signal to me of my freedom and independence.  If she judges me because I would be spending money on monthly rent, my response will be to ignore that and remain in control all my finances. I am not in control of how she responds but I am in control of how I respond.

Thinking she will somehow see that she needs to go back to work is a bit of wishful thinking. More likely, there could be an extinction burst of behavior to return things to how they have been. The focus needs to be on how you can handle this. Also  a quick cut off of funding may not be a manageable plan. Even if she did go back to work, it takes time to apply, interview, and this is a big change in behavior. that may not be achievable immediately. But you do need control of the money you make. Some sort of allowance with a time limit ( if you are splitting up) "I will send x per month for 3 months". You may need to consult a lawyer to determine this- you are not legally married but I don't know if you have obligations due to having children with her. The plan you have is not acceptable to you but a change isn't likely to be acceptable to her. Having some plan in place, and support from a professional may help you decide on a boundary that doesn't get you into legal problems.
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« Reply #64 on: August 02, 2021, 01:07:29 PM »

Truthdevotee, I may be saying some of what others have said here too, but I'll chime in.

During this time when she seems to be on good behavior, make a point to yourself to remain aware and to focus on your needs and your boundaries. Otherwise it can be easy to fall back into the belief that "it's finally getting better." I won't attempt to say whether it truly will or won't get better, but it seems you have been through that cycle many times before, so it's fair to assume that it would continue to happen.

Remaining aware and focusing on your needs will help to keep you on the path that you choose for yourself.

It will also help you to remain more grounded and less thrown off balance if (or more likely when) she goes back to doing any of her old behaviors. You won't be able to predict when she will do this, but it will be less of a surprise to you when she does. My uBPDw tends to love vacations and holidays. But they are also quite triggering for her. When I used to think of it rationally (we're going on vacation, she loves these, what could go wrong?), her dysregulation would catch me off guard and throw me far off balance. Recognizing the pattern instead, it's nowhere near as surprising, which helps me to keep myself on the path I want and helps me be faster at protecting our D10 (daughter) from rages against her.

Thanks a lot, Zaqsert.
My EXPWBPD also dysregulates tremendously, especially in the planning and preparation and packing stage.
Throughout this month, I'll do exactly as you said. I'm keeping my eye out for a place to rent from September 1st. The added benefit is my older son will be back at school by this time.
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« Reply #65 on: August 03, 2021, 04:56:05 AM »

I think renting my own place will send a strong signal of my freedom and independence. First of all, she will judge me because I would be spending money on monthly rent. By me ignoring that judgment she will see that she can't control all my finances. She'll see that she needs to go back to work.


Be careful of your intentions. To stay away from co-dependency- it's important to "act on yourself" not her. These statements sound like "if I do X, she will do "Y" as if your actions will somehow be able to have a specific effect on her. We are not able to control anybody but ourselves. Trying to change her by changing you isn't effective. Let's rewrite this:

I think renting my own place will send a strong signal to me of my freedom and independence.  If she judges me because I would be spending money on monthly rent, my response will be to ignore that and remain in control all my finances. I am not in control of how she responds but I am in control of how I respond.

Thinking she will somehow see that she needs to go back to work is a bit of wishful thinking. More likely, there could be an extinction burst of behavior to return things to how they have been. The focus needs to be on how you can handle this. Also  a quick cut off of funding may not be a manageable plan. Even if she did go back to work, it takes time to apply, interview, and this is a big change in behavior. that may not be achievable immediately. But you do need control of the money you make. Some sort of allowance with a time limit ( if you are splitting up) "I will send x per month for 3 months". You may need to consult a lawyer to determine this- you are not legally married but I don't know if you have obligations due to having children with her. The plan you have is not acceptable to you but a change isn't likely to be acceptable to her. Having some plan in place, and support from a professional may help you decide on a boundary that doesn't get you into legal problems.

Thanks for all your support from the bottom of my heart.
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« Reply #66 on: August 03, 2021, 05:01:21 AM »

That's so true it will send a string signal to me.

That's a very insightful statement.

Sometimes I wonder if I should have the strength to be myself and just slowly but surely work through her resistance.

On the other hand, leaving and renting my own space could help me to do that so much faster and with less stress, and thus less impact on my physical and mental health.
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« Reply #67 on: August 09, 2021, 11:01:04 AM »


Argh.

May have made an error.

Expwbpd brought me a heart shaped stone from the ocean. I did not plan to say anything about my move out. I brought them on a holiday as I felt it would be the highest good for all. However, I didn't really want the holiday and we're not due to go back until Friday (driving).

I didn't want to reveal anything until I'd sorted everything. Because no communication has ever been possible with her.

I thanked her upon receipt of the stone. And she recognised I didn't kiss her. I couldn't lie. Tried to avoid the topic but was not mindful enough. Tired from hot sun too.

 I revealed that it's not working for me. And that my plan is to move to a separate home.

Sadly but not surprisingly she completely dysregulated and started bringing the boys into it. My 4 year old is old enough to understand. She was ranting and raving, causing a scene. Asking them if they want us to stay together in one home. Blaming angrily.

It only all served to reinforce my decision.

I really didn't want the boys to know though. Not till later. This feels like a big mistake. I wanted everything done behind the scenes.

Even more sadly, I could not record her telling me to take the boys, which I'd been planning to do. I will try to capture it next time I see her. She told me several times that I should take them and I really want the evidence.

Didn't want this to happen. Maybe a bit of self sabotage going on. Also will make it harder for the boys.

Why did I do this? Any tips on handling it now is out in the open?
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« Reply #68 on: August 09, 2021, 12:10:22 PM »

It may have been self sabotage.

Maybe other unconscious reasons for this occurring.

Only thing I can do is go with the flow in complete honesty, kindly.

I don't want physical contact or any heated conversations.

Generally speaking I don't want to "talk." I just want to gently be myself and speak about my truth, my wants and my needs.

I want to plan to get my own place by September 1st. Ready to start my new job and home office.

I don't think I want it to be a trial separation. I think I want to have the opportunity to meet new people.

I want my boys to feel loved by me through it all.

I want to call my family of origin so my boys know they are loved by others in the family.

I can't control what she will say to my boys. But I want to be there to ensure my learning is shared with them, and to make sure it will all be a fun adventure.

I don't think there's anything she could say or do now to say my decision.
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« Reply #69 on: August 09, 2021, 12:32:34 PM »

I think all the years of hurt resulted in wisdom rather than raw hurt. I honestly don't feel animosity towards her. Only desire to be distant, to have the opportunity to be me, to share life and Life's teachings with the boys.

She disappeared, she's been gone for about 2 hours. This is the first time I've relaxed on this vacation. It feels great just me and the lads. I can Be with them and they are more peaceful
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« Reply #70 on: August 09, 2021, 12:38:55 PM »

I'll be ready with Airbnb accommodation on immediate return from vacation.
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« Reply #71 on: August 09, 2021, 12:48:12 PM »

I feel that to do anything different to what my feelings are telling me would be a loss of integrity that I can't bare now. This is a new feeling for me. It's the rising of feelings and heart and self trust above the mind and its doubt and thinking. It's what women seem to do naturally, know what they feel, express it, know it to be true beyond what the mind says is right or wrong. It just is. Acceptance. Love.

I suppose this is a sign of growing into a mature adult.
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« Reply #72 on: August 09, 2021, 02:35:42 PM »

OK it was less eventful than I was fearing.

Blame and criticism that I'm not committed... Etc.

Other than that, she appears strong although she showed a tear at one point when she asked me for the stone back.

I don't feel manipulated any more by the tears and displays of anger. There are so many ups and downs with her on a monthly basis. I find it exhausting...



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« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2021, 02:39:41 PM »

There's a lot of things I could have done better in my own separation and divorce.  Accept what happened and adjust your strategies going forward.  The children are young.  The specifics of these events will likely fade in time since they're so young.  As long as they're not repeatedly reminded of it.  Which is hard to do since you can't control the behaviors of the other parent.

What stopped you from recording?  The stress of the moment?  Your phone or other device wasn't handy?  I recall I had many missed opportunities to record.  That was back in the day before smart phones.  I used voice recorders but they were a bit awkward and had limited memory.  Accept what happened and adjust your strategies going forward.
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« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2021, 02:58:23 PM »

There's a lot of things I could have done better in my own separation and divorce.  Accept what happened and adjust your strategies going forward.  The children are young.  The specifics of these events will likely fade in time since they're so young.  As long as they're not repeatedly reminded of it.  Which is hard to do since you can't control the behaviors of the other parent.

What stopped you from recording?  The stress of the moment?  Your phone or other device wasn't handy?  I recall I had many missed opportunities to record.  That was back in the day before smart phones.  I used voice recorders but they were a bit awkward and had limited memory.  Accept what happened and adjust your strategies going forward.


Thanks so much!

Yes got it, adjust, re-prepare, keep moving.

So, we'd been at the beach all day. I was mindful enough to remember to record. But since I had 4% battery on my phone remaining, the phone recorder app said it would not work. Gutted. I was gutted. Missed a lot of stuff. Not that I want to use it ever, but it's wise for me to capture it.

Lesson learned, have sufficient mobile charge. I went to the holiday house and plugged in for the next conversation, which I captured. I got some evidence that she had pulled my son in the middle and that she would like me to be the primary caretaker. But she added something she hadn't mentioned before - "until I get back to work." She had never said that before. But I suppose it has never been this serious, I don't think she ever thought I'd do it. Therefore, it's natural that her thinking will evolve in terms of how to actually manage it going forward.

Right now she's just saying that I'm irresponsible. I'm being gaslighted a lot, but I'm stronger in my sense of self than ever before and it's touching me much less than it did in the past. She appears to be trying to get me to doubt myself, telling me I'm ruining the children's lives, telling me whoever I'm getting guidance from doesn't have the family's best interests at heart, telling me I'm lost, telling me that in 20 years I will realise what a terrible error I made, etc.
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« Reply #75 on: August 09, 2021, 03:22:07 PM »

In recent years I've bought portable chargers (lithium battery "bricks") so I'm never far away from a recharge.  Actually I have so many now, I lose track of them.
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« Reply #76 on: August 09, 2021, 09:41:17 PM »

There are some good quality hidden recorders out there if you do a cursory search. Not a typical voice recorder/dictaphone. Disguised as everyday objects, pick the one that best suits your lifestyle.

$100 or so, very portable, charge it and it lasts for weeks, can pick up hundreds of conversations in decent quality if it's in the same room, sometimes in the next room.
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« Reply #77 on: August 10, 2021, 03:53:11 AM »

Why did you get yourself into this situation? First of all, it is water under the bridge so dwelling on it would not be helpful, however, it might help to understand your part in this, because I suspect it's a long standing pattern of how the two of you interact.

These patterns are sometimes so automatic, you aren't always aware of them until you are in them and wonder "how did I get here again".

Have you seen the hole story? It describes the process of changing. So you fell in the hole again, that's part of it.

https://simpleandpractical.com/stages-change-poem/








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« Reply #78 on: August 10, 2021, 08:20:44 AM »

Nice link Wendy, I like it a lot.

Truth, as for "how you got yourself into this?"

I was asked that recently - my answer was remarkably clear and simple:

"I am a complete idiot"

Then corrected that slightly to "I was a complete idiot at the time.  Naïve and had no idea there were people like this"

This adjustment implies I have learned something.  We will see because as a friend once told me decades ago: 

"Life is a series of lessons.  If you do not learn the first time, dont worry, you will get that lesson again."

Yep, that is about as much time as is worth spending on the question - water under the bridge.
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« Reply #79 on: August 10, 2021, 10:41:53 AM »

There are some good quality hidden recorders out there if you do a cursory search. Not a typical voice recorder/dictaphone. Disguised as everyday objects, pick the one that best suits your lifestyle.

$100 or so, very portable, charge it and it lasts for weeks, can pick up hundreds of conversations in decent quality if it's in the same room, sometimes in the next room.

In recent years I've bought portable chargers (lithium battery "bricks") so I'm never far away from a recharge.  Actually I have so many now, I lose track of them.

Thank you both so much for support
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« Reply #80 on: August 10, 2021, 10:42:42 AM »

Why did you get yourself into this situation? First of all, it is water under the bridge so dwelling on it would not be helpful, however, it might help to understand your part in this, because I suspect it's a long standing pattern of how the two of you interact.

These patterns are sometimes so automatic, you aren't always aware of them until you are in them and wonder "how did I get here again".

Have you seen the hole story? It describes the process of changing. So you fell in the hole again, that's part of it.

https://simpleandpractical.com/stages-change-poem/










This is an amazing and beautiful poem. Never had seen it. I'll share this far and wide
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« Reply #81 on: August 10, 2021, 10:54:18 AM »

Nice link Wendy, I like it a lot.

Truth, as for "how you got yourself into this?"

I was asked that recently - my answer was remarkably clear and simple:

"I am a complete idiot"

Then corrected that slightly to "I was a complete idiot at the time.  Naïve and had no idea there were people like this"

This adjustment implies I have learned something.  We will see because as a friend once told me decades ago: 

"Life is a series of lessons.  If you do not learn the first time, dont worry, you will get that lesson again."

Yep, that is about as much time as is worth spending on the question - water under the bridge.

This is really true.

I heard the teaching for many years "do not be naive." My first spiritual teacher said it many times over.

Despite hearing it, I didn't "know it." I'd say, after this experience, I've learned it and "know it." Don't be naive.

Within 4 months I was already having major alarm bells ringing. I didn't have the self-trust to follow my intuition. 2 children and much pain over 8 years later... here I am... having the same alarm bells, and ready to take action...
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« Reply #82 on: August 10, 2021, 01:12:48 PM »

She just asked me for a hug as a request for oxytocin. Her character was damsel in distress.

I was caught off guard. I didn't return it but allowed her to lay on me.

The hug was disturbed by our younger son.

A few minutes later she came again. This time I said, I don't think it's appropriate for us to cuddle.

She replied, it is for me because I love you. But I can't change your decision.

My thoughts are, she says she loves me, but I can't live with the ups and downs anymore. 2 weeks ago she called me evil and a few days ago, a stupid man. This type of thing happens so frequently.

I think she aims to trigger a part of me that will sympathize with the damsel in distress.

But I want more than that, I want co-commitment, conscious loving and both of us to be self developing. That's more than an attachment based love relationship.

Is it true that she is likely aiming to 'pull me in' emotionally?




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« Reply #83 on: August 10, 2021, 03:22:20 PM »

I think part of the reason I didn't want to tell her in advance was my awareness that she would dig deep to try to keep me locked into the same pattern. That occurred tonight in a overall calm conversation in the following ways:

Trying to get me to doubt myself by telling me several times that I'm being guided by "someone" who lacks integrity, and doesn't have our family's best interests at heart

Insinuating quite obviously that I'm not forgiving. But the point here isn't that I lack forgiveness but that I don't want to remain in the same patterns and lack of connection

Guilt tripping by insinuating I'm not willing to see "all her improvements" in emotional regulation over the last 6 months, despite the fact that two weeks ago she called me evil in a rage and one week ago she called me a stupid man

Telling me that our conversation tonight is the first time I've been willing to "let her speak in 6 months," where the truth is that I've been unwilling to let her emotionally dysregulate and dump her emotions. Tonight she was not dumping, her intention was clearly toward peace and careful communication. Therefore this was a clever trick

Despite all her positive sounding words about her view of forgiveness tonight (despite yesterday telling me she would never ever forgive me if I were to move out) she showed no indication of commitment to new behaviour... Only the insinuation that we live and learn and it may take many years not to have the same ups and downs...

When I highlighted some things of the past that I have been unhappy with, such as being hit on 5 separate occasions, wishing my family of origin members dead many times, calling me names on a weekly basis, she brought up instances of the violent things I'd done such as ripping a paper calendar once and pulling out the modem from the wall and breaking it. These are things I hated and made amends for. There's truth to her words that these are things that I should not have done, but to compare them with the frequency and intensity of the things she does and CONTINUES to do, is not truthful... This is really tricky and I see the lie she is telling


The lies are so subtle probably because I still feel unsafe talking to her. Starting to be more objective I can see more of what is happening
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« Reply #84 on: August 10, 2021, 03:45:50 PM »

I am glad you like the poem. I think we can see this in different ways. Yours is how did you get into the relationship but one can also see it as falling into patterns. I saw it this way when I realized I was having the same circular argument ,or JADEing about something as if for some reason doing the same thing and expecting different results would be different this time.

Your hole now- explaining logically why there are issues and your wife refuting them. Think for a moment, if the two of you could solve your issues by this kind of discussion, you would not be dealing with the issues you have now.

Climbing out of your relationship pattern hole will need you to recognize that you are in a familiar hole. It may help you to call your sponsor and work out what on your end is keeping you in the pattern. This is different from the relationship, even if you want out of it, understanding the patterns will help you to learn different ways of relating.

Not sure who she thinks is "guiding you". You are your own guide.
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« Reply #85 on: August 10, 2021, 04:13:29 PM »

I see my pattern of wanting her to understand why me leaving is a good idea.

That's not healthy. If understanding were possible, we wouldn't be where we are now.

Since a total lack of mutual understanding results in lack of connection, there is essentially no love holding us together. Only my willingness to continue being manipulated thru guilt and fear would enable the relationship to continue, because that is what it was built on. There was no authenticity.

I see the pattern and I want out. Even the conversations about me leaving follow the same pattern! The relationship can't support any other form of communication, since there's no mutual co-commitment.

She's been trying to force me to see it her way tonight... Pointless dynamic...

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« Reply #86 on: August 11, 2021, 02:42:42 AM »

This morning she's taking a more bulldozing approach.

I feel it's like an attempt to confuse me with immense emotional energy, nervous system overload, all an attempt to create fear and doubt.

In the past I would have followed the thought 'what if I'm wrong' and given the benefit of the doubt. Now the theme of my life is listening to my inner voice and trusting that my intuition and feelings have validity. Therefore, I'll stick with the former paragraph as an assessment of what she is actually doing.

Almost like she wants me to freeze like a rabbit in the headlights via anger and intensity, so that I don't move.

I had to leave the house.

It's sad that this is actually how she is. Rather than focus more intensely on her own growth, capabilities and independence, she's highly dependent on me and hides the fact with a veneer of angry self confidence in her judgments of me, such as that I'm simply a person who lacks commitment and the willingness to forgive. These assessments of me in the past caused me to freeze and, due to severe self doubt, introject.

Now I can give more attention to it objectively. This isn't about my lack of forgiveness, it's about being stuck in a painful pattern and complete lack of connection and alignment. Thus I live next to her either as an empty shell or someone who has to force to get his needs met, which is highly stressful.
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« Reply #87 on: August 11, 2021, 04:36:18 AM »

Argh. I'm losing objectivity and getting overwhelmed.

Need some help.

For a while in our conversation she appeared to be hearing me on my needs, such as the need to get a nanny, the need for me to have more freedom with increased support from a nanny, my long term desire to come off medications which can't happen without that support, etc. She appeared to be bending, listening, and hearing me and even having some sort of small revelation that wow, maybe she understands for the first time and is willing to change. It was like a drug for me. I got more and more intense stating my needs and wants. I got overwhelmed and filled with false hope.

Now I remember this has happened several times in the past Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)
It happened 6 months ago.

But what happened? It seems to be a cycle where my pent up frustration arises more intensely now and again, and she appears to bend. But then things always go back to the way they were.

Please help me not to get caught up in false hope. Unless there is real hope, just hope that is in reality 10, 20 or 30 years of struggle until shifts in behavior have truly occurred. I.e. there will be very little short term change...

She's willing to see my family of origin at Christmas.

I'm tired and overwhelmed. I hate the cycle of hope that I get locked into. I don't want to get locked into it. I don't want to stay, yet I still hold that attachment of an attached and happy family. Intact...

Is this my childhood trauma playing itself out strongly right now? As a kid, I would love the times of calm... they'd fill me with hope that things would finally be OK again, that things might stay calm this time... those times of calm always came after a storm - a big fight between Mum and Dad which I always trying to keep under control by being the mediator. Am I just witnessing this now in my adult life? I don't want my boys to carry that same pattern into the future... Those times of peace and hope were beautiful, only to be broken with another fight a few weeks later... another disappointment, sadness, pain... when I was about 10 years old, I told my mum that I wished her and my dad would break up. I remember the moment, I was in tears having locked myself into the bathroom. My mum was banging on the door asking me to open it, and I did. I was in tears and I remember the shock on her face when I said "I just want you to break apart"

All these years later, they are together. Are they together happily? I think in their older age, they are more happy then they ever were. They told me that they rubbed each other's rough edges from one another... they told me that love is hard and that they stayed together for the kids. I don't know much about the quality of their relationship now, due to being far away for so many years... but they seem more chilled. Nevertheless, my mother is severely ill with obsesity and chronic fatigue syndrome, as well as a heart disorder. Was this caused by the loss of her authentic self? My Dad was the disappearing father... he was probably exhausted by my mother. I can see that I'm a more energetic Daddy to my boys when my EXPWBPD isn't around. Just our mere presence in the same room seems to negatively affect the boys behavior.

Do I follow the way of my parents? That love is a commitment and that we stay together for better or worse, despite the fact that "worst" severely wounds life satisfaction and joy? Do I stay with my EXPWBPD now, because she wants me to, even if I don't want to have physical or emotional contact with her? Or do I go, get through the hard time, and re-build a truly joyous and happy life? With my boys so young, will this be better for them? To have a Dad who is happier and more fulfilled, living more in Soul and Spirit rather than pain and exhaustion?

It's hard...

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« Reply #88 on: August 11, 2021, 04:55:26 AM »

Keep in mind that all of us, including her, have a set of relationship tools. Some of the suggestions on this board are relationship tools for decreasing conflict- and these are for us to do- not manage the other person. One "tool" is to remove ourselves from a high conflict/circular argument - in order to calm ourselves down. Looks like you did this and it's a good thing. You were in an angry discussion- and you left the house. As long as the kids are safe- this is OK to do, and keeps the situation from escalating.

Until we learn new relationship tools, we use the ones we have. Perhaps you have had a long standing habit of appeasement to keep things calm. These "tools" work for both people and when they work, we keep using them as they are reinforced. If each time your wife approached you with anger, you appeased her, then this is reinforced. If each time you appeased, things calmed down- this reinforced your own uncomfortable feelings- and so the patterns between you are reinforced.

We can only control ourselves, not someone else, but if there's a pattern of interaction between two people and one person changes, this changes the comfort level of both. She's uncomfortable because what has usually worked to calm her down doesn't. You are uncomfortable too. There's information on this board about the "extinction burst"- sometimes the behaviors that worked escalate. As long as you can tolerate your own discomfort ( and everyone is safe) you hold up your end of the change. Sometimes the other person also learns different behaviors, or not, but this is not up to us.

You have worked with the addiction model, and so this will make sense. All addictions serve as escapes from uncomfortable feelings. In the pattern of co-dependency- enabling, appeasing, explaining (JADE), and other habits serve to calm the other person and this relieves us from our own discomfort at seeing them upset. On the other side - the other person is behaving in ways that also serve as emotional relief. You may have been "managing her feelings" for a while, and while this may sound as if you are being kind and accommodating, you are also managing your own feelings by giving in- and in this way, reinforcing her behavior.

Consider why the pull to appease is so strong for you. It may help to stay centered on your side of this and see her behavior as using the tools that she has- they worked for her before - why wouldn't she. Your part is to manage your own feelings.
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« Reply #89 on: August 11, 2021, 05:00:42 AM »

If you are feeling overwhelmed and losing objectivity, you are not able to participate in any discussions with her about your relationship at the moment. It's a self care thing. It's OK to say "I can't say yes or no right now, I am feeling overwhelmed and need to think about this". It's OK to stop negotiating things like seeing family for Christmas, nanny, etc because if someone is overwhelmed they are not thinking clearly.

This is where a time out is needed. Make it about you, not her. "I need some time to think about this" and take it- leave the house if the kids are safe, or say " I can't discuss this now, I need a few moments"
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« Reply #90 on: August 11, 2021, 07:58:54 AM »

Hi Notwendy, thanks for the deep insights. It really helps.

I left the house twice this morning, and on my return she continued. I was too exhausted to leave again (it's 35 degrees celcius). She wouldn't respect my boundary to stop discussion. In the end, I refused to talk and lay on the bed. I could have stayed out for longer the times I left. First time was about for 15 minutes, second for about 25 minutes. On my mind is always the boys.

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« Reply #91 on: August 11, 2021, 08:08:52 AM »

Just keep in mind, you don't have to say yes or no to anything, especially when you are feeling overwhelmed.

"I" statements are better than "you" statements. " I am feeling exhausted and need some time to think about this" is better than getting into circular arguments.

It's also OK to repeat when pushed. "I need to think about this" with each request. If being criticized " I understand you feel this way" validates that yes, you understand that she feels the way she does without validating or refuting it.
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« Reply #92 on: August 11, 2021, 11:11:07 AM »

There's truth to her words that these are things that I should not have done, but to compare them with the frequency and intensity of the things she does and CONTINUES to do, is not truthful...

In her perspective, her perceptions — and her need to maintain a self-image — may not distinguish between your rare reactions and her frequent outbursts.  She may equate one or two incidents as equivalent to all of hers.  Your one or two events loom large in her blaming — and excusing herself — perspective.  (Likely she demands, as mine did, repeated apologies for incidents of which she never never lets go and brings up over and over.)  That also is part of her skewed mental reasoning and memory.

You have a right to decide how much conflict or negativity to allow in your life.  In addition to that excellent Stages of Change link, I'm reminded of an old post made soon after I found this site.

This has been said many times so I don't know if there is an original quote to cite, but I remember on Star Trek the Enterprise's engineer Scotty finally exclaimed to those on the Bridge, speaking of the Klingons trying to keep luring the Enterprise away from Captain Kirk and the landing party with a second false distress signal, "Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me!"
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« Reply #93 on: August 11, 2021, 12:14:50 PM »

You are correct to distinguish between two very different patterns:

  • Misleading pattern:  A person claims to be "working on issues" but it turns out to be minimizing them or making a show change mostly only when under scrutiny, after a while the old behaviors return, again and again.  Back to the same old, same old.
  • Recovery pattern:  The person seriously tackles the issues, willing to seek the aid of professionals and commit to real changes.  Of course there are sometimes setbacks where the person "falls off the wagon", so to speak, but the person then gets back on track.  Long term improvements are clear to see, after all, real recovery is a process and not an event.

You are also experiencing the FOG — Fear, Obligation, Guilt.  Ponder how each aspect has been used to sabotage you over the years and continuing until now.  While each of those three can be positive qualities, they can also be misused and twisted negatively.
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« Reply #94 on: August 12, 2021, 12:59:04 AM »

In her perspective, her perceptions — and her need to maintain a self-image — may not distinguish between your rare reactions and her frequent outbursts.  She may equate one or two incidents as equivalent to all of hers.  Your one or two events loom large in her blaming — and excusing herself — perspective.  (Likely she demands, as mine did, repeated apologies for incidents of which she never never lets go and brings up over and over.)  That also is part of her skewed mental reasoning and memory.

You have a right to decide how much conflict or negativity to allow in your life.  In addition to that excellent Stages of Change link, I'm reminded of an old post made soon after I found this site.


This is truly insightful.

I realise reading your post that it is real to her. It is real, it occurred in her mind's eye.

It's so hard to keep this in mind on a day to day basis. That the things that are so inherently frustrating are actually normal for her. That she actually believed my family of origin hated her, when all I saw were their efforts to love her. That the incidents I mentioned above are the equivalent of all of hers, etc.

Most of time I just figure she's outright lying. But that's not the case, maybe not always, at least.
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« Reply #95 on: August 12, 2021, 01:02:59 AM »

You are correct to distinguish between two very different patterns:

  • Misleading pattern:  A person claims to be "working on issues" but it turns out to be minimizing them or making a show change mostly only when under scrutiny, after a while the old behaviors return, again and again.  Back to the same old, same old.
  • Recovery pattern:  The person seriously tackles the issues, willing to seek the aid of professionals and commit to real changes.  Of course there are sometimes setbacks where the person "falls off the wagon", so to speak, but the person then gets back on track.  Long term improvements are clear to see, after all, real recovery is a process and not an event.

You are also experiencing the FOG — Fear, Obligation, Guilt.  Ponder how each aspect has been used to sabotage you over the years and continuing until now.  While each of those three can be positive qualities, they can also be misused and twisted negatively.

Thank you for this insightful post. It makes me see things more clearly.

Regarding the recovery pattern, she has made changes based on the fear that I would leave if she continued certain behaviour. However, she doesn't believe she has a problem. She thinks she is fine! Therefore, she appears to have little intrinsic drive to "recover."

For me, forcing change by making it known I'm close to leaving isn't something I can do anymore. It's never a mutually empathetic relationship that way. It's stressful and decreases the zest for life.
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« Reply #96 on: August 12, 2021, 05:15:59 AM »

For me, forcing change by making it known I'm close to leaving isn't something I can do anymore. It's never a mutually empathetic relationship that way. It's stressful and decreases the zest for life.

Such dynamic really doesnt work for either side.  It is a form of emotional blackmail - an ongoing threat of emotional hurt (leaving) if she doesnt do what you want her to.  The same thing might happen to you in reverse. 

Although it can be useful to trigger change (I can not remain the relationship unless true ownership of taking on recovery) - as you say if she doesnt believe she has any problems to work on, it is simply a short term lip service to pacify you.  And you burn a bunch more of your life holding out hope and waiting for change that never comes.

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« Reply #97 on: August 12, 2021, 05:53:59 AM »

Such dynamic really doesnt work for either side.  It is a form of emotional blackmail - an ongoing threat of emotional hurt (leaving) if she doesnt do what you want her to.  The same thing might happen to you in reverse. 

Although it can be useful to trigger change (I can not remain the relationship unless true ownership of taking on recovery) - as you say if she doesnt believe she has any problems to work on, it is simply a short term lip service to pacify you.  And you burn a bunch more of your life holding out hope and waiting for change that never comes.



Thanks, yeeter. That gives me deeper insight. Tremendously helpful.
Yeah, I see the emotional blackmail I'm engaging in through this approach. Not what I want. My intention has been the possibility of me moving out, but since she sees it as a real possibility, she suddenly shows more humility and openness. Over time, that fades away. I'm now ready to actually take the step to change my life and increase my well being. I believe that will be best for the boys too.
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« Reply #98 on: August 12, 2021, 05:55:23 AM »

I suppose the learning for me here is -

Never hope for change. Create it.

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« Reply #99 on: August 12, 2021, 06:29:26 AM »

Maybe it would help to look at this through extrinsic and intrinsic motivation.

All of us are motivated by both. Few of us would continue working at our jobs if we did not get a paycheck. We do a good job so we can keep the paycheck but in addition, we are intrinsically motivated to do a good job through our sense of self- to be in alliance with who we think we are. ie- I do a good job because I am a competent and reliable person.

Take away that sense of self that is uncertain for a pwBPD and one can see a lot of extrinsically motivated behavior. It is possible to be extrinsically motivated by fear, or immediate reward. When extremely motivated a person can be on their best behavior. Once the external motivation is diminished, there's no reason for the behavior. Rather than judge someone for this, realize we are all motivated by external motivations to some extent.

We can see this transition from extrinsic to intrinsic motivation in children. Where once I could get the kids to clean their rooms with the motivation of earning a toy, they now clean them due to their own wish for order. Personal change takes continuous work. I think that requires intrinsic motivation and it takes time. It's not the instant " I am good now" due to fear or wanting something.

Sadly, the tendency towards projection and denial makes it hard for someone with BPD to realize the impact of their behavior on others. How capable a person is to have insight and make personal change might vary. I think you have to make your own assessment of that through observation of the person- are the changes long term or situational?

The lying and manipulation may be intentional ( in terms of deliberately wanting to be hurtful) or a result of them wanting what they want in the moment. I think it's hard to know. Rather than try to figure out what someone else is thinking, or manipulate their behavior through fear or reward, focus on your behavior.

If you are ending the relationship, I hope you have consulted a lawyer about custody issues and any financial obligations to her. I am not a lawyer, but there could be issues about abandonment if you left, custody disputes.





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« Reply #100 on: August 12, 2021, 12:23:07 PM »

Hi Notwendy, thanks a lot for looking at this through that lens. It's super helpful.

How intrinsically motivated is my EXPWBPD? I would say, a little. There's a spark of motivation, but it's rather passive rather than active and committed. It's more like, "I learn through life experience" rather than actively taking moral inventory. I think that's why it feels so one-sided between us - I feel I'm not meeting anybody "there." There's a lack of self-ownership and presence. Hence, I feel like I'm with a person who's primarily running conditioned responses. I do notice her efforts at self-improvement, but they're not enough for me to feel satisfied in a mutually committed relationship.

So, how much can I handle it, for how much longer? Do I want to be with her? The answer is more and more "no." I don't feel to have any physical contact now.

I've seen a lawyer over the years. One thing to mention is that I am not formally married to her. I proposed to her many years ago on a vacation, mainly to inspire her to feel that I love her, rather than coming from a sincere desire in my heart. However, we never did marry, although we had our two boys.

I've learned that everything if possible, should be done away from lawyers and courts and as much as possible the organization of co-parenting should be done between us. Only time will tell if that's possible, and if I would need to get a lawyer involved to create a formal agreement on co-parenting rules. I've heard that in the country I'm in, matters would only go to court in case either of us were to fight for full custody. By default, we'd have joint custody. And, over the last few days, I've gotten recorded evidence that she'd like me to take the children and be the primary caretaker, which I will surely do.

However, although I'm pretty sure - 95% sure - I'll get my own rented home close by, I'm not sure exactly how to work it out with the children. It might be that the rented house is my work from home space, as well as a place to sleep and get downtime for myself, as well as nanny support. My boys could become accustomed to me having that space, but for the time being, continue to sleep at their current home. My EXPWBPD still sleep in one room each with each of the boys, so that would take some time to step away from i.e. get them in the habit of being the two of them in the same room. My EXPWBPD knows not to touch me anymore and that I prefer not to have a physical or emotional relationship. It's just gone too far... I think her calling me "evil" the other day was the last straw, as I had already been contemplating leaving. I just don't want to be emotionally open with her now as it is so unsafe.
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« Reply #101 on: August 12, 2021, 12:27:13 PM »

Deep down, very deep down, I have lied to myself and her all these years.

This wasn't a conscious lie. It was simply a lack of understanding and ignorance about how life works.

You see, I felt the alarm bells only 4 months or so into our relationship. But I couldn't listen to my intuition and trust myself. I relied on outer guidance rather than the feelings in my own heart. It has taken me up until today, that's around 8 or 9 years, to realize that feelings matter, and that just because outer guides say XYZ or that I have a belief system running in my head e.g. "I can CHOOSE to love her and that is enough," the feelings of the heart eventually catch up.

That's what is happening now. Nearly ten years later, I'm listening to my heart, trusting it, going where it takes me. Sad, but true. I just didn't have the grown up in my life to teach me the value of listening inwardly. The youngest child of 3 with a dominant father, noone ever told me to listen to my heart, to guard my heart, and to follow my heart.
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« Reply #102 on: August 14, 2021, 03:41:33 PM »

I described tonight why I plan to leave.

She's not happy, and her responses range from apathy and defeat "so just go if you go" and anger and gaslighting. She wants me to stick around.

I am hesitant to discuss why I'm leaving with her again. I've been really clear tonight, kind but ruthlessly honest about my wants, needs, likes and dislikes. It's not been easy for her to hear.

The reason why I'm hesitant is because although she is asking for tranparency, getting into "discussion" with her pulls me into the FOG. Listening to the feelings in my heart isn't something that comes naturally, so I'm easily manipulated.

She's fighting to get me to stay. The problem is, in expressing my likes and dislikes, needs and wants, I naturally am setting a sort of rationale regarding what I need to stick around. This can easily feel manipulative for her, and if I'm not careful, I can get into the command and control mindset, which is exactly what I dislike about my relationship with her, and why I'm leaving it.

The problem is that there are so many things I'd need to change, she wouldn't be able to change everything. In essence, I'm only reinforcing that she's "not enough" for me because I don't want to stay with her as she is. This is of course hurtful for her and not what I want.

I want to support her and will do so. But she's at the point now where she's telling me I take the boys and wants to completely cut contact with all of us.
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« Reply #103 on: August 14, 2021, 03:43:27 PM »

I described tonight why I plan to leave.

She's not happy, and her responses range from apathy and defeat "so just go if you go" and anger and gaslighting. She wants me to stick around.

I am hesitant to discuss why I'm leaving with her again. I've been really clear tonight, kind but ruthlessly honest about my wants, needs, likes and dislikes. It's not been easy for her to hear.

The reason why I'm hesitant is because although she is asking for tranparency, getting into "discussion" with her pulls me into the FOG. Listening to the feelings in my heart isn't something that comes naturally, so I'm easily manipulated.

She's fighting to get me to stay. The problem is, in expressing my likes and dislikes, needs and wants, I naturally am setting a sort of rationale regarding what I need to stick around. This can easily feel manipulative for her, and if I'm not careful, I can get into the command and control mindset, which is exactly what I dislike about my relationship with her, and why I'm leaving it.

The problem is that there are so many things I'd need to change, she wouldn't be able to change everything. In essence, I'm only reinforcing that she's "not enough" for me because I don't want to stay with her as she is. This is of course hurtful for her and not what I want.

I want to support her and will do so. But she's at the point now where she's telling me I take the boys and wants to completely cut contact with all of us.

Note: tonight she is sleeping in the living room rather than next to our youngest son, where she normally sleeps. She says she needs to get used to not being around him, therefore I should sleep there.

It's scary that she would do this... how should I take it?
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« Reply #104 on: August 14, 2021, 04:01:14 PM »

You have had your say. Stop the circular discussions. They aren't helping. Once you have said what you need to say you don't have to revisit it over and over.

Don't make your decisions based on her emotions. Emotions can be all over the place. If she truly wants to leave all of you, that is her decisions. She may change her mind or not.

Your job is to protect and care for your boys. Children do need to learn to sleep by themselves but I know some parents and cultures do co-sleeping. If the 2 year old has been used to sleeping with his mother, this is a disruption for him. You all need your sleep and he may stay up crying as this is an abrupt change for him. Sleeping next to him might be the best solution for now.
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« Reply #105 on: August 14, 2021, 04:19:23 PM »

NotWendy is so right. You have had a clear and blunt conversation about your relationship and what is lacking. Any further conversations will serve only to ramp up her emotions and perhaps her manipulations.

Your focus right now needs to be on finding a new place to live and getting a nanny/childcare set up. Be practical.
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« Reply #106 on: August 14, 2021, 09:22:46 PM »

She might leave you with the kids?  Don't protest.  You can handle the parenting, no problem.

Your youngest might not be used to sleeping by himself?  That's no big deal either.  I recall that in the final months before separation my then-spouse was so rejecting that she slept with our three year old, locking herself in his room.  Here's all that happened when the separation started...

I recall my own separation.  (My spouse was removed by the police for Threat of DV charge.)  I had my 3 year old son that first week.  Twice he woke up and asked about his mother, I simply said she's not here.  That was it.  Nothing more.  He was just fine with that.  In fact, in those early days I was freaking out, tried to be overly-fair and so I mentioned her, but he immediately changed the subject.  I didn't block her but realized I could just let it go.

Just be prepared for whatever happens, or not.

And that time I mentioned her, trying to be oh so fair?  We were mixing cookie batter and he immediately redirected me to keep mixing.  He was the one changing the subject!  Lesson learned... this is not the time to be "fair", just be right.
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« Reply #107 on: August 15, 2021, 03:12:01 AM »

You have had your say. Stop the circular discussions. They aren't helping. Once you have said what you need to say you don't have to revisit it over and over.

Don't make your decisions based on her emotions. Emotions can be all over the place. If she truly wants to leave all of you, that is her decisions. She may change her mind or not.

Your job is to protect and care for your boys. Children do need to learn to sleep by themselves but I know some parents and cultures do co-sleeping. If the 2 year old has been used to sleeping with his mother, this is a disruption for him. You all need your sleep and he may stay up crying as this is an abrupt change for him. Sleeping next to him might be the best solution for now.

Thanks so much. I will stop the discussions now and simply move in the right direction.

Today I have a flat viewing but the place isn't available until Sept. 15th so not sure if it's suitable. I will line up an Airbnb if it seems I should leave asap with the boys.

Thank you for clarifying what is on my side of the road and what's hers. That I'm not responsible for her decisions. It's super helpful.
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« Reply #108 on: August 15, 2021, 03:13:49 AM »

NotWendy is so right. You have had a clear and blunt conversation about your relationship and what is lacking. Any further conversations will serve only to ramp up her emotions and perhaps her manipulations.

Your focus right now needs to be on finding a new place to live and getting a nanny/childcare set up. Be practical.

Thanks GaGrl. I'll be practical now and focus on next steps -
1. Choice of a flat to rent
2. Lining up an Airbnb sooner if needed
3. Getting a private kindergarten organized for my youngest (2 year old), at least 2 days per week
4. Organizing nanny support

Probably lining up the Airbnb is a good idea now as I can already start introducing the boys to a nanny and giving my EXPWBPD space. Today she's locked herself in her room.

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« Reply #109 on: August 15, 2021, 03:16:34 AM »

She might leave you with the kids?  Don't protest.  You can handle the parenting, no problem.

Your youngest might not be used to sleeping by himself?  That's no big deal either.  I recall that in the final months before separation my then-spouse was so rejecting that she slept with our three year old, locking herself in his room.  Here's all that happened when the separation started...

And that time I mentioned her, trying to be oh so fair?  We were mixing cookie batter and he immediately redirected me to keep mixing.  He was the one changing the subject!  Lesson learned... this is not the time to be "fair", just be right.


Thank you ForeverDad. I'm going to be a Forever Dad like you.
Thanks for your experience strength and hope.
I will look after these children and ensure they're safe. They can start connecting with my family of origin in my country of origin - they have Aunties and Uncles and cousins there...
I will not focus on "fair." I will focus on doing what's right and taking the next right step.
She'll be going through her process now. I've been transparent about everything. Now I take action and make it all happen.
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« Reply #110 on: August 17, 2021, 08:18:09 AM »

Excerpt
I love you and wish for you and us the best Smiling (click to insert in post)

Honey

try to see me differently than the woman from past.

I changed a lot. Still in process though...

I learnt to love you as you are sometimes still slipping. Than realizing what has happened and improving.

I love your friends from meeting and love your family of origin.

I want for everyone the best!

She's really trying to make things stay the same. "Love your family of origin" - I have never heard that in my life.

It's hard to read the words because I don't want to be duped. I want to stay close to ME and follow MY HEART, because the mind is full of doubt.

Yesterday she told me in essence she would abandon the boys if I left. 2 weeks I got called evil.
The frequency of these incidents has only decreased the more she's seen me willing to leave.

It's sad that it would have to be this way, that in order to achieve some semblance of love, I would have to threaten to leave.
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« Reply #111 on: August 17, 2021, 08:20:52 AM »

She's really trying to make things stay the same. "Love your family of origin" - I have never heard that in my life.

It's hard to read the words because I don't want to be duped. I want to stay close to ME and follow MY HEART, because the mind is full of doubt.

Yesterday she told me in essence she would abandon the boys if I left. 2 weeks I got called evil.
The frequency of these incidents has only decreased the more she's seen me willing to leave.

It's sad that it would have to be this way, that in order to achieve some semblance of love, I would have to threaten to leave.

Is it common for people with borderline traits to do this? To fight to keep the relationship together when they see their partner is just about to leave? I just fear that when the situation is forgotten, I'll again be subject to all the pain and sadness and anguish.
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« Reply #112 on: August 17, 2021, 09:32:55 AM »

Yesterday she told me in essence she would abandon the boys if I left.

Document this.  As an adult she can do what she wishes with her life.  It has been observed that pwBPD have an attachment disorder, fear of abandonment is huge to them, so strange that their actions end up doing that to their relationships.

(1) Is it common for people with borderline traits to do this? (2) To fight to keep the relationship together when they see their partner is just about to leave? (3) I just fear that when the situation is forgotten, I'll again be subject to all the pain and sadness and anguish.

(1) Yes, there is a wide range of responses, but essentially it is all about them and the abnormal which is normal to them, as long as they control the dynamic.
(2) Together at any cost to you and others, to get things back to the dynamic they prefer and in their perceived comfort zone.
(3) Yes.  Which is why, when there is no or insufficient improvement, that relationships so unbalanced and dysfunctional cannot continue.
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« Reply #113 on: August 17, 2021, 12:08:10 PM »

Document this.  As an adult she can do what she wishes with her life.  It has been observed that pwBPD have an attachment disorder, fear of abandonment is huge to them, so strange that their actions end up doing that to their relationships.


I thought the same too regarding the paradox of them triggering abandonment.

Excerpt


(1) Yes, there is a wide range of responses, but essentially it is all about them and the abnormal which is normal to them, as long as they control the dynamic.
(2) Together at any cost to you and others, to get things back to the dynamic they prefer and in their perceived comfort zone.
(3) Yes.  Which is why, when there is no or insufficient improvement, that relationships so unbalanced and dysfunctional cannot continue.

Thank you... This insight is tremendous. Grateful for your awareness. It makes complete sense. This makes me feel more steady in the face of her sweetness. In fact, I have never ever seen her so sweet. It's sad and I feel compassion for her, but I'm keeping those feelings carefully.

I think she is high functioning bpd. So called quiet? She never has idolised me. I have been the target of only criticism and rage. She has no addictions, to the outside world she is normal, she would never engage in self harm or suicidal ideation. She's calculated, highly controlled. She cries so I do see her genuine pain, but she's unaware of herself.

The sweetness is scary to me because it's not her and it's bigger now than ever. She's trying to get me to stay implicitly.
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« Reply #114 on: August 17, 2021, 01:49:41 PM »

I think your best answer for whether or not this is common with your wife is your past history with her over conflicts or anger episodes. If you see a pattern then you know this is a common pattern for your wife.

I see these patterns as having some different causes. There is the push-pull of these relationships - the "I hate you don't leave me".  There is the fear of abandonment that kicks in when the person pulls away and that can result in the pulling them back behavior. Then I think the rage episodes serve as a sort of release valve for negative emotions, and after one of them, they feel better and assume you do too. Feeling better, they behave differently.

From my own perspective, real change takes time. Saying " Look I have changed now, everything is different" doesn't happen that fast. Behavior is also influenced by motivation. We are all influenced by motivation. If her fear of you leaving is high, then she is motivated to behave well in hopes of getting you to stay. Once you stay, the fear is diminished and there's less motivation.

It's very sad that pwBPD tend to behave worse around the people they are most intimate with. Intimacy requires vulnerability and that is scary.  They are less vulnerable with acquaintances and seem to hold it together with them for short periods of time. I don't think this would be the case if they were with them all the time like they are with their families.

The sweet side is hard because it's the side we want to see, the one we hope to see.

Your assessment of your situation is your answer.



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« Reply #115 on: August 17, 2021, 02:03:23 PM »

I think your best answer for whether or not this is common with your wife is your past history with her over conflicts or anger episodes. If you see a pattern then you know this is a common pattern for your wife.

I see these patterns as having some different causes. There is the push-pull of these relationships - the "I hate you don't leave me".  There is the fear of abandonment that kicks in when the person pulls away and that can result in the pulling them back behavior. Then I think the rage episodes serve as a sort of release valve for negative emotions, and after one of them, they feel better and assume you do too. Feeling better, they behave differently.

From my own perspective, real change takes time. Saying " Look I have changed now, everything is different" doesn't happen that fast. Behavior is also influenced by motivation. We are all influenced by motivation. If her fear of you leaving is high, then she is motivated to behave well in hopes of getting you to stay. Once you stay, the fear is diminished and there's less motivation.

It's very sad that pwBPD tend to behave worse around the people they are most intimate with. Intimacy requires vulnerability and that is scary.  They are less vulnerable with acquaintances and seem to hold it together with them for short periods of time. I don't think this would be the case if they were with them all the time like they are with their families.

The sweet side is hard because it's the side we want to see, the one we hope to see.

Your assessment of your situation is your answer.





This is an extremely enlightening post. Thanks so so much. I just can't see this clearly on my own, reading the posts you and others write brings much needed clarity.

In particular, I now understand the different possible elements impacting her current behaviour much more clearly. It's insightful to recognise that in truth change just doesn't happen that fast.


Yes, I see, ultimately, my assessment is the answer. Our history, our potential, what I can handle currently.

She has improved since I have become more self confident, since she can't gaslight me as much anymore, and since I'm strong about getting my needs met. She has improved. But, things are still pretty awful, and I'm at the end of my tether. I'm exhausted, and my own inner work beckons me to create a life that I can't complain about. To complain about any aspect of life is to be in a victim mentality. My inner work has brought me to a place where I see I'm creating everything, and if I'm displeased, if I feel stuck and resentful, I have the power to change that, and the power to create the life of my dreams. I feel like I'm wading through mud next to her, unable to feel free and happy internally.

Ill have another flat viewing tomorrow and one on Monday next week.
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« Reply #116 on: August 18, 2021, 03:25:13 AM »

Been studying childhood attachment styles and their impact on adult behaviour.

I believe my EXPWBPD is the Disorganized type. Interesting that the page even mentions BPD.

https://www.attachmentproject.com/blog/disorganized-attachment/

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« Reply #117 on: August 19, 2021, 02:52:02 PM »

It was a bit awkward tonight as my expwbpd was talking about celebrating my birthday tomorrow. She said do I want to video call my family of origin.

I said no. I said I don't want a big fuss, just that we can give a little gift to our children and eat a cake.

This is the circumstance as I'm still living in her flat with them, which she says is my flat.

The status is that she doesn't know I'm searching for flats. She knows I don't want any physical contact and limit all conversation to a minimum.

I probably sounded very gloomy and cold but it just feels strange to encourage her to celebrate my birthday, considering what I'm planning.

I have another flat viewing on Saturday and another on Sunday.

She's been very kind last few days, overall. The more distant I am, the sweeter she is.

This makes sense through the lens of the Disorganised attachment style, which I think she has. She's has a simultaneous attraction and aversion to intimacy, which is why her behaviour is so inconsistent. As I've pulled away completely, she's now calmer and kinder. It's so bizarre but I'm now in a place where it's not confusing. I have come to the conclusion that she is making genuine efforts to get healthy, but it's not enough for a mutual loving relationship, and the real big actions are completely missing, such as going to therapy. Therefore I'm continuing to move in the direction of getting my own flat.

I suppose I felt a bit guilty for being cold when she was showing interest in my birthday. I just feel my heart is completely closed now towards her, because opening it will again likely result in her acting out with BPD behaviour eventually. It's this up and down that I don't want anymore.

So yeah, I was cold and distant, but not unkind at all. Given the context, I suppose this was needed
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« Reply #118 on: August 19, 2021, 03:34:51 PM »

She came to me again and rested her arm in my shoulder. I kindly reminded her of the boundary no physical touch. She came to me as she wanted to know why I don't want to call my family of origin with her on my birthday.

We conversed for a while. I felt plenty of anger. I told some truths such as that I don't have the energy to continue through the ups and downs. The name calling, inconsistency, etc. I'm not sure if any of this talk from my side was worthwhile, I would have preferred to stay silent and not talk to her. The conversation took me by surprise.

I felt frustrated as I spoke as I have come to feel so frustrated with her in general. I didn't get out of hand but the energy was very fiery inside me. I would have preferred to operate more calmly internally and in my tone, but alas, that's my human side. At some point I reminded myself to breath consciously.

In the conversation I let her know I'm in the process of looking for apartments.

She was calm and composed and even owned that she should learn to stop name calling.

My frustration levels are so high with her =(

And she says these calm sounding things so I reminded her that two days ago she was telling me that she will cut off her children if leave.

At one point I mentioned that I can't trust her not to cheat on me in the future. This wasn't really necessary.

So, a bit of a messy conversation, where I also felt anxious about being pulled back in.

Is my anger and frustration a lack of forgiveness on my part? Or is it inner wisdom which is pushing me to distance myself, due to things being so bad still with not enough hope and happiness to continue living alongside her?





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« Reply #119 on: August 19, 2021, 06:53:27 PM »

Perhaps it’s just a sign of the dam starting to crack. You’ve been holding back so many feelings for years to maintain a more peaceful equilibrium and now you are beginning to be more authentic with her.
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« Reply #120 on: August 20, 2021, 04:00:26 AM »

Perhaps it’s just a sign of the dam starting to crack. You’ve been holding back so many feelings for years to maintain a more peaceful equilibrium and now you are beginning to be more authentic with her.

Thank you Cat. This truly helps me forgive myself. Understanding that it's not that I'm engaging in negativity but that I'm just getting in touch with my authentic self. Which is the only way forward.

Today she sent me this -

"Let's have some therapy sessions. Either with xyz or someone else. I am open to that.

Let me to prove you how much I love and care for you.

I really do. I know I was too busy and stressed to realize my mistakes.

Now boys are more independent I do not feel the pressure that I felt before."


I'm open to the forum's guidance. This is the first time she's offered therapy

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« Reply #121 on: August 20, 2021, 04:14:51 AM »

Thank you Cat. This truly helps me forgive myself. Understanding that it's not that I'm engaging in negativity but that I'm just getting in touch with my authentic self. Which is the only way forward.

Today she sent me this -

"Let's have some therapy sessions. Either with xyz or someone else. I am open to that.

Let me to prove you how much I love and care for you.

I really do. I know I was too busy and stressed to realize my mistakes.

Now boys are more independent I do not feel the pressure that I felt before."


I'm open to the forum's guidance. This is the first time she's offered therapy



I took her to joint therapy last year when I nearly left.

She maintained throughout and after that she never needed it, that it was solely for me, that I was the one with the problem.
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« Reply #122 on: August 20, 2021, 04:28:53 AM »

I'll reflect today on the next right action.

It might be best to rent my own place to work from home in my new job, and maintain a safe place for me to go also if and when needed.

Since she's opening to therapy, I could agree to that, and that we continue looking after the boys in their current home together.

My own rented space would serve for work purposes and to watch how things go, including if it's right for us to continue as a couple e.g. to watch and see if my romantic and sexual feelings can genuinely be there in the future, for her.

It might be anyway that in the process of HER healing, she discovers the things she wants for herself deep down and may feel more supported in case the final direction is to properly separate.

This means I would need to avoid friendships and sexual relationships with women for now.
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« Reply #123 on: August 20, 2021, 05:11:59 AM »

This means I would need to avoid friendships and sexual relationships with women for now.


From everything I have read and heard in 12 step groups, it would be wise to avoid this regardless. I have heard it said that if someone leaves a dysfunctional relationship and doesn't do their own work on their part of it, they risk repeating the same patterns in a new one.

Change takes time, and this means both of you. If she's serious about working with a therapist- progress would take some time. Just saying she wants to do it doesn't mean the job is done. If you stay or leave the relationship, you would still need some time to work on your part of the issues.

I haven't personally walked the path of separation and then dating again, but from all I have heard and read, it's best to wait and do the personal work on your part no matter what you decide about the flat.

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« Reply #124 on: August 20, 2021, 05:20:41 AM »

Dear TD, you are getting there step by step  Finding your own space is important because it provides a space for you and your boys to reflect and heal.
Couple counseling with pwBPD never goes well on these boards. Because for it to work they have to take responsibility for their actions and their healing. Nevertheless I feel you should agree to it. Place the responsibility on her to make the arrangements-you will be surprised how often it never happens that way. But you are stuck with her until your  boys turn 18 in some kind of relationship, and even if the sessions are about co-parenting peacefully, you will want to know that you have given it your all.  Although our sessions were disastrous, I shall always be glad that me and my pwBPD tried. It made the aftermath a.lot easier. .Negotiate boundaries carefully- counseling shouldn't mean you can't call your family,get massages, etc.  
If she really wants to heal she should go.into individual therapy. It is the single factor which best predicts a successful outcome on these boards. Unfortunately it's not going to work  if she does it to stay with you. She has to want to do it for herself.
Not wendy is absolutely right. I am not dating myself going on 8 months because I dont see the point. If I dont sort my own issues I will just end up in the same relationship with somebody else.
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« Reply #125 on: August 20, 2021, 05:24:07 AM »

This means I would need to avoid friendships and sexual relationships with women for now.


From everything I have read and heard in 12 step groups, it would be wise to avoid this regardless. I have heard it said that if someone leaves a dysfunctional relationship and doesn't do their own work on their part of it, they risk repeating the same patterns in a new one.

Change takes time, and this means both of you. If she's serious about working with a therapist- progress would take some time. Just saying she wants to do it doesn't mean the job is done. If you stay or leave the relationship, you would still need some time to work on your part of the issues.

I haven't personally walked the path of separation and then dating again, but from all I have heard and read, it's best to wait and do the personal work on your part no matter what you decide about the flat.



Thanks very much for these wise words. This rings very true. I'm only on the surface of discovering and having trust in my authentic self. It will take a lifetime to mature, so I will walk very slowly. Thank you...
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« Reply #126 on: August 20, 2021, 05:25:56 AM »

Dear TD, you are getting there step by step  Finding your own space is important because it provides a space for you and your boys to reflect and heal.
Couple counseling with pwBPD never goes well on these boards. Because for it to work they have to take responsibility for their actions and their healing. Nevertheless I feel you should agree to it. Place the responsibility on her to make the arrangements-you will be surprised how often it never happens that way. But you are stuck with her until your  boys turn 18 in some kind of relationship, and even if the sessions are about co-parenting peacefully, you will want to know that you have given it your all.  Although our sessions were disastrous, I shall always be glad that me and my pwBPD tried. It made the aftermath a.lot easier. .Negotiate boundaries carefully- counseling shouldn't mean you can't call your family,get massages, etc.  
If she really wants to heal she should go.into individual therapy. It is the single factor which best predicts a successful outcome on these boards. Unfortunately it's not going to work  if she does it to stay with you. She has to want to do it for herself.
Not wendy is absolutely right. I am not dating myself goingon8 months because I dont see the point. If I dont sort my own issues I will just end up in the same relationship with somebody else.
 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Thank you so so much. I couldn't do this without all of you. It is very hard to come by this hard won wisdom and experience in these boards. This guidance is just incredible. Thanks
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« Reply #127 on: August 20, 2021, 08:37:38 AM »

Dear TD, you are getting there step by step  Finding your own space is important because it provides a space for you and your boys to reflect and heal.
Couple counseling with pwBPD never goes well on these boards. Because for it to work they have to take responsibility for their actions and their healing. Nevertheless I feel you should agree to it. Place the responsibility on her to make the arrangements-you will be surprised how often it never happens that way. But you are stuck with her until your  boys turn 18 in some kind of relationship, and even if the sessions are about co-parenting peacefully, you will want to know that you have given it your all.  Although our sessions were disastrous, I shall always be glad that me and my pwBPD tried. It made the aftermath a.lot easier. .Negotiate boundaries carefully- counseling shouldn't mean you can't call your family,get massages, etc. 
If she really wants to heal she should go.into individual therapy. It is the single factor which best predicts a successful outcome on these boards. Unfortunately it's not going to work  if she does it to stay with you. She has to want to do it for herself.
Not wendy is absolutely right. I am not dating myself going on 8 months because I dont see the point. If I dont sort my own issues I will just end up in the same relationship with somebody else.
 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

I wrote this to her -

Excerpt
I wouldn't like you to feel you have to prove anything.

My desire is only that each person grows to fulfil his or her potential. That's a really personal process.

Working to prove something I feel would only lead to more exhaustion and quite likely resentment.

I'm open to it if you would organise it.

I don't know if I'd stick through the process as I already have therapeutic support. But I would definitely begin the process.

Ideally you'd go to an individual therapist who can help you in a space where you don't have to be considering what you say in front of me.


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« Reply #128 on: August 20, 2021, 10:37:32 AM »

Sometimes, couples enter what is called a "therapeutic separation." If this is what you want to do, you go ahead and get your own apartment and set up childcare as if you were going to live separately. During that time, you and your partner go to  counseling with the goal of making a decision on what is best for your future.

This may be the best way to determine if she is serious about changing, capable of changing, and can sustain improved behaviors with you and with the boys. Give it long enough to see her resolve.
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« Reply #129 on: August 20, 2021, 11:09:01 AM »

Sometimes, couples enter what is called a "therapeutic separation." If this is what you want to do, you go ahead and get your own apartment and set up childcare as if you were going to live separately. During that time, you and your partner go to  counseling with the goal of making a decision on what is best for your future.

This may be the best way to determine if she is serious about changing, capable of changing, and can sustain improved behaviors with you and with the boys. Give it long enough to see her resolve.

Thanks for the insights GaGrl. I hadn't heard of therapeutic separation. This sounds like it could be what we need.

I'm only just learning to be aware of what I feel, need and want. Taking my time seems really important.
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« Reply #130 on: August 20, 2021, 03:59:47 PM »

She made effort to celebrate my birthday. Bought me trousers, wrote a letter asking for forgiveness, cake with candles on it. It was nice and I thanked her and showed appreciation. She even cooked which is very uncommon. She made an effort.

Thing is, I started to feel strange as the evening went on. I felt the BPD energy.

She left the house for a while for space. I think she was just tired. That was fine.

Whilst she was out, we texted back and forth. I expressed that I still feel it best to get my own space and over the next year we can go to therapy together and individually.

When she came back, there were efforts to continue to communicate. I'm so burned out from our drama over the years that I have very little tolerance for it. Unwillingness to get into circular back and forths. As soon as that pattern started, I remembered it is my job to be present for myself and check out if that's best to protect my nervous system. So I did.

After taking the boys to bed, she asked to talk. Deep down I didn't want to, but I said to myself I'll make the effort for 5 minutes and check out if it continues in the old pattern.

Lo and behold, she started trying to persuade me to go to the mountains next weekend. After our recent 2 week holiday which was very exhausting, I had already said that I don't have the energy for it, even though its just for 4 days. So I was unpleasantly surprised that she was asking me again. I reiterated that I can't do it. A moment later our son woke up and we went to his room to make him sleepy again. At that point inside myself I decided not to talk further that night.

When he fell asleep, she left the room and a few minutes later asked me to come back to talk for 10 minutes. This is when I felt even more of the angry borderline energy. I quietly said I'm sorry I don't want to now. She didn't like it.

A few minutes later the rage was stronger, the upset energy that I'm treating her terribly, that I can't even give her 10 minutes, that she does so much for me.

Boom. She was suddenly telling me to get out of the house, give her the house keys and car keys, and pressuring me to sort out the new house and take the boys with me.

180 degree turn. I suppose she has been getting frustrated that I'm not responding my re-opening my heart.

I rapidly and peaceful left without hesitation.

I'm just stepping into a nearby hotel now...

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« Reply #131 on: August 20, 2021, 04:58:33 PM »

All of her behavior is part of what a peNIS can do when faced with a partner putting boundaries in place. She wants to return the relationship to what was comfortable for HER before you put boundaries in place.

One way she reacts is "seducing" you to believe she has changed/will change her behavior by acting sweet, considerate, calm, and rational. As you have just experienced -- she can't sustain that facade. This is why we recommend that you look to what she does -- not what she says.

The other way she is reacting is the extinction burst. When you don't respond the way she wants, when she doesn't get what she wants, her anger and rage flare (perhaps worse than you have ever seen).

Now you know how tricky those 10 minute talks can be.
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« Reply #132 on: August 20, 2021, 07:19:20 PM »

Since she's opening to therapy, I could agree to that, and that we continue looking after the boys in their current home together.

That "we" thought has dangerous vibrations when combined with "in their current home together".  So you're now pondering the idea of leaving the kids behind?  You're moving out, right?  Since your purpose was for the kids to be with you at least half the overnights and more if she relinquished parenting, then does leaving the kids behind mean you're staying behind too?  That the new apartment is just to have a place to work (remotely) in peace?  This would be "remote" from the kids this way.  When and where would the kids have peace and calm?

This sounds a lot like a variation on the problematic "nesting" concept.  That's where neither parent has a home with the kids but the parents take turns helicoptering in.  Nice concept but it doesn't work for long.  Your version seems to indicate she will always be there.  An issue I see, not the only one, is that the kids won't have a home with you away from the discord and dysfunction.

While it's possible her admission does indicate a turning point in her life, this is still promises to change and not evidence of real and lasting improvement.

And as already mentioned you too need recovery from the dysfunctional relationship, even if this was the end with your current relationship, it's not healthy to visualize yourself in a new relationship too soon.  Rebound relationships often fail.  Give yourself time to recover.
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« Reply #133 on: August 20, 2021, 07:38:48 PM »

I agree completely with ForeverDad. In the context of the trial separation I described, you would set yourself up as if the separation were permanent. So whatever arrangements you would have for your portion of childcare and for work would take place in your new apartment.

I don't believe your partner can handle parenting 100%, or even 50%, of the time.
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« Reply #134 on: August 20, 2021, 08:06:25 PM »

All of her behavior is part of what a peNIS can do when faced with a partner putting boundaries in place. She wants to return the relationship to what was comfortable for HER before you put boundaries in place.

Not sure exactly what that "peNIS" reference intended, but probably it's what I recall my divorce lawyer warning me... to think with my big head, not my little head. Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

From a post on February 5, 2011:
I've posted about this topic a few times before, it's probably a good time to mention it again as it teaches a lesson: Experience is not the best teacher, it is the harshest teacher.  So, if you can, learn from others' experiences.

My lawyer warned me to avoid a trap a prior client had fallen for.  His client was divorcing his wife and the reports had come out well for him, his wife's behaviors were that concerning, he was going to have custody of his children, all that was needed was for him to sign.  One last signature. That's all.  No response to his letter to come in and sign, so he called (probably his secretary) and guess who answered?  The wife. Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)  Yes, they were back together again.   The husband dropped the divorce.  Six months passed.  Then the husband came in wanting a divorce yet again, his wife really hadn't changed after all.  This time around his wife knew which behaviors the court and evaluators scrutinized and which she should avoid during the custody evaluation (or it might have been the court's cheaper parenting investigation) and the second time around the reports recommended the children stay with her.  You see, the second report had little or nothing to do with the first one, dropping the first case and starting over in court had triggered a Full Reset.

My lawyer wanted me to avoid a similar mistake.  He told me that even if she came and danced on my lawn naked, I should think with my big head and not my little one.
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« Reply #135 on: August 20, 2021, 10:06:58 PM »

Sorry, it was meant to be pwBPD...

But I'm having a laugh over the "big head"...

Gotta keep a sense of humor, or we fall over the efge.
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« Reply #136 on: August 21, 2021, 02:17:29 AM »

Thank you all so much.

This morning her rage is full blown. I can tell through her texting.

I'm on my way to see a flat.

After this last 12 hours, I'm reminded how dysfunctional she is. I need to make fast use of this reminder.

If the house is nice, I'll say yes immediately and use the next week to get the boys in their as their permanent home.

I agree with everything, I was being wishy washy and holding on for hope.

Being thrown out last night was a gift, a stark reminder of 180 degree turns.

In this rage she can be completely different, acting much more assertively, eventually to crash into feelings of hopelessness and despair.

Ill be ready to get my lawyer involved.

I just don't know what she is feeding the boys whilst I'm not there
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« Reply #137 on: August 21, 2021, 03:32:24 AM »

I saw the flat. Big and perfect for the boys.

I accepted it and they accepted me as tenant. Later today I would pay the fee as formal commitment before signing. Move in date would be September 10. Still some time away.

Is the perfect location. Perfect size.

So... Here I am at the real thing, the real moment...

This is where the mind says are things really that bad, can't I handle it, would I 'take them from their mum who they love and she loves them " since that is precisely what she is saying she will do. But that's because she lacks maturity and would literally be so selfish as to not consider what THEY would feel about it.

How will the boys feel through this... My 2 year old, who is still attached to her. She would essentially abandon him.

I suppose this would be easier if she would commit and align and be an adult. But that's the thing, that's never been possible...


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« Reply #138 on: August 21, 2021, 05:57:02 AM »

I looked into my sons eyes and saw innocence and fear.

Was the fear my protection?

Is it worth keeping it going for them?
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« Reply #139 on: August 21, 2021, 05:58:15 AM »

Her behaviour is full on splitting today
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« Reply #140 on: August 21, 2021, 06:20:33 AM »

I think the idea in keeping it going for them is considering the balance of dysfunction vs capacity to live in the dysfunction, personally.

But ultimately what's best for kids? To witness the dysfunction with a dissatisfied Dad or have separate homes with a happier Dad?

Her behaviour is so manic, erratic today that I'm thinking I should contact my lawyer to see if I can get immediate full custody.

I expect in 2 or 3 days her manic state will turn into a despondent state with very little energy
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« Reply #141 on: August 21, 2021, 08:24:56 AM »

She's very much focusing on trying to make me fear that I'm messing up the boys psychologically...

A lot of bullying today.
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« Reply #142 on: August 21, 2021, 09:53:57 AM »

TD, it's called an extinction burst. You set a boundary ( no physical touch) and made sure she respected it.  :Then you set another one ( I'm not living with you). Well done! Now she is behaving like a three year old. PwBPD react like that when the person that never had boundaries starts to have them. It is good for her. She will learn and grow.
I take it so you are walking away when you can? Try to take the boys out and have fun. Love yourself. 
 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #143 on: August 21, 2021, 10:28:18 AM »

I had been married for over a decade, most of that time as a religious volunteer.  But once we sought to have children (I thought it would bring joy to her distressed and critical side) it became even worse.  She was the doting mother at first but another side of her developed.  She then saw me not as her trusted friend and lover but as a father.  Her memories of her abused childhood were triggered.

That part of my story may not be fully comparable to yours.  But likely you saw the increasing criticism of others, your family (FOO), your mutual fiends and finally you yourself.  I wasn't leaving the relationship, I was essentially being ejected, rejected.  My efforts on continuing with her became impossible, I would have been risking who I was.  Sort of, irresistible force (her demands) meets brick wall (me with stronger boundaries).

That resulted in the implosion of the relationship.  Extinctions bursts, more intensive demands for me to shrink back to the other's historical but dysfunctional comfort zone.  Then came rejection, veiled and not-so-veiled threats, then more and more extreme allegations... make sure your lawyer is prepared to defend you for what is to come.  How your path develops and precisely what your tests will be... that remains to be seen.  But keep your eyes focused on the future for you and your children.

The many here who had no choice but to move forward with their lives will attest that it's tough going for quite a while but seeing the light at the end of the tunnel helps and life is so much better on the other side.

You can learn about the five stages of grieving a loss also here and here and everywhere online... denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.  It's a complicated and personal process, but eventual acceptance is a measure of granting yourself peace with that reality.  Intriguing video at that first link — though it focuses on losing someone in death — it adds meaning as an ongoing sixth facet to resolving our lost relationship.
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« Reply #144 on: August 21, 2021, 11:08:29 AM »


But ultimately what's best for kids? To witness the dysfunction with a dissatisfied Dad or have separate homes with a happier Dad?


What we have said on this forum many times is that it is better for the children to be in a stable, healthy environment with one parent 50% of the time rather than in an unstable, dysfunctional environment with two parents who are at odds 100% of the time.

And it may be that you end up with more than 50% of the time with your boys.
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« Reply #145 on: August 21, 2021, 11:10:34 AM »

TD, it's called an extinction burst. You set a boundary ( no physical touch) and made sure she respected it.  :Then you set another one ( I'm not living with you). Well done! Now she is behaving like a three year old. PwBPD react like that when the person that never had boundaries starts to have them. It is good for her. She will learn and grow.
I take it so you are walking away when you can? Try to take the boys out and have fun. Love yourself. 
 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Your post uplifted me when I read it. I remembered to be joyous with the lads. We were locked out of the house for a few hours because she disappeared; she hadn't taken her mobile phone out with her so missed all my calls, and she had taken my set of keys a couple of hours earlier (she requested them from me; I gave them... naive of me, in hindsight)... We had fun outside the house in a garden area playing hide and seek.

When she finally turned up, we came in the house. It's as if her rage had ended and she was quiet. Suddenly she said sorry for her behavior for the things she said e.g. the ridiculing me, walking on me, etc. It was awfully intense all morning so I was happy to see her rage had already crashed - in the past it would last for days. I think because I have totally given up reacting to it, and I just stay quiet and connected to my heart even when it goes into pain, perhaps she has more room to see how awful that behavior is.

She suddenly broke into tears and said sorry and that she loves me. I said that I receive her sorry but I don't want to hear it anymore that she loves me, and I need time and space to receive her apology fully and when I'm ready I will go back to her and ask exactly what she is apologizing about. I said go look after yourself - go calm down your nervous system, I can't do it for you.

What a roller coaster ride. Up down up down. And now she's turned again... now will be the sweet i love you's... let's see now if she'd be motivated to pursue individual therapy
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« Reply #146 on: August 21, 2021, 11:11:05 AM »

What we have said on this forum many times is that it is better for the children to be in a stable, healthy environment with one parent 50% of the time rather than in an unstable, dysfunctional environment with two parents who are at odds 100% of the time.

And it may be that you end up with more than 50% of the time with your boys.

Thank you so much... this is insightful. I will remember this.
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« Reply #147 on: August 21, 2021, 11:37:45 AM »

Many members with children struggle with this issue. Is it better to try and maintain an intact family and sacrifice my own happiness or is it best for the children to have at least one home with a happy parent?

Several years ago I came across the quote below, attributed to various sources.  This is the oldest reference I found, from a 1986 book titled Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce.  I bought it to confirm and found it on page 195.

An interesting observation by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action, as appropriate, will enable your lives or at least a part of your lives to be spent be in a calm, stable environment - your home, wherever that may be - away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

In short, you can choose to make the best of a lousy situation, whether you stay with demonstrated improvement, "stay for now" pending improvement or whether you go.  The reasonable best.

Your decisions of course will be affected by your spouse's actions and behaviors.  But it's always up to you to decide what boundaries you will set in your life, what you will do or not do, etc.

I would add this perspective too...  Many think they can't "leave" their children but they are already leaving their children to work almost daily, go shopping, etc.  Yes, there is a risk a family court could decide we get less time with our children but at least part of the children's lives would be in a stable, reasonably normal home.  Ponder whether that is a better example for the kids than living only in a dysfunctional home.

Some here do stay together but typically that is when the dysfunction isn't as severe.  How unhealthy your family's dysfunction is, that's for you to evaluate.
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« Reply #148 on: August 21, 2021, 12:10:20 PM »

I had been married for over a decade, most of that time as a religious volunteer.  But once we sought to have children (I thought it would bring joy to her distressed and critical side) it became even worse.  She was the doting mother at first but another side of her developed.  She then saw me not as her trusted friend and lover but as a father.  Her memories of her abused childhood were triggered.

That part of my story may not be fully comparable to yours.  But likely you saw the increasing criticism of others, your family (FOO), your mutual fiends and finally you yourself.  I wasn't leaving the relationship, I was essentially being ejected, rejected.  My efforts on continuing with her became impossible, I would have been risking who I was.  Sort of, irresistible force (her demands) meets brick wall (me with stronger boundaries).

That resulted in the implosion of the relationship.  Extinctions bursts, more intensive demands for me to shrink back to the other's historical but dysfunctional comfort zone.  Then came rejection, veiled and not-so-veiled threats, then more and more extreme allegations... make sure your lawyer is prepared to defend you for what is to come.  How your path develops and precisely what your tests will be... that remains to be seen.  But keep your eyes focused on the future for you and your children.

The many here who had no choice but to move forward with their lives will attest that it's tough going for quite a while but seeing the light at the end of the tunnel helps and life is so much better on the other side.

You can learn about the five stages of grieving a loss also here and here and everywhere online... denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.  It's a complicated and personal process, but eventual acceptance is a measure of granting yourself peace with that reality.  Intriguing video at that first link — though it focuses on losing someone in death — it adds meaning as an ongoing sixth facet to resolving our lost relationship.

Thank you for sharing ForeverDad. I'll keep coming back to this and look into the resources you have shared. Grateful for the information to help me move through this with wisdom, balance, awareness and love.
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« Reply #149 on: August 21, 2021, 01:41:48 PM »

She says

[21/08, 19:52] Honey: I don't really know what am I doing wrong
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« Reply #150 on: August 21, 2021, 02:24:12 PM »

By prefacing this sentence with *Honey* she is trying to soften the impact and make you feel sympathetic.

What she really means is “I don’t think I’m doing anything wrong. And if you believe otherwise, it’s your problem.”
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« Reply #151 on: August 21, 2021, 03:53:07 PM »

Thanks Cat.
So the "Honey" is there as I have her saved in my phone that way.
But regarding the sentence itself, that's very insightful.

There was another drama tonight. I went out and took the car. I went to the sauna. A few weeks ago I started cold water therapy. I now only have cold water showers. At the sauna they maintain a pool of 12 degree water and I go there to submerge for up to 10 minutes at a time, three times on each visit. My goal is, in the winter, to stay in 4 degree water for up to 5 minutes. Slowly working to this goal. The sauna is the only place where this very cold water is maintained.

She saw I took the car and when I got home, she started accusing me of cheating. She doesn't know about my sauna visits and doesn't know about my cold water therapy. I avoid telling her because she believes I would only go to the sauna to look at the opposite sex. 10 years ago that was true, but she doesn't know how I've grown since that time, and I knew she would struggle to conceive of the fact that I could be different now - going for the therapeutic benefits of both the sauna and the ice cold water.

She was manic again, accusing me of cheating. I could see why she saw it that way and I just found it funny because I was feeling so good from the cold water.

I left the room and locked myself in another room to text her as she was unable to listen. I let her know my cold water journey and that I don't go there to look at the opposite sex.

Nevertheless, she left the house herself... so who knows where she's gone now. I get the sense she wants to create doubt in my mind that she's out there with another man. To be honest, it would be a shame if she actually did it as it would add complication to what is already a very slim chance that in the future e.g. 1 year later, we choose to come back together. On the other hand, I have no negative feelings about the idea of her going out and doing this now - I think I'm over the relationship to the extent that this wouldn't bother me.

In general, she can't conceive of why I'm refusing physical contact with her...

Her behavior is extremely erratic, one minute sobbing with tears, the next minute in rage, the next claiming innocence, etc. She's going through a lot of course.
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« Reply #152 on: August 21, 2021, 03:58:11 PM »

this was her full message

Excerpt
[21/08, 19:52] Honey: I don't really know what am I doing wrong...
...to have stable nervous system require every day time on my own.
I simply love you and the boys. That's all I know and live for now until I loose my family.
Right now it's my job to take care of my family
I love it but it's exhausting


... and a few hours later she's in a rage accusing me of cheating on her...
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« Reply #153 on: August 21, 2021, 04:15:28 PM »

TD, you're doing great. Expect her to be up and down,it isBPD after all. This is where you get to be the emotional leader. Avoid circular conversations about whether you're cheating or not. It is hard for her to see you go out and come home calm and happy. What she doesn't know is that you are learning to love yourself, but she would be just as jealous if she knew. And will make her own choices.  
20 days to get through. You do it one day at a time.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #154 on: August 21, 2021, 04:30:37 PM »

By Monday I need to secure the house by paying one month rent. I think I should go for it. It's only a year contract which is perfect.
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« Reply #155 on: August 21, 2021, 04:32:36 PM »

I think I'm learning to be truthful -



[21/08, 22:53] Honey: You told me in holiday you have many secrets
[21/08, 22:59] : Yes, the sauna was one of them
[21/08, 23:00] : You see, I couldn't trust you to believe in my intentions! In who I truly am now. You still think I'm the guy you met.
[21/08, 23:01] : I'm not that guy.
I have been studying wellness for a long time now.
The benefits of sauna are proven
And, it turns out I judged myself too harshly about my sauna visits 10 years ago
[21/08, 23:02] : Yes a part of me went at that time to look at and meet women... But what I failed to recognize at that time, due to my harsh self judgments, was the experience of wellness I was feeling there
[21/08, 23:03] : I now go for wellness, and my primary purpose ironically IS NOT the sauna. Its the cold water
[21/08, 23:04] : The therapeutic benefits of sauna are strong. The therapeutic benefits of extreme cold are immense
[21/08, 23:04] : Cold water balanced the nervous system in an instant
[21/08, 23:13] : My other 'secrets' are the fact that my phone is blocked
[21/08, 23:14] : Because I can't trust you to look at messages from my family due to the risk of you being triggered into anger
[21/08, 23:15] : I can't trust you not to read personal notes that I keep on my phone, because your philosophy is that a couple should reveal everything to each other
[21/08, 23:15] Honey: I need time and process all
[21/08, 23:16]  Quite frankly that belief is not healthy. It's perfectly normal to keep things private in an adult relationship
[21/08, 23:16] : Adults are secure enough to allow space and privacy
[21/08, 23:17] : Ironically the fact that they ALLOW each other space and privacy, creates the TRUST necessary for a healthy relationship
[21/08, 23:17] : The fact is that you proved to me over and over again that I should lock my phone
[21/08, 23:17] : You searched through my emails, my notes, etc. You don't understand boundaries
[21/08, 23:18]  Therefore, I don't want physical contact because you have very little respect for my desire to have private space, which is HEALTHY for ADULTS
[21/08, 23:20]  Once you respect the fact that you have walked all over me with disrespect for so many years, you will RESPECT the fact that I don't want physical touch, AND you may even appreciate that there is a lesson for you there = just because we share children DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE UNLIMITED ACCESS TO ME
[21/08, 23:22]  Just because a couple are married does NOT MEAN they are required to give physical contact just because the other wants it. And that's how you operate, you seem to believe it's my obligation to hug you or touch you. NO THANKS, NOT WHEN YOU CALL ME EVIL, STUPID, IDIOT, ETC. the day before!
[21/08, 23:22] : You won't keep people in your life by treating them that way!
[21/08, 23:24] : And there I walk in the house to be accused of cheating. I understand you, but you are completely incorrect, unless you would believe that visiting a wellness establishment is cheating. And if so, I'd only say I'm sorry, I do not share your belief
[21/08, 23:25] : And given the stress I'm under, the constant attack, the massive shifts from declarations of love to attacks on my character, I have EVERY RIGHT to take care of myself
[21/08, 23:25] Honey: Ok I hear you
[21/08, 23:25] : I get my hugs from ice water. There are many ways to get hugs. Don't rely on me UNTIL you prove yourself able to control yourself and be KIND.
[21/08, 23:25] Honey: I need time to process all
[21/08, 23:26] : I said sorry for many
[21/08, 23:26]  Until then, GO get your hugs from massage. I'll pay it
[21/08, 23:26] : I don't want to hear any more I love you, sorry, sorry, I love you
[21/08, 23:27] Honey: Ok
[21/08, 23:27] : You are a great Soul, but your human side needs professional help, urgently
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« Reply #156 on: August 21, 2021, 05:10:01 PM »

TD, you're doing great. Expect her to be up and down,it isBPD after all. This is where you get to be the emotional leader. Avoid circular conversations about whether you're cheating  :hug:or not. It is hard for her to see you go out and come home calm and happy. What she doesn't know is that you are learning to love yourself, but she would be just as jealous if she knew. And will make her own choices.  
20 days to get through. You do it one day at a time.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)


Thanks  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
One day at a time
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« Reply #157 on: August 22, 2021, 06:20:07 AM »

She took a lot of money from my account without asking. Also blocked my path this morning as I wanted to leave the house.

I've let her know that all conversations between us are recorded now. I don't feel safe.

I've emailed my lawyer. I am picking up it may be best to go for full custody immediately. Nothing I ever imagined, but her behaviour is erratic.

With the boys I thought we might just reach a mutual agreement. That was probably naive... Maybe best to get lawyer involved
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« Reply #158 on: August 22, 2021, 08:00:20 AM »

Perhaps the hardest is her behaviour with the boys.

My heart was shining for my 4 year old who was on the stage at a fun park. He was constantly asking for her. He wanted to be seen by her. I wrote her and she replied


[22/08, 14:41] : he asks for you
[22/08, 14:41]  A lot
[22/08, 14:41] : He wants you to SEE HIM
[22/08, 14:41] : He is constantly searching for you
[22/08, 14:42] : WHERE ARE YOU
[22/08, 14:42] : Come right now to honor him
[22/08, 14:43] : Is your last chance
[22/08, 14:43] : Before it finishes
[22/08, 14:43] Honey: I don't have energy to share happiness with him. It pulls me more down
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« Reply #159 on: August 22, 2021, 08:01:03 AM »

Is she manipulating me my dishonoring her children?
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« Reply #160 on: August 22, 2021, 10:21:53 AM »

She is doing everything she can to try and manipulate you to return to how things used to be. Likely part of it is just lashing out without thinking because she is angry and part of it is intentional.

This is typical when PwBPD feel they can no longer control their partners. You’re familiar with extinction bursts? You’re experiencing one right now.
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« Reply #161 on: August 22, 2021, 10:47:43 AM »

IMHO, I think it's time to stop these emotional exchanges by text. Terms like "honoring him" are so emotionally laden. He's 4. He wants what he wants. He has no idea if mom went to the store or has walked out on him. The child is fine, but the drama between the two of you is not going to be solved by this tone of texts. Kids don't comprehend concepts like "honor". That issue is with the two of you and you are using the child as a background.


He's 4, at the playground with his dad, having fun. How about let him be?

If his mother chooses to walk away from her own child, that's very sad. But it's her choice and if she did that, your job would be to help mitigate the effect on the child, not control her or discuss it with her through texts.

With BPD it's more likely an up and down thing. My BPD mother will get angry, tell me she won't speak to me, then tells me she won't send the grandkids presents on their birthdays. Two weeks later she's on the phone asking me what they want for their birthdays as if what she said didn't happen. Time will tell with your children's mother.

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« Reply #162 on: August 22, 2021, 11:05:18 AM »

She is doing everything she can to try and manipulate you to return to how things used to be. Likely part of it is just lashing out without thinking because she is angry and part of it is intentional.

This is typical when PwBPD feel they can no longer control their partners. You’re familiar with extinction bursts? You’re experiencing one right now.

Thanks so much
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« Reply #163 on: August 22, 2021, 11:11:00 AM »

IMHO, I think it's time to stop these emotional exchanges by text. Terms like "honoring him" are so emotionally laden. He's 4. He wants what he wants. He has no idea if mom went to the store or has walked out on him. The child is fine, but the drama between the two of you is not going to be solved by this tone of texts. Kids don't comprehend concepts like "honor". That issue is with the two of you and you are using the child as a background.


He's 4, at the playground with his dad, having fun. How about let him be?

If his mother chooses to walk away from her own child, that's very sad. But it's her choice and if she did that, your job would be to help mitigate the effect on the child, not control her or discuss it with her through texts.

With BPD it's more likely an up and down thing. My BPD mother will get angry, tell me she won't speak to me, then tells me she won't send the grandkids presents on their birthdays. Two weeks later she's on the phone asking me what they want for their birthdays as if what she said didn't happen. Time will tell with your children's mother.



Thanks Notwendy, I hear you. I understand and agree that those messages have been emotionally laden.

It is true that I felt sad. On my 12 step meeting, the guidance came that the sadness in that moment is mine to love. To remember not to project, to love what arises within.

I did honestly wish to give her the chance. He was on the stage constantly looking for her and asking where mummy. My heart was in pain to see it. I just shone as much pride and love to him as I could and later shone that same love unto the little boy in me that projected sadness. The word honour was used to try to influence her to wake up, to remember that this is a child... But it's pointless to try to change her. On the other hand, it's another evidence, if I do need to use lawyer, of her inconsistent love.

We communicate better with texts. Obviously, that's a sign of how terrible our communication truly is. The only way to send a message and hope it's received is by writing. Real time conversations are hopeless. Texts also serve in the sense that they're recorded. From today onwards though I'm recording all our conversations and she is aware of the fact.
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« Reply #164 on: August 22, 2021, 11:16:32 AM »

Based on my descriptions, does it sound best to engage a lawyer immediately?
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« Reply #165 on: August 22, 2021, 11:47:43 AM »

Based on my descriptions, does it sound best to engage a lawyer immediately?

YES!

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« Reply #166 on: August 22, 2021, 11:59:02 AM »

YES!



Thanks Cat. I've emailed him and will talk by phone with him tomorrow
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« Reply #167 on: August 22, 2021, 01:43:30 PM »

He was on the stage constantly looking for her and asking where mummy. My heart was in pain to see it.


And that is your pain. How long has it been since he saw her? Not long. He may not be in pain, but you are, and that is yours to manage. Calling your wife to come see him to relieve his pain is actually calling her to relieve your pain.

Certainly if she's not going to engage at all with him, this is going to be very hard but at the moment it hasn't been long. Children at play school sometimes cry for their mommies. The school does not call the parent to come immediately to relieve the child's distress. They reassure the child that they will be OK, distract them with a toy and often the child runs off to play.

Regardless of what their mother does, it is likely the kids and you would benefit from some counseling to adjust. It's important to not invalidate their feelings. If he says he misses his mom, "Yes, I understand you miss Mommy and you are sad". Calling her to come change this is blaming her and that isn't going to go over well with her. Hopefully she will agree to some sort of visiting, if possible. Then you can say "I understand you miss Mommy. You will get to see her on Wednesday" and even have a calendar to count the days. If she truly doesn't want to be in their lives at all, that is hard for them, then you will need to deal with that.

I agree with the lawyer consultation.



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« Reply #168 on: August 22, 2021, 03:00:02 PM »

He was on the stage constantly looking for her and asking where mummy. My heart was in pain to see it.


And that is your pain. How long has it been since he saw her? Not long. He may not be in pain, but you are, and that is yours to manage. Calling your wife to come see him to relieve his pain is actually calling her to relieve your pain.

Certainly if she's not going to engage at all with him, this is going to be very hard but at the moment it hasn't been long. Children at play school sometimes cry for their mommies. The school does not call the parent to come immediately to relieve the child's distress. They reassure the child that they will be OK, distract them with a toy and often the child runs off to play.

Regardless of what their mother does, it is likely the kids and you would benefit from some counseling to adjust. It's important to not invalidate their feelings. If he says he misses his mom, "Yes, I understand you miss Mommy and you are sad". Calling her to come change this is blaming her and that isn't going to go over well with her. Hopefully she will agree to some sort of visiting, if possible. Then you can say "I understand you miss Mommy. You will get to see her on Wednesday" and even have a calendar to count the days. If she truly doesn't want to be in their lives at all, that is hard for them, then you will need to deal with that.

I agree with the lawyer consultation.





Thanks Notwendy, I understand, it's very true and accurate. I'm grateful. I'll be aware of this. It is a great idea to find counselling for all of us.
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« Reply #169 on: August 22, 2021, 03:04:14 PM »

Yeah... I just tuned into a layer of sadness. Since I'm suppressing it, I'm anxious about it when I "see it" (project it) onto the boys. I guess this is a thick layer of sadness to be aware of, accept and allow within myself, parenting myself and if I see it in the boys, to be accepting of it in them too
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« Reply #170 on: August 22, 2021, 03:39:11 PM »

It’s devastating to have a parent that’s a pwBPD. People with BPD are far more self absorbed and interested in their own personal emotional discomfort to be fully present for a child. That’s just fact. Some can summon up the energy to do that on occasion, but they are not a reliable emotional support for a child.

This is what you’re dealing with and it’s unfortunate but you have the ability to be your children’s protector and source of strength and comfort. That’s something.
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« Reply #171 on: August 22, 2021, 06:51:43 PM »

She took a lot of money from my account without asking. Also blocked my path this morning as I wanted to leave the house.

I'm concluding this is not typical?  Many here reported accounts raided when nearing the possible end of a relationship.  Partly it can be retaliation or punishment, as in you're paying for this one way or another.  It can also be about control, Look what I can do and you can't stop me.  A ton of self-interest and a get-the-money-while-I-can attitude.

The problem with joint accounts is they don't work when the parties aren't in agreement.  Typically the more reasonably normal person gets sabotaged.  For example, you may feel it is for joint agreed expenses, that it's more like 50/50.  You may even feel it's 50% yours.  Yet you're reluctant to withdraw your 50% even if you put in more than that.  On the other hand, a disordered person who is more driven by self-interest will perceive that it all can be taken - entitlement - then little justification is needed to raid the account.

Probably smart to stop funding joint accounts.  Open personal accounts for yourself where you maintain full control.  You can move some money from there to the existing joint account for joint expenses but only as needed.  Warning:  If she isn't the main provider for the family's finances, then this change - which won't harm the family finances - will trigger more rants and rages, demands and ultimatums.
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« Reply #172 on: August 23, 2021, 11:34:26 AM »

It’s devastating to have a parent that’s a pwBPD. People with BPD are far more self absorbed and interested in their own personal emotional discomfort to be fully present for a child. That’s just fact. Some can summon up the energy to do that on occasion, but they are not a reliable emotional support for a child.

This is what you’re dealing with and it’s unfortunate but you have the ability to be your children’s protector and source of strength and comfort. That’s something.

Thanks, Cat.
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« Reply #173 on: August 23, 2021, 11:41:02 AM »

I'm concluding this is not typical?  Many here reported accounts raided when nearing the possible end of a relationship.  Partly it can be retaliation or punishment, as in you're paying for this one way or another.  It can also be about control, Look what I can do and you can't stop me.  A ton of self-interest and a get-the-money-while-I-can attitude.

The problem with joint accounts is they don't work when the parties aren't in agreement.  Typically the more reasonably normal person gets sabotaged.  For example, you may feel it is for joint agreed expenses, that it's more like 50/50.  You may even feel it's 50% yours.  Yet you're reluctant to withdraw your 50% even if you put in more than that.  On the other hand, a disordered person who is more driven by self-interest will perceive that it all can be taken - entitlement - then little justification is needed to raid the account.

Probably smart to stop funding joint accounts.  Open personal accounts for yourself where you maintain full control.  You can move some money from there to the existing joint account for joint expenses but only as needed.  Warning:  If she isn't the main provider for the family's finances, then this change - which won't harm the family finances - will trigger more rants and rages, demands and ultimatums.

Hey ForeverDad, thanks for your support.
It was my debit card and I lent it to her for some shopping. She used it during that time period to grab some money. She's normally generally trustable with money, with the exception of the fact that she has never ever told me the amount of money in her bank account, I think for control purposes.

She indirectly gave me the money back (a pile of cash) by leaving it on the kitchen desk. I think she did this due to the clarity with which I called her out on it. It was, in essence, stealing.

I'm sure it won't happen again, and I'm setting limits on withdrawals to a much lower level, in case she does try it again.

Why would my EXPWBPD withhold information for so many years regarding her bank account? We've always used my money, I've spent so much on her and us that I have very little savings. Meanwhile, I think she's sitting on a pile of cash as security rather than investing it into the family and for daily purposes including vacations - which I always pay for.

Over time I got more and more cautious about the amounts I'm giving her.

Today I sent the desposit to secure my flat rental. One year contract, perfect location, big 95m2 with a children's room already setup! Perfect place for home office.
In process of getting in contact with my lawyer, who I couldn't speak to today as he was in court.

At this point I'm uncertain of going for full custody. I don't know if I"m naive, but I sense there is a part of her that wants to sort out her behaviour. Please tell me if it's obvious that I"m naive.
HOwever, I will be using LAWYER as a MEDIATOR for the coming arrangements, because her erratic behavior is untrustable and I would NOT be able to trust her to stick to her side of her agreements. Add to that, coming to any form of agreement would be impossible without a mediator.
We need help to get something written down and signed, so that she would remain accountable. Otherwise I'm further risking my job security.
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« Reply #174 on: August 23, 2021, 02:16:52 PM »

I’m glad you’ve got a place for yourself and the boys and are involving an attorney. As you’ve experienced, she is not trustworthy. You will soon have a safe place for yourself and your children. With safety, comes clarity.
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« Reply #175 on: August 23, 2021, 03:09:27 PM »

WHY would she withhold financial info? It's probably futile to speculate on why with a pwBPD. The reality is that she does, she always has, and she probably always will. Therefore, you must, going forward, protect yourself in financial matters.
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« Reply #176 on: August 23, 2021, 04:39:42 PM »

Your lawyer should give you local legal advice as well as additional strategies.  Here's a post I made a couple years ago, I edited out the parts that likely don't apply in your scenario.

I recall my lawyer — very experienced and good at hearings and trial — wimped out at the temporary order hearing.  He just let the magistrate do the standard actions, defaulting mother to temp custody and temp majority time... My lawyer whispered to me, "Shh.  Don't say anything, we'll fix it later." 

Guess what that "we'll fix it later" meant?  My lawyer had previously estimated our case would take 7-9 months.  No, it was nearly two years, ex forced us to check mark every step along the way including a Custody Evaluation!  And neither magistrate, judge or lawyers ever adjusted the temp order, the fixes were in the final decree.

Okay, I admit, one reason nothing much was presented in the initial divorce hearing was that only a half hour was allocated for it.  For others facing this, I encourage two things to make wise use of the limited time allotted.

First, list the issues and concerns simply and clearly in writing, including that you seek substantial parenting authority and scheduled parenting time.  Have at least 3 copies with you, one for the court and one for each party.  They may not act on it but it gets the issues "on the record".  In my belief, that's important since you may get a different court official for future hearings.  The court may be reluctant since it seems to try not to put much that is 'actionable' on the record.

Second, try to make a brief statement "on the record" — is it being recorded? — even if only a minute.  Something like... "Your honor... I have been an involved (stay at home) parent until now...  I request to remain substantively involved as father and parent to my children.  I do have serious concerns about my spouse's extreme actions and parenting behaviors.  I believe I am the best to provide stable custodial and parenting care.  Should the court be reluctant at this time, then I can work with some sort of Decision Making or Tie Breaker status while we jointly provide care for our child."

Well, something like that.  My early hearings were all my ex's allegations and responses to my ex's allegations.  What I saw as practical solutions were never addressed or put on the record...Court pays much more attention to parenting concerns than adult relationship (marital) concerns.)

Another point, give the parenting issues priority.  That's the focus here, parenting... Don't get sidetracked (on things the court won't see as urgent or connected to parenting).
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« Reply #177 on: August 25, 2021, 07:15:45 AM »

I might be crazy, but there's still a part of me holding on.

I wonder what you think of the following scenario:

Having my new flat (which I've started paying for, but not able to move in yet), as a place for work, as a place for childcare, but agreeing with my ex-partner that the boys continue to have their current home as "base." Their place to sleep.

The extra place for childcare fits in because she has always refused entry of a nanny into her home. This in turn has impacted my job. Since I'm starting a new job, I can't allow it to be impacted anymore. Therefore, I can invite nanny's over and have them look after the boys at my "home office flat."

The fact that I'm renting another space will indicate to her that I'm really on "the way" to potentially leaving for good, but there is still a part of me that hopes, if she'll make significant changes, we can make it work. I would promise her I would not engage in sexuality with other women, friendships or partners.

We would in essence be in large part keeping the current system running, such that it doesn't impact the boys so much. They would still feel that their current home is their home. They would still feel my presence in their home and my protective energy. They would have the excitement of a new space with a nanny, so that when my older son is sick and can't go to school, my job is NOT impacted. This would lower my stress levels tremendously.

Additionally, if her behavior gets out of hand, rather than leaving the house and ambling around in the cold winter, I could go to my own flat, my safe space.

Is there any problem with this thinking, this potential setup?

I feel like it could be a good small step in either the direction that we fully split, whilst making it less of an emotional shock for her and the children that Daddy no longer sleeps in her home.

In terms of the current sleeping setup (one boy with each of us), this feels helpful too, becuase I need to help them at bedtime.

As an added bonus, my family of origin could visit and have free accommodation. I could watch how my ex-partner is with them, still giving her the opportunity to see them and be with them and spend time with them.


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« Reply #178 on: August 25, 2021, 07:36:12 AM »

This is my idea, to email her this:

Hello

I want to see how things go over the next year. I won't be meeting anyone new, engaging friendships with other women, or having physical contact with other women.

The reason is because I want to see if we can survive. I want to see if it can get better.


Therefore, I would hope you can agree on your side to not engage with the same with other men.


I have rented another apartment. I want to agree the following with you if possible:


•   I will work from the new apartment; it would reduce travel time significantly over the next year
•   When our older son gets sick, you would have less of a load and I would have less stress, because I would be able to hire a nanny to help look after him at my apartment (it will take our younger son several months to establish in his school full time, so it will continue to be very tiring for you when both of them are at home, and it always impacts my job)
•   When you feel angry and you engage in name calling etc., I would use my apartment to rest until things calm down
•   The boys would continue to sleep in their current home
•   I would continue to help in the evenings after work, and at bedtime, and I would sleep in your home. I may spend the odd night for sleeping here and there after the boys are already asleep, in my apartment
•   I would continue to take the boys to school, before going to work from home from my apartment
•   The boys would not know about this situation. They will see the new flat as my office, only. On the occasion that M is sick and you are tired, or that you are tired and you want time alone in your flat away from both the boys, I would take them to my apartment and where needed, I would get a nanny to help at my apartment
•   I want to protect the boys still from the idea that we are separating. Because I want to see if we can make it. I do not believe we can make it in the current track, and things are not changing fast enough for me,  therefore I need to change the track by establishing this new apartment
•   I will continue to use the car, separately and together with you and boys for trips, shopping, etc., it will continue to be "our car" and I won't buy a new one yet
•   Our families of origin would not need to be provided details of our personal situation and why we have the other flat - they may not even know it unless my family comes to visit and you don’t want them to stay in your flat
•   I will continue to go with you to your home town or drop you off there with the boys before picking you up again
•   You will when you're ready over the next year, let me know the details of your bank account, if you would like us to have the potential to share a loving family with openness and transparency going forward… right now I feel that we’re using ALL my money so that I have VERY LITTLE SAVINGS, while you’re sitting on millions with ownership of both the flat and car, which puts me in a very precarious situation
•   If it looks like things don't turn out well, then I'd engage a professional mediator to help us formally separate so that we have a formal agreement regarding childcare and accountability
During this time, I have no demands... only to see if we can grow close again, by re-establishing what is healthy adult privacy and space, where both of us from our hearts are aligned with each other. I want to see if we can be emotionally and physically attracted to each other again. Like I said recently, for me to feel that way, I need to stop being called names, and I need you to lower your stress levels.

You're welcome to lower your stress levels however you wish - massage, meditation, therapy, etc. I have no demands and I have no desire for couples counselling. I just need to feel that I am an independent man in love with an independent woman with whom we share children.

I am so tired that I need this space... I can't function without it. I just hope you'll continue to work together to heal, by respecting my individual needs, desires and feelings. Once I feel I can be myself, safely, perhaps we can live together again.
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« Reply #179 on: August 25, 2021, 07:42:23 AM »

I'm a little bit back-tracking on the full custody thing. I don't know why.
I still want to see if it can work out with her. I don't know if this is mad. I know I can't continue in the current setup where I have no safe place to relax, where she's in control of literally everything and she expects me to be a puppet for her stress reduction.
Yet I still want to see... there's part of me still holding on to the idea that she can change, that she actually wants to change.
Am I mad?
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« Reply #180 on: August 25, 2021, 08:13:29 AM »

I don't know about the other aspects but the stay away from other women (for now) is important whether or not you stay with your current partner. Entering a new relationship while you still have emotional work to do with the current one is risky for more dysfunction.

It's your relationship, and we as outsiders can't decide on whether to stay or leave. It's really up to you to decide how you wish to proceed.
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« Reply #181 on: August 25, 2021, 08:18:07 AM »

I don't know about the other aspects but the stay away from other women (for now) is important whether or not you stay with your current partner. Entering a new relationship while you still have emotional work to do with the current one is risky for more dysfunction.

It's your relationship, and we as outsiders can't decide on whether to stay or leave. It's really up to you to decide how you wish to proceed.

Thanks Notwendy.

Learning the art of self-trust and living a self-directed life. It's tough... Accountability for one's decisions. I'm just learning to be an adult, hehe.

Yes, no intention to enter into another relationship.

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« Reply #182 on: August 25, 2021, 08:34:56 AM »

My unconscious is holding on. There's just this feeling in me, which I'm both aware of and frustrated by. On another level I wish I did not continue to hold on to and be subject to her toxic behavior. I get so tired by it. Why do I put myself through it unconsciously?
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« Reply #183 on: August 25, 2021, 09:57:49 AM »

Talked to my sponsor. Feel less confused now.
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« Reply #184 on: August 25, 2021, 10:28:05 AM »

Let me say up front that we understand where you're coming from.  You're trying to find a middle ground and hoping your partner will agree.  But that's your emotions hoping that appeasing her can work.  This is more than "I need a quiet place so I can work."

I wrote more but deleted it since it seems you may be inclined to stay in the relationship.  Or find it so stressful to decide.  What you're contemplating is having one foot still in the relationship.  The downside is that lets her continue to pressure you by her inconsistent moods and rules.

I also deleted what I was going to write about my own experiences but it got really complicated.  So I'll summarize.  In brief, two people can't be in a healthy close relationship if it is also a dysfunctional one.  Healthy and dysfunctional aren't compatible.  It can't be like two guys who are buddies or two gals who chat together or go shopping together.

You are in the middle of scenarios where she bounces between hating you and seeking intimacy with you.  It seems your change is only helping with your work and daycare, all the other pressures would continue to exist.  For example, no need to say the kids still sleep there (item 4) if you're going to sleep there too.  Actually, it would imply she's in charge of parenting and could sabotage you in the future.

Edit:  I just read your sponsor spoke with you.  In what ways are you less confused?

I too wanted my relationship, my marriage, to succeed.  I believed failure was not an option.  Same here, just about everyone here tried to make things work in their own relationships.  Dealing with acting-out disordered people is a monumental challenge.
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« Reply #185 on: August 25, 2021, 11:25:46 AM »

Let me say up front that we understand where you're coming from.  You're trying to find a middle ground and hoping your partner will agree.  But that's your emotions hoping that appeasing her can work.  This is more than "I need a quiet place so I can work."

I wrote more but deleted it since it seems you may be inclined to stay in the relationship.  Or find it so stressful to decide.  What you're contemplating is having one foot still in the relationship.  The downside is that lets her continue to pressure you by her inconsistent moods and rules.

I also deleted what I was going to write about my own experiences but it got really complicated.  So I'll summarize.  In brief, two people can't be in a healthy close relationship if it is also a dysfunctional one.  Healthy and dysfunctional aren't compatible.  It can't be like two guys who are buddies or two gals who chat together or go shopping together.

You are in the middle of scenarios where she bounces between hating you and seeking intimacy with you.  It seems your change is only helping with your work and daycare, all the other pressures would continue to exist.  For example, no need to say the kids still sleep there (item 4) if you're going to sleep there too.  Actually, it would imply she's in charge of parenting and could sabotage you in the future.

Edit:  I just read your sponsor spoke with you.  In what ways are you less confused?

I too wanted my relationship, my marriage, to succeed.  I believed failure was not an option.  Same here, just about everyone here tried to make things work in their own relationships.  Dealing with acting-out disordered people is a monumental challenge.

Thank you ForeverDad.

Your post brings me more clarity.

This one foot in, one foot out... the source of it is this hope... being afraid of giving up on the "dream" of it working and re-establishing myself by stepping out of my comfort zone. I think it's just fear I'm dealing with. Fear of making the step into unfamiliar territory.

I am certain I tried everything to fix things over many years. I'm certain that the ultimate solution is to distance myself. So, perhaps this "hope" that I'm experiencing is just on the surface, and deep down I just need to confront my fears. Fear of what the children will feel. Fear of losing the "dream" that it could have worked out. Fear that I'm just "crazy" and it's all made up in my head.

Writing this is really helpful for me... helps me recontextualize "hope." I've heard it said that there are, ultimately, only two emotions: love and fear. Through this lens, I'm just fearful of stepping out into the unknown. I just realized that there is fear of the being the primary caregiver - fear of not having the "mother" there. Wow... there's a certain comfort in having her next to me, despite how hurtful and dysfunctional her behavior is.

To summarize... I figure I'm just dealing with fear! Because I know I tried everything, I KNOW I'm not happy, I know I want change, etc. These are the things I KNOW. The rest is just fear expressing itself.

My sponsor helped me a lot by reexamining everything that has happened. He's good at seeing the essence of things, and sees her behavior as it is and her unwillingness to change and heal.

This has been such a helpful reflection... it's all fear... I'm dealing with my own fears here... beyond fear there is only happiness at the idea of moving away from her.
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« Reply #186 on: August 25, 2021, 01:00:05 PM »

Take a deep breath and stop. Don’t send this until you think about it. Get feedback from parents who’ve been through separations, divorce, and custody disputes.

Take your time. Think deeply how this might impact your future. Sleep on it. Do not act in haste.
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« Reply #187 on: August 25, 2021, 01:16:54 PM »

Take a deep breath and stop. Don’t send this until you think about it. Get feedback from parents who’ve been through separations, divorce, and custody disputes.

Take your time. Think deeply how this might impact your future. Sleep on it. Do not act in haste.

Thank you Cat. I'll work slowly and cautiously.

Haven't said anything to her yet.

Since I recognize this continued sort of toxic hope is unconscious fear, I feel more ready.

Ill wait before I say anything.
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« Reply #188 on: August 25, 2021, 02:58:52 PM »

She wants to go to the mountains this weekend and I don't want to go. She's threatening to take our younger son by car and therefore separate the boys.

I don't want her to take him but I'm not sure what I can do.
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« Reply #189 on: August 25, 2021, 03:38:13 PM »

What about separating the boys bothers you? Won’t that be a regular occurrence when the older one is in school?
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« Reply #190 on: August 25, 2021, 03:48:01 PM »

What about separating the boys bothers you? Won’t that be a regular occurrence when the older one is in school?

I don't know why it bothers me. Maybe I should revise my thought on this...

She isn't an experienced driver but that's not what bothers me as much as her willingness to separate them when they enjoy each others company so much. But yeah, they are often separated when he's at school, except for evenings.

She'll likely tell the older one that he can't come because daddy doesn't want to.
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« Reply #191 on: August 25, 2021, 03:57:18 PM »

She started saying things like I have a sick brain, that I'm unstable due to changes in medication, etc.

Everything she said was scary because I see she'd be willing to use anything, and avoid any and all self reflection.

Everything she said about me was a reflection of her. It was pure gaslighting, trying to get me to doubt my own mind and experiences, telling me I'm 100% the problem.
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« Reply #192 on: August 25, 2021, 04:21:05 PM »

So now that you’ve heard that, how does it affect your thought of sending her that email?
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« Reply #193 on: August 25, 2021, 04:42:59 PM »

DearTD, you want to protect the boys from the pain of your separation,  you want her to change. You are afraid of bring a single father.
The boy you want to protect is your inner child.  Loving yourself is the way out of this bind the day you decide you are worthy of peace in the home.. I find when I act really dysfunctionally I am acting out a story from my inner child that the adult me has silenced. As I make my peace with it the repetition compulsion loses its power over me.
Your wife will not change without therapy. She doesn't want therapy. To imagine she will is magical thinking. I want to see her go to the mountains alone with a child.Long on talk, short on action (helping herself to your money seems to be her only consistent action). You can't change her, only your response to her behaviour.  
In the meantime does she rage at you in front of the boys? Is that their daily reality? Your tiredness is real. Amygdala hijack, cortisol overload, and then the tiredness as your body seeks to emerge from flight or fight state.  Chronic PTSD is real, and for your boys a normal state of being, like it was for you when little.  Only you can break the generational cycle.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #194 on: August 26, 2021, 05:36:43 AM »

So now that you’ve heard that, how does it affect your thought of sending her that email?

It's horrible... and it makes me want to separate completely.

And yet, here she writes this morning, that she reached out to my sponsor (without telling me) and feels like she's on the "right path."

"I know I called you many times by bad names. I know I did say bad things about your family of origin. I know things went wrong many times. I do not want to excuse myself but I was in my lower energy self.
Also there were lots of things beautiful. I really deeply love you and care for you. I really want to fix the relationship with your family of origin.
Please let me show you that I am not the kind of person I used to be. I was inoccently uneducated in this regard. Please forgive me.
I see you do not trust me anymore. It is very painful.
I am very much prepared to take charge with the boys during days when you need to work and heal yourself. Also when they are sick I will be there for them.
The control dynamic - withholding resources, information about money. I want to get a help with resolving the finances. That both of us feel comfortable about. That there is no hiding and withdrawing from any sides.
It very much hurts because I am always here for you! I surrender the holidays although it would give me tremendous energy that I can give you and the boys.
I love to give you energy and the boys. I know my energy very much drops down recently from all the tremor when I know what is going on and still do not know. I love to serve you and to the boys.
I hit the bottom that I had to receive help. Thanks to introduce me to your sponsor. I feel I am on the right path.
I need to be with myself and reflect on what have I done and what to improve. Please keep this flat. This is yours and boys home. My intuition is to leave for a while. You can get a nanny or any necessary help. You do not have to pay for extra flat."


My reflections:
She says she'd leave for a while but she has nowhere to go. So it's not a solution. Therefore I should rent the flat, which I am already doing anyway. She makes the promise to look after the boys - yes, but in the moment she's stressed, all her promises fly out of the window. I can't trust it.

I think there's a small part of her that is open to growth. She's obviously struggling. Yet, when she starts splitting, there's complete loss of memory of the part of her that is writing that email.
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« Reply #195 on: August 26, 2021, 05:41:00 AM »

DearTD, you want to protect the boys from the pain of your separation,  you want her to change. You are afraid of bring a single father.
The boy you want to protect is your inner child.  Loving yourself is the way out of this bind the day you decide you are worthy of peace in the home.. I find when I act really dysfunctionally I am acting out a story from my inner child that the adult me has silenced. As I make my peace with it the repetition compulsion loses its power over me.

Thank you... it's good to remember this is about my inner child that needs love and understanding and guidance.

Excerpt
Your wife will not change without therapy. She doesn't want therapy. To imagine she will is magical thinking. I want to see her go to the mountains alone with a child.Long on talk, short on action (helping herself to your money seems to be her only consistent action). You can't change her, only your response to her behaviour.  

Yes, she didn't go to the mountains. It was all talk. As soon as I left the flat last night (slept in a hotel), she shifted from the splitting into exhaustion... In that exhausted state she can't do anything...

Excerpt
In the meantime does she rage at you in front of the boys? Is that their daily reality? Your tiredness is real. Amygdala hijack, cortisol overload, and then the tiredness as your body seeks to emerge from flight or fight state.  Chronic PTSD is real, and for your boys a normal state of being, like it was for you when little.  Only you can break the generational cycle.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Over time her raging has improved, but her stress and quiet manipulating and gaslighting has not changed. It's hard to be around her. I struggle to focus at work because I'm pretty much always recovering from what's going on with her.
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« Reply #196 on: August 26, 2021, 05:57:54 AM »

I wrote to her:

With Kindness and Respect, I tell you honestly: your mental health condition is such that intimacy with you is not possible at this point in time.

Your emotional states fluctuate very frequently from self-righteous anger and rage, to exhaustion and grief, to passivity. There is also YOU. You the Soul - the real you. I interact with the real you now and again, but over 75% of your behaviour is caught up in the energies in bold.

You do have a mental health condition that is associated with childhood trauma. The major sign of this is your intense levels of stress - your stress is easily triggered; your sympathetic nervous system is active most of the time. A big part of your healing will be about activating your parasympathetic nervous system.

There is nothing wrong with mental health conditions. I have ADHD and OCD. You have BPD - Borderline Personality Disorder. You have the high-functioning sub-type.

Without accepting that you have this condition, and exploring how to heal it, with proper mental health care and assistance, I can't continue in a relationship with you.

We have no emotional intimacy because if I get to close, you push away. As I get to far away, you come closer. It's the Disorganized attachment style that arises from childhood trauma.

Healing is a long-term journey. It's not a bunch of promises made by email. To commit to your healing is the most courageous thing you'll ever do. I can't trust most of the things you say in this email, because I know that once the trauma energies are active in your body, all the promises fly out of the window.

I say all of this with love and respect... you are a great person. A great Soul. You're a Leader and a Compassionate Mother. Yet you urgently need to work on yourself, with professionals and experienced healers... if you want to fulfil your potential, and increase the likelihood of your sons fulfilling their potential.
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« Reply #197 on: August 26, 2021, 06:50:57 AM »

I wrote to her:

hello truthdevotee -

did you already send this?    or is this something you wrote out for yourself and us here?


there are two types of knowledge -  the stuff we keep to ourselves.    the type that is useful for us to understand and learn.      and the type that is helpful to share.


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« Reply #198 on: August 26, 2021, 07:12:01 AM »

hello truthdevotee -

did you already send this?    or is this something you wrote out for yourself and us here?


there are two types of knowledge -  the stuff we keep to ourselves.    the type that is useful for us to understand and learn.      and the type that is helpful to share.




I sent it... I was thinking, if I don't say it, then maybe no one ever will. And if she's truly open to growing, maybe it's worth to say what I see as the truth...

Was this a big mistake?
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« Reply #199 on: August 26, 2021, 07:24:12 AM »

I sent it... I was thinking, if I don't say it, then maybe no one ever will. And if she's truly open to growing, maybe it's worth to say what I see as the truth...

Was this a big mistake?

Here is my two cents.     its not our jobs to become amateur psychologists.   we have our perspectives based on our experiences and for sure much of what we see is grounded in well thought out concepts.    that doesn't suggest we take the next step and pour our information and thoughts on some one who struggles to accept reality.    in my opinion, its not a kind thing to do.

sharing this type of information  is not typically helpful.    no matter how many sugary words you coat it in you basically are forcing a bitter pill down someone's throat.   with a corresponding increase in resentment and acting out as a result.

boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.    it is NOT your job to educate her, save her or define how and when she grows.   perhaps it is time to draw some boundaries between her mental health and your actions.   

if I was on the receiving end of an email like this I would be terribly hurt.    and more than a little angry.     
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« Reply #200 on: August 26, 2021, 07:29:48 AM »

Here is my two cents.     its not our jobs to become amateur psychologists.   we have our perspectives based on our experiences and for sure much of what we see is grounded in well thought out concepts.    that doesn't suggest we take the next step and pour our information and thoughts on some one who struggles to accept reality.    in my opinion, its not a kind thing to do.

sharing this type of information  is not typically helpful.    no matter how many sugary words you coat it in you basically are forcing a bitter pill down someone's throat.   with a corresponding increase in resentment and acting out as a result.

boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.    it is NOT your job to educate her, save her or define how and when she grows.   perhaps it is time to draw some boundaries between her mental health and your actions.   

if I was on the receiving end of an email like this I would be terribly hurt.    and more than a little angry.     


Thank you for sharing.

I hear you and agree...

It knew it was tough, but wrote it anyway, I don't know why. I lacked compassion.

I fell into my addiction last night (I watched pornography, after many years of being in recovery), and my mind isn't healthy and clear today.

I'm in just as much need of healing as she is.

And I just got her reply... and I feel I'm being pulled in.

So I need to switch off this amateur therapist and step away again. It's all too much for me. My addiction, the guilt of falling into my addiction, and all this... I can't even focus on my work today.

She wrote:

Excerpt
I am sorry I did not know that about myself but it makes sense to me. Thanks for letting me know. I just wanted so much to know things about me but I did not know how and where to find them. I did not have the capacity to see it within myself. I asked you if you can kindly help many times you always resist to help me. I understand that you are not obliged to do it. I really did not know how to see myself.
I called for help and noone helped. I do my very best every day to be in my role service and helpful.

To get the nanny it is not going to help me to live a fulfilling life. It will be more tiring to navigate her. I am sure I can handle it on my own if I have a healing relationship with you.

We have no emotional intimacy because if I get to close, you push away. As I get to far away, you come closer. It's the Disorganized attachment style that arises from childhood trauma.

I just feel a big regret about above mentioned from you. I do not know about it. I do not see it. But it makes sense because when I found that my mum died I remember to experience a big crash in my life. I knew there will not be anybody who will ever hug me or support me. I missed it a big time all my life. I was honest and open about it to you. I wanted to find a man who can understand my missed need and give it to me.

I feel a deep sadness that you do not love me anymore due to my unhealed past. My heart is in so much pain. It feels like to me that someone break my arm and you say I cannot love you anymore because somebody broke your arm.

You love your family members of origin for who they are and what about me (now mother of your sons) You are too harsh on me. When I mentioned that we have some relationship issue to my dad he literally shouted at me and added that they are not going to help me with the boys although I wanted to give him just the information.

Healing is a long-term journey. It's not a bunch of promises made by email.
This hurts. I just genuinely love you for who you are.

I tried to help you when I knew the little information about your mental health. Probably it was not that helpful might have been opposite but the intention was to help and support you.

I really want my recovery and healing and get help. I have so far no support in this geographical location from anyone.

I am at my very bottom and feel so much pain all around my body. I feel I have no energy to give to my sons.

I feel whatever I write and share with you is useless.

To rent a new flat is very much painful too.

I guess I keep falling into this conversational dynamic with her because I'm only scratching the surface of boundaries, and falling into the rut of old energy and dynamic. I truly want to escape it.

Her email rightly so says that I was harsh... it says that I am abandoning her due to her unhealed past, which triggers my guilt. I crossed a boundary and got myself into unsafe emotional territory. I feel some anger that she makes me responsible to heal her childhood conditioning.

Turns out this was a mistake. Thank you for telling me straight.
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« Reply #201 on: August 26, 2021, 07:37:37 AM »

Feel guilty - lots of guilt running through me today from slipping into my addiction and now from this... getting pulled back into dangerous territory. Both her and I are running on childhood trauma today. Just as she explains, I'm also feeling that deep seated self-loathing in my body today.

I wrote to say sorry, and will stop any further communication today. It's too much for me.

Excerpt
I'm sorry if my email was too harsh. I just wanted to give you the information that might assist on your healing journey. But it may have been too much and harsh. In hindsight, I shouldn't have done it. I'm sorry.
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« Reply #202 on: August 26, 2021, 07:40:49 AM »

I feel so silly.

I'll go to the forest and ask for help from Higher Power.
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« Reply #203 on: August 26, 2021, 07:59:05 AM »

I think my email comes out of subconscious anger with her. That's why the lack of compassion. I subconsciously soothing myself by 'telling her the truth'. Venting my frustration with 'knowledge'.

I'm hit with the guilt when she is essentially blaming me for 'not loving her through her childhood trauma'. I feel the manipulation of this, but also the guilt. It's most likely true it is childhood trauma, yet its true too that we have responsibility to heal ourselves as adults.

I really need help to avoid being controlled by guilt. I stepped too far until the emotional deep end and it appears to complicate things. I suppose best is to let this pass by?
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« Reply #204 on: August 26, 2021, 08:12:02 AM »

I wrote one last thing to her. Now joining a12 Step call to escape my self centeredness addiction, the root of all my troubles.

-

I feel compassion for what you went through in childhood. Truly.

I feel scared and unsafe in the face of some of the behaviour that arises out of the childhood trauma. And I don't know if it's solely childhood trauma or something else.

Our childhood generally influence our adult behaviour.

Our pain from childhood frequently arises as hurtful behaviour towards our closest in adult life.

I am only scratching the surface of healing my own childhood. As an adult I believe I need to take the next right action such that I limit the pain and hurt I give to others due to my own trauma. I also need to give others space to heal themselves.

So this isn't about me not loving or having compassion for you. It's about the pain I am in, in the face of your trauma based behaviour, and acting out my own.

This is why I forgive, because we are, in a way, acting out the things we had no control over. At the same time, when something is too painful for me, I need to step away so I can be my best self everyday.
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« Reply #205 on: August 26, 2021, 11:58:47 AM »

Analyzing ourselves and others can be helpful…up to a point. It’s possible to get over-focused on thinking about the past and not fully inhabiting the present.

This has been referred to as “analysis paralysis”.

How about spending some time with the boys, just enjoying life, nature, the outdoors? Focus on your work and do it as best you can. Give yourself a break from guilt and worry.

Regarding your wife, don’t get into long explanations, just have a civil relationship for now. Forgive yourself. Forgive her.

The important thing is to watch what she does, rather than what she says.
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« Reply #206 on: August 26, 2021, 12:30:52 PM »

Analyzing ourselves and others can be helpful…up to a point. It’s possible to get over-focused on thinking about the past and not fully inhabiting the present.

This has been referred to as “analysis paralysis”.

How about spending some time with the boys, just enjoying life, nature, the outdoors? Focus on your work and do it as best you can. Give yourself a break from guilt and worry.

Regarding your wife, don’t get into long explanations, just have a civil relationship for now. Forgive yourself. Forgive her.

The important thing is to watch what she does, rather than what she says.

Thank you, Cat.

Yes... The boys always help me to return to the present moment.

I reflected and all is well... It was a compassionate email suitable in that moment given all factors. I don't often speak so directly and I've learned over time not to therapize. She says she's grateful for the information and it wasn't hurtful.

Your last sentence is something I'm reminding myself several times a day. This is about action. Just as my flat rental is an action. Change is born through action.

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« Reply #207 on: August 26, 2021, 02:30:56 PM »

My impression is that your message would have been received better (or perceived less problematical) if it had been sent to a reasonably normal person.  That's what you tried but... she's not reasonably normal.  Her mental processing is skewed and that is the both seen and unseen elephant in the room.

We generally advise our newer members to avoid shouting from the rooftops to the other person that a Personality Disorder such as BPD is involved.  It can trigger overreactions, denials, and more.  Yes, you tried to share it alongside your own issues but still.  With tongue-in-cheek I sometimes have referred the situation to us being grownups and others, especially the professionals, not wanting us to Play Doctor.

Many counselors and therapists don't even mention to their patients precisely what they're treating, they just call it therapy sessions.  That's to avoid patients departing in a huff, blaming the therapist and everybody but themselves and never coming back for more sessions.

Don't be too hard on yourself.  What happened, happened.  Look forward.  Today I just read a post by ThanksForPlaying on how boundaries are different when dealing with acting-out _PD that resonated with me and may help with insight.

With non-PD people, boundaries can be kind of fuzzy, and we can work them out with some give and take, discussion of how we feel, etc.

Even things like "being late to drop off the dog" isn't a big deal with non-PD people.  Tell them it was annoying to have to wait, they will apologize for being late, and it won't happen the next time.  For pwBPD, being late this week turns into being super late next week, and then if you say anything about the lateness, it turns into rage.  There's no give and take - it's just constantly pushing boundaries and constant confrontation.

Because of this dynamic, our boundaries can seem odd or strict to non-PD people.  "She was late to drop off the dog so I left and went home" can seem like an "extreme" reaction for non-PD people (you should have waited a few minutes), and then we start questioning ourselves... did I really need to do that?  Maybe that was too extreme...

It's good to have a place to bounce ideas around (here) and friends who can give you an idea of where "normal" boundaries should be set.  Don't try to do it all alone.  It's hard.  Keep posting.
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« Reply #208 on: August 26, 2021, 06:17:12 PM »

TD, you are Ok. I genuinely see the compassion in your letter alongside the anger.  Yes, it is a problem that she will not see it the way you meant it, but that is BPD.
I hear your rage. Because she shys away from doing the work to get well, she is splitting up your family, the very thing you did not want. And on some level you blame yourself.
But hear also what she is saying. She lost a.mother and always wanted a man who could.provide that motherly love.
You cant be her mom,TD. i totally understand why your body has switched off. Her expectations are extreme.
You have been a mother of three for a couple.of years now. It almost broke you. And of course you will feel resentment that you have to try and guilt that you fail. Let yourself off the wheel. You have the power to choose out of this situation. Grant yourself that grace.
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« Reply #209 on: August 27, 2021, 04:41:57 AM »

TD,

When I first started in 12 step groups for co-dependency, it seemed odd to me since I could not identify specific addictions. I was in a room with people addicted to alcohol, drugs- and yet, these are not issues for me.

There was talk of "emotional sobriety" and I didn't quite get it. But I was well aware of how I felt the next day after these emotional exchanges, circular arguments, and then one day realized " this is how it must feel to have a hangover" and it made sense.

People resist the idea of "co-dependency" because many times, they are the least "dependent" in the relationship in terms of earning a living, or functioning in the home. But just like an addict is dependent on the substance they abuse, a co-dependent can have an "addiction" to the dysfunction in the relationship. In a way, you both know how to "invite" each other into an emotional binge. You know when you've done it because you feel emotionally "hung over" the next day.

What do addictions do? They release a bunch of chemical neurotransmitters. So do strong emotions. Consider these emotional emails you are sending. Yes, you want to communicate your feelings and be understood, but she's also having her own emotional feelings. Are you getting into emotional circular arguments? She has her part in this too- because when she incites you emotionally, she also has the emotional response. If you feel badly the next day, it's because of this over doing it.

Once I understood this, I realized why co-dependent behavior fits the 12 step program. If you can recognize these emotional situations and avoid overdoing them, it may help. This doesn't mean you don't have feelings at all or never express them, it means learning to manage your own feelings better- self care. Emotional sobriety takes some work but it's possible.

It's fine to write out your feelings for yourself but consider not sending them. Especially if there's going to be legal involvement, they could be evidence. Not that you have done something wrong but consider that we all are capable of saying things we don't mean in a moment of emotion. They don't need to be in writing.

If you separate that is difficult for anyone. I don't know if you are seeing a therapist or not. I think that can help, in addition to your sponsor. Whether you stay romantically involved with your children's mother or not, you will be in some relationship to her as she is the boys' mother. It may help to reduce the emotional drama between the two of you either way.






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« Reply #210 on: August 27, 2021, 06:54:44 AM »

I find myself thinking along the same lines as NotWendy.

The information we learn here, the skills, tools, tips are for us.   They are for us to use to make ourselves more emotionally intelligent, more emotionally mature, with better communication skills and with better boundaries about knowing when to walk away.    They are for us to use to make the relationship function to the best possible level it can.

But just like an addict is dependent on the substance they abuse, a co-dependent can have an "addiction" to the dysfunction in the relationship. In a way, you both know how to "invite" each other into an emotional binge. You know when you've done it because you feel emotionally "hung over" the next day.


often times its hard to let go of the circular arguments, or the endless non productive discussions of 'what is wrong in the relationship'.    it can be addictive.   the idea of 'this time I am going to prove my point' can be seductive.   the idea of 'I need to be able to express myself'  can be over used.     

a long time member here used to ask - "what good could possible come of this?"   when faced with a should I or shouldn't I decision.     and then he would point out moderation and realistic goals...   we don't try to fix all our problems in one 24 hour period.     

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« Reply #211 on: August 27, 2021, 07:44:14 AM »

I agree, they are for us.

Gaining more emotional regulation skills helps in many ways- besides the relationships we are concerned about. Perhaps we may have a difficult co-worker, or other family member/friend who may be difficult to get along with. These skills can help with these situations too.

Sometimes a poster asks- why do we have to put in the effort to do self work when it's the other person who has the problem?

We can't change someone else, we can only work on ourselves, so why put in so much effort that isn't very effective. However, when we improve our own skills, they help us with the person we are concerned about - and we keep the skills we work at. Way to go! (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #212 on: August 27, 2021, 08:26:27 AM »

Thanks all, very much, for your input. It helps a great deal, every single thought and feeling shared.

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« Reply #213 on: August 27, 2021, 08:33:52 AM »

Yes, will continue working on emotional regulation. Joining daily 12 Step meetings, seeing a therapist once per week, practicing self care, talking to you all on the forum, other support groups and sharing partners, etc.

I agree I should avoid sending more emails and feel the feelings they're designed to hide in those moments.

My therapist said it might be helpful to help her find therapy as it looks like she may not have the energy to do so. She also said to start couples therapy.

She continues pushing me to go to the mountains. It's insatiable!

I need to step away very frequently. I don't want the addiction of the emotional roller coaster ride. It is sometimes very difficult as even after I've left the house, she will continue as soon as I get back. After 3 times leaving and coming back, I'm exhausted and just want to lay in bed.

Meanwhile she's contacted my sponsor and is blaming me a lot. That's OK. I just need to stay calm, pray, meditate.
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« Reply #214 on: August 27, 2021, 08:34:59 AM »

I won't talk about BPD or trauma with her again. It was a learning opportunity. I'm moving on now. Boundaries are back in place. I just need to protect myself from her chaotic energy.
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« Reply #215 on: August 27, 2021, 10:30:53 AM »

I’m in full agreement with Notwendy and ‘ducks.

I know how tempting it is to want to try and share who you are with your wife. Sad to say, but so many pwBPD do not have the capacity to really engage on that level.

You share a deep seated feeling, and wait for a response, and at best, it can just fall flat. You get no reply that lets you know you’ve been heard or understood.

At worst, your words are twisted and turned against you in a hurtful way.
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« Reply #216 on: August 27, 2021, 10:47:17 AM »

She joined my 12 Step meeting today, for the first time in 9 years, she shared.

It was spontaneous, I handed her the phone (the meeting is online) and she shared.

She was sharing and talking with the group for about 30 minutes.

I felt deeply joyful and safe. I felt like for the first time in years her burdens are shared with someone other than me... I felt the joy of relief and freedom.

I hope she keeps coming back. Every day. One meeting per day. I hope she does it.

I'm aware though that I need to be cautious. Joining the group might be good for her, it may help her with a daily reprieve (if she commits to it), but I don't know if it will help her with her behavior. She'd need an experienced sponsor in that regard too, which she may find through the group.
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« Reply #217 on: August 28, 2021, 05:01:10 AM »

She's gone to the mountains alone. This is really good progress. The fact that she'll learn to drive the car, spend time alone for self-care, etc.

Now she's gone, it's as if an invisible energy field of entrapment has disappeared. My energy for fathering has increased tenfold, the joy, the freedom, the love... as soon as she left, for the first time in the boy's lifetime, I called my sister - their Aunty, Uncle and cousins. Video call... completely free to be myself, completely healing for the boys to share that joy with their wider family, to receive the love that has been suppressed due to my partner's issues.

Cat said a few days ago, with safety, comes clarity. This is true and she's only been gone 45 minutes. It's sad that it is this way, but it is, and the experience of sharing joy and love with family of origin via video chat brought clarity at how sick the atmosphere is at home that my expwbpd holds such hatred towards people who are loving and energetic and caring.
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« Reply #218 on: August 28, 2021, 08:37:45 AM »

How does your sponsor feel about her joining the group?


12 step groups are for specific issues. They aren't therapy sessions. Venting to the group can be a first step but this isn't effective unless someone is willing to do some serious personal work on some kind of additive issue or co-dependency.

There are a few couples in my 12 step groups. They are there for certain reasons- one couple - they both have codependency issues due to family dysfunction. One couple sometimes came for addiction issues but mostly it was the enabler- partner. I don't know anyone in the groups with serious BPD. This is just my observation.
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« Reply #219 on: August 28, 2021, 02:03:55 PM »

How does your sponsor feel about her joining the group?


12 step groups are for specific issues. They aren't therapy sessions. Venting to the group can be a first step but this isn't effective unless someone is willing to do some serious personal work on some kind of additive issue or co-dependency.

There are a few couples in my 12 step groups. They are there for certain reasons- one couple - they both have codependency issues due to family dysfunction. One couple sometimes came for addiction issues but mostly it was the enabler- partner. I don't know anyone in the groups with serious BPD. This is just my observation.

I'm not sure what he thinks. It was rather spontaneous. It appears she wants to keep going. I don't know if her intention is growth now or in the future.

I'll help her find an individual therapist... at least provide some potential options, but then leave it in her hands to choose someone, reach out, and go to sessions.
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« Reply #220 on: August 28, 2021, 02:39:39 PM »

Call me skeptical, but I think the reason she joined the group was to check up on you.
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« Reply #221 on: August 28, 2021, 02:51:20 PM »

Yup, Cat said what I was aiming at by asking you what your sponsor thought about it?  Being cool (click to insert in post)

I am also skeptical, because for the 12 step programs to work, one had to be willing to be insightful and also to accept some frank feedback about our own issues that are driving the problems. If you truly wish to be hopeful then give this some time and see if she sticks to it and is willing to do the work. Yes, people may vent about a problem in order to seek help but it's not designed for people to just vent at

I also don't think 12 step programs were designed to treat BPD. They are for people struggling with addictions/codependency and families/partners concerned about them- not for the partner's specific mental health therapy.

I also wondered if you could feel comfortable speaking frankly to the group about your issues/concerns with her being there.
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« Reply #222 on: August 28, 2021, 03:05:01 PM »

Thanks Cat and Notwendy

Yeah, so far she has just blamed. My sponsor sent some high energy frank feedback to her via email, however, in her reply to him she appeared to miss it all and simply continued to fight her corner with blame towards me. My sponsor is very experienced and psychic regarding the patterns.

That last sentence has been on my mind too. I would not be able to share openly with her there.

Ill observe over the next weeks how consistent she will be, and also if she'll accept one of the women who goes to the meeting as her sponsor. She talked with the woman a lot and the woman was understanding and supportive, which is a good step to keep someone coming back. However, the woman isn't an experienced sponsor and likely doesn't know about borderline.

I'm skeptical too. And naively hopeful, most likely... But more on the skeptical side. She has for 8 years talked negatively about the meetings and even pulled me away from them at one point. She's talked negatively about my sponsor and sharing partner. And now boom, she's suddenly a good student. It's so hard for me to see if this is real or just a smoke screen.

With safety, comes clarity. Even this day on my own with the boys has brought clarity. It's been smooth, fun, easy... Which is never the case when she's around, sadly. I feel much less stress, much more inner connection, and much more connection with the boys.
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« Reply #223 on: August 28, 2021, 04:57:06 PM »

Even the most experienced sponsor is not equipped to treat BPD. 12 steps are lay groups, and lay sponsors help other members walk through the steps. 12 step groups are not for treating mental illnesses.

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« Reply #224 on: August 28, 2021, 05:02:40 PM »

Even the most experienced sponsor is not equipped to treat BPD. 12 steps are lay groups, and lay sponsors help other members walk through the steps. 12 step groups are not for treating mental illnesses.


Thanks Notwendy. I understand.
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« Reply #225 on: August 28, 2021, 05:23:13 PM »

I suddenly felt unsafe as she has sent an email to my group. It was manipulative and painted me in negative light. I suddenly feel unsafe as the meetings are my most sacred and intimate heart space.

Therefore I explained to the group to be cautious and outlined what the manipulation was. I also shared your message Notwendy with them. I said to my sponsor I may call him more directly and avoid the meetings that she goes to.
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« Reply #226 on: August 28, 2021, 06:24:09 PM »

She is, once again, attempting to control you and your relationships. She knows you receive support from your 12-step group, therefore she has inserted herself into that group. You can't allow this to continue. I hope your sponsor finds another group to recommend to her, and perhaps "disinvites" her.

So manipulative, so intrusive.
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« Reply #227 on: August 28, 2021, 09:47:13 PM »

This scenario, that her participation will become negative, is almost predictable.  It is similar to marriage counseling.  If one spouse is manipulative or blaming, one way or another it can't last.

It is also similar to here.  This is a safe place for those who have been exposed to BPD behaviors and traits.  There are some who find their ways here but they're politely told this is not a site for them and they are redirected to other sites which are more suited for their needs.  (This is also a major reason we are not to tell the pwBPD in our lives about our peer support here.  Their presence here would quickly devolve into denial and blaming.  And a big flame out.)
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« Reply #228 on: August 29, 2021, 03:19:21 AM »

Your messages are extremely insightful.

I invited this onto myself - I was naive (again) - and I think it's a part of co-dependency. My investment in her path is still too high. I put her on the phone to my group - it was my fault she got there in the first place. I also help her setup the call-in to the group via her phone. It's all my mistake. And now yes, I recognize that your messages are completely accurate, I can feel it happening already that her approach is blame toward me and manipulation - very subtle - toward the people on my group. It's my fault, and now I regret it. I invited her into my safe space. Lesson learned.

I will absolutely not do this again - she will never know about this forum, and I was considering setting her up with the therapist I see, but I will not do that. It will get complex.

I told my group about my feelings and my sponsor replied:

"Rest assured we do not believe what people say nor do we believe what they think we believe the actions.  We understand that everybody is manipulated and everybody manipulates.  Don't worry.  You are our hero"

I believe he's aware, yet the other members might not be.

I hope she won't stay in attendance, and perhaps he or I will do something to point her in a new direction.

I am very grateful for your experience, strength and hope here. Couldn't do any of this without you.

It's almost as if my denial slowly, slowly, very slowly, lifts, regarding her condition. All the blind hope I had, all the unawareness of her manipulation, the disbelief that she could be this way.
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« Reply #229 on: August 29, 2021, 07:22:45 AM »

I invited this onto myself - I was naive (again) - and I think it's a part of co-dependency. My investment in her path is still too high.

one of the characteristics of co-dependency is believing that others can't take care of themselves.   and that offering advice and direction is caring, not controlling.    most of here share the characteristic of being 'rescuers', caretakers, fixers.     ~if only they would listen to us we could make their lives so much better~    type of thinking.     you seem to be describing a pattern of rescuing.     you are going to move out and then something happens and you send an email,  or connect her to a 12 step group, or have one more conversation and think 'this is going to be it'   I am going to be heard and things will get better.

why do you think you have this need to rescue her?   or fix her?   or help her at your own expense?

I believe he's aware, yet the other members might not be.

you are probably correct.  other members will not see it the way you do.   they don't have your experience with her and pwBPD are very good at projecting victimhood.    there will be people who believe her stories.

I hope she won't stay in attendance, and perhaps he or I will do something to point her in a new direction.

so you are going to help her again?  Being cool (click to insert in post) 

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« Reply #230 on: August 29, 2021, 07:31:51 AM »

one of the characteristics of co-dependency is believing that others can't take care of themselves.   and that offering advice and direction is caring, not controlling.    most of here share the characteristic of being 'rescuers', caretakers, fixers.     ~if only they would listen to us we could make their lives so much better~    type of thinking.     you seem to be describing a pattern of rescuing.     you are going to move out and then something happens and you send an email,  or connect her to a 12 step group, or have one more conversation and think 'this is going to be it'   I am going to be heard and things will get better.

why do you think you have this need to rescue her?   or fix her?   or help her at your own expense?

you are probably correct.  other members will not see it the way you do.   they don't have your experience with her and pwBPD are very good at projecting victimhood.    there will be people who believe her stories.

so you are going to help her again?  Being cool (click to insert in post) 



I love your questions. They're deep. Why do I do this? Why do I hope? Why I'm naive at such a deep level?

I am reflecting on all these questions. Thank you...

One question: I don't know if I should help her to find help. My therapist who doesn't know about BPD advised me to help her even if just to search out some options, because she likely wouldn't have the energy to do so. Is it wise for me to do this?
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« Reply #231 on: August 29, 2021, 07:37:34 AM »

The toxic relationship between my parents definitely shaped this toxic hope cycle I go into. The deep sadness at the fights, the hope in the brief times of peace. The constant helping them to fix their relationship and themselves.
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« Reply #232 on: August 29, 2021, 07:44:13 AM »

I love your questions. They're deep. Why do I do this? Why do I hope? Why I'm naive at such a deep level?

I am a helper, rescuer, caretaker, because I was raised that way.   as a young child I went to live with my grandparents to ~help~ them with everyday living concerns.   taking the trash out.  doing the dishes.   helping with household chores.   my grandparents had health issues and I was the 'fix'.   I learned that love was conditional on how much help I could provide.    and I unconsciously I learned to confuse love with pity.   and the need to rescue.



One question: I don't know if I should help her to find help. My therapist who doesn't know about BPD advised me to help her even if just to search out some options, because she likely wouldn't have the energy to do so. Is it wise for me to do this?

I am going to answer your questions with questions.   have you asked her?    have you asked her if she wants help doing this?   or if she would rather do it alone?       have you figured out where your boundaries are before you begin this process?    does "help" mean you search with her for therapists?   does "help" mean you pick a therapist for her?   does "help" mean you go with her to the appointment?   every appointment?    

the more help you provide the less ownership she will feel of the process.    the boundaries you establish here will protect you from helping at your own expense.     and help her make choices that invest her in her decisions.
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« Reply #233 on: August 29, 2021, 07:49:28 AM »

My therapist who doesn't know about BPD advised me to help her even if just to search out some options, because she likely wouldn't have the energy to do so.

so lets walk through this for a minute and see how it might play out.   

lets say you search out some options... and she picks one.    she goes to therapy a couple of times and has a rough session.    what are the chances that she is going to say Oh TD picked the wrong therapist for me,  TD sent me to see a jerk, I am never doing that again.    I am guess they are pretty high.    the more you help the more she will pass responsibility onto you.     that's something you want to be aware of.
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« Reply #234 on: August 29, 2021, 08:25:49 AM »

Insightful article - https://narcwise.com/2018/07/03/when-hope-kills-narcissistic-abuse/
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« Reply #235 on: August 29, 2021, 11:40:37 AM »

I am a helper, rescuer, caretaker, because I was raised that way.   as a young child I went to live with my grandparents to ~help~ them with everyday living concerns.   taking the trash out.  doing the dishes.   helping with household chores.   my grandparents had health issues and I was the 'fix'.   I learned that love was conditional on how much help I could provide.    and I unconsciously I learned to confuse love with pity.   and the need to rescue.

Thanks for sharing this. Hearing about your experience helps me to see mine more clearly.


Excerpt
I am going to answer your questions with questions.   have you asked her?    have you asked her if she wants help doing this?   or if she would rather do it alone?       have you figured out where your boundaries are before you begin this process?    does "help" mean you search with her for therapists?   does "help" mean you pick a therapist for her?   does "help" mean you go with her to the appointment?   every appointment?    

the more help you provide the less ownership she will feel of the process.    the boundaries you establish here will protect you from helping at your own expense.     and help her make choices that invest her in her decisions.

Thank you... I understand that the more help I provide, the less ownership she'll feel. Grateful for the questions you asked.

She wants help. She says she's tried, but can't find help. I'm not certain she thinks she needs help. To help her, I would find some (e.g. 2 or 3) potential options for her, however, I'm limited in my capacity as I don't speak the language very well in the country I live in (her native country). After providing the 2 or 3 options, I'll leave everything else up to her.
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« Reply #236 on: August 29, 2021, 11:42:18 AM »

so lets walk through this for a minute and see how it might play out.   

lets say you search out some options... and she picks one.    she goes to therapy a couple of times and has a rough session.    what are the chances that she is going to say Oh TD picked the wrong therapist for me,  TD sent me to see a jerk, I am never doing that again.    I am guess they are pretty high.    the more you help the more she will pass responsibility onto you.     that's something you want to be aware of.


Thanks... just read this message after I posted my last one.

It's quite likely that the person I choose she would see 2 or 3 times and then stop seeing.

If this happens, I won't help her again to find other options.
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« Reply #237 on: August 29, 2021, 11:53:59 AM »

Really good article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/5-types-people-who-can-ruin-your-life/201906/can-you-cure-borderline-personality-unconditional
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« Reply #238 on: August 29, 2021, 06:40:32 PM »

Hey there TD, I've been through most of your thread.
First of all, sorry to hear about your situation.
Sorry for baging in but just wanted to give my 2 cents.
I think I was in a somewhat similar situation to yours about a year ago.
I have a 5 yr old boy and a 2 yr old girl. I chose to leave.
Do I regret the decision? Yes and no. I know I did the right thing, my now defunct marriage was killing me.
Slowly but surely it was. My anxiety was through the roof, and it was directly impacting my parenting, work, health and whatnot. I do regret not being part of a "complete family" (though had I ever had one in the first place? it was super dysfunctional). I miss my kids constantly, but I have a somewhat fair arrangement. I pick 'em up every tuesday, deliver them at school on wednesdays and get alternate weekends. I too was on an SSRI back in the days. Leaving improved my health and self esteem in unimaginable ways. I don't take any meds nowadays.
What led me to decide?
It's one of those things life teaches you... People barely change, if they do at all. Accept the possibility your wife won't change significantly for the next 20  years. Are you okay with that? How do you see yourself and herself in 20 years together? In my case I could only see grim scenarios, hence my decision. Only you can judge that. I know that particular meditation really helped me decide (i.e. how do you see you and your partner in the next 5,10,20 yrs). I too thought a lot about staying for the kids. But in all honesty, I wasn't being as good a parent as I am now, single. The chaos my marriage created made being a good parent an insurmountable task. Leaving meant I'd see my kids less often, but when I do, I give them my best, and they know it. Kids are extremely resilient. They surely suffer from a divorce. But perhaps they suffer more from a broken home with unhappy parents. My ex promised to change many times, only to relapse into old habits. One day I simply gave up.
The hardest part of all that is admiting defeat. It's giving up the dream of having that "complete and happy family".
On a brighter note, I've gone out with a girl that she said something very powerful: "our broken past should not be an impediment to living a happy and fulfilling life. One can always begin another story anew".
Here's where I was a little less than a year ago:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=347305.0
I hope you should find clarity. I know how painful the doubt is. I wish I could tell you I'm a 100% happy person right now. I ain't. This episode in my life left lifelong scars. But I'm sure I'm feeling and living way better than I used to.
Please don't take my message as a "leave". Take it as a "don't be afraid to consider leaving and most importantly don't feel guilty about it. Invest considerable time into meditating about it and make sure it's your decision, not anyone else's, either to stay or leave."
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« Reply #239 on: August 29, 2021, 07:46:13 PM »

I have a 5 yr old boy and a 2 yr old girl. I chose to leave.
Do I regret the decision? Yes and no. I know I did the right thing, my now defunct marriage was killing me.
Slowly but surely it was. My anxiety was through the roof, and it was directly impacting my parenting, work, health and whatnot. I do regret not being part of a "complete family" (though had I ever had one in the first place? it was super dysfunctional)...

Accept the possibility your wife won't change significantly for the next 20  years. Are you okay with that? How do you see yourself and herself in 20 years together? In my case I could only see grim scenarios, hence my decision. Only you can judge that.

This is an excellent mental exercise... step outside your immediate situation and ask yourself where you will be years down the road.  And where your kids will be.  That's the difference between subject perspective (from inside the box) or objective perspective (as someone else sees it or as you would look back years from now).

I know that particular meditation really helped me decide (i.e. how do you see you and your partner in the next 5,10,20 yrs). I too thought a lot about staying for the kids. But in all honesty, I wasn't being as good a parent as I am now, single. The chaos my marriage created made being a good parent an insurmountable task...

Previously on this thread I wrote a quote, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Something to ponder.

The hardest part of all that is admitting defeat. It's giving up the dream of having that "complete and happy family".

Sadly, it was a dream, hopium, not reality.
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« Reply #240 on: August 31, 2021, 07:22:04 PM »

Excerpt
This is an excellent mental exercise... step outside your immediate situation and ask yourself where you will be years down the road.  And where your kids will be.  That's the difference between subject perspective (from inside the box) or objective perspective (as someone else sees it or as you would look back years from now).

It's what took me outta that hole. Hope it helps other members reach the necessary clarity of mind.

Excerpt
Previously on this thread I wrote a quote, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Something to ponder.
I know Laugh out loud (click to insert in post), I copied that from you. Only I didn't mention the author :p

Excerpt
Sadly, it was a dream, hopium, not reality.
Hopium... very good term. It still lingers onto me. Maybe I still miss the "action" i.e. the crucial caretaking role I had. My mind also deletes all the bad moments and make me remember the few good ones. Indeed a mix of unrealistic expectations with romanticized memories.

TD I just realized I had posted on a previous thread of yours a while ago Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Anyway, this new post I made contains some new info. Hope I don't bore you with some repetition.
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« Reply #241 on: September 03, 2021, 01:05:11 PM »

Hey there TD, I've been through most of your thread.
First of all, sorry to hear about your situation.
Sorry for baging in but just wanted to give my 2 cents.
I think I was in a somewhat similar situation to yours about a year ago.
I have a 5 yr old boy and a 2 yr old girl. I chose to leave.
Do I regret the decision? Yes and no. I know I did the right thing, my now defunct marriage was killing me.
Slowly but surely it was. My anxiety was through the roof, and it was directly impacting my parenting, work, health and whatnot. I do regret not being part of a "complete family" (though had I ever had one in the first place? it was super dysfunctional). I miss my kids constantly, but I have a somewhat fair arrangement. I pick 'em up every tuesday, deliver them at school on wednesdays and get alternate weekends. I too was on an SSRI back in the days. Leaving improved my health and self esteem in unimaginable ways. I don't take any meds nowadays.
What led me to decide?
It's one of those things life teaches you... People barely change, if they do at all. Accept the possibility your wife won't change significantly for the next 20  years. Are you okay with that? How do you see yourself and herself in 20 years together? In my case I could only see grim scenarios, hence my decision. Only you can judge that. I know that particular meditation really helped me decide (i.e. how do you see you and your partner in the next 5,10,20 yrs). I too thought a lot about staying for the kids. But in all honesty, I wasn't being as good a parent as I am now, single. The chaos my marriage created made being a good parent an insurmountable task. Leaving meant I'd see my kids less often, but when I do, I give them my best, and they know it. Kids are extremely resilient. They surely suffer from a divorce. But perhaps they suffer more from a broken home with unhappy parents. My ex promised to change many times, only to relapse into old habits. One day I simply gave up.
The hardest part of all that is admiting defeat. It's giving up the dream of having that "complete and happy family".
On a brighter note, I've gone out with a girl that she said something very powerful: "our broken past should not be an impediment to living a happy and fulfilling life. One can always begin another story anew".
Here's where I was a little less than a year ago:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=347305.0
I hope you should find clarity. I know how painful the doubt is. I wish I could tell you I'm a 100% happy person right now. I ain't. This episode in my life left lifelong scars. But I'm sure I'm feeling and living way better than I used to.
Please don't take my message as a "leave". Take it as a "don't be afraid to consider leaving and most importantly don't feel guilty about it. Invest considerable time into meditating about it and make sure it's your decision, not anyone else's, either to stay or leave."


Dear Snowflake90

Thanks very, very, very much for taking the time to read this very long thread, and for the loving effort you put into writing your reply. I greatly appreciate it.

I have been a bit delayed responding because I started a new job this week.

I love everything you wrote. It hits right on the inner doubt spot. The part of me that keeps questioning. I'm going to practice the meditation you shared this weekend as much as possible.

I will, most likely, go ahead and stick to renting the flat for 1 year. If it turned out to be a mistake, then that's OK; all part of the learning process. The flat will also help me live up to my work responsibilities in my new job as well as provide me with more time with the boys, because I would save about 1 hour per day on travel.

She is writing emails to my sponsor which contain plenty of blame but which also say things like this:

Excerpt
Let´s do it for the boys. Let´s show them that their daddy and mummy can make it that they can fix everything. They will have such treasure for their life.

I can do any therapies individual, couple... I do not resist anymore. I just need to help to find someone who is educated in the field. I did not find anyone yet. I think it might be that people in this fields are not that evolved in Czech. I need to trust that people would direct me in the right way.

Let´s build the trust and love again.

I promise I will not quit my spiritual journey. I am grateful you introduced me to this new area for me. I am grateful to have SPONSOR'S NAME´s guidance. He is highly educated and experienced and I trust him. I trust if I do it for myself I will do it for all my boys and simultaneously for everyone and make the world better.

It feels like she's being genuine. But I don't know...

And another thing is I don't want to have a physical relationship with her currently. But I don't know if that's because I've just chosen on a deep level to depart the relationship to a large degree. It's also because her behavior is hurtful and she expects me to do so much that is impossible for another person to provide. In the end, my body shut down towards her. And of course the prospect of another sexual relationship in the future with another woman is enticing, but I don't believe I should allow that to sway my decision.

Thank you so much for your share. So much gold for me. Thank you...


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« Reply #242 on: September 04, 2021, 08:06:46 AM »

Have you heard of mirroring?

I am not going to consider if she's being sincere or not. Or if she sent this email with any mal intentions.

Both pwBPD and their partners share the trait of co-dependency- maybe they act on it in different ways but the behavior reflects a poor sense of self and people pleasing traits-  trying to be what the other person thinks they should be in order to feel loved and secure, rather than being their authentic self. Both do this out of fear.

Motivation drives all behaviors. The more motivated, the more someone can stick to doing something. This can vary according to the task at hand. All of us can stick to something if it is immediately rewarding. It's the tasks that are not quickly rewarded that challenge us. A child might have ADD, but be able to concentrate on a video game better than on their homework. This doesn't mean they don't have ADD, they have difficulty concentrating on everything but can pull it together if very motivated but they may not be able to sustain that.

A person with BPD can do this as well. Hold it together when highly motivated- at least for a while. My BPD mother has a social persona where she does hold it together, but when she's in control. She can go have coffee with a neighbor for instance and be on her best behavior. It's a long term closer relationship that is problematic for her. This is not from any malicious intent. It's the nature of BPD. Just because a child with ADD can play a video game for 30 minutes but not their homework does not mean they aren't doing their homework on purpose.

We are all externally motivated to some extent. However for most of us, we have tasks we don't like to do, but we do them because we are internally motivated as well.  An older child may not like doing homework, but if they want to graduate and go to college one day they will do it. They become internally motivated to reach a long term goal.

At the moment, your partner is scared of the relationship falling apart, scared of losing your support financially and with taking care of the boys. This is expected- anyone would be scared as well. She is highly motivated to repair the situation. Her attempts are sincere. The question is, is this sustained change? Some people with BPD have been successful at self work with certain therapies. I don't know the success rate. But I would think they have been motivated to do this work.

You will know by the outcome of your decision. Stay to your decision and she will continue to try to make things better ---until she sees that you are sticking with it. External motivation can only last so long. The quick way to see would be to give in. "Ok honey, I believe you, we are back together", and see how long her desire to change lasts.

Do you see how either of these choices is being co-dependent on your part? It's basing your decision on if she truly means what she says or not. For your decision to be based on your wishes, it can't be this kind of decision. " I will do this to make her change" "I won't do this because she now says she will change".  This is your decision to make regardless.

Back to mirroring. Who does this email sound like? She now promised to continue her spiritual growth, but which one of you is into this kind of thing? Now she has your sponsor and your group too. But 12 steps is not a therapy on its own for BPD.

I mention this because my BPD mother also mirrors me. I don't blame her for this. She mirrors her friends as well. If someone doesn't have a strong sense of self, and they want to be liked, they act as if they are what the other person wants them to be. And also guilty as charged. I learned to do this too and people pleasing has been something I have to work on. It's not just done by people with BPD, but also seen with co-dependency.

It's not unusual for couples to have similarities but they are still individuals too. When couples are enmeshed it can feel threatening to acknowledge differences. You may not have equal interest in spirituality. That's OK, not everyone is. But if she thinks you want her to be spiritual and it's not her thing, she may think she needs to act as if it is. And she knows 12 steps is your interest and now she seems to be taking this on too and now is interacting with your sponsor. If you reinforce this by loving the "persona", she doesn't feel accepted for her authentic self either. If you present a false persona to her, you don't feel loved for who you are either.

It's pretty tough being authentic. I don't always succeed with this either. Of course being too transparent is a boundary problem too. People can have their own private thoughts, interests, and certain types of relationships ( such as a work relationship, with a client, or with your sponsor, etc.) do not need to be shared.
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« Reply #243 on: September 04, 2021, 06:42:57 PM »

Hey TD, no problem, very glad to be of use!
I have reread parts of your thread and it reminds me a lot of my own situation. I did go on a vacation with my ex, though quite a few months before actually leaving home. The vacation of course was actually quite enjoyable and predictably so, it interfered with my decision to leave. Surely going on a vacation, without the everyday hurdles of life will be enjoyable, but that's not real life. The thing is, any relationship that needs a vacation to work is no relationship. Relationships should work just as well on the "boring" day by day routines. They are meant to be fun, stressful at times but surely not an everyday struggle.
I also wanted to add that, just like yours, my ex sent me conflicting messages which confused me. On the one hand there were some nice words, apologies, some recognition of her faults. On the other hand, no actual improvements were made. So I second what has been said over and over, watch what she does not what she says. BPD people are very clever and will often tell you exactly what you want to hear. But on the action department things may not change at all.
Finally I like the trial separation idea. Surely that's your choice and I sure hope not to interfere. But the idea is very sound. You distance yourself from her, both physically and emotionally. In my case although emotionally I was sad, physically I've never felt better. I had enormous trouble sleeping while living with her and in my first night out I slept soundly. I was also constantly "on the edge" while living with her. I couldn't take a deep breath. When at home with my parents, like the day after leaving her I attained some serenity and peace of mind I hadn't felt in 6 years of marriage. Not walking on eggshells is bliss. So my suggestion is, listen to your gut. Not only your emotions (they can betray you at times) but to your body. Do you feel better? The trial separation may just answer that question.
Keep us posted and again, don't be afraid to make mistakes, maybe you will walk back on your decision, maybe you won't. Only you can forge your own path. We are here to share our experiences and tell you what has worked and what hasn't for us.
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« Reply #244 on: September 05, 2021, 06:43:02 AM »

It feels like she's being genuine. But I don't know...

when I was first recovering from my abusive relationship I read a lot of Shari Stines PhD.   https://drshariestines.com/  I liked her newsletter.    Years ago Dr. Stine said this:

Excerpt
"She will project her bad behaviors onto you and you will project your good intentions onto her – neither is accurate."

and it hit me like a wallop right between the eyes.    Yes.    that was exactly what was happening.   I kept wanting to think the best of my partner.    I desperately wanted to believe her intentions were good.    I projected all sorts of good intentions onto her.   She wanted to ~get better~.    She wanted the relationship to work.     She cared about my needs and wants.    I projected all that in spite of the evidence that was before my eyes.    I discounted reality and clung to any thing that I could spin as a positive.

It was my experience that I developed a strong loyal attachment to the person who was abusing me.    It wasn't until much later that I learned that this is typical in abusive relationships.   I learned that this is a normal pattern in abusive relationships.   That this desperate projection of good intentions is actually a survival technique.    Its the minds way of protecting us when we feel there is no way to escape.   Its a way to say 'well its not that bad'   or   'its going to get better'.    Its a coping technique.    we all use coping techniques to survive difficult circumstances.   and most times that is fine.     when we sit in a dentist chair we tell ourselves,   'this is almost over',   'its going to be better from here',   or 'this is going really well'.     the truth is we don't know any of that,  we are projecting good intentions and good outcomes to make ourselves feel better.   

in my experience with my pwBPD,  my coping skills quickly went from being a good thing - projecting positive outcomes to make me more emotionally comfortable;  to a bad thing keeping me stuck and enabling an unhealthy  situation.

I would suggest you live in reality, live in the truth - not what you hope it may be or want it to be.    and I would suggest you live in real time, not in what could happen next month or some time in the nebulous future.    Live one decision and one day at a time.

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« Reply #245 on: September 10, 2021, 02:23:29 AM »

Hey TD, no problem, very glad to be of use!
I have reread parts of your thread and it reminds me a lot of my own situation. I did go on a vacation with my ex, though quite a few months before actually leaving home. The vacation of course was actually quite enjoyable and predictably so, it interfered with my decision to leave. Surely going on a vacation, without the everyday hurdles of life will be enjoyable, but that's not real life. The thing is, any relationship that needs a vacation to work is no relationship. Relationships should work just as well on the "boring" day by day routines. They are meant to be fun, stressful at times but surely not an everyday struggle.
I also wanted to add that, just like yours, my ex sent me conflicting messages which confused me. On the one hand there were some nice words, apologies, some recognition of her faults. On the other hand, no actual improvements were made. So I second what has been said over and over, watch what she does not what she says. BPD people are very clever and will often tell you exactly what you want to hear. But on the action department things may not change at all.
Finally I like the trial separation idea. Surely that's your choice and I sure hope not to interfere. But the idea is very sound. You distance yourself from her, both physically and emotionally. In my case although emotionally I was sad, physically I've never felt better. I had enormous trouble sleeping while living with her and in my first night out I slept soundly. I was also constantly "on the edge" while living with her. I couldn't take a deep breath. When at home with my parents, like the day after leaving her I attained some serenity and peace of mind I hadn't felt in 6 years of marriage. Not walking on eggshells is bliss. So my suggestion is, listen to your gut. Not only your emotions (they can betray you at times) but to your body. Do you feel better? The trial separation may just answer that question.
Keep us posted and again, don't be afraid to make mistakes, maybe you will walk back on your decision, maybe you won't. Only you can forge your own path. We are here to share our experiences and tell you what has worked and what hasn't for us.

Thank you so very much for your loving, deeply insightful and supportive post.

It's been a few days since I came to the forum as I've been busy in my new job.

Today is the day that I am to go to the new flat and sign the official contract and pay a significant amount of the money. Over the last few days, I've seen more of her patterns, such as gas lighting, hooking, twisting my words, etc.

There has been one change - she has now started talking to my sponsor.and going to the meeting that I went to. This has forced me to start at CODA, which is something I've had on my mind to do for several months. Additionally, I stopped calling my sponsor a few months ago because I found some of his advice conflicting. He's a great man, but somehow the dynamic changed between us as I came more into listening to my own self, intuitive guidance within, etc. So it's a really good thing that she's gone to those meetings and started talking to my sponsor.

With that said, I don't know if she's doing it just to keep us together. Only time will tell. It seems sudden and forced, but I sense there's something within her that wants to grow, and she appreciates his support towards her which is very loving from him. He's nonjudgmental. I've now started at CODA and will grow and learn so much about my co-dependency issues at those meetings.

Your post helps me this morning as the old fear and doubt started to arise, as today is THE day. Every word of what you wrote is very calming and helps me keep things in perspective.

Despite the change of her going to meetings now, I don't think it's enough, because her covert manipulation is very ingrained. And a tell tale sign that true change isn't occurring is that SHE STILL won't reveal the details of her bank account, even in this opportunity to create increased trust and transparency in our relationship. It's not about the money for me, it's about the hiding. She still won't say what she has stored away.

So I sense it's time for me to go for the new flat 100%. It's a scary step, but one that will be a learning process. Yesterday she said that if I do it she will give up all her efforts as I will be destroying what I've built. These are just words of hers that may or may not be true. I just need to listen to my inner world to help guide me through this, and not focus on her. That's an addiction of mine - focusing on her and her growth.

The main doubt that arises is actually a financial one. The money I could save by staying in the same flat as hers. But emotional freedom is priceless - the truth of inner freedom, increased happiness, love... it's all beyond money, and even in these last few days as I stopped physical and emotional contact with her, my physical symptoms such as pain in my left knee (arthritis, at age 35!) has gone... I feel so much more energy to give to the boys - joy, playing, fun, happiness, laughter! It's amazing... and it comes from establishing that boundary of distance.

I hope she is OK. It's often tough to see her in grief. But I must remember I'm not "doing it to her." That would be me playing God. It's important for me to be kind and loving and with good will to all of life, but not at the expense of honoring myself. If a tough decision is made such as renting this new flat, without her approval and triggering grief for her, I must remember that's the process she needs to work through and I'm not responsible for "causing" it.
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« Reply #246 on: September 10, 2021, 02:29:25 AM »

when I was first recovering from my abusive relationship I read a lot of Shari Stines PhD.   https://drshariestines.com/  I liked her newsletter.    Years ago Dr. Stine said this:

Thanks so much for this link! I am looking forward to digging in and learning.

Excerpt
and it hit me like a wallop right between the eyes.    Yes.    that was exactly what was happening.   I kept wanting to think the best of my partner.    I desperately wanted to believe her intentions were good.    I projected all sorts of good intentions onto her.   She wanted to ~get better~.    She wanted the relationship to work.     She cared about my needs and wants.    I projected all that in spite of the evidence that was before my eyes.    I discounted reality and clung to any thing that I could spin as a positive.

It was my experience that I developed a strong loyal attachment to the person who was abusing me.    It wasn't until much later that I learned that this is typical in abusive relationships.   I learned that this is a normal pattern in abusive relationships.   That this desperate projection of good intentions is actually a survival technique.    Its the minds way of protecting us when we feel there is no way to escape.   Its a way to say 'well its not that bad'   or   'its going to get better'.    Its a coping technique.    we all use coping techniques to survive difficult circumstances.   and most times that is fine.     when we sit in a dentist chair we tell ourselves,   'this is almost over',   'its going to be better from here',   or 'this is going really well'.     the truth is we don't know any of that,  we are projecting good intentions and good outcomes to make ourselves feel better.   

in my experience with my pwBPD,  my coping skills quickly went from being a good thing - projecting positive outcomes to make me more emotionally comfortable;  to a bad thing keeping me stuck and enabling an unhealthy  situation.

I would suggest you live in reality, live in the truth - not what you hope it may be or want it to be.    and I would suggest you live in real time, not in what could happen next month or some time in the nebulous future.    Live one decision and one day at a time.

'ducks


Thank you so much for sharing all of this... so deep and insightful.

Tremendously grateful for your support.
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« Reply #247 on: September 10, 2021, 05:16:06 AM »

It's done. I signed the contract, transferred all services e.g. gas, electricity, etc., paid the security deposit and my first month's rent.

I feel light anxiety, nervousness regarding exactly how it will work with the boys. The dream of the intact family is still within me, but there was never an "intact" family in the first place. My relationship with my partner with BPD wasn't based on mutuality, equality, trust, freedom and authenticity.

I got myself into it, I grew to start finding the way out. I've joined CODA now and had my first meeting last night. The literature is perfect, the traits of co-dependency are in me. Without my Higher Power I could never have done this, without the support of my groups and sponsors and teachers.

What will happen? I don't know, but I keep in mind the possibility of getting back together with her, depending on improvements. If I've made a mistake, which is possible, what's the worst that happened? The worst is the loss of a significant amount of money. But it's a risk worth taking, because emotional peace, freedom and healing, are worth infinitely more than a bit of worldly cash.
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« Reply #248 on: September 10, 2021, 08:23:36 AM »

Again, very glad to be of help.
When I was just leaving, my ex was also on an "up trend". Just the night before she was reading a book of child stories to my eldest son. She very rarely did that. All the while I was just thinking "My Goodness, am I really going to destroy this? Maybe she IS getting better". Yet this is nothing but a fallacy. We're not the "destroyers" here (that's just such a shameful gaslighting technique), we're the firefighters, the rescue crew, who comes in the aftermath of an earthquake caused by them.
Looking at that single moment alone, all would seem like a big mistake. But on the wider picture, a month before she threw herself in front of moving cars and thought it was fun (kinda like not caring about how I'd feel about that). Only a week before she self harmed real bad and caused a lot of distress to the whole family. As cold and harsh as it sounds, her reading a book to my son that night, was all but a show. Almost like an "apology", but certainly not a true recovery. In fact, that was a recurring theme. She screwed up, then to "apologize" she'd stay more with the family, be more loving, etc. It takes guts to break the romanticizing, but it's the right thing to do. If you need a "reality check" you can post here or talk to a trusted friend and people will say whether that's normal or not, whether that's recovery or not. Her not sharing her bank account with you shows complete lack of trust in you, or worse, she's hiding something. Her saying if you leave her you will ruin her recovery is manipulation. If she truly wants to get better, that's regardless of you.
Wishing you best of luck in your journey. And again, try to take the burden off your shoulders. Take your time off, cooldown and you'll start seeing things for what they truly are, and then be able to calmly make decisions.
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« Reply #249 on: September 10, 2021, 10:49:51 AM »

Great response from Snowflake  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

You can look at renting the flat as a *trial separation* —however it turns out, it’s definitely not a mistake.

It’s up to your wife if she takes the path of trying to improve herself for the sake of the relationship. If so, then after a year, which is a good length of time to see if the improved behavior is sustainable, you can decide to remain in the relationship or not.

It may be that she improves somewhat, but you realize that’s not enough for a healthy relationship. Or she might make considerable improvement, which could make you want to reunite with her. Or she may make no improvement at all, or get worse. Only time will tell.
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« Reply #250 on: September 11, 2021, 12:35:27 AM »

There has been one change - she has now started talking to my sponsor and going to the meeting that I went to.

If she were truly seeking to improve, talking to your sponsor might not be a bad thing.  But the concern we have is that she may be, whether consciously or unconsciously, trying to weaken your accounts and switch the sponsor into being one of her advocates to some extent.  As long as you're aware.
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« Reply #251 on: September 11, 2021, 03:46:24 AM »

Again, very glad to be of help.
When I was just leaving, my ex was also on an "up trend". Just the night before she was reading a book of child stories to my eldest son. She very rarely did that. All the while I was just thinking "My Goodness, am I really going to destroy this? Maybe she IS getting better". Yet this is nothing but a fallacy. We're not the "destroyers" here (that's just such a shameful gaslighting technique), we're the firefighters, the rescue crew, who comes in the aftermath of an earthquake caused by them.
Looking at that single moment alone, all would seem like a big mistake. But on the wider picture, a month before she threw herself in front of moving cars and thought it was fun (kinda like not caring about how I'd feel about that). Only a week before she self harmed real bad and caused a lot of distress to the whole family. As cold and harsh as it sounds, her reading a book to my son that night, was all but a show. Almost like an "apology", but certainly not a true recovery. In fact, that was a recurring theme. She screwed up, then to "apologize" she'd stay more with the family, be more loving, etc. It takes guts to break the romanticizing, but it's the right thing to do. If you need a "reality check" you can post here or talk to a trusted friend and people will say whether that's normal or not, whether that's recovery or not. Her not sharing her bank account with you shows complete lack of trust in you, or worse, she's hiding something. Her saying if you leave her you will ruin her recovery is manipulation. If she truly wants to get better, that's regardless of you.
Wishing you best of luck in your journey. And again, try to take the burden off your shoulders. Take your time off, cooldown and you'll start seeing things for what they truly are, and then be able to calmly make decisions.

Thank you so much again. Amazing and deep insights for me, transformative.
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« Reply #252 on: September 11, 2021, 03:48:00 AM »

Great response from Snowflake  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

You can look at renting the flat as a *trial separation* —however it turns out, it’s definitely not a mistake.

It’s up to your wife if she takes the path of trying to improve herself for the sake of the relationship. If so, then after a year, which is a good length of time to see if the improved behavior is sustainable, you can decide to remain in the relationship or not.

It may be that she improves somewhat, but you realize that’s not enough for a healthy relationship. Or she might make considerable improvement, which could make you want to reunite with her. Or she may make no improvement at all, or get worse. Only time will tell.

Thank you Cat... your message brings me a calm, realistic and balanced perspective... feels like a great decision that I went ahead with the rental.
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« Reply #253 on: September 11, 2021, 04:04:46 AM »

If she were truly seeking to improve, talking to your sponsor might not be a bad thing.  But the concern we have is that she may be, whether consciously or unconsciously, trying to weaken your accounts and switch the sponsor into being one of her advocates to some extent.  As long as you're aware.

Thank you ForeverDad. This is really, really important. I'm aware of the potential for this to happen. My primary sponsor now is someone else, someone I trust much more than the sponsor that expwBPD is talking with now. Additionally, I've joined CODA and will have another sponsor hopefully, and meet new sharing partners. All of you here are my sponsors too. I'm very grateful for that. The sponsor that my ex is now talking to is someone I deeply love, but over the years, our relationship changed. We share at the same meeting and now and again I seek his guidance, but over the years, I felt unsafe in some situations because I didn't feel he grasped the essence of certain situations, and his advice often seemed one-dimensional and rigid. His influence on my life was tremendous; he was my "first father" - my first father figure that truly cared for me and helped me to develop masculine values (he is a veteran). However, as mentioned, this changed and I stopped calling him directly; we'd just share at meetings and by email. I stopped seeking his direct help about my expwBPD about 3 or 4 years ago. His advice was sometimes confusing, inconsistent, and frustrating.

About a year ago I found out that he was diagnosed with bi-polar. This made so much sense regarding the frustrations I grew to have with him, and confirmed to me that I can trust my inner feelings and perspectives. Sometimes I still feel he hasn't really "owned" his diagnosis, but progressively he may do do... so, I'm cautious around him even though he's a great fellow, a dedicated spiritual devotee and great to talk to - charismatic. However, as I grew, the dynamic I had with him wasn't working for me anymore (i.e. sergeant - solider type relationship). I learned a lot from that dynamic; I learned the importance of self-discipline, of dedication and of developing inner strength. As I grew, this wasn't what I needed anymore.

Now, my primary sponsor is someone who is deeply, deeply insightful, unconditionally loving and a wise teacher. She is helping me to come into my true self - to listen to my heart, thoughts, perspectives. Ultimately, self-trust, and helping me to get out of this negative relationship pattern with my ex. She provides information and is very loving, but there's no superior/inferior dynamic between her and I, which I really appreciate now.

So... the exposure of my expwBPD with this ex-sponsor of mine is good because he is sincerely devoted to his and others growth, and his character is such that he can really inspire others to get onto the path of self-growth, to take responsibility for their lives, and he's got a big heart... despite the downsides I mentioned about him and his lack of capacity sometimes to see the intricacies of things and sometimes lacks patience and compassion with people... he's got a big heart - and I can see he's having a good impact on her and will help her to get through this process over the next year.

That said, there's still a big chance that he becomes her advocate. Yet, since I'm getting stronger and have the support of this group and my current sponsor, and CODA, I am developing much stronger self-trust that my perceptions and intuitions and insights about BPD and my wife's behavior. I feel protected. My ex-sponsor would also make me doubt my own perceptions... now I'm in a place where I can talk to him candidly and directly and not from an "inferior" position.

Now I've stepped away from those meetings and don't call him, the main correspondence we have is via email which is usually in CC with a lot of other people in the same group, including my own sponsor, who helps me to escape the dynamic I had with him.
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« Reply #254 on: September 11, 2021, 04:10:45 AM »

I'm excited to discover CODA and start going to meetings for the first time. The purpose of the group is more what I need. I needed it years ago, but it's only now that I've taken the step because the meetings I went to my ex is going to. It seems to serve the Highest Good. I had my frustrations with the meetings anyway; CODA is a lot more structured and a much larger group.

My ex-sponsor has less influence over my life now. Part of growing stronger is actually to escape that dynamic with him where I should listen to everything he thinks and says. I'm well into that process now. It's actually the same dynamic I had with my ex!

So... thank you for raising this... it's a big point and it could still happen... but I talk to him quite little now and only in group emails. The experience, strength and hope of this group, CODA and my current sponsor is where I'm looking.
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« Reply #255 on: September 11, 2021, 06:33:30 AM »

12 step groups, and sponsors, can take on different focuses. While they all adhere to the steps as a basis, they are still lay groups, and sponsors are lay people too. Even with professionals, sometimes people find one therapist is a better fit than another.

I have attended CODA and ACA groups. What is interesting is that some members started out in groups focused on addiction, such as AA groups. The focus of these groups tended to be getting the person sober from the addiction. That's the most concerning issue.  Later though, some members wanted to work on the issues that influenced them to become addicts- such as co-dependency and family of origin issues and so moved to the CODA, and ACA groups. Some continue to attend both.

I think it is good that you have a different sponsor than the one your partner is talking to, and one you feel will be more helpful to you. I also think having a separate group from your partner is a good thing too so you can have your own space in it.

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« Reply #256 on: September 11, 2021, 01:31:10 PM »

Started to read a book. The author is strong and is good at highlighting the patterns that might occur with a narcissist. I'm not sure if it would completely apply to a borderline, but the advice mirrors what we talked about in this thread:

They are a lot of fancy talk that sounds wonderful, but their actions don’t match up. Do NOT listen to people watch what they do. Actions are where you will find the truth. No matter what happens, it’s never their fault. They usually have a couple of tactics to never be accountable. It could be switching the subject to something you did wrong and using it to make you feel guilty. Your valid inner concern never gets addressed as they lead you in circles. OR they look sorry and promise to change, which happens for a short period of the “love bombing” phase. Once you are back on their hook, the old patterns, lies, and manipulations come back as they “discard and devalue you” once again. They were never sincere in their promises. It’s just our desire to want to believe them that is sincere.
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« Reply #257 on: September 12, 2021, 07:40:18 AM »

  It’s just our desire to want to believe them that is sincere.

I think it is okay to want to believe the best of people.    its okay to hope for better.   its not okay to do that at our own expense.    some where there is a line.     where hope and trust have to switch to self care and self truth.
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« Reply #258 on: September 19, 2021, 03:24:28 PM »

If she were truly seeking to improve, talking to your sponsor might not be a bad thing.  But the concern we have is that she may be, whether consciously or unconsciously, trying to weaken your accounts and switch the sponsor into being one of her advocates to some extent.  As long as you're aware.


This appears to be happening.

My ex-sponsor wrote me two emails tonight. They were scary and boundary-crossing. I only read the first sentence or two of each one. I replied to let him know that I felt really unsafe and won't read further.

I'm learning to trust my gut response. I had some help from my current sponsor, who agreed that the emails were boundary-crossing:

Excerpt
Oh wow, yes, it is unsolicited "shaming of a foot soldier” and crossing boundaries, as you are learning in CODA meetings. You are not standing in a cesspool! Far from it.

The foot-solider comment is because my ex-sponsor and I had a superior/inferior relationship. He taught me a lot about discipline, but sometimes lacked respect. I listened and avoided revealing my personal inner truths due to fear of his disapproval.

I'm so happy to have safe meetings to go to now - CODA. I love CODA. I love the sharing and the safety and the respect for the rules. In the old meetings with my ex-sponsor, there was too much cross-talk and even "sharing guidance" felt like unsolicited advice-giving.

Setting boundaries tonight with my ex-sponsor was such a big step. I felt a lot of anxiety doing it and after doing it. I invited him to call me by phone if he'd like to engage in mutual and loving conversation. I shared about my anxiety at the CODA meeting and it helped me to come to balance.

She's talking to him a lot now, and it's clear from his emails tonight that he's influenced strongly by her. I see this as OK. I'm grateful to my Higher Power that I have all the support I need; this forum, my loving sponsor who encourages me to listen inwardly, and CODA. I'm seeking a new sponsor too at CODA.

It's OK because I see that I attracted it into my life. As someone who lacked any sort of inner trust and with my self-worth issues, I've attracted strong personalities into my life including my expwBPD and my ex-sponsor. They're coming from the opposite side of the coin to me - the other side of the inbalance. Where I'm self-doubting, they're overly confident.

I see that they're just a reflection of what I believed about myself, and that I don't need to believe that anymore. I can learn to love myself, to care for myself, to listen and to trust myself, and to do so especially when people appear to be telling me how to live my life and what actions to take.

A couple of days ago, he wrote another email which was less intense but which told me to stay with my expwBPD. I reminded him that it's a trial separation but I guess he's not really listening and absorbing what I'm saying.

In essence, I'm learning just to trust myself. It feels scary and I think the boundary setting with my ex-sponsor is even more scary than the boundary-crossing with my expwBPD. That's because I put him on a pedestal, as a teacher that must know better than me how to live my life, that must be key to my connection to being a good person, etc. So much of my self-esteem depended on him. And so now I've set that boundary, it's a big step and even though I avoided reading all of his email because it was too triggering for me, I could feel he's somehow not happy about my growing sense of self.

He was diagnosed with bi-polar last year so perhaps this reflects some of his issues. I touched his heart and gave him so much praise and gratitude over the years which was heartfelt, but I also dishonored myself by not speaking my truth. I may therefore have catered to his ego and now that I'm moving out of that pattern, he doesn't like it.

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« Reply #259 on: September 19, 2021, 05:59:44 PM »

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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« Reply #260 on: September 20, 2021, 03:16:22 AM »

Thank you, Cat.

My ex-sponsor wrote me, it hit me quite hard, but I responded to him with strength and courage, trying to tip the balance so that we have the chance of an equal relationship.

I've put him on my block list for the next week, so I don't need to read emails from him which feel very unsafe. I will continue to go to CODA every day if I can. I'm grateful for that healing space.

My email to him may have been crossing boundaries in response, to a certain extent. I don't want to do that. That's why I've put him on my block list for now, because I'm too triggered by it all.

It's hard for me because I put him as a sort of teacher figure, on a pedestal in my mind. That's a dangerous place to put a human being - as a sort of God figure. As a result, I experience fear even reading his emails and responding to him - I suppose it's my inner child that is afraid of punishment. I really want to heal this, and I think my email to him represents the beginning of healing.

I had the same situation with a teacher a few years ago, and I ended up crashing into tremendous pain after he said some things to me, because I didn't have the means to protect myself. Now I'm learning to protect myself by telling my truth and refusing to accept things which aren't true for me.

My sponsor said that it was a good step.

Here is the email from my ex-sponsor:

Excerpt
I had a clear distinct dream where we were all discussing this and although I have been prompted again and again to share this information I was reluctant knowing full well what your reaction would be. However last night it was way too strong and I was almost in a dream state sending this to you. Sometime in the future you may understand more of how you are helping us all. I went through all of this 25 years ago I know exactly what you are experiencing feeling and going through. It is not easy but it can be. Do not worry you are protected.

Please do not murder me. I only have 10 years left.

Hang in there XYZ' boy we want you to be successful at your job so we can all get parts of your money!

You may someday be running this company. Just think of all the p*** we can see. We love you much.

We all would have fallen off of our chairs onto the ground had you accepted what we said the fact that you reject all of that means that we are all on the right path. And the fact that I can tell you with all sincerity and you are the smartest one in the room. Just like your buddy Barack Obama.

Isn't Divine guidance screen great great and great again.

Thank you for being in my life and helping me so much. What would I do without you.?
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« Reply #261 on: September 20, 2021, 06:27:37 AM »

That's a strange email.

Since you mentioned bi polar, it made me wonder if he's in a manic state with his "dreams" and ideas. His thinking you will be running the company if only you accept your position in some plan?

While you did idolize him, consider that sponsors are lay people. Nobody certifies them. The only training they have is going through the steps themselves. Yes, we do put trust in the sponsors, but sometimes it's not a good fit. We all bring our own stuff into the group.

I got very lucky and my experience with a sponsor was different. Unfortunately, she moved right after we were finished with the steps. The sponsor needs to have boundaries as well. This is not the same as a friendship, although the love is there- it was tough love for me and she turned the mirror on me a lot. She did not tell me what to do about staying or leaving in any relationship- it was about working the steps. One exercise she has me to was to write down the names of all the people I was angry at, and then showed me where resentment was on my part- it wasn't about the other people. It wasn't about her either. She did not get emotionally involved in my relationships.  This "what would I do without you?" " We love you" is creepy and FOG inducing.

I agree that the tendency to trust and put people on a pedestal can attract people who seem to like being in a power position. I have done the same thing myself. But your sponsor needs to have a strong enough self image to recognize this, and help their sponsee work on their own self image. I am not saying your sponsor did this on purpose and his own mental illness may be a part of this and emotionally he may have felt a match with you too, but a sponsor relationship is different.

If a sponsor doesn't seem to be working out for someone, they can stop this kind of relationship and the other way around.
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« Reply #262 on: September 20, 2021, 07:25:45 PM »

I agree with Notwendy. This is a bizarre communication.

Even mentally ill people can offer helpful insight from time to time, but it’s best to be mindful about carefully vetting their advice. However, that he has a diagnosed mental disorder gives me pause. I’m certain I would not want to take advice from such a person.

Many of us have had very close relationships with people with mental disorders and we can too easily allow them undue influence out of friendship and love.

Reading that email, the first thing that comes to mind is that the author is not an emotionally healthy individual.

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« Reply #263 on: September 21, 2021, 12:42:00 PM »

Thank you both for sharing. Helps me tremendously.

I've put my ex-sponsor on my block list the time being so I don't need to see emails. Feel much more peaceful today.

I'm scared my expwbpd will infiltrate another spiritual group i'm a part of. One I deeply trust and have been a member of for nearly 10 years.

The possibility of her appearing there is because 2 of the members are also a part of the 12 step group I left, due to my ex starting to attend (the same one that my ex sponsor is a part of). Its possible that they would invite her to the other one. I'm good friends with one of those 2 members I mention. I don't know if it's appropriate to mention to him that I'd like to keep that particular group a safe place for me, therefore not to invite her in.

That may just be too controlling on my side. I don't know. I'm praying about it. It could also be that my good friend doesn't understand BPD and it could backfire and look like selfishness on my part.
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« Reply #264 on: September 22, 2021, 05:10:07 AM »

Don't worry about how it looks- self care isn't selfish and if they think that, then maybe that's not a place you wish to be.

A safe way to express your wishes is to make this about you, not her. They don't need to understand BPD because you don't need to tell them about it. You can still wish for privacy as an individual. Even someone who is happily married can also wish to have their own private spiritual space.

If you don't express your wishes, then they may think it's OK to invite her. If they do know your wishes, then they have the choice. If they invite her anyway, then you know they didn't consider your wishes. So one way to do it is to only focus on your wish.

You could, if you choose, say to "dear friend". "As you probably know, my wife and I are currently separated. She has reached out to the 12 step group and I hope that this is of benefit to her. However, due to the situation, it's important to me to have a space to connect with you that is separate from her. I truly value the connections in this (name of group) and wish to keep them just between us. Please let me know if you are willing to do this. Thank you. "

The next question though is- can you feel comfortable speaking in the group knowing they are in contact with her? I find that my BPD mother tends to see people on "her side" or "not her side" and draw people to her side. For the people connected to her, I have to consider that anything I say to them is going to be shared with her. I don't share personal information with them because of this. I have seen it happen many times. While I know you value the group, it may be better for you to have a connection with people who are not connected with her at all.

My BPD mother tends to triangulate with people- tell them things about me and make it "their secret". I am cordial and polite to people in her circle, but I keep them at an emotional distance.

Sadly, I have lost connections with people over this, and yet, I have to consider that they make their choices too. We can't control what someone else thinks.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 05:19:00 AM by Notwendy » Logged
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« Reply #265 on: January 19, 2022, 10:27:52 AM »

Thank you both for sharing. Helps me tremendously.


Hey truthdevotee.  It's been awhile since you've posted so just wanted to see how you were doing?  Hope all is well.   
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« Reply #266 on: July 31, 2023, 04:44:20 PM »

Hi all,

I was posting here a couple of years ago.

I got my own flat which I was renting for 3 months, leaving the person I believed had high-functioning BPD. Sadly, I self-sabatoged due to finding out about sexual/romantic feelings between her and my old 12 step sponsor. Ironically, my defense mechanism was to run back to her and be submissive and say that I made a mistake to get my own flat.

Things only got progressively worse. I ended up hospitalized for 10 days due to self-harm, threatening suicide, and in general I started to display BPD symptoms. She never actually displayed this - she is more of a high-functioning type, extremely controlling and dominant, as opposed to me - I'm naturally submissive and subject to doubt and inner weakness.

My behavior has devolved into deep anger and frustration. I have been verbally abusive, sadly for a few months (never devolved into physical violence, except in the form of cutting towards myself, thank God). This is not who I am or who I ever was, and I'm working on mindfulness and self-compassion as taught by Kristin Neff, to help deal with these issues and heal myself. Also have a therapist and spiritual group.

It has been such a difficult time. And, after a soul-destroying two difficult years, I realize with strong certainty that I need to do what I did then but I need to follow-through this time. I am looking for a flat and don't intend to turn back.

I've come back to this forum not to learn more about BPD; I learned a lot about that, and I recognize it in myself as well as in her. But I am clear that I am on a healing path and I am determined not to self-sabotage this time. I'm looking for a new flat.

I have two boys, 6 and 4 years old. Their mother who likely has high-functioning BPD is not well either, and the difference between her and I is that I want to separate in a cooperative collaborative way. Sadly, she is not up for this arrangement at all. It means things are going to be VERY complex. I am 50/50 as to whether she would try to eliminate me from the boys' life, but I am prepared to involve a lawyer and fight as needed.

However, the difference right now is, I am ready to do what I need to do. Find an apartment is step 1. Step 2 is how to break this news to the boys and what it might mean, before involving her. She is likely to say all kinds of horrible things about me to my children. Therefore I think I need to be strategic. I believe our 6 year old will be OK, but 4 year old is sensitive and may react with crying and trying to keep me at the flat. I'm gonna have to be strong and make the most difficult step of my life.

Open to your guidance on how to go through this in the best way for the kids, knowing that she will be very negative about me to them and use them as a tool to try to keep me around. I sense the best way will be to tell them before she is aware of it all, talk to them, tell them that I am always here for them and that I love them, and that Daddy needs to sleep in another flat which is close by, and wants to see them still every day. I think then I should leave and tell her by text message that this is what is happening (no conversations have been possible for 10 years, there is no capacity for alignment sadly). I will clearly state when and how I would like the new arrangement to work. If she refuses to align with the plan, and comes up with no other plan, I think I'll need to be strong and accept that I will not have close contact with the kids for a while until the lawyers/courts help us come to arrangement.

Does this sound like a plan?
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« Reply #267 on: July 31, 2023, 04:45:10 PM »

Hey truthdevotee.  It's been awhile since you've posted so just wanted to see how you were doing?  Hope all is well.   

Thanks so much for asking mitten. I self-sabotaged, hence my disappearance.
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« Reply #268 on: July 31, 2023, 05:12:47 PM »

Well, you’re back now, and with a plan. It would be good to get a consultation with a lawyer before you make any moves, to find out what your parental rights are and how that can be affected should you leave.
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« Reply #269 on: July 31, 2023, 09:44:31 PM »

I would be cautious about telling your children first.  Or at least when.  It's very possible they would say something that would alert your spouse before you're ready.  They may not understand why not to tell mommy.  Well, that's what came to my mind.

Lots of dads sabotage themselves somewhat because society expects kids to live with their mothers.  But your situation involves a mental health issue so that default inclination for many jurisdictions can leave you on the outside looking in, so to speak.

So ponder with your lawyer if there are any ways to leave with the children, or at least get a firm parenting schedule in place or filed with the court.
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« Reply #270 on: August 01, 2023, 07:58:18 AM »

I haven’t been able to be very strategic. Even though I’m running 7km daily for health, eating well, and taking Xanax to calm myself as well as practicing self compassion, in told the boys in front of her this morning what I’m planning and I made it sound like an adventure. Reaffirming my tremendous love for them and that we see each other every week as long as she doesn’t try to put obstacles.

Sadly I’m not in a good position given my own behaviour of late. My lifeline may be my psychiatrist who I’ve been diligently working with for years and who recognises my partner’s behaviour is abnormal even though she can’t admit to that or see it.

I can’t wait to get away and be at peace. Exhausted
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