The Bullets You Dodge

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

There's obviously lots of talk of the mistakes we've all made, how we discounted our intuition, disregarded red flags, ignored our inner daimon and so on and so forth. But then there are also instances where members make improvements to their recent actions – thinking of grumpy and Cromwell, for example. I thought it would be nice to have a thread where we can collect these learning experiences.

--

I recently met someone who seemed perfect on paper: Another pro musician, specialised in my favourite (and extremely rare) historical instrument, apparently very talented, warm-hearted, extraverted, involved in his local church group (I'm not religious but do appreciate Christian values), and very good-looking in my eyes. He enthusiastically chatted me up during the intermission of a local concert held at that church, and we had a good connection, though something seemed off. Nonetheless, the other people there were full of praise about him, praising his musical ability and sociability, and it turns out he and I share some incredibly obscure niche interests. Had I met him before the experience with my ex, I think I would have been head over heels right there and then.

He invited me to a potluck at the church a few days later, and when I went he was there – with his long-distance girlfriend of three months, who was visiting him.   It's since transpired that he's not sure where things are going with her, and whether things will work out etc. etc., and my inner Triangulation Alarm is ringing on the max setting.

Anyway, I immediately decided to forget any romantic notions and tried to keep our interactions on a professional level (I could really use a good piano partner for concerts and a project). He didn't say so explicitly, but it was quite clear that his interest in me was of a more private nature. He didn't cross the bounds of decency, but he definitely pushed them by disclosing his feelings about his current girlfriend to a complete stranger (I had asked him whether his female friend was platonic or romantic, as there is no distinction between "friend" and "girlfriend" in our native language, and he got all flustered and replied with abovementioned concerns).

Apart from the obvious dealbreaker that is his girlfriend, there are also plenty of others, such as him posting really weird, somewhat psychotic-seeming stories on Instagram – like memes about being tortured by "not knowing who I am - mood swings - dysfunction - depression - self-loathing" etc. I'd let it go if they happened every now and again (who doesn't like to be self-ironic?) but he posts them on the daily. He also likes to assert his strong political views (however vanilla) on these platforms... which I think is a no-go for any artist or musician, and makes you look unprofessional, but sadly that's not a common opinion these days.

He was gone for two weeks to visit his long-distance gf and just sent me a text asking how I've been, and that he's had a really great time abroad. Yeah, I bet. My prognosis is that he'll want to get to know me better under a platonic pretence – either because he's a normal guy who just feels he's with the wrong woman, or because he's another BPD looking for a better deal while keeping the backup ready at all times. The scales are currently tipped in favour of the latter scenario, I feel.

While I do like him and wouldn't mind having him as a platonic acquaintance, I'm collecting all the   and keeping my emotional distance. Who knows, perhaps I'm being unjust, he's a good, normal guy and there's a good explanation for everything, yada yada, but there's no way I'm going to discount the alarm bells yet another time.

[Sappho11]

There's obviously lots of talk of the mistakes we've all made, how we discounted our intuition, disregarded red flags, ignored our inner daimon and so on and so forth. But then there are also instances where members make improvements to their recent actions – thinking of grumpy and Cromwell, for example. I thought it would be nice to have a thread where we can collect these learning experiences.

--

I recently met someone who seemed perfect on paper: Another pro musician, specialised in my favourite (and extremely rare) historical instrument, apparently very talented, warm-hearted, extraverted, involved in his local church group (I'm not religious but do appreciate Christian values), and very good-looking in my eyes. He enthusiastically chatted me up during the intermission of a local concert held at that church, and we had a good connection, though something seemed off. Nonetheless, the other people there were full of praise about him, praising his musical ability and sociability, and it turns out he and I share some incredibly obscure niche interests. Had I met him before the experience with my ex, I think I would have been head over heels right there and then.

He invited me to a potluck at the church a few days later, and when I went he was there – with his long-distance girlfriend of three months, who was visiting him.   It's since transpired that he's not sure where things are going with her, and whether things will work out etc. etc., and my inner Triangulation Alarm is ringing on the max setting.

Anyway, I immediately decided to forget any romantic notions and tried to keep our interactions on a professional level (I could really use a good piano partner for concerts and a project). He didn't say so explicitly, but it was quite clear that his interest in me was of a more private nature. He didn't cross the bounds of decency, but he definitely pushed them by disclosing his feelings about his current girlfriend to a complete stranger (I had asked him whether his female friend was platonic or romantic, as there is no distinction between "friend" and "girlfriend" in our native language, and he got all flustered and replied with abovementioned concerns).

Apart from the obvious dealbreaker that is his girlfriend, there are also plenty of others, such as him posting really weird, somewhat psychotic-seeming stories on Instagram – like memes about being tortured by "not knowing who I am - mood swings - dysfunction - depression - self-loathing" etc. I'd let it go if they happened every now and again (who doesn't like to be self-ironic?) but he posts them on the daily. He also likes to assert his strong political views (however vanilla) on these platforms... which I think is a no-go for any artist or musician, and makes you look unprofessional, but sadly that's not a common opinion these days.

He was gone for two weeks to visit his long-distance gf and just sent me a text asking how I've been, and that he's had a really great time abroad. Yeah, I bet. My prognosis is that he'll want to get to know me better under a platonic pretence – either because he's a normal guy who just feels he's with the wrong woman, or because he's another BPD looking for a better deal while keeping the backup ready at all times. The scales are currently tipped in favour of the latter scenario, I feel.

While I do like him and wouldn't mind having him as a platonic acquaintance, I'm collecting all the   and keeping my emotional distance. Who knows, perhaps I'm being unjust, he's a good, normal guy and there's a good explanation for everything, yada yada, but there's no way I'm going to discount the alarm bells yet another time.

[grumpydonut]

Interesting thread again, Sappho.

Personally, I interpret anyone who speaks ill about their partner to someone they barely know as lacking moral character. Imagine loving someone who does that - oh, wait, we all have...haha.

Bullets dodged topic:

Post BPD ex:

- a girl who asked me point blank on our first date if I was going to "murder her". I took her to a hotel to sleep with her. I didn't sleep with her because I knew I wasn't safe.

- a woman who was sleeping with me but actually dating someone else, I stopped sleeping with her.

- a girl who invited me to hers for sex, started talking to herself and then asked me if I was "there to take her money like everyone else...because they (pointing at a closed door) just want my fame". I instantly made up an excuse and left.

- a woman who told me she wanted to kill herself because her partner of three weeks left her two months earlier...wait, there's more...
 
- same woman then abused me for saying "we will be in lock down until October". I said this in July. It's now September, and we are going to be in lockdown until at least mid October, but, ya know...I'm a bad person for making statistical inductions. She said "I am going to stop talking now before I say something I shouldn't" when I simply said "I think we will be in lockdown until October". When I then said "well that's slightly rude, can't I have an opinion?" she went crazy! I cut her off.

- my first ex gf, and love of my life, tried to come back into my life to prop up her ego. I saw through this, was very forward on what her intentions were, she wanted to play coy, so I cut her. She instantly blocked me, to highlight (to me, anyway) it was all about power and ego - I have strong suspicion she is BPD due to her being very similar in thought to my last ex, and also due to her cheating on and monkey branching from every partner she's ever had.

- another girl threatened to kill herself in order to get attention, she didn't and said "it's not my fault you stayed up worrying about me". Instantly cut her out.

And, that's probably about it. As you can see, I have a knack for attracting these types. I entered therapy BECAUSE I have a knack for attracting these types, thus I am obviously a large part of the problem.

The only difference now, and therefore the "bullets dodged" component to all this, is that I now have boundaries that save me from ongoing drama. I am no longer trying to fill my own void and prove my own worth through being someone's saviour, while I'm still not yet emotionally mature enough to attract the type of woman I want.

One day.

[Sappho11]

Good God grumpy, that's quite the list! Did you meet those women at University, because if so, it sure seems as if there's truth to the psychology student stereotype  

(please don't take me seriously on this one)

[B53]

Hi Sappho,

I think you are being very wise. What most of us have in common here is that we ignored the red flags and didn’t listen to our gut feeling. As they say, “ If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck”.

He may not be physically cheating on his gf, but he is emotional cheating on her. If he will do it to her he will do it to you.

However you handle the situation is not for me to judge, but this is how I would handle it. I would continue a friendship or professional relationship only if his gf is aware of your existence. If he gives you a story that paints her in a bad light or makes excuses for not wanting to tell her, than I would question his integrity.

It feels good to know that someone is interested in you even if you don’t act upon it. There is no harm in enjoying that.

B53

[Sappho11]

Hi Sappho,

I think you are being very wise. What most of us have in common here is that we ignored the red flags and didn’t listen to our gut feeling. As they say, “ If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck”.

He may not be physically cheating on his gf, but he is emotional cheating on her. If he will do it to her he will do it to you.

Thank you. Yes, that's the way of the world...

However you handle the situation is not for me to judge, but this is how I would handle it. I would continue a friendship or professional relationship only if his gf is aware of your existence. If he gives you a story that paints her in a bad light or makes excuses for not wanting to tell her, than I would question his integrity.

That is excellent advice, I'll take it. Thank you.

It feels good to know that someone is interested in you even if you don’t act upon it. There is no harm in enjoying that.

I'm not so sure. Admiration can be intoxicating, and I think most people who end up having affairs thought they could handle it, too.

My action plan is to wait and see and to keep some distance at all times. We're probably going to meet up to play some music together. If he gets flirty, I'm going to tell him I don't coquet with men who are taken (thankfully, I've got enough experience doing that with great firmness). If he respects that and acts accordingly thereafter, great. If he flies into a rage or otherwise acts out, becomes manipulative or else – well, then I guess I know what this is and can put an end to this acquaintance with no losses on either side.

[B53]

Good plan!

[grumpydonut]

Haha, @Sap

No, not uni. I work full time, so I do my university course via online. These girls have mostly been met through Instagram. I used to have a small following on Instagram for adventure photos. I cut it back to just my friends due to this, haha

[Cromwell]

My is more aligned with grumpys experience but it was these moments that stood out. Its a bit like emergency services workers i have recently met they tell how their jobs can be 99% routine being, 1% sheer horror

It's the 1% of extreme hard to deal with experiences that caused the damage to be fixed.

My ex did not have particular skills or talents and at time carried an extra form of feeling of worthlessness from this. Fortunately {for me) she had lost obviously in hindsight an ongoing mild depression and this along with her bpd therapy may have put a lid on the recurrence of events. I went through the 1% moments but it could have been worse. I did not dodge a bullet Sappho i simply got hit and not mortally wounded.

[Sappho11]

Update on the original post.

So the young, handsome, charismatic, yet somehow strange-seeming pro musician I met in late September returned from the visit to his long-distance girlfriend in Switzerland. He asked me to meet up, and we met in a coffeehouse two or three weeks ago.

The attraction was still magnetic. He told me that he had broken up with the Swiss girl, but that they were still good friends. He said he had realised he still had healing to do from a former relationship, and that it was too soon for him to get into a new one. We talked a lot, and we had the strangest of commonalities – such as love for obscure historical instruments as well as unknown German poets, a shared love of philosophy, among other more mundane things. There seemed to be nothing we disagreed on.  

He mentioned that he was going to receive a beautiful historical key instrument on loan from a friendly collector, and asked whether I needed it? He'd gladly leave it at my place while he was deciding what to finally do with it. Of course I jumped at the chance – this particular instrument was possibly the only material item which I'd ever longed to have (they cost a fortune   and are usually only available to museums). It was as if he had read my mind.  

He was also keen to see me again, so we arranged to go for a hike one of the following weekends.

Well, a few days later, he and his friend arrived with the priceless instrument. Actually my strange love interest arrived half an hour early, and the friend who owns the instrument was conveniently late by another hour. I didn't mind. We played piano duets on my own piano, drank tea and chatted quite intimately.

The instrument arrived, the generous friend eventually left, leaving me with my strange, charismatic benefactor, who became even more charismatic by the minute. I'm staunchly conservative in romantic matters and a firm believer in proper courtship, but one thing led to another, and we ended up in bed sometime around dawn. This had never happened to me before in all 32 years of my life. It was obvious that he was quite seasoned. I actually told him "no" several times, but he piled on the charm, and sensuality got the better of me... I don't think I'd ever seen such conviction.  

We met up a couple more times, which all ended in pretty much the same way, me going there with the full intention of sticking to my principles, and him artfully dismantling them. And for what it's worth, I must say the time was wonderful. I'd never been with such a skilled lover in all respects: He invited me out to places, stayed in touch between our trysts, sent me cute texts, told me sweet nothings, gave me books to read. We made out on a forest clearing like teenagers and played piano duets in the nude. All quite cinematic.

For what it's worth, that guy made me feel better and more loved and appreciated in two weeks than my BPD ex-boyfriend ever did in several years. But I also saw the parallels. Both had a strange bent to their characters, as if there was something broken deep inside them. Both needed A LOT of physical affection. Both still weren't quite over their last relationships. Both were emotionally unavailable. Curiously enough, they have the same dishevelled haircut and even are the same height, down to the very centimetre. And most of all, despite all the sweet words, I somehow always had the quiet, nagging feeling of not being quite good enough – for no reason in particular.  

But this one was accomplished, talented, truly musical, EXTREMELY charismatic and outgoing, affectionate even when he was gone... so could this be it? I was in the process of catching feelings when my constant suspicion was confirmed.

I'm old enough to know that no man learns the female anatomy from the book. He knew his way around better than I do! And the way he went about the entire choreography – from first chatting me up, to escalating to physical intimacies, the constant contact... it seemed to good to be true.

Well, this time I was in luck, because I met him in a group setting where I had made another (mutual) friend. My strange lover also invited me to a concert of his, where I found myself chatting quite candidly with some of his friends and colleagues. Turns out he is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge womaniser! No surprises here. I actually used to tease him with that before we first ended up in bed together, and he played all coy. The minx!

He was very keen on me meeting his friends, I'll give him that – he's been honest with me about his emotional situation from the start, and has never lied to me as far as I can tell. With the exception of coaxing me into bed at the cost of my sense of decency, he's treated me well (and admittedly, even those transgressions were rather enjoyable). But I see that especially in the past few months (and possibly before), he seems to have left quite the emotional trail of destruction. Our mutual church friend told me that Mr Womaniser had been courting a church girl quite enthusiastically a few months prior – which followed exactly the same storyline: She was conservative, wanted a relationship and scuppered all her principles to be with him, when to him it was just a fling.  

With her, the Swiss girl, the ex-girlfriend with whom he dramatically broke up (and who allegedly used to beat him), a female colleague of his who nearly cried when she saw me at his last concert, and a lady he wants to visit in Greece in a couple of weeks' time, and not least, this fool here named yours truly, that gives him quite the handsome amount of notches on his bedposts in the space of, I don't know, four months? Geez. Did I mention he's not only travelling to Greece in November, but also to Switzerland to meet up with his "definitely platonic" ex LDR girlfriend? Yeah, right.  

Every now and again he's hinted that "The time isn't right for me now, but you're wonderful, so who knows what will be in a couple of months' time...", to which I generally reply something along the lines of "Hold your tongue, that's dangerous talk". I like him, but I don't trust him, and there is NO way I'll ever override my intuition on such things again.  

I also noticed that lately, we have suddenly been finding antagonisms upon antagonisms, which is a far cry from the "fateful" kinship we felt at the start... doesn't that sound familiar to you?   Yeah, not trusting that either, I know the drill now.

He claims to be afflicted by Asperger's, which I find easy to believe (I have a few friends with the condition and he fits the type, though none of them are as socially skilled as him). He seems to have been badly burned by his last (and abusive) relationship (of which he's posted on FB – true or a smear campaign?), but when I spoke to our mutual friend (a Catholic Englishman 20 years my senior, who seems to genuinely have my best interests at heart), that friend told me that he knew nothing of a dramatic breakup  , that he had instead seen Mr Womaniser chase that church girl around the time the breakup supposedly happened, and that, in the strictest confidence, he "wouldn't advise any dear friend of his to fall for that young man's swagger, that certain Bohemian charm which only appeals to a very certain, naive subset of woman".

I trust my English friend, and this time I also trust my intuition, so I've mentally detached from all further notions of romance. There is no doubt I'll meet young wannabe-Casanova again, but I've already dialled down the sweetness in my texts to him and I'm fully resolved to lay down the law the next time I meet him: that he needs to watch out with the womanising because he's hurting people, that he seriously needs a better coping strategy, and that I'll gladly be platonic (!) friends with him because I like his music and large parts of his personality, but that there will be no further romantic attention from me.

To his credit, he seems to handle criticism well; early on he mentioned that he likes people who tell him the things he doesn't want to hear, I told him he had to stop posting psychotic and deranged memes on his professional social media, and he actually did. So we'll see how the next meeting goes.

Posting this here so I have someone to hold me accountable.  

[Ad Meliora]

and that I'll gladly be platonic (!) friends with him because I like his music and large parts of his personality, but that there will be no further romantic attention from me.

Accountability police here (sirens sounding, lights flashing)...okay, not really at all.  This story is quite a bit more juicy that the flat-finding facts.  Wow!  I ate almost a half-bag of Doritos reading it!

Sounds like a good time, maybe a great time.  You're entitled to have a good time, do what you want and pursue whom you want living 'la vida single...' etc...  I think it's good to check his story out, and it looks like some facts aren't lining up too good.  Some men are just womanizers and don't have a PD, and that goes for women too.  If we get into it some men are just a$$holes and women b*tches and they may or may not have BPD traits or NPD traits, but likely they do have some of those as well.  Always good to do your research, and it sounds like you have a good approach.  We'll see if you stick to your guns in two weeks or so, right?

So not to brag, but one of the things that was good about the relationship with my ex was the physical part.  She liked that I knew what I was doing and remarked about it often.  I was surprised because it seemed like she had as much experience as she was older than me, but again I was never sure about the things she talked about in the past as being true or not.  Maybe in true form of the BPD personality she actually didn't really seem to understand her body any better than she understood herself.  I may have mentioned this before but I thought (foolishly) that since that physical part worked okay I thought I could get her to relax and open up emotionally and build from that.  No way.

What inspired me is that I found her very attractive so it was easy to be "all about her" for me.  I even took one of the surveys here on the site which asked about "sexual style".  In the past I saw myself as somewhere between a "truster" and a "purist", and was definitely a "giver" in that relationship.  Anyway, she was using it as a tool to further keep me hooked and control me, but she was enjoying every bit of it, that's for sure! 
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=299932

On the platonic friend part I'm not sure that's going to work so well in this instance.  I actually no longer believe truly platonic relationships can exist between people of the opposite sex (or the sex you're attracted to).  I had a wonderful platonic relationship with a woman who was a good friend in college of about 20 years until it accidentally turned physical when my BiPD ex broke up with me in 2012.  There's always a tension there, and for me it alternated between who was more attracted to whom over the course of the relationship.  An intimate and affectionate relationship between two people of the opposing sexes works only until it doesn't.  Professional relationships, acquaintance relationships, or basic friendships all are fine.  A literal "platonic" relationship is an impossibility.  That relationship is now ruined as when I split with my BiPDex she got into my email, saw what happened with my friend was inappropriate and flamed me to all the contacts she could find in my inbox.  She even emailed my BPDex who was a brand new relationship at the time.  It was funny, because my BPDex called me up about it and I took responsibility adding, "I'm human and make mistakes"--she hung up on me.  The next day we were set to drive across the country with her cat, I thought she was done with me (potentially).  She was all smiles and ready to go.  The conversation from the previous night completely forgotten.    !  I got in that car anyway and drove (...myself crazy for the next 12 months!).

[poppy2]

and I'm fully resolved to lay down the law the next time I meet him: that he needs to watch out with the womanising because he's hurting people, that he seriously needs a better coping strategy, and that I'll gladly be platonic (!) friends with him because I like his music and large parts of his personality, but that there will be no further romantic attention from me.

To his credit, he seems to handle criticism well; early on he mentioned that he likes people who tell him the things he doesn't want to hear, I told him he had to stop posting psychotic and deranged memes on his professional social media, and he actually did. So we'll see how the next meeting goes.

Posting this here so I have someone to hold me accountable.  

Hah, wow Sappho! what a saga. I mean, if you're going to be wined and dined, then you may as well be wined and dined along with temporary possession of a priceless old instrument

I appreciate your integrity when you say you're going to 'lay down the law' in a kind of forthright tete a tete... However, let's not forget - he may not have any integrity to relate to. So you could tell him such things (there's no harm in it), or you could show him such things.. I mean, don't inform him, just be cold, aloof, distant, or whatever. Make him feel like he's done something wrong or youre suddenly not interested. Thank him for the gifts and appreciate his friendship but leave it at that.

For what it's worth, this is what I learnt about pursuers from my last r/s... it's a game. And I tried to play that game with love, kindness, trust, honesty, 'rules', fair play, etc. These were all the things I wanted, or rules I played by, not realizing that for some people it is just a game and there are no rules. So, if you have a feeling it's just a game this time around, without any other principles - play him

happy to read that you've been showered with affection! I did recieve a lovely compliment myself the other day, but it was from my housemates girlfriend (still happy to get it though

poppy out

[Sappho11]

AdMeliora, poppy – thank you for your replies. Oh boy, have I got news for you (in the post below this one)...

On the platonic friend part I'm not sure that's going to work so well in this instance.  I actually no longer believe truly platonic relationships can exist between people of the opposite sex (or the sex you're attracted to).  I had a wonderful platonic relationship with a woman who was a good friend in college of about 20 years until it accidentally turned physical when my BiPD ex broke up with me in 2012.  There's always a tension there, and for me it alternated between who was more attracted to whom over the course of the relationship.  An intimate and affectionate relationship between two people of the opposing sexes works only until it doesn't.  Professional relationships, acquaintance relationships, or basic friendships all are fine.  A literal "platonic" relationship is an impossibility.  That relationship is now ruined as when I split with my BiPDex she got into my email, saw what happened with my friend was inappropriate and flamed me to all the contacts she could find in my inbox.  She even emailed my BPDex who was a brand new relationship at the time.  It was funny, because my BPDex called me up about it and I took responsibility adding, "I'm human and make mistakes"--she hung up on me.  The next day we were set to drive across the country with her cat, I thought she was done with me (potentially).  She was all smiles and ready to go.  The conversation from the previous night completely forgotten.    !  I got in that car anyway and drove (...myself crazy for the next 12 months!).

I don't know, perhaps it's naiveté, but I do think friendships between opposite sexes can work, as long as there are some ground rules being followed. My native language has a formal form of address, which immensely helps in keeping emotional distance. And it's also acceptable to never have any kind of physical contact with a friend, except for a handshake when greeting. Both is considered a bit odd and overly formal, but it works for me. As for the attraction which naturally occurs every now and again, I don't know, I interpret this as tender moments, but they tend to be fleeting and ethereal. But it's well possible that I simply see it different because I'm a woman.

One of my male friends once said that no man is friends with a woman he wouldn't sleep with. That's probably a huge exaggeration, but I suppose there's a kernel of truth in it.

Hah, wow Sappho! what a saga. I mean, if you're going to be wined and dined, then you may as well be wined and dined along with temporary possession of a priceless old instrument

I appreciate your integrity when you say you're going to 'lay down the law' in a kind of forthright tete a tete... However, let's not forget - he may not have any integrity to relate to. So you could tell him such things (there's no harm in it), or you could show him such things.. I mean, don't inform him, just be cold, aloof, distant, or whatever. Make him feel like he's done something wrong or youre suddenly not interested. Thank him for the gifts and appreciate his friendship but leave it at that.

For what it's worth, this is what I learnt about pursuers from my last r/s... it's a game. And I tried to play that game with love, kindness, trust, honesty, 'rules', fair play, etc. These were all the things I wanted, or rules I played by, not realizing that for some people it is just a game and there are no rules. So, if you have a feeling it's just a game this time around, without any other principles - play him

happy to read that you've been showered with affection! I did recieve a lovely compliment myself the other day, but it was from my housemates girlfriend (still happy to get it though

poppy out

Thank you for the excellent advice, poppy! Those were my thoughts exactly in the past couple of days: "No biggie, I'll stay emotionally detached, and perhaps I'll give him a taste of his own medicine!"

Happy to hear you got a lovely compliment! What was it? Or is it too personal?

[Sappho11]

So the plot thickens...

Last night I went to the concert of a colleague's. We're very similar in many ways, he's my age, rather attractive, and we're meeting up in the coffeehouse today to discuss business (I think – he seems very keen).

The concert was a blast, and I was so hyped up that I texted young Casanova whether he was still going out tonight? He'd been texting me the past couple of days that he had been holed up at home because he was quite exhausted from his own concerts. I was actually kind of wondering whether he was ill, because it didn't seem like him.

Anyway, I more or less invited myself over, he was in his pyjamas and welcomed me with great cordiality. I played things cool, we talked about this and that, and he was visibly confused because of my matter-of-fact behaviour. I noticed that there was a slight hint of displeasure in his face whenever I mentioned male colleagues of mine, including the one I was going to see today.

Somehow the chat strayed to more emotional subjects and I told him, "You always want to hear unpleasant things when they concern you, so here goes – as a friend, I'm telling you: You've got to watch out with the womanising. You're in the process of acquiring quite the uncomplimentary reputation, and..."
He looked at me with maximum astonishment. "Womanising? Me? What womanising...?"
I mentioned his list of conquests. He laughed with complete bemusement. "What? Her? Never! Completely platonic, always has been. Not even a shred of attraction on either side." He continued to rebut every single of his alleged conquests. And added, with a twinge of genuine hurt, "Seriously, those times are past. Yes, I had my times of gallivanting. But those are long gone." He smiled and caressed my hand. "Are you a little jealous...?"
"Pfff, jealous! It's not like we're serious."
He looked a bit hurt. "Honestly, are you worried about us? Because the inner healing I have to do... that's something I have to do on my own, but that doesn't conflict with us getting to know one another better. And I do want to get you know you better. Not just as a fling, but as a person. I'm really happy that I met you."

It also turns out he suffers from depression, so he doesn't always feel up to going out and doing things (apparently he's been a little low lately).

So what can I say? I thawed, and we ended up snuggling on the couch. I told him I was going to leave if he started any shenanigans, and of course he tried, I tried to leave, and eventually he promised he'd be good and that we could just hold one another and listen to some music. So we lay on the couch in the darkened room, listening to Keith Jarrett.

Well, I trusted the cheeky thing and of course he got his way again! At least I resisted for a couple of hours this time (minor progress, if you ask me). He asked me to stay, that he would make me breakfast in the morning, but I said I'd rather go home, which I did somewhere around five in the morning. "Send a text when you get home." "I'll take a cab, I'll be fine." "Still, please do." "Right."

He's been texting all day – apparently he seems to cope worse on little sleep than I do, so I guess that serves him right.  

Honestly, if that man is play-acting and completely outwitting me – I'd probably be quite impressed. Not sure I could even be angry at him.

Oh, before I forget the other tidbit – it seems as if the Catholic Englishman 20 years my senior seems to have bit of a thing for me – so who knows, that anecdote about the church girl might be completely made up. Or not.

We'll see.

[grumpydonut]

"Womanising? Me? What womanising...?"

"Seriously, those times are past."

Interesting reaction. He admits he was a womaniser, but thinks it's bemusing you'd ask him about whether he was still womanising...

"Are you a little jealous...?"

What's there to be jealous of if he's not womanising and those times are past?

"What? Her? Never! Completely platonic, always has been. Not even a shred of attraction on either side."

I'd dig deeper on this one.

It also turns out he suffers from depression

Do you want to start a relationship with someone with depression? It's a lot of work, and you're not yet invested.

I told him I was going to leave if he started any shenanigans, and of course he tried, I tried to leave, and eventually he promised he'd be good

Overall: I perceive s

Why did he ever womanise? What hole did that fill? How long has he had depression? I'd be cautious, Sappho.

[poppy2]

we'll see

Hey Sappho

Um, I think she said I had a beautiful face? can't remember exactly, as she just told my roommate not me. Anyway, I'll take it.

I'm really glad you're having some adventures! and it seems that you're in demand with quite a few people I would just like to say, since you're sharing these stories on the forum, that I wouldn't like to see you get hurt though, as well.

As long as you feel like you're in the driving seat, I think it could be really healthy (apart from being physically nice) to have a fling after a difficult r/s. Just to sort of interact in a way that doesn't overly challenge your synapses with all the other big questions.

In terms of what grumpy donut said though... any particular reason you think he told you he had depression (don't know how well you know him, could be oversharing to elicit caretaker sympathies/ could also just be being honest)? and also, I would generally say that sexual boundaries should always be firm. It can be a gray area, I know, and desires get all mixed up.. but still. Best if those signals don't get too mixed up.

love
poppy

PS how great is it how this forum became like an agony aunt advice column? "dear Bpdfamily, I recently met a new composer and I'm unsure if xyyz... sharing new (mis-) adventures. It's so sweet you do that!

[Ad Meliora]

PS how great is it how this forum became like an agony aunt advice column? "dear Bpdfamily, I recently met a new composer and I'm unsure if xyyz... sharing new (mis-) adventures. It's so sweet you do that!

Why not?  Sappho has at least three aunt agony replies, that's better than one (probably better thought out?)!    You get to share what you want and can get feedback from people not invested in your situation and aren't looking at judging you.  We want you to succeed in future relationships in a post BPDex world.  I don't have anything to add, seems like you're handling it well.

I lost a friend of 26 years, who I really could've used during this BPD r/s and break-up time.  She was my closest friend.  We shared that close connection and she would've found some poetry for me or written me an original work.  She always had an overabundance of advice, as she was a problem solver.  It's the literal definition of platonic, not the conventional use. 

She was having problems in her marriage and I was single, hurt, and vulnerable.  She did too good of a job consoling me.  I would gladly trade those months of physical intimacy to have my friend back now.  That's my advice, it's for the long-term thinker in you.

[Sappho11]

At this point I should probably clarify that I'm not really emotionally involved. If this went sideways, I think my pride would be a little hurt, though I'm not even sure that that would be the case given the good time that it currently is.

I am keeping in mind the red flags, no ifs, no buts, and I'm constantly on watch for subtle signs of devaluation. So far, none. But it's early days.

One thing that stands out is the fact that I don't feel insecure in the slightest. When I think back to the relationship with my BPDex, every day (even during the honeymoon period!) was a nightmare of anxiety, wondering where I stood, trying to compete for his affection. FWIW, I've never felt that way with the curious "does he/doesn't he womanise?" pianist. He's been candid about his feelings from the start, so far he's been reliable in word and deed, and generally goes out of his way to accommodate my wishes, if I voice them directly. At present, I really can't complain.

Do you want to start a relationship with someone with depression? It's a lot of work, and you're not yet invested.

Overall: I perceive s

Why did he ever womanise? What hole did that fill? How long has he had depression? I'd be cautious, Sappho.

Thank you grumpy, excellent advice. I'll keep it in mind.

Depression in itself isn't a dealbreaker to me. I've had times in my life where I would have qualified for a diagnosis myself. Also the love of my youth, whom I loved dearly, was originally diagnosed with severe depression; yes, some days it was difficult to get him out of bed, but it never affected our relationship. He always made sure I knew how much he loved me, even when his condition made it difficult for him to express anything. He got a lot better over the course of our time together, and the truth is I would have stuck with him even if he hadn't; he was a good man and never once pushed me into the caretaking role. So as long as I can keep my integrity the way I did then, I'm not too daunted.

Hey Sappho

Um, I think she said I had a beautiful face? can't remember exactly, as she just told my roommate not me. Anyway, I'll take it.

Nice one! I love it when women compliment other women for their appearance. So wholesome!

I'm really glad you're having some adventures! and it seems that you're in demand with quite a few people I would just like to say, since you're sharing these stories on the forum, that I wouldn't like to see you get hurt though, as well.

As long as you feel like you're in the driving seat, I think it could be really healthy (apart from being physically nice) to have a fling after a difficult r/s. Just to sort of interact in a way that doesn't overly challenge your synapses with all the other big questions.

Thank you for your concern! I'll take care of myself this time.

In terms of what grumpy donut said though... any particular reason you think he told you he had depression (don't know how well you know him, could be oversharing to elicit caretaker sympathies/ could also just be being honest)?

He definitely didn't proffer it, I mentioned he seemed to have a strongly melancholy side to him and it more or less just slipped out, and he seemed to be somewhat embarrassed about it. It seemed genuine, but of course I could be wrong.

I've noticed he has some facial micro-tells when he's unsure or fibbing. Or perhaps those are fake tells and he's a genius of manipulation for crafting such a subtle double bluff. He's highly intelligent, I wouldn't put it past him. The jury is still out on this one.

and also, I would generally say that sexual boundaries should always be firm. It can be a gray area, I know, and desires get all mixed up.. but still. Best if those signals don't get too mixed up.

Yes! Agreed.

Indeed!

PS how great is it how this forum became like an agony aunt advice column? "dear Bpdfamily, I recently met a new composer and I'm unsure if xyyz... sharing new (mis-) adventures. It's so sweet you do that!

Frankly I'm not so sure this is even appropriate of me, I feel a bit like I'm attending a funeral while dressed for the Pride Parade. But Sinister Complex (?) said that this board is for applying the lessons to new relationships too, isn't it?

I lost a friend of 26 years, who I really could've used during this BPD r/s and break-up time.  She was my closest friend.  We shared that close connection and she would've found some poetry for me or written me an original work.  She always had an overabundance of advice, as she was a problem solver.  It's the literal definition of platonic, not the conventional use. 

She was having problems in her marriage and I was single, hurt, and vulnerable.  She did too good of a job consoling me.  I would gladly trade those months of physical intimacy to have my friend back now.  That's my advice, it's for the long-term thinker in you.

I'm sorry for your loss, Ad Meliora.  : (  From what you've mentioned, it seems you both went through a difficult incident at the hands of your BiPD ex – but none that was your fault. Don't you think you can rekindle the friendship? Who knows, perhaps she is waiting for you to reach out. She wasn't only your friend for 26 years, you were also hers. I wouldn't be surprised if she wanted the friendship back just as much as you.

[Sappho11]

So I met my colleague from yesterday's concert, a composer, in the coffeehouse today

Oh boy. Where was that guy two years ago? We both compose a very similar kind of music (which is somewhat obscure), have similar aesthetic principles, and we both like structure, formality and minimalism in all areas of life. We're from a curiously similar background and even read the same books.

I actually listened to his music a lot when I was with my BPD ex to remind myself that there were other men out there whom I found attractive, men who were actually talented and whose head and heart seemed to be in the right place. It was all a hypothetical fancy at the time, of course.

So today we spent a good two hours together, discussing future business ventures and some minor private matters. He's four years younger than I am, accordingly an equal number of years behind in his career and experience, and when I elaborated  some ways in which he could monetise his music which he hadn't yet thought of, he looked at me as if I was the Messiah. Not going to lie, it was flattering, not least because he looked quite smitten in general. He did hint at a more private interest but I kept it businesslike.

We agreed to work together on a future concert and when we parted, he was still buzzing with excitement, his cheeks all flushed, and he sent me a giddy message afterwards.

So who knows, if the pianist doesn't work out, I might have a composer-pianist lined up. 

[poppy2]

Frankly I'm not so sure this is even appropriate of me, I feel a bit like I'm attending a funeral while dressed for the Pride Parade. But Sinister Complex (?) said that this board is for applying the lessons to new relationships too, isn't it?

Well, as a queer person I can say that every pride parade is also partly a funeral, so personally I don't see the contradiction. I think it's great you share your stories and  I like the collegiate atmosphere on the boards where people are rooting for you.

For me it feels a little like we're the class Of Summer 2021, or whatever..when will we graduate  ? and I already see the new ones come in, fresh from a breakup, poor dears, but we can help them.

I also wanted to hijack your thread a little and just share a memory. It's getting to winter and a friend of mine was telling me about her new flat with a wood stove. It reminded me of my ex's flat, the first one I'd been in with a coal oven for heating (was/still is kind of common in Germany). I love fires so much from my home country and would love to make the fire, and she would tell me, 'wow, you're so good at that, I love that you do that' and so on. It's true, I am good at making fires and feel that they make 'great company', but these memories really get coloured by the BPD for me. I miss her coal oven and warmth of the night by her fire, but I also think - God, that wasn't a nice compliment between adults, it was a childlike mind 'looking up' to me somehow. It's just so sad/doomed how instead of a reciprocal exchange, the whole experience becomes somehow suspect in the light of what I now know... it's both terribly sad and also so ultimately... bland? banal? I don't have the word for it. Once you realize you mean nothing, the other times lose a lot of lustre.

Mixed feelings, for me. Anyway hijack over

"We agreed to work together on a future concert and when we parted, he was still buzzing with excitement, his cheeks all flushed, and he sent me a giddy message afterwards.

So who knows, if the pianist doesn't work out, I might have a composer-pianist lined up.  Lol"

  

[Ad Meliora]

For me it feels a little like we're the class Of Summer 2021, or whatever..when will we graduate  ? and I already see the new ones come in, fresh from a breakup, poor dears, but we can help them.

Mid-term Grades for Class of Summer of 2021
Grumpy--A
Poppy--A
Sappho--A

Sappho's ex... "A" w/ "-Hole" attached
Poppy's ex..."T" for Trauma inducer
Grumpy's ex gets a "B", which sounds good, but it stands for "Bucket w/holes"

[poppy2]

Mid-term Grades for Class of Summer of 2021
Grumpy--A
Poppy--A
Sappho--A

Sappho's ex... "A" w/ "-Hole" attached
Poppy's ex..."T" for Trauma inducer
Grumpy's ex gets a "B", which sounds good, but it stands for "Bucket w/holes"

hahahaha thanks for the laugh

Ad Meliora A* (* for extra conscientious forum participation)

[Ad Meliora]

Ad Meliora A* (* for extra conscientious forum participation)

I'll take it! How many credits do we get (all of them  ?  Can those credits transfer to other parts of our life?  That's real question, I sure hope so.

[Ad Meliora]

So who knows, if the pianist doesn't work out, I might have a composer-pianist lined up. 

So how is Bachelor #2 working out so far?  Any updates?  In the USA we had an old program called "The Dating Game" where contestants could ask questions of three hidden bachelor contestants.  Eventually, picking one of the three for date.

With that in mind I think you should go for 3!  Sounds like you might need a back-up to the back-up as Bachelor #1 seems to have faded from the picture.

As long as there are women and men there's probably always going to be some guy who has a special "instrument" he wants to show you in an undisclosed location and that goes for women as well.  I didn't kiss my BPDex until almost a month after our first encounter.  There were lots of reasons for that, one of which was she was hard to read.  I had to ask her if it was alright, but things moved fast from there.  Later that evening she took me by both arms and dragged me into her bedroom.  A situation most guys would find hard to say "no" to if at all attracted to the person. Now, in hindsight, I can see that was a  .  Should've put the brakes on, but she was soo...ah, you know what I'll say here.

So what's the point of that? Not sure, just glad someone on this list is seeing some action in the romance department, and, oh yeah, you need a third player to complete the Trifecta.  Water has three states of existence (ice, liquid, and steam),  there are 3 darts to throw at the board--if they all hit the bullseye you get a "hat trick".  There's the holy trinity if you find yourself in a religious mood.  Three, it's a good number.

[Sappho11]

As long as there are women and men there's probably always going to be some guy who has a special "instrument" he wants to show you in an undisclosed location and that goes for women as well.

  I see this is turning into a thread of light-hearted entertainment   Fair enough, I'm here for it.

Bachelor #2 and I are meeting again next week to compare our respective repertoires and work out a joint concert schedule. Since we're going to perform pieces for piano four-hands, that'll probably turn into a regular rehearsal, which I'm quite happy about.

So upon my prying, the Pianist (Bachelor #1) reluctantly admitted that he had had bit of a sombre weekend (apparently spent it holed up at home, cancelling all his plans, including a friend's party he'd been looking forward to) on top of his already-sombre week. Yesterday was a lovely day and I had nothing to do, so I decided to pop over to his place and gently force him to put on some clothes and go for a walk in the sun.

Well, that failed spectacularly because he didn't open the door, and I sent him around seven messages telling him to open up, like a crazy stalker. I left him a note at the door as well as some mood-boosting vitamin D pills, then went back home.

Strangely enough, in times past I would have been worried to death, thinking: "Oh my God, he must think I'm a madwoman, showing up at his place unannounced and leaving him all these messages." But there was no shred of doubt in my mind. I actually went home in high spirits, because I felt I had acted congruently with my own desires. I had wanted to cheer him up a little, and I had tried. That was good enough for me, no matter what he was going to think. Caretaking behaviour? Not pathologically, because this time my happiness wasn't tied to his reaction.

An hour after I was back home, he phoned (!).
"Oh my God, were you at my place?"
– "Yes, I was. I thought I'd gently force you to leave your mental cloister and soak up some sun."
"What? Noo! I was home – just listened to music on headphones for four straight hours and didn't hear a thing! I'm so sorry! Seeing you would have been awesome. Darn it! You were really here?"
– "Yes, silly. Open your door! I left something there."
"Okay, hold on for a moment. [door clicks] Oh goodness, vitamin D pills! Just what I need. You're a treasure. I can't believe I missed you! God, that really bugs me now. I'm so sorry you came all this way for nothing! Why didn't you say you were coming...? Can we meet next week...?"

So now we're taking an afternoon walk through the forest on Tuesday. Which is handy, because that's a set appointment with a fixed beginning and end (I've got a business meeting afterwards), and there's zero chance for anything sexual happening that day. So hopefully I'll be able to gauge a couple of things – whether he's actually interested in me or whether he only talks about himself, or more telling yet, whether he cancels last minute – which would give me quite a good indication that he's only in it for the physical side of things (at which point I'll happily move on, because ain't nobody got time for that). My narc alarm is on full alert, and I'll be trusting my gut if things go wrong.

Strangely enough, for the past month or so, I've been having exactly the opposite experience from dating my ex-boyfriend.
Ex-boyfriend: Everything felt bad and unstable, but my mind told me that everything was fine and that I was just being anxious (when really I wasn't, and there was good reason for my anxiety).
This guy: Everything feels overwhelmingly honest, stable and warm (despite his candidly proclaimed emotional unavailability), yet my mind is telling me to be on the lookout, and constantly keeps all red flags in mind. As Ad Meliora said, some parts of his story "don't line up too good". I'm definitely NOT getting carried away.

In other news, I signed up on Tinder again, but this time I'll do it differently. I used to go out with virtually any match that asked, and I wasn't very picky – which resulted in quite a few dates with men whom I found rather unattractive. So my new strategy is to only invest time and effort into men where I feel there might be an actual connection. We'll see.

[Sappho11]

At this point I should add that there is a facet to the Pianist which I find rather curious, and which might become unsettling.

He seems to be a terrible liar (he's got quite a few obvious tells when he's fibbing), but in some things he shows a strange conviction, even when he is wrong. I also noticed he likes being in control – both with regards to feelings, as well as in the bedroom – and with "like", I mean he actively relishes it, perhaps more than is normal.

His ex-girlfriend called him a "narcissistic sociopath", and well, we all know how exes can be, but still – such things usually aren't said light-heartedly.

I'm still on the fence about his character; he's highly intelligent, and it's entirely possible that the warm-hearted, charismatic person he presents is but a mere front to mask a wolfish, calculating nature.

Perhaps a good thing that he says he's still hung up on his ex-girlfriend and I get to keep my distance more easily – easier to illuminate someone's personality before you enter into an actual relationship with them and your vision gets all clouded by rose-coloured glasses and putative future potential.

[Newdawnnewday]

Put your shield up, Sappho, I think you're getting too many redflags from the Pianist.

I hope you don't mind my saying so. I really wouldn't want to see you hurt.

From what I have gathered, it is still time to get out completely, is it not ?

And, unharmed.

I really hope I'm not being a kill-joy here, but what his ex says about him... and him being a liar... and him, not "hearing" you when you came around this week-end... this is too dark and mysterious, in my opinion. I do not like the feel of it.

Hopefully you won't mind me saying so. I just, I wish... if it were me, that you would tell me.

If you stop seeing him completely :
- what would it cost you (a week of imbalance ? two weeks ? but during these weeks, you could reflect back and perhaps, realize that he REALLY is a dangerous person for you, and that you have literally, dodged a bullet) ?
- how would it benefit you.
Write that down.

If you continue seeing him :
- what could it cost you (in terms of SUFFERING : days, weeks, months) ;
- how would it benefit you.
Really, write it down. What is it that you're getting out of this relationship, and is it worth the risks ?

Than, compare : is the feeling you get out of this seemingly dangerous person worth the potential cost ?

Hopefully I'm not speaking out of turn here, don't hesitate to let me know if I am.

I managed to dodge many a bullet in my life (and many, I didn't, and got badly badly hurt). Each and every time I successfully dodged the bullet, it was : by ending the relationship completely, blocking the individual, going no contact, and never looking back.

Usually, that meant : NO KISSING, no hand-holding, no sex, no texting, no, nothing. SILENCE AND OUT.

You can't dodge a bullet while still hanging around, I don't think.

Please take excellent care of yourself, Sappho. Your highly sophisticated, fun, delightful vibe is very much appreciated on this forum, I wouldn't want to see it wasted on a wolf in sheep's clothing. You're worth so much more than that. I don't think you realize it, I wish you could see yourself as we see you.

[grumpydonut]

If this is the same bloke we were chatting about a few days ago...

Red flag red flag red flag red flag

[Sappho11]

Thank you for all your advice   I'll definitely keep it in mind.

I don't deny the red flags. They're ever present. But I'm also hypervigilant at the moment, and my walls are up. I've closed myself off from people for a long time, and this hasn't always been to my benefit. Sure, it was safe, but it was also isolating and lonely.

With my ex-boyfriend, I threw all caution to the wind and got burnt immediately. But this isn't what's happening here.

I'm seeing this as an exercise in boundary-setting, which I feel I'm getting better at. The Pianist's proficiency in the art of seduction is unsettling, but that's a game I know well, and one I know I can play – and I've acquired enough information now to beat him in the next round.  

At the moment I don't see the problem, to be honest. He treats me well and his presence is enjoyable. I'm not emotionally involved, and my gut feeling is positive. He makes an effort, and knows how to compromise (there were a couple of instances where I made a request and he happily obliged without complaint, even though it was to his disadvantage). I feel good when I see him and good when I don't. Besides, I've got other options romantically as well as socially.

Most importantly, I'm not ready to cut him off because I actually like him as a human being. I'd be quite happy to have him around as a platonic friend, because there's a certain intellectual connection which I've found to be rather rare. It's easy to discuss things with him – even things we completely disagree on – because there's no need to justify or explain. We share a similar no-nonsense, let's-hash-it-out style of communication.

All that said, I'm on the lookout for any manifestations of a disordered personality. So far, his actions are consistent with his words, and he's been forthright about his mental state from the start. Yes, he's quite wrapped up in himself, but I like him enough to see whether this is a temporary or a permanent state. If it's the latter (we'll see in 1-2 months' time), you can bet I'm out. Same with any signs, and I mean any, of devaluation, however subtle. There's no way in hell I'd ever explain those away again. – He likes being in charge, no doubt, but that might simply be a facet of his personality (and nationality – unlike me, he's German), not a disorder. I don't have enough information yet to judge whether it's pathological, but I'll keep it in mind.

In any case, I'm seeing other people, and I've got a couple of dates set up next week. So, there's nothing at risk here from where I stand.

[Newdawnnewday]

OK Sappho, you're taking it slow, which is a good thing. 

And it's a good idea indeed to do enough data gathering over the next few weeks to confirm / invalidate any suspicion that he might be personality disordered.

Not getting too involved (perhaps also, limiting the amount of time spent with him ? literally ? you could have a boundary, say, for instance "I'll see him once a week only for the next couple of months", or whatever suits you, to give yourself ample time in between encounters to reflect on the relationship and not get overwhelmed by HIS desires and projections), seeing other people, and practising having excellent boundaries is also the way to go.

And remember : whatever you decide to do next, we have your back !

[once removed]

dating again is a nerve wracking thing.

i think a lot of us feel a certain pressure to do better than last time. it was a humbling experience.

it is, in part, several different things: an opportunity to show ourselves that we can bond with others. that we can attract and be attracted to others. that we can move on. that weve learned from our experience.

believe me when i tell you, it need not be about spotting red flags or a personality disorder. personality disordered people are 2-5% of the population. on the other hand, mental illness affects about 30% of the population. youre going to face some degree of what you faced in your ex, with multiple other suitors. the vast majority of them will not have personality disorders, but may not be the right fit. a member here once told me that dating is a lot like grocery shopping. you dont become a "good fruit" picker by learning to spot "bad fruit".

i dont get a strong sense in this thread for what you are looking for in a new partner.

what are you looking for in a new partner? what, so far, would you do differently, given the chance?