Partner is unconventional BPD and we have a child

[NotAHero]

Hello all,

 I’m dealing with the recycling phase with my BPD partner. We have a child in common and I’m worried. She has been leaving - as in moving out- and living with “friends” or whoever but also coming back and spending some nights here. She says she is done and doesn’t want to be with me. She is in almost full devaluation phase. I tried my best nothing works so I’m on good terms with ending the relationship. She keeps coming back to my house and wants to hug or watch tv.

 I’m worried because I want to make sure I don’t lose custody of my child. She agreed to shared custody but everytime I ask her to come see a lawyer with me to sign she rages and asks why I’m not fighting for her? Or why are you rushing this you want to see other women?  

 I need opinions on how to handle this. Do I try to push her to sign? Do I play that we are not done until she signs ? I’m worried she will change her mind and cause a legal battle.

 Her financials will not work without me so I’m not sure what her plan is. She also has 2 other children from another partner. It’s a mess. I did not do anything to cause this. She has no interest to seek help and blames me for everything.

[kells76]

Welcome, NotAHero, glad you found this group. It makes sense that you can reflect back and say, "I did everything my integrity demanded to work on our relationship, and now I am OK with letting go and moving on".

I want to make sure I don’t lose custody of my child.

You deserve kudos for thinking of your child first in all of this. How old is your kiddo, if you don't mind answering? How has s/he been doing with Mom in and out?

She agreed to shared custody

I'm guessing this was verbally, not in a text or email?

I need opinions on how to handle this. Do I try to push her to sign? Do I play that we are not done until she signs ? I’m worried she will change her mind and cause a legal battle.

Good question. I hear you prioritizing getting your legal ducks in a row ASAP, and you have understanding that her perceptions and wants aren't stable over time, so you don't want to wait and have her dig her heels in and be like "no way am I agreeing to anything that benefits you". This is a really important mindset to have -- you're in touch with the reality about the instability of BPD, so you know that you HAVE to get parenting agreements on paper. Wise.

Have you been documenting the times where she moves out and lives with "friends"? Documenting the times you take care of your kid, what you do (bedtime, bathtime, homework, meals, trips to park, etc)?

One way to approach "do I push her or play along" is -- as long as you're still deciding, document, document, document. There's a way in which she is saying so much more with her actions than her words, about her capacity for parenting. She'd rather live with friends than parent -- so get that recorded (PRIVATE Google doc, for example).

Also consider that so many times with pwBPD, we feel like we have to work together with them, and then their stonewalling and footdragging stops us from doing what needs to get done. We think we have to "ask and wait", when in fact we often need to "decide and inform" in order to get ANYTHING done. Believe me, been there done that (my husband's kids' mom has BPD traits).

At some point you may need to "decide and inform" her that on X day at Y time, there is an appointment with the L to do the paperwork, and you'll be going. If she wants to be a part of it, she is welcome to attend. But -- you go whether she does or not. At some point you just have to move forward and leave the door open for her to participate or not... but your moving forward doesn't depend on her agreement.

In that scenario, would you be concerned that she'd lash out and "punish" you by pushing for her to have full custody or something?

That's where "not pushing" for a bit beforehand, to get the documentation of her low parenting involvement, could be to your advantage. Let her keep leaving to be with friends, don't try to convince her to parent, and get the data of who is doing the heavy lifting of parenting. Sure, when the time comes when you "decide and inform" about moving forward to get an official legal custody/parenting plan, she may explode, allege/claim all kinds of things, demand to have child 100% of the time, etc. But the documentation will back you up. I think there's a way in which, if "not pushing her" means she'll keep declining to parent, then if you can be patient for a bit, she'll really do the work of undermining her own case.

...

Also, this just struck me, have you actually consulted with a lawyer yet, or has it just been in the plan but you haven't gone? Initial consultations are often free or low-charge, and you can get 30-60 minutes of expert analysis of your situation. You can do as many initial consultations as you have the time/$/energy for, and doing a few can give you an "average" view of what you could expect in your area. Your case could be much stronger than you think already, or a L could recommend "keep documenting your parenting and her absence, and after 6 months of her choosing not to parent, your case will be airtight". Or something, where you know how long you "don't push her" for in order to get what your child needs.

Oh, and of course you can do that alone. Don't invite her to YOUR free consultations. She is an adult who could do the same thing on her own, if she wanted.


...

I really feel for you; the breaking apart of any relationship is a tragedy, especially when there's mental illness involved. I can't imagine this is what you wanted for you guys or your child. Again, you really deserve a round of applause for thinking of what your kiddo needs in all of this -- which is exactly what you're trying to do, get a custody agreement on legal paper. Right moves, right mindset.

...

Hope this food for thought helps;

kells76

[NotAHero]

Kells76

 Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply.

 My child is 3 years old. She has 2 children of her own that she is taking with her whenever she leaves. She is taking my child with her on and off so I’m not parenting him alone. I am the one with a stable job where I have to work long hours. He sees both of us on short cycles so he is with me for couple days and with her the next two and such.  I do have extensive documentation of my time with my child but he still spends time with her at “friends” which I’m really worried about. He seems to be doing fine and I always make sure he has fun when we are together.  She does advise me of his whereabouts and I do get him as much as I can. I know if I kept him with me only she will invoke a custody battle. She did agree to 50/50 in text but nothing is legally binding until she signs.

 I do have a lot of documentation for her outbursts but I know the worst outcome is a legal battle where she will put my baby in the middle. I did speak to a few lawyers willing to draft the parenting plan but whenever I bring it up she rages or comes back. Walking the fine line everyday is why I came here to reflect.  I know I did everything I could and my conscious is clear. That being said, I cannot endure the thought of failing to protect my child and without a minimum of 50/50 custody I won’t have the tools or ability to do so.

[kells76]

Aw, 3 year old son, I bet he's cute!

OK, so, she doesn't leave S3 at your house when she goes and stays with friends. Got it.

Do you have to work outside the house? On the days when you have him, do you have to work (i.e. does someone do childcare for you), or have you set it up where S3 is with Mom when you work and with you when you don't? How long has that been the schedule?

I am thinking that she is trying to foot-drag and obstruct passively to get something she wants (probably control), but in a weird way, if this has been the schedule for a bit, and keeps on being the schedule, then she is actually building status quo as she delays. The longer something is status quo, even if it's not "official", the better, legally speaking.

So, if the schedule that has been happening is basically what you want (50/50 parenting time)... then it's to your advantage, not hers, that she's delaying.

I get your point, though, that if something happens and she goes wacky and wants him all the time, you want to be 5 steps ahead and have legal protection for your time and decision making.

Am I reading correctly that you guys were never married and so are not divorcing? Is there any legal dissolution of your relationship that has happened or needs to? Or is it just formalizing the PP/custody? Ugh, I say "just", and I know it's not "just" 

OK, last questions -- do you see a therapist/counselor at all, and has your son ever done any kind of play therapy?

I know, tons of questions. Answer whatever you're comfortable with; it kind of helps us get a "feel" for your situation and what "flavor" of BPD your son's mom is.

Hang in there;

kells76

[ForeverDad]

About that 50/50 stance...  That's good but — knowing the obstructions you would most likely continue to face in future years — 50/50 falls short a bit.  Ponder on what strategies could get you 50% plus a little more somewhere else.  Let me share my story.

My then-spouse had temp custody and majority time (my county's default preference for mothers) during our separation and two year divorce.  Everyone knew the Custody Evaluator had recommended Shared Parenting (50-50) but she was refusing to settle.  Here's what I previously posted...

You may feel getting an agreement for 50/50 is great - and it is - but when an entitled ex is involved you can keep going back to the court or mediator over all sorts of issues.  What if she decides to change pediatricians, dentists, schools, religious instruction, etc and you don't agree?  An equal 50/50 doesn't resolve such scenarios.  That is why courts prefer one parent has Decision Making or Tie Breaker or similar status.  The problem?  Mothers are typically defaulted to being in charge of the kids' custodial matters.

In my case I set one condition before making a recommended 50/50 settlement on Trial Day at the end of a two-year divorce process during which she was the two-year "temporary" custodial parent.  I was concerned she'd move around - and she did - and I'd have to uproot to stay close to my son.  My sole condition?  That I was the parent handling school matters.  Both lawyers insisted it didn't mean anything but it turned out I was right.  She caused more scenes at her own chosen school that within two months her school board gave me one day to register my kindergartner in my own nearby school district.  If I didn't have school authority then her school would have been stuck with her too.  Believe me, they were oh so glad to dump her.

Right now your child isn't in school yet but preschool or kindergarten will be looming soon.  In addition to 50/50 on the parenting time schedule, can you ensure you get some of the "custody issues" too?  Custody topics include school, medical, mental health*, religious training, etc.  Which of those are ones you have the most need to avoid future problems?  (Be aware that you do NOT share your strategies with her, limit "sharing" to parenting information and related matters.)  I focused on school authority and it worked over the next years for me to get more and more.

* Most obstructive disordered parents are extremely resistant to allowing the child to get counseling or play therapy, they fear their poor behaviors will be exposed.

[NotAHero]

Kells76

 I do work outside the house and so does she. She has only been working for 2 weeks though. During her work he is with her friend whom I pay. When I’m off work I take him. She stays with her friends with him or leaves him with me. It’s mixed. I have been keeping up to have him spend 50% of the nights with me. Sometimes she agrees sometimes she pushes back and rages.

 Today for example when I asked for him and was upfront that we should already been doing the 50/50 she sent me angry messages all day. How I ruined her life and how I get to keep all my life the same while she has to struggle and work. How I get to keep my house and “get a new woman”. Along with more devaluation and blaming. At the end of her barrage she goes “don’t message me again “. Going to wait until the evening then go get him anyway.

[NotAHero]

ForeverDad

Thank you for your engagement and advice.

 For the decision making I’m an easy going person. As long as he has a doctor, goes to school and is in good health I don’t mind the details. When it comes to religion  we are both atheists - or at least she says she is.

  I do plan to have a condition regarding daycare though. I want to pay for all daycare expenses for me and her but in return I want to make sole decision on who watches him.  I will most likely end up putting him in professional daycare with extra programs. The reason daycare matters is that I don’t want him being watched by people she trusts because she places her trust in the wrong people, for obvious reasons.

[kells76]

Going to wait until the evening then go get him anyway.

It sounds like you're getting the feel for how coparenting goes with a pwBPD. My husband's kids' mom says all kinds of stuff too. We had planned an international trip with the kids (i.e., bought plane tickets in advance, he had to work together with her like 10 months in advance to get passports, etc), and it's not like any of it was surprising to her or unexpected, and she could've not cooperated on passports if she didn't want the kids to have them... but still, even weeks/days before the trip, the kids were reporting "Mom says she doesn't like the idea/doesn't want us to go/etc".

You just have to ignore the ignorable stuff and act as though she is being cooperative.

pwBPD can "talk a good game" and because we're normal people, we believe what other people say. Unfortunately it doesn't work with pwBPD and especially not when trying to coparent with an uncooperative pwBPD. You have to really filter what they're saying and "pretend" like no matter what they're saying, the plan is still happening. (the kids did end up going on the trip, and we didn't engage with Mom's blame and negativity)

So, thumbs up on not engaging with her blaming/complaining/negative/demeaning texts, and "behaving as if" she is cooperating. This is the right mindset.

...

Lots more I'd love to chat about but I'm still at work 

[NotAHero]

Kells76

 I have 15 more years of this so I have to keep my emotions in check.

 I see from your story something I anticipated. Planning vacations or anything like that  will be tricky. I hope she will turn out to be a better mom than the one you mentioned though. She  tries her best within the limitations of the disorder.

Right now I’m laser focused on the legal side, will worry about future conflicts as they come

[ForeverDad]

Your local county or jurisdiction probably has guidelines for holidays and vacations, probably exchange and other common issues too.

Here is the typical order of priority in a parenting schedule:
  (1) Holidays
  (2) Vacations
  (3) Parenting schedule

A time tested and practical holiday schedule design is to alternate holidays between parents one year and then in alternate years reverse those days. This way at least once every two years you will get all holidays.  You can have exceptions and variations listed in the parenting order.

A mistake I made was to not review the extensive list of holidays and strike out the ones we never observed.  One time when I sent a vacation notice she sabotaged me by claiming one of those we had never celebrated before.  Lesson learned henceforth.

Generally only the children's birthdays are a part of the holiday schedule, not the parents or grandparents' birthdays.  Many here have accepted they can have early or late events on their own parenting time, so sometimes the kids will get double, not all that bad of a deal for them.

As you can see above, you can't schedule a vacation on the other parent's holiday, unless both parents agree to different terms.  Your county probably sets a format for vacations.  My county grants up to 3 weeks per calendar year and maximum vacation length is 2 weeks.

Another reminder about vacations... you send a vacation notice, not a request.  As long as you comply with the terms of advance notice*, parenting arrangements, etc, then your ex has no basis to oppose.

* Notice rules may vary from one local jurisdiction to another.  Many set seasonal due dates for vacation notices, but they're always at least 30 days in advance.  And it's first come, first served.

[Turkish]

Have a lawyer draw up a custody stipulation that includes child support though she will likely balk at volunteering income verification (what do you think?). Or maybe just the custody.

My ex initially balked at a legal order, but I think she did not want to go to court. We didn't have to. She was also served though mail, saving the humiliation of a process server.

It took me a few months to convince her. I didn't hire the first lawyer as my ex didn't agree at the time. I'm glad as that lawyer validated my armchair BPD diagnosis and even told me to offer more child support than was legally required just to mollify my ex. 

I used the tools here like:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict (see the READ MORE link at the end to a discussion of SET)

And: 2.03 | B.I.F.F. Technique for Communications (this works verbally as well)

There was no way I'd agree to raising then D1 and S4 without an order or a clear child support order.  It's bad enough that she's stiffed me for $3k in shared Healthcare expenses but it's not worth going to court over.

I didn't do what Foreverdad suggested but it's a good idea. My ex moved 4 times within 4 years between 3 different school districts. I have the home (we weren't married). She made noises about transferring the kids but I enrolled my son anyway. Better to ask did forgiveness than permission. I never asked for forgiveness. It took two years for her to stop desiring a transfer by the time she finally trusted the school.

So we have joint physical and legal custody with a clear schedule and CS.

I'm glad that I didn't agree to not file. Her younger sister broke up with her baby's daddy and took their child from Texas to California. With no order, there was nothing to stop her from doing that.

I had many conversations with my ex (she lived with us for months until she could move out and it was an emotional wasteland for me because she had her boy toy whom she later married... then divorced) where I reinforced that an order protected both us and the kids and it was fair. And we didn't need to show up in court, just agree, sign and file. I had to assuage her anxiety using the tools.

There's been some drama, but the kids are not D9 and S11. We recently switched to a week to week schedule, a verbal agreement which is working thus far.

[NotAHero]

Turkish

 Thank you for your response. Ideally I want to work it the same way you did. Only difference is my child is too young S3 so daycare is a major issue. I’ll take a look at the resources you suggested. Been reading books and research about BPD as well.

[kells76]

NotAHero, often pwBPD (and, I guess, all of us, to some extent) have a "currency" or a "lever" that, once you know it and tap it, can make getting agreements easier (or at least not as hard). For example, the "currency" of my husband's kids' mom is "being the expert" or "being the one with all the answers". Basically she always has to be the one on top, the one who is right, the one who knows the most. If any kind of decision has to be made where there is even a hint that DH or I are the ones who know more, that totally implodes the process, because she makes it about topping us, not about just making a decision for the kids. She also will stonewall/foot-drag as a way to be the one in power over a process. Totally awesome when there is a deadline for making a kid-related decision     

I have learned to rephrase any decision-making needs with her in two ways. One, I always include a deadline, not in a "threat" way, but in an "announcing what I will be doing" kind of way. Two, I decide in advance, privately to myself, what I'll do if she says Yes and what I'll do if she says No.

Here is an example of how I might have interacted with her in the past, before I knew these tools:

"Hi Kids' Mom;

Can I pick up SD13 [stepdaughter age 13] on Monday to take her to Event? I think she'll really want to go! Let me know ASAP;

kells76"

OK, what do we notice about this:

1. I'm asking permission for something
2. I'm positioning myself as the expert on what SD13 wants
3. There are no boundaries on timeframe for a reply, but my urgency is sensed

I am setting myself up for disaster and dysfunction.

In the past, Kids' Mom would probably have replied:

"Hi kells76;

I had a great conversation with SD13 and she confided to me that she doesn't really want to go, but I told her if she really wanted to she could, so it really depends on if you want to swing by on Monday and see how she feels, I am totally ok with either way,

Kids' Mom"

Notice what's going on here:

1. No permission is given, but Mom also hasn't said No... she is putting me in a double bind where SD13 misses out if I don't show up, but I'll be "insensitive" and "not the expert" if I do show up
2. Mom is one-upping me as the expert on how SD13 feels -- she is the best and only mom, I know nothing
3. No decision has actually been made, and Mom is dysfunctionally abdicating her parenting responsibility onto SD13: "Hey, I'm totally OK with anything [it's not my fault], it's SD13 who doesn't want to go [and I won't make her]"

Here's what I write, currently:

"Hi Kids' Mom;

Does it work for your schedule if I pick up SD13 (for Event) at 3pm on Monday? Let me know by this Saturday evening; if I don't hear back from you by then, I'll assume we're good to go!

Best;

kells76"

Notice what's different here:

1. I'm not asking permission -- it's not about what can kells76 do or not, it's about Mom's schedule (this also places Mom in a parenting role, so she can't abdicate and be like "I'm fine with it, but it depends on what the kids want"
2. There are NO doors open for who is the expert about what the kids feel. This removes the opportunity for Mom to turn communications into a referendum on who is the better parent/stepparent and keeps it focused on pure kid logistics
3. While not threatening anything, I build in a way for Mom's non-response or foot-dragging to be a response. She is welcome to never respond to me and I will take that as a Yes. She would actually have to engage with the communication for it to be a No.

...

So , I don't know how I got onto that topic... OK, reviewed my own post.

Yes -- what is your son's mom's "currency"? It sounds like she likes to be the "victim" (she complains about working so much and so hard)? And $$$ are also an issue for her?

And if I'm tracking all your posts correctly, your core issue is:

How do you get her to sign the legal documents protecting your time with your son, without that setting off an explosion that could make things a lot worse for you and your son?

Basically, you don't want to keep going without legal protection, because of the risk of her acting dysfunctionally re: parenting, but the very act of trying to get her to sign off on legal stuff could precipitate parenting dysfunction.

As Turkish mentioned, if $$$ are her currency, then find a way to "sweeten the deal" for her so that she is motivated to sign the paperwork -- she perceives she's getting something out of it. She's not wrong in seeing that if she signs the custody agreement as-is, she is losing something (her ability to act unchecked and without boundaries). So she doesn't want to agree to ANYTHING that puts boundaries around her actions. How can we make signing the papers more palatable, more incentivized? Maybe that's the question?

If "playing the victim" is her currency... how to use that knowledge to facilitate her signing papers? Would it be something like "you work so hard, you deserve to have your scheduled time with S3 protected"? (IDK just trying to come up with an approach that would resonate with her). You know her the best; you've tried "convincing" her to sign, but every time the move is from "informal verbal/text agreement" to something formal and boundaried, she won't go there... Maybe something like "this agreement means you can't be taken advantage of, it makes me pay you $X" (again, really just pulling stuff off the top of my head).

...

my child is too young S3 so daycare is a major issue.

Would she feel like she was "winning" something if you "had to" pay 100% of daycare costs? Could that be a lever? What if you pitched "hey Son's Mom, let's split daycare costs 50/50" -- would she immediately dig in and say No way? Because if what you really want is to pay 100% of daycare (which is a wise move), would she feel like she "got one over on you" if you sighed and were like... "OK, I see your point; you already work so hard, you deserve to keep your money to take care of S3. OK, I admit you're right and I should pay 100% of daycare, let's get that in the custody agreement and sign it"

A lot of times, when dealing with pwBPD, it's in the presentation, not the content.

Hope you're doing well;

kells76

[NotAHero]

Kells76

 Lots of good info there thank you.

 I don’t know her currency it’s all over the place. Today she was mad because I offered a new lawyer. She said it’s news to her we are not partners. Then was saying her dad is telling her not to sign and lawyer up. I said so should I talk to him then? She was mad how dare I say she is not capable. So now I have to sit there for a while and see what comes up next.

[ForeverDad]

In many jurisdictions, child support has a formula and many courts allow or require it to be revisited as often as every year or two.  Downside is that you make a high $$$ offer and it gets "written in stone" even if you get more parenting later on.  Upside is that the amount may or may not get reviewed often in an inflationary world and in time her benefit is effectively reduced.

My older sibling was the first in my family to experience divorce 40 years ago, he paid about $100 per month per child.  I separated 15 years ago and I paid $685 per month with one child for alternate weekends.  A few years later court recalculated it to $740 when we had equal time and I had just gained legal custody.  I had more time post-divorce yet paid more.  Go figure.  Inflation bites.

This comment may not apply much in your case... My ex refused to report her income to the court, yet that was part of the child support calculation.  The lawyers agreed we would accept imputed income based on minimum wage laws in the area.  Or it could be some accepted amount for her equivalent job/career pay scale.

Unless your spouse has a history of mental health hospitalizations or similar, you will discover that most professionals will ignore the elephant in the room, your spouse's mental health.  If you press the issue of some diagnosis such as BPD, you'll get pushback that despite your years with her you're not qualified to diagnose (if it quacks it's a duck) and therefore you're not to be a kid "Playing Doctor".

So what to do, from a legal standpoint?  Follow the court's example.  Usually it is silent on the mental health angle and does not try to change either parent.  Instead, it addresses the documented behaviors, in a passive, minimal court-speak way.  You would do well to follow that example — document the poor behaviors now so you have some specific incidents and details (vague assertions will be viewed as hearsay and ignored) to support your testimony, should it come to that.

Be aware that you bending over backward to appease the ex or show the professionals how overly nice you are to the ex may fall on deaf ears.  The court won't care, and it may even turn out to be self-sabotaging (if you give in or give up too much).  We here are Nice Guys and Nice Gals but we still struggled getting our niceness recognized, so instead we had to focus on what worked, just being good parents.  And of course not sniping or retaliating against our ex.  An overall observation...

The person behaving poorly seldom faces consequences and the person behaving well seldom gets credit.

In my case I found my court preferred minimal stepped improvements rather than big fixes.  Unfortunately my court defaulted to mother from the first temp order (while she was charged with Threat of DV).  So it took several years in and out of court to go from alternate weekends to equal time to majority time during the school year.

That brings me to what really helps... getting a decent initial temp order in court.  If you can hammer out some of the wrinkles beforehand in an agreement, great.  Appearing in court having already lived with equal time in the prior months helps a lot.  Although many courts may still have an unwritten preference for mothers, the benefit is that they will be inclined not to fiddle too much with what seems to be working.  But it does make a difference long term if you can get the best (or "least bad") terms in the initial temp order.

[kells76]

I don’t know her currency it’s all over the place. Today she was mad because I offered a new lawyer. She said it’s news to her we are not partners. Then was saying her dad is telling her not to sign and lawyer up. I said so should I talk to him then? She was mad how dare I say she is not capable. So now I have to sit there for a while and see what comes up next.

Has she ever withheld S3 when it's your scheduled time, or threatened to do so? Is that what you're concerned about, if you move ahead legally without her agreeing?

[NotAHero]

 If I move legally without her agreeing I will have to spend my child college fund to get my rights. It’s a last resort not a preferred option.

[kells76]

It’s a last resort not a preferred option.

Very much understood. It's expensive and can be brutal.

I wonder then if your question is -- what's the "tipping point" or "decision point", where you can no longer keep going under the current "it's 50/50 in practice and status quo, she just won't seal the deal and sign legal papers" arrangement?

If I'm tracking with you, right now she isn't withholding S3, and is nominally agreeing to 50/50 parenting time -- but she won't commit to it in a legally binding way. And so far, it's not like it's completely not working.

But there's this subtle threat -- don't you dare, NotAHero, don't you dare bring this into the legal system, because if you do, I will destroy you financially and I put our child in the middle. She doesn't have to say it, but it still gets communicated.

Sounds like covert aggression to me. Have you ever read the book "In Sheep's Clothing" (by George Simon)?

...

Does your state enumerate unmarried parents' rights? Have you reviewed them?

I'm wondering if you can shore up and protect your current rights, or at least learn about what they are and aren't (and what hers are and aren't) while you're in this grey zone.

[NotAHero]

Kells76

 You are on point. It’s like she wants to break all boundaries, come and go as she pleases, continue to have me as a resource but not commit to anything. The legal portion is scary to her because that’s abandonment and she has nothing left to hold onto me. At the same time she does not really do anything to show that she wants the relationship. I am at the point where I do not care how she feels toward me I just want my child rights.
Being around her is unbearable she is almost always in devaluation mode then switches in a minute like nothing happens and wants a long hug. I don’t need that in my life.

 I did not read the book mentioned. 

[NotAHero]

Foreverdad

  I have 2 other kids from previous marriage that I pay hefty support and expenses for. When it comes to money issues as long as I’m getting 50/50 I win legally. By winning I mean I will pay for my children very well without having to pay much for her own and the new “friends”. That’s why today I tried asking her how much is she after for 50/50 and she raged and was like how dare I paint her as a money hungry *****.

 

[livednlearned]

If this were to go to court, how do you think she would respond? It sounds like there could be a precedent given other kids are in the mix.

Do you know much about what her prior experiences were like?

[Turkish]

That's why it's better to go by your state's formula. It's objective. Income A vs. Income B--->guideline support. It isn't want, it is what it is.

What I ended up with as a cash payment was what she asked for in the beginning without an order. The extra above that (by guideline) was imputed to me as I pay for medical and dental which factored into the calculation. She suggested $200 off per month if I continued to contribute that to their college plans, so "below guideline," but the why was written into the order. I told her that it made no difference to me, as it was $200/ month I'd be paying regardless.

It was no big deal due me to continue to pay for medical (which has doubled since then) and dental as I was already doing. I could have gotten off cheaper initially without the order, but I had 13 years to go where she could have continued to ask for more, regardless of the $3k she's stiffed me for. The objective order brings balance and certainty and leaves emotions out of the equation. The state or court is the target or "bad guy" if anything.

If suggest something like, "this is guideline according to the state <send a link>. According to xyz custody schedule. We can get it written up and filed without showing up in person to court." (At least we could in California, it was reviewed and signed by a judge)

She also sent me an email that said that she didn't want me to throw in her face that I was supporting her (translation: that she needed me or that she couldn't provide for the kids on her own). My lawyer said it was a remarkable demonstration of humility and hubris. I didn't respond to that email.

[NotAHero]

 Since I started pushing for legal she stuck to the 50/50 letting me have my child.  I’m still talking to lawyers to make sure that if I go on like this for a while it will be good to go should we go to court. My worry in that scenario would be if she plays dirty later. In the meantime I suggested to her we listen to the audiobook “the high conflict couple”. She said she won’t alone I said fine. If anything I figured it might help with coparenting later.

 I’m not sure if I’m asking questions or outlining my thoughts process to get more input. So far all of you have been helpful during this challenging time so thank you . Glad I came here

[kells76]

I’m still talking to lawyers to make sure that if I go on like this for a while it will be good to go should we go to court.

That seems like your strongest play at this point.

I wonder if it would be helpful to explicitly articulate your own "line in the sand" -- something like:

If she does X, Y, and/or Z, then I will move forward for legal protection for me and my son, whether or not she agrees/cooperates.

Then really list out X, Y, and Z.

This puts you in the driver's seat of protecting your relationship with your son, instead of her "having the steering wheel".

Right now, she drives the car on this one, whether it's been made explicit or not. I think she senses having power over whether or not you get papers signed.

When dealing with pwBPD, things go better when we "drive our own car" instead of reacting to their steering wheel antics.

So, getting feedback from lawyers about how long you can wait and let the 50/50 status quo develop -- great move. Then you have really specific info to inform your personal decision points, your boundaries, about what you'll do if she does X, Y, and/or Z.

Otherwise, it's this unending cycle of -- she verbally says she's OK with 50/50, you say Great let's get that on paper, she balks/heel drags/stonewalls/makes implicit threats, you back off, she gets happy/recycles again, she feels great, she verbally says she's OK with 50/50, ... repeat repeat repeat

...

So -- NAH, what are the X, Y, Z that she might say or do that would inform you taking next steps?

Would it be something like:

-If she makes any written/documentable threat to withhold S3 or leave with him, then I will move forward with getting a lawyer, whether she agrees or not

-If she leaves S3 with her friend when she is not there, then I will...

-If she demeans me to S3, uses derogatory languages towards or about me in front of him, then I will...

-If she says I am/was abusive towards her and/or S3, then I will...

...

What are the "worst case scenario" outcomes that you envision if/when you choose to move forward without her agreement?

How can the X, Y, Z things that you select as your "action points" help head off the "worst case scenarios"?

What I'm thinking is --

Worst case scenario: she suddenly moves out of state with S3

She does this as a reaction to you getting legal stuff done without her

The reason you got legal stuff done without her was she emailed and threatened to take S3 out of state and you'd never see him again

You have documented proof of her withholding S3

You can instantly "pull the trigger" on a strong legal case to bring S3 back

...

I think that's the biggest thing I'm thinking about with your thread... how can you get more definition, more specifics, with your situation, so that you're not stuck in limbo with a disordered person driving the legal dynamics. What really specific go/no go points can you define for yourself, so that your legal protection isn't contingent on her agreeableness.

You're already doing great consulting with L's to see "OK, if we just informally keep 50/50, how long do we need to do that before it's the status quo? 3 months? 6 months? 1 year?" That gives you a defined timetable for decision making, like -- if I can just hold out another 7 weeks, then I have a way stronger legal case.

...

I'll wrap up for now -- plenty of other good questions/comments in this thread already!

[NotAHero]

Kells76

  She can’t move out of state she has 2 kids with her ex and she cannot legally move far without a battle with him. My only worry is false accusations but I have some good video evidence  caught on security cameras she is aware of that document her behavior. That is not full protection for me as she can always make things up but it’s a reason why I have been patient about signing.

 This week end she acted like nothing was happening and that we are together. Stopped by and acted all lovey. Then told me that she was hanging out with this guy at her “friends” house. She said she is telling me that because she considers us still together and she loves me. I I said thank you for telling me but I ask that you tell me before or during something like that not after.

 Reason I asked for that more than anything is that I was hoping to establish that she would tell me before doing something like getting drunk with my son around. She did that with neighbors we didn’t really know with my son there last month. I sensed she was drunk rushed to take my son and left her there. She came out with the neighbors looking at me like the bad guy because who knows what she told them. I took my baby and left her there completely drunk she walked home stumbling.

  Anyway, as soon as I asked her to tell me before or during she started raging. I took off and she screamed that she considers this abandonment. She took my child and her kids and took off back to her friend house along with the half prepped dinner I had sitting at the kitchen counter. I tried to use non conflict techniques in messages after but she just shut it down and said I am disgusting for talking to her like a mental patient. I have been ignoring most of her texts since. Not sure if I should start a new thread on the “in a relationship “ while I’m still in this phase.

[NotAHero]

Update:

 She is trying to fully move back in now. I said I’m not opposed to that as long as we sign a parenting plan and child support. Any thoughts or similar experiences would be appreciated.

[kells76]

For you, is this strategy:

She is trying to fully move back in now. I said I’m not opposed to that as long as we sign a parenting plan and child support.

(a), because you are OK with her moving back in (in and of itself) and perhaps want to work on your relationship, or

(b), because you see that "moving back in" is "currency" for her, and you are leveraging that to get legal stuff done, or

(c), other thing I'm not seeing, or a combination of things?

Want to make sure I'm super clear on what you personally want.

[NotAHero]

Kells76

 I genuinely have no problem with her moving back in as long as the legal stuff is done. I am not trying to trick her.

 That being said, if the legal stuff is done the way I see it going is one of the 2:

 1- She immediately abides by boundaries knowing that she can no longer use my son against me. Possibly seek some serious help. If that is the case I’m willing to forgive and work things out.

2- She continues the devaluation and blame at which point I’ll sever bonds- aside from coparenting of course - and move on.  Overall I have been doing some self care recently with complete disregard to her tantrums, devaluation and extinction bursts. I don’t think she changed it’s just the nature of the disorder.

 In short I’m genuine about trying  but doubt it will end up with us together.

[ForeverDad]

About #2... does she move back before or after complying with the legal stuff?  Why does it matter?  Promises mean little, it's the actions that count.  She could promise to work it out, move back and then insist on all sorts of delays and conditions.  Get the legal stuff in writing and according to what a local lawyer agrees is as binding as possible.

Is the residence a rental or do you own it?  Just saying, if you do end up divorcing and it's your home, there's risk the judge could award her possession with the child, even if only temporarily.

The only reason my now-ex didn't get possession of our home was that at the beginning I had protection (TPO) in a DV case and I got possession so she had to move out.  Otherwise I surely would have been the one on the outside looking in until our custody was finalized two years later.

[NotAHero]

ForeverDad

 We are not legally married and we are not in a common law state. I owned the house for 8 years before we even met.

 I do not trust anything she says. Only reason I’m letting her move in and out as she pleases is to get the legal stuff done. Once that is done will see what happens.

[Turkish]

Don't do it. She's seeing someone else, yes? It took September through the beginning of February to get my ex to leave... while she was seeing her beau. It was an emotional hell for me. She phoned it in as a mother. She slept on the couch. Meals were largely separate (because I couldn't stand her face). She 9nce stayed out until 5AM while I was home with our kids. A teenage mom, basically. I didn't charge her rent or utilities so she could save up. We turned in the $40k SUV (2013 dollars) I had bought her at a loss to me of about $8k.

She wants something. Her past behaviors have demonstrated that you're not safe (she's not a safe person to be around). For pwBPD, "lying feels like survival." See this post from a recent thread on Detaching. I read that book.

It also isn't her choice whether or not to sign a parenting plan. She could be served. I'd keep doing to soft approach though for now. I convinced my ex, the talks and negotiations starting when she lived with me, and ultimately served her by mail, no public shaming from a process server.

My ex also asked to come back (by text!) about four years after her marriage to the guy she left me for imploded. None of that was for me, but her.

Edit: my ex and I weren't married and I bought the house under my name.

[Couper]

Another reason to be careful with this "moving in" stuff (and maybe you already know this) -- is that in some states if she is there some certain amount of time and meets other criteria, like she's receiving her mail there, kicking her out later can become a legal issue in spite of the fact that you owned the house prior to her arrival on the scene.  Once they consider it her "residence", removing her can take on a whole new level of difficulty.

A friend just went through this.  He owned his house for over 20 years.  After he was widowed, he let a woman move in with him that didn't want to go when it was time for her to leave.  The State Police were called.  At first they were siding with her given the length of time issue (which was months -- not years) but then they found that she was still receiving her mail across the line in a neighboring state and that was enough to make them side with my friend and remove her. 

 

[NotAHero]

Turkish

 I honestly don’t know if she found a new host of just trying to. As of now she lives with her non exclusive couple friends that she had sexual relationship with in the past. Of course she is pretending to be “loyal still” and with her double think she appears to be truly believing that. .  My guess is that she is with them temporarily until she finds a new host. I’m afraid of her or what she might do but I took quite a few precautions. Keep in mind I’m trying to keep my son close during this time too so I’m having to take some risks. The stress she is putting me through is insurmountable. I’m not detailing the daily bursts in person when she shows up or on the phone or the messages. The deescalating techniques are not as helpful as books describe them probably because she may have some NPD elements present at the same time.

Couper

 That’s is true but she won’t get permanent position regardless. Worst case scenario I have to pay for an apartment for her for a few months and I’m not really opposed to that. I just want the nightmare to be over.

[NotAHero]

About #2... does she move back before or after complying with the legal stuff?  Why does it matter?  Promises mean little, it's the actions that count.  She could promise to work it out, move back and then insist on all sorts of delays and conditions.  Get the legal stuff in writing and according to what a local lawyer agrees is as binding as possible.

Is the residence a rental or do you own it?  Just saying, if you do end up divorcing and it's your home, there's risk the judge could award her possession with the child, even if only temporarily.

The only reason my now-ex didn't get possession of our home was that at the beginning I had protection (TPO) in a DV case and I got possession so she had to move out.  Otherwise I surely would have been the one on the outside looking in until our custody was finalized two years later.

Update to my case, legal papers signed ( after very careful push and pull cycles) and filed almost a month ago but for some reason the judge has not signed them yet.

 She tried to move back in gas lighting her way out of everything she did pretending “she never left just wanted a break”. I said no but keeping the relationship at arms length since the lawyer told me it’s 50/50 chance the judge will sign without a hearing. The anxiety and tension are high. I have a foot in heaven and the other in hell. Since I wrote my original post I have had things thrown at me, verbally abused countless times and much more. Nevertheless I kept the child exchange schedule going as if a court order was in place.

 I think whoever was using her got bored and bailed so she wants me back. She seems convinced with what she is trying to gas light me with. When I objected to the made up history she was enraged again after being nice for one day only. Reading the stories here and ironically giving advice to others helps me greatly in staying objective to my own struggle.

[NotAHero]

Don't do it. She's seeing someone else, yes? It took September through the beginning of February to get my ex to leave... while she was seeing her beau. It was an emotional hell for me. She phoned it in as a mother. She slept on the couch. Meals were largely separate (because I couldn't stand her face). She 9nce stayed out until 5AM while I was home with our kids. A teenage mom, basically. I didn't charge her rent or utilities so she could save up. We turned in the $40k SUV (2013 dollars) I had bought her at a loss to me of about $8k.

She wants something. Her past behaviors have demonstrated that you're not safe (she's not a safe person to be around). For pwBPD, "lying feels like survival." See this post from a recent thread on Detaching. I read that book.

It also isn't her choice whether or not to sign a parenting plan. She could be served. I'd keep doing to soft approach though for now. I convinced my ex, the talks and negotiations starting when she lived with me, and ultimately served her by mail, no public shaming from a process server.

My ex also asked to come back (by text!) about four years after her marriage to the guy she left me for imploded. None of that was for me, but her.

Edit: my ex and I weren't married and I bought the house under my name.

   I am going through a very similar situation now except she denies seeing others ( behavior and circumstances say otherwise).  Please tell me you got over it and it’s just a memory now…

[Turkish]

She asked to come back while separated but still married. I could have made it happen. I don't like her and she's gotten really weird with the public journey of self improvement from her childhood pain, but we get along well enough.