Items as connections

[Notwendy]

I understand the reason for this is a fear of abandonment. I have continued to maintain contact with my BPD mother regardless of whatever issues are going on.

One thing she does is ask me if I want something ( like an heirloom) and if I say yes, she will tell me to come get it or if I am already there, with a car, she won't let me have it. She's done this so many times that I do not come to get anything, as once I am there, she has changed her mind.

Every visit she asks to go over her things and tell her what I want. I don't think this is forgetfulness causing this. If I say I want something she then decides " I think I want to hold on to this for now". I have told her many times " I will take whatever you wat me to have" and yet, she keeps saying " we will go through my things one by one and you will tell me what you want" Sometimes I try to avoid the topic but she brings it up.

So now, after our talk, after she has said hurtful things, comes the phone call. " What do you want me to do with this item" and I replied please just send me anything you want me to have and then it's the drama over the item.

I won't ignore her, I think that is being reactive and adding to the drama. I just reply politely that I would appreciate having the item but this doesn't do it. I have told her I would still visit her. She knows I am at work and can't leave. I visited her just a few months ago and sat through this kind of exchange last time- saying yes to everything just to go along with it. The items she does let me have are worthless. I came home again with more junk she doesn't want. She keeps the good items- I see now as strings. The main reason I would want them would be to save them as family heirlooms- better that than to have them be given away or tossed out, but this kind of drama is crazy making.

[Couper]

It sounds like the question she is asking is really more to determine what she has that you may want than it is about what she wants you to have.

I have known people with important things to use them as carrots to keep people interested.  It is much easier for them to promise than to deliver.  Maybe they feel that people don't actually want them for who they are and if they finally give up the possession that keeps them coming back they will lose their hold on them.  Whether she knows she is doing it or not, perhaps it is a sign from her that she knows you have quit playing the game and that she doesn't have anything else to offer.  

[GaGrl]

My mother, with a few BPD traits, would frequently want to go over which items were designated to go to me and which to my sister. She must have had the conversation 8-10 times. Then my sister died at age 32 of breast cancer, so everything was to come to me. Even then, she would take her jewelry case out and go through each piece, telling me which occasion it was given to her or how she came to have it, and asking if it were something I wanted or if she should give it to someone else.

One day, she started up again, and I just didn't want to participate. I told her it was hers to do as she wished, and I found it morbid to have the conversation over and over. Not the most gentle way of handling it, but jeez...I was so tired of 30+ years of jewelry conversations.

She never brought out the jewelry case again.

I think she thought I enjoyed it. I don't know why she thought that. It made me crazy.

[Methuen]

What would happen if you said:

“Mom we have had this same conversation so many times.  I’m confused about Why we keep having the same conversation over and over?

Or

“When would you lke to give it  to me?”

[Notwendy]

Good one Methuen,
I did say, I am not able to come right now, but when I was there and said I wanted it, you didn't want to give it to me then.

Her reply was- "well I wasn't ready yet".

So the "when" is when she's ready whenever that is.

As Couper said- she wants to know if I want it, but if she wanted to give it to me, she had plenty of opportunities to do that.

Last time I was there, I said I really liked a decorative bowl she had, and then she wouldn't give it to me.

I don't really want anything now - It's as if this thing has been overused so much. I just tell her I want it to go along with it. Some things I would like to have stay in the family, but apparently she doesn't seem as concerned about them- or she would have decided to do that. She seems to want to do this thing but I don't know why.

[Methuen]

So I have been thinking on this, as it seems a bit out of the box, even for BPD.  I think it is normal for elderly people to start thinking about giving away certain possessions, and who to give them too.  That part seems typical.  Healthy people do this.  But this behavior you are describing seems far far outside of the typical box.

Every visit she asks to go over her things and tell her what I want. I don't think this is forgetfulness causing this. If I say I want something she then decides " I think I want to hold on to this for now".

What if you offered to "write things down"?  Make a list.  Then copy it, and each keep a copy. Then the next time she asks to go over her things, you can say "let's look at the list".  Could that change the game?

I'm just trying to think of a way to end the crazy loop you find yourself in with her.  If she doesn't want to make a list, then that is useful information for you.

I believe that human behavior has a motivation, but that the motivation may be hidden even from the person exhibiting it.  Awareness isn't generally a strength of BPD.  I can't help but wonder what her motivation is.  

One thought is that she is using it as leverage to control you, and keep you coming back.  That is kind of the obvious thing that comes to mind.  But I also wonder if it's possible that there could be something very different going on...  

Could it be that she is afraid of letting things go?  For example, could it be that an item is like a "piece" of her, and if she gives it away, she has lost something of herself, and that terrifies her?  For example, occasionally a toddler learning to toilet train struggles because they see their poo as a part of them and coming from them, and so flushing it away is scary.  Until they process what is really happening physically, toilet training may stall.  I'm not saying she's a toddler, but I recognize that pwBPD are complicated, and I just wonder if there could be something psychologically deeper behind this behavior.

I'm just completely making it up here.  It has me kind of curious.  

Can you give an example of an item where she has done this?

[Notwendy]

It's control and a part of her self identity, I think. She has always "needed" high cost items- very much has to have the best. She needs to be complimented a lot and to be told she's the best. These items are valuable and she makes that known. Sadly, in her refusal to let her children have them, some of them have been stolen. My concern is that - if they are this valuable then why has she not made plans for their care and protection.

We have made a list of items and who would like them. Still, it seems she erases this and wants to start over. It's not a memory issue, her memory is fine. And with the grandkids too. Once she knows we are visiting, she wants to go over every item and ask if they want it.

Perhaps she fears we only visit her because we want something, but we don't make that the reason. A lot of time we refuse to do this with her and tell her we prefer to do something else with her. She gets upset when we don't do it.

So last visit, to appease her, I sat through the "do you want this?" "yes, please and I can take it with me in the car now if you like" and the reply " oh maybe later" and "I'm not ready to give it to you". I also think part of it is that she has my attention for the whole time, because I have to just sit there and listen, and then say "yes" or "no" ( but she likes the yes).

She's done it with my kids over some of my Dad's stuff. She's seen tears well up when she says no. That was it, they won't do that with her. You may be getting at something here. She knows we wanted some of his things because we were attached to him. That was at the time though. She's done this so many times with us, we're just kind of weary of it.

This is why she gets a standard answer from me now. "If you wish to send it to me, I would appreciate it". I think what she really wants is for me to come get it. We tried that and when we get there, she changes her mind, so we don't do that.

My hunch is that she wants to find something I really want, something I would come running there for, maybe for her own security? But I still visit - not to get anything, not for anything material at all, but to see her and not her possessions. Her possessions are not my motivator and I have told her that. But maybe for her, they are connected? I know I would feel bad if someone visited me just to get something and so I don't do that to her or anyone.

[zachira]

My mother also constantly talked about her things and what her children would get when she died. I believe my mother did not want to accept that when she was gone she would no longer have control over her children, and is why she kept giving my siblings and I partial ownership of small properties while she was alive, which has created the legal messes I am with my siblings right now. I have hired a lawyer to end all joint property ownership with my siblings.
If there is anything you really want, I would tell your mother the following: I don't really know what I want of your things, however please don't give me...(things that you really do want). If she offers to give them to you, say you will take these things right now, just to make her happy.

[Methuen]

Perhaps she fears we only visit her because we want something, but we don't make that the reason. A lot of time we refuse to do this with her and tell her we prefer to do something else with her. She gets upset when we don't do it.

So last visit, to appease her, I sat through the "do you want this?" "yes, please and I can take it with me in the car now if you like" and the reply " oh maybe later" and "I'm not ready to give it to you".  she fears we only visit her because we want something, but we don't make that the reason. A lot of time we refuse to do this with her and tell her we prefer to do something else with her. She gets upset when we don't do it.

This would indeed be irritating. Anyone would grow weary of it.  It seems like a cat and mouse game, and she just doesn’t get weary of playing with her mouse.  

You seem convinced there isn’t a deeper issue going on here other than control.  You’ve already used  the strategy of making  the list.  Next step is to ask her gently when she would like to give it to you. If the response is not satisfactory, then maybe it is boundary time with an I statement.  

“I am frustrated and exhausted by having the same conversations about your belongings.  Repeatedly I am asked about which items I like to keep.  We have written it down. I cant repeat this same conversation any more because it is hurting me.  Next time it happens I will have to leave.”

Something like that.  Of course it will upset her.  Let her have those feelings, and give her time to process this.   It’s  a reasonable boundary.  Just avoid the word “You”  

She’s getting something from doing this.  Time to cut off the oxygen supply feeding it?

[madeline7]

My elderly Mom does this almost as frequently as asking us why she can't live with us. I think it's a control issue, a way to keep us coming back. She also is very superficial, and thinks everyone else thinks like her and places value on having nice things. When my daughter was in a serious relationship, my Mom promised to give her one of 2 diamonds in the family when she got engaged. One is my Moms and one is from my paternal grandmother. When the time came, she refused to give her the diamond, and said her fiance could give her a watch instead. So her fiances Mom came to me and asked if it was ok for my daughter to have her own mothers ring. I was blown away by the selflessness of the other grandmother (who was still alive at the time), and embarrassed by my own Mothers inability to honor her promise to my daughter. What it shows me is my Moms warped attachment to material items, and how she needs to hold onto them for whatever twisted reason she has in her disordered mind. When my Dad passed away, my Mom refused to give anything to the grand kids. I suggested each grand kid could pick out one of my Dad's shirts, and I would make a pillow out of the material for them. She refused, and some time later had a family member donate all of his clothing. So her need to talk about all her possessions and who will have them after she is gone is not surprising. I think for my Mom, part of it is a control thing to get us there to talk to us about it, and part of it is her toxic relationship to "things".

[GaGrl]

I'm thinking of a couple of reasons behind this behavior.

One is "object constancy" -- so if an item is connected to a person or experience, the pwBPD feels connected if he/she still has the item in possession.

Another is the lack of self -- that the pwBPD does not feel worthy of attention in and of themselves and must have a reason to capture attention using items of importance.

[Notwendy]

Madelyn- your situation is similar, with BPD mom not allowing the grandkids ( or me) to have some items from my dad or gingerly handing them out, one by one, at times.

I think it also comes from wanting attention and as much as we have tried to divert attention away from her belongings, she keeps doing this, perhaps for her own reassurance.

Some of them we might like to have but I don't want to go through this with her. Also if I tell her I want something- that's the item she keeps. I understand that is for reassurance of contact for her, so perhaps this is what she needs to do.