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Author Topic: SD14 thinks her "attachment issues" are only from DH  (Read 864 times)
kells76
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« on: March 27, 2023, 05:01:11 PM »

SD14 and I were chatting this past weekend. She is still seeing her counselor, which is good, though it is difficult that the C has not seemed to want to meet with us. In our state, there is no requirement for parental involvement, and because Mom has been at some sessions, there may be a perception or expectation that "that's more than enough". Kids 14 & over in our state can kind of call the shots on who is there or not.

SD14 was talking some more about wondering if she's autistic, and she said that her C seemed to think that she might be. I asked SD14 what having a diagnosis would mean for her, and she said that maybe she would get more supports with her IEP. I then asked her what it'd be like if she went through the assessment process and it indicated she didn't have autism, and she said that she would still know her own experience.

She was bringing up some things she's noticed about herself -- we were talking a bit about this friend she is going to see over Spring Break, a friend who SD14 refers to as "he" who I'm fairly certain is a female, and who according to SD14 is autistic and going through the diagnosis process. SD14 is very excited to see this friend and it sounds like the two of them have a lot in common. I did some digging and asked if it seemed like this friend was interested in dating or romance, and SD14 said No, and then also said that she (SD14) struggles with connecting with people and is not at all interested in a relationship -- I asked her why, and she said there wasn't really anyone she knew whom she was interested in.

I was doing a lot of non-reactiveness and finding validation targets this whole time, so SD14 was pretty open and kept talking

SD14 then said that she "has attachment issues" and "it's because of how Dad just up and left suddenly". She was 2 years old at the time of the separation. I've never heard her use the phrase "attachment issues" before, and it could've come from anywhere -- Mom, friends, counselor, I'm not sure. Should've asked.

I was really struggling to stay nonreactive, so the most I could manage was "it's true that the things that happen to us when we're kids, impact us when we're older". I also threw in that I'd heard recently the phrase that "not all of our problems are caused by us, but they're ours to solve". And then added that we always can choose how we're going to manage and work with our challenges.

...

Part of me desperately wants to use logic here -- kind of like, um, attachment issues can come from the parent we're around most, and who was that for you? Yup, it was Mom. And, attachment issues are also an outgrowth of family dynamics and family structures, not just from "one person did one thing". It's a longer term relational dynamic that gets patterned. And again, who was it setting that pattern?

And also, when two parents divorce... obviously, someone has to move out. Should DH have been a d!ck and "made" Mom move out? Wouldn't that have made Mom "the leaver" then? So would she have been "the bad one"?

I'm not denying the hurt SD14 feels. I know DH played his part. I don't want to get into the argument of "Well he actually was doing a good thing to end the conflict".

But there's so much history there -- how apparently it was *thisclose* to Mom actually leaving with Stepdad and leaving the kids with DH, how after the separation, Mom and Stepdad would be out late at night while DH would come back to the house and do bath/bedtime with the kids (I know this for a fact -- I was on the same sports team as Mom and Stepdad while DH and I started dating. I'd come back to my place after games and call DH, who would be alone at the house with the kids for hours after the game was over). There is so, so, so, so much stuff that DH and I have not told the kids about the early days. We've tried to be the bigger people. We've known for years that the narrative about DH is that "DH left and Stepdad saved the family". To have it still cropping up now is extremely difficult -- especially when right in front of the kids' faces, Stepdad is doing his open relationship with his "friend".

SD14 may be open to the idea that she might be prone to "black and white thinking", if she is open to the possibility that she is autistic. It might make sense to her and she may be able to accept that that is part of how she sees things. Kind of like -- it might be more palatable to her to accept "Yes, I have a tendency towards all or nothing/black and white thinking, because autistic people do". And so she may be conceptually open to the idea that "I tend to see things as Good/Bad, Right/Wrong, Hero/Villain, and that may be something I need to work on".

She also hates it when people make assumptions about her. And I think she could again conceptually understand "If I hate it when people assume things about me, because they don't have the whole story, then maybe I shouldn't assume things about other people, because maybe I don't have the whole story."

She has also told me that she knows she tends to be blind to toxicity happening right in front of her, because she wants people to be happy.

I'm just really struggling with how to balance out my huge desire to "set the record straight" with being age appropriate and child centered with her. I know it's inappropriate to just dump my perceptions on her and try to convince her that she's got it all wrong -- because that would mean that Mom/Stepdad got it all wrong, and I don't think she is capable of being open to that yet. But at what point are the kids old enough to start saying "You know, that's not the whole story"?

I feel really overwhelmed by this, like this task has landed in my lap and I don't have what it takes to cope with it. I feel like I can't just let her assertion slide, but I don't want to push her into doubling down on The Narrative. The difficulty is compounded because we have very little time with the kids. They're both out of town for spring break, so we won't see SD14 again for ~10 days.

IDK. I see that there are some doors in, like asking how she learned about attachment and asking if she wants to learn more about it; asking if she feels like she could trust what I have to tell her about the past; asking what she'd do if she learned new information about the past, etc. I just feel like I can't let this one sit, especially because I don't want to give the impression that by not being reactive to her statement, I was somehow agreeing with it.

Kinda stressed out.
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2023, 05:44:16 PM »

I was about the same age when I felt I was "different" from other girls. I thought they all were prettier than I was.  BPD mother had convinced me I was overweight but I was not. I had a very low self esteem. Guys and dating scared me. I had a difficult time attaching to friends and this persists even today, especially female friends.

I believe that this feeling different, difficulty with attachment to friends is due to the lack of a normal attachment with my BPD mother. Today though, there are so many proposed reasons for kids to feel different. For some children, these are the correct reasons but it seems your step children take on the labels their parents are interested in.

I think if I was in school today, I'd be labelled ADHD due to my daydreaming and inconsistent turning in homework due to the chaos at home and my BPD mother would have been delighted with that label because it meant that the problem was me, not her which she believed anyway. I did go to counseling for a bit and she was happy as it meant I was the one who "needed counseling". I do not have ADHD.

IMHO, ( and I am not a counselor) - if BPD mother has attended their counseling then she's influenced the narrative. The kids are with her most of the time and she influences their narrative as well. Of course if they have any issues or there is concern, it can't possibly be her - so there has to be another explanation. It's the child, your H, their autism, or some other label. This doesn't mean it isn't possible, sometimes the labels are the correct direction but sometimes it's the reflection of what is going on at home and the red flag here to me seems to be BPD mother and what is going on in the primary home
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kells76
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2023, 05:57:34 PM »

if BPD mother has attended their counseling then she's influenced the narrative. The kids are with her most of the time and she influences their narrative as well. Of course if they have any issues or there is concern, it can't possibly be her - so there has to be another explanation. It's the child, your H, their autism, or some other label. This doesn't mean it isn't possible, sometimes the labels are the correct direction but sometimes it's the reflection of what is going on at home and the red flag here to me seems to be BPD mother and what is going on in the primary home

You've identified my concern, which you and I as adults can see, but which SD14 may not be able to process (due to age, maturity, inclination, wiring, or whatever). To me, it's "obvious" that it's "the dog that didn't bark" -- how is it possible that everything going on with SD14 not only isn't due to Mom, but is due to Dad, AND allows Mom to look supportive? What are the odds?

Autism? Well, Mom is supportive, and "what can you do, it's genetic". Attachment issues? Came from Dad, Mom helped support SD14 by explaining (possibly). Non-gender conforming? Nothing to do with having a boundary-less parent with identity issues... definitely organically from the child, and supported by Mom. It's the BPD double bind again -- if Dad tries to highlight that gee, maybe some of these issues are constructed by Mom to allow her to (a) blame Dad, and (b) occupy the "supportive parent" role, then the knee-jerk response baked into the narrative is "Dad just isn't supportive, he doesn't listen, he doesn't understand you like I do, here's a universal explanation for your distress, which makes it Your Problem From Dad that I am just helping with"

By pathologizing the child, it takes the focus off of how Mom contributed, and any argument that maybe the child isn't the issue, is met with "you aren't supportive, you don't understand".

And I agree with you, all those labels could be accurate -- I don't really have an issue with that -- but the way they're being used is to double down on a rigid narrative that blocks off any questioning of Mom's role. And I worry that SD14 can't or won't see that.

...

I recognize that I'm definitely not in problem solving mode right now. I'm just feeling really anxious and overwhelmed by having to face this stuff again, at a time when DH and I are having a difficult time anyway.
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kells76
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2023, 06:21:59 PM »

There was other stuff that came up in our conversation, too, that seemed to indicate that The Narrative still has a strong hold on SD14.

For example, the topic of food/eating disorders came up. SD14 is a picky eater and now, whether because she's seen via peers/social media that many people with autism have food sensory issues/eating issues, or because she's just now able to identify preexisting behaviors, she is commenting that she has difficulty remembering to eat, doesn't eat in an orderly way, has strong preferences, and thinks that she has "binged" and eats because of boredom. I went through a serious ED as a teen so we've tried to not be "food police" at home -- yes, you need to eat some kind of protein and fruit/vegetable at dinner if you want dessert, but otherwise, we don't really police snacking, "junk food" that the kids buy with their own money, etc. So she was talking about these food issues that she sees herself as having. I was validating that people eat for all kinds of reasons -- celebration, boredom, hunger, etc, and that I've eaten for many reasons before, too.

Then she said that she thinks she hoards food, and that she thinks it's because "there was a time when we were on food stamps, and I didn't know where my next meal was coming from".

Again, I'm not discounting her feelings, and I'm not arguing about what happened in the past. What I'm angry about is that Mom did not protect the kids from adult concerns at that time. I mean, the kids were 2 & 4! A 2 year old isn't going to articulate the phrase "I don't know where my next meal is coming from" -- that's adult terminology. What a 2 year old might remember is feeling an adult's worry landing on the child for the child to carry. And what the kids will remember is if year after year after year, Mom cements the narrative that "we were so poor, we didn't know where our next meal was coming from". SD17 has also repeated stories of "Mom would be so sad because she wasn't eating, so that we could eat". Good God, this is not stuff for a parent to put on a child. And this whole time, Mom was on the same (you have to pay for it) sports team that I was. This was in a close-knit community. So many people would have given her food if that's what she really needed. Instead, I think what was most important to her wasn't the food, but the position of Righteously Impoverished Victim.

In fact, I remember once when the kids had been invited last-minute by one of Mom's friends to a birthday party on our time. It was a party where you had to pay to do the activity. We did not have the money so we told Mom, Sorry, we can't make it happen, we can't afford it. She insisted that we make it happen even though we said We do not have any more money budgeted for activities. She then insisted that we should find the money somehow, or move it around our budget categories, or if not, that she would lend it to us and we should pay her back. The double standard -- if she say's she's starvingly poor, then she is, but there's no way anyone else can out-poor her.

I'm angry because I have worked so hard to manage what I tell the kids about those days, so that it doesn't turn into me bidding for them to carry my feelings. I would feed us food I found in dumpsters but I never told them that. I took under the table cash jobs that clashed with my morals but I never told them that. DH lost a ton of weight and both of us were relying on food we found at work, but we don't go on and on about what martyrs we were. I sold my own shoes to get the kids Walmart raincoats one Christmas, and I never told them that. The kids' mom didn't want them doing overnights with DH because "she didn't like that he had a room in a shared house". The reason that was the only place he could afford was because he was giving well over half his money to her. What was he supposed to do -- again, be a d!ck, keep more money, and have a place of his own?

So in addition to feeling anxious and overwhelmed, I feel angry and like I want to vent about the double standard. I have not vented in a while, so it is likely that my conversation with SD14 is bringing up a lot of feelings that I have not touched for a long time and have suppressed for a long time in order to "be the better person" and just make it through. I also recognize that so much of what I am venting about is from many, many years ago. This is not fresh venting, so that probably means something.

What I wish could happen, and why I am probably venting, is I wish that there was a way I could help the kids see a more balanced view of the past, that is beyond just the "Mom is the innocent, righteously poor victim, Dad, who is an evil rich person, caused all the problems by suddenly leaving" narrative. But because I feel powerless to make that happen, I am finding many, many things to vent about.

Guess that's where I'm at today.
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« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2023, 04:57:41 AM »

I went through a serious ED as a teen so we've tried to not be "food police" at home --

What I'm angry about is that Mom did not protect the kids from adult concerns at that time. I mean, the kids were 2 & 4!

I'm angry because I have worked so hard to manage what I tell the kids about those days, so that it doesn't turn into me bidding for them to carry my feelings.

So in addition to feeling anxious and overwhelmed, I feel angry and like I want to vent about the double standard. I have not vented in a while, so it is likely that my conversation with SD14 is bringing up a lot of feelings that I have not touched for a long time and have suppressed for a long time in order to "be the better person" and just make it through. I also recognize that so much of what I am venting about is from many, many years ago. This is not fresh venting, so that probably means something.

What I wish could happen, and why I am probably venting, is I wish that there was a way I could help the kids see a more balanced view of the past, that is beyond just the "Mom is the innocent, righteously poor victim, Dad, who is an evil rich person, caused all the problems by suddenly leaving" narrative. But because I feel powerless to make that happen, I am finding many, many things to vent about.

Guess that's where I'm at today.



I understand- so vent all you need to. I think there were parallels to this with my BPD mother. The labels/explanations were different but it was about her not being to blame for any issues. BPD mother read the pop psychology books of her era and so were using these ideas to explain. Same process, different language of the times.

The Karpman triangle describes the interactions in the family- BPD mother is the victim in this scenario. BPD mother confided in us - TMI about her issues with my father. She also blamed me for their issues as well. I believed that when I went to college, my parents would be happier together.

As to the food issues- does the girls' BPD mother have an issue with food? Mine does, She's not overweight.  She would be "dieting" and then eat the food later. She told me I needed to lose weight. I was insecure about that. When I look at pictures of myself as a kid/teen- I was not overweight - I was an average sized kid but BPD mother had convinced me I was too big. I wonder if your SD's emphasis on her picky eating is actually BPD mother telling her that. Teen age kids eat all the time due to their changing bodies and growth.

Money was an issue as well during my teens, and I was very aware of that.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to control what a parent tells their child. My BPD mother seems to lecture a lot- she tells us how things are and who we are. It would make sense that a child learns behaviors and terms from them.

Maybe my best encouragement is that, even though your efforts could not avoid all of this, they have made a difference in that you and your H have modeled something else for the girls. For me, these role models were my father's family who we spent time with as kids and my friend's families as a teen. I think the girls' experiences would be different if their BPD mother and step father were the only parents they spent time with. It may not seem as if you are making a difference when the girls say these things but I think you are.

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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2023, 06:02:47 AM »

I understand the frustration with the "victim" perspective. You and your H are trying so hard to do the right thing and yet, the disordered thinking reframes it. Nobody is perfect, but you are doing the best you can.

There are times I get frustrated too. I could do several nice things for BPD mother and she'll focus on the one thing I didn't do perfectly or find something wrong with what I did and it's demoralizing. For you, it's the girls who are parroting this perspective to you. I also felt a bit like this when my kids were teens as teens can be critical of their parents at this age and teens are trying to figure out themselves too.

I think all parents have influence on their kids, so you and your H have influenced them too.
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« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2023, 10:08:25 PM »

I think it’s safe to say that this isn’t your burden to bear, and that there isn’t actually anything for you do do here. Your H’s relationship with his daughter really is his to manage on his own. And at the end of the day she is going to believe what she wants to believe. Since she’s probably in a loyalty bind with her mother it may take her many years before she is ready to accept the truth about her. 

What your H can do is continue to show up for her as best he can.
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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2023, 11:00:42 AM »

In our state, there is no requirement for parental involvement, and because Mom has been at some sessions, there may be a perception or expectation that "that's more than enough". Kids 14 & over in our state can kind of call the shots on who is there or not.

Because Mom has been at some sessions... Has Dad been at some sessions too?  Clearly, BioMom has been influencing daughter, no doubt some level of influence in sessions too.  Is D14 willing for Dad to attend some sessions, even if only before or after, and he could provide some reality background?
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2023, 11:05:57 PM »

Quote from: kells76
I would feed us food I found in dumpsters

Been there as a kid and I have no problem telling my kids that, but then they aren't step-kids...

She's looking for validation targets:

I feel I'm different from most other kids. I may be autistic.

Maybe she is, and given what I know with my ASD1 son, it's harder on females. She feels differently: validation target.

The growing up poor deal, food deprived, I can relate to. I loved me some government cheese! Yet that wasn't her fault, and she's OK now. It sounds like she still has a fear or guilt?
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kells76
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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2023, 10:53:39 AM »

Hey Turkish;

Been there as a kid and I have no problem telling my kids that, but then they aren't step-kids...

She's looking for validation targets:

I feel I'm different from most other kids. I may be autistic.

Maybe she is, and given what I know with my ASD1 son, it's harder on females. She feels differently: validation target.

The growing up poor deal, food deprived, I can relate to. I loved me some government cheese! Yet that wasn't her fault, and she's OK now. It sounds like she still has a fear or guilt?

I think you're right that there are a few threads going on for her:

1- "The Narrative" of the past (comprising, among other themes "Dad up and left and is the bad one who only thinks of himself and is emotionally abusive", "Mom and us were so poor", "Stepdad saved the family", etc)

2- Desire for validation

3- genuine worries/concerns

and they probably get tangled up sometimes.

It is challenging for me because from my perspective, parts of "The Narrative" from the past is Mom overdramatizing some fairly normal things to the kids, and then the kids hanging onto the drama to get... IDK, status? to not have to question Mom? to feel special (desire for validation)? to reconfirm to themselves and Mom that "Mom was the victim"?

For example, SD17 would talk about how Mom had to stuff "rags" in the cracks under the doors because "they were poor" and the house was cold. Um, we literally do that right now with towels to stop drafts, and my parents had special draft-stopper thingys when I was growing up, too. This is kind of normal in old houses, but somehow, it's a status thing or a victim role confirmation thing or something, and the kids repeat the story.

SD14 brings back the theme of "not being able to buy food" and says it's still happening at Mom's house. I want to reclarify that I am not saying she shouldn't be concerned, worried or fearful. She's gonna feel what she feels. What gets me is that -- wow, could Stepdad being part of 2 households (romantically involved with Female Family Friend) have anything to do with money being tight? So "The Narrative" then also takes poor decision making, or different priorities, and makes that "what could we do, we were just poor" instead of "Stepdad should keep it in his pants and focus on funding his child and stepkids".

So there are validation targets tangled within the narrative. If I'm being honest with myself, what I would be able to genuinely validate would be:

SD17: It makes sense that you remember some things from growing up that stood out to you, that stick with you today. Any kid would remember vividly things a parent did when the parent communicated that it was because of not having money.

SD14: Worrying about food and affording food is so natural; anyone in your position as a kid would feel that way. When we experience a parent being stressed about something, that impacts us as kids, and the memory can stick with us.

and I think those are validating the content in what the kids tell me, that I feel I can validate. I wonder if I'd have to ask some direct questions to find the deeper validation target, like:

What feelings do you have attached to those memories?

...

IDK... I get that this is a long road, and just because SD14 seems to still be committed to Mom's narrative now, doesn't mean she always will be -- but it's really difficult to find a way to listen to what she says (that comes from Mom) and not be reactive or want to "set the record straight".

We do see SD17 with a little more awareness now. She got a job and wants to talk to us about how to budget and manage money, which we're very open to do. She also wanted to set up a bank account. As a minor she has to have it attached to a parent account with parents able to access her money. We thought she wanted to open one with us helping, but when she got in the car with DH the other day, she asked to go to Mom's bank. DH let her know that he can't open an account for her there, so she would need to have Mom/Stepdad take her. SD17 said that Mom & Stepdad only want her to open her account at their bank "because it's the one they trust". DH asked her if she wanted to tell them that she opened an account at our bank. SD17 said she didn't have the energy to have that argument with them, and that she would just do what they wanted her to do so there wouldn't be conflict. Somehow the topic of "time and energy" continued and DH asked -- so do Mom and Stepdad have the time and energy to take you? SD17 said she didn't know. She's been sitting on her first check from the job for weeks now.

So SD17 I think knows at some level that there is some degree of choice involved in "being poor" -- I don't mean "well you chose to have huge medical expenses and have your apartment burn down", or "you chose what economic class to be born into", but that everyone has a choice about how to manage whatever amount of money they happen to have, from pennies to millions. She may finally be picking up on how Mom saying "we're broke" every month isn't an uncontrollable "act of God" but has some choices leading up to that.

...

Again, IDK. Intellectually I understand that Mom and Stepdad cherry-picking normal life occurrences and using those to build a victim narrative is just what they are going to do -- that is the PD traits at work, and why am I so surprised that it's still going on. If I'm surprised they're still doing that, that's on me.

I think it's hard to face it coming from the kids day after day, month after month, year after year, and it sets off some huge feelings in me -- powerlessness and anger with a sense of nowhere for those feelings to go. I am back to having big reactions to hearing "The Narrative" from the kids, after a good stretch of not being set off. Probably that is my real problem.
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2023, 11:11:09 AM »

How could Mom's bank be safer than Dad's bank?  Realistically funds are typically guaranteed up to $250,000.  So her funds would be "safe" at almost any bank.

And if SD17 opens an account at Mom's bank, there might be a risk of Mom dipping into her money, or guilting her into doing so, since "they're poor".  I believe you and Dad could assure her you wouldn't ever do that.

A reminder for when she turns 18, encourage her to move her money into her own independent account, though she could still be vulnerable to guilting and manipulation.
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2023, 11:11:42 AM »

Because Mom has been at some sessions... Has Dad been at some sessions too?  Clearly, BioMom has been influencing daughter, no doubt some level of influence in sessions too.  Is D14 willing for Dad to attend some sessions, even if only before or after, and he could provide some reality background?

She may be more open to me being there than DH at this point, given her perceptions. We are also culturally/socially pretty different from the counselor (as far as I can tell) and so there are a couple of layers of what it'd take to provide additional info to the counselor -- I'm concerned that some of our values/beliefs would be focused on by the C as "problematic" and the source of SD14's "issues". It would take some needle-threading to bypass that stuff.

She did bring up "disordered eating" and her sort of detached observations about what/how she eats, and I commented to her that that's a hazardous road to go down. So that may be a doorway in -- it would be legitimate to tell SD14 "disordered eating is a big deal, and managing that sooner rather than later is pretty important. You can decide if you want to tell Counselor about it and tell her to have me there, or if you want me to call Counselor on my own and share my concerns". That might be the only opening we have at the moment.
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2023, 11:16:40 AM »

How could Mom's bank be safer than Dad's bank?  Realistically funds are typically guaranteed up to $250,000.  So her funds would be "safe" at almost any bank.

And if SD17 opens an account at Mom's bank, there might be a risk of Mom dipping into her money, or guilting her into doing so, since "they're poor".  I believe you and Dad could assure her you wouldn't ever do that.

Believe me FD we are on the same page. The whole "it's the one we trust" definitely came across as a smokescreen to me. It's like you have decades of experience picking up on implied BPD messaging  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

There was a member here a while back who also had 2 stepdaughters. The oldest one was promised by Mom that Mom would pay for an expensive college -- even though I think the dad told SD that Mom didn't have the money. SD wanted to believe Mom and so went, then, if I'm remembering the story correctly, was saddled with all the debt (and maybe had to leave the college?) because Mom paid nothing. That was the turning point.

I think SD17 might also have to have a really bad experience with Mom taking her money, before being willing to see things differently. I don't want that to happen, and at the same time, like your BPD radar is suggesting, it is within the realm of probability.
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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2023, 11:54:35 AM »

I think SD17 might also have to have a really bad experience with Mom taking her money, before being willing to see things differently. I don't want that to happen, and at the same time, like your BPD radar is suggesting, it is within the realm of probability.

I am no so sure it wouldn't be a bad thing if her mother took her money at an early time. Mostly, it wouldn't be that much money ( hopefully not a student loan) and she'd learn very quickly to move it to her own bank account. It could be worse if she'd been out working after college and a large amount was taken.

On my part, I trusted BPD mother much longer than that and it was a sad surprise to have that trust compromised. But it's also the reality of it. I don't think we learn another way. I think kids want to trust their mothers and will do it unless they can't.
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2023, 01:45:12 PM »

Excerpt
I'm just really struggling with how to balance out my huge desire to "set the record straight" with being age appropriate and child centered with her. . . at what point are the kids old enough to start saying "You know, that's not the whole story"?

I struggle a lot with this: my huge desire to "set the record straight," which is a form of JADEing. I find myself eager for my children to get to an age (when?) where I can say more, and then I wonder what is behind this. Some of it is simply that I've found information (like what BPD is) to be so clarifying and I'd like my children to have the same clarity. For now I just validate and model behaviors. But that can feel like it's not enough.

While I fear my children seeing me as the bad guy, even more I fear that they will turn out to have his inability to regulate emotions.

I have to actively work against the idea that one parent is good and one is bad, even though I'm pretty sure I am stable and my co-parent is not. The book How to Talk to Your Kids about Your Divorce by Rodman was helpful for me.

Your husband, her dad, is somewhat absent from your account. What is their relationship like?
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2023, 05:06:21 PM »

Excerpt
I think it's hard to face it coming from the kids day after day, month after month, year after year, and it sets off some huge feelings in me -- powerlessness and anger with a sense of nowhere for those feelings to go. I am back to having big reactions to hearing "The Narrative" from the kids, after a good stretch of not being set off. Probably that is my real problem.

I think the hardest thing to do is making peace with the fact that when you have kids with a pwBPD, it is a gift that keeps on giving — even if you get divorced and get 100% custody of the kids. I know it has been a rude awakening for my father that he didn’t put all his troubles behind him and live happily-ever-after when he divorced my mother and then got full custody a few years later, because the damage had already been done.

The reality is that the kids cannot not be affected, and they do tend to buy into The Narrative, and it can often take decades for them to see the light. Some never do. Out of my BPD mother’s eight children, so far only two of us have been willing to face the truth about her. (And truth be told, I am now realizing that my father has his own share of dysfunction himself…)

Personally, I am already grieving for my unborn great-nieces and nephews, and fear that even though I now know the truth about my mother and am in all kinds of therapy, that I will still pass on the dysfunction to my own kids.

But we can’t let ourselves drown in sorrow over these things, and for the sake of our own sanity, we have to accept that we have no control over the family disease of BPD, and find a way to make peace with that.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2023, 06:15:33 PM by Couscous » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2023, 05:19:33 PM »

I hope it is ok that I respond here. I joined the forum as a parent with BPD child. That being said- my mother is undx'd but classic hfBPD, I suspect my ex is NPD with possible comorbidity BPD and well- I am codependent.

You posted about 2 things I'd like to respond to- the "bad parent" and your sd thinking she may be autistic.

Bad Parent: A bit of background- When I told me ex I was leaving, he begged me to stay because he couldn't be alone. A few hours later he came to me with a list of all things he was now going to do. They were all of things I had asked for over the years. He was even finally willing to see a marriage counselor. He did not belief in mental health/ counseling and had consistently refused- even going to a session with dd and her T. What he did not realize was that all 3 of my doctors insisted I leave the toxic home environment. Later after I had left and we were dealing with the process of divorce, he asked me if I knew how embarrassing it was for him to walk in an attorney's office and say- my wife has breast cancer and wants a divorce. You get the picture.

When we told dd about the separation/divorce and that I was leaving, we gave her the option to choose where she wanted to live. He begged her to live with him because he did not want to be alone. He had 3 family members living within 5 miles. I had breast cancer and was alone.  (Thank God for giving me incredible, loving friends). After the discussion, I showed her the floor plan of the apartment I was moving into. I choose a space where she could have her own bedroom bathroom.  She said she was going to stay with her Dad because he needed her. He was the victim.

I wasn't totally surprised. Thing had not been good with us. I admit, I was doing a lot of yelling. And when I told my ex I would no longer yell at her and badger her about school- the marriage went from bad to totally toxic.  She and I have talked about this. She has told me she was close to hating me at that point. I have learned to accept that she is sensitive to volume and yelling. And while I try not to yell, she has accepted that I am passionate and need a reminder that my volume is rising. She is open and good about giving me that reminder and I immediately tone it down. There have been just a few times in the last few years I have lost it- and primarily it has been the "favored parent/ bad parent" dynamic which triggered me.

Recently, in the midst of trying to understand what is happening with her, her T told her she couldn't be BPD because she hadn't had any family trauma. ( He has known her since her admission to a therapeutic high school.)  Her father told her that she and I did a lot of yelling at each other. I admit, I didn't handle it well. You see  when I refused to do it, he had to do his own yelling. And it would frequently trigger her to go running off into the woods, on one occasion threaten to cut her throat and on another to punch the wall and break her hand. And those are just the ones I know about. I I know it was wrong but I did say to her that while we may have indeed yelled at each other, she never with me did any of things I listed above.

It has always been her Dad. And it most likely always will be. Most of the people in my world who have known all of us for years tell me that she knows I love her unconditionally but it not clear his love is the same. I still struggle to accept it. He holds the purse strings and much more. Even her T told her she had to deal with her Dad. But the truth is only she can do it- no one else.

It is the same for you sds. They are not in a position to do so now and may never be. I love the advice given in one response- be the role model. Love them, show them what healthy living and love is and support your dh. The best way to get them to understand it is for them to see it in practice.

Autism:  Before my dd hit rock bottom and got her BPD dx, she really felt she was autistic. She and others think my ex might be on the spectrum. She was dx at KK with ADD at 5 1/2. Recent testing confirms no autism. I asked her why a label was important. She told me that it would help her understand what is wrong with her.  She had a list of potential autistic behaviors she supposedly has.

I wonder if your sd is feeling that she is different and is looking for a possible reason? I think you have done a great job validating her and hopefully she will feel comfortable exploring the issue more with you.

My heart broke when I read your story. You and your dh have certainly been through tough times.  I admire that you continue to push through and hold tight to your family with love.  Your sd's are very lucky to have you in their world.

  

  

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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2023, 08:31:56 PM »

Excerpt
What feelings do you have attached to those memories?

That my mother was partially incompetent at life. The year prior to us moving to the mountains she learned how to dumpster dive for produce. I think that we did that partly due to being low on money and partly because she felt a victim of society and gained validation by surviving. That never changed.

Back then? It just sucked. Even as a teenager I don't feel that I viewed us a victims of The Man (System) though there was some of that. Later in life I realized that by rescuing her financially that I was enabling her poor choices.
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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2023, 03:23:00 PM »

Thanks all for the thoughts. I'll respond bit by bit.

I struggle a lot with this: my huge desire to "set the record straight," which is a form of JADEing. I find myself eager for my children to get to an age (when?) where I can say more, and then I wonder what is behind this. Some of it is simply that I've found information (like what BPD is) to be so clarifying and I'd like my children to have the same clarity. For now I just validate and model behaviors. But that can feel like it's not enough.

I'm in a similar position. Intellectually I understand that validating, and modeling behaviors, are incredibly important and are impactful. And yet I too feel like it is not enough. Like I could validate and model and SET and not JADE 24/7, but the kids will still be drawn to the addictive nature of Mom & Stepdad's dysfunction.

While I fear my children seeing me as the bad guy, even more I fear that they will turn out to have his inability to regulate emotions.

That's interesting. A big fear of mine isn't how the kids see me, but how they see their dad (my H) -- that they'll stay committed to seeing him as the bad guy, and that he'll continue to be hurt. I guess you could look at it differently, like you're saying, though -- like, what if the option is either: yes, they see him as the bad guy, but they also have better skills; or no, they stop seeing him as the bad guy, but end up with poor skills. IDK. Again, intellectually, I'd agree with: DH and I endure them seeing him as the bad guy now, if ultimately they can come out mature on the other side. But it's hard.

I have to actively work against the idea that one parent is good and one is bad, even though I'm pretty sure I am stable and my co-parent is not. The book How to Talk to Your Kids about Your Divorce by Rodman was helpful for me.

That's a dialectical dilemma for sure -- how to not let the reality that one parent is more functional bleed over into a "good versus bad" dichotomy. I don't think I've read that book yet.

Your husband, her dad, is somewhat absent from your account. What is their relationship like?

It's not overtly bad. They have a show they like to watch together, and she'll still snuggle with him. They can be goofy together, and in certain ways they are similar (quirky/alternative, into tech, like shopping, say weird things, etc). He has gotten a lot better about not being invalidating. For example, in the past, if SD14 had said something like "I really didn't like Movie X, it was traumatizing!", DH might've responded "It wasn't that bad, it was just XYZ". Now, he can ask "What didn't you like about it", and she'll say "I didn't like ABC", and he can say "Yeah, that makes sense."

I think my worry is that she's been exposed to The Narrative for so long, that it might seem like an "instant answer" to any time there is conflict between her and H, like things might be going well, but as soon as there is conflict, she'll interpret it through the lens of "I don't have to listen to Dad, after all, He Left Us and is selfish and only wants things his own way". I guess I have a fear that even if things have been okay between SD14 and DH for a while, that it's still so tenuous that at any moment, if there's conflict, and if DH doesn't manage himself and his reactions, that it'll totally blow up and fall apart.

For the last 2 years I have struggled to trust that DH can and will manage his reactions when there is conflict with the kids. It's better now than a year or two ago, but my fear is really deep and I often feel like I must do 200% of the validation, calmness, non-reactivity, active listening, etc, just in case he doesn't.

We've been struggling in our own relationship and so that makes it hard to talk to him about these things.
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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2023, 07:56:24 PM »



For the last 2 years I have struggled to trust that DH can and will manage his reactions when there is conflict with the kids. It's better now than a year or two ago, but my fear is really deep and I often feel like I must do 200% of the validation, calmness, non-reactivity, active listening, etc, just in case he doesn't.

Your fears are not unfounded. If he doesn’t learn to manage his reactions then yes, there is a very real risk that he will reinforce The Narrative. However, the irony of this situation is that the more you try to rescue him and overfunction for him, the more he will underfunction, and the less opportunity he will have to practice managing his reactivity, further reinforcing The Narrative.

The good news is that you actually do have some power here. If you can dial back the overfunctioning this will give him the opportunity to step up the best he can. He may not ever earn any Father of the Year awards, but he probably could do a lot better. And if he fails and ends up being seen as the bad guy, well, that’s just the way the cookie crumbles, and it will be on him.

At the end of the day he has to be the one to manage his relationship with his kids, and this would apply even if you were their mother. I have had to learn this lesson myself with my H and children, and he has been doing much better in terms of managing his reactivity and staying calm when dealing with them after I stopped rescuing him.

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« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2023, 06:14:05 AM »

I will agree with Couscous that the narrative has an influence. The narrative is one parent's perspective and even if it's a disordered parent, they are a significant person to that child and have an influence.

Questioning the narrative happened over time. I think the biggest narrative growing up was to "normalize" my BPD mother's behaviors and probably my first realization that something was different about my mother was when I was old enough to spend time at friends' homes and see that their mothers behaved differently. As I mentioned before, a large influence for me was staying with my father's extended family. But I didn't understand BPD or the kind of dysfunction well until many years into adulthood. Adults didn't speak to me specifically about my mother having a mental illness- some didn't even know what was going on themselves. My mother's issues were the family secret, and normalizing her was the main narrative.

The criteria for "nothing is wrong with BPD mother" would then have to have a "reason" for her behaviors and so, other people had to be the problem- and so the blame or being the bad guy narrative- was not a direct motivation. It's not that the reason for the narrative was to discredit someone. This was the result of the dynamics. In the Karpman triangle, for BPD mother to take "victim" perspective, someone else had to be the bad guy and someone else, the rescuer, but these roles could change according to how she was feeling and who she was upset with.

Divorce is a complicated decision when there are children involved. I don't think it's going to be an all or none decision in terms of what is best for the children. It's a very personal weighing of all the pros and cons. We also can't know the other road not taken. Your H chose divorce. My father didn't and while in ways that was protective of us, in other ways we were still exposed to BPD mother's behavior and the narrative.

The other parent has an influence too. My perception was that BPD mother was the main problem and my father was the "good guy" and somehow a victim of her behavior. That's not realistic either. I didn't examine this idea until I had to face relationship issues of my own and a counselor brought up co-dependency with me.  Interesting that this was "normalized" for us as well but since my mother's behaviors were so overt and noticeable, Dad role modeled our ideas of what "normal" is, not just "normal" but desirable as being an enabler and emotional caretaker for BPD mother were the expected behaviors. One aspect of growing up with dysfunctional parents is not knowing what "normal" ( if there is such a thing) is.

I've mentioned before that I think you have a large positive influence on your step children by role modeling a contrast to their BPD mother- words are not necessary or even appropriate- you can model desirable behaviors. Kids don't just learn from words, they learn from what they observe. Some of these were small moments for me- events other people would not even think made a difference. Consider too that at the time my parents married, most women didn't work outside the home, so most of these examples happened with women in the home. Seeing a friend's mother cooking in the kitchen- helping my friend get ready for prom, interactions with my father's female family members. These were "normal" daily activities but when your own family is disordered, (my BPD mother is very affected by BPD) "normal" is noticeable.

So we heard the narrative and so did other people. Yes, there's the "Dad is the bad guy", and criticism of his family members, and also us kids. BPD mother's narrative also has caused divisions between me and other family members, even with my own father. Ironically, she seems to be a bit bewildered over the consequences of this- she's the one who painted me as the "bad guy" to her family and then didn't understand why those relationships became strained. This tells me that - while she was not unaware of what she said, the motive was due to her own victim perspective. Not that it excuses it but it's a different motive than to just say things about someone else.

I think that the girls' mother is not as invested in your H being the bad guy, as it is for her to be the good guy and to be blameless in the divorce and not accountable for any hardships involved. It's not that your H has to be "bad" for who he is. It's that she has to be the good guy and so he has to be the bad guy. Unfortunately, since you are aligned with H, you are also involved in this- because you are a contrast to her as well.

Couscous touched on the idea of "over-functioning" and I will too as this was an issue for me- over-functioning, smoothing things over, making sure everyone is happy- these were "norms" in my family growing up. Managing other people's emotions was something I learned to do well. One thing that jumped out at me from a book I read on relationships was that we "match" our partners in some ways. I had assumed any issues in my marriage were due to me, as my family of origin was the most overtly disordered and by contrast, my H's looked like the idea family. How could we possibly match? By being almost opposite. It's not that there were no conflicts, it's that they just didn't talk about them and didn't express many emotions. My H's mother has co-dependent traits and she over-functioned in her caretaking. And this was a match.

With marital issues, I think it helps to look at the "match" possibilities. Who we are attracted to and who is attracted to us is influenced by our families of origin. Your H was in a relationship with someone with BPD. Then, he "matched" with you. You surely don't have BPD. One thing a counselor brought up with me is the idea of choosing the opposite. Since I didn't want to be like my BPD mother- I tried to be my idea of what that should be, which is to over-function, but then that has its own issues as well.

So back to your H- he knew from his first marriage what kind of partner to avoid but also then, did he choose you because you are so not like his ex? Is he more comfortable when you over function? I don't want to read too much of my own experience into yours, but sometimes the "match" points are information we can use to learn about ourselves and what we might do differently. I think you are doing the best you can for the girls in a difficult situation, as love and stability are an important influence, but if you and your H are having issues- working on that can also benefit the girls. Any relationship skills or insight we gain can have a positive impact on all our relationships. With kids, we use the skills we have in forming our relationship with them. It may be that if you are doing more of the relationship building with the girls- that is more comfortable for him, but by stepping back, and encouraging them to go to him, he may gain more confidence in engaging with them.
 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2023, 06:21:12 AM by Notwendy » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2023, 08:57:28 PM »

Excerpt
As I mentioned before, a large influence for me was staying with my father's extended family. But I didn't understand BPD or the kind of dysfunction well until many years into adulthood. Adults didn't speak to me specifically about my mother having a mental illness- some didn't even know what was going on themselves.

I sensed something akin to pity from some. It was more in looks and one family providing me a safe place and belonging, of which my mother was jealous.
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