Mediation

[Gdoodle]

My lawyer suggested i talk to my ubpdw about mediation and go our separate  ways, this way we can save money and not go thru long court battle. Has anyone gone thru mediation? How did you break the news? How did the bpd spouse take the news? What was the outcome of the mediation?

Thank you

[CoherentMoose]

Hello.  Welcome.  Unfortunately, mediation rarely works where one of the partners has BPD or high conflict traits.  Use your interwebz foo in here and search on mediation stories. 

Have you read the book Splitting by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger?  If not, consider reading it as preparation materials.  Also, I liked Bill's BIFF book as well.  It helps frame up all communications with a high conflict person. 

Mediation may work if your partner is motivated to dissolve the marriage.  In my fiancé's case, he found another woman inside of 45 days (after a 20 year relationship with my GF) to focus on and became motivated to expedite the divorce.  However, she had to use a lawyer as he has a pathological need to control everything and my GF knew the only way she could negotiate with him would be through lawyers.  More costly, but the only way.  Thank goodness he found someone else to take the pressure off.  Good luck.  CoMo

[ForeverDad]

From my own experience and what is reported here, most courts actually require the parents to start with mediation attempts.  (I say "attempts" since early in a separation our spouses are usually too entitled and demanding to agree to reasonable terms, as alluded to by CoherentMoose.)  If a few attempts fail, that's okay and even expected, you just declare it failed and proceed to the next steps.

You have a young child, that is the biggest and most sensitive issue above all else.  How entitled as a parent is your stbEx?  Even if she has let you assume much of the parenting in the past, her sense of "public face" may cause her to demand to be the parent in charge and you get mere crumbs.  That too could cause mediation attempts to collapse.

Once you determine what demands she might make, you can decide how to respond.  While you certainly have the goal to be as involved a father as possible, be careful not to reveal all your strategies to her.  Make a loose comparison to a high stakes poker game of sorts.  What strategies do you have up your sleeve?  Which cards do you throw her way to let her think she is winning?  Without letting her become aware and then try to sabotage you, which cards are you most interested in?

I'm thinking your lawyer is wanting to try mediation even before the court sets a temporary order, often the court's first step?  That might be a good start since all too many courts default to old policies where mother always gets temporary custody and scheduled majority parenting time.

From what has been shared here, it is very important that we the reasonably normal parents get the best (or least bad) temp order from the very start.  My experience, my temp order had me stuck as alternate weekend parent with no custodial voice for over two years while the divorce case proceeded oh so slowly to a final decree.

[Gdoodle]

The reason my lawyer suggested mediation is because after she listen to tapes of my ubpdw verbally attacking me and admitting to physically hitting me and making verbal threats against me. My lawyer believes my unpdw wants out of the relationship which i agree with for past few years she has been telling me she wants to leave and i can keep the kids. She has become successful in her career and i feel like her work has filled her emptiness and we (me and kids) are just after thought and annoying. She’s been wanting to move out for years but i think she wants me to pull the trigger or at least i agree that our marriage is over, i was the one in denial.
But we all know they are very unpredictable so i feel like timing is everything, they need to feel like they are in control and i need to make her feel like she is in power/control and not me.

[mart555]

Doesn't hurt to give it a shot, but don't consider it a success until it's all signed legally binding.  My ex ended up backing out from an agreement that took 2 days (mediators + lawyers).  And now she wants to go back to mediation...  guess who's not going back!

[CoherentMoose]

Hello again.
She’s been wanting to move out for years but i think she wants me to pull the trigger or at least i agree that our marriage is over, i was the one in denial.

Only you can make the final decision to pull the ejection handle on your marriage.  There is an old joke in the military aviation community: "You pull the ejection handle when your fear of death overcomes the fear of the ejection seat".  I'm guessing at some point your fears of leaving will overcome your fears of staying married.  The challenge is being honest with ourselves about the fears, what is best for ourselves, as well as what is best for our children.  A therapist may help with honest feedback. 

If she is motivated to end the marriage and you get primary custody, then press on with all do haste for your children's sake.  Give them that more normal lifestyle with you as soon as  you can. 

But we all know they are very unpredictable so i feel like timing is everything, they need to feel like they are in control and i need to make her feel like she is in power/control and not me.

You'll know real fast once you sit down to hammer out the details.  Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.  Best for you, and most important, best for your children.  The legal system, mediation included, is conflict oriented.  Even with normal people, the process is a grind.  Add in a high conflict person, well, it gets downright painful.  Suggest again Bill Eddy materials.  My GF uses the BIFF tips consistently and it helps. 

Good luck and please keep us up to date on your situation.  CoMo

[Gdoodle]

I am ready to sit and have a talk with my ubpdw, i know there is not really a best time to have a discussion like this but with Christmas around the corner, should i have a talk with her before or after Christmas, i am just trying to find out what would be best for the kids. And thank you all for your advice i no longer feel alone in this world!

[mart555]

should i have a talk with her before or after Christmas

It will likely turn to PLEASE READ anyways.  Remember to cover your ass: record and document just in case.  For many of us, it turned seriously explosive.   

[ForeverDad]

In what way will talking with her improve things?  Logic (our typical approach) seldom works when dealing with emotion-driven people whose perceptions are slanted toward self-interest, blaming and blame shifting.

Perhaps you can feel her out for what she wants and will settle for — though she is likely to be entitled and not be inclined to be reasonable — before divulging details about the outcome you need.  If you were trying to recover the relationship, then sharing is important to building trust.  But if the relationship is failing then you have to be careful about what you share.

Mart555 is right, the early days around separation time is a time of high risk for escalation of conflict.

There's a saying, If something has been threatened, or even just contemplated, it WILL happen, given a long enough time frame.

[kells76]

I am ready to sit and have a talk with my ubpdw

i am just trying to find out what would be best for the kids

Any reason why you couldn't know on your own what's best for them?

Have you heard of the acronym "FOG"?

Sometimes, people in long-term (marriage, kids, etc) relationships with pwBPD lose sight of their own abilities. pwBPD can come across as "together", "wise", "insightful", "correct", etc -- especially when it's the mom in the relationship with BPD/BPD-type traits.

I wonder if a person who does this:

verbally attacking me and admitting to physically hitting me and making verbal threats against me

could know what is best for the kids... ya know?

What do you think?

[Gdoodle]

I do know what is best for my kids and me  but i still feel anxious knowing this called relationship i have been in for past 10 years will be ending. I guess i became used this toxic relationship and it became part of me. Not knowing the future is getting me anxious, even though i see the light at the end of the tunnel it still feels very far away. I wonder if i could ever love someone besides my kids again or be loved by someone again. Or even rediscover the word love again.

[kells76]

I do know what is best for my kids and me  but i still feel anxious knowing this called relationship i have been in for past 10 years will be ending

Makes sense to be balancing both at the same time, that it's not one or the other. Anyone would be anxious in your position, with a lot of unknowns in the future. My DH also divorced 10 years into his first marriage; his two kids were 3 & 5 at the time. It's hard.

I guess i became used this toxic relationship and it became part of me.

That also makes sense. The pwBPD's overwhelming lack of self, and desire to "get a self" / "be a self", I suspect can suck self-hood away from the partner. Kind of like, you have to sacrifice your self so they can have one. Not healthy, not fair, not helpful. And yeah, it's a double-edged sword of being a human, that we can get used to pretty much anything.

Not knowing the future is getting me anxious, even though i see the light at the end of the tunnel it still feels very far away.

Of course. You're at the "beginning of the end", the start of a process of unwinding and closing a chapter of your book.

...

Gdoodle, could you please remind me, are you seeing a counselor/therapist of your own?

I ask because I think I'm sensing some entangled goals -- of course, correct me if I'm wrong, please.

There's the goal of figuring out coparenting and what the kids need -- ideally, a very "business partner" type of interaction. Here's the schedule, we're on the same page, united front, etc.

There's also the goal of you seeking closure in your relationship -- lots of gray areas, she was always the one "wanting" divorce, you're wondering if you can love again.

Is that close to the two goals you have going right now?

...

One of the critical parts of making coparenting work is to be really intentional about separating your adult romantic relational work from your coparenting tasks.

If/when you move forward with separation and divorce, it may be tempting to combine the tasks -- perhaps in a conversation about the kids' schedule, things turn to "please just tell me what I did wrong, so I can have closure" (or whatever -- just an example).

My hope for you would be that in addition to us here, you also have the guidance and support of a good T through this process, so that you have another place to go to do your adult relational unwinding work.

Due to the nature of her disorder, your W won't be able to help provide closure for you, or reassure you that you'll find someone else to love, or assuage your anxiety about the unknowns.

In fact, what may happen is that she WON'T be able to keep her relational emotions away from coparenting work. For us, it's been 10 years SINCE DH & the kids' mom divorced, and she still treats every logistical interaction as a referendum on how she is the better (more loveable, more right, more together... etc) parent, the "chosen" parent, and DH is the "rejected" parent. She's imposing her intense BPD feelings about the adult divorce (the ultimate abandonment) onto coparenting decisions, and always trying to offload her feelings and impose them onto kid-related interactions (i.e., "The kids told me they want to be with me, not you" type stuff  )

...

Anyway, long story short, I guess, is that I'd highly recommend you find a counselor/therapist to walk beside you on this journey. The more caring, neutral, 3rd party professionals involved, the better your ability to maturely separate your work with your anxiety and grief, from your necessary tasks of coparenting. Again, it's hard work, but it's worth it.

Hope that helps...

kells76

[Gdoodle]

Yes, i have a good therapist and also great group of supporters (family, friends and coworker’s) they are all helping me thru this tough time and i am grateful for them.

I will not get emotional with my soon to be ubpdw, i will draw a boundary i will talk to her regarding parenting but i will not go further and i will stick to this promise, i will not fall into this toxic relationship again. I am bitter i have given everything i had for past 10 years, meeting her needs and thinking something was wrong with me and thinking i deserved all the abuse i received for 10 years. I know i need to let go of this bitterness inside of me. I finally have the courage and strength to move forward and hope to raise my kids in a loving home.

[mart555]

I know i need to let go of this bitterness inside of me. I finally have the courage and strength to move forward and hope to raise my kids in a loving home.

You might want to read the book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life" which I believe will give you some more courage because it will explain why you ended up there.  In my case, understanding made a massive difference.

[yeeter]

Mediation is pretty much a required step in the process.  Lawyers will want to represent to the judge that every attempt was made to settle amicably.

It can be used as a tactic by your stbx to drag things out.  So push it early, schedule it as soon as possible.  Then the box is checked and you can move forward with 'the hard way'

The other valuable aspect of mediation is that it summarizes what both parties want and corresponding evidence to a large degree.  It also gives the lawyers a chance to 'coach' on what is a likely outcome.

If successful the best route to go.  But if one side is unreasonable, simply a waste of time.

(we did 'conciliation' instead of mediation, using a retired judge.  That judge recommended a settlement that was rejected by her.  So a waste of time - just another way to drag it out.)

[Gdoodle]

I have decided to speak to her after Christmas. I am expecting the worst so i am preparing not staying in the house. She wanted to talk yesterday and again she started to blame me for her behavior and i told her we can continue our conversation after the holiday which she agreed. Question for everyone if a bpds repeats same thing during an argument how much of it is true? She always mentions about leaving/divorcing me and wanting to live on her own for past few years. Is that how they really feel? I am ready to move on with my life, i tried my best for past 10 years but i am not available to make her happy maybe one day she will find happiness but I need to remove myself from this toxic relationship.

[ForeverDad]

The divorce threats may be similar to the suicide threats some members have experienced.  Not that they really will do it but because it gives them what they feel is leverage in the relationship.  Perhaps too they may feel that way but it's more about their emotional feelings than following through with it.

If it were suicide threats then our perspective is that you're in too close of an emotional relationship — and not trained — to judge whether the spouse is truly suicidal or just posturing for whatever reason.  In that case you call the trained emergency responders and let them or a hospital team determine the risks.

However, be aware that few people want to look bad in front of others and so be prepared for Denials or even you being cast as the disturbed one.  In such cases having proof (witnesses or recording) of what really happened is vital.

As regards divorce threats, I believe it is similar.  Your spouse may Deny or discount it as just venting to later be forgotten.  The reality though is it was very distressing to you.  That just can't be papered over by claims it was no big deal.

That's why you need to know what you will do about the marriage's future regardless whether she denies, minimizes, agrees or whatever.  Is it to determine whether she really wants to divorce?  Is it to set ground rules (boundaries of behavior) for the marriage going forward?  Is it to notify her of your intentions?

Divorce courts are there to be passive referees while a marriage is unwound.  It is well known that the times of highest risk of conflict, allegations or violence are during the initial stages of separation and/or divorce.  With that in mind you should want someone trusted nearby to be available to come to your aid during such serious discussions.  Or be able to record the incident so you can document you weren't the one behaving poorly or aggressively.