These are some boundaries I'm giving myself.

[steelwork]

I'm on the edge of getting out of a relationship with a man I've been seeing for four months. That is, I'm close to 100% sure I need to end it, but I don't feel good about ending things without first giving him a chance to respect some clear, kind boundaries.

You can see the topic here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=353244.0

Anyhow, we're getting together later today, and I want to be prepared to tell him clearly what I need for the relationship to continue. Note that I don't have much optimism about it working, even if he does agree to this stuff, but I want to make sure that what I'm asking is both clear and fair.

I posted this on the "conflicted" board but didn't get any response to it, and now I think I used the wrong board. I'm not planning on reading it to him or giving it to him to read. It's just me working out what I want to say. I would really appreciate some feedback.

Apologies that it's kinda long. Even if you could just look at the paragraphs I marked (1), (2), and (3) . . .

Thank you,
Steelwork


=======

Remember that time we talked about what each of us wants from a relationship at this point in our lives? You said understanding–that your dearest wish is to be understood. I want that, too. It’s something I’ve always craved, and I think that’s part of the reason we were drawn to each other. But what I said I wanted most right now was stability. I’ve just had such an unstable life. I was raised in a lot of chaos and moving around, and because of what I absorbed while I was growing up, maintaining stability has always been a struggle for me. I’m not young anymore, and I feel like it’s high time for me to get serious about that. I really want it. Living a predictable life, not feeling like I’m putting out fires, keeping the stress level down as much as possible in my personal life, and having a relationship with someone who I feel like I can really count on emotionally.

I love you, and I feel lucky to have found you. We've had a lot of fun and even some transcendence together. But our relationship hasn’t been very stable. It’s really been a lot of ups and downs, especially recently. We've each contributed there. For my part, I've heard you when you said you felt like I was prejudging you, anticipating scenes of conflict that would "happen" to me as a passive participant. That’s fair. I have been on edge, and I get that it’s discouraging for you when you are trying your best.

So I’ve spent this past weekend thinking about why I’m on edge and anticipating conflict, and why I feel like it’s out of my control. I thought about what might make things feel more stable for me.

(1) One thing that I got clear about is that I see a connection between your drinking and our uglier conflicts.  I don’t want to tell you what to do, but I also don’t want to put myself in situations that are bad for me, and I’ve seen that alcohol makes those painful scenes a lot more likely. So I’m asking that you not drink around me. If you do, I will have to leave wherever we are at the time. If you think you will be drinking, I’m asking you to let me know in advance, so I can avoid putting myself in a position where I’ll have to leave. Some places I already know I’ll need to avoid. Like, I know you drink when you’re in XXX, so as much as I love hanging out with your mother, I can’t go there. Unless you let me know you don’t plan to drink, but that’s for you to decide, obviously. Ditto for your pensione: I can’t hang out there unless you let me know you won’t be drinking. All respect to you and what you decide; this is something I’m doing for myself.

I also can’t be texting with you when you’re drinking. If you’re not physically present, I won’t know for sure if you’re drinking, so I have to ask you to help me. If you’re drinking, please don’t text unless it’s some sort of emergency. If I reach out to you while you’re drinking, I am asking you to let me know that’s the case, and we can cut it short.

(2) This is the main thing: I don’t want to go through scenes like the one we had at your mother’s house last week. If that is going to be an ongoing feature of our relationship, I can't stay in it. Those episodes are not just painful but also make it impossible for me to maintain a sense of stability.

I get that it's not possible for you to promise that won't happen again, but I want to be transparent: I don’t know how many more of those storms I can go through. Maybe two more. Maybe none more. Please understand: It’s not because I think I’m blameless, and it’s not because I think you aren’t trying. I just can’t withstand it emotionally, and the up and down makes it impossible for me to feel stable.

(3) Another thing is that I don’t want to sit in agony wondering if you’ve broken up with me, like I did the night before our vacation when you left my apartment without saying anything. I texted you to ask what was going on, and you didn’t reply, and I thought that meant you were done. Then it turned out you weren't. I told you when you came back after breaking up with me under similar circumstances, in a similar way, that I couldn’t go through that again, so if you leave again without explanation and don’t respond to my texts, I’m going to call it the end of the relationship. It will be heartbreaking, but it will at least be clear, and the rollercoaster will come to a stop for me.

I have really, really thought about it, and I know that I need these things to be happy with you. And I want to be happy with you, which means stable. If you don’t think you can try it this way, or if you don’t want to, I will be sad, but I also completely understand. And if you feel like you want to try, I will do what I can to help you.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

I’ll have to echo Forever Dad’s reply on the Conflicted board. Neither of us are BPD and we both got lost in the verbiage.

One of the major difficulties in communication with pwBPD is that they do not shift referential index easily. What I mean by that is they seem to have an inability to put themselves in your shoes and consider how you feel. They may be very good at offering sympathy at times but they’re not versed in empathy.

Imagining how a pwBPD might take what you’ve written, whether you deliver it verbally or in writing, I’m thinking it could easily come across as blaming…then shaming. And once he enters into this territory, the defenses come up, and well, you know the rest.

Best to keep it simple and not explain your feelings. Yeah, it sucks, but do you want to be heard? Or do you want to express yourself? Often it seems you have to choose only one of these when you have a BPD partner.

“I’m choosing not to be around you in the future when you drink.”

“I’m not going to engage in conflict.”

“I won’t stay in a relationship when there is no communication.”

Even these simplifications of your #s 1-3 could easily be seen as an attack.

Boundaries are for us, not as a means of controlling someone else’s behavior.

[steelwork]

Okay, thanks for reading.

I guess they don't seem like good boundaries to try?

Unfortunately, I don't think I can go on without them, so if it's too much for him, that is my answer.

[kells76]

One way I might see it is that:

the fact that he might not respond well to the way you communicate your boundaries, doesn't mean that the boundaries aren't good to try.

I'd see a difference between what your boundaries are, and how the boundaries get communicated.

I hear you that writing a lot of this down here is you working out what you want to say, versus you listing verbatim exactly what you'd read out loud to him. Tracking with you there.

What Cat Familiar and Forever Dad might be getting at is that there are two "tracks" going on here. One is what you want, and the other is how you communicate it. I think I'm seeing them focus on the how, so I want to take just a moment to look at your what (your content), which I think is what you asked about here:

I guess they don't seem like good boundaries to try?

We're allowed to have whatever boundaries we want. Boundaries are what we decide inside ourselves that we'll let into our lives. Some people have no problem with, for example, texting a partner who's drinking. You do, and that is OK. Ambiguity about "are we broken up or not" and nonresponsiveness are also not what you want in your life. Again, that's OK. You are the one who gets to decide what you want to participate in. I don't see anything that would make those bad boundaries to try -- you've obviously thought a lot about what you want in your life and what you're up for.

So, in terms of content, where it's focused on -- what do YOU want in YOUR life -- that all makes sense. Of course, if the boundaries were phrased as "my boundary is that he is required to not do ABC and has to do XYZ" -- well, then we'd be talking about the What, about the content (as boundaries aren't ultimatums for others). But as long as a boundary is about what you want in your life, and is actually controllable by you, then it's legit.

The "What" all seems fine.

...

The real question seems to be about How to communicate your values.

Something I learned here that is nonintuitive is that boundaries don't require verbal or written announcement. Boundaries can be things we live out through our actions.

Boundaries also aren't up for negotiation or argument. They're your core values.

When we lean towards wanting to Explain our boundaries to others, especially others who have distorted thinking and poor filters, we can undermine ourselves. Explanation puts boundaries in the realm of "but I don't understand, so let's have a big discussion and argument over whether it's valid". It de-legitimizes the boundary as boundary and instead places it as "optional" or "you can be persuaded out of it" or "I have a better argument for why it's wrong".

Boundaries can be communicated through the action of the boundary. Sometimes some minimal statement is appropriate, too:

"It doesn't work for me to text someone when there is drinking involved".

or, shorter:

"I don't text when there has been drinking".

or, action only:

*you don't respond to drunk texts, even with a statement*

Doing your boundary through action only also counts as communicating the boundary, and over time has the potential to be as effective as we'd hope that verbal/written announcement of the boundary would be.

Sadly, BPD isn't a disorder of lack of understanding or not having an insight. I think we all wish it were. We hope that if we explain ourselves, or are fair in letting them know our perspective, or offer justification for something new in our life, that they will grasp it, have insight and understanding, and accept it. I think all of us here can kind of nod our heads, though, at the reality that that doesn't happen.

...

I think I might see a point you're making tacitly, though -- are you maybe wondering if it's "unfair" to not give him a heads up? Correct me if I'm off base.

...

Hope this maybe adds some clarity to the discussion -- breaking apart the "what" and the "how" seemed important. I definitely don't see any issues with the content of your boundaries, and hope that there's a way to tune the communication to be as effective as it can be, whether verbal, written, acted, or other.

Thoughts?

[steelwork]

Thank you, kells76 and everyone who has responded. This has been helpful for me. I think maybe I needed to do some word vomiting before seeing him today, so that I will have it out of my system.

I think I might see a point you're making tacitly, though -- are you maybe wondering if it's "unfair" to not give him a heads up? Correct me if I'm off base.

Absolutely on base. I don't see much chance of the relationship continuing, but giving him a "heads-up" before exiting seems like the decent thing to do.

I also hold some hope that hearing this stuff said out loud might be a catalyst for him. He was sober for over a decade at one point, and he might decide to go back to it. And he's been enthusiastic about working on stuff (reading THE HIGH-CONFLICT COUPLE with me, looking for a couples therapist), so I think it's possible he might seek out an individual therapist.

I don't expect those things to change the behaviors, or at least not anytime soon, but if I can help him connect with other people, at least he won't be alone without me. As I said, he doesn't have any friends. No one to talk to but co-workers and his 90-yr-old mom.

[kells76]

Absolutely on base. I don't see much chance of the relationship continuing, but giving him a "heads-up" before exiting seems like the decent thing to do.

That makes sense; you would want to act in a way that's consistent with your core values.

So then the question becomes -- where do you want the "guiding ethos" of the "here is my heads up to you before I exit" to tilt towards?

What I mean by that is: you can decide if you want what you communicate (and how) to be: most effective for him, most cathartic for you, most short and to the point, most statement-y, most unarguable, most "explaining every possible detail", most... ?

The key point is that sometimes a statement can be most effective for a pwBPD, but it can't also be most wordy. Or, it can be most cathartic for you, but least effective. Or, it can be most "short and to the point", but least "explains everything".

So you have this opportunity to think about what you really want and organize your priorities. It will involve deciding "I can have it like this, but that means I can't have it like that". You might prioritize: I need this to be as short and statement-y as possible. That means that as much as you may want to explain a lot, it can't be both ways. Or, you may prioritize: I need this to be as cathartic for me as possible. So then you would have that, but it may open the door for lots of engagement and argument.

I guess what I'm thinking about here is that you're in the driver's seat for how you want the "exit conversation" to go, and you have a lot of choices. We're here in the "been there done that" zone, sharing that for us, more explanation has never more effective with a pwBPD. So, that's info you can use and think about.

...

This also caught my eye:

if I can help him connect with other people, at least he won't be alone without me. As I said, he doesn't have any friends. No one to talk to but co-workers and his 90-yr-old mom.

What do you think about whose job it will be if he can't maintain those connections, even if you were to make them for him before exiting?

[waverider]

The defensive nature of pwBPD means that they cherry pick conversations looking for potential blaming this the automatically triggers a kneejerk defensive denial. They are deaf to all other explanations or clarification.

So best to stick to, "I dont like this and this is my boundary in response". Enact it and dont further justify it.  A pwBPDs low cognitive ability to connect cause and effect will fail to objectively link the real reasons. They will drag you into justifying your decisions, but this just creates a smoke screen in which you become lost and start to doubt your own reasoning.

I came to realize boundaries work best if you just enact them, not negotiate them. Yes it creates pushback but you need to have the patience to work past that.

[steelwork]

I came to realize boundaries work best if you just enact them, not negotiate them. Yes it creates pushback but you need to have the patience to work past that.

I'm not sure I agree that it would be better to get up and leave when he drinks alcohol without saying something about it first.

Anyhow, I think it went okay. I told him my boundaries, and he listened. He agreed that the alcohol was definitely contributing.

For better or worse, I told him where my head was at, and now he knows, and he thanked me for my honesty. He wants to take some more time to think about things. So that's what he's doing, and more than likely he's working up a head of steam about it. Still, I'm glad I spoke up and explained my limits as gently as I could. It felt like the right thing to do.

[steelwork]

What do you think about whose job it will be if he can't maintain those connections, even if you were to make them for him before exiting?

Clearly not my job, but . . .

Now, hours later, I'm feeling the impact. Replaying my words and seeing him sitting next to me, listening, getting sad. We were supposed to spend the evening together, but he went home instead. He said something about getting together next week. Because of the big blowout we had recently, the time he needed after that, and the intervening weekend when each of us was out of town, we haven't spent time together in a week and a half. So that will be two and a half weeks.

And playing back my words, I hear them as laying the ground for a breakup. I'm sure he heard them that way. And one thing I'm feeling is that I want him to know how much he means to me, how beautiful our time has been. I keep wanting to reach out to him, but I have to leave him to react how he's going to react, even if that means he thinks I'm abandoning him.

Because, yeah, he was terribly alone when we met, but that was the life he made for himself.

[Cat Familiar]

This sounds cold, but they all seem to have a tragic story about how other people have abused them or betrayed them and that we are the *perfect person* who will love them and life will be so much better.

For those of us who are rescuers, codependents, and/or caretakers, this is balm to our souls. We have finally found someone who *needs* us, loves us, and who will appreciate what we have to give.

Unfortunately we often become yet another notch on the bedpost of people who have let them down.

[steelwork]

No question about that, cat familiar. It doesn't sound cold to me. There's no mistaking the fact that he has what we used to call a "persecution complex," and many questionable stories about being wronged by this or that person.

Of course, that doesn't mean he didn't have a lot of terrible things happen. I wonder, in his case, if c-PTSD isn't at play. He had a bizarre and genuinely traumatizing childhood and young adulthood in a cult (and I know his family, and there are news accounts verifying a lot of it).

The upshot of all of this is that he's isolated himself. And I am sad that he's going to be so alone.

[kells76]

The upshot of all of this is that he's isolated himself. And I am sad that he's going to be so alone.

As weird as this may sound, what if that is what is best for him -- to be alone? What if in some way that is the most healing, safest structure for his life? It may be subconscious, but that happens a lot with all kinds of people. We find ourselves tipping towards a life that works for us emotionally.

To be more blunt, and again, please push back if I'm off the mark:

it's your sadness about what you see as his loneliness... it's not his feeling.

That can be challenging to work with.

Thoughts? Close? Off base?

...

Edited to add one more thought:

Grieving that we wanted something different for a loved one is a real grief.

[steelwork]

Yes, it's my sadness I'm talking about here.

He has coping mechanisms that are manifestly making things worse for him and making a relationship impossible for me. Lashing out is one, drinking to excess is another. He knows they're coping mechanisms, and he knows they are making his life worse. This isn't new information I can give him.

Isolating is another coping mechanism. People make him feel terrible, because he's so sensitive to rejection, etc. But I assume he idealized me, showered me with love, etc., partly because he doesn't want to be so alone. And now he's pretty much driven me away.

I'm sad about it. That's all, I guess.

[Go3737]

I am in a similar boar re: the drinking.
After 39 years together i am putting the boundary in place... I will not live with you if you are drinking.

No ifs ands or buts.

She said previously she wont drink around me... so when i am not around she'll drink and i'll come home to a raging beast? I dont think so.

No drinking. I will support and help her any way I can with a program. But will not tolerate any drinking.

It fuels the rages.

[steelwork]

Hi Go3737,

Exactly—the alcohol converts resentment into full-blown rage! Thank god I have been sober for years. Otherwise I might have responded in kind.

The "don't drink around me" boundary is pretty limiting, as you say. But we've only been together for four months and don't live together, so I feel like it's appropriate at this stage. If I was trying to live with him, it wouldn't work at all!


I looked back at your recent posts and see that you are moving back in with your wife today. I wish you the best with it.