I have an opening to separate. Do I take it?

[FirstSteps]

I realize this is a very personal question.  But after a period of calm, my wife has been split for 24 hours because she didn't like the way I answered a question about planning the weekend after next. 

I have more or less not JADE-ed and held my boundaries, which escalated everything.  She is once again talking separation, divorce, moving back to her home country. 

These aren't idle threats.  She printed out custody documents last week, even when it was calm.  It's been her go-to conversation for months now, after never mentioning divorce seriously before in 16 years. 

We have a therapy appointment tomorrow.  We started with the therapist explicitly as a last try with possible separation if we fail.  We haven't seen him for two weeks, and while he seems to somewhat specialize in PDs, he explicitly told us he believed we could make it.  Anyway, despite that, tomorrow would be a chance to just finally go for it and make it "official" - that we should at least formally separate.  Either by making it work for our summer month in her country and then separating or just not going to together.

I always back off in these moments because I don't want to make the decision in a conflict when my head feels like it's melting.  It's also the trauma bond, I'm sure.  She is playing a lot of mixed games here - for example I just now got a picture of our wedding from her.

This time I want to take it more than ever.  Anyone have advice on rolling with the adrenaline versus actually building up the courage/strength to leave when it's calm?

And I've also read that separating from a pwBPD is bad because it is so uncertain.  But is it really not a good option on any level?  I am daydreaming about having 3 to 6 months to get my head straight before I make huge life decisions about the family, moving (I'm actually open to it if the kids would be ok with it) and more.

[maxsterling]

Remind me again - how old are the kids?  Where are the kids now?

[GaGrl]

Yes, a couple of questions about the children...

Do you want to prevent her from taking them out of the country permanently? Or are you assuming she would take them and then have primary custody wherever she chooses to live? Is her country of origin a member of the Hague Convention regarding child custody? If not, you would need to file quickly for temporary custody arrangements and be specific that she cannot leave the country with the children, or that she would need to post a bond, etc. to ensure the children's return.

My H was always afraid that his then-wife would take their children to her country, although she would have gone to the family's village, which he could get to. But at the time, her country was not a member of the Hague Convention.

[kells76]

As a side note, the US Supreme Court recently issued a ruling pertaining to the Hague Convention:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/20-1034_b8dg.pdf

I have not read it yet, but just wanted to alert members to be aware if they believe their situation would be affected.

[BigOof]

She printed out custody documents last week, even when it was calm ...She is playing a lot of mixed games here - for example I just now got a picture of our wedding from her.

She has you right where she wants you. Confused, longing for the good times, at therapy (which is a trap), calm vs. raging... This is the classic cycle of abuse. She's getting ready to stick the knife in and twist while you're giving up concession after concession and you're wondering how anyone could do this to you.

Get a lawyer. Start recording all interactions. Don't be naive.

[FirstSteps]

Thank you so much for all the responses.

My kids are 15 and 13.  I have clearly been the primary parent in most real ways for their whole lives, and they would never willingly go with my wife in a situation where they couldn't be with me. (Though they both love her - she's an inconsistent and often confusing but competent and dedicated parent).

We actually lived in her country before, and I am a citizen there now.  I can also work there easily, and my employer is actually based in that country, and I believe I could get legal assistance. So there is little chance that I don't end up with at least 50% custody.  And I would have to agree to the move. Her fear is that I will get 100%.  She has been too ill, and she realizes she would not appear in court like a competent parent.  I realize that things could get crazy and flipped in court but, so far, she's been playing from this position of weakness - that she'll lose the kids, not take them away.

My fear has been more of the chaos kind.  Like we will be in her country this summer and she will "lose" or destroy the US passports, making it a nightmare to get back into the country.  And in that situation, I should absolutely research all the legal treaties.  I certainly don't want to get stuck living in her country against my will (and the kids' will).

All that said, I am more concerned about the actual leaving.  I appreciate the advice to get vigilant now.  I will start recording.  And I will use the therapy session to at least set agreements for the summer then put them in writing.

The rest of today had some calm minutes but she is devastated that I'm not cycling back into the dysregulated pattern.  There is just something different this time - like it is so clearly an abusive pattern and I can't stomach sliding back into it.  I also had a conversation with my daughter that made it so clear I need to give her at least 50% of her life in a normal, predictable atmosphere.    

Probably will still go back and forth - I feel my resolve wavering on actually saying in therapy tomorrow "I want to separate and live separately."

[15years]

I've tried leaving in an adrenaline rush two times now the last year and I learned a lot from it, so I wouldn't undo it. What I do know now is that it's extremely hard, and you might already be emotionally drained from ruminating about this decision.

If you try a separation, be observant of everything you experience. It will possibly help to get rid of some worries you've had, when you see it for what it is. Also, as I believe kells told me in a thread, notice the difference between the immediate urgency that we often feel especially from pwBPD but also in ourselves. Even if your world feels upside down one moment, you'll see things clearer soon.

So if you leave, your wife will experience an extreme urgency and you might feel it too. You might feel like this "if I just go back to her, everything will be alright, it's all I ever want"'

[Notwendy]

BigOof has a point. You have changed your responses to her. Her actions don't "work" for her in the same way. Could this be an extinction burst on her part?

We can't tell you whether to stay or leave of course- but whatever you decide, try to stay calm and not emotionally reactive in the middle of the emotional storm.

On one hand she plans for divorce, then sends you a wedding picture? Emotionally she's all over the place.

Regardless of what you decide- you need to be the emotional rock for your children, to provide support and stability. You choose the best place to do that- ( your country) where you have the most control over your job and your role as a parent. She has choices too- she can take off and go back to her country if she wants to do that. (I am betting she won't) and you also have the choice to stay or leave in the relationship.

I personally don't think this kind of decision is on an "urgent" basis. That's her doing. She may be in emotional crisis mode and creating the urgency. It could be urgent to leave her presence if she were to be violent but to dissolve a marriage isn't usually a quick process from what I have heard. I haven't gone through it myself so there are others who are better able to discuss that than me.

From my own experience, I heard the "divorce" idea from BPD mother several times when she was upset with something over my father. In actuality, she has been completely dependent on him financially and also emotionally and it would not be easy for her to pull that off. It sounds like your wife probably is too.

This may be a manipulation to get you back to her country. There may be a "grass is greener" there illusion. I recall many of these kinds of things- blaming the issue on something else- the house, the kids, where we were living- and the idea that had to change to "fix" things.

Recall the personas in the "Borderline Mother" book- queen, witch, waif. When my mother is angry/upset about something, she may take on all of these personas. Think of this behavior as the tools that have worked for them so far. Yes, it may be abusive, but it's also behavior that has been reinforced over the years. You are trying new relationship tools. She still has the ones she has. If you only had a hammer in your tool box, you'd use the hammer.

One of these is to cause a chaotic emotional scene. BPD mother has even threatened to do that. There are push pull dynamics.

If you decide to leave the relationship- you do it as your own decision, not based on how she's acting at one moment, but as something you truly want to do- regardless of if things are good at the moment or not. She may want to leave one minute and not the next. If you look to her to take the lead on this, you will be swaying back and forth. If you don't trust her with going abroad, then don't go. Or lock the passports/plane tickets up where she can't get them. You need to be in control of what you need for your own well being.

[BigOof]

I've tried leaving in an adrenaline rush two times now the last year

"It takes an average of 7 attempts for a survivor to leave their abuser and stay separated for good."

You've got another few more attempts to go, 15years.

[15years]

"It takes an average of 7 attempts for a survivor to leave their abuser and stay separated for good."

You've got another few more attempts to go, 15years.

Better try four more times as soon as possible, after that I'm free to decide if I want to continue or not

But if we seriously consider that quote, to that number also count people who have not learned tools like we try to do here. Of course there's other ways to work on oneself too, but just thinking about how lost I was one year ago. Totally different story now after crawling out from under that rock. Just saying I could make a third attempt successful

[Notwendy]

Yes, you could make an attempt successful.

I have heard the same thing, from someone who works at a DV shelter. It doesn't mean that people who come to the shelter are any less capable, but to me, it speaks to how complex, emotionally, these relationships are and that it's complicate to unravel them.

But the goal of the shelter is to support people getting out of these harmful situations and being supportive of them as they do. It's not impossible but to have empathy for how complex it could be.

[FirstSteps]

BigOof has a point. You have changed your responses to her. Her actions don't "work" for her in the same way. Could this be an extinction burst on her part?

 Or lock the passports/plane tickets up where she can't get them. You need to be in control of what you need for your own well being.

I was hoping this was an extinction burst but she seems to be spiraling out of control - so the opposite.  I'm not sure she has a coherent enough inner world to be calm.  I think I've always known that but did not want it to be true. She actually said yesterday "So I'm just supposed to change and be calm ?"  She's pretty self-aware of herself up to that crucial BPD point, where it just disappears.

I'm also trying to take in what Kells said in another thread - that I can't wait for her seas to calm - just build my own set of rocks on the beach for either calm or storms.

And I agree - this has to be about what I want on my terms.  And I do need to take control of the passports.  That would solve many of my fears.  As for getting out of the relationship, I haven't even tried for real once!  Though I keep moving the goalposts further in that direction. 

So today I am going to focus on establishing enough safety and separation for the summer.  My therapist wants me to focus on one thing at a time, and that is what I need - space and agreements (even if they are not followed) that I can use to get through the summer.

To put today into context, it is both our wedding anniversary and my grandfather's memorial service.  He was 100 and died on the other side of the country in 2020 (not from Covid) so this is both less charged but also a long time coming.  And I want to honor him and his memory.

But first therapy and a safe summer!  And I'll start researching laws and recording when needed.

[Notwendy]

It's not about her changing. We can't make anyone change. She's going to feel what she feels- if she can't be calm, she can't.

It's about you being able to stay calm when she isn't. This isn't about enabling. It's you being able to manage your emotions. It also doesn't mean you don't feel what you feel- you will have feelings. If you are upset or angry- that is a signal to you to take care of yourself- leave the conversation, go get yourself together.

If there's a change - it's in the dynamics between you. She will try her "tools" but they don't work anymore like they did. You stop reinforcing some behaviors.

I think it makes sense to try to diminish the drama on your part. This is a skill you will take with you going forward no matter what you decide about the relationship. Even if you decide to separate, you will co-parent. The skills will help. If you stay together, the skills help.

BPD is a spectrum, the decision to continue or leave is very individual. I think at one point a person decides if the situation is doable for them, or not. It sounds like your T is skilled.

[FirstSteps]

Notwendy - thank you.  I am in the middle of messaging with her now from across the house and trying very hard to not JADE, and it's so good to read this.

She takes any hint of ambivalence from me and starts to say "I hear you want to separate ..."  Which is kind of true but it's also deeply hurtful to me that she can rant about leaving for hours, and I say a "it seems we are moving in a direction towards ..." and there is catastophe.

And you are right.  All I can do is change my response to this.  I'm trying this now by writing as I do not want to spend Father's Day locked in a room with her.    So I'll go back to my next message with this top of mind