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Author Topic: I miss the old times  (Read 1468 times)
Methuen
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« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2022, 07:45:08 AM »

Actually, when I became a mother, it's as if my mother started to see ME as the one in charge... She started speaking to me like I was her mother...
OMG, thank you for this gift.  One day, my mother (mid 80’s) standing small in the middle of her bedroom adopted her inner child’s voice and actually asked “will you be my mommy?”  I responded with humour.
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OnceUponAHell

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« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2022, 05:11:21 PM »

Speaking of hierarchy, Karpman's triangles and dealing with pwBPD, any suggestions how to gauge when to enforce boundaries / justice / ..., and when not?

Like, pwBPD is being manipulative or saying half-truths about me or someone else to an older relative (for comfort, validation, I don't even know why).

It is well within my power to clip her wings early and set the record straight... or let it slide... for now.
- Setting the record straight might light her fuse and lead to a meltdown, self-harm, etc.
- Letting it slide might embolden her to think she has more influence than she does and/or make more people more miserable.

And sometimes it is hard to gauge - do I want to put her in her place to protect myself/someone, or is it because of some feeling of needing "justice", or ...  is it tit-for-tat childish pettiness?
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Riv3rW0lf
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« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2022, 05:19:29 PM »

Speaking of hierarchy, Karpman's triangles and dealing with pwBPD, any suggestions how to gauge when to enforce boundaries / justice / ..., and when not?

Like, pwBPD is being manipulative or saying half-truths about me or someone else to an older relative (for comfort, validation, I don't even know why).

It is well within my power to clip her wings early and set the record straight... or let it slide... for now.
- Setting the record straight might light her fuse and lead to a meltdown, self-harm, etc.
- Letting it slide might embolden her to think she has more influence than she does and/or make more people more miserable.

And sometimes it is hard to gauge - do I want to put her in her place to protect myself/someone, or is it because of some feeling of needing "justice", or ...  is it tit-for-tat childish pettiness?

It depends... Is the person she is confiding in interested in your version of the truth? Did she ask? How did you learn she was lying to her about you?

My thoughts are: people will do that they want to do, and will believe what they want to believe. Setting the record straight with someone who isn't interested in the truth could put you in the persecutor spot, her as victim... that is if the person she is talking to has rescuing tendency...

How much energy do you want to spend going against them, and how much energy to you want to spend on the people you love and can actually trust?
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Couscous
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« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2022, 09:27:40 PM »

And sometimes it is hard to gauge - do I want to put her in her place to protect myself/someone, or is it because of some feeling of needing "justice", or ...  is it tit-for-tat childish pettiness?

So it doesn't actually matter what your motives are. When there are drama triangle dynamics at play, any attempt to defend yourself, or set the record straight will result in your being seen as a persecutor, and as impossible as this may sound, you may find that it is YOU who are being excluded from family gatherings.

You will probably be expected to turn the other cheek, take one for the team and to be the bigger person in order to preserve family harmony, which is one of the major downsides of belonging to a family. If your family isn't toxic and you aren't the scapegoat, then this is probably going to be your best strategy.
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Couscous
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« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2022, 11:29:51 PM »

Yes, I don't doubt power structures exist, but I'm not sure stepparents sit at the top. I think your parents are separated too? Did you have stepparents? What were your experiences with that?

My step-mother was basically like a completely separate entity. When my dad was together with us she was rarely around, and to this day she has no influence. She is not allowed to ever complain about any of us, and pretty much is the lowest ranking member of the family.

Excerpt
and seeing how my brother also talks to me, asking me to validate his decisions, asking me for advice, when I am much younger than he is... I wonder if the power didn't shift toward me when I obtained my degree and became a mother... This is when I left the family system. The dysfunction and stress of it became too much. And I did feel like I was abandoning a child. So weird.

As the eldest daughter I was always a surrogate mother to my siblings, and was basically at the top of the family hierarchy and had more influence over them than my parents. My younger BPD brother got married and had kids before me, and for a time he was the "big fish in a little pond" that consisted of him, his wife and my sister, who lived in the same town. Then all of us siblings ended up moving to the same city and shortly thereafter I met my now H, which is what triggered all the drama. After I had my second child my brother wryly congratulated me because he said that I now outranked him. 
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OnceUponAHell

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« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2022, 01:24:26 AM »



Excerpt
It depends... Is the person she is confiding in interested in your version of the truth?
I was talking about cases that affect me or people close to me. I don't care what grand stories she makes up about her private affairs. Therefore, I hope that the person she is confiding in cares about the "truth"?

Like, pwBPD lied why I don't meet my cousin more often. Her MIL and others noticed that, because we ask about each other whenever we meet. After she split with me, I haven't met my cousin much. So when I met with my mom, aunts, family friends, and they ask me "How's cousin? Have you met often? How's cousin's wife?" I've had to say "I don't know. Haven't met them lately." And I even throw in a half-truths here and there, like "you know...  COVID", "cousin is, I guess, very busy at work". Similar excuses to what pwBPD gave me. I just wanted to move on and not have to address it before I know, what is factually wrong with cousin's wife.

Well, turns out, her version of the story was that
- I was rude to her and her parents (LIES? I met her parents once, years ago, and we had a pleasant 5 minute conversation. At no point during that meeting or after I was ever informed I had been rude in any way, either)
- I haven't at all reached out to cousin + pwBPD wife (I literally have texts to disprove that. Texts with invitations, reaching out and offering help with the move or transportation, congratulations, etc.)
- I haven't apologized (I didn't know I had done anything wrong?)
...

Excerpt
Did she ask?
I guess? Like, in this case, she asked why I don't meet with my cousin. The truth is NOT that I haven't tried reaching out to my cousin and making his wife feel unwelcome, that I am/have been rude and disrespectful to my cousin's wife and her parents, that I refuse to apologize, etc.

Excerpt
How did you learn she was lying to her about you?
Normally, from the people that she confided in (her MIL + one other aunt) or her husband (rarely, but when pwBPD is out of town, he is more responsive to shares more details). And, tbh, I don't care that she lies about her own personal life to my family. I let her tangle in her own lies in that regard. What worries me is the tall tales she sometimes spins about me. 

Excerpt
My thoughts are: people will do that they want to do, and will believe what they want to believe.
True. So far I have been pretty careful to never assume and accuse. Like, once pwBPD left town, I met with cousin, and after few glasses of wine, he said that his wife didn't like that another cousin's wife (at that time GF) was at her wedding, and was invited to join in SOME family photos. I still haven't tattled to anyone, because... petty, insecure,weird, and not a reason to split and hate on someone for years, but also very irrational, too hard to explain, and I have no solid proof.
 
So, I tend to ask, listen and I give my side of the story if something doesn't match, and I have factual 1st had information. I try to keep a calm demeanor, but also letting them know how puzzled and confused I am about certain accusations.
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OnceUponAHell

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Posts: 16


« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2022, 01:43:22 AM »

Excerpt
So it doesn't actually matter what your motives are. When there are drama triangle dynamics at play, any attempt to defend yourself, or set the record straight will result in your being seen as a persecutor, and as impossible as this may sound, you may find that it is YOU who are being excluded from family gatherings.

At this point, I am myself occasionally excluding myself from family gatherings. And, there is a less of them. For several reasons, including her avoiding certain people, me having no enthusiasm to organize anything with her being included, some other relatives knowing about "the tension", etc.

Excerpt
You will probably be expected to turn the other cheek, take one for the team and to be the bigger person in order to preserve family harmony, which is one of the major downsides of belonging to a family.

So far, the only people that know about her (official) pwBPD is me, cousin and MAYBE cousin's parents. A small part of me wants to confide in the gossipiest aunt about her BPD, so I don't get guilt tripped by people that only see the tip of the iceberg to "reach out to her and somehow cheer her up because (her cat is sick or something)", "pwBPD is having a hard time at work, is feeling down".

Like, No. I don't have to turn the other cheek, reach out, and try to cheer her up because "cousin's wife is very upset since (one of many reason)". She is a manipulative, lying, 2-faced b... witch, that with increasing frequency blows up at my cousin, self-harms and threatens suicide, sometimes for the most irrational things, like another cousin's now-wife being at their wedding X years ago, some aunt didn't appreciate her gift enough compared to someone else's, my cousin "siding with me" by claiming he doesn't remember me ever being rude, etc. Like, she needs help, not the other cheek.

But... I know I shouldn't. I won't. For now.
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Couscous
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« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2022, 01:27:40 PM »

So far, the only people that know about her (official) pwBPD is me, cousin and MAYBE cousin's parents. A small part of me wants to confide in the gossipiest aunt about her BPD

I can almost guarantee you that if word gets out that she has BPD this would actually have the opposite effect of what you are hoping. The Rescuers will go into overdrive and there will be even more guilt tripping of you to be compassionate and supportive.

I would be extremely surprised if they would decide to start shunning her or exclude her from family gatherings on the basis of her diagnosis, especially since it doesn't sound like she has her meltdowns during family gatherings.
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OnceUponAHell

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« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2022, 02:37:25 PM »

I guess I wouldn't mind the requests for compassion as long as we all know about her crazy irrational episodes and antics, and her abusive relationship.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2022, 11:33:23 AM »

It's different for everyone and there is no one right path. However, of the three people with BPD in my life, the path that worked best was to settle into a role as emotional leader and figure out what that meant.

Otherwise, you are leaning into hurricane force winds nonstop. Or, you become sheared away from the pack, which builds resentment and can make you bitter.

Your cousin's wife is probably on the severe end of BPD to be diagnosed -- it is much more likely she was dx'd with BPD due to suicidal ideation and self-harm. Some refer to BPD as a fatal disease because the suicide rate is so high. She likely has no real sense of self and times she stays home, she may be engaging in shocking degrees of self harm. Of course, the other side to this is that she is aggressive, both covertly and overtly, and that's the part you're exposed to.

It may be helpful to look at this way: your cousin needs you.

You're one of the only family members who knows she has BPD, and that gives you an opportunity to read and learn.

If someone had come to me during the darkest days of my BPD marriage and said, "I'm trying to understand what you're going through. It can't be easy," it would've meant everything.

It's definitely possible to neutralize BPD traits and their effects. It takes a lot of work -- the skills are not intuitive and must be learned. When you are in kind of secondary role, meaning you aren't the spouse, child, mother, sibling, there are other dynamics that can be very insidious and hard to manage. This is because your boundaries may seem contingent on the boundaries of other people.

If your primary response is to avoid her or not initiate outings because she may come, there's a good chance you'll end up seething with resentment, more than you may feel now.

In the meantime, regardless of what you chose to do, one thing that might work is asking some kind of validating question, to get people to reflect on what's happening rather that triggering you into a reaction. This is something you can do with the pwBPD, but it sounds like you may too aggravated by her at the moment (understandable). Instead, it can work with someone who is delivering messages.

For example, my husband was often a messenger and it drove me nuts. Once, he said to me, "SD25 thinks you're mad at her." I learned to say, "Huh. When she said that, what did you think?"

Maybe you're already doing this?

I also learned to say, "Let's encourage SD25 to come to me directly. That way we aren't falling into these he-said, she-said triangles."

Your cousin's wife's emotional age is likely arrested. With my stepdaughter, she can range as young as toddler depending on how insecure she feels. Your cousin's wife may be like this, too, since she is trying to integrate into what sounds like a big, close-knit family.

I hope this doesn't sound like I think it's easy, or that you haven't tried these things. For me, there is no real *winning* (you can't win a pissing match with a skunk) to these relationships, but you can neutralize some of the downstream effects that in my experience can be insidious. What works in most normal relationships can blow up badly when BPD traits are involved, injuring not just you but other relationships as well.

You may end up learning skills that work well in all kinds of relationships, and you could become a lifesaver to your cousin, who is probably going to become a shell of his former self trying to manage this as her spouse. 

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Breathe.
Couscous
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« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2022, 12:17:28 PM »

Something that has struck me about this whole situation is the complete absence of any leadership being taken by the older generation. Your cousin’s really parents should be seeking family counseling over this in order to figure out how best to support your cousin and to navigate this very serious situation. Sounds to me that everyone is just trying to bury their heads in the sand and minimize the problem, which must be so frustrating for you. Healthy families seek professional help for situations like these.
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Couscous
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« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2022, 12:21:43 PM »

Something that has struck me about this whole situation is the complete absence of any leadership being taken by the older generation. Your cousin’s really parents should be seeking family counseling over this in order to figure out how best to support your cousin and to navigate this very serious situation. Sounds to me that everyone is just trying to bury their heads in the sand and minimize the problem, which must be so frustrating for you.

Healthy families seek professional help for situations like these, and it’s not fair to you to be the only person in the family burdened with the knowledge of her diagnosis. Family secrets are never a good thing.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2022, 12:34:50 PM by Couscous » Logged
OnceUponAHell

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« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2022, 01:35:38 PM »

Excerpt
Something that has struck me about this whole situation is the complete absence of any leadership being taken by the older generation.

And there might be some action taken place. Very localized, and kept hush hush from the rest of the family. I could see my aunt not wanting the whole family knowing about the poor mental state of her daughter-in-law. And I could see my cousin's wife pleading not not let everyone know about the diagnosis (she has made suicide threats in the past).

Not sure if I was supposed to find out. I was probably just in the right time and place, and maybe cousin thought I already knew something or was about to find out anyway...
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