Need advice

[15years]

Hi,

We live in a semi small town but still I didn't see this coming.

I had a girlfriend when I was 14 whom I was involved with for no more than one month, so barely a girlfriend really in grown up standard. My wife previously believed I had only one ex girlfriend and it came as a shock to her that there was more, although those where really innocent relationships.

Now to the problem, S6 starts pre school today. Parents get information online, and I noticed that my ex is a special needs teacher who visits the pre school once or twice each month to determine the childrens need for special support.

I know this will upset my wife but not to what degree. I usually check the online information and pass it on to W, she has access too but she doesn't seem to sign in very often because it makes her anxious. So there is a small chance W won't know the name of this teacher as she will only be a minor character at the pre school. I don't think S6 will need any special education either so she will only meet him to determine his skill level I suppose.


I just fear the consequences this will have for the family. I know I'll probably handle it calmly but it's impossible to know what kind of crazy reaction W will have.

Is it a stupid alternative to try and hope that w doesn't find out?

[Notwendy]

The insanity in this is that it's even an issue. Most people have had some kind of teen age puppy love thing. It's completely normal. If people are still living in the same town they might run into each other. As to the special ed teacher- she might be married too and it's been many years now.

It seems that a lot of your issues with your wife stem back to your experience as a teen and you are still concerned about her response to that. You can't change the past, and you can't change her reaction.

But hiding it shows some kind of guilt/fear and adds emotional fuel to the drama. Telling her is likely to incite a reaction, but not telling her and having her find out later could prompt a bigger one as she'd then wonder why you hid it.

This seems like a no win situation.

[15years]

My main fear is that S6 will be caught in the middle of it somehow.

But In reality, it will probably simply cause me discomfort and stress. She will expect me to express myself in a way that I can't predict. On a positive note, it will take attention from other stressful subjects.

Another risk is that she will expect some action from me, but I have learned not to cave in to her urgency as easily.

I agree that keeping the information will only cause me anxiety and it will seem odd to keep the info from her. How should I go about telling her about this? There's no easy way to say it, even if this is a minor thing.

[Notwendy]

I think just tell her. But be sure you are in a safe situation and can get away if she becomes abusive.

Make sure it's a good time where if she gets upset the kids aren't upset by it.

"hey honey, I want to be completely transparent with you. When downloading the information about preschool, I recognized one of the names. The special ed teacher is someone I had a crush on when I was 14. We had a puppy love thing for a couple of weeks".


If she flips out, then she does. But I think your comfort level with this is a big determinant. If you are all guilty and weird about it then it seems like it's something to be guilty for. That's on you.

Don't JADE. Teen age puppy love doesn't need an explanation.

[BigOof]

Jokingly, if you're going to get yelled at for things you didn't do, you might as well do them and enjoy the fun. Go ahead, have an affair...we all know you're going to get blamed for doing it irrespective of reality, alibis, debunked conspiracies, and emotional reasoning not equal to facts.

[Notwendy]

Yup, what a way to complicate things.

But seriously, how much of this do you want to tolerate? You can't watch certain movies or TV shows, can't read certain books, can't buy a box of tea with a picture of a woman on it, can't have kissed a girl at 14?

[15years]

How about playing dumb:

"Hi, did you read the info pre school sent out? I think the special ed teacher could be my ex."

This was my personal response when I first read the message from pre school since she seem to have a slightly different official version of her name than I knew her by. I had to do a little research to determine if it was her. Re-stating my first reaction would seem sincere and not weird.

After saying that, her reaction will determine my next move.

[15years]

Yup, what a way to complicate things.

But seriously, how much of this do you want to tolerate? You can't watch certain movies or TV shows, can't read certain books, can't buy a box of tea with a picture of a woman on it, can't have kissed a girl at 14?

On a positive note, I'm getting better and better at not engaging in discussion.

Her latest thing now is that she is burnt out from the crisis I started. She is friendly about it but blames me (So maybe not friendly ). She wants us to relax until Christmas and not plan anything. For the coming weeks she wants to do minimum, only stay inside if possible. I'm quite sure she wants me to be part of that "minimum action" plan.

She texted me today:
"I think I'm sorrow-depressed. Which isn't regarded as a mental illness (:"

I didn't say anything about any mental illness but she implied yesterday that she might have ASD and said something about how she can't be borderline because [she isn't promiscuous/self harming] - (not her exact words but still).

Maybe what she's saying is:
"I have a lot of borderline traits but I'm too ashamed to admit it to myself and others."

[15years]

Jokingly, if you're going to get yelled at for things you didn't do, you might as well do them and enjoy the fun. Go ahead, have an affair...we all know you're going to get blamed for doing it irrespective of reality, alibis, debunked conspiracies, and emotional reasoning not equal to facts.

What a nasty thought

[Notwendy]

How about playing dumb:

"Hi, did you read the info pre school sent out? I think the special ed teacher could be my ex."


After saying that, her reaction will determine my next move.

I like that, but not the term "ex". "Ex" is an adult term that implies a seriousness to the relationship. I don't even consider a few week puppy love thing at 14 to be a relationship. People call someone an ex when it's a longer term adult relationship.

People tend to use much lighter descriptions for these adolescent experiences. Even "high school sweetheart" implies a longer relationship than a couple months. It's more like these things are crushes.

"Hi, did you read the info pre school sent out? I think the special ed teacher could be an old middle school crush"

"Hi, did you read the info pre school sent out? I think the special ed teacher could be someone I briefly dated in high school".

At some point, you just have to own it. It's a part of who you are. People bring their spouses and families to school reunions. Inevitably we meet the old "flames" from that era but we are adults now.

[15years]

I like that, but not the term "ex". "Ex" is an adult term that implies a seriousness to the relationship.

...

"Hi, did you read the info pre school sent out? I think the special ed teacher could be someone I briefly dated in high school".

Thanks, this is good. After that, I'll use my non engaging techniques and no JADE techniques or at least get to practice them on something I don't feel any real guilt about.

[Notwendy]

Hi, did you read the info pre school sent out? I think the special ed teacher could be someone I briefly went out with in high school".

That might work too. Honestly, it's no big deal and no reason to make it one. Everyone has those old teen crushes that lasted all of a month and were such a big deal at the time but they don't mean more than a cute memory now.

[Kayteelouwho]

Just another perspective...

Are you worrying about it because of W reactions and would she actually recognise her name or could you be trying to think ahead. ?

As yeah you may of briefly dated at 14 but are you stating she someone you dated then going to fuel the fear of you remembered her, does he like her  then all different things from one sentence etc...
does it have any importance to you?

it's a catch 22 but end of the day I think she might wobble from it any way you do things. she may also repeat the same thing over and over of her own versions of your response. just be honest to your self and be ready for any response.

I hope the rages are a bit calmer now.

And aww their first day is exciting that's a good positive  : )

[Notwendy]

She's likely to react. It's a no win situation. I just think she'll react worse if she finds out who the teacher is later and assumes it was something to hide.

So the boy I liked when we were both 14 ( who is now an adult ) during a few weeks puppy love thing doesn't live anywhere near me ( I don't even know where he is but it's a place we moved from so it's probably not near me). If he was near me and I might run into him at my kids' school, I think it would be strange to act as if I didn't know who he is. I'd probably say something like "oh gosh, I think the teacher is a guy I liked when we were 14" then probably laugh about the memory. 14 is so awkward.

[ForeverDad]

Could you treat it as No Big Deal?  What if W never notices?  And be 'surprised' if W sees it and overreacts?

I can see you're trying to minimize reactions but it seems this is also walking on eggshells.

[15years]

My wife knows her name because of my stupid confession break down last year.

Of course she looked her up online as soon as she knew.

The pre school sent out info online and also my teen age love interest herself sent out a short presentation of her and her work including a picture. Now pre school also started a whatsapp info group which W will check. The possibility of avoiding this issue is very slim.

W wants me to take a new lighter whatsapp profile picture because all the moms in the whatsapp group will think I look depressed and unhappy with my wife, inviting bored moms to flirt with me. That plus I need to confront her about my old crush having a role in pre school community adds up to too much drama already after one day of pre school


Time's ticking, soon it will seem weird that I didn't bring this up sooner.

Seems like it's impossible not to walk on eggshells but I'm trying to invite the no big deal idea to myself at least!

[Notwendy]

Are you really going to change the picture ? If you posted a happy friendly one they might flirt with you too.

[15years]

I told her about the pre school thing, I really did set the ball rolling and she went through the stages of grief all the way to physical violence in the course of two hours. The thing that tipped her over the edge was that I didn't say on demand that my teen age crush was (and is) ugly. I tried to tell her instead that it is not the kind of man I want to be. I guess that "high horse-attitude" was too much for her.

I went for a 30 min walk hoping that her shame had kicked in to the point of trying to win me back. Nope, she had a long rant in her. Back to physical violence again after a while, harsh words from me this time and another 30 min walk. Informed her by text both times about my planned return.

Really harsh reaction from a well meaning sharing of information. I knew it would be harsh, I was brave to not procrastinate and I tried my best. I wss suuper nervous. Even told her I was concerned about this causing her stress. Good experience to observe more neutrally from start to finish her inability to handle a shock(?) and how quickly she starts blaming me. I was prepared more than ever before but it wasn't enough to help me guide her through it.

That's my summary post discussion


About the profile picture... maybe.I'll change it, it's kind of dark and not a perfect picture even if I like it. I kind of promised her but that was before I checked that the current picture was fine.

[15years]

After this, more talk about how this is going to be challenge for the whole family, that there is a significant risk that this will break us apart if we aren't a stronger team than ever, etc...

My "ex" will get to know our son, she'll be visiting his pre-school group a few days per month for a year, it's not ideal for a jealous person. How do I "respect" my wife appropriately in a situation like this without letting it have too much of an effect on our lives?

My stress level is wearing me down. I'm feeling like an emotional wreck myself.

[Notwendy]

At the least, if you want to avoid this immediate situation, you may need to take the boys out of this school but the special ed teacher might work at more than one school. Since you live in the same area, probably the best way to avoid running into anyone you ever even had a crush on is to move somewhere far remote where you don't know anyone.

If this sounds extreme, it's because if your wife can't handle the possibility you might run into an old romantic interest, then how else to avoid that? I am not suggesting you do this. It's walking on eggshells and enabling to do this, but the other option, to see what happens may not be an acceptable choice for you. It's possible the special ed teacher is married or in a committed relationship, and isn't interested and it's possible she doesn't have any interest in you even if she's not.

IMHO, this isn't normal. People bring their spouses and families to high school reunions. Inevitably they run into the high school sweethearts. It's not that big of a deal if it's casual and professional and people have respectable boundaries. Somehow though, it's a big issue for you and your wife in several situations. I am not sure moving would take care of it for her but what other choice do you have other than to let this play out?

[15years]

True.

I hope I wouldn't have such a big struggle minding my own business in the midst of her feelings. I can almost handle rage, but the rest of the disordered responses are hard.

But I'm getting better and better at handling it.

[kells76]

Not sure how workable this would be for you in reality, but one thought that came to mind was to put the work back on your wife. You, after all, aren't the one with the issue with the special ed teacher, it's your wife's issue/feelings/problem.

I wonder what would happen if you told her: "Honey, I'm confident that whenever you run into her, you can signal to her that you and I are committed to each other and neither one of us is available or cares about past relationships. I have full confidence in you! You will do great at communicating our commitment to each other only. We are very married."

Now like I said, is this the right time in your marriage to say that, I don't know.

But the underlying principle is there -- your W keeps putting her emotional problems on you and trying to make them your problems. Declining to take up her problems and feelings, returning them to her, and being "positive" and "confident" that she can solve them however she wants, would be a change, at least.

Anyway, food for thought.

[Notwendy]

I agree with Kells- it's your wife's issue- let her meet the teachers.

The best way to let people know you have a wife is for her to show up and be involved. She's put it on you to change your picture, so to avoid women flirting with you. Well if you show up alone, someone might flirt with you no matter what picture you put up. The best way for her to show everyone that you are married is for her to be involved in this school, meet the parents, and the teachers.

So she finds out your teen love interest is the special ed teacher and gets upset - say " I see you are concerned about this. I think it would help if you met all our son's teachers and be the main contact person for them if they want to speak to a parent"

[15years]

Kells - very good suggestion, will give that a try, it's a whole new perspective that she will like and I may present it from different angles. At the very least it helps me cope to have something to say that could be constructive as a bonus. Instead of just listening to her disordered perspective or feeling trapped in no win arguments.

Last night, I thought I heard: "she has confirmed that she is single now". What she was actually saying was "[celebrities name] has confirmed she is single now". Well unfortunately I thought that I had to act quickly and not "play dumb" so I assumed she was talking about special ed teacher, it wouldn't be the first time she's researching her online.
So I answered her like I thought would be appropriate, and of course that seemed very suspicious to her and made her believe that I'm thinking about ex all the time now, wondering if she's single or not. Didn't turn in to a fight luckily. A quick explanation seemed to work but I was prepared to give up JADE if it would have become circular. Instead it turned into a long discussion about how this is going to be a tough year but that we can grow as a couple.

[Notwendy]

So I answered her like I thought would be appropriate, and of course that seemed very suspicious to her and made her believe that I'm thinking about ex all the time now,

You actually are thinking about your teen love interest a lot, but not for the reason your wife thought. You are worried about your wife's reaction to her and thinking about how to manage that.

It seems as if the conversation turned out OK though and that's good.

[15years]

True, I even said a version of that to her and she didn't freak out about it. Sometimes a bit of JADEing can pass if done carefully and being prepared to give up if it doesn't work. She was in a good mood though, I had been helping her with something before that conversation took place.

[ForeverDad]

At the least, if you want to avoid this immediate situation... probably the best way to avoid running into anyone you ever even had a crush on is to move somewhere far remote where you don't know anyone.

If this sounds extreme... I am not suggesting you do this. It's walking on eggshells and enabling to do this...

The discussion has moved on from this but I wanted to add that another reason a moving concept would fail is that your wife would just discover other traumas/triggers.

The old saying, "If it's not one thing, it's another."  My ex did that, if it wasn't one trigger, it was surely something else that became the trigger of the month or year.  She couldn't let anything go, not permanently.  On the other hand, she never did any therapy either.

The point is that even if you avoid this issue, there will always be other triggers.  While you can do much to lessen the impact, there's only so much you can accomplish on your own.  So much depends on whether she will seek therapy to address these behaviors.

[Notwendy]

Forever Dad is right. I brought up the idea of moving because it was extreme but also it wouldn't work because the issue is with her, not you, or the old gf or anything else you do or don't do. It would be the next pretty teacher, or movie, or book, or picture on a box of food, or picture you post.

[Cat Familiar]

She’s going to do whatever she feels inclined to do. This is completely out of your control.

What’s in your control is how you respond.

The common thread running through your posts is that you are afraid of her and that’s understandable. She has a history of violence toward you.

Apart from that, you are also afraid of her judging you. I get it. Being with someone like that for many years can really diminish your self esteem.

While you cannot stop her from behaving badly, you can, however, not let it affect you so much.

I’m guessing that showing signs of weakness may be what triggers her to behave aggressively.

What do you think would happen if when this teenage crush was mentioned, you said, “That’s ancient history. It has nothing to do with today,” and cut short any further discussion by saying, “I’m done talking about this.”

I’m guessing that you are trying to be too accommodating to her emotions, and by doing so, it opens a door for her to be even more abusive to her.

As others have pointed out, this is a ridiculous thing to be concerned with. If you give it energy by even considering there’s something valid to her emotions, it just gives this issue energy. Shut down the discussions. They become circular arguments that go nowhere and allow her to amp up her emotions.

[Confusion8]

If your partner potentially had traits then what they are feeling is the fear of abandonment possibly. I know I tend to have an overriding feeling  of hatred towards myself and undeservingness so if they are like me they are just scared to lose you so this can come out in different ways. At the end of the day this just shows how much they care and value you, but need to be treated slightly sensitively. How would you deal with someone in fear? Just try to be as reassuring as you can be both with what you say and how you act. Wishing you both all the best

[15years]

Our apartment is not too big and my home life revolves around our relationship. Maybe I have to slowly build up a network of hobbies at home. Not having much to do for myself leaves me feeling trapped when considering "shutting down conversations". I can clean, cook, play with the boys, read, but she's following me around and constantly engages in conversation. Sometimes she tires and leaves for the bed.

The hardest part of shutting down conversations is that she will only pick up another tool from her manipulation box. She can approach the subject from angles I'm not prepared for.


She wants me to write an email to the pre school teachers and explain the situation. That could be relevant because the situation might affect S6s time at pre school. Of course she would want to read it. Is there any way I can write a short and informative email without it being weird? And without mentioning that W is out of line.


Before that, she wanted me to write to my ex and tell her to leave us alone (without any previous contact or any problems having emerged yet). She spoke about how she will not say hi to her or smile to her ever.


I don't think this is fear of abandonment. Yesterday, she went on and on about how I'm a liar for not telling her this the first day I suspected it. Before that, she wondered why I didn't think it through before I told her. It's more a fear of humiliation.

[Notwendy]

That's completely out of line IMHO.

If I was in the special education teacher's situation, and the child of the boy I had a teen love interest in was my student, it would be no big deal as this is history. We were kids. We are not kids now.

Now, if I got an email from him or his wife, or one went to the school about it being an issue, I would think he and his wife were crazy. It would actually scare me that they brought this stuff up as I'd think they were going to be crazy stalkers or something like that. That teacher would not be able to work with your child- as she'd need to stay far away from all of you to avoid false accusations.

I'd also be upset because such an email might make the school question my integrity. They might believe that there was something going on and this would impact my professionalism and even my job. The school might fire me to avoid any trouble,

What your wife wants you to do could result in a lot of harm to this person whose only mistake was having a teen crush on you. It's vindictive and it's crazy.

This teacher doesn't deserve this. This is your family's problem. You don't get to enroll your kid in this school and harass the teacher like this. IMHO, you need to withdraw your child as it's pretty clear your wife intends to make this teacher's life miserable.

[Notwendy]

Also, to reiterate what Forever Dad said- taking your child out of the school only solves this one problem and it spares the teacher from your wife's feelings,  but it won't solve your wife's fixation on any love interest you ever had or any hint you might be looking at a woman- even if it's on TV or a picture.

Your child starting school is a transition into a much larger pool of what your wife might see as "potential threats". While she's fixated on this one teacher at the moment, she also worries that other mothers might "chat you up" and also will refuse to speak or make eye contact to any threat at school.

I am looking at this from the perspective of a mom who was involved in my kids' schools as a volunteer. Sometimes we did interact with the fathers over school projects, events, sports teams and even the fathers of my kids' friends. Thank goodness none of their wives made unfounded assumptions and refused to look or speak to me or sent emails to the school. The result would more likely be that the mothers will avoid you and not allow their kids to play with your kids to avoid dealing with people who act like that.

While your kids were too young to attend school- school age opens up a lot more opportunities for interactions with kids, parents, and school staff. Your wife had more control over the kids environments before they were old enough to go to school. Even if you moved to avoid any ex gf's there's still possibly pretty teachers and pretty mothers out there.

It's one thing for you to choose to allow your wife to act out on her jealousies when it only affects you,  but this new stage for your kids could extend her behavior to harassing others- and enlisting you to do it for you.

[ForeverDad]

Trying to straddle the Boundary Line by appeasing will only make things worse.  Appeasing your spouse in this way would be "completely out of line".  The more you look for ways to walk on eggshells the more you'll get lost in the weeds and miss the big picture.

In some cases we can try to seek a middle ground.  But as Notwendy pointed out, there are potential ramifications, huge negative ones, when it involves other people.

[On_the_Fence]

I think you need to rip off the bandaid.  Tell your wife the truth, get ahead of the issue, and reassure her that you have no lingering feelings for this teacher and that you will maintain appropriate boundaries with her.  That is your side of the street.  Whatever your wife does in response you can't control and you are not responsible for.  You can't live the rest of your life dancing around BPD worried about your wife's reactions every time there is a triggering situation.  I did that for 20 years and became very unhappy.  

Also, do what is best for your child.  If being in that school in that school is what is best for your child and your "ex" works there then your wife will need to learn to accept the situation.  I apologize if I am blunt, but your story reminded me of so many experiences I have had with my wife and I reached my max dancing around, never sure where I stood, and always feeling responsible for triggering outbursts.  After 20 years I've decided not to live like that anymore.

[coolspring]

I can understand your concern, in these situations either way you handle it could be wrong. I feel your anxiety about causing a blow up. While recuperating from a severe head injury, my HwBPD  ( age 70) took all of my old photo albums out of storage for me to look at to give me something quiet to occupy my time.Some are from 40-50 years ago and contain family photos that included my ex-husband. When I went to bed that night my husband started looking thru the albums. He then started raging, slamming things, turning the TV to the highest volume. Now mind you I was supposed to be in a calm quiet environment due to my injury. When I opened the bedroom door to ask him to be quiet, I saw that the albums were thrown all over the floor.He then started screaming how I have been fawning over my ex all of our married life of 39 years!

[Cat Familiar]

These types of issues are going to repeat over and over as long as you give them any weight. Even considering writing a letter is affirming that there’s something worth considering.

NO

It’s total nonsense. And as long as you support it, by even considering there’s any validity there, she will feel that she’s right and want you to do outlandish things that will make you, her, and by extension, you children LOOK INSANE.

You’ve got to cut this out. No more validating the invalid. Otherwise your children will become weird outliers in school and have lingering issues throughout their lives.

[Manic Miner]

Agree with others. This could potentially ruin the teacher (your ex) and make you and your children look like the family of Crazinaries. Don't do it.

[I Am Redeemed]

I don't think this is fear of abandonment. Yesterday, she went on and on about how I'm a liar for not telling her this the first day I suspected it. Before that, she wondered why I didn't think it through before I told her. It's more a fear of humiliation.

I think it's a product of enmeshment, and I will explain why.

I have the unique perspective of both being in a relationship with someone who was psychotically jealous and made ridiculous demands such as your wife does, as well as being the person who was as jealous as your wife is at one time in my life.

When I was much younger, I had many emotional problems that I now know came from undiagnosed CPTSD. I used to have extreme reactions exactly as your wife does- trying to control any and every aspect of my partner's life that involved the possibility of an attraction to another woman. It was a very deep seated psychological issue that stemmed from a very black and white view of a perfect, ideal love. It was a complete fantasy that stemmed from childhood trauma and it involved the idea that true love meant that any and all romantic interests before the current relationship were mistakes, invalid, and must be obliterated in order for the "true love" to actually be "true". It was very much an indication that my idea of romantic love was two people who were enmeshed, and there was no room for any attraction to anyone else- it was unbearable to me because my inner traumatized child was running the show.

This behavior continued through my twenties. In my thirties, I began to mature enough to realize that it was not normal, yet I could still not find a way to stop the emotional pain associated with it. Finally, in my forties, after trauma therapy, I was able to get a handle on it. I am not currently in a relationship now. However, I still think these irrational thoughts would surface if I was- I cannot control them, no matter how illogical, but the difference is that I recognize them for what they are and use the tools I have learned in trauma therapy to resolve them. They are my inner child still acting from a place of pain, but I am the adult who has learned to resolve them and not make them my partner's responsibility.

On the flipside, I had a couple of partners do the same things to me on a very violent and dangerous scale and it was terrifying. Controlling, demanding that I do ridiculous things to make sure that I cut off any and all male friends whether I had any romantic involvement (ever) or not.

I agree with Cat that entertaining this as an issue is validating the invalid, even though, as I said, I once was a person who was as emotionally disturbed over this kind of thing as your wife is. It is her issue to sort out. You are not responsible for bolstering her fantasy that ideal love means the complete rejection of any and all members of the opposite sex in order to solidify the idealized bond between you two.

Do NOT write the letter. Do NOT even entertain it as an appropriate action for the "situation". There IS no situation;  it exists only in her mind and it is complete insanity for her to expect you to address something that literally no rational adult would consider as an issue. It's another way of letting her control you.

That being said, if she has already been physically violent over this "issue", you need to put your energy into a safety plan. She does not get to physically hurt you because she cannot stand that you were attracted to a girl when you were 14 years old. You need to address that issue, because that really is a problem- you cannot live your life in fear of being attacked every time she demands that you split any other woman black and put her on a pedestal. Do you see that she is unable to recognize gray areas? It is possible to have had romantic attraction to a person years ago AND love and be attracted to your wife in the present. She can't see that. She cannot accept neutral feelings about former love interests. There can only be "I hate that person now, they are ugly" instead of "I have no interest in that person while still wishing them no harm".

[Notwendy]

Thank you I Am Redeemed for your story and insight on how this must feel. I am glad you overcame your feelings of jealousy. The "black and white" choices don't leave any room for other feelings that are non-threatening to a relationship such as sentimentality. I think feeling shame for caring about someone long in the past is also a rejection of a part of you but that is not one's own feeling. It is enmeshment when a partner blames you for your jealousy.

I think many of us here struggle with lack of self love. One needs to reclaim love for self now and love for self in the past and not allow someone else to shame us for who we are - now or who were were then.

It's also something our own kids get curious about in time. What were you like as a child, as a teen. They will begin to have their own feelings about someone else and ask you what it was like when you were a teen. Of course we don't share TMI with kids but we need to be able to connect with their feelings. If we feel shame for our own experiences, we risk shaming our kids too.

[15years]

I felt for a moment that an email to the other teachers would have been appropriate considering the alternatives. Your replies here was a much needed reality check. I fell for the urgency for a moment, AGAIN.

reassure her that you have no lingering feelings for this teacher and that you will maintain appropriate boundaries with her.

Shortly after writing my last post and reading the first couple of replies, I guarded myself up with this suggestion from On_the_Fence in mind. But she made it easy for me and dropped the email idea all on her own. I think she wouldn't have wanted to start drama at pre-school as it would have caused her great anxiety and shame. The email idea was just one in a chain of many disordered responses.

Now she's at a stage of calmly sharing her thoughts and feelings. For example she told me: "Am I right when I feel that all your previous girlfriends have been 'simple minded', as opposed to me who is intelligent. And you're not attracted to simple minded people?" - It's ridiculous. Any suggestions how to handle this when she's not angry? Changing the subject might work when she has delivered her message and received her validation, but not before that.

I think it's a product of enmeshment, and I will explain why.

...

That being said, if she has already been physically violent over this "issue", you need to put your energy into a safety plan. She does not get to physically hurt you because she cannot stand that you were attracted to a girl when you were 14 years old. You need to address that issue, because that really is a problem- you cannot live your life in fear of being attacked every time she demands that you split any other woman black and put her on a pedestal. Do you see that she is unable to recognize gray areas? It is possible to have had romantic attraction to a person years ago AND love and be attracted to your wife in the present. She can't see that. She cannot accept neutral feelings about former love interests.

Thank you for sharing your perspective. This is exactly the problem. In the moment it might seem silly to "refuse" to paint someone black to make her feel better, but somehow it seems important to be true to oneself too. And I understand that it works like a drug to her.

Do you think I should address this with her or do you mean I should address it in myself somehow? Could she at all be susceptible to change this thought pattern on my initiative?

[15years]

These types of issues are going to repeat over and over as long as you give them any weight. Even considering writing a letter is affirming that there’s something worth considering.

NO

It’s total nonsense. And as long as you support it, by even considering there’s any validity there, she will feel that she’s right and want you to do outlandish things that will make you, her, and by extension, you children LOOK INSANE.

You’ve got to cut this out. No more validating the invalid. Otherwise your children will become weird outliers in school and have lingering issues throughout their lives.

You're right, peoples minds are not designed to comprehend all the underlying factors when something seems weird. People assume things. My children's reputation and life could be affected even if they themselves would be totally normal.

[Notwendy]

It is possible to have had romantic attraction to a person years ago AND love and be attracted to your wife in the present. She can't see that. She cannot accept neutral feelings about former love interests. There can only be "I hate that person now, they are ugly" instead of "I have no interest in that person while still wishing them no harm".

It was a very deep seated psychological issue that stemmed from a very black and white view of a perfect, ideal love. It was a complete fantasy that stemmed from childhood trauma and it involved the idea that true love meant that any and all romantic interests before the current relationship were mistakes, invalid, and must be obliterated in order for the "true love" to actually be "true"

I think this statement from I am redeemed helps explain your wife saying things like "all your other gf;s were simple minded but I am intelligent".

While you ask how to respond to this, it's hard to have any control over irrational thinking. It may be time to just not engage in discussing this at all- and answer like "honey, I am with you now, I don't want to discuss the past" and a safety plan if she reacts violently.

[kells76]

This stood out to me:

I fell for the urgency for a moment

*******

she made it easy for me and dropped the email idea all on her own.

What you did (or didn't do) at the part marked ******* seems pretty important.

...

I'm with Notwendy here:

It may be time to just not engage in discussing this at all- and answer like "honey, I am with you now, I don't want to discuss the past" and a safety plan if she reacts violently.

I think I've said this before and I'll repeat myself: has it ever helped anything for you to engage with her about your past relationships? Was there finally a time where, after "just one more" discussion with her about your previous interests, she said "Whew, now I feel relief and can close the book on this"?

Would things really be "worse" in your relationship now if you had a firm boundary of saying what Notwendy suggested? (Or, a variation: "Babe, this sounds important to you. I will discuss it only in counseling if you truly want to bring it up. Otherwise, I have nothing more to say")

As others have said, engaging with her paranoia -- even to try to explain that she has nothing to worry about -- only "proves" to her that there's "something there".

There will likely be an "extinction burst" if you choose to stop engaging with her demands for you to talk about your past. If you can prepare for that, it would not surprise me if after she stops getting the engagement she wants via that channel, things die down (at least there).

[15years]

Hi all,

This issue popped up again in a dramatic, almost theatrical way yesterday.


All the kids' parents were invited to the pre-school yesterday, a way for them to show their world to their parents. We both went, but W was skeptical because she feels I suffocate her at social events, leaving her invisible socially. So, she was in a bad mood from the start, also because she feels I am too friendly with other moms. I commented to one mom the other day, that our boys have become good friends, she responded that her boy would be interested in meeting my boy outside of pre-school too. I responded positively to this but didn't switch numbers or anything like that. I told my wife about it of course, which made her very angry.

So, she was in a bad mood, but trying to be happy for S6. We were sitting in a sofa at pre-school looking at our sons sketches and different assignments in a folder, when I suddenly heard that the special-ed teacher, my so called ex, was in the room, it seems she has an office upstairs in the same building. I focused on acting like I hadn't noticed her, hoping that she wouldn't notice me, which worked, and a minute later she was gone. My wife had noticed too and was probably equally stressed, but for different reasons of course. She was whispering to me and sounded unstable, but we continued the visit quite normally. Before leaving, my son insisted that he wanted to show me the space upstairs, where they are allowed to go sometimes and play. I didn't meet the special ed teacher eye to eye, but I noticed that she was there, and my wife noticed too. W was walking up behind me hissing to me: "don't say hi to that ". I was so stressed I couldn't focus on my son, and S2 was becoming angry so I told S6 that we have to go now, and I went downstairs. As we were exiting the building, the special ed teacher came down too but we escaped her by a few seconds, and I thought that this stressful event was now over.

I was mostly fearing social humiliation this whole time of course. Any trouble with W could be dealt with later.

But my wife had other plans, because she was very angry. She wanted me to confirm that it was the right person, sort of identify her. I told her no I won't do that and asked her to follow me and the boys to the car. She didn't but showed up at the car when I had buckled up the boys, but she still insisted that I identify the special ed teacher, I again told her no. She told me that she won't enter the car before I do, but I ignored her. The special ed teacher was finishing work and walked off, so my wife went after her, practically stalking her. It was dark and rainy; I didn't know where they went but drove around the block looking for them. At last, I found my wife, she entered the car and told me "I told her off", seemingly proud but shaken/high. I didn't ask for any details, but apparently, she approached the special ed teacher when she was sitting down in her car. She had criticized her for showing up unwanted downstairs when the parents where there, but she didn't explain who she was, and the s. e. teacher had repeated several times that she didn't know who she was. At least she didn't say any nasty things about her looks or anything like that.

W insisted she did the right thing, because she is a natural diva and people should learn that, and nobody should "f#ck with her".

[Notwendy]

It would be interesting to know what the special ed teacher thought of that. Possibly she was quite shook up and reported it. At the least, she probably thinks your wife is crazy to go off to her like that.

What do you think ?

[Cat Familiar]

Agree with Notwendy. Wouldn’t be surprised if police show up at your door one day if this behavior repeats itself.

[I Am Redeemed]

This is the kind of behavior that gets people banned from places and gets restraining orders put on them.

[15years]

Apparently, she also told her to "leave my family alone!". Which is totally off because we have not heard anything from her in these three months, my son has never even mentioned her to us although he has participated in different tests that she has supervised. So, no direct communication with us yet, and no close relationship with our kid either it seems. Sounds ideal in these circumstances, right? Well now she surely will observe my son more closely, knowing his mother is this weird.

I wonder if I should do something about this or stay out of it.

I don't think people here involve the Police that easily. Even if it is uncomfortable, it's not illegal to confront someone you don't know.
I think they could possibly report it just to have it on record if more things happen, but at this point, nothing would be done about it.

I have a feeling this special ed teacher is a little insecure herself, my feeling is that she will not do anything about it more than seek support from friends.


The humiliation for me is the worst thing. And if it affects my children.


And I'm also aware that things are getting worse, so there are more to come surely.


Hadn't thought about this, but she has a tendency to confront people, but mostly on text message. She thinks all people are so flawed and everyone disappoints her. I told her yesterday that she sounds like one of those people who say that they only like animals, which made her laugh.

[Notwendy]

While I understand your first concern is for you and your family, what about the teacher whose only mistake was to have ever dated you a long time ago?

All she was doing was her job. She didn't even speak to you. It's parent night at school and out of the blue your wife accosts her like that? This was completely uncalled for and inappropriate on her part.

She may not involve authorities but surely she spoke to a supervisor. False accusations like this are not to be taken lightly.

Your wife has taken this "old girlfriend" think way too far, with you, and everyone else. It's one thing if you want to put up with her abusing you over that, but now she's done it to someone else.

IMHO, your part is to decide what to do about your own relationship. This action is on your wife. I don't know what the consequences are for something like this, or if there's any, but this is her behavior.

[15years]

What would you do in my situation?

I do feel sorry for the teacher - I have thought about contacting her and explaining, but that feels too risky, and possibly not even appropriate.

Also, it would feed directly into my wife's belief that I have sympathy for everyone but her.


What I think I really should do...
1. separate
2. divorce
3. have no responsibility for my wife's behavior.

[Notwendy]

Honestly, as a female, I see it from the teacher's perspective. I would say absolutely do not contact her. Any further contact from your wife or you would only frighten her more. If I were in her situation, any contact would prompt me to contact authorities.

Your wife has put her in a precarious situation. It's her job to work with the children at that school. With your wife's false accusation, she may not be able to do this, or enter your children's classroom without jeopardizing her job. Your wife potentially could cause this teacher professional harm. She's worked hard to gain her degree to work with children with learning issues. And now your wife has put this in peril for her own feelings that have nothing to do with this teacher.

This teacher very likely doesn't want contact with you or your family and may need to bring a supervisor with her when she does work with your child's class for her own protection professionally.

As to your marriage, that's up to you.

[babyducks]

From my perspective the chance that the teacher didn't report this to someone is virtually nil.

With the heightened levels of security concerns every where but especially around schools caring for vulnerable children I would suspect she is mandated to report to her supervisor or management.

I would also guess that some of this was picked up on security cameras somewhere.

My two cents is you can't fix this.   And that you shouldn't protect your wife from any consequences of her harassing behavior.

[15years]

Honestly, as a female, I see it from the teacher's perspective. I would say absolutely do not contact her. Any further contact from your wife or you would only frighten her more. If I were in her situation, any contact would prompt me to contact authorities.

Your wife has put her in a precarious situation. It's her job to work with the children at that school. With your wife's false accusation, she may not be able to do this, or enter your children's classroom without jeopardizing her job. Your wife potentially could cause this teacher professional harm. She's worked hard to gain her degree to work with children with learning issues. And now your wife has put this in peril for her own feelings that have nothing to do with this teacher.

This teacher very likely doesn't want contact with you or your family and may need to bring a supervisor with her when she does work with your child's class for her own protection professionally.

As to your marriage, that's up to you.

I can see what you mean about that. So there's really nothing I can do then? I don't see what I would have done differently either, if anything I did everything to prevent it. I'm glad I wasn't present or shamefully lurking nearby.

She's proud of what she did, and the episode ended me being painted black. She needs us to have the teacher as our common enemy and she is forcing herself into thinking I am on her side, although I have not given any indication that I am.


On a side note, she quite honestly shared her feelings yesterday about the sadness/terror she feels about life getting bigger and bigger. She misses her childhood when the world was smaller. Me having ex-girlfriends makes life feel frightening, wide and threatening. My boys having social lives of their own is probably threatening too. Me leaving her even worse. I think I have to learn to be aware that this vulnerable side of her exists simultaneously as the scary one.

Reminds me of the Waif-Queen-Witch theory.
Reminds me of the Billie Eilish-video "Hostage".

[15years]

From my perspective the chance that the teacher didn't report this to someone is virtually nil.

With the heightened levels of security concerns every where but especially around schools caring for vulnerable children I would suspect she is mandated to report to her supervisor or management.

I would also guess that some of this was picked up on security cameras somewhere.

My two cents is you can't fix this.   And that you shouldn't protect your wife from any consequences of her harassing behavior.

Knowing the local culture of my area, I would assume that she should report it to her supervisor, but that they won't do much about it other than have it written down in case things escalate. I have a session with my T at the DV-center next Tuesday, I will ask her what she thinks. I'm not sure security cameras are such a big thing here, I think you need very legitimate reasons for accessing footage. This wasn't a crime although it was inappropriate. The ball is more in the hands of the teacher, she is in the role of the professional and is expected to deal with this professionally, which means reporting it to her supervisor I guess.

How she will handle the continued professional relationship with my son is my biggest concern.


If anything, it would be a relief if there were consequences for my wife, but I suspect that not much will happen.

[Notwendy]

What your wife did isn't illegal in the US either. If she were to continue to threaten the teacher, the teacher could get a restraining order, for her own protection. That itself isn't a criminal accusation unless your wife were to violate that.

With a few exceptions, no professional can provide services for a child without parental permission. If your wife told this teacher to stay away from you and your family, she can't work with your child. Also the teacher can decide to protect herself and request to not work with your child to avoid any false accusation. If your child qualifies for special ed services, the school would need to assign someone else to provide it. My best guess is that the teacher could not have a professional relationship with your child at this point, although it would be no fault of hers. Schools here take parent complaints seriously and err on the side of caution, for their own protection.

If your tendency has been to protect your wife, I'd stay out of this or you too are a part of this behavior. She probably won't face legal repercussions but I think she's shown a side of her that the school will pay attention to.

[ForeverDad]

I have nothing more to add to the others' observations.  Your spouse went too far.  There will be repercussions, the extent is what's unclear.

What I think I really should do...
1. separate
2. divorce
3. have no responsibility for my wife's behavior.

"What I think I really should do..."  You've been on the fence for a long time.  Sadly, the typical pattern is it gets worse.  Probably it will literally blow up somehow, somewhere, sometime.  We know it, we can sense it looming.  You you know it too, and can sense it too.  Will you get in front of it or will you let it fester as it plays out before your eyes?

"Separation" in itself is not a solution, you're still connected to someone with serious mental health issues.  But as the start of a divorce process, it lets the court as The Authority make Orders that serve as a Boundary that she won't listen to from you.

"Divorce" is almost certainly a foregone conclusion.  The question is When.  Will you be dragged there unprepared, or will you Accept the risks now and take actions (plan and prepare wisely) before that option becomes moot?

"Have no responsibility" won't work, not long term, as long as the marriage is there to egg your spouse on... and you're connected to her.  This isn't going to end here.  If you take no action to stop (or at least address) this slow motion train wreck, from one perspective you'll be complicit in impacting a professional's life, perhaps forcing this issue to be addressed by the school and limiting what help your children can receive there.

And just distance from someone in your long ago past isn't a realistic solution.  What if you have to stop talking to the female cashier at the checkout lane lest your spouse get upset?  What if it's the female staff at the bank?  What if... You get my drift.  Any female that smiles at you may face your spouse's ire.

Back in the final years of my failed marriage, I faced that too.  My then-spouse got terribly upset when a young woman in the congregation in all innocence leaned over, probably greeting a child, and she raged and accused me of looking down her modest dress.  Then on the road stopping at a light she raged because I was looking at a (much older) woman crossing the street.  The distressing reality?  It. Doesn't. End.

Of course, even divorce is not a complete remedy, there will still be incidents.  But (1) it separates you from complicit responsibility and (2) it does permit the court to set some Boundaries of behavior (in the form of orders) that she won't obey from you.  Parenting will still be fraught with conflict but it ought to be better than the way things are now.

[15years]

This might sound absurd but I'm aware of it and I'm keeping an open mind, I think it's so easy to be biased.

What if the teacher came up with a fake work matter to visit parents' night just to show up, being curious and hoping to get energy from an interaction with me? Does that change anything? I assume she has all the parents contact details including my name, and she seem like the kind of person who wouldn't easily forget a name of a crush even if it's way back in the past. I wouldn't either. I wouldn't judge her for being tempted to show up or even showing up, because even if it would have been a little unprofessional, I think it's totally human.

Whatever the case, my wife's behavior was unnecessary, I'm just saying I wonder if I or anyone else is in a position to judge her behavior.

An alternative view of the episode:
1. Teacher shows up out of curiosity, no way she doesn't know her teenage love interest has a child in this pre-school.
2. My wife is expected to be nice and tolerate this although there are ulterior motives, which is to get some emotional reaction/interaction with me. My wife being generally sensitive to social situations, notices this.
3. W can't stand on the side and simply tolerate this kind of behavior and decides that she isn't a coward or a pushover and confronts the teacher who is trying to get energy from her husband.
4. The teacher is lying to her when she says she doesn't know who she is. It's not impossible that she would want to get attention from an old crush and would want to impress me having made a career for herself or impress me with her looks. I know I wouldn't mind impressing her myself. If my wife wouldn't have been there, I probably would have wanted her to be a little impressed by me too, I can't lie about that.



I know it's an overreaction, but still. You all know the somewhat dated but maybe still relevant cliché of a women who is flirting with a married man and acts innocent when confronted. Who am I to take the side of the other woman in this case? My wife not trusting me would of course be an issue here, but I can't judge her for that either. For better or worse, I am an easy-to-impress kind of man even if I don't show it extrovertly and most wives wouldn't appreciate that in a husband. However, it's also a quality to easily like people, soI don't judge myself for it.

I have been quite successful at staying neutral and have even managed to make her understand why I personally think it's more effective to be polite whatever motive others have. But this is based on my personality, and a quality of mine, a way to feel empowered. If politeness makes my wife feel weak, what options does she have in a situation where someone is flirting with her husband? Being direct and honest makes her feel empowered, so what would you have suggested she would do?


My conclusion now is that I do understand everyone in this situation, there are varying personalities at play here. My wife shouldn't have picked a fight with the teacher because of the professional nature of the relationship, and I hope this doesn't affect the children. But knowing my wife, the option to let it go would have fueled her anger.



I'm not naive, I know this specific incident might be one in a chain of incidents and looking back, this might be a turning point for the worse. Also, I have been listening to this all weekend and the more I listen the more I start seeing her view clearer than mine, which is a standard development in our debates.

[Notwendy]

Did your wife come up with this theory that the teacher showed up on purpose because of you or did you come up with it?

[15years]

Did your wife come up with this theory that the teacher showed up on purpose because of you or did you come up with it?

My wife did of course But it could still be the case. My wife's behavior was affected by her disorder, that's clear. But what if she's correct in her reading of the situation? I think she could be.

[Notwendy]

Here's probably more reality.

The teacher showed up at parent's night at school because it's her job.

You two went out at age 14 and she could care less about that now.

Your wife is justifying her behavior.

What should a wife do if someone is flirting with her husband? Well not what your wife did. That's a boundary for the husband. Being polite isn't flirting. Talking to a female isn't flirting. If the conversation becomes obvious it's more than just being polite and talking to you - and it appears to have crossed a line, just excuse yourself from it and move on. Nobody has to cause a scene or threaten someone.

It sounds to me as if you are buying into some twisted thinking here.

[15years]

It sounds to me as if you are buying into some twisted thinking here.

This is more than likely, but the other alternative could as well be close the truth. It could also be that she's creating a narrative retroactively to fit the event and paint her in a better light. When it happened I could only see her as a crazy person.

But you're right, it doesn't change much either way. And maybe she's reading into situations correctly at the start but twist it into something more dramatic than it was. Like a princess story where the teacher was the nasty witch trying to steal the prince right in front of her. And the princess is the only one noticing what is happening. I don't think anything can stop her from viewing the world like that.

[I Am Redeemed]

Your wife's theory sounds paranoid.

Is it possible that this teacher came to parents' night on purpose just to catch a glimpse of a teenage romantic interest? Well, yes, theoretically, that is something that could actually happen.

Is it probable that this is what actually happened? No.

People with paranoid thinking can come up with ideas that technically could actually happen (like being monitored by the government or followed by someone). These distortions aren't as outlandish as, say, believing that an outside entity is controlling your thoughts. Paranoid distortions of thought are usually things that are actually humanly possible, yet are very farfetched and are not reflections of reality.

If you've ever read formfliers story here, his wife had some really paranoid ideas about him having secret lovers; I think she even once believed he had a secret love child that he put on his insurance or something like that.

It's more likely that your wife has some really paranoid perception that anyone who you may have had a slight romantic interest in, no matter how long ago, is still focused on you, still attracted to you, and would actually go to extreme lengths to have any contact with you.

She is the one who is overly focused on the former romantic interests. If that teacher actually invented a reason to come to parents night just to see you and then pretended not to know who your wife was, that would be an indication of some really unstable behavior. Your wife can probably imagine this level of unstable behavior because it's actually on the level of the behavior she exhibits.

Most people would have a hard time imagining that a special Ed teacher would invent a reason to attend parents night just because she found out that someone she was romantically interested in at age 14 was going to be there with his family.

However, you are correct in that it's unlikely that she will stop viewing the world like this.

[Cat Familiar]

Occam’s razor suggests the simplest explanation is the most likely one.

Wouldn’t it make sense that the special education teacher was there on parent night because she needed to talk to parents about their children?

Yeah, it’s ego gratifying to think she’d make a special trip to check you out after all these years, but how would she know who your wife is?

[15years]

I know it sounds crazy and it probably is.

No she was at work at the second floor, came down for 30 seconds and then went back up. To get attention from me? Maybe not likely after all.

Usually i snap out of the twisted thinking on Monday mornings at work but this weekend was special, a lot of monologue and little fighting. I never said i agreed on her view but minute by minute it's getting less acceptable to not agree.

[formflier]

If you've ever read formfliers story here, his wife had some really paranoid ideas about him having secret lovers; I think she even once believed he had a secret love child that he put on his insurance or something like that.
 

Hmmm...seems like the time to jump in here.

My wife has a unique Biblical name, it is rare that I ever hear of someone else having that name.  So...imagine our/my surprise when  a "militant breast feeder"  that happened to be in the same McDonald's playland as us called her baby by my wife's name.  My wife approached her and verified the child's name was the same...I focused on minding my own business and not checking out whatever was left hanging out (FF definition of militant breast feeder...shirt comes off, kid gets fed, no blanket... other one is left hanging out even though the child isn't using it at the moment)

Anyway...this was really early in my  "journey" with paranoia and I unfortunately "fed the monster" with denials and alternate explanations...essentially trying to argue my way out of whatever had come up.

Well..."sneaking the kid" on insurance became a thing because my wife "realized" that if the child had her name...and was my child, that I could "sneak" health care to this child...um..sorry, my child... Because "Susie Smith" was already on Tricare insurance.  So all we had to do is submit under than name and it got paid and...and...my wife finally figured out where all my love children were...how I was able to carry on as I did (because of course there were more she would find)

I could go on and on...I'll end this post here and be back with some thoughts for you.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I would encourage you to use the point of view of "am I feeding the monster" or "feeding the fire"?

A good follow up question is "what feeds the fire"?

Denials and logic that "squish" the paranoid theory will actually "work" for a short time but almost always the theory comes back bigger and worse after a brief period of time for the paranoid person to  "sort though" all the proof.

So...what I used to do and what you should NOT get anywhere close.

"Oh FF, I know you were doing the nasty with Blondie over there and now I've caught you.  You made her holler last Friday night, when you claimed to be out of the country."

Well...I would bring out "proof" that I actually was out of the country (brief military deployments) and essentially "prove" that FF and his magnificent mustache were in no way...like literally impossible to do what she "knew".    So..many times should would drop her claim, of often saying.."well ok then...bu you "wanted" to"  

Pause things for a week and the next "theory" was bigger...worse and would be harder to disprove.  But I  eventually would.


All of that "logic" was "fuel" or "food" that I was feeding to the monster..fire...whatever.

A better course of action

FFw:  Blah blah blah.. FF got private treatment from nurse blondie...blah blah

FF:  Oh my...

(option 1 use humor)
FF:  Hey...why not put on your nurse uniform and "treat" me right now..?

(option 2  hand it back to her)
FF:  That sounds important to you.   What can I do to reassure you?

(option 3  be shocked when shocking things are said)

FF:  I simply don't know what to say.  (said in shocked way).   I'll have to give this some thought.

Do you get the vibe?  

Also please understand she didn't get this way overnight.   So even if you grew a magnificent mustache like FF and was perfect in responding...this is going to take a long time to dig out of.

There are no guarantees  how "well" she will get, but I do guarantee that if you keep "feeding" it...it will eventually consume everything  in your world...NO GOOD OUTCOME from buying into..feeding...any of that.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I'll end my posts for now with "current status".

She has mostly recovered (that I'm aware of) and we have a fulfilling relationship.

Funny this thread comes up the day after paranoia...kinda shows up for the first time in forever.

Enter "23 and me".   When I heard my wife was going to submit the test...I internally groaned.  But also realized I had time to prepare.  Glad I did.

And...for the record, there is some "interesting" history in her family, lots of uncles and aunts aren't "full" brother and sister to her father  and while I think I know the real stories...I wouldn't be surprised if there is more  to know.  (Lots of messing around back in the day)

Anyway..I've heard before that she believed she was "bought and sold"  (like her parents bought her...or alternatively were paid to take her from her real parents)...but it's been years since it has come up.

Well...23 and me showed all the interesting history and near as I can tell "revealed" more shenanigans from a couple generations ago.  Well...she became convinced that  since xy and z are shown on the test, I can't possibly be "fully" from my parents, but I could be "fully" from these others.  (interesting twist..her parents refuse to take the test, as done her older sister.  The twin brother she has did take it..and...wait for it...the big REVEAL...psyche!  he is her real full brother...shocker I know)

Well...over the course of the day more theories emerged.  Note...I wasn't asked for advice...then finally she texted..

"what do you think?"

FF texted back:

"I wish I knew more about this kind of thing to better understand the possibilities and "likelihoods"...all new stuff to me"

See...no  "fuel" there.  Today (in person conversation) she kinda said something like "I wish I knew more about this" and I responded with something along the lines of "these things take time to understand".

And there you go...no drama, no monster feeding.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

One example of disordered thinking is making something about you. Most people are usually thinking about their own agenda- their families, their job.

Special education teacher has an office in the school building. You mentioned she mostly was in her office, and then came down briefly but then went to her office again.

Professional behavior assumes confidentiality. A student's learning issues are confidential. She isn't going to discuss a students' personal learning issues in a meeting in front of everyone or approach a parent unless she had permission to do that. She can address general issues to the group or to parents, but not discuss their child's specific needs. Did she even approach any parent? If she did, it would have been established with the parent. She would not have approached you, not because she's ignoring you or not remembering you but that she didn't have your consent to speak in that meeting. In general when someone who has a professional position with a client sees them in a public setting, they don't approach them unless that person approaches them first. You didn't and so she didn't either.

She was acting according to her professional standards. It was your wife's behavior that was out of line. Assuming your adolescent "romance" was so unforgettable she's still thinking about and she secretly planned to check you out is a pretty far out idea. More likely, she isn't thinking of you at all. Maybe she had some work to catch up on. If I needed to do some catch up work in the evening, I'd choose a night where other teachers and parents were there- because it's safer. She had all kinds of reasons to go there that night that had nothing to do with you.

Even if she did recognize you, if I were in her situation and ran into 14 year old crush with his wife, I would not approach him out of consideration for her. She wouldn't know me. She'd wonder how we knew each other. But if he spoke to me I would say hello and let him introduce me to her- and I'd go with whatever he said. Likely he'd say " this is my classmate from school" and leave it at that. We don't need to discuss it further. That's boundaries. The teacher was acting appropriately.

Your wife's obsession with what you did as a teen is way out of line.

[ForeverDad]

It was parent teacher night.  If the special ed teacher works there then she had good reason to be there.  Period.

I have been listening to this all weekend and the more I listen the more I start seeing her view clearer than mine, which is a standard development in our debates.

People with BPD are typically excellent manipulators.  They've had decades of practice.  You are letting your spouse manipulate you.  All weekend?  I would have been agreeing 2+2=22.

2. My wife is expected to be nice and tolerate this...

"Tolerate"?  Odds are, this is all in her head.  This summer I just had a school reunion.  I didn't recognize anyone.  Not that I had a girlfriend then, but that was years and years ago.  If anyone was pining for me it wouldn't suddenly be after all these years.  Of course, your school days were more recent than mine, but still.

Your spouse knows how to tie you up into metaphorical knots... very, very well.

If you're so easily convinced of her perceptions, why are you here?

[Notwendy]

My wife is expected to be nice and tolerate this...

Yes, she's actually expected to tolerate normal encounters like this because, she's supposed to be an adult and behave like an adult. What she thinks she's supposed to tolerate isn't happening. It's in her imagination.

[15years]

People with BPD are typically excellent manipulators.  They've had decades of practice.  You are letting your spouse manipulate you.  All weekend?  I would have been agreeing 2+2=22.
...
Your spouse knows how to tie you up into metaphorical knots... very, very well.

If you're so easily convinced of her perceptions, why are you here?

Can you develop what you mean by "metaphorical knots"? I have been wanting to call it something other than manipulation. Maybe this is it.

I would encourage you to use the point of view of "am I feeding the monster" or "feeding the fire"?

This is something I've been working on. Although I was beginning to believe her view at the end of this weekend, I didn't JADE or feed the fire that much, I mostly just nodded and said things like "It's impossible to know for me".

It gets harder when she makes it about me.

"You don't like eggs!" - How would you respond instead of saying "I do like eggs!"?

One example of disordered thinking is making something about you. Most people are usually thinking about their own agenda- their families, their job.

Exactly.

I think she often feel like nobody cares about her. She deals with that by turning it around, thinking that people purposely manipulate her into feeling like she isn't important, while they really do think she is one of the most important persons in their lives.

She can't handle being one in the crowd.

Your wife's theory sounds paranoid.
...

Thanks for commenting this, it was helpful to read last night.

[15years]

I had a session with my T today. She has worked as a school counsellor for 20 years before her current work assignment, and her professional opinion was that the event most likely won't have any repercussions, and that the teacher can continue to work with our child (there was no doubt about that according to her). However, she found it very alarming and unusual that my W actually involved my ex, usually it stays in the family.

She said that what could happen is:
a) the teacher calls the police, but that would be unusual.
b) the teacher talks to her boss who could be in contact with my W if the teacher wishes her to, also unusual.
c) the teacher brings this up with my W personally, but that would take a lot of courage from the teacher and isn't expected of her.
d) nothing, which is the most likely scenario.


Of course, from a more personal perspective, if my W has gotten the taste for this kind of behavior, it's easier to repeat it.

[formflier]

It gets harder when she makes it about me.

"You don't like eggs!" - How would you respond instead of saying "I do like eggs!"?

 

I'm going to push back on this.  

It should be easier...seriously, waaay easier.

So...let's examine what makes it harder in your particular case. (hint:  You assume you must answer)

"You don't like eggs.."

"Interesting... not sure I've ever thought about eggs much."

or

"I see...interesting"

or use humor

"That's eggsactly what I was thinking..."

But...under NO CIRCUMSTANCES...zero none never ever...let hades freeze  over should you actually address the content/question that "comes at you."

Note:   You will need to figure out (usually by tone and attitude), when  she is "after" something due to paranoia and when she wants to know if you are out of milk...because she is making a grocery list.  (in other words...answer the grocery list question, never...ever...answer when the paranoid lawyer puts you on the stand)

Did I mention NEVER?

And...is she going to freak after trying for an entire weekend to "get a rise out of you" and not succeeding...?  yep.  

However, once she realizes that you no longer will get up on the witness stand, that behavior will subside.  It will take a while.

And if you wait 6 months to "get off the stand"...she will freak more and it will take longer to get to baseline.

Said another way...this is your choice, not hers.  She can't help herself...you  can.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

My wife did of course But it could still be the case. My wife's behavior was affected by her disorder, that's clear. But what if she's correct in her reading of the situation? I think she could be.

It doesn't matter.

An expert on treating PDs wrote that the path out of having a personality disorder is learning to inhibit the use of old, now habitual set of beliefs and life strategies and replacing them with more constructive responses.

Codependent thought patterns and behaviors are also habitual sets of beliefs and life strategies.

Codependent behaviors can make a person with BPD sicker.

Her behaviors are more problematic; codependent behaviors are problematic in a different way, though no less problematic. You become two sides of the same coin. Both are unhealthy.

Are you looking for evidence that she is justified in how she responds to perceived slights or threats?

Why would that matter?

Are you looking for evidence that you deserve to be treated like garbage?

I mean that as a sincere question. Do you feel she is *right* for treating you badly?

Only she knows how horrible you really are, therefore you deserve what she dishes out.

Anything like that?

[15years]

I'm going to push back on this.  

It should be easier...seriously, waaay easier.

So...let's examine what makes it harder in your particular case. (hint:  You assume you must answer)

"You don't like eggs.."

"Interesting... not sure I've ever thought about eggs much."

or

"I see...interesting"

or use humor

"That's eggsactly what I was thinking..."

But...under NO CIRCUMSTANCES...zero none never ever...let hades freeze  over should you actually address the content/question that "comes at you."

Note:   You will need to figure out (usually by tone and attitude), when  she is "after" something due to paranoia and when she wants to know if you are out of milk...because she is making a grocery list.  (in other words...answer the grocery list question, never...ever...answer when the paranoid lawyer puts you on the stand)

Did I mention NEVER?

And...is she going to freak after trying for an entire weekend to "get a rise out of you" and not succeeding...?  yep.  

However, once she realizes that you no longer will get up on the witness stand, that behavior will subside.  It will take a while.

And if you wait 6 months to "get off the stand"...she will freak more and it will take longer to get to baseline.

Said another way...this is your choice, not hers.  She can't help herself...you  can.

Best,

FF

Very good. Luckily, I feel that I have been practicing not answering the paranoia/disordered comments and questions for the last few months and I have noticed progress in myself, so it's easier to take in your suggestions. Comments are easier, direct question harder, because I feel more guilty/fearful not asking them. But I'm practicing sitting with that feeling. Discussions that's somewhere between twisted and honest opinions is also hard to not engage in.

[15years]

It doesn't matter.

An expert on treating PDs wrote that the path out of having a personality disorder is learning to inhibit the use of old, now habitual set of beliefs and life strategies and replacing them with more constructive responses.

Codependent thought patterns and behaviors are also habitual sets of beliefs and life strategies.

Codependent behaviors can make a person with BPD sicker.

Her behaviors are more problematic; codependent behaviors are problematic in a different way, though no less problematic. You become two sides of the same coin. Both are unhealthy.

Are you looking for evidence that she is justified in how she responds to perceived slights or threats?

Why would that matter?

Are you looking for evidence that you deserve to be treated like garbage?

I mean that as a sincere question. Do you feel she is *right* for treating you badly?

Only she knows how horrible you really are, therefore you deserve what she dishes out.

Anything like that?

I can't decide if due to my experience, I'm allowed to completely invalidate everything that feels disordered (by excusing myself from the discussion), or if I despite my experience should consider what she is saying (listening and deciding if she has a point). The risk of listening is losing my sense of reality. The risk of not listening is being unfair.

[Notwendy]

I can't decide if due to my experience, I'm allowed to completely invalidate everything that feels disordered (by excusing myself from the discussion), or if I despite my experience should consider what she is saying (listening and deciding if she has a point). The risk of listening is losing my sense of reality. The risk of not listening is being unfair.

Your wife has some demeaning views about men, but these are also demeaning views about women as if women have some kind of ulterior motive at a school function rather than to discuss their children's education or that women don't have any boundaries when it comes to respecting someone's marriage and their own.

Reality is that most women go to school functions because they are interested in meeting their child's teachers and learning how their child is doing in school. Most teachers go to school functions in the evening because it is their job. They'd most likely want to be home doing something else but it is a work requirement to be there.

[15years]

My wife is afraid of the grown-up world and wants to interpret everything as being about people's emotions and private motives. Maybe because she herself is preoccupied with these sorts of questions or that she can never step out of herself and take on a role, which I think is required in some social and professional situations. Taking on a role all the time can become a problem, but to some degree, it's healthy and necessary. Does this sound about right? Being professional herself would be something very personal and an emotional act.

[15years]

Now an example of the paranoia, she is messaging me about my username on a website I've been a member on forever. She's thinking that my ex-girlfriends can find me and stalk me, due to them remembering my username on other old inactive websites. I don't even remember if I had that same username on those websites. Basically she wants me to delete my profile. Also because she thinks that staying engaged at this website is "holding on to the past" (her exact words).

This is the type of "ultimatum-driven" arguments that I'm often faced with. Other than ignoring the subject, what can I say?

Is a simple "i notice that you are concerned, but I don't see this as a risk" too engaging?

[Notwendy]

How long are you going to put up with this? It doesn't seem to stop and anything you do to placate/diminish it doesn't stop it.

You just got past her going off on a teacher who most likely could care less that she dated you at 14.

Now, everyone on social media is after you?

It is very unlikely that your ex girlfriends are after you.  This is distorted thinking that every time you even look at a woman, even on TV, it's going to lead to something. It may be possible someone might be after you but if they were, it would be your job to defend your marriage. It's not up to her.

We can't change anyone's thinking. Doesn't matter what you say.

[15years]

Would it be too validating to answer her at all? Is the best alternative to steer away from the subject. Or be quiet? It feels like what I imagine sitting down for coffee in a tornado would feel like

Please be as blunt as you want - When you say "How long are you going to put up with this?" - what do you have in mind?

[Notwendy]

Being constantly accused like this would eventually result in me being angry and refusing to discuss the topic.

But this is just me. I can't decide for you and what you want to do about it.

Adults don't behave like this, otherwise there'd be ugly scenes at every high school reunion. Sometimes there may be, but mostly when we run into old crushes and old friends, we reminisce a bit and then move on to what is going on in our lives now and nobody's marriages are threatened.

[15years]

I know all this now... the stupid thing here is the decision to go home to this every day.

I decide to stay where I'm feeling uneasy and stay away from where I imagine I would be at ease.

[GaGrl]

Being constantly accused like this would eventually result in me being angry and refusing to discuss the topic.

But this is just me. I can't decide for you and what you want to do about it.

Adults don't behave like this, otherwise there'd be ugly scenes at every high school reunion. Sometimes there may be, but mostly when we run into old crushes and old friends, we reminisce a bit and then move on to what is going on in our lives now and nobody's marriages are threatened.

This bears repeating...

Adults don't behave like this.

Mentally healthy people don't behave like this.

Your wife has developed a level of paranoia that is dangerous to her, to you, to your narriage, to your children. It cannot be sustained without damage to everyone in the family.

Your wife indicates she needs to change nothing about her beliefs and behavior.

Your only power in the marriage is what you can change about yourself and your behavior.

[ForeverDad]

Your wife has developed a level of paranoia that is dangerous to her, to you, to your marriage, to your children. It cannot be sustained without damage to everyone in the family.

You know it, we all know it.  What next?  Rather, what do you do next?

I know all this now... the stupid thing here is the decision to go home to this every day.

I decide to stay where I'm feeling uneasy and stay away from where I imagine I would be at ease.

Have you noticed how your dilemmas are worsening?  Like that frog in the warming pot, will you instead save yourself before you're cooked?

Please be as blunt as you want - When you say "How long are you going to put up with this?" - what do you have in mind?

Your question was concerning how to answer and calm the Beast.  Bluntly, she will not allow any wise solutions from you.  Anything you try, if it even works, is likely only to work until the next incident.  It is literally "walking on eggshells".  She exhibits no signs of improving.  This will only get worse.

The decision is whether you can get ahead of this, either that or let her take you down and destroy you.  Oh, have you noticed changes to your posts lately?  She has managed to crowd out posts about your concerns for your children and your parenting.

[formflier]

 
Is a simple "i notice that you are concerned, but I don't see this as a risk" too engaging?

NOOO!

The bold is "invalidating"  (that's bad!)

Do you see how that is a yes/no argument?

Stay far far away from yes no arguments.


"I see the concern..." is probably a good answer.  When she presses you to delete the websites or something do not say yes or no.

"That's obviously important, I need to give it some thought.."

Then stop engaging...just stop.

The fire will burn out if you STOP feeding it.

Best,

FF

[Riv3rW0lf]

Oh, have you noticed changes to your posts lately?  She has managed to crowd out posts about your concerns for your children and your parenting.

This bears repeating.

Also, I would trust the wisdom of Formflier, who, as per his own description, has an epic mustache (I have to say I read most of his posts now with the voice of Sam Elliott since I've read his recent stories on another thread, am I the only one here doing that?). No but seriously though, I agree with him. You absolutely have to STOP feeding the fire and disengage from yes/no statements leading to her exerting control over you and bringing you down.

With any chance, this can free up space to start thinking again about the real victims and vulnerable beings in your family i.e., your children. They need you to be your best self. Cannot stretch that enough.

Have you given more thought on the PTSD aspect of yourself?

[formflier]

I wish I could get Sam Elliot status...he is like top of the mountain.

Naval Aviation Mustache!

Best,

FF



uhh...sorry for the Hijack...

Seriously though, when she wants to "put you on the stand"...just don't get up there.  That's 100% your choice.

[15years]

I'm worried about tonight. Based on how she acted yesterday and this morning before I went to work, I think this will be a bad night. Kids will be there, and they will be expecting us to watch a kid's movie and have snacks, like we usually do on Fridays. Last time which was two weeks ago was horrible. Trying to have a feel-good family event doesn't go well together with a dysregulated pwbpd.



I've been changing focus on my posts lately because I again think about and plan moving out all the time. Interesting that you have noticed.

I've been developing my communication with S6 lately, I'm more bravely and honestly talking about his mother's behavior. I feel like I'm on the right path, still careful not to alienate her, but also not hiding that I do feel that her behavior is negatively affecting the family, and I've been focusing on communicating to him that her behavior is on her, it's not anyone else's fault.



The problem with yes/no arguments is that no answer is hard to do. It's like I get stuck in her web, it's a no-win situation. Will try to remember this response tonight: "I see the concern... That's obviously important, I need to give it some thought.."

On a larger scale though, I know that separating us (and divorcing) is the only real solution. I have a new Therapist now who has a very deep understanding of personality disorders. She's helping me go through the practical and emotional part of a separation, so it's getting closer. It's insane how many free support options there are in a relatively small city in one of the Nordic countries. This is the fourth place I've visited, and they have all been really good. The only downside is that there are usually a limited number of visits, and with no option to pay for extra visits.

[kells76]

I'm worried about tonight. Based on how she acted yesterday and this morning before I went to work, I think this will be a bad night. Kids will be there, and they will be expecting us to watch a kid's movie and have snacks, like we usually do on Fridays. Last time which was two weeks ago was horrible. Trying to have a feel-good family event doesn't go well together with a dysregulated pwbpd.

What do you think will happen, specifically?

How can we help you and the kids to be safe?

[15years]

I don't know if there's a solution to this specific night. Maybe I'll just try to not loose my temper and not start to argue/debate or get on the witness-stand, so I at least stay emotionally sober.

Have been at home now for 2 hours, it escalated to verbal abuse (with a lot of hate) before she retreated to the other side of the apartment.

What makes this different than other nights of the week is that we're gambling with the kids feel-good time. It makes me feel even more powerless.

Long term, only solution is to stop trying to be a family. This is an impossible environment.

[kells76]

That's a good, simple focus to have for getting through tonight: focus on not "getting on the witness stand" and not "adding fuel to the fire".

You can practice in your head some noncommittal responses, like formflier has suggested:

"Wow babe... that's a lot to think about."

"That's really new to me... I'm going to think about that"

"I'm really speechless... I'm going to take time with that one"

"I see that's important to you... let me give it the thought it deserves"

And then stick to that -- no "ceding ground"-- and/or pivot to:

"I'm getting the kids some juice, want some?"

"Oops, I should put that laundry in the dryer before we start the movie again"

"How about I make toast for everyone for a snack?"

"I have to use the bathroom, I'll be out in a bit"

...

It can be pretty rote. Mostly this is just to help you have some different options to make it through the night.

...

If you did end up having to be in a separate location from your wife tonight to keep things safer, what are a few places you could take the kids too? Parents, siblings, friends? You don't have to decide now "yes I will do that", it's more -- think now, when things are a little calmer, of options you could have later if needed.

...

It is really hard when you would like the kids to have a good time with the family all together, but it feels like that won't happen.

[ForeverDad]

Having an experienced and proactive lawyer is so very important.  Strategies and brainstorming are essential, in addition to our practical insight and accumulated collective wisdom.  This and so much more is covered in William Eddy's Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder (revised in 2021).  Though you are in another country, this is an essential guide to help you and others avoid some common mistakes and pitfalls in our intractable divorces.

[formflier]

"That's really new to me... I'm going to think about that"
 

This is a good one.  It can be easily varied so it doesn't get stale.

"Oh wow...I see the perspective now.  Hey babe...let me focus on this some and get back to you."

"Goodness babe...I hadn't considered that.  "

Etc etc

Best,

FF

[15years]

"That's obviously important, I need to give it some thought.."

Then stop engaging...just stop.

If I don't intend to get back to the subject later, is it a bad idea to say that I will think about it? She expects me to come to a conclusion and return to the issue.

Example of a text conversation:
She: "You have to be prepared on how to handle things when entering a situation where you know there is a risk I will get jealous [talking about the parents night situation]! You need to assure me of your love for me in that situation!"
She: [a few more examples of my failures]
Me: "A lot to think about for sure. See you tonight, take care  "

What she wants me to say when I get home:
"Babe, I'm really sorry, I agree that I should always be prepared to assure you of my love when your feelings overwhelm you. I haven't made it easy for you."

[Cat Familiar]

If I don't intend to get back to the subject later, is it a bad idea to say that I will think about it? She expects me to come to a conclusion and return to the issue.

Nothing wrong with saying you’re thinking about it. You are doing that right now. You didn’t promise to come to a conclusion about it. So don’t bring it up. If she does, say, “I don’t know.” Or you can say, it’s confusing, you don’t understand, it doesn’t make sense to you (risky), etc.

Example of a text conversation:
She: "You have to be prepared on how to handle things when entering a situation where you know there is a risk I will get jealous [talking about the parents night situation]! You need to assure me of your love for me in that situation!"
She: [a few more examples of my failures]
Me: "A lot to think about for sure. See you tonight, take care  "

That’s a fine response. Kick the can down the road. Repeat as needed.

What she wants me to say when I get home:
"Babe, I'm really sorry, I agree that I should always be prepared to assure you of my love when your feelings overwhelm you. I haven't made it easy for you."

No no no no. Absolutely not. We say “Don’t validate the invalid.” You are not responsible for her feelings. She has to learn to manage them herself. You are doing no favor to her by trying to take responsibility for her feeling badly when you’ve done nothing wrong.

I suspect you’ve been taking responsibility for her feelings for years now. It only gets worse as time goes on. Stopping this will be hard for both of you, but enabling hasn’t worked so far, and it’s making things worse. Be prepared for more drama and outbursts, but hold firm and quit trying to take care of her reactions. She’s an adult and needs to manage that herself. And if she can’t over time, you will know that this is an extremely toxic environment for your children to grow up in and that will lead you to making a choice. Who do you want to protect? Your dysfunctional wife? Or your children? You can’t do both.

[formflier]

You need to assure me of your love for me in that situation!"
 

Yes...you do need to assure her.

However, I suspect that "assuring" her actually means...let me control your choices.  (which is a no)

Listen...it might be entertaining to grab ahold of "befuddled"...and stay there.

"Wait...what...er...babe?  I mean it sounds like you are making someone else responsible for your feelings...can that possibly be right?"

Big picture:  Don't buy into distorted thinking.

Best,

FF

[15years]

This thing with the special ed teacher/my teenage love affair is not slowing down. She's mostly trying to vent her feeling about what a terrible person this teacher is (she really knows nothing about her at all and they have never spoken to each other apart from that one time when my wife "confronted"/stalked her). And she is often angry at me for not effectively taking her side. She can go on about the special ed teachers poor taste in clothing. I mostly just nod and smile if I feel I have to.

I'm thinking this could as easily be something else... W has strong feelings about what kind of feeling people radiate. Male and Female equally, but with women there is also jealousy, so it gets more complicated.

Kind of just wanted to update and admit that I'm really struggling with this.

She has talked about possibly mentioning her concern about our son being harmed by the teacher to the other grown-ups working at pre school... She has a variation of disordered thoughts about this and it's hard to know what position I should take.


Of topic - she wants me to "wholeheartedly give myself to her", and if I don't, things will never get better. It feels as if this is just a new way of making me doubt myself, to make me feel that if I would only have done better, everything would be ok. I refused to tell her this when she was angry, and yesterday when we were about to fall sleep she was being kind and wanted me to say it (That I'm giving myself fully to her). She told me that if I do, she will accept me. I told her that I can't do it. She was disappointed and I slept really bad afterwards from anxiety, but I didn't give in to her kind approach which is a milestone! The reason I can't say it is that I know from experience that it will only be used against me later. Plus it really is hard to say sweet things that you don't really mean.

[Notwendy]

This thing with the special ed teacher/my teenage love affair is not slowing down. She's mostly trying to vent her feeling about what a terrible person this teacher is (she really knows nothing about her at all and they have never spoken to each other apart from that one time when my wife "confronted"/stalked her).

 W has strong feelings about what kind of feeling people radiate.

She has talked about possibly mentioning her concern about our son being harmed by the teacher to the other grown-ups working at pre school...
Of topic - she wants me to "wholeheartedly give myself to her", and if I don't, things will never get better.

I think I have to be as blunt as possible. This sounds delusional. It has no basis in reality. It's all in her head. I am not a professional so I will use lay terms. This is crazy.

[ForeverDad]

TWENTY years ago... My then-spouse complained bitterly about her coworkers.  Lowlifes making out in the parking lot, she even filed a complaint against the manager for mimicking her accent and HR (company based in our city) came out and had a big sit down.  She was so proud - according to her - she was vindicated and he got a ding on his record.  This was a manager she had previously liked, well, until she didn't.  About 3-4 years later we were separated and divorcing.

YESTERDAY... My ex was complaining endlessly how despite getting a promotion, nearly all in her store have it in for her, cursing, yelling, whatever.

Unless a person gets into meaningful therapy and applies it diligently, that refrain of complaints and demands - whether directed at you or others - will never end, no matter how much you appease, perhaps especially if you appease.

[GaGrl]

I agree with Not Wendy -- your wife is delusional. She apparently spends a great deal of time "in her head," creating story lines that allow her to justify her beliefs and behaviors. These stories and beliefs have no basis in reality and lead to bad behaviors.

[ForeverDad]

This is a disaster just waiting to happen, like that slow motion train wreck we discuss here.  We see it looming, virtually powerless but to watch it unfold.  She will not let this go.  But even if she did, which she won't, other issues would get triggered.  Anything and everything.  You need to be proactive.

We resist telling you what to do.  We provide information, education, strategies and peer support.  But with things already this bad and her determined to steam full speed ahead, it is becoming clear this is not a "manageable" situation.  Most of us, when it was this bad, had no choice but to exit the adult relationship and struggle as smartly as possible to maintain our parenting.

TWENTY years ago... My then-spouse complained bitterly about her coworkers.  Lowlifes making out in the parking lot, she even filed a complaint against the manager for mimicking her accent and HR (company based in our city) came out and had a big sit down.  She was so proud - according to her - she was vindicated and he got a ding on his record.  This was a manager she had previously liked, well, until she didn't.  Then it progressed (regressed?) to include my friends, my relatives, and finally me.  After about 3-4 years of my life getting worse and more worse, we were separated and divorcing.

YESTERDAY... My ex was complaining endlessly how despite getting a promotion, nearly all in her store (a different company of course, she burns bridges) have it in for her, cursing, yelling, whatever.  Same old, same old.

Unless a person gets into meaningful therapy and applies it diligently, that refrain of complaints and demands - whether directed at you or others - will never end, no matter how much you appease, perhaps especially if you appease because that is often enabling.

[kells76]

Hey 15years, thanks for the update. Good to hear from you again. Hope the boys had some fun times during the holidays (if you celebrate  ).

Glad you notice some success with not giving in to a different tactic your W tries. That is an important way to show yourself a new way of doing things -- you can look back at that moment and say, Yes, I can do something different that is healthier, and I will survive.

She has talked about possibly mentioning her concern about our son being harmed by the teacher to the other grown-ups working at pre school... She has a variation of disordered thoughts about this and it's hard to know what position I should take.

15years, this concerns me a lot. I join with Notwendy, GaGrl, and ForeverDad to be on your side, together with you, being really, really concerned for you and the boys.

I think I remember you mentioning that you are in touch with a counselor/therapist/DV center worker? Am I remembering that correctly?

15years, can you get in touch with that person, and tell them what you shared with us above -- that your W thinks the teacher might harm your son? And then let us know when you do that?

The reason I'm concerned about what your W says it that it says less about what the teacher may do, and more about where your W is at. Healthy moms don't come up with narratives about their kids being harmed.

Do you think you can do that?

[kells76]

Hey 15years, how have things been the last few days? How are the kids doing? No pressure, just wondering how you guys have been. Hope the New Years weekend was good (if you celebrate!)

[15years]

Hi, I read your replies a couple of days ago, it helped in not letting the feeling of isolation take over.

"She apparently spends a great deal of time "in her head," creating story lines that allow her to justify her beliefs and behaviors." - GaGirl, this is a good short version of the situation, this is something I have to remind myself about when I almost start believing her story lines myself.

"Most of us, when it was this bad, had no choice but to exit the adult relationship and struggle as smartly as possible to maintain our parenting." - ForeverDad, I've been thinking about this since reading your relpy.  I'm feeling more and more that I've run out of energy (is decrepit a good word?), which is making parenting harder. And also thinking about the emotionally demanding situations that the kids have to live through.


kells, thanks for asking, yes I celbrate the holidays The kids have been thrilled and S6 has really enjoyed being at home.

The thought that the teacher would harm our kid was probably just a "What if" - statement on her part. I don't think she really believes it. I'm not too concerned about her mentioning this to the other teachers and she would probably just come off as unstable, and she knows that too. If her belief were strong enough, she wouldn't care if she came off as crazy.

The last days she has mostly been going on about the last part on my previous post, the idea that I have to "Give myself fully to her" in order to unite us. It's hard to not start feeling guilty for not having been perfect. Makes me feel obligated to try more.
She has also further developed her theories about my ex's. She now believes that my very first girlfriend is an obsession of mine, maybe some sort of shame obsession on my part that I can't let go of... that I am somehow still so very ashamed of this ancient relationship that it makes me illoyal to my W in present time. So, like GaGirl said, she "...spends a great deal of time "in her head," creating story lines that allow her to justify her beliefs and behaviors."

Thanks also to Notwendy for your comment.

W has also been ruminating a lot about me not being able to accept that ALL women are angry at their men. She seeks out news articles to verify her ideas.
I think that if I could try out a healthy relationship, I would realize that women indeed are angry at their partners from time to time, but that it doesn't feel as impossible to handle as this.

[Notwendy]

15 years, many of your posts are about your wife's ideas and somehow you seem to be considering them, wondering if you need to merge with her, try harder.

It concerns me that you seem to be buying into her ideas.

Being around my BPD mother, she's also frequently sharing her thoughts and ideas. She sounds very convincing. But she's mentally ill and her ideas are distorted.

An aspect of boundaries is knowing what is true about yourself and what isn't true. Someone can say something to us and we filter it though this boundary. If I told you you had green feathers and webbed feet, and must be a duck, would you consider that maybe you are a duck? Does my saying this make it true. Can I turn you into a duck by saying or thinking it?

I hope your boundary is that you are certain you are not a duck. You would not consider it. You need to take this "filter" and apply it to the things your wife says about you.

Many of us here have stated that your wife's ideas are all coming from her own thoughts and feelings and are not connected to reality. It is absolutely not true that all women are angry at their men. At least not all of the time! .

This "giving yourself to her" idea is warped. It means having no boundaries at all, becoming one person with her and since you can't exist as a separate person, this means you need to BE her. It means not being a man at all because of her hostility towards men. But even if you voided everything about you, it would not fix her feelings. It will not stop her relentless hostility towards you.

We have said it before- these are the musings of a mentally ill person. But what about you? If you know better, why are you buying into it?

[15years]

You're right, I'm buying into her ideas on some level. I notice that as time goes by, I see things more clearly, but the slowness of the process is exhausting.

My wife's concern is often about love and sex. How about being an individual when it comes to sexuality. I find it hard to feel that it's ok to have my own sexuality without feeling like I'm letting her down somehow. If one important aspect of sexuality is that we are free to think and feel whatever we think and feel, what's left is how we behave. But when she tells me what is ok or not to think and feel, it gets really hard. A lot of her dysregulations right now is about her interpretations of things I say and do or doesn't say or do, or things I have said or done or haven't said or done in the past.

If what she believes is true, is actually true, I find myself in a tricky spot. I can't admit that she's right because it would spark an extreme reaction. In a healthy relationship, do people accept that their partner might be attracted to certain kind of people or have a sexual preference that they don't agree with? Maybe it's not meant to be discussed, simply respected on both ends?

[Notwendy]

In a healthy relationship, do people accept that their partner might be attracted to certain kind of people or have a sexual preference that they don't agree with? Maybe it's not meant to be discussed, simply respected on both ends?

I know from being married that thinking someone is attractive doesn't stop just because you are married, but doing something about it does.

As to seeing attractive actors/actresses on TV- they are chosen because they are attractive. So what? I can tell when my H notices someone on TV, he can tell when I do. Now, we aren't lusting over the TV set or anything like that. Sometimes I will laugh if it's obvious- and sometimes the producers have the actresses dress in ways nobody would dress for work and you just know they are doing that to gain viewers on TV, or the actor just has to take off his shirt a few times. Then, we forget it and focus on the story line in the show.

The past is the past. We don't constantly bring up old boyfriends or girlfriends and yes, we have run into them at times- school reunions or other events. It's not a big deal.

[formflier]

There is also "wisdom" needed when choosing how "accurately" you will communicate your exact feelings and attractions.

Especially when you know that it is likely to be triggering for some reason.

One theme I have noticed over the years is that "honesty" gets conflated with "accuracy" and with "kindness".

Let's say that you know for sure that your partner is self conscious about they were her belly looks.  And also that she knows that you like (are attracted to) a flat..hard tummy.  So...when one shows up on TV...or in person and your partner goes "what do you think of that?"

Well...saying "Wow..that tummy is way more attractive than yours..."   I think most people know to stay away from that.

But would you say "Nice tummy..." or "hard body" or anything along those lines? (hint...nooo)

Or would you say in a playful way..

"Want me to think about that or maybe I give you a squeeze?" and then be obvious about keeping your attention "on her" and not staring at or answering questions about whatever is on the tv/magazine/computer screen."

Said another way..."just don't go there" when they want to discuss the physical attributes of others or heaven forbid "compare" them to your pwBPD.

Best,

FF

[15years]

Update on this matter.

She speaks almost daily about my ex's (not just the special ed teacher) and she's justifying it to herself more and more as time goes by. She knows that almost everyone would find her perspective outrageous, but she shakes of that feeling with the thought that people are stupid and naive. So she sees herself as the smart one who has found the truth of humanity, which is - No one really accepts that their partner has ever had any romantic involvement with another person - but not many will admit it even to themselves.

So that's the foundation of any discussion of the matter - My take out from that is that there's simply no point in me saying anything to her about it, even if it's a direct question. Because she has the answers and anyone who says otherwise is lying.

The latest about the teacher is that she would like ME to put my foot down and somehow communicate to the teacher that I want her to leave my family alone (as you might remember, this is what my wife told her when she approached her last fall). Of course I won't do any such thing, I'm just sharing this with you. However, what I am actually doing is avoiding contact with the teacher. I have seen her one time this year and it would have been appropriate to say "hi", but I didn't... Because it feels so safe not having to lie when W asks me if I've seen her, and if I greeted her.

I'm not naive, I know that my wife is totally out of her mind but the amount of attention she gives this makes me feel uneasy about it. If she wants me to say or do something, she will go on about it at least until I've made compromises. I can refuse a few hours or days of coercion (depending on the intensity) but at some point I get so tired that I give her something that will make her stop. So I might agree to something like "not greeting her" as a compromise.

Well, pre school is soon over and done with and S6 will move on to the next stage which is at a different school, so we won't be involved with my ex at least until S3 starts pre school when he is 6 yo.

At this point I find it suitable to insert a quote from another topic, because I think it has to be taken into account every time I'm discussing my wife's thoughts and feelings.

You are thinking about this logically and it doesn't make sense, because (from my own experience this is how it seems)- the actual reason is emotional and the given reason isn't the actual reason(maybe out of fear that the emotional reason won't work) . So when you address the reason given, it doesn't really work because it's not the actual reason for the request.

Thanks for this quote Notwendy, I've found it helpful many times.

[Notwendy]

This situation is her current focus - it's her own feelings being projected on to the current reason. It's good for the teacher that the preschool is ending- because that makes it possible for the "reason" to not be her at some point, but since the "reason" is a projection of your wife's feelings, and a way for her to cope with them, this isn't a solution for her.

The issue is for you, as you are living with her and listening to her thoughts and feelings. How will you maintain your own grip on reality?

[15years]

The issue is for you, as you are living with her and listening to her thoughts and feelings. How will you maintain your own grip on reality?

I guess by removing myself from the discussion, but that's easier said than done when she doesn't "drop it" when I ignore the discussions (quite the opposite). Might be that removing myself from the rs is the only realistic long term option.

A more short term option is to have a mindset that if I feel myself questioning my reality, I can't make any decisions before I've had the chance to get some distance to the "alternative" reality.

[Notwendy]

I guess by removing myself from the discussion, but that's easier said than done when she doesn't "drop it" when I ignore the discussions (quite the opposite). Might be that removing myself from the rs is the only realistic long term option.

A more short term option is to have a mindset that if I feel myself questioning my reality, I can't make any decisions before I've had the chance to get some distance to the "alternative" reality.

I think your story resonates with me because I observed this with my parents. There's "reality" according to my BPD mother and then, there's reality. It's confusing because sometimes they appear to be the same. I think that is why "borderline" is named that way- not psychotic- which is removed from reality, but BPD is not always in accordance with reality.

It's difficult to hold on to your own judgment because it becomes a conflict when you do. My BPD mother shares her thoughts and feelings and tries to enlist us to agree with her- I think it's a way for her to feel reassured and if she's worried about something she does this.

If my BPD mother wants something, she can be very persistent. It is hard to say "no" to her.

[Manic Miner]

I think the new name that still isn't widely used fits this disorder better - Emotionally unstable personality disorder (EUPD).

@15Y I think you do need some distance. I began seeing my own self only after living apart for several months (like 6-7). What NotWendy said, their truth and The truth is sometimes in-sync, but most of the time it isn't and is detrimental to our own. Especially evident if your empathy is strong or you cared too much.

My ex texted me walls when she felt bad just 2 weeks ago. She wrote one at 1am and then another one at 4am. It was full of spite, malice, sadness, anger and feeling sorry for herself. I felt sorry for her too. But none of that hit me.

Next day I called her and told her I'm fine if I'm not her type anymore. And that it's ok to vent, to write in her notebook or elsewhere *everything* that hurts her. But to remember when she talks or writes to another human being - it affects that person. Should be mindful of that at least. She remained silent. I think she did get my point, but anyhow, I no longer care that much. Just year ago I'd be a complete mess. Two years ago I'd beg her to forgive me no matter what.

[15years]

Next day I called her and told her I'm fine if I'm not her type anymore. And that it's ok to vent, to write in her notebook or elsewhere *everything* that hurts her. But to remember when she talks or writes to another human being - it affects that person. Should be mindful of that at least. She remained silent. I think she did get my point, but anyhow, I no longer care that much. Just year ago I'd be a complete mess. Two years ago I'd beg her to forgive me no matter what.

This is my development too. But I have moments when I feel very fragile and have an intense feeling that there isn't any safe space to return to really, except my own mind.  I mean, compared to before, when the hope of a safe place was for her to not be angry/sad and to see her smile at me. My anxiety gone in an instant, and back in an instant I guess. Now it's more even and not as easily affected.