Do Beta Blockers Help w/ BPD & past trauma? (Mending a Broken Heart)

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi everyone.  I haven't posted in awhile because I really haven't had any updates on my marriage.  It's been 8 or 9 months now and we've been largely NC for 6+ months with the exception of our kids and our finances, etc.  I have seen and talked to my wife several times over the past few weeks though and I felt like we were finally moving towards a basic friendship where we could be there for family.

Yesterday, I reached out to my wife because I had a splinter in my toe.  She's a nurse with laser vision and a steady hand, and I figured it couldn't hurt to ask for help.  I expected her to ignore me or say no, but instead she replied right away and told me to soak it in epsom salt, and she'd be by last night to get the splinter out.  Then maybe at 3PM, she asked if I could meet her at her parents house at 8 PM instead.  Sure, no problem.  But she called me around 6:45 crying her eyes out, saying that she would remove the splinter but the thought of seeing me gave her extreme anxiety, a migraine, stomach cramps, etc.

The conversation immediately changed to 21 years ago though when I went to shoot pool with a friend after work instead of coming straight home.  I didn't call her because I figured she'd be asleep, and evidently she was waiting up for me.  That's completely on me being young and dumb in an early marriage, so I apologized for the 100,271 time.  But then my wife really opened up how I've destroyed her self esteem after building it up early in our marriage, how I was never there for her and ruined her life, etc.  She also said that she can't stand to hear from me because she knows it gives me hope of us reconciling, so she panics and freaks out.

The conversation went on and on, touching of the horrible things I did to her over the years, how I never cared about her family, etc.  And with like all people with BPD, there was a touch of truth to everything she said, but from a very warped viewpoint that made innocent actions or mistakes appear like spiteful ways to hurt her.  Another example was her parents visiting us last year but I stayed in my home office watching a video or playing a game.  I came out and said hi to her parents, sat with them for maybe 5 minutes, then went back to goofing off alone.  That's "proof" that I have never cared about them or wanted nothing to do with her family (even though I took her parents on vacation with us at least twice a year, invited them over for dinner all the time, etc).

I am a Christian and I do not believe in divorce.  I also take my vows seriously, "in sickness and in health, until death do us part."  She's clearly sick, so even though I've let her go and accepted being single, I've patiently waited until we could sit down and talk to try to find friendship once again.  We're a million miles from a relationship and I completely accept that, I wouldn't want her back unless we could be happy and love each other the way we're meant to.  And I've faced reality...that will probably never happen.  I'm okay with that as long as she's happy/healthy.

My question here is what I can do for her- not for my marriage, not for me, but purely to help her get past all this pain and heartache.  She realizes she has mental health problems but refuses to talk to anyone but me about it.  Yet when she talks to me, her anxiety is through the roof and she has a meltdown.  Everyone else thinks she's happy, except when she's not, because they can't see the full picture our understand that she has BPD.  So others just see her have a bad day and can't realize she's been suffering for 8+ months internally.

She just can't let that pain go, I was so shocked when everything came out on the call yesterday, it was like we've been separated for a week instead of 9 months.  Is there anything I can do to start a real conversation with her?  Or to get her help another way?  

This really is not about me or our relationship at all, but my heart absolutely breaks for the amount of pain she's carrying and can't let go of.  It feels like I'm the only way she can heal, yet I'm the last person on Earth she can talk to, yet I'm the only one she'll really open up to and show her true feelings.  It's an absolute mess.

Edit/update- I DID NOT go to her parents house to get the splinter removed.  As soon as she told me how badly it hurt her all day, I told her I wouldn't come over.  I was very adamant on the call that I only wanted her to get better, to heal, and that her well being would always be more important than my own.

[Pook075]

Hi everyone.  I haven't posted in awhile because I really haven't had any updates on my marriage.  It's been 8 or 9 months now and we've been largely NC for 6+ months with the exception of our kids and our finances, etc.  I have seen and talked to my wife several times over the past few weeks though and I felt like we were finally moving towards a basic friendship where we could be there for family.

Yesterday, I reached out to my wife because I had a splinter in my toe.  She's a nurse with laser vision and a steady hand, and I figured it couldn't hurt to ask for help.  I expected her to ignore me or say no, but instead she replied right away and told me to soak it in epsom salt, and she'd be by last night to get the splinter out.  Then maybe at 3PM, she asked if I could meet her at her parents house at 8 PM instead.  Sure, no problem.  But she called me around 6:45 crying her eyes out, saying that she would remove the splinter but the thought of seeing me gave her extreme anxiety, a migraine, stomach cramps, etc.

The conversation immediately changed to 21 years ago though when I went to shoot pool with a friend after work instead of coming straight home.  I didn't call her because I figured she'd be asleep, and evidently she was waiting up for me.  That's completely on me being young and dumb in an early marriage, so I apologized for the 100,271 time.  But then my wife really opened up how I've destroyed her self esteem after building it up early in our marriage, how I was never there for her and ruined her life, etc.  She also said that she can't stand to hear from me because she knows it gives me hope of us reconciling, so she panics and freaks out.

The conversation went on and on, touching of the horrible things I did to her over the years, how I never cared about her family, etc.  And with like all people with BPD, there was a touch of truth to everything she said, but from a very warped viewpoint that made innocent actions or mistakes appear like spiteful ways to hurt her.  Another example was her parents visiting us last year but I stayed in my home office watching a video or playing a game.  I came out and said hi to her parents, sat with them for maybe 5 minutes, then went back to goofing off alone.  That's "proof" that I have never cared about them or wanted nothing to do with her family (even though I took her parents on vacation with us at least twice a year, invited them over for dinner all the time, etc).

I am a Christian and I do not believe in divorce.  I also take my vows seriously, "in sickness and in health, until death do us part."  She's clearly sick, so even though I've let her go and accepted being single, I've patiently waited until we could sit down and talk to try to find friendship once again.  We're a million miles from a relationship and I completely accept that, I wouldn't want her back unless we could be happy and love each other the way we're meant to.  And I've faced reality...that will probably never happen.  I'm okay with that as long as she's happy/healthy.

My question here is what I can do for her- not for my marriage, not for me, but purely to help her get past all this pain and heartache.  She realizes she has mental health problems but refuses to talk to anyone but me about it.  Yet when she talks to me, her anxiety is through the roof and she has a meltdown.  Everyone else thinks she's happy, except when she's not, because they can't see the full picture our understand that she has BPD.  So others just see her have a bad day and can't realize she's been suffering for 8+ months internally.

She just can't let that pain go, I was so shocked when everything came out on the call yesterday, it was like we've been separated for a week instead of 9 months.  Is there anything I can do to start a real conversation with her?  Or to get her help another way?  

This really is not about me or our relationship at all, but my heart absolutely breaks for the amount of pain she's carrying and can't let go of.  It feels like I'm the only way she can heal, yet I'm the last person on Earth she can talk to, yet I'm the only one she'll really open up to and show her true feelings.  It's an absolute mess.

Edit/update- I DID NOT go to her parents house to get the splinter removed.  As soon as she told me how badly it hurt her all day, I told her I wouldn't come over.  I was very adamant on the call that I only wanted her to get better, to heal, and that her well being would always be more important than my own.

[ForeverDad]

My ex too could not let things go that triggered her.  No matter how often I apologized for her perceptions she would circle back around eventually and bring it up again and again.  Finally I told her I would apologize only if I though the incident merited an apology - and only once.

I read an article years ago that described a beta blocker drug propranolol that can also help a person to stop reliving past traumas so intensely.  I've never heard it being applicable to pwBPD but I do know of a friend who uses it to reduce the impact of flashbacks of his experiences in the Vietnam war.  I've always wondered whether that would help pwBPD with their extreme sensitivity.

You can't fix her.  Your past close relationship hinders her from listening to you, it's a visceral triggering or overreaction and not much you can do about it.  Perhaps in small things, maybe?

[cranmango]

The conversation went on and on, touching of the horrible things I did to her over the years, how I never cared about her family, etc.  And with like all people with BPD, there was a touch of truth to everything she said, but from a very warped viewpoint that made innocent actions or mistakes appear like spiteful ways to hurt her.  Another example was her parents visiting us last year but I stayed in my home office watching a video or playing a game.  I came out and said hi to her parents, sat with them for maybe 5 minutes, then went back to goofing off alone.  That's "proof" that I have never cared about them or wanted nothing to do with her family (even though I took her parents on vacation with us at least twice a year, invited them over for dinner all the time, etc).

I almost spit out my coffee just now while reading this, because I experienced almost the identical situation with my ex about 2 years ago. You did nothing wrong, and neither did I. Everyone makes innocent mistakes. Events can always be twisted, warped, or selectively remembered to 'fit' a narrative.

In a healthy relationship, we can express hurt and make amends. With my ex, we never made amends over anything. No amount of me apologizing would ever change her narrative. No amount of effort on my part could convince her how much I loved her, that I forgave her past transgressions, and that I wanted to be with her forever. She blamed me for our relationship struggles, so I blamed me, too. I only see these dynamics in hindsight.

I wonder if the best thing you can do to "help" your ex right now is exactly what you are currently doing. Maybe you are giving her an opportunity to face some of her pain, make poor decisions, and *possibly* learn from them. You might be helping her by *not* cleaning up her messes. You aren't punishing her, either. You are letting her experience the natural consequences of life.

In a way, a sad irony here is that she clearly still cares about you. But right now it feels to her like overwhelming pain. So she's flipping between blaming you for her pain or avoiding you altogether. But you aren't causing that pain. It's within her. She can choose to face it and learn from it. Or she might choose to run from the pain. Or to numb herself from the pain.

Will she ever be "happy and healthy"? Maybe not. But you are giving her a chance to decide what "happy and healthy" means for her, while you decide what "happy and healthy" means for you.

It sounds like you are rooting for her, from a distance. And that can be a really powerful influence. Keep staying true to your identity and your values, and that will lead you down the right path.

My ex ended our relationship 10 months ago. In that time we have been in low contact, mostly through work. But we haven't had any real conversations about our relationship, the breakup, or any possible future together. I don't know exactly what's going on in her life, but I get the sense that things are chaotic as usual. There was exactly one moment a couple months ago where she (briefly) opened up to me about deciding to get sober. She didn't say why. She just said that she decided to get help, and that she was scared but hopeful. In that one moment, we were connected again. She was vulnerable and open. I told her I was rooting for her, and I meant it. Then the moment passed, her guard went back up, and we haven't connected since.

I am still so, so mad at her for all the nonsense that we endured over the years, and ultimately for her decision to end our relationship. A small part of me is still holding out hope that someday we might reconnect. But most of all, I am rooting for her. I always will be.

[Pook075]

My ex too could not let things go that triggered her.  No matter how often I apologized for her perceptions she would circle back around eventually and bring it up again and again.  Finally I told her I would apologize only if I though the incident merited an apology - and only once.

I read an article years ago that described a beta blocker drug propranolol that can also help a person to stop reliving past traumas so intensely.  I've never heard it being applicable to pwBPD but I do know of a friend who uses it to reduce the impact of flashbacks of his experiences in the Vietnam war.  I've always wondered whether that would help pwBPD with their extreme sensitivity.

You can't fix her.  Your past close relationship hinders her from listening to you, it's a visceral triggering or overreaction and not much you can do about it.  Perhaps in small things, maybe?

I wonder the same thing sometimes.  I know there's no "magic in a bottle" that could fix BPD, but she's stuck on a feedback loop of the worst moments of our relationship.  We were married for 24 years and dated two more, so there's tens of thousands of great memories there.  Yet she's stuck on 5 or 6 things that happen to every couple in the course of a marriage.

Thanks so much for sharing!

[Pook075]

I almost spit out my coffee just now while reading this, because I experienced almost the identical situation with my ex about 2 years ago. You did nothing wrong, and neither did I. Everyone makes innocent mistakes. Events can always be twisted, warped, or selectively remembered to 'fit' a narrative.

In a healthy relationship, we can express hurt and make amends. With my ex, we never made amends over anything. No amount of me apologizing would ever change her narrative. No amount of effort on my part could convince her how much I loved her, that I forgave her past transgressions, and that I wanted to be with her forever. She blamed me for our relationship struggles, so I blamed me, too. I only see these dynamics in hindsight.

I wonder if the best thing you can do to "help" your ex right now is exactly what you are currently doing. Maybe you are giving her an opportunity to face some of her pain, make poor decisions, and *possibly* learn from them. You might be helping her by *not* cleaning up her messes. You aren't punishing her, either. You are letting her experience the natural consequences of life.

In a way, a sad irony here is that she clearly still cares about you. But right now it feels to her like overwhelming pain. So she's flipping between blaming you for her pain or avoiding you altogether. But you aren't causing that pain. It's within her. She can choose to face it and learn from it. Or she might choose to run from the pain. Or to numb herself from the pain.

Will she ever be "happy and healthy"? Maybe not. But you are giving her a chance to decide what "happy and healthy" means for her, while you decide what "happy and healthy" means for you.

It sounds like you are rooting for her, from a distance. And that can be a really powerful influence. Keep staying true to your identity and your values, and that will lead you down the right path.

My ex ended our relationship 10 months ago. In that time we have been in low contact, mostly through work. But we haven't had any real conversations about our relationship, the breakup, or any possible future together. I don't know exactly what's going on in her life, but I get the sense that things are chaotic as usual. There was exactly one moment a couple months ago where she (briefly) opened up to me about deciding to get sober. She didn't say why. She just said that she decided to get help, and that she was scared but hopeful. In that one moment, we were connected again. She was vulnerable and open. I told her I was rooting for her, and I meant it. Then the moment passed, her guard went back up, and we haven't connected since.

I am still so, so mad at her for all the nonsense that we endured over the years, and ultimately for her decision to end our relationship. A small part of me is still holding out hope that someday we might reconnect. But most of all, I am rooting for her. I always will be.

I think what's helped me most throughout this journey is exactly what you just said- catching something here and thinking it easily could have been written about my situation.  It's uncanny how similar the patterns and behaviors can be, and it definitely helps to realize that the problem wasn't us...the problem is a disordered way of thinking and dealing with conflict.

You gave some great wisdom in there, I also walked away from the call last night feeling like she still has tons of love for me in her heart.  As much as I'd love to make things work, the more important goal is for her to be happy in her own skin...to let go of the rage and anger that keeps her trapped in misery.  If she could achieve that and still wanted to part ways, I'd be all for it because she could have a great life on her own.

I also echo your experience about your wife getting sober- we had three or four of those "moments" on the call yesterday.  At some points I was the most important person in the world to her and she bared her soul to me, only to lash out a few seconds later.  It hurt me so badly to see her hurting like that; I would do anything to "heal her" if I could.  It's just not in our power though, they have to be ready for change and make it happen for themselves.

Thanks for sharing and inspiring, my friend.  I was a mess this morning and frantic to do something to help her, but the crisis (for me at least) has passed.  Like you, I am okay with the marriage being over...I've accepted it and moved on.  But there is a part of me that will always love her with all my heart and soul, wishing her the best in life.  It's a really sad love story for all of us.

[cranmango]

As much as I'd love to make things work, the more important goal is for her to be happy in her own skin...to let go of the rage and anger that keeps her trapped in misery.  If she could achieve that and still wanted to part ways, I'd be all for it because she could have a great life on her own.

Well said. That is her battle to fight, not yours. I had a long conversation last night with a mutual friend who knows my ex well. She believes that a core problem is my ex's self-loathing. My ex does not love herself, and perhaps her greatest fear is that she is fundamentally unlovable. And when triggered, this fear turns to anger. She lashes out at those who try to get close to her, who try to help, who try to show her love.

I suppose deep down I always knew this--but it floored me to hear my friend lay it out explicitly. My ex cannot be in a healthy relationship until she finds a way to accept and love herself--to be happy in her own skin, as you say. Only then will she be able to accept love from others, and give love back in return. I don't know what it will take my ex to turn that corner, or if she ever will. But with some distance, I can see now that me simply pouring love into that void didn't fix the fundamental problem. In our best times, that love soothed her temporarily. Yet that void--the self-loathing, the insecurity, the lashing out--it's all still there.

At some points I was the most important person in the world to her and she bared her soul to me, only to lash out a few seconds later.  It hurt me so badly to see her hurting like that; I would do anything to "heal her" if I could.  It's just not in our power though, they have to be ready for change and make it happen for themselves.

...and that is the core dynamic, in a nutshell. She was in emotional pain, and in that moment she hurt you as a way to lessen her pain.

If I can highlight some of the good parts of your situation yesterday: You made a reasonable ask, with direct communication (remove a splinter). She agreed to help, but then became overwhelmed. She expressed her emotions to you. Recognizing her emotional pain, you made the very reasonable decision to not go see her. After the phone conversation, you took responsibility for coping with your own feelings, and you created space for her to cope on her own feelings. This is all good stuff.

There were lots of points here where the interaction could have gone poorly. You could have pressured her to let you come see her anyway, despite her panic. She could have insisted you come see her anyway, despite her panic. She could have not called you in advance, and instead lash out at you in person when you arrived. You could have sent her numerous follow-up messages offering to help her calm down, which may have only prolonged the hurt. I am reflecting on the many times that I made such (well-intentioned) missteps in my own relationship.

It sounds very much like you are feeling some urges to get pulled back into the old, unhealthy dynamic. But instead, you are making an active effort to create a new, healthy dynamic. In doing so, you are growing as a person.

[Pook075]

Well said. That is her battle to fight, not yours. I had a long conversation last night with a mutual friend who knows my ex well. She believes that a core problem is my ex's self-loathing. My ex does not love herself, and perhaps her greatest fear is that she is fundamentally unlovable. And when triggered, this fear turns to anger. She lashes out at those who try to get close to her, who try to help, who try to show her love.

I suppose deep down I always knew this--but it floored me to hear my friend lay it out explicitly. My ex cannot be in a healthy relationship until she finds a way to accept and love herself--to be happy in her own skin, as you say. Only then will she be able to accept love from others, and give love back in return. I don't know what it will take my ex to turn that corner, or if she ever will. But with some distance, I can see now that me simply pouring love into that void didn't fix the fundamental problem. In our best times, that love soothed her temporarily. Yet that void--the self-loathing, the insecurity, the lashing out--it's all still there.

I'm so sorry- my wife is exactly the same way.  One thing that really stood out from my call was my wife saying that she has zero self esteem and doesn't stand up for herself, so she always says yes to everything.  She just can't say no because she doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.  And I was thinking to myself, she walked away from a marriage the same time our first grandchild was being born, ripped apart a family, made up hateful lies to justify her actions, and completely destroyed me in every possible way.  But somehow, she's the poor, helpless victim in all of this?

That was my exact thought as well- my wife has a great heart, yet she's unlovable as well.  It breaks my heart for her because she's such a great woman, but she's so completely broken as well.

...and that is the core dynamic, in a nutshell. She was in emotional pain, and in that moment she hurt you as a way to lessen her pain.

If I can highlight some of the good parts of your situation yesterday: You made a reasonable ask, with direct communication (remove a splinter). She agreed to help, but then became overwhelmed. She expressed her emotions to you. Recognizing her emotional pain, you made the very reasonable decision to not go see her. After the phone conversation, you took responsibility for coping with your own feelings, and you created space for her to cope on her own feelings. This is all good stuff.

There were lots of points here where the interaction could have gone poorly. You could have pressured her to let you come see her anyway, despite her panic. She could have insisted you come see her anyway, despite her panic. She could have not called you in advance, and instead lash out at you in person when you arrived. You could have sent her numerous follow-up messages offering to help her calm down, which may have only prolonged the hurt. I am reflecting on the many times that I made such (well-intentioned) missteps in my own relationship.

It sounds very much like you are feeling some urges to get pulled back into the old, unhealthy dynamic. But instead, you are making an active effort to create a new, healthy dynamic. In doing so, you are growing as a person.

I know I didn't do anything wrong the other day, and it just reinforced everything that I've felt all along- she's completely detached from reality and can't see the world of destruction she's brought to everyone around her.  I prayed about what to do next, thought about if I should call anyone to tell them how unstable she was, and decided that it was pointless since nobody believes me anyway.

So instead, I figured I'd finally get some closure and explain exactly how her BPD has hurt me over the years.  I wrote a seven page letter talking out all the traits of the disease, showing where each has showed up throughout our marriage, and provided her easy ways to confirm that her own lies aren't real (like, I've never loved your parents- I told her to just ask her parents if I loved them).  I also pointed out her double standards- I do something and she sees it as an attempt to harm her, she does the same thing and it's just part of life, not a big deal.

I am hoping that my letter will be taken in the right light and maybe convince her to consider therapy, and I've also accepted that the truth in that letter will probably keep her from ever speaking to me again.  I don't care though, she needs to know that she's destroyed our family over nothing and she continues to spread that destruction over mental illness.  If she wants to get better, if she wants a shred of self esteem, then she needs to get some help instead of blaming everything in life on people she's split on.

I don't know if doing that was a mistake or not.  My intentions were good...to save her.  But I also showed her exactly how much hell she's put everyone through and I don't know if she can handle the truth.  I'm really hoping that it's enough to convince her to get help, or at least have a real conversation with me so I can convince her to see a therapist.  At this point, I really don't want her back, I don't want to deal with that pain and destruction anymore, but I do want her to be okay and I'd like to put our family back together again. 

I'm hoping for friendship for our kids sake, so I can see our grandson without her freaking out over absolutely nothing.  I know she's not evil, but what she's done the past 8 months feels about as evil as someone can get.  BPD sucks.

[Notwendy]

I understand the feeling of being demoralized when we have tried to help alleviate the feelings of the pwBPD that we care about. Truly though, we have no control over someone else's feelings, although I understand the wish that we could do that.

Happiness is really up to the individual. Of course we don't attempt to be hurtful to other people but we can't make someone happy either.

I wish my BPD mother would be able to be happy and to perceive and appreciate our attempts. That example of your wife bringing up one thing you did wrong decades ago- well we've all made errors of some sort along the way. If it had not been that to focus on, it probably would be something else. It's a similar feeling- I think my parents had good kids in general. We weren't perfect, we did some usual teen antics- but we got decent grades, didn't get in trouble, and yet, one thing wrong would somehow be focused on.

Our whole family was focused on trying to make BPD mother happy.

I think for all of us, we have to hold on to our own ethics, because if we fall short of our own expectations, this affects our own self esteem. On the other hand, we have to also seek out the boundaries of our own ethics. Are we honoring our parents, or our spouses, by enabling them to treat us poorly? Or is it by not enabling this do we take a stand for them behaving ethically? I think this is the space you need to decide for yourself and act according to what is important to you. If your values don't allow you to divorce, then don't initiate it. On the other hand, if she goes through with it, that is her choice and she can make her own choices.

You can take the high road here but you determine what that is based on your values. If she describes this differently, accuses you of doing things you didn't do- that doesn't make it true.

[Methuen]

I read an article years ago that described a beta blocker drug propranolol that can also help a person to stop reliving past traumas so intensely.  I've never heard it being applicable to pwBPD but I do know of a friend who uses it to reduce the impact of flashbacks of his experiences in the Vietnam war.  I've always wondered whether that would help pwBPD with their extreme sensitivity.

Holy. Holy. Holy.  I'm usually over on the PSI board but something brought me to this board - and this thread.  My uBPD 87 yo clinically frail and waif mom (who qualifies for but refuses to go on a waiting list for assisted living) just recently had one of her drugs changed to propanolol (for her heart and anxiety). I read this paragraph 3 times.  If you're really interested you can check in with me a few months from now for an anecdotal report of whether the propanolol helped with her emotional sensitivity.  So glad the karma brought me to read this - as it gives me a wee thread of some kind of hope...  So interesting.

As for the broken heart Pook, I side with others suggesting you are doing the best thing you can - which is giving her the grace to solve it herself.  Anything you do is temporary/bandaid/possibly enabling - she needs to do the real work to fix the original cause for that broken heart - which no doubt preceded the time when you two met.  

[Pook075]

I understand the feeling of being demoralized when we have tried to help alleviate the feelings of the pwBPD that we care about. Truly though, we have no control over someone else's feelings, although I understand the wish that we could do that.

Happiness is really up to the individual. Of course we don't attempt to be hurtful to other people but we can't make someone happy either.

I wish my BPD mother would be able to be happy and to perceive and appreciate our attempts. That example of your wife bringing up one thing you did wrong decades ago- well we've all made errors of some sort along the way. If it had not been that to focus on, it probably would be something else. It's a similar feeling- I think my parents had good kids in general. We weren't perfect, we did some usual teen antics- but we got decent grades, didn't get in trouble, and yet, one thing wrong would somehow be focused on.

Our whole family was focused on trying to make BPD mother happy.

I think for all of us, we have to hold on to our own ethics, because if we fall short of our own expectations, this affects our own self esteem. On the other hand, we have to also seek out the boundaries of our own ethics. Are we honoring our parents, or our spouses, by enabling them to treat us poorly? Or is it by not enabling this do we take a stand for them behaving ethically? I think this is the space you need to decide for yourself and act according to what is important to you. If your values don't allow you to divorce, then don't initiate it. On the other hand, if she goes through with it, that is her choice and she can make her own choices.

You can take the high road here but you determine what that is based on your values. If she describes this differently, accuses you of doing things you didn't do- that doesn't make it true.

I completely understand your perspective and appreciate it.  My mom, who passed 4 years ago, lived in the past full of regret, pain, and bitterness.  Angry her entire life for things that happened to her, and most of them were pretty small things.  Never diagnosed with anything but in hindsight sure looks like BPD or something on that spectrum.  Fantastic loving, caring mom...but always sad or angry over something.  It broke my heart later in life but she couldn't let the past go.

I see my BPD wife at 44 and it really hurts seeing her become my mom.  I know I can't help past giving comfort and guidance whenever she reaches out, and eventually I'll move on and remarry (she plans on divorcing me in August, which is fine).  I just hate seeing anyone hurt that badly, even a stranger.  This was my wife for 24 years and then a few more dating, so it hurts me pretty deep when she self-destructs and has horrible days.

[Pook075]

Holy. Holy. Holy.  I'm usually over on the PSI board but something brought me to this board - and this thread.  My uBPD 87 yo clinically frail and waif mom (who qualifies for but refuses to go on a waiting list for assisted living) just recently had one of her drugs changed to propanolol (for her heart and anxiety). I read this paragraph 3 times.  If you're really interested you can check in with me a few months from now for an anecdotal report of whether the propanolol helped with her emotional sensitivity.  So glad the karma brought me to read this - as it gives me a wee thread of some kind of hope...  So interesting.

As for the broken heart Pook, I side with others suggesting you are doing the best thing you can - which is giving her the grace to solve it herself.  Anything you do is temporary/bandaid/possibly enabling - she needs to do the real work to fix the original cause for that broken heart - which no doubt preceded the time when you two met.  

I'm glad you found us over here and thanks for the encouragement.  It is funny how life works sometimes and we just stumble onto something we didn't know we were looking for.

[Notwendy]

Interesting about the Propranolol. My BPD mother has not been on it so I don't know how she'd respond. I'm interested in how your mother does with it, Methuen.

[ForeverDad]

One would imagine that if there was a major benefit for pwBPD, that we would have heard more about propranolol in the past 15 years in the BPD community.  However, there has been occasional mention such as in this post where at least one professional has used it:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=354189.0

Here's my post from back then in 2007. Only the CBSnews link still works.  Maybe the Wayback Machine at web.archive.org could find the lost articles.

Post: Re: Truth of Molestation? on: September 19, 2007, 07:38:54 PM

Quote from: river on September 19, 2007, 07:19:04 PM
Somewhat recently there was a segment on one of the tv news magazines, like Dateline or something, that had to do with a medication that would alleviate PTSD symptoms in sufferers by somehow altering the impact of their memories. It was interesting and brought up provocative questions, as you can imagine.

River, I believe you're thinking of propranolol.  Here's some of my notes from last year.

On 11/26/2006 the program 60 Minutes had a segment The Memory Pill concerning the use of a heart medication, propranolol, to lessen the traumatic memories associated with PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder).  Currently it is in early testing stages.  Research indicates adrenaline causes memories to be stored more strongly and propranolol lessens the effects of adrenaline, moderating strong memories.

I wonder, could this be tested whether this moderates the symptoms and behaviors of Borderline and other Personality disorders?  Of course, not all causes can be identified and traced to early childhood traumas, but many can.  Could treatment with this drug, which apparently has minimal or no side effects, helped moderate the extremes of BP behaviors?

Also, some have expressed concerns that this is messing with memory.  In the interview the researcher responded that we routinely give pain killers to injured persons to lessen their pain, so how is this so different?  Thus far it only lessens the traumatic effects so they're more like normal memories, it doesn't wipe them out.

www.acfnewsource.org/science/memory_pill.html
Quote
To counter the harmful effects of stress hormones like adrenaline on memory, Pitman has been experimenting with propranolol, a drug commonly used to treat hypertension. Since propranolol blocks the action of adrenaline and noradrenaline, Pitman thought it might prevent memories from being burned too deeply in the amygdala of the brain. "We figured we could give people this propranolol to affect the memory before it gets laid down," he explains. Pitman is quick to point out that the drug doesn't cause people to remember things differently, just less strongly. "We would say it would more approximate a normal memory," he says.

www.cognitiveliberty.org/neuro/memory_drugs_sd.html

The 11/26/2006 60 Minutes episode was updated on 06/14/2007:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-pill-to-forget/

[Gemsforeyes]

This is an emotional and very interesting thread.  Very good information… and I understand how deeply we wish and pray our words contained the magic healing power our disordered loved ones are seeking.  

Toward the end of this thread, there is discussion about a beta blocker called Propanolol and whether it helps PTSD symptoms.  I believe I may have personal experience with a similar medication… “Metoprolol”

For a variety of reasons, I was diagnosed with complex PTSD several years back.  As part of all of that, I’d had terror nightmares for years… since childhood.  I had been on anxiety meds for years, and then began using a CES (cranial electric stimulation) machine for anxiety in 2018, prescribed by my T.  I got off the anxiety meds in late 2018.  My anxiety had always been pretty well managed.

At any rate, in summer of 2021, a series of family events occurred and I felt physically off.  My doc prescribed a blood pressure med and then he prescribed Metoprolol because my heart was racing.  My nightmares continued periodically but I didn’t tell anyone.

About 7 months later in February 2022,I had a medical emergency in the middle of the night.  Passed out on the floor and was in and out of consciousness for about 9 hours.  I had no access to a phone (live alone) and experienced hours of the most realistic and terrifying “dreams”.  I sort of begged GOD for death because of the pain.

When I regained consciousness and was able to reach family, an ambulance came and I had emergency, life-saving surgery a few hours later.  I just had another surgery to fix something that went wrong, but that’s irrelevant.

The bottom line is that since that night, I have NEVER had another terror nightmare.  Reading this thread is the first time I’ve EVER heard of a connection between beta blockers and PTSD.  I am a believer…. Not only because of the complex PTSD symptoms, but also the sadness.

This has been a really difficult period of time.  Lots of struggles - physical, financial and emotional.  But somehow I still feel motivated to put one foot in front of the other.  And attempt to walk at my usual pace.   Maybe it’s the little pill.  Maybe not.

But just like everything else, if you don’t go in you can’t find out.

Warmly,
Gems

[ForeverDad]

Well, live another day and learn something.  I've taken carvedilol for the past 3 years (heart problems) and never realized it was a beta-blocker.  Evidently there are a variety of them and some of them, such as the two above, do more than help one ailment.

[Pook075]

Well, live another day and learn something.  I've taken carvedilol for the past 3 years (heart problems) and never realized it was a beta-blocker.  Evidently there are a variety of them and some of them, such as the two above, do more than help one ailment.

Hmm, I take carvedilol as well from a heart attack about 7 years ago.  I can say that I've had vivid dreams my entire life, but I rarely remember them anymore- maybe 1 day in 50 I'll wake up and reflect on a dream.

I did read a report in a medical journal that the benefit of beta blockers after two years post- heart problem are minimal, so I've wondered if I should ask my doctor about not taking them anymore.  I really don't know if blocking adrenaline long-term is a good thing or not.  Interesting anyway, I'll rename this thread if it lets me.

[SiberWolf]

I wish I had better advice or support for the overall situation, alas I do not. What I can say is that, like so many of us, I've been there and know how it feels to have what any normal person would consider minor mistakes, or even simple miscommunication interpreted as pure malice for decades, completely illogical and without any opportunity to reason with them.

Now, on to the beta blockers, as this is a really interesting and timely question. To get it out of the way, no, I have no clue how a beta blocker would affect the mindset of a person with BPD. Nor do I personally know how well it helps anyone else, yet... But, as of yesterday, I met with a psychiatrist and discussed my anxiety and other symptoms around the actions of my wife over the last couple years, as well as our impending divorce and no contact for the last few weeks. One of the things she prescribed to me for the anxiety: propranolol. Pharmacy was out of stock yesterday, but was able to get it today and just took my first dose minutes ago. So no, I unfortunately cannot provide insight on a person with BPD taking these drugs, but in a few weeks I should have a first hand account on if they help with the trauma that they put their families through at least.