It all happened last week

[ConfusedCanuck]

So...i am 52, married for 27 years.  It has had ups and downs, and i have learnt how to not upset my wife.   Our sex life has been amazing, to non existent and now to no intimacy for some time.

For the last 2.5 years my wife has been extremely depressed and had to quit her job.  I took care of her, and we tried every treatment etc to try and get her better.

She was, i would say promiscous before marriage, and honestly that is how we met (she was my first and only).  I was ok with her history, which also included being raped two times, and knew that was hard on her.

She saw a new therapist 1.5 months ago..and suddently was 'cured' of her depression.  It was crazy how different she was.  So i tried really hard to be in love again..but she would not respond to me touching her or anything.  At least she was active and happy.  We talked about how the therapist was different, but she had no idea.

That high lasted for 4 weeks, then she went deep into depression.  I took her to emergency and we met a new dr/therapist.  In that meeting, while i was holding her hand, she admitted to multiple affairs.  I wash totally shocked.  It seemed like her depression was caused by hiding the affairs and fear of getting caught.  The reason why she had been doing so well for four weeks was because she told that therapist about the rapes and affairs, which she had never done before.

We sorta separated after that, well, she was taken into a phyc ward again cause she was suicedal.  I did not tell her it was over, but my plans were to end our marriage.  Kids are out of the house, and i have not been happy for some time.  This is just the icing on the cake.

So we have been apart one week but still talking on phone each night. She really needs me it seems, and i want her to be safe.

This morning, she was diagnosed with BPD.  And so much of her behaviors make sense now. 

She once had me and one of her men and her go out for dinner together?  Like..wtf.  And there are other risky things like that she did.

Now i am so confused on what is next.  Leaving made so much sense befor this diagnoses.  I am here to read and learn more from others and maybe that will help me.  I will also get counselling myself next week.

Thanks for listening to me ramble.
 

[kells76]

Hi ConfusedCanuck, welcome to the site. You've joined a group that gets it about the confusion, rollercoaster ride, "hot and cold" behaviors, risky choices... all of it.

Sounds like you'd already been pretty sure the marriage needed to end, though now that she has an official diagnosis of BPD, you're questioning? Is that close?

Just for a little more context, were you there in the meeting where the doctor gave the diagnosis? I.e. did you hear about it straight from a practitioner? Getting a feel for how official this is and how involved you've been so far in the medical/logistical process.

What would you say is the top thing, or top few things, about her now getting a diagnosis, that make you unsure about ending the marriage?

  I am here to read and learn more from others and maybe that will help me.  I will also get counselling myself next week.

You're doing a helpful thing to educate yourself and talk to others in similar positions, before making big decisions, especially because you're in this place of having a lot of new questions come up. Getting counseling for you is also really smart. There's a lot to process, for sure.

Anyway, welcome, pull up a chair, and check out some of our links for starters:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

https://bpdfamily.com/content/why-we-struggle-in-relationships

(you can find more under the Tips and/or Tools tabs up top)

Let us know how you're doing again, whenever works for you;

kells76

[ForeverDad]

My ex also pulled away from intimacy in the final years of our marriage.  We had been married for a decade and I had thought having a child would make her have a more positive perspective on life.  Clueless me.  I now know that having children does not fix serious marriage or mental health issues, but having children does make divorce vastly more difficult.

In my case, as I look back, she afterward saw me as a father, not a husband.  Sadly, the abuser in her childhood was her stepfather, supported by her mother, so of course that impacted how she perceived me, a new father.  To this day, with my son now grown, she still avoids any touch, not even a hug.

Your wife has been living this life and perception for decades.  No one can predict whether she will seek therapy, or even whether she will improve.  It is largely up to her.  You can't fix her, only she can decide to fix herself, and to what extent.  Many find it too hard to take the steps to change.  Maybe you can support her, whether short term or long term.  But that is a decision for you to decide.  Whether you continue the marriage — or not — is your decision.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Thanks for the response.

Sounds like you'd already been pretty sure the marriage needed to end, though now that she has an official diagnosis of BPD, you're questioning? Is that close?

Just for a little more context, were you there in the meeting where the doctor gave the diagnosis? I.e. did you hear about it straight from a practitioner? Getting a feel for how official this is and how involved you've been so far in the medical/logistical process.

What would you say is the top thing, or top few things, about her now getting a diagnosis, that make you unsure about ending the marriage?

kells76

She is in a psych ward right now.  The diagnoses came from a new DR there, and he is the one that told me.  It sure seems to fit her behaviours.

I have not been as involved in her treatments as i should have been.  Am more so now.

I was already thinking we needed to change, to split up.  Then the affairs came out.  This was very recent news, but she is in a pysch ward, so i am helping her along with family.  I have not talked to her about what i will do next, as i know it will make it very hard for her to hear.  Then, i find out she has BPD, and that might be why she was doing so many of these things.  Now, i am unclear, was it all not her fault?   Once she is out and doing a bit better, do i forgive her take her back and try to make things better?  Or do i leave like i had been thinking.   

[ForeverDad]

What if she were to be diagnosed as an alcoholic?  Does that mean it's not her fault, that you have to stick by a spouse regardless the behaviors?  What if she spends her weekends bungee jumping off bridges and paragliding off mountaintops and you can't bear the stress and worry?  What if, well, anything?  The point is, you weigh the factors and decide for yourself whether to go forward or call it quits.

In the USA, most states have, to some extent, no fault divorce.  That means a marriage can be ended for any reason, or even no reason.  You decide what you consider is best for you.

Of course, it's not that simple.  But you do get to decide what you can handle.  For example, historically infidelity has been a basis for divorce.  Hers was repeated, not just a one-time incident.  It's can't be excused away, unless you want to.

[Go3737]

Beware the Trauma Bond. It hurts and makes you want to go back.

[Manic Miner]

I generally agree with guys above, but also want to point out a bit empathetic way of thinking.

If she really had a depression because of known reasons, there's a slight chance that she might go in a good direction with therapy. Especially now when she got the diagnosis. Now, it's up to her, how will she respond to this. Will she seek therapy herself, and do everything doctor says, without anyone pushing her or not.

Also consider that your bad news could make her actually commit suicide, since everything points that way.
We are individuals, but also human and we should be empathetic to loved ones. I'm not saying endure the pain, let it be, no matter the cost. No. But take some time at least to see where she will go and do next. Or to put bluntly, to see if she's beyond hope or can be worked with, step by step.

[livednlearned]

i find out she has BPD, and that might be why she was doing so many of these things.  Now, i am unclear, was it all not her fault?

 

It's more about learning to live well.

It will be different for different people -- you might be able to live well knowing that her affairs are a way to alleviate suffering. Some people would be unable to be in a relationship where affairs occur. 

She may learn why she has affairs, and she may believe she won't do it again, but relapse is a possibility and if you both believe "it's not her fault," then it probably won't be and the pattern will likely continue, albeit with more awareness around why it happens.

This journey is about you as much as it is about her. Your values will matter even more than what she is doing because your boundaries will likely be the grounding for the relationship since she isn't likely to experience boundaries innately.

Once she is out and doing a bit better, do i forgive her take her back and try to make things better?  Or do i leave like i had been thinking.   

Be kind to yourself. This is big news to receive and you may need time to learn and figure out what matters to you.

It will be a protracted time of uncertainty, most likely, because only you can know what the right decision is.

Meanwhile, is she accepting her diagnosis?

[Turkish]

This journey is about you as much as it is about her. Your values will matter even more than what she is doing because your boundaries will likely be the grounding for the relationship since she isn't likely to experience boundaries innately.

This is wise, in addition to being kind to yourself.

Being in the psych ward may address extreme issues of self-harm and other issues, but it's not a cure-all. I saw this over 25 years ago with a likely BPD friend who was 5150'd here in California. She returned to functional status in life, the acute issues that landed here there for over a week being addressed, but was still the same person.

It's right to support her, but you also need to take care of and protect yourself.

[PeteWitsend]

Thanks for the response.

She is in a psych ward right now.  The diagnoses came from a new DR there, and he is the one that told me.  It sure seems to fit her behaviours.

I have not been as involved in her treatments as i should have been.  Am more so now.

I was already thinking we needed to change, to split up.  Then the affairs came out.  This was very recent news, but she is in a pysch ward, so i am helping her along with family.  I have not talked to her about what i will do next, as i know it will make it very hard for her to hear.  Then, i find out she has BPD, and that might be why she was doing so many of these things.  Now, i am unclear, was it all not her fault?   Once she is out and doing a bit better, do i forgive her take her back and try to make things better?  Or do i leave like i had been thinking.   

BPD is not something you can fix or even help her through.

It sounds like you enjoy being a caretaker and supportive partner, or a "rescuer" even, and you may very well decide that's how you want to spend the rest of your relationship/life with her.  But you should at least understand what you're getting into and dealing with, so you don't end up even older and more bitter if/when you feel you've sacrificed even more of yourself for her and she has not reciprocated. 

I would also stop basing your decisions on her feelings, her depression, whether it's improved or not.  She is disordered.  You and her aren't on the same wavelength here and are never going to be.  So, for example, don't decide to keep doing XYZ because she was happier then, or stop doing something because she became more depressed.  You have no idea what's going on in her mind, and it sounds like - on top of her BPD - she has hidden A LOT from you.

The part about arranging for you to have dinner with a guy she was having an affair with... that's just bizarre.  I can't tell if that was maliciousness on her part, or done hoping you'd find out the truth because she didn't have the guts to tell you and was being stressed by guilt. 

[PeteWitsend]

.  But you should at least understand what you're getting into and dealing with, so you don't end up even older and more bitter if/when you feel you've sacrificed even more of yourself for her and she has not reciprocated. 
...

Check out the links on this site to books about BPD.

I'd suggest you read "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life"... sounds like that one might be more applicable to your situation.

"Stop Walking on Eggshells" is another well-read book here, but has a broader focus that the caretaker role.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Thanks everyone.  I have been reading (listening to) I hate you don't leave me.  Recommended by one of her therapists.

She is living with her parents for a bit.  While we figure this out.  I also saw a therapist for the first time yesterday.

She is doing a lot better mentally.  Depression seems gone.  She is trying everything to get back together.  Even being a bit over sexual.  I am not responding to that.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Something interesting has come up, she never told anyone about what she was up to..but now is confiding with her best friend.

Her best friend is telling me things (i know that is bad) and her stories do not add up at all.

The biggest thing, is one of the guys she was seeing over 6 months, she told me it was just sex.  But told her friend that she and him were ready to leave their spouses for each other but he backed out.  Looking back, i can see financial things she was doing to prepare for that.  They seemed small at the time but now it all adds up.

To me, that does not seem like the behavior that someone with BPD would exhibit, or am i wrong?  It just seems like someone unhappy who is trying to leave.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Anyone care to comment on this?

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi CC-

To answer your question, yes.  PwBPD (people with BPD) do leave long term relationships/marriages for new and rather untested relationships.  There may be a tendency to do this especially if they sense that their current spouse/SO is feeling dissatisfied in the relationship, or beginning to question things.  “Abandon” you before you “abandon” her sort of thing.  The new people also most likely haven’t experienced the bad behaviors yet..or they’ve been told how “abusive” you are.

I’m very sorry you’re going through this terrible time.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[ConfusedCanuck]

Thanks GemsforEyes.

Hmm..Ok.  that makes sense too then.

I was sortof the mindset that the promiscuity would be more like a one night stand, not an on going relationship where she wants to leave ours.  But i am glad you clarified that for me.

Makes my choices even harder.

And to make it worse i let her move back in, since she was having trouble sleeping away from our home.  We have separate bedrooms anyway. 

But (this is bad) she is suddenly a nympho, and i have given in to that.  We have sex multiple times a day..and she is masturbating on top of that.  So crazy.

She begins treatment for BPD next week. 

[Gemsforeyes]

Wow, CC.

If it were just sex multiple times per day with you, that would be one thing, maybe an effort by her to establish reconnection of a sort and validation (a real NEED of pwBPD).  But the masterbation on top of that leaves me scratching my head?  Have you broached the topic with her?

I don’t know... I don’t.

If you’re in active contact with her therapist or psychiatrist perhaps tell him/her?  But I would NOT tell her friend.

I know this is a very difficult topic, but How does all of this feel emotionally for you?

Warmly,
Gems

[ConfusedCanuck]

This whole thing has been so crazy.   She seems to act different depending on who she is talking too as well.  Maybe there is more going on that just BPD.

I sorta asked what was going on, and she just says she got her sex drive back.  I think its partially because of being taken off some meds.  But this is excessive and never was the normal for us.

Emotionally, for one..i am pretty much not that emotional.  Pretty even keeled.  I suspect that is why we have been together 27 years and i would not get overly upset when she said mean things.  Still trying to figure out where to go from here.  She needs more help and to get "better".  To top it off, our last kids moved out of the house last week for uni.  Which is also emotionally hard on her.

What a mess.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hey-

Yea, it’s hard to digest.  What I meant by asking how it feels emotionally for you, is when you’re engaging in intimacy?

Are you engaged WITH her, or are you a bit “not” there to sort of protect yourself, which would obviously be understandable until you figure out how you truly feel about all of this.

Please note, I’ve been in 2 disordered relationships- a 19-year marriage and a 6.5-year relationship.  I’ve had to “disappear” during intimacy at times to protect myself.  I’m actually not sure if this is normal.  I’ve never asked anyone.  Oops.

Gems

[ForeverDad]

To top it off, our last kids moved out of the house last week for uni.

That in itself may be a big trigger for her, or the little straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak?

A wide range of things can trigger changes in a person with such issues.  For example, getting ready to move, moving, getting ready for vacation, going on vacation, traveling on vacation, upcoming anniversary or birthday, and so on.

A caution here, just because she's currently behaving "better" does not signal she has found a lasting solution

[ConfusedCanuck]

Hmm.  How it feels for me.  Its different than before.   I know she really wants it, maybe she thinks its the way to win me back.  Not sure.  I am not as emotionally in it, and its more sex than making love.  And feel bad for not saying no.  I am trying to make it clear that our future is not clear.  Want her to get things a bit more under control before we really tackle that.   

Sorry to hear you have been through this sort of thing too.

Hey-

Yea, it’s hard to digest.  What I meant by asking how it feels emotionally for you, is when you’re engaging in intimacy?

Are you engaged WITH her, or are you a bit “not” there to sort of protect yourself, which would obviously be understandable until you figure out how you truly feel about all of this.

Please note, I’ve been in 2 disordered relationships- a 19-year marriage and a 6.5-year relationship.  I’ve had to “disappear” during intimacy at times to protect myself.  I’m actually not sure if this is normal.  I’ve never asked anyone.  Oops.

Gems

[ConfusedCanuck]

Hmm...i know the empty nest thing has been on her mind.  But the affairs were a ways back (the ones i know of...which might be all of them).

Her behavior is just strange, the last week she seems to be spending a lot of money on un-necessary things.  And then saying she is worried about our money.   FWIW there is 0 reason to worry about our money.  We are well off.

That in itself may be a big trigger for her, or the little straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak?

A wide range of things can trigger changes in a person with such issues.  For example, getting ready to move, moving, getting ready for vacation, going on vacation, traveling on vacation, upcoming anniversary or birthday, and so on.

A caution here, just because she's currently behaving "better" does not signal she has found a lasting solution

[Gemsforeyes]

From what I understand and have experienced,  but I’m no expert, disordered people may engage in reckless behavior (over spending, substance abuse, inappropriate sex, etc)  to mask underlying feelings that they themselves cannot specifically explain.

As far as her concerns about money, have you asked her the reasons for her concerns?

As you approach this topic, rather than “assuring” her there is no problem with money (I’ve read on the boards that assurances are invalidating) - perhaps engage in a VERY open-ended discussion:

Something like - Explain you’d like to understand where these concerns come from, and you’d like to understand more about what she’s thinking around money issues?  Try to keep it soft, non-confrontational, and tell her you’ll think about what she’s said.  Maybe try NOT to respond in the moment.  Just listen.  You may hear a lot.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gems

[ConfusedCanuck]

Sure, i can try that.  My normal approach would have been different haha.  Thanks!

From what I understand and have experienced,  but I’m no expert, disordered people may engage in reckless behavior (over spending, substance abuse, inappropriate sex, etc)  to mask underlying feelings that they themselves cannot specifically explain.

As far as her concerns about money, have you asked her the reasons for her concerns?

As you approach this topic, rather than “assuring” her there is no problem with money (I’ve read on the boards that assurances are invalidating) - perhaps engage in a VERY open-ended discussion:

Something like - Explain you’d like to understand where these concerns come from, and you’d like to understand more about what she’s thinking around money issues?  Try to keep it soft, non-confrontational, and tell her you’ll think about what she’s said.  Maybe try NOT to respond in the moment.  Just listen.  You may hear a lot.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gems

[Notwendy]

Children leaving home is a transition point. Where a spouse might stay in the marriage because of the kids, at this point, they may feel they have a choice now, to stay or leave. One way to return to that safety net ( child at home ) is to have one. With her being so sexual, I hope you are considering that possibility. The other is that sex produces "feel good" chemicals in the brain and someone can use sex for that, just like others may use a different addiction (drugs, gambling etc)

Having BPD does not excuse her behaviors. It may be the reason for them but pwBPD are not unaware of what they do. They may somehow justify it emotionally. It seems like you are now concerned about the idea of leaving a person who has a mental illness rather than a person who didn't have one and was cheating on you. That is an understandable concern.

I think it comes down to your own boundaries and values. I don't think you expected a marriage with infidelity. Now that you see your wife has been cheating multiple times, and you can't really change that, you still get to choose- can you continue to be in a marriage with infidelity or not. That's a personal choice. If infidelity isn't acceptable to you, her having BPD is not going to make it acceptable. Do you want this for the long term?

I think if a person we care about has an illness, we would help but also that person has to also help themselves too. It's their illness. Forever Dad mentioned alcoholism. There's a difference between staying with an alcoholic who is in treatment and is making efforts to stay sober than one who denies they have a problem and continues to drink while their family remains unhappy. One is that the person owns the issue and works at their recovery. The spouse is supportive but does not enable. The other is that the person doesn't take responsibility for their actions.

I wonder about her diagnosis. Being excessively sexual and excessive spending are typical of bipolar. The sudden change between depressed and happy are also typical of that. During the manic stage, people can't sleep at night, are overly sexual, spend lots of money. Then they can get very depressed. None of us are professionals on this board, but if the professionals only saw her during the depression, they may not have seen this behavior in her. People in their "manic" stage don't usually seek out help because they feel good during these times. I think it's would help to have her evaluated again. BPD and Bipolar are different and there are specific medicines for bipolar.

Usually if someone is in psychiatric care, they are sent home with a plan to keep seeing the doctor for treatment. I assume she has one and so needs to go back. She may not be honest with them about what is going on. Ask if you can attend with her and you tell the doctor. Make sure she signs consents for you to do this. My BPD mother has not told her doctors all of her issues and sometimes has refused to cooperate with the treatment plan. That makes it hard to help her. I hope your wife will cooperate with hers.

[ForeverDad]

There is a difference between Bi-polar and BPD.  Bi-polar indicates a chemical imbalance and can be treated with meds.  While BPD too can be treated with meds, they only moderate the behaviors, long term therapy applied diligently in the person's life and perceptions is needed.

[Notwendy]

Yes big difference. What got my attention was deep depression, then a sudden clearing of it with a high, then a crash into depression again. She's not sleeping, wants sex all the time and is spending lots of money. This is a common pattern with Bipolar disorder. Now, none of us here can diagnose but we've all read these things to try to figure out what is going on with the person with BPD. They can look similar but BPD doesn't do this kind of cycling as far as I know, with staying up all night, wanting sex all the time and spending money ( the manic stage) then crashing into depression again from what I have seen or read.

PwBPD can act out sexually, have substance abuse, do reckless things but this dramatic up/down- makes me wonder. As FD said, this is also important for prognosis. Medication can help Bipolar itself. There is no medication that actually treats BPD- it can treat the associated moods but not the BPD itself.

I think it helps to also know if this is Bipolar or BPD because the right treatment matters. Mental health can only diagnose what they see. They only know what she tells them. This can be a problem. My BPD mother is not honest with her mental health providers. They have been unable to help her because of this. And because she didn't allow us to speak to them, we can't help either.

[ConfusedCanuck]

A lot to take in here, and thanks for that everyone.  At one point they thought she was bi-polar, but that was before she told anyone (therapist, me, friends..no one) about the affairs.

"Children leaving home is a transition point. Where a spouse might stay in the marriage because of the kids, at this point, they may feel they have a choice now, to stay or leave."  There have been a few times where she told me she would leave me when the kids left.  So that sorta jives with this time in our marriage.

Also, worth noting she has her tubes tied...cannot get preg.

She will be seeing her therapist again next week.  I can meet with him after for 15 minutes, but its just on a day i cannot make work..grrr.  I feel like it would be good for me to tell him what i see, what she is doing at home..from my honest point of view.  I think she is very manipulitive yet with her friends..and me,  and probably the therapist too.

[Notwendy]

Well maybe another day there will be a chance to speak to the T

To be helped, people need to want the help and cooperate with the providers. Although my BPD mother wasn't happy at times- as far as she is concerned, it's not about her but it's someone or something else at fault. She doesn't believe there's anything wrong with her. It's all everyone else.

She's had mental health off and on,  but she's also very manipulative- with everyone. She spins the story. We don't know what she tells them but her sessions are about how she copes with the other people she blames the situation on.

Sadly, she's been resistant to mental health intervention. Even a trained professional can not change how someone thinks. She doesn't believe she has anything to do with the issues that upset her. If anyone mentions it- she dissociates, or dismisses them. She just can't go there emotionally.

I think mental health is worth the try, on the chance that it might help the situation. It's what we'd want for anyone who we care about. But the best we can do is make this possible- they have to want the help and work with them. See how this goes and then reassess.

[Go3737]

She has multiple affairs. Her tubes are ties. She cant get pregnant. She probably didnt use protection.
Get yourself tested for STDs.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Hmm.   Never really thought about that.

She has multiple affairs. Her tubes are ties. She cant get pregnant. She probably didnt use protection.
Get yourself tested for STDs.

[PeteWitsend]

CC - go talk to a family law / divorce attorney as well, to understand how to protect yourself and your share of any marital assets if she takes this possible Mania/infidelity too far.

[maxsterling]

Something interesting has come up, she never told anyone about what she was up to..but now is confiding with her best friend.

Her best friend is telling me things (i know that is bad) and her stories do not add up at all.

The biggest thing, is one of the guys she was seeing over 6 months, she told me it was just sex.  But told her friend that she and him were ready to leave their spouses for each other but he backed out.  Looking back, i can see financial things she was doing to prepare for that.  They seemed small at the time but now it all adds up.

To me, that does not seem like the behavior that someone with BPD would exhibit, or am i wrong?  It just seems like someone unhappy who is trying to leave.

Many here have similar stories - this is typical BPD.  AFAIK, my wife has not had an affair on me.  But she has cheated on exes.  It sounds to me her typical MO was to have someone else lined up and that person was a motivation to leave the current r/s.

[GaGrl]

My husband's ex is uBPD/NPD. She began infidelities about 18 months into their marriage and continued until she moved out of their shared home after about 22 years. She did not want to divorce -- she put H into a Parent position and somewhat on a pedestal.

That didn't keep her from giving him an STD and later endangering his military career by her blatant behavior.

I'm not sure how much of the sexual behavior was BPD and how much was NPD. One form of NPD is the use of sex for manipulation.

Any time affairs and infidelities arise with a personality disorder, it seems to me an escalation and needs to be examined.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Ok, will look into getting tested.

We both see our own therapists this week Thursday.  Hopefully time around i can meet with hers (individually) to find out some stuff, and give him some more info.

[ForeverDad]

Stated as a non-professional and not an authority, I believe you can contact and share information with her T, however her T may not be able to respond to you or share with you unless she has granted T her permission.

[Notwendy]

It's also up to the T. BPD mother did not give consent for us to communicate with her providers. There were times I tried to provide information and some were willing to listen to me and others were not.

As BPD mother is now elderly, she did sign consents for some of her providers to speak to me but if I contact them, it's brief and relates to her care. It's not for my own feelings.

Keep in mind that if your discussion requires their time- they are professionals and can not be expected to spend a long time with you without compensation and due to whatever confidentiality situation they have- they can not do this.

Some may refuse to avoid a triangulation. For them to be able to help your wife- they need a working relationship with her. She may feel betrayed if they talk to you.

It can't hurt to ask, but they may or may not wish to or be able to speak to you.

[ConfusedCanuck]

I have already got the ok from both of them.  I will take 15 minutes of one of her 60 minute slots.

[ConfusedCanuck]

So...i had this meeting last week.  Was very interesting.  Found out she had been lying to him about most stuff.  Grr.

The day before the appointment i took her credit and bank cards away.  She had been spending a bit recklessly for a few days and had to be done.

First she met the therapist. then i came in.  Some small talk, then he said he was very happy with her progress.  I was shocked.  I asked if they talked about her spending and me taking away the cards.  They had not.  Which led to a few other conversations about things not being said.  :-(

She seems to have changed since that meeting, almost being like someone with Dementia.  Hard to explain, but she can no longer do simple tasks, and just says bizarre things out of the blue.  Sometimes true, other times there is a tiny bit of truth, but its all mixed up.
IE, she told me, did you know i got your dog an ear tattoo.  Ok...i was there and that was 12 years ago.  She says, i want to get one on my lower back now.  What? a Tramp Stamp? (sorry if i offend).

Or She really enjoyed what we did last night with so and so..But, that thing she is talking about is 5 years ago, and she has the person wrong.

This last week she has been a handful.   I would say 10-20 odd things happening a day.  But then a friend of hers came over and she snapped right out of it.  Ug..so strange.

[ForeverDad]

Is it her way, whether consciously or unconsciously, to confuse you and distract you after that meet with her T and T hearing from the other side?

If she can snap out of it with her friend, then something is there.

[SaltyDawg]

One of the symptoms according to:  https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/borderline-personality-disorder

Feelings of dissociation, such as feeling cut off from oneself, observing oneself from outside one’s body, or feelings of unreality.

What you described is 'dissociation'.

You need to explore if you can accept the person whom your wife currently is - defects and all.  Also, if she is actively addressing these issues seriously, or just going through the motions.  Use your counselor to sort these feelings out and do what is best for you as there are no children at home.

Based on what you have shared, and if it were me, I personally would cut my losses and run especially as she is not honest with her counselor.  However, do see a 'high conflict' divorce attorney, and follow his / her advise.  Do your homework, on which ones are better.  Change your passwords on financial liability accounts (banking, amazon, etc.).  Do document all of her indiscretions that will hold up in court.

Good luck, I feel for you.  My previous relationship in the late 1990's was eerily similar to what you describe as your current relationship with your wife.  A uNPD&BPDgf/so [undiagnosed NPD & BPD girl friend/significant other], I ran away as fast I could after the 2nd time I found out she was unfaithful to me.  However, I did jump from the proverbial 'fire' to the comparative safety of the 'frying pan' and I am currently with a uBPDw who projects herself as the perfect church lady while I am the f- up sailor who married her.

I am a sucker to be a caretaker of the BPD/NPD and have found the following book most helpful in dealing with my emotions and how to deal with the partner, I highly recommended reading the following book:  Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life by Margalis Fjelstad

[ConfusedCanuck]

Not sure why i keep this going, but going to post a little update...

She got out of the institute last week.  And on Friday it was our 28th anniversary.  So we went out for a dinner and to a football game.  Things were going well, she was happy, a bit off, but happy.  Then I ran into an old guy friend and started talking, she walked off a bit and met a guy..froma  short distance i watch as she touched his arm, shared a beer with him and touched his back.  I went over and said lets go.  She kissed him and whispered in his ear.  I found out later what  she whispered to him about wanting to have sex with him.   So the next day i told her it was time to leave.  This might be the last time.  I could not believe this happened right in front of me..on what seemed to be a good night and our anniversary. 

[Turkish]

I have no words, CC. Sex-love addiction? What did she say and what are you going to do?

[SaltyDawg]

CC,

I am going to try and connect the dots; hopefully, you can see the full picture here...

• Not sure why i keep this going,  Sounds like Trauma Bond Codependency -- check this out with your Therapist
  
  
• She got out of the institute last week.   She has just completed the most intense treatment available, so she should be on the 'mend'; however, ...
  
  
• I found out later what she whispered to him about wanting to have sex with him.   So the next day i told her it was time to leave.  This might be the last time.  I could not believe this happened right in front of me..on what seemed to be a good night and our anniversary.

Start believing! 

Your "Wise Mind" needs to listen more to your "Logical/Reasonable Mind" and less to your "Emotional Mind", talk to your Therapist, make a decision, and then fully commit on a course of action as you have seemingly done all you can with a full hospitalization.  Is she in PHP [partial hospitalization protocol] or IO [intensive outpatient] -- this is usual 'weening' process from full institutionalization?  If, "yes" to either of those, discuss with their teams of therapists what went on during your anniversary, if your 'gut feeling' indicates that that would be helpful.

If, I were in your shoes, I would contact an attorney, protect whatever assets I could [I am actively documenting -- see my other posts on the issue], and then follow the advise of that attorney [do not let your wife know you are doing this] -- that is what I want to do now with my wife, and my situation is less extreme than yours; however, there are children in my mix, so I cannot do that to the children.

[ForeverDad]

She just was released from [what I'll call rehab].  With that thought in mind, when alcoholics or drug addicts exit rehab, what is their greatest risk?  That they relapse into prior patterns.  They really can change, but it takes immense determination.  She was just released and this happens.  Does she want to change?

While you do care for her, it may be time to let her live her own life.  You can't force her to be faithful just as you can't force her to be mentally healthy.  This is not to say you can't choose to continue being her lifestyle guardian but then the question would be whether you can do it and still feel emotionally healthy.

What you can do is to structure her finances as she "moves on" to wherever in such a way they last for as long as possible.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Thanks everyone.

So much happens in a day in my life right now i can hardly keep up.

Currently she is living with her parents, two weeks now. They can't handle her and she needs to leave.  I am looking at apartments, but we are not sure she can make it on her own.  She can't cook now, doesn't shower, has memory and cognitive problems.  And now lies so much to everyone..pathological.  The other option is for her to come home.  She wants to go back to mental institute but they will not take her back again.

She went for a DBT program appraisal i guess its called, but apparently they won't let her in as they say she is not capable of doing that at this point.  Sadly, the DBT Therapist won't give me any details until my wife gives her permission to talk to me.  Hopefully in this next weeks appointment we can change that.

Has anyone else seen problems that are almost dementia like?  She can hardly remember things from the same day, and keeps getting time lines mixed up.  Thinking something happened yesterday that was years ago.  She also says very confusing things..ie..out for lunch with a friend and says, "i hate that this place put thousand island dressing on the casaer salad"  at a place she has never been to before.  After being told they wouldn't, she still asks that waitress not to do that.   There are so many little examples of that every day.  Getting into someones truck after leaving a grocery store with a friend...when they came in a car, and none of the family even has a truck.

[ConfusedCanuck]

My sis in law did a cognitive test on my wife.  Sis in law is a nurse, and its a test they do on patients being admitted to a care home.  She scored fairly low.  Failed questions like:

what day of the week is it,
what month is it,
spell a word backwards,
fold a piece of paper in half
write a sentence
draw a simple image of two shapes to match a diagram provided
read a sentence out loud then do what it said (Smile after reading this sentence)

Still wondering if the cognitive issues and memory issues are BPD are something all together different.
Also of note, my wife was told it was a simple test, she did not ask what it tested.  When it was done, she did not ask her score or even how she did.  Just went on with her day.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Moved her into an apartment.  Not sure if this is best or not but will see how things go.

Scored a 19/30 on the McCA test.  Not good.   More and more talk of BPD plus something else that is affecting short and long term memory, as well as cognitive issues.  Maybe some sorta of early on set dementia?  More tests to come.

[SaltyDawg]

ConfusedCanuck,

   I feel for you, I am reading your posts, but don't quite know what to say. 

   You are in my thoughts and prayers, just wanted to let you know as you are going through a very tough time.

SD

[ConfusedCanuck]

Thanks.  Its all so messed up.  We need to get some brain scans done i think, but here in Canada there is a long wait.  Might have to go down to the US or Mexico even to get something done quicker.

IE we have an appointment with her Dr, in two months.  That is the soonest we can get.  He will then send her for a scan, which will have another waiting period..likely months.   grrr.

[SaltyDawg]

I feel your pain.  As much as the US medical system is messed up, over-priced, limited access, if you have the resources [$$$], you can get anything you want fairly quickly, as that is capitalism at its best versus public health in Canada and other UK countries.

One thought came to mind which may or may not be relevant, and my train of thought is a tangent to your train of thought, if the mild cognitive impairment that seems to be recent and the symptoms presented somewhat suddenly  [e.g. one day she was fine, and the next day she wasn't].  Have mini-stroke(s) been considered, as that could possibly induce some of the symptoms that you are witnessing?  I would imagine if you mention that, and your medical professionals are in agreement, it might get your wife more immediate attention for a brain scan as it would become higher priority.

For limited public resources, it often comes down to how you word the truth that will determine how much priority is assigned to it.

I will give an example in the US, if you discover that you have been robbed of let say a bicycle [but don't tell them that you see the bicycle being ridden by some punk kid the next street over], and call 911 to report it.  They may eventually send someone out to get a police report sometime that day, or even later on in the week, if ever.  However, if you tell them you have been robbed and use the key words to the dispatcher of "in progress" [similar in immediate effect to triggering a borderline] saying that your robbed of your bicycle, and you also tell them that it is in progress as you see the punk kid that stole it is riding it -- you will likely get immediate attention to the matter.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Thanks..yeah that makes sense.

I may actually bring her to emergency tomorrow.  Family has told me she can no longer take her meds on her own. Today  she took two days worth.  They are blister packed and she only has a weeks worth at the apartment.  I think she might wake up from a nap and be confused and take the next days pills.  She cannot keep track of the days it seems. 

So depending on how things go tomorrow, i may that her into emergency and see a DR and try to get some scans ASAP.  I am also looking hard at Mexico and might take a little trip in the next few weeks.

[RisingAboveAll]

I want to chime in to say that my pwBPD ex also was hypersexual. She usually wanted to have sex several times a day, and in between she would go in the bedroom or bathroom alone and masturbate. It's an addictive behavior like any other. I feel sick that I let myself believe our sex life was about love and affection, when I understand now it was her attempt to regulate her emotional state. Like cutting, like getting high, like risky behavior. She couldnt go a few hours without an intense sensation or the numbing of sensation.

[SaltyDawg]

CC - Please keep us updated, as that is very concerning.

   potentially triggering sexual content below 

RAA - That's a bit extreme.  My wife, when we first met, until we conceived our first child she wanted "it" every day we were together (just about 5 years), and then went cold turkey.  My #1 love language is 'physical touch' so she was ringing my bell every day - ideally I like it twice maybe three times a week; however, for her it was every day we were together [except during menses] It was 7 times per week, and then 7 times in a decade (a 500x difference) -- No BS. 

The only plausible theory [guess], I am going to use a slang term of "Daddy Issues" as my mind's ANTs do not want to think of it in reality.  I will be addressing these ANTs soon with my individual T now that my pwBPD is finally self-aware.

When we first met, there were a few days that it was higher; however, if she was overstimulated [too many times, or I took too long and teased her 'spot' for too long, as I wanted to maximize her pleasure], her nervous system would kind of 'short out' from too much pleasure and she could no longer have the big "O" and there would be a mental/physical manifestation of dissociation/detachment from the 'spot' to the mind - the last listed symptom of BPD until she returned to baseline.   I am curious if anyone else here has observed this?

[ForeverDad]

For a decade we were intimate frequently.  One thing that didn't make sense was she almost always wore sweats to bed.  I felt it wasn't conducive to our comfort.

Then we had a child.  Oh my, having a child doesn't fix serious mental health problems, it vastly complicates them later with custody and parenting schedules.

Then he reached the age when her own sexual terrors started when her mother met the future child abuser.  Yikes, I knew about this but now I was a (good) husband which she couldn't separate from her mother's (bad) husband.  For years I was so thankful we had a son, imagine how much worse (her allegations of child abuse against me) would have been if we had a daughter!