Anyone else triggered much more than they should be by passive-aggressiveness?

[Riv3rW0lf]

The title pretty much sums the question...

I finally realized what had been eating at me in my relationship with my Mother in law, and I can finally clearly see she has been consistently passive-aggressive with me, and still is.

I tried my best, set boundaries clearly and respectfully, only to realize they (both in-laws) cross it as soon as my back is turned. So there is no trust possible anymore in our relationship. I visited them all summer with my children so that they could see them at least once a week, something even my husband wouldn't do. Only to find more passive-aggressiveness whenever something doesn't go her way? If that's even the reason because it is all so covert that I don't even know what set her off.

So I decided I would not visit them alone anymore. I will visit either with my H, or H will have to go by himself with the children. I realized I absolutely do not need to do all that I am doing for her, only to get confused at if I did something wrong. And since I cannot trust her judgment either, she just won't get to babysit my daughter as much as she'd like either... I just don't trust she won't talk to her behind my back to be honest. After all, she talks in my back to all kind of people, wrote me once about me by mistake...

I feel like most people could let it go, let her act this way and think nothing more of it.. my H certainly can and doesn't seem to care too much, telling me to call her out on the spot, as if it should be easy.

All this to say : I do feel like I am triggered by passive-aggressive people much more than I should be.

There is a side to our BPD mother that is passive-aggresive too right? they are more overt, generally, they don't fear confrontation
.. but they can also be very passive-aggressive it seems...I wonder if I am not set off and triggered by it because this kind of attitude was usually followed by a rage? And so, even if MIL would never rage or abuse me, I still get unnerved? Thoughts?

[Couscous]

Talking behind someone’s back is not passive-aggression, but rather, covert aggression. Passive aggression is defined by what’s not done, whereas covert aggression is active. But it is totally normal to be triggered by any kind of aggression - covert, overt or passive. It’s all still aggression.

Here’s a good article explaining the difference between passive and covert aggression: https://www.drgeorgesimon.com/covert-behaviors-are-anything-but-passive/

[Riv3rW0lf]

Thanks for pointing that out Couscous. She is both covert and passive then, still mostly passive. I won't go into all the details of her behaviors.

[Couscous]

My previous T liked to remind me that passive aggression is still aggression. Talking about people behind their backs is not ever OK -- it's a form of bullying called relational aggression and is toxic. Grandmothers are extremely influential and you are not overreacting at all to want to protect your children from this kind of behavior, and you are doing right by your daughter by limiting the amount of contact that your MIL will have with her.

I'm sorry that your kids have two toxic grandmothers, and I hope that your step-mother is willing to step in as a surrogate grandmother for your kids. Sending you a big hug.

[Notwendy]

I think our husband's families have similar dynamics which is interesting as it's a contrast to ours. When emotions are not expressed, then I think the passive way is how people get what they want. I find it irritating when people don't come right out and say what they want, but try other ways - because it's a form of manipulation. There are lots of ways to manipulate but when I feel there's manipulation going on, I feel irritated by it.

I think we can also discern how "toxic" someone is. While my MIL can be co-dependent and bit passive aggressive, she's not toxic. It's just the dynamics she knows- and probably was raised with. She's not abusive and she's not mentally ill. I felt my kids were safe around her when they were little and they felt safe too.

Your in laws may be different than this.

I understand your wanting your H to come with you. One thing though- this is his "normal" family dynamics and we tend to fall into place in this when we are with our families of origin. Sometimes I found it irritating to see my H in this pattern and it felt like he was being manipulated but he didn't see what was normal for him. Again though, it was whether it was toxic or not- and it wasn't.

I think on your part, you may have "done too much" which leads to us feeling resentment. Once a week of this is probably too much. On the other hand, are these grandparents so toxic that NC is warranted or is it something to manage. I think having your H along is one way to manage this. Maybe once a week is too much.

Remember, boundaries are on your part, they decide your behavior. Also, what boundaries are being violated. If you say "don't feed the kids candy" and then grandma feeds them candy- then having them alone with grandma may mean less often, which limits how much they get candy.

I think it's important to partner with your H on this. These are his parents. You don't want to get into a triangle over this. It's about what you can tolerate and what you can't. You can't change them or how they operate. What boundaries can you put in place to minimize it?

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think our husband's families have similar dynamics which is interesting as it's a contrast to ours. When emotions are not expressed, then I think the passive way is how people get what they want. I find it irritating when people don't come right out and say what they want, but try other ways - because it's a form of manipulation. There are lots of ways to manipulate but when I feel there's manipulation going on, I feel irritated by it.

I think that's the main problem I observe with me: I am much more than irritated. I get triggered to anger and rage. My reactions are completely disproportionate to what happens, and I am not sure how I can manage those reactions... They can extend for days following passive-aggressive comments, or oversteps in clear, previously outlined boundaries

I think we can also discern how "toxic" someone is. While my MIL can be co-dependent and bit passive aggressive, she's not toxic. It's just the dynamics she knows- and probably was raised with. She's not abusive and she's not mentally ill. I felt my kids were safe around her when they were little and they felt safe too.

Your in laws may be different than this.

I wouldn't say they are toxic. I don't think she is toxic... What she said about me that time was basically a judgment based on a decision my H and I took, which, to be honest, did end up firing back at us. So I wouldn't say it is toxic, but certainly judgmental.

There is also a clear tendancy to overstep our boundaries, but again, not in a toxic manner.

Some examples are :
1) we asked them to text before coming to our house, and to stop bringing us junk food, candies and junk items from the dollar store to decorate our house... They respected it a while, but last week, low and behold, she was back at it, came to drop a cheap plastic pumpkin, without texting, on lunch time, when she knows the children are there. I was busy in the kitchen and H answered the door.
 
When I saw her next, she made comments with a weird tone about the pumpkin and her having lights for it when they stop working. I didn't even know what to answer and why she'd bring that up with this tone. Like she wanted to compel me to thank her for going against our request.

It's not that bad, but it's irritating, but for me : it is more than irritating and I am not sure how to manage my own reaction to seemingly small incidents like this that clearly don't warrant rage?

The rest of the behavior is mostly how she addresses me, scoffs at stories, or compare our parenting decision, like everything I do is a personal offense against her as a parent...which it isn't. I clearly explained last time that we were told different things from the doctors nowadays, after she said : "sugar never killed anyone." (Spoiler: both developped diabetes from poor eating habits).

I really pay attention to what I say, but I now realize her attitude has nothing to do with me, it's all her own lack of self-esteem projected back in a non-healthy way. It's passive-aggression born from her not having been able to stand up to her own mother in law. She told me once :"I could never stand up to my MIL the way you do". Like she resents me for setting limits.

But then, it's not like she gave me a choice. Everytime I had her take care of my daughter, she ended up filled up with chocolates, candies, juice, but like..I could tolerate reasonable amount of treats, but they give her an awful lot of it, like they are trying to buy her out with sugar and gifts, to a point where my daughter had huge sugar meltdowns in the aftermath of her visit. So like you said Notwendy, I went another approach, and reduced the number of time my daughter visits alone, or I arrange the visit at my house and have a diner and dessert already prepared.

Last time I did that, she looked pissed and told me :"you don't need to give yourself trouble, we can cook for them too." Then the next day, D told me MIL refused to eat diner because there were mushrooms in the pasta (fair enough) but then proceeded to tell my D she would have rathered have a pizza with mushrooms... To which D answered she didn't like pepperoni and liked the pasta better... (win for me I guess). But the mere fact that she would mention pizza during dinner, after being pissed left me confused and wondering if I was imagining things.

But it kept building up from there, to a point where she clearly is pissed at me, and I have no idea what I did. I thought I was being fair, but then she makes those weird comments like : "When it is H with your son than visits, your son if always calm and plays by himself." ... Which she says as a reaction to my son in my arms, asking to interact with me by laughing and pointing my nose and saying "nose!". Just so weird to me... It feels like she is jealous of the proximity I have with my children. But then, I also feel like I might be reading too much into it, as a response to my trauma with me mother.

It's not that she is toxic , it's that she can't express her needs and doesn't deal with her own negative emotions? And I can feel it from a mile away. But instead of simply being irritated, I get enraged... And thus am here for your wisdom... To learn to manage this rage.

I understand your wanting your H to come with you. One thing though- this is his "normal" family dynamics and we tend to fall into place in this when we are with our families of origin. Sometimes I found it irritating to see my H in this pattern and it felt like he was being manipulated but he didn't see what was normal for him. Again though, it was whether it was toxic or not- and it wasn't.

I think on your part, you may have "done too much" which leads to us feeling resentment. Once a week of this is probably too much. On the other hand, are these grandparents so toxic that NC is warranted or is it something to manage. I think having your H along is one way to manage this. Maybe once a week is too much.

Remember, boundaries are on your part, they decide your behavior. Also, what boundaries are being violated. If you say "don't feed the kids candy" and then grandma feeds them candy- then having them alone with grandma may mean less often, which limits how much they get candy.

I think it's important to partner with your H on this. These are his parents. You don't want to get into a triangle over this. It's about what you can tolerate and what you can't. You can't change them or how they operate. What boundaries can you put in place to minimize it?

Maybe I have done too much. But honestly it wouldn't feel like too much if she wasn't this passive-aggressive, if she didn't send me mixed signals all the time?

I feel that if I could control my being overtriggered by it, things would work out better...

Having my H with me is a temporary bandage until I can manage my triggers better. It might have to be a permanent thing though, seeing how poorly I am managing them right now though.

[Notwendy]

Actually, your MIL does sound more difficult to me. She's different from my MIL. By passive aggressive, I mean the members of their family won't express needs directly- they enlist someone else to do it. One example is if my SIL wants MIL to do something she will then call my H to enlist him to do it with her "we gotta make mom do this". This is irritating, but not toxic.

Your MIL repeatedly violates your boundaries, dismisses your parenting, your cooking, makes critical comments about your parenting. She's invalidating. I'd be angry too. Just because she's not as toxic as your mother, doesn't means how she treats you is OK. I think sometimes our ideas are skewed by what our mother's did. Well, she's not beating you, this must be OK- right? Not really.

Your H is also influenced by his childhood and so may not see the disorder here as this is his "normal" so you may not be able to get him to see this as you see it. It's also his mother and he likely wants to have a relationship with her. I think the best approach here is to diminish the frequency of these encounters and decrease the babysitting to none over time. A sudden decrease may prompt a reaction.

Although I didn't leave my kids alone with my BPD mother ( it's not safe to do that) I found that the potential for emotional harm to them increased as the kids got older due to her drama. You wonder about your D's behavior now. How much of this is due to her grandmother's invalidating her feelings? The kids didn't spend a lot of time with her but there was little to engage in drama over when they wanted to play at the park or watch Disney movies, but as adolescents BPD mother began to enlist them as emotional caretakers, began asking personal questions- and I had to have boundaries about that.

Boundaries are on your part. She's not going to change her behavior. You will need to navigate this relationship with your boundaries.

If she will not respect your request to not overdo the sugar, IMHO she doesn't babysit or at least not often as you can't control what she does. If she's not emotionally safe for your D, then she doesn't babysit at all on her own but can visit with other people or see the kids when someone else is there.

I think your idea about you doing the cooking is good.  If she doesn't want to eat your cooking- that's on her.

If I asked someone to not bring decorations and they did, then that decoration either goes in the trash or is donated if it's something of value. Junk food also goes in the trash. Candy can go to a local soup kitchen where they may use it at Thanksgiving or Christmas for an extra treat with the meal. They'd probably appreciate holiday decorations too.

 

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy, first I want to thank you so very much for the validation and guidance, I truly appreciate it.

Actually, your MIL does sound more difficult to me. She's different from my MIL. By passive aggressive, I mean the members of their family won't express needs directly- they enlist someone else to do it. One example is if my SIL wants MIL to do something she will then call my H to enlist him to do it with her "we gotta make mom do this". This is irritating, but not toxic.

yes, I could see that as being irritating. Like you mentioned in your earlier post, it is still some kind of triangulation/manipulation on their part.

Your MIL repeatedly violates your boundaries, dismisses your parenting, your cooking, makes critical comments about your parenting. She's invalidating. I'd be angry too. Just because she's not as toxic as your mother, doesn't means how she treats you is OK. I think sometimes our ideas are skewed by what our mother's did. Well, she's not beating you, this must be OK- right? Not really.

I think you a right, and that my experience with MIL is being skewed by my BPD mother's behavior. Since she isn't screaming, or "in my face" about it, so it seems I tend to gaslight myself. Especially since H doesn't see the toxicity. For him : "Just say no, or tell her on the spot! it's easy". But it doesn't seem easy to me...

I did yesterday, stand up to her... Twice in less than 2 minutes. H had an exam for Halloween's eve, and we set up a complex Halloween decor that require one of us to stay home to give candy. FIL and MIL made it clear they wanted to go trick or treating with our children, so I cancelled other plans I had for D and let them go. FIL was there, and he does feel safer (ish), with the children anyway, he really loves them and he doesn't try to parent them. He is also uncomfortable dropping things at our house when asked by MIL, it is clear to me that he doesn't want to intrude. The thing is : he has a life, he has projects... She doesn't, she is bored and it seems to me she clings to her grandchildren as a result. Because this summer, she wasn't as needy when she had other things to care about at their camping.

Anyway... around 6h40, they came back from trick or treating and D kept coming into the garage to be with me... I really wanted her to "unwind' from what had been a very long day of excitement, and so asked her multiple times to go watch a movie with FIL and MIL. She would go, then come back with a new request, and at some point I realized she was just overly tired, she was on edge, emotional, felt like she needed to be with me, not FIL and MIL. So I cancelled the program, closed the garage door, put the candy bowl outside and closed the house to care for my children.

When I came in, I thanked FIL and MIL and told them I was closing the house and would put the children to bed. D was crying, she wanted to give more candies, she was overtired. MIL started telling her (like she wanted her to be crying because she was leaving, which she wasn't) : "I will come back to see you this week. And you will come see me at my house next week end." So I called her out on the spot : "MIL, we are not here next week end, and I would appreciate you asking H or I before saying those kind of things to D." To which she replied : " I didn't say anything... I didn't..." I turned around, looked at D, told her we'd get her into a warm bath and relax a bit before reading a bedtime stories. Then MIL cut me off and said to D : "If you keep crying like that after trick or treating, we won't go trick or treating again." To which I immediately said: " What are you even saying MIL, this is not the way we handle tiredness and crankiness here. I won't let you threaten my daughter because she is tired. It is ok to be overwhelmed at times and OF COURSE we will go trick or treating next year." I was beyond myself. I thanked them both and left with my children upstairs.

Usually, I would have wrote her to say another thank you, to compensate for my standing up for my D. I did feel a bit guilty that I basically threw them out of the house. But H came up and talked with them outside a bit and said there didn't seem to be any issues. I told him what had happened and he said I was right, and she was out of place. I told him I had expectations of him standing up with me on all this. And he said he would.

Maybe you were right Notwendy, that the rage I felt wasn't rage initially, but a built up in all my resentment for all the times I said nothing when she would say those kind of things to D... I would always talk with D after every visit though... She seemed fine most of the times. But you are right that I don't know what she tells D when I am not there... And clearly she is uncomfortable with negative emotions and will invalidate her and use guilt against her, which I cannot tolerate anymore.

Your H is also influenced by his childhood and so may not see the disorder here as this is his "normal" so you may not be able to get him to see this as you see it. It's also his mother and he likely wants to have a relationship with her. I think the best approach here is to diminish the frequency of these encounters and decrease the babysitting to none over time. A sudden decrease may prompt a reaction.

I do find he is a bit "off" when they are scheduled to visit. He left his home province for 15 years, and said he came back his "own man" that doesn't care  what his parents think... But I do see him struggle a big at times with what seems to me to be old dynamic... For one : he has a really hard time enforcing our boundaries. Even if he agrees with me : he doesn't want to hurt his mother. She does get a bit waify when she feels threatened and is easily "hurt" by what seemed to be reasonable requests.

Although I didn't leave my kids alone with my BPD mother ( it's not safe to do that) I found that the potential for emotional harm to them increased as the kids got older due to her drama. You wonder about your D's behavior now. How much of this is due to her grandmother's invalidating her feelings? The kids didn't spend a lot of time with her but there was little to engage in drama over when they wanted to play at the park or watch Disney movies, but as adolescents BPD mother began to enlist them as emotional caretakers, began asking personal questions- and I had to have boundaries about that.

I think you are right that D is starting to understand what MIL says, even if it's not said out of anger. She is not screaming, so it's easy for an adult to dismiss, but D hears it, and MIL is an adult... She cannot dismiss MIL like I can... So I need to stand up for her more as things happen.

I could see my MIL do that too... ask personal questions and steer my D's mind in the way she wants... or just to meddle and be able to judge and talk behind our backs with other people...

Boundaries are on your part. She's not going to change her behavior. You will need to navigate this relationship with your boundaries.

If she will not respect your request to not overdo the sugar, IMHO she doesn't babysit or at least not often as you can't control what she does. If she's not emotionally safe for your D, then she doesn't babysit at all on her own but can visit with other people or see the kids when someone else is there.

I think your idea about you doing the cooking is good.  If she doesn't want to eat your cooking- that's on her.

If I asked someone to not bring decorations and they did, then that decoration either goes in the trash or is donated if it's something of value. Junk food also goes in the trash. Candy can go to a local soup kitchen where they may use it at Thanksgiving or Christmas for an extra treat with the meal. They'd probably appreciate holiday decorations too.

 

Those are wonderful ideas, to donate the decorations and junk food.

I already do not let D go there by herself, except once in a while, every 2 months or so, and I make sure FIL is there, albeit I'm not sure he is doing much... He must agree with her ways, they have been married so long now... But I do find, my D plays with him more than MIL. Something unnerved me about leaving her with them, without having the words for it... Now I do.

It's funny how H always says : "we are going to see grandma!" ... and I always see : "we are going to see grandpa and grandma". I think he is still pissed at his father for abandoning him with her, and that he got heavily parentified, but isn't aware of it.

But you are right. I only have control over my own boundaries... And I need to stand by them. I honestly do not trust anymore that she wouldn't wedge my D against me, even unwillingly. It is, after all, how she operates... she talks against people in their back 75% of the time. I have to put my emotional guard up with her it seems...

[Methuen]

You have described your MIL’s need to fill your kids up with candy when she babsits them.  She also seems to have a need  to subvert your parental values by asking your daughter leading questions (pizza - pasta example), and despite your request to not bring items to your house, her need to do so (with the plastic pumpkin example ) over rules your need not to.  It sounds lke she can’t respect your boundaries.  Her needs supercede yours, even though it’s your home and your daughter.

This was my mother 20+ years ago when our kids were little.  My mom even had candy - licorice twists- in the glovebox of the car.  The candy was everywhere including the car  - despite her knowing we were uncomfortable with it.  

Your MIL shows up unnannounced a lot it sounds like.  Asking her to text first is reasonable.  When my mom was still driving, she would show up at our place almost daily.  We groaned every time we saw her car roll in.  It felt like an invasion because she hijacked whatever we were doing by taking up our time.  She was needy.   We didn’t have a choice to say it wasn’t a good time

I think that's the main problem I observe with me: I am much more than irritated. I get triggered to anger and rage. My reactions are completely disproportionate to what happens, and I am not sure how I can manage those reactions... They can extend for days following passive-aggressive comments, or oversteps in clear, previously outlined boundaries

Well I can understand your reaction because your MIL’s behavior is a pattern and you know she’s not going to change.  

Does it feel like she’s  imposing her values and needs on you?  Does it feel like you have a choice?

We put our kids in daycare.  That’s how we managed the issues around babysitting.  I only worked part time when the kids were little.  But there was no way I was leaving them in her care.  My career was one where my schedule changed every day on an eight day pattern, so this meant I needed full time daycare.  The year I returned to work, I paid more in daycare costs than I earned in salary.  I knew this but accepted it as the price I had to pay to get my foot in the door to returnnto my career.  I got audited by the tax man that year.  I guess they aren’t used to seeing daycare costs higher than wages.  But they didn’t know my mother.

I totally understand the intensity of your reactions to her behavior.  

Limiting her  time alone with your kids, and donating that plastic pumpkin to a second hand store or charity are things you have control over.  If she says things to make you feel guilty- that’s another red flag.  You don’t have to take on that guilt feeling because you’ve stated your wishes and she isn’t able to respect them.  Thats on her.  

I think she is the unreasonable one.  Don’t beat yourself up because of your emotional reactions to her boundary busting.  Just donate the pumpkin.  When she asks where it is, you can tell her kindly that it went to a charity and leave it at that.  No explanations and no justifying.

 

[Riv3rW0lf]

You have described your MIL’s need to fill your kids up with candy when she babsits them.  She also seems to have a need  to subvert your parental values by asking your daughter leading questions (pizza - pasta example), and despite your request to not bring items to your house, her need to do so (with the plastic pumpkin example ) over rules your need not to.  It sounds lke she can’t respect your boundaries.  Her needs supercede yours, even though it’s your home and your daughter.

Methuen, thank you for succinctly putting into words the whole of the dynamic, something I've been trying to do, only to come back to the "events", what happened. My nose is in it and I find it hard to take a step back... And H is not willing to talk about it. He usually helps me so much in putting into words the patterns, which helps me to enter problem solving mode, and when it comes to his mother, he goes right to anger and stonewalling.

But you identified the pattern here. It did feel like a subversion of my parental values and authority, and her needs seem to supercede ours, somehow.  And yes, it does feel like an invasion when she shows up unnanounced like that.

This was my mother 20+ years ago when our kids were little.  My mom even had candy - licorice twists- in the glovebox of the car.  The candy was everywhere including the car  - despite her knowing we were uncomfortable with it.  

Your MIL shows up unnannounced a lot it sounds like.  Asking her to text first is reasonable.  When my mom was still driving, she would show up at our place almost daily.  We groaned every time we saw her car roll in.  It felt like an invasion because she hijacked whatever we were doing by taking up our time.  She was needy.   We didn’t have a choice to say it wasn’t a good time

Goodness ! Everyday ! I would be pulling my hair out ! How did you manage to stay sane through it ?

Well I can understand your reaction because your MIL’s behavior is a pattern and you know she’s not going to change.  

Does it feel like she’s  imposing her values and needs on you?  Does it feel like you have a choice?

She might, if she could, but I have a strong tendency to push people (her specifically, for some reason, really gets under my skin) away when they tell me what to do, or to do the exact contrary just to spite them... Not good, I am working on it a lot, acting instead of reacting... I sometimes went against things I actually wanted to do because she had told me to do what I was about to do anyway...

My best guess it : I react to what I feel. So... She talks in a way where she imposes things.. like : "You will come have a beer with us before diner" instead of "Are you guys free before diner? We'd love to have you over for a beer if you feel like it!". Or "I will come help you decorate your house." As opposed to "I love decorating, don't hesitate if you'd like some ideas." ... It's all in the framing.

She talks like her words is final. And it then takes an extra effort on my part to say : "well... No." And then she says she didn't mean anything by it, or that she sometimes thins I'm sensitive, or she just pout...

I mean... If I don't agree with her, like I shared I wanted to make a painting and art room in what used to be the dining room in my house (currently a play room for my children). It's all opened and I already have a small table in the kitchen, and so I would rather use the space for my family, instead of setting up the space for special family gatherings, like Christmas say. I said that after she mentioned that it would make a beautiful dining room with a beautiful table...

Methuen, the face she made... She disapproved. With all of her body and mind, she disapproved and pouted. I was genuinely taken aback by her reaction. She argued with me ! Saying it would be better to do this art room upstairs, where I have my office, because there was more light. There isn't even more light! There are no southern windows upstairs.  And anyway, how is this any of her business and why was she taking it so personally? My H doesn't even think twice, he marks her up as his mother being his mother, but to me this was out of bounds... Like she was emotionnally invested that I absolutely have a dining table. So weird.

So I guess, I have the choice I decide to take, but it comes to a high cost for someone like me that tends to overanalyse everything and people please?

We put our kids in daycare.  That’s how we managed the issues around babysitting.  I only worked part time when the kids were little.  But there was no way I was leaving them in her care.  My career was one where my schedule changed every day on an eight day pattern, so this meant I needed full time daycare.  The year I returned to work, I paid more in daycare costs than I earned in salary.  I knew this but accepted it as the price I had to pay to get my foot in the door to returnnto my career.  I got audited by the tax man that year.  I guess they aren’t used to seeing daycare costs higher than wages.  But they didn’t know my mother.

I can imagine that... I mean... My MIL now seems more difficult than before, but it's still not BPD level! And I don't have the same wiring to her as you and I have to our mothers... I can't imagine how you stayed sane through it all Methuen. It must have been really rough at times. I recognize where you are now and how you were able to protect your children from your BPD mother. It must have taken an incredible amount of strength.

I totally understand the intensity of your reactions to her behavior.  

Limiting her  time alone with your kids, and donating that plastic pumpkin to a second hand store or charity are things you have control over.  If she says things to make you feel guilty- that’s another red flag.  You don’t have to take on that guilt feeling because you’ve stated your wishes and she isn’t able to respect them.  Thats on her.  

I think she is the unreasonable one.  Don’t beat yourself up because of your emotional reactions to her boundary busting.  Just donate the pumpkin.  When she asks where it is, you can tell her kindly that it went to a charity and leave it at that.  No explanations and no justifying.

 

Thank you for the validation. I will take the hug.  

[Methuen]

My nose is in it and I find it hard to take a step back... And H is not willing to talk about it. He usually helps me so much in putting into words the patterns, which helps me to enter problem solving mode, and when it comes to his mother, he goes right to anger and stonewalling.

This is an interesting observation.

Goodness ! Everyday ! I would be pulling my hair out ! How did you manage to stay sane through it ?

I don't know that I did.  It wasn't a great time.  Sadly, as bad as it was then, now that she's 86 and basically a waify dependent invalid determined to stay in her home, it's worse than it was in all the previous stages. At least then she could drive and socialize with friends.  Now she can't see or hear, she can't do things because she has advanced Parkinson's, she has ministrokes (been having them for about 7 years), she has trouble talking, and she has significant cognitive decline.  She can't do up buttons anymore, there is evidence on her toilet seat that she has trouble cleaning herself, she can't prepare meals for herself any more and only warms up meals that people bring her, and yet the person at home care who does assessments said mom didn't even qualify for assisted living.  I'm speculating that this is because mom is a nurse and knows how to answer the questions, and the assessor just takes her answers as fact, without asking mom to "show her", and without getting any input from family i.e. me.

So how do I stay sane?  I returned to work from what a think was a well-deserved retirement. It was the only way to keep a safe distance from her and feel safe.  When I told her I was going back to work, that brought out an epic   rage because I was making myself unavailable to mom.

I wouldn't say I'm happy or feeling particularly well.  But I'm getting by.

I think it's great you are setting boundaries now - early when your children are still young.  I didn't understand much about my mom's "complexity" until just a few years ago.  So yes, I saved my kids from "grandma's daycare" by putting them into real daycare, but somehow I didn't manage to save myself from my mother.  That's a work in progress.  I shouldn't have to "work" to feel safe from her, if what I really want is to be retired and do things retired people do.
You are much more aware, and setting these boundaries with her while you and her are both younger will pay dividends for you down the road, hopefully.  You are working to establish healthy patterns, which is good.  I wonder if it feels like she is being controlling sometimes?

She talks in a way where she imposes things.. like : "You will come have a beer with us before diner" instead of "Are you guys free before diner? We'd love to have you over for a beer if you feel like it!"...It's all in the framing.

Yes yes.  This is my mother too.  "Go get the cookies and bring them out to eat.  You don't have a choice".  (She actually said that last part when I brought her visiting niece over for a visit and the niece hesitated saying she had just eaten.) Instead of "Would you like to have some cookies?"

She talks like her words is final. And it then takes an extra effort on my part to say : "well... No." And then she says she didn't mean anything by it, or that she sometimes thins I'm sensitive, or she just pout...

. The gaslighting burns eh? Grrrrr.  Next time you happen to see your T (if you're still seeing one), this stuff would be worth bringing up.  I'm wondering if you think your H would consider going as well, so you two could work on finding mitigating strategies as a team in an ideal world...  

I mean... If I don't agree with her, like I shared I wanted to make a painting and art room in what used to be the dining room in my house (currently a play room for my children)...Methuen, the face she made... She disapproved. With all of her body and mind, she disapproved and pouted. I was genuinely taken aback by her reaction. She argued with me ! Saying it would be better to do this art room upstairs, where I have my office, because there was more light... My H doesn't even think twice, he marks her up as his mother being his mother, but to me this was out of bounds... Like she was emotionnally invested that I absolutely have a dining table. So weird.

Here's my take on this.  You are partnered with her son.  She really loves her big dining room table in a "formal place".  Not important to us, but very important to her.  She wants her boy (and therefore you) to have this too.  And she can't  imagine a world where you would want something different.  She seems to be having trouble "allowing" you to do things differently from her.  Cases in point: the importance of candy, of trinkets (i.e plastic pumpkins), and of you having the same parental values as her.  Is it possible she hasn't differentiated from her son?  That she struggles to accept that he (and by proxy you) might do things differently than she did, and that this would be ok?  She doesn't seem to be able to manage your boundaries, respect your way of doing things differently from her, and just accept that it's ok to be different.  With her body language she seemed to communicate to you that the only acceptable option was to having the big dining room table in the big dining room space.  Meanwhile she tells you what would work in your house (playroom in your office upstairs etc).  This is crazy and quite out of line.  For what it's worth, your ideas sound fantastic.  Playroom in the open space on the main floor where you can see what is going on and be "together" even if you are doing different things (eg you in the kitchen and they playing). It's logical.  It's safe.  It's pragmatic for a young family. It's also pretty trendy.  So your spidy sense that something was off and her disapproval  was unwelcome, well good on you Riv3rW0lf.  She could watch the home shows on TV, because your ideas are being put into action by any number of celebrity professionals giving young families the makeovers they need to have their homes work better for them.

That was a long winded way of validating your thoughts and reactions.  It sounds to me like you have very legitimate reasons to be feeling what you are feeling. Yes perhaps there are some emotional reactions that might amplified because of history with your own mother. But, maybe because of your history with your mother, you have been quite accomodating to fit with your people pleasing self.  Regardless, you have concerns that are valid when it comes to her overstepping her boundaries.

The challenge for you is navigating a relationship with her, managing her availability to your grandchildren because she can't respect your parenting values, and keeping your H somewhat happy since it's his mother.  It's not easy to walk that tightrope - because you're on it for the long haul.  I don't have advice for your situation, as mine was different.  I was the daughter, not the DIL, and I saw my mom's dysfunction and didn't defend her or ignore it.  My current goal is to not be afraid of my mom.  And I have not even come close to resolving that, and I don't know that I will ever be able to achieve that goal.  There is no emotional safety.  My hope and prayer for you is that you are not afraid of your MIL, and won't ever have to be.  Difficult is one thing, dysfunctional is quite another.  Has she ever raged at you or your H?  If not, that is a very good thing.

I'm a big believer in letting natural consequences be the teacher.  Just keep donating those trinkets and dollar store items, and hopefully she eventually figures out other more acceptable ways to spend her money.  Another thought: are plastic pumpkins even recyclable these days?  I had one of those when I was a kid...which was decades before recycling was invented and global sustainability was an idea.  Stick to your guns on the sugar.  There is so much research and science on sugar - it's much more harmful than most people are aware.  And when she texts before coming over - thank her.  Give her positive attention wherever you can.  Just like a child - it's better to catch them being good, than not.

[Riv3rW0lf]

 Here's my take on this.  You are partnered with her son.  She really loves her big dining room table in a "formal place".  Not important to us, but very important to her.  She wants her boy (and therefore you) to have this too.  And she can't  imagine a world where you would want something different.  She seems to be having trouble "allowing" you to do things differently from her.  Cases in point: the importance of candy, of trinkets (i.e plastic pumpkins), and of you having the same parental values as her.  Is it possible she hasn't differentiated from her son?  That she struggles to accept that he (and by proxy you) might do things differently than she did, and that this would be ok?  

I've given it some thoughts... It is possible that this is what is behind the dynamic, her unable to differentiate between her son and her, wanting him to continue the family way... and now I am starting to wonder if there isn't a bit of jealousy as well on her part.

I don't know what happened between them, my H told me a bit about the narcissistic tendencies of his grandparents, but always painted his mother as a martyr, abused by his grandmother. And I bought into it.

I now think back on various comments she made...

H and I got married in a hurry, we basically eloped, so that I could move with him out of province. And a couple days after, I went to get him after one of his training, and his parents took me there... I remember one of the first thing she said to me was : "My son is protective of me, he will always take care of me" which was a big surprise for me, because it sounded a bit like a threat, or her wanting to put me in my place, and was also very different from what my H was telling me about us VS his FOO... He is highly independant and told me many times not to worry, that his FOO came second to our relationship, and he expected the same from me. Us against the world kinda thing.

Then when we finally saw him, his mother basically jumped in his arms. And his father looked at me and said : "Look how well behaved my son is, he knows his mother comes first." ... The truth is, I had volontarily waited and that evening, my H thanked me for waiting behind, because he was anxious about it, he didn't know who to kiss first... I remember feeling validated. He had seen me, my action and decision to wait, to make it easier for everyone involved and he was grateful. I felt relieved because I was thinking how rude his parents seemed so far... And I was glad that he wasn't?

I never really thought about it again, now I see those as indices to the deep dynamic, that I don't quite grasp yet... But I wish I did, if only to "arm" myself better emotionnally while navigating all this.

A pattern once again emerged... Since I stood up to her last Monday. She cooked and called my H for him to pick it up. H just came up to tell me he would be going there to get the food his mother cooked... She did the exact same thing last time... I thought it was some kind of olive branch, now I am not too sure. She always does through H after I stand up to her... Feels like a weird message intended for me now. That his son takes care of her emotions? Maybe she imagined I actively ask him not to go get free food? If I did, he would likely side with me, that's the worst of it. But why would I enter this pettiness of a fight? Just to prove a point? It would only strain my relationship with H. It just doesn't feel like a coincidence anymore. It is a pattern. And I am wondering what it is about.

I guess that's where boundaries come into play? 

I told H I was going to the playground with the children, which I really wanted to do before he got offered this, and he said he would go by himself. He seems completely unaware of the play here. Just told me to : "hurt her again to get more food" while laughing.

I don't know what to make of all this. Starting to think I really am too sensitive.

[Notwendy]

No, you aren't too sensitive. Your MIL sounds more disordered than you may think. I try to avoid over labeling since we are so tuned into PD's but it is a spectrum and someone can have traits - which can create difficulties.

When reading about marriage, I came across the idea that in a marriage, we could play out our own family issues with the hope of resolving them. Actually we are the ones who can do this work ourselves but this idea intrigued me. My BPD (NPD?) mother's behavior is overt in the sense of anger rages, disturbed behavior. My MIL seemed to be the ideal housewife/mother. So where is the match? There's a lot of co-dependency and passive behavior in my H's family. It's not a match in severity but MIL and my father shared co-dependent traits and there were common patterns.

I am not saying your MIL has BPD but her behaviors are similar in some ways- ignoring your boundaries, emotional enmeshment with your H and child? You are not over sensitive- these can cause issues. It may be that her behaviors remind you of your mother and so you feel an emotional reaction to them, but that also doesn't mean it's all on you.

[Riv3rW0lf]

When reading about marriage, I came across the idea that in a marriage, we could play out our own family issues with the hope of resolving them.

Yes, since you mentioned it on one of our first discussions, I have giving it a lot of thoughts.

But I chose my husband, I didn't choose his parents. However, I agree that for us to be married and still comfortable with each other, it does mean that we emotionnally match. And I did find a pattern that keeps coming back between us.But I didn't choose his parents.

But then, the fact that I am triggered by his mother, like you say, likely means I am replaying something specific WITH HER too. Like our trauma match... Else, I would not be as bothered by it as I am...

I think it is the invalidation honestly. They do have a lot of egocentrist traits. Everything is always brought back to them, and if they truly can't, they just change the subject. His father is planing a trip to Belgium this winter, I listened to him, then I shared I had spent 2 months in France, and what I had loved about it, and he cut me off, saying : " Well if you haven't seen Belgium, it's like you've never been to Europe." I mean.. what a weird comment to make?  It's invalidating but I laughed it off, I am starting to get used to him being like this and I don't really care anymore.

But her... I think it's the emotional enmeshement she tries to have with my children, with her son. Like I can sense she is clingy and it disturbs me. It reminds me of my mother jealousy of my father and I relationship, which was all deeply disturbing to me. And it is disturbing to see a mother this clingy with her son... Especially since this son was their scapegoat. It just doesn't add up...

She put a lot of pressure for my children to have their father's last name, always commented how they looked like me with a frown. She was pushed by her own MIL to be a certain way with her kids, and blamed her for all the decisions she took as a mother, because she could never stand up to her MIL. Everyone around her is always doing something to upset her. My H tells me how all her family is dysfunctional, and refused to invite them to our wedding. Like, to protect her or paint her as a martyr. But I am now seeing the bigger picture...how she always talks about the lives of other people, of their bad decision, shaming them for being depressed or because their son isn't succeeding well enough... And it looks like she expected me to do the same for her? To just bend over and let her have her ways?

She doesn't scream, she doesn't actively abuse, but she seems dangerous for my relationship with my children though. And I cannot trust her. Her behavior is covert and I can now see just how two faces she is. She can be easily dismissed, my H often comments how she is a bit slow, not very smart, and for him, this is enough to just dismiss her, and not consider her dangerous. Maybe she resents that dismissal. I didn't dismiss her, but truly now she gives me no choice but to do it too, because she is being increasingly out of line.

I had hope for a normal relationship with at least one grandparent.

I am lucky I have my stepmother. She is the only safe person in my life right now and has been consistently pulling my father toward being more genuine, less self-centered too.

But MIL gives me anxiety now.

[Methuen]

"My son is protective of me, he will always take care of me"

"Look how well behaved my son is, he knows his mother comes first."

Is it just me, or does this seem wrong to others?  Those are heavy hitting statements directed at you.

It's interesting how the traditional wedding ceremony has the father "give away" the bride to the new husband.  It seems like your mom can't "let go" of her boy, to his wife?  He's still "hers first" in the minds of your in-laws it seems according to their statements. 

She cooked and called my H for him to pick it up. H just came up to tell me he would be going there to get the food his mother cooked... She did the exact same thing last time... It just doesn't feel like a coincidence anymore. It is a pattern. And I am wondering what it is about.

Here's my take - but full disclosure - reading this was a bit of a trigger for me. 

She's getting something from this.  What exactly she's getting is a good question.  But I doubt that it's innocent.  My mom did this my whole  married life.  A phone call (or the last 10 years a text) would come and we would get told that she had _____ ready for us to pick up.  We didn't have a choice.  It meant we were expected to get in our vehicle and go get it.  It became an obligation.  We didn't want these things.  Often it was rhubarb cake.  We don't eat cake.  I have IBS, and had to change my diet.  She didn't care.  At some point another cake would come.  They went on the compost, after my H ate what he could.  Of course we talked to her.  It didn't matter.  Our needs didn't matter.

"I made it for you! You need to come get it".  It was controlling.  Somehow telling her we didn't want the food meant we didn't love her, or were rejecting her.

It was also currency.

"I do so much for you!  I just need this one little thing from you!

My advice would be to have a conversation with your H.  It sounds like he sees it as harmless, but I have doubts that it's harmless.  Like I disclosed, I'm coming from a place of having the things she did (eg cooking food) used against me. 

Another way of looking at this pattern you've described, is to observe that it's her son she calls to pick up the food, not you.

This gets her time alone with him.  And attention.

Hopefully she's not using him to meet her emotional needs when he goes to pick up the food.

I guess that's where boundaries come into play? 

This seems like a good idea.

I don't know what to make of all this. Starting to think I really am too sensitive.

No no no Riv3rw0lf.  Who has told you that you are too sensitive?  Don't accept that.

There are real flags here IMHO.  Your concerns are valid.  Listen to your gut feelings if something feels off. 

[Riv3rW0lf]

Here's my take - but full disclosure - reading this was a bit of a trigger for me.  

She's getting something from this.  What exactly she's getting is a good question.  But I doubt that it's innocent.  My mom did this my whole   married life.  A phone call (or the last 10 years a text) would come and we would get told that she had _____ ready for us to pick up.  We didn't have a choice.  It meant we were expected to get in our vehicle and go get it.  It became an obligation.  We didn't want these things.  Often it was rhubarb cake.  We don't eat cake.  I have IBS, and had to change my diet.  She didn't care.  At some point another cake would come.  They went on the compost, after my H ate what he could.  Of course we talked to her.  It didn't matter.  Our needs didn't matter.

"I made it for you! You need to come get it".  It was controlling.  Somehow telling her we didn't want the food meant we didn't love her, or were rejecting her.

It was also currency.

"I do so much for you!  I just need this one little thing from you!

My advice would be to have a conversation with your H.  It sounds like he sees it as harmless, but I have doubts that it's harmless.  Like I disclosed, I'm coming from a place of having the things she did (eg cooking food) used against me.  

I mean, to be fair, at first, she would ask us if we wanted whatever she had made. And H and I had a talk about it and agreed that it was harmless, she was bored and it seemed like this was just something she wanted to do... plus, H loves free food so I mean, why would I say no? I felt icky, but I assumed it was my own trauma talking from my BPD mother.

But it does now start to feel like currency...the more she "gives" us, the more she allows herself to speak up against me or critic me? I wonder if my memories are even right, but there was a steady increase in how openly critical she became, going as far as "educating" my children in front of me. And how she stopped asking if we wanted the food, and now will just text H to tell him his father is dropping something she made, or to come pick up food.

She used to ask me first if it was ok, she doesn't anymore...

One time she even told H : "If she doesn't know how to cook it, just tell her to call me, I will explain her." That was awfully patronizing, considering my mother showed me how to cook when I was 10yo, had me cook for her nursing home at 14yo. And MIL knows that. It's like she paints me as this know-nothing wife and mother. It's hard not to take it personally. I really need to bite my tongue at times. If there is one good thing my BPD mother did for me, it is showing me how to take care of a house and a family. She did that.

This whole thing with MIL makes me miss my mom... The tender side of her anyway, the one that goes away when I get too close...   this illness.

Another way of looking at this pattern you've described, is to observe that it's her son she calls to pick up the food, not you.

This gets her time alone with him.  And attention.

Hopefully she's not using him to meet her emotional needs when he goes to pick up the food.

Last time he told me he didn't notice anything. He said he talked with his father the whole time of their housing projects, of our upgrades projects, and of how my business is shaping up. I was pissed at him a little bit, felt like he was using my achievements to prop himself up in front of his parents... And it likely is exactly what he is unconsciously doing. But said his mother didn't talk about what had happened. It feels like I am dealing with a different person than he is.


 

 No no no Riv3rw0lf.  Who has told you that you are too sensitive?  Don't accept that.

There are real flags here IMHO.  Your concerns are valid.  Listen to your gut feelings if something feels off.  

Thank you Methuen, brought tears to me eyes. Thank you for the validation. Who told me I was too sensitive? I guess mostly everyone, my whole life !   And H truly snaps when I have a stand-up with his mother. Like he wants to maintain the status quo, the covert ways of his family, the perfect image? But I don't speak their language and I value authenticity too much for it.

And to be honest, seeing how dysfunctional MIL actually is making me feel guilty for BPD mother. H doesn't want her in my life and gets angry when I answer her mails, like when grandma died... Yet won't deal with his own mother inappropriate behaviors, and leaves me to deal with it.

I told him earlier I would not be seeing MIL and FIL by myself with the children anymore. That he would have to be there. He doesn't come to see my father, why would I put all this effort for his family? Why do I need to be the one appeasing his mother?

I also think I will ask him not to accept as much food from her either. Will start pulling back a bit. Pumpkin will be donated. And if she asks about it, I will tell her the truth. Hopefully the behaviors stop and she starts respecting our limits, and being more respectful.

Thankfully, another good thing came from BPD mother... I don't fear regular conflict and arguments... MIL is simply not as scary as my own mother can be.

...

It's not her I fear, it's my husband. It's that he actually starts protecting her "against me". This is what I fear.

I fear that HE starts telling me to send our children to her house, when she asks for it... It's him and his conditionning I fear. I have seen bits and pieces of this conditionning, usually can work around it, but those were heavy fights... One I remember particularly was about how his father touched me in inappropriate ways. Took him 4 years to deal with it, I had to cry, trying to explain him that I froze, that I couldn't say anything. H didn't get the trauma I carried back then. It takes him an awful lot of courage and sometimes he does turn against me, and asks me to swallow my pill, and when I refuse, it's a mess. This is what I fear if I stand up too often to her... Not her. H's conditionning from his family...

[Notwendy]

Yes, of course we choose our partners, not their parents, but attraction has aspects we are not conscious of and is influenced by our parents. We didn't choose our in laws directly but - when adults choose each other romantically- each one has been raised with certain dynamics, examples of relationships, and a sense of "normal" and this has an influence on who we feel a "fit" with.

Surely my H chose me, not my mother. I chose him, not his parents. But there's still a fit there. To simplify it-  his Dad's family was disordered and he was emotionally deprived in a way. He married my H's mother who has co-dependent traits- and while emotions were not expressed, she over functioned in her caretaking at home. That's what H saw as an example of a relationship. My example was Dad being co-dependent on BPD mother and I learned co-dependent behaviors. Both H and I saw co-dependency as a form of love but I had hoped it was a way to be loved and found that being co-dependent enabled dysfunction in my own relationship.

You didn't choose your MIL but your MIL has already had 20+ years of emotional influence on your H before he ever met you.

Understanding our family patterns isn't to blame but to see where we may have felt disordered dynamics as "normal" and familiar and how we can learn new ones.

Your family's relationship with your MIL is going to be a nuanced path to navigate because what you see as triggering and disordered may feel "normal" to your H. I understand your perspective of thinking is it you, due to being raised with more obvious disorder. I felt that way too. If my H asserted his FOO was normal- well it was normal compared to mine. Your MIL is more "normal" when compared to your mother but that doesn't mean all of her behavior has to be acceptable to you. You may see the issues better than your H does as this is what he was raised with.

[Imatter33]

I wanted to talk a little bit about the rage you said you were feeling. It resonated with me in the case of my mother-in-law also.

There are certainly similarities in the poor boundaries that exist between my H and his family, and a layer of enmeshment.
What makes me flare up on the inside is something akin to jealousy. We as a family came to the difficult decision to go NC with mom. Who we know is likely BPD, …….

but any maladaptive dynamics within my Hs family tend to be swept under the rug. Ugh!

It pisses me off bc of my own complex emotions. I typically wish to cut off communication with anyone who I feel doesn’t “ get boundaries” but there’s problems with that. I’ve mentioned before I’m not getting better at implementing boundaries by cutting ppl off.

I’ve had to swallow my irritation over and over again with my MIL framing problems. “ we need to talk about Thanksgiving, vs. “ Do you have plans for Thanksgiving?”
“Im stopping by,” vs. mind if I do?

I become inwardly Piping hot. And something as small as her wording issues doesn’t warrant it.

My H will typically respond not today. Or no.

And usually it is the end of it.

I hope to learn the skills I need to with her bc I think his parents are not toxic, but my reactions to them can be!


I admire your ability to say something in the moment to MIL! Good job!
And reading a little bit more about your MIL…. I do hear a competitive edge in her to want to be most important? (To her son) Is that accurate?


But all this to say… is the rage you feel at all linked to dealing with a very
difficult parent, and missing your own?

[Riv3rW0lf]

Surely my H chose me, not my mother. I chose him, not his parents. But there's still a fit there. To simplify it-  his Dad's family was disordered and he was emotionally deprived in a way. He married my H's mother who has co-dependent traits- and while emotions were not expressed, she over functioned in her caretaking at home. That's what H saw as an example of a relationship. My example was Dad being co-dependent on BPD mother and I learned co-dependent behaviors. Both H and I saw co-dependency as a form of love but I had hoped it was a way to be loved and found that being co-dependent enabled dysfunction in my own relationship.

You didn't choose your MIL but your MIL has already had 20+ years of emotional influence on your H before he ever met you.

Understanding our family patterns isn't to blame but to see where we may have felt disordered dynamics as "normal" and familiar and how we can learn new ones.

The thing is...our family's couldn't be anymore different than they are..

My parents separated when I was 2yo, while his parents are high school sweet hearts.

BPD mother was overfonctionning. Despite her alcoholism, she managed to buy herself a house in her forties, she changed jobs relentlessly, as per the low self image of her illness, but still managed to scratch enough money to take care of us. There was a lot of rage in our house, of resentment, but always a good meal and dessert, made from scratch, and our our house was always perfectly clean. I still have this memory of her coming from work, not taking the time to take off her work shoes and habit, and raging in the kitchen, slamming the doors. But then we would sit down together in front of a perfect family meal, with vegetables and salads. Every. Night.

My MIL, on the other side, gave herself diabetes from junk food. She can cook, but bought a lot of pre-maid and restaurant meals. She was a stay at home mother, yet had trouble maintaining her house and cooking for her children. She says herself when her H came home she would stop doing anything. And this is still the pattern... H says his mother cooks, but every time I am there, FIL is the one cooking and offering us drinks and snacks. Or MIL tells him what to bring over, seldom standing up herself to get her own things. She does things, of course, but my mother was much more industrious, despite her illness.

MIL doesn't scream, and never raises her voice, yet H told me recently she once slapped him in the face when he was 5yo. First time I had heard it. My mother was also sometimes physically violent, so I guess this is a match.

She fell sick when he was a teenager, and he basically fell through the cracks. On my end, my mother stopped drinking when I was 9yo, and the abuse morphed to complete neglect as she was deeply depressed and suicidal for a few years, before I moved to my father's house... So I guess this could be another match.

His father is government man with the big pension plans and the steady job. While my father is an entrepreneur who changed a lot through life, always had his own business and completed another degree at 50yo because he was curious about it... Just very different family model. Both our fathers though are very self-centered...

My father lost his family when he was 24yo, while his father is deeply enmeshed with what I gather is a narcissistic grandmother...

I don't know... It feels like there was an awful lot of neglect and abuse in his house too... But that MIL is much more covert and low functioning than my mother was. H must have learned to just stonewall her, it's second nature to him, he doesn't even think twice about it, while I struggle to do the same. Because I learned to talk it out with my BPD mother, even if it led to screaming... BPD mother would not leave something unsaid... While MIL will stop talking altogether, and even say she didn't say or do what she literally just did...

[Riv3rW0lf]

There are certainly similarities in the poor boundaries that exist between my H and his family, and a layer of enmeshment.
What makes me flare up on the inside is something akin to jealousy. We as a family came to the difficult decision to go NC with mom. Who we know is likely BPD, …….

but any maladaptive dynamics within my Hs family tend to be swept under the rug. Ugh!

Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. My H has no issue calling my mother abusive and terrible, he makes absolutely no excuses for her behavior, yet he refuses to acknowledge his own mother dysfunction and deal with it.

It pisses me off bc of my own complex emotions. I typically wish to cut off communication with anyone who I feel doesn’t “ get boundaries” but there’s problems with that. I’ve mentioned before I’m not getting better at implementing boundaries by cutting ppl off.

I’ve had to swallow my irritation over and over again with my MIL framing problems. “ we need to talk about Thanksgiving, vs. “ Do you have plans for Thanksgiving?”
“Im stopping by,” vs. mind if I do?

I become inwardly Piping hot. And something as small as her wording issues doesn’t warrant it.

My H will typically respond not today. Or no.

And usually it is the end of it.

I hope to learn the skills I need to with her bc I think his parents are not toxic, but my reactions to them can be!

I hear you... I also feel like my reflex is to cut contact, when I could just have boundaries and stand by them.

I admire your ability to say something in the moment to MIL! Good job!
And reading a little bit more about your MIL…. I do hear a competitive edge in her to want to be most important? (To her son) Is that accurate?

But all this to say… is the rage you feel at all linked to dealing with a very
difficult parent, and missing your own?

When I started this thread, I hadn't realize the importance of MIL's dysfunctions.

Since writing back to Notwendy this morning, I came to the conclusion that part of my rage stems from seeing, in MIL, the exact same dysfunctional behaviors that my own BPD mother has: critics parenting decision, tells me how to decorate my house, offer string-attached food items, demands instead of requests, tries to emotionally enmesh with my daughter and son, is hurtful on purpose using personal things she knows will get to me, etc. and hides behind a waify attitude. If my mother gets depressed and suicidal when things don't go her way, MIL cries and shuts down. And both refuses to take responsibility for what they do and say, instead sweeping it all under the rug and acting like nothing happened. And we should all somehow forget about it. They are both awfully clingy to their grandchildren and use emotional manipulation and coercion to get what they want.

My BPD mother though respected my need of having healthy eating habits, while MIL just shove them with sugar the second my back is turned.

Anyway...because my own BPD mother rages, H pushed me very hard to cut her off and will now get angry when I mention wanting to reconsider.

If I can put boundaries in place with MIL, then why can't I do the same with my own mother?

To be fair to my own BPD mother, she does have tender moments, that I don't see in MIL. My BPD mother, despite her illness, has been able to acknowledge she hurt me, she once said out loud : "no I am hurting my daughter right now and I don't want to do that". And she'd stop whatever she was doing that was upsetting. I do believe she tries her best. And maybe, at a distance, in another city, just maybe we could find a balance? As long as I keep my boundaries clear and my children sheltered?

MIL seems as threatening to me emotionally for my children and my relationship with my H... But because she doesn't scream, somehow, H thinks I should just accept her behaviors? On account of not hurting her?

It seems deeply unfair to me... My mother is mentally ill, she isn't a monster. If it wasn't for this freaking PTSD I developped, maybe I could manage her... I miss her good sides... Because she does have good sides. I struggle to find anything good about MIL, but then I am triggered by her right now, so not exactly neutral. 

[Imatter33]

“It seems deeply unfair to me..”. My mother is mentally ill, she isn't a monster. If it wasn't for this freaking PTSD I developped, maybe I could manage her... I miss her good sides... Because she does have good sides. I struggle to find anything good about MIL, but then I am triggered by her right now, so not exactly neutral. 

I just understand that so well. It seems so unfair. The logical part of me knows that the whole of it has nothing to do with fairness, but stability. Safety. Trust.

I think if I’m not triggered by my grief and the unfairness I can handle Hs family so much better.

To some extent I worry your MIL has something deeper going on than being neurotic.  I know how intelligent you are by your posts and reflections. I hope that you will further your resolve to implement boundaries with a less threatening person than your mom.

What I mean by that is… our moms are not in our life right now bc something did seem rather threatening? Just an educated guess…  and there is opportunity to work on the PTSD responses we have with others…  so that maybe one day contact can resume with mom(s)

Bc we’ve effectively learned to disarm the trigger.

I sure hope so. Hug.

[livednlearned]

Riv3rW0lf, these in-law relationships are so tough. The dynamics of what you write about are similar in many ways to my stepdaughter. SD25 actively, relentlessly seeks to get her needs met in nearly undetectable, aggressive ways. I am most often the target of that aggression, a position I happened to also be in through most of my childhood.

It is no surprise that you feel triggered to anger and rage over a pumpkin from the dollar store. Your nervous system knows exactly what's happening. A friend of mine quotes a psychologist who says, "hysterical comes from historical." Things that really set us off usually go way back.

You have a lot of power in this situation because your MIL wants what is clearly yours. That's not the best way to say it, Methuen said it better describing what seems like MIL's inability to individuate from her son. Except that's a common stage mothers go through with sons who marry. What seems problematic is that MIL lacks the awareness she needs to help her love and let go. She is encountering resistance and isn't learning. It's more like she's doubled down and is finding ways to do it her way, despite your wishes. It's childish, and not evolved, and it also doesn't seem like full-blown pathology.

If she isn't fully pathologic, it seems like you have some options. The difference between SD25 and your MIL is that I sense SD25 wants to see me unmoored just as much as she wants to win whatever battle she's waging.

Whereas it doesn't seem to be that way with MIL -- her fight seems more about getting her way. She wants things she cannot have and isn't learning from you or your H. She's a steamroller.

If MIL isn't pathologic, she could perhaps be firmly reasoned with, but only if you feel it's manageable given your own rage/anger. What are your thoughts?

Using something like the sugar to draw not just a line, but spell out how you feel the need to enact a genuine boundary, since thus far it's been a mix of asking her to comply and in-the-moment boundaries, like correcting her.

Maybe focusing on one thing would send the right message, in the right amount. For example, "MIL, help me out here. I've been very clear about what we value in this family, like I've said about no sugar. This seems hard for you to do. What would you do in my situation? If someone doesn't listen to what you value, after being clear with them, what do you do? What would you recommend I do?"

I mean, there aren't a whole lot of options other than minimize time together. That's the boundary hanging in the air (she may not recognize that the boundary has been enacted in small doses, given she spent time with your kids over the summer).

I wasn't able to do that with SD25 because she's deeply disordered, but I did do that with H, who was by proxy allowing SD25 to roll over my boundaries.

With H, I made it about one thing. He was allowing SD25 to arrange visits with her then BF so they could meet halfway on weekends at our house. We lived halfway between them, and SD25 would tell H that they were going to be at our house on day/date, then H would tell me after the fact.

Many times, BF would arrive early, or they would be coming on a weekend when I had friends coming over. In light of all the other aggressions coming from SD25, it pushed me over the   edge. It was my T who suggested I present it to H as a question, with advice to keep it focused on how to solve it, versus whether it was a reasonable request in the first place. Of course, it doesn't work if you are dealing with emotional fireworks (learned this the hard way). I had to be at a relatively calm place and have a solution of my own if he was unwilling to meet me halfway.

Fortunately, he got that what I was asking for was reasonable. He also recognized that one of the solutions, if no one was going to check with me about SD25's weekend plans, was to make plans of my own and he knew the optics of that weren't good.   If nothing else, it would signal to others outside our kooky blended family that something weird was going on.

I also agree with Couscous that MIL sounds more covertly aggressive than passive, and if that's the case and she is in it to win it, reasoning with her might not work. Although it would set up logical consequences for her that she would have a hard time arguing with. "I asked you how to handle this issue about giving the kids sugar, knowing how we feel about it, and you weren't able to offer a solution. So this is where we're at, either H or I have to be present when the kids are with you and that's not always possible so the schedule is more limited."

Passive aggression would be more like saying she'll be there, then not showing up. Or agreeing to something she then doesn't do. Your MIL is actively manipulative. I like what George Simon (same author Couscous linked to, who wrote the book In Sheep's Clothing: Dealing with Manipulative People), "manipulative people are expert at fighting in subtle and almost undetectable ways."

MIL is fighting with you.

Simon goes on to write something I find really interesting, "Most of the time, when they're trying to take advantage or gain the upper hand, you don't even know you're in a fight until you're well on your way to losing."

That's what really jacked me up with my stepdaughter. I hated the feeling that I was losing battles in my own home. By the time I realized what was happening, I was already activated and my emotions were on tilt. Simon writes, "When you're being manipulated, chances are someone is fighting with you for position, advantage, or gain, but in a way that's difficult to readily see. Covert aggression is at the heart of most manipulation."

Those extra type feelings are the ones I'm responsible for dealing with. SD25 has many problematic behaviors but my emotions in the red zone are mine to own.

Your posts indicate that you can assert boundaries, and sure, maybe you feel a surge of emotions for a few days that aren't ideal. With how much courage you bring to this work, I wouldn't be surprised if that intensity lessens over time. Sometimes, my intense emotions also tick up because they're compounding with other stuff, and it feels like I'm back to square one but really it's just a new configuration.

It was helpful for me to recognize that some people really are full-on aggressing with me, and if it feels pathologic, I go straight to boundaries with little discussion. Hopefully your MIL has the ability to recognize she is playing a game she can actually lose.

You probably won't ever like her, and she'll probably stay stupid over-reaching things that irritate you to no end. It's more about letting her come to her own conclusions that this won't end well if she keeps fighting in plain sight to do things her way.

And fingers crossed she doesn't have a PD.  

[Methuen]

Re: Anyone else triggered much more than they should be by passive-aggressiveness?

uh -yes.

Many people know my story - I returned to work a second job out of retirement - to set a boundary for my mom.  I'm not available to her like when I was retired.  It is unfortunate that my new boss is a hoarder, passive-aggressive and many other things.  Yes - she triggers me.  The good news is that I enjoy what I am doing and the clients that I work with.  The boss - not so much. Feels like shi_ _ y bad luck that my boss is who she is.  

But I want to go back to the original question on the thread:  "Anyone else triggered much more than they should be by passive-aggressiveness?"

When I read this as the thread started, I was troubled inside...by the "much more than they should be" part.  This feels like a negative judgement.  I think that what you are experiencing with your MIL is real Riv3rw0lf.  I think that what we all experience with our "people" is real.  But somehow, thinking that "we shouldn't be triggered as much as we are" is suggestive that our feelings are bad or wrong, and that is somehow a reflection of us.  I think we were groomed to feel bad about ourselves.

I want to challenge that notion.  I think a fair question would be "Anyone else triggered by passive aggressiveness in people other than their pwBPD?"

Let's think about this a bit.  Why wouldn't we be triggered?  One thing my T has checked me on many times, is that it's not reasonable to expect that we shouldn't have these feelings.  What we can work on, is how to manage them once we notice them.

I think we have to forgive ourselves for our internal feelings sometimes.  Acknowledge them.  Process them, and then have strategies to deal with them.  But I wouldn't want anyone to feel bad about themselves for having reactions to passive aggressive people because of past abuse.  I'm not sure that would be fair to ourselves.

I dont' know if this makes sense.  Just a thought I'm sharing.

[Couscous]

I am not at all surprised to see how so many of us here have married mother enmeshed men…myself included.

The enmeshment is the real problem though, not whether or not our MILs have PDs, because the problem isn’t actually our MILs at all— it’s our husbands’ failure to separate/emancipate. I actually suspect that the person who you are really angry at is your H — and not only because of the double standard.  

My H’s recommendation is to ask your H to read the Ken Adam’s book, Mother Enmeshed Men, and then let him figure out for himself that he has a (big) problem. I also highly recommend that you watch all of Ken Adams and John Taylor’s seminars and interviews on www.overcomingenmeshment.com. This will help you to not take your H’s behavior personally and maybe even understand just how difficult it is for him to be in this terrible position.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I am not at all surprised to see how so many of us here have married mother enmeshed men…myself included.

The enmeshment is the real problem though, not whether or not our MILs have PDs, because the problem isn’t actually our MILs at all— it’s our husbands’ failure to separate/emancipate. I actually suspect that the person who you are really angry at is your H — and not only because of the double standard.  

My H’s recommendation is to ask your H to read the Ken Adam’s book, Mother Enmeshed Men, and then let him figure out for himself that he has a (big) problem. I also highly recommend that you watch all of Ken Adams and John Taylor’s seminars and interviews on www.overcomingenmeshment.com. This will help you to not take your H’s behavior personally and maybe even understand just how difficult it is for him to be in this terrible position.

I will take a look but for what it is worth, I don't think my H is enmeshed with his mother, not entirely anyway? He left his home province when he was 20yo, was away for more than 15years. And he has no issues telling her no and often takes my defense in front of her. He told me many times that she came second, and to deal with her like I saw fit, and that he would stand by me.

Just yesterday I told him I thought we maybe shouldn't accept as much food from her and he was a bit unnerved (that I was still talking about his mother) and said : "Sure no problem, if it can help you feel better."

My fear of him is not based on facts from my relationship. It is likely based on something else. I think it is the ideas she put in my head, coupled with how H acts when his father is not around...

It's like he is enmeshed with her only when his father leaves... Like there are two him, one independant man when both his parents are there, and one enmeshed man when his mother is by herself? It's very weird... But I do think that both men that he is have me and our children come first, and does not consider her needs before ours.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I want to challenge that notion.  I think a fair question would be "Anyone else triggered by passive aggressiveness in people other than their pwBPD?"

Let's think about this a bit.  Why wouldn't we be triggered?  One thing my T has checked me on many times, is that it's not reasonable to expect that we shouldn't have these feelings.  What we can work on, is how to manage them once we notice them.

I think we have to forgive ourselves for our internal feelings sometimes.  Acknowledge them.  Process them, and then have strategies to deal with them.  But I wouldn't want anyone to feel bad about themselves for having reactions to passive aggressive people because of past abuse.  I'm not sure that would be fair to ourselves.

I dont' know if this makes sense.  Just a thought I'm sharing.

Methuen, it makes a lot of sense and I think it is fair and true.

I guess I am unnerved at my own emotions right now... A lot is going on under the surface that I am having a hard time figuring out. I overthink things a lot, it's in my nature, and sometimes I wish I could shut myself down... It think that's why I phrased it this way...

But I agree that it would be much healthier for me to revert back to self-compassion, as opposed to this gas lighting of myself... So thank you very much for pointing it out.

[Couscous]

The thing is that it’s actually your H’s responsibility to draw and enforce the boundaries with his mother, and not yours. He also needs to understand why he shouldn’t be accepting food from her and not doing so just to placate you.

[Riv3rW0lf]

LnL,

I don't want to sound condescending but... I'm just not sure MIL is that smart? I mean, what you wrote about this book gave me shivers, I truly would not want to meet a smart covert aggressor with strong manipulative skills... If your SD is like that, which I seem to recall from your stories that she is...I mean, that's a lot to deal with !  

MIL really is low functioning, plus she takes a lot of pills to control her epilepsy, which came suddenly when she hit 40yo, and my H says he doesn't really remember her before that...and often comments how slow she seems, a bit simple minded?

She is just mean, and critical... But I'm not sure she is aware of the  manipulations that I see in her behavior... There clearly is some manipulation going on, but I wonder if it's just her reacting to stimulus without thinking about it more? Or if it's what's left of her prior to her illness? Considering she hit my H when he was 5yo... We all get tired, I get that, but how she speaks to my daughter sometimes, and how she talks about H VS his brother, I do think she had a golden child and a scapegoat and was maybe harder to get along with than she is now that she is drugged? Is that even possible?

My H considers her safe because of this "simple" face... While I see someone a bit mean that lacks the self-awareness I would require to trust her...

All this to say, I did try to approach her about the sugar from many fronts. Often calmly. But she still gives apples to my D in front of my, but the second I turn my back, she slips her candies and store-bought industrial cakes. So yeah... I'm not sure telling her I decreased her time alone with D for this reason will help, since she simply doesn't seem capable of changing her behavior for some reasons...

[Riv3rW0lf]

The thing is that it’s actually your H’s responsibility to draw and enforce the boundaries with his mother, and not yours. He also needs to understand why he shouldn’t be accepting food from her and not doing so just to placate you.

And he does when he is there with me... Which is why I don't want to see her by myself anymore. She attacks and oversteps our boundaries when he is not there.

As for the dropping off items, he is also the one who told them not to do that and to text before. Took him a lot of courage but she doesn't listen.

There are multiple faces to all of this... H is partly enmeshed, but he does try to enforce boundaries, even though he gets pissed and defensive... All of those contradictions are also part of what makes it hard for me to navigate all this. I never know which H I am talking to when it comes to his parents? If that makes sense?

[Riv3rW0lf]

I just understand that so well. It seems so unfair. The logical part of me knows that the whole of it has nothing to do with fairness, but stability. Safety. Trust.

I think if I’m not triggered by my grief and the unfairness I can handle Hs family so much better.

To some extent I worry your MIL has something deeper going on than being neurotic.  I know how intelligent you are by your posts and reflections. I hope that you will further your resolve to implement boundaries with a less threatening person than your mom.

What I mean by that is… our moms are not in our life right now bc something did seem rather threatening? Just an educated guess…  and there is opportunity to work on the PTSD responses we have with others…  so that maybe one day contact can resume with mom(s)

Bc we’ve effectively learned to disarm the trigger.

I sure hope so. Hug.

Imatter33, thank you for this. This is a great reminder and a great way to look at it... Maybe I should consider MIL as a practice run. When I can manage her well, maybe I can reenter a controlled contact with BPD mother...

Talking about BPD mother...I couldn't keep myself from writing her today... Wrote her "you know mom, I love you. I just don't feel very safe right now, but I am working on it."

She wrote back : "Me too. I am currently doing a seminar with (name), to learn to communicate better. I love you. Thank you. Xxx"

The guy is a psychologist with a phD. Hopefully he can help her.

I do think now there truly is a healthy mother within her that loves me, she is just being torn by her trauma and illness... Maybe if we both keep working at it, just maybe we will be able to be in contact... Maybe it will always be limited contact, because we all know how BPD is affected by proximity, but contact nonetheless.

[Methuen]

I do think now there truly is a healthy mother within her that loves me, she is just being torn by her trauma and illness... Maybe if we both keep working at it, just maybe we will be able to be in contact... Maybe it will always be limited contact, because we all know how BPD is affected by proximity, but contact nonetheless.

What a lovely thought.  But I know you will approach it slowly and with extreme caution.  This is still the same person that was responsible for many bad things happening to you.  I hope this psychologist can help her.  Is it a single seminar, or an entire program?  Is it "in person" or a program she is observing on-line?If she tells you something positive about "treatment", can you believe her?  I don't mean to be a suspicious sally, but I have pretty major trust issues. pwBPD always have a motivation, and it usually serves them...

Limited contact might be realistic.  I just don't want to see you get hurt again, so caution is advisable while giving her the communication channel with you, and a chance to demonstrate with real actions that she has new awareness and can change some things. Baby steps.  Nice to have hope.  

[Riv3rW0lf]

Methuen,

Yes. I am aware how much stronger I am now compared to a year ago, when I discovered my mother had BPD. This time, I wouldn't be going in as a young, scared child with hope, but like a mature adult, as my own parent, with radical acceptance that she is borderline and a will to act accordingly.

I am still not entirely ready, but I was happy to see that she is trying to be better, to work on her. Learning to communicate better for her is absolutely a must, so it goes to show she knows what she needs and tries to develop it.

As long as she is willing to work on her, then it can make the relationship possible. But I am aware I first need to practice boundary setting for myself, and setting limits with dysfunctional people too.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Ok !

So...

https://psychcentral.com/blog/how-to-deal-with-covert-narcissist-or-victim-parents-or-in-laws

My best bet is now that MIL is a heavily drugged covert narcissist and that my H likely has fleas from how she raised him.

I am more neurotic than H, so an easier target for her, explaining why I am much more sensitive to her behavior than he is. He might have been attracted to me for this reason too, because he does tend to use covert aggression more than I. I am more ambivalent, or passive aggressive, which is exact what I've been working on through therapy... Be more assertive and secure in who I am and what I feel.

H is good natured though. Not too sure she is. Feels more manipulative than good-natured.

This would explain A LOT of her behaviors.

[khibomsis]

Hey RW, so glad that others have validated your suspicions about your MIL! One thing I thank all the BPD's in my life, they have honed my spidey sense for dysfunction. I smell it a mile away these days. One of the consequences of healing is sniffing how crazy others are.

I went NC twice with my uNBPDmom in my life. Both times were a couple of years, and after that I settled on a kind of controlled LC. It worked for the next two decades. 

I ended up both loving and respecting my parents. They did the best they could with what they had, and in many ways more loving or committed parents would have been hard to find. That doesn't excuse the abuse, I was raised by two people with PTSD and the scars will remain with me for life. In fact, it is only recently that I have been able to discern something beyond the scars. These days I recognize the anxiety and process it rather than knowing no other state of being. Still, with all their flaws I cannot remember a deliberately evil moment. My mom's narcissism was so complete she did not conceive of us as separate from her. She would not have hurt herself. It is in a way so devastating (even then it didn't get to be about me and so charming all at once, No wonder I spent years feeling so conflicted. Still their actions were due to their shortcomings and not to deliberate malice on their side. Had diagnoses and therapy been available and possible for them I am sure my father would have had no hesitation in accessing it. To refuse medical care for the sick was not his way.

It was this, I think, that enabled the LC. And it took me years to be ready for it. Had there been malicious intent I am pretty sure I would have stayed NC.

 

[Methuen]

My mom's narcissism was so complete she did not conceive of us as separate from her.

I am wondering if you mean that a parent who is unable to let her child (any age including adult) individuate and recognize them as a healthy "separate" person, is also a narcissistic parent?

I'm looking for clarification.  Somehow I've always associated this more with BPD rather than NPD, although I recognize there could be overlap.

I've never thought of my mom as a narcissist, but I'm questioning that now.  I'm kinda wondering if this is another missing piece of the puzzle.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Khimbosis,

Thank you for pitching in, I think I was again in a swirl out of control .. MIL is not a psychopath, and she does have a gentle side too.

I really have to be careful when I get triggered, I tend to direct all the rage and anger Little Riverwolf felt on whomever wronged me, but I cannot and shouldn't do that. It's unhealthy.

But still, I cannot trust her because of her dysfunction. Similarly to my own mother, she is clingy and looks like she wants to enmesh my children. I cannot accept her critics anymore, and her out of place comments. So I will need to set limits and find some strong boundaries for myself to preserve my sanity.

I am thinking about what those could look like...

I feel calmer now that I got it all out though.

You are all amazing, I really love this forum. I feel like I matured an awful lot with your support. 

[khibomsis]

Methuen, yes, that is exactly what I mean. For my mother, she was the world. Or at least her children  It is what held back my own individuation for so long. To this day I can feel a cold fear blowing when I manifest myself. Takes a lot of courage to do so, even though mom ain't around to punish me.
Riv3rwolf, I love the way you work yourself back from your triggers every time. I would suggest working through boundaries with your therapist. I used to rehearse them with my therapist every time I would go visit my parents. Thorough preparation before and then an evaluation when I got back. It really helped.
 

[Couscous]

Here is is an excerpt from The Emotional Enmeshment Syndrome on making peace with your in-laws that might be of some use:

If your mother in law is violating your rights then you have a reason to discuss it with her. However, if your mother-in-law is violating your husband’s rights, then it’s up to your husband to set the record straight. It’s not your problem – it is his. You’ll have to discipline yourself to stay out of matters that don’t directly concern you.

For example, you may be very upset with the way your mother-in-law smothers your husband. You may be thinking, “look at how she treats him she expects him to meet all her needs! Why can’t she leave him alone?” What do you need to ask yourself is, “is my mother-in-law’s behavior a problem to my husband?” It could be that her behavior is more troubling to you than him; he may have resigned himself to her treatment long ago. It’s up to him to resolve the matter. All you can do is make your sentiments known to your husband and let him take it from there what you can do is focus on issues that pop up in your relationship. It is very likely that there are some similar dynamics in operation.

On the other hand, what appears to be an in-law problem can in reality be an undiagnosed marital problem. For example, if you approach your wife with a suggestion that you go skiing over spring vacation and she says, “no, I feel obligated to spend time with my parents,“ then you have a valid complaint with your wife, not your in-laws. She is allowing her parents to be more influential to her than you are. In a healthy family system, the husband and wife give each other as a priority and allow both sets of parents to recede into the background. Since your wife is not doing this, the two of you have a legitimate issue.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Just an update... H and I talked about the situation with MIL.

He agreed to all of the limits I outlined i.e. they won't be seeing the children alone; and I won't be going to see them by myself anymore.

So basically, he will need to be there for every visits with the in-laws, or he will be the one that will need to go there with the children.

I basically let him know that it seems that just like he was the scapegoat growing up, I was becoming, by proxy, a family scapegoat, and I had no interest to be one.

He said it was heavy, that he was tired of me speaking against his mother. I said I was not speaking against her, but rather was presenting him what she says and does and why I needed to set limits... He was silent and said : "It's just... I have no idea why she says all this and why she is being like that." So I pointed out to him that when he entered MY family, he saw right away how "intense" my mother was. Also that, after 15 years away, maybe he could see the dysfunction more, like I discovered my own mother was BPD after many years appart. He nodded.

In the end, he never wanted to come with me to visit his parents; he becomes nervous when they are scheduled to visit. I think I unwillingly made him hope they were safe when I started caretaking them, all the while freeing him from the pressure to do so himself.

So in the end, he said he didn't care what they thought about him and I and our life, that he had stopped caring many years ago and that he was fine with all the limits I wanted to instigate. That he would support me.

So I guess... Part of him knew all this. He was a scapegoat, his brother the golden child... So he is, by default, much less enmeshed than his brother... He wants to be the "good boy" but he keeps being rejected, even now... He is always the "second choice", but he will take it, since that's the only recognion he can get... Maybe that's why he didn't need much convincing on my part. He kinda knew already...

[Notwendy]

In the end, he never wanted to come with me to visit his parents; he becomes nervous when they are scheduled to visit. I think I unwillingly made him hope they were safe when I started caretaking them, all the while freeing him from the pressure to do so himself.

So in the end, he said he didn't care what they thought about him and I and our life, that he had stopped caring many years ago and that he was fine with all the limits I wanted to instigate. That he would support me.

Wow that went well. Such insight on your H's part.

And the part where he didn't want to be critical of his mother- I think we all can relate to feeling uncomfortable saying less than complimentary things about our mothers. It's a bit of a taboo, it feels wrong, but there's a difference between "bad mouthing" them and bringing up issues in order to find a solution.

You did well- your H did well!

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy,

I know your situation was different, on account on your mother being much more aggressive than H's mother. But how was it for you, being a scapegoat? What kind of scars did it left you?

You talked a lot about the codependency, and I can see that a bit in H when his father leaves. But there seems to be a void inside of him too. I don't think I internalized "not being enough", as much as he did... Did you?

You don't have to answer, as I know this is deeply personal. I guess I am trying to get more insight into H's vulnerabilities, and if I am seeing things right.

[Notwendy]

I don't mind- the "never enough" was the predominant message. Nothing I did was ever enough. BPD mother would tell me I was unlovable and that I was the cause of her issues with my father. I had very low self esteem. In college and after that, I over achieved, thinking maybe I could redeem myself with my parents. It was never enough.

Interesting, my H got the never enough message too, even if his parents were so different. His father was critical. He didn't feel he could ever please him. In reality, his father thought the world of him but didn't know how to show it.

I can see how your H feels though.

[Riv3rW0lf]

So... This week, H brought up the subject of his childhood by himself  

We were able to finally breach the subject of how he felt they didn't care what he was doing. They weren't enforcing anything. How his father would tell him he would help him with something and then stop two days after, how there was no consistency. I brought up the idea of the scapegoat VS the golden child, and he admitted that he felt his parents failed him...didn't see him. He said : "they don't know me at all."

As you might all remember, I stopped going to MIL and FIL by myself. So H now has to be the one to visit which he does every Saturday morning. This basically forced him to be in contact with his parents more often, because he still feels compelled to include them, with limits, as grandparents in our family. And I think he is starting to notice patterns, emotions rising up when he goes there, and it kickstarted his journey.

And this morning was amazing ! For me anyway ... !

He came back and told me : "I had to scold my mother." And I was like : "Yeah? ... Wanna talk about it?"  

He said : "She bought christmas calendars for the children. And it really pissed me off. I told her we already had Christmas calendars for them, that this was OUR role as parents and to stop trying to take more place than she should as a grandmother."

I didn't say anything but damn did I want to point out to him :" remember all those times where I was trying to tell you exactly that and you didn't care? And said I was making up problems?" Thankfully I didn't... I just said :" she is emotionally clingy".

To which he answered :"Yes ! This is the exact word, she is clingy. There is a clingyness to her that unnerves me ! If she doesn't stop those behaviors, I will have a sit down with dad because it is starting to create issues. She asked to see DD too, because she hasn't seen her for a month now (he goes there while DD had dancing classes with me). And I told her we were busy. She cannot cling to our children like that. It is unhealthy. Dad said nothing to back mom so I think he gets it, but I'm not sure."

I heard the child in him with this last sentence... A certain fear that he might have to fight his dad... I imagine it happened a lot growing up..  

H doesn't want his parents involved in his life... He doesn't mind them around, but he doesn't want them close. Why would he? They blamed him all his life, said he was undisciplined, egoist, a bad child... When he is the warmest person I've ever known. He pulls me up, he is an amazing father, he is supportive, a great listener, curious...

Everytime I said something good about him to MIL, she'd say something like :" His brother is like that too, but very calm and patient too." It made me incredibly angry. H doesn't care, H is used to it. But now H doesn't take any   from them anymore.

Stepping out and stopping my visits there was the best decision I have taken for a long time. H and I are truly on the same team now that he sees it too.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I hope you all get that the problem wasn't the calendars themselves, but the pattern of behaviors behind the calendars...  

I suspect many things were said and happened on those other times he went there that he didn't feel important to share. And this morning, he had his first "bursts".

Like I know she mentioned me last time... that she hoped I can "alternate Christmas diner with my family" so she can arrange dinner with her other son. Knowing her, there was an attitude with that request that he picked up on, because when he told me about it, he was a bit off. I laughed and said : "of course not, you know me, I only think about myself and my FOO." And he got the joke right away... Knowing her, that probably how she brought it up.

MIL has shown resentment in the past, a tendancy to not accept when I go see my father with my children...  Once, she intervened in a discussion with my H, to say : "Well your father just has to swallow his pill", I looked at her and said :"Mind your own business and don't talk about my father like that. You don't even know him." Thinking back on it this was an incredible red flag, still glad I told her to back off that time.  

So best guess, she also tries to triangulate H against me, likely thinking the "low sugar" for snacks and stuff comes from me, that I am the mean daughter in law, and it is bursting in her face, because H and I truly are on board with how we parent and he is incredibly protective of our family...    ... He is also the one who bought the Christmas calendars. He was so proud of himself might have contributed to his irritation.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Wrong click.

[Notwendy]

That's great news. I think when we step out of the way and let them deal with their families, they can come to their own conclusions.

Besides, we have enough "crazy" from our own families to deal with. We can do our "crazy" and they can do theirs 

[Couscous]

Now the challenge is going to be for your H to stay out of the persecutor role  although it's entirely understandable that initially his impulse is going to be to do just that. Since his mother is probably not going to change her needy behavior,  sitting down with his father may not accomplish much, and would technically be triangulation on your H's part. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but I really recommend the book, The Emotional Incest Syndrome for great suggestions on how to have a 10 second confrontation with parents that doesn't turn into drama triangle dynamics. It's worth getting for the chapter about parents alone, and the book is applicable to anyone who grew up in enmeshed family -- not just the "chosen child".

The issue of the gift giving is always a tricky one -- although I totally agree that laying down the law about candy is absolutely within a parent's rights. When my SIL tried to ask my mother to stop sending gifts she was extremely offended and felt that it was her right as a grandmother, to send gifts, and that she would continue to do so no matter what my SIL wanted. In my case, I actually like the gifts my mother picks out for my kids, so for me this issue has never been a big deal and I have been able to ignore the strings that were probably attached. My mother always sends advent calendars and I don't particularly see this as an attempt by her to usurp my place as parent. I would be very surprised if our mothers don't believe with all their hearts that they only gives gifts out of the kindness of their hearts and I'm certain they have no awareness of their ulterior motives, which is why scolding them doesn't. If she buys the calendars again next year and you H is still no OK with it, perhaps he could say something like, "Oh, how kind of you, but we already have advent calendars for this year." And perhaps he could request that she just buy them books (you could even make a wish list on Amazon so she gets the kids of books you like) or a subscription to a children's magazines, like Pomme d'api, for instance.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Thanks for the recommendation Couscous.

I don't think H would read it, it's not in his character. Maybe I could read it for him, but then my own boundary right now is to let him deal with his side of crazy, like Notwendy puts it  

H used the word scolded initially to draw me in the story  , but he said it went like like :"why did you do that? We don't need it... We already bought one for DD and DS is too young yet for this. So you can keep it." He said she fought back by saying "well take it for yourself then, what an I supposed to do with that?" And he said he answered : "I don't know but it is your problem to deal with. Next time, before buying something, check in with us." He might have had an irritated voice, but I highly doubt he actually "scolded her". He merely stood up and to him, it probably gave him an adrenaline rush, and he probably felt mean, but knowing him, he likely wasn't, and was just an impression on his part... We've all been there. I'm sure you know exactly what I am talking about : the first boundary we set and the anxiety that rises with it.

I saw H fear asking his parents, who were over for a visit, when they would leave... They would come stay at our house, and not told us for how long. They would stay weeks at a time, and I'd push H to ask them when they were leaving because this was unacceptable ! Took him a lot to confront them everytime.

Talking with his father is actually a way to stay OUT of the drama triangle. That's how it is in his family... They are only men with her being the only female, and they were brought up to "take care of mom". So it isn't triangulation as much as : "when you see her buy these things, can you remind her not to? To check in with us first?" He sees them as one entity, and in a certain sense, he is right to see them this way.

FIL doesn't say anything when MIL crosses boundaries, but we can all see he is uncomfortable with it. Once, she made him come unannounced at my house to bring us food. My son was sick and projectile vomiting everywhere. I wrote her back it wasn't a good time but FIL arrived a few minutes later. I told him : "thank you but this is really not a good time right now." And he said :"I am so sorry, we will see you soon". And he left right away. He got it. MIL just stays planted there and keeps on talking and she would have asked to see the children, what is going on? Can we go buy something for you? When all you want if for her to leave. But she never gets the message.

It's control disguised as care, and gift giving. And she is a victim everytime someone sets a boundary. There is NO WAY around that. We well always be the persecutors in her world, because that's what everyone seems to be for her, whenever they don't do what she wants.

She can be the sweetest person, as long as you let her do whatever she wants. The second you stand up, she starts with mean comments, boundary invasion and triangulation.

I trust him to find his own way on his journey. I think my role is to support him, and stay out of his way. I certainly don't want to guiltrip him for showing irritation or anger. It's a process. One he will figure out in time.

As for the gifts... Like I said, it wasn't the gifts themselves : but the pattern behind the gift. I truly think she worked on triangulating him against me when he went there...about Christmas, about food, about the children.. and he snapped over the calendars. Because from the stories he told me, he often had to answer her : "I will check with Riverwolf and we will get back to you." .. "No mom, riverwolf has been cooking for a long time, I am pretty sure she knows how to prepare that meal.", "No Mom, thanks, but we don't need decorstions, Riverwolf will buy what she likes, it's her area and her house." But she just doesn't stop invading and trying to grab control... The calendars were an excuse for boundary setting :"check in with us before buying stuff for the children."

Also, we already tried requesting specific gifts like books, I even once told her :" if it's important to you that they have swimming class, I invite you to gift them one and take them with you" after she told me :"you will put them in a swimming class". It was the last I heard of it...

The problem is, like I think Methuen said, that she is a steam roller.

I am actually quite proud of the way H is handling it so far. It shows that he's been away for so long. He is fair in his boundaries, and he still visit them. He doesn't ruminate like I would, and he consistently showed up for me and to protect our family's limits since I stopped going there by myself.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I guess the big issue is : I am aware my children are her grandchildren, that she loves them, and that she wants to be a part of their life.

I honestly understand that, and I tried to include her. For more than 8 months, I went there every week, once or twice a week to visit. I invited them over for coffee, I included them. But she became controlling and manipulative. The more I invited her out of kindness, the more she started to act as a second mother to them... But not a safe one.

She would do things behind my back, she would scoff at my stories, gives me backhanded compliment. Once she asked me how things were going with H. I was starting to see the big picture at that point and I realized this question was out of boundaries. I certainly would never display any information on my relationship with H to his mother. I realized right away she would use this information against me later on. And it struck me... How H always says : Information is power. That's how he was raised. She would get in, get info, and use it against him later or tell everyone and shame him. That's what she does.

So I cut back.

I understand, for her, its out of love for our children. But it is deeply unhealthy to give her unlimited attendance to them and to feed her clingyness. I swear she uses sugar to lure them in, then she asked them questions about us, she intrudes, she judges. She is simply not a safe person, especially not for me, the daughter in law. So I am now staying at a safe distance.

The problem with the Karpman Triangle is that almost all human interactions are based on it.  A triangle can be absolutely normal, the problem is not the triangle, it's the drama, the rumination, the emotional engagement. Any boundary setting will feel like persecution to the person on the receiving end. And as much as I like looking at myself for growth, at some point, we have to stop looking for perfection in ourselves, and to the contrary, accept that we are humans.

It's awkward to become an adult, and not be treated as such by our parents. FIL understands that dynamic has changed. That his sons are grown. Not MIL. She still thinks she holds power over them when she doesn't. And she needs to learn that.

[zachira]

Great Thread!
I question the thought that MIL does things out of love for her grandchildren. Perhaps another explanation is that MIL is biologically attached to her grandchildren. When my NPD sister had children, I was really surprised at how special they were to me and that I felt an attachment to them like no other children. This is in spite of the fact that I have had very little contact with them. I do think the biological connection to biological close family is very strong, and does not necessarily mean there is a loving connection. With dysfunctional people, it seems the biological connection can be more about possesion and control than genuine love for family members.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Great Thread!
I question the thought that MIL does things out of love for her grandchildren. Perhaps another explanation is that MIL is biologically attached to her grandchildren. When my NPD sister had children, I was really surprised at how special they were to me and that I felt an attachment to them like no other children. This is in spite of the fact that I have had very little contact with them. I do think the biological connection to biological close family is very strong, and does not necessarily mean there is a loving connection. With dysfunctional people, it seems the biological connection can be more about possesion and control than genuine love for family members.

Zacchira,

This is a great point.

I often wonder about Love, with a bit L... And I do think healthy Love is not clingy.

So there might be a biological component at play here, you are right.