Not incompetent and deliberate

[Notwendy]

GC's visit didn't bring us any closer to reasoning with BPD mother. It's clearer she needs more assistance and home health is getting expensive as she needs more of it. This raises the question of what her resources are and what she can afford and still we have no sense of that as she won't share that information with us.

This is so different from the arrangements my friends have with their elderly parents and from how my in laws behaved. My in laws were transparent with their children at a certain point where it was apparent they would need some assistance with daily tasks. They were difficult at times, difficult in the usual sense as people age and don't want to give up autonomy. But mostly they have been agreeable.

Moments of being difficult are normal. This is beyond that, it's quite extraordinary. Some family members have noticed and asked us if she's becoming incompetent because it's so strange to be this financially reckless. The home health coordinator insists otherwise, says she's quite mentally competent- this has to be by her own design.

While she's keeping her finances to herself, she's open about the recklessness, talking about how expensive her care is, leaving parts of bank statements out- GC was concerned that she'd leave this out for anyone to see- and discussed this with her. This is just one example of some of the things she did that raised our concern. I don't think this was her being careless- I think she put it there for GC to see it and she's talking about how much money she's spending for us to hear it.

Our first concern is that she has enough for her own needs and this makes us worried. But I have another idea. She's smarter than to compromise herself and she doesn't reveal financial information usually. So what is going on?

This has been hard to figure out as she knows we aren't interested in her money- so why does she do this? If she knows we want something- then she has used that for control. What we want is the information- so we know she's got what she needs- we want the information because we are concerned for her- so- that's it- she knows we want the information. And letting out some reckless spending makes us more concerned. But she's smarter than to compromise herself. I think this is deliberate on her part.

It's cruel and inconsiderate on her part too. Couscous mentioned she may be NPD- she has more BPD behaviors but there is NPD and lack of empathy. I have seen at times where she seems to enjoy being cruel. What she's been doing is beyond being careless, or forgetful. She's not careless or forgetful. She's doing this on purpose.

On my part? I believe she's smarter than to compromise herself, so the worry isn't necessary. I am actually more disgusted at her behavior as it's become obvious it's by her design.

[I Am Redeemed]

Do you think she is trying to get one or both of you to do something like move closer to her and take over the caregiving duties yourselves instead of paying for home health?

Or do you think she is just trying to get you to be concerned and ask her about her financial situation so she can withhold the information and feel "in control"?

I can definitely understand you feeling disgusted at this behavior. It sounds like she is playing a game with you and your sibling just for her own needs, whatever that need may be (validation, needing to feel important, in control, or whatever it is).

[Notwendy]

Or do you think she is just trying to get you to be concerned and ask her about her financial situation so she can withhold the information and feel "in control"?

This one.

I was also thinking she uses material things to control and get back at people. Like she would give something that belonged to my father to an acquaintance and not me because she was angry at me and she knew I wanted it. If she knows we want something - she makes sure we don't get it. She's also been destructive of our personal property if she's angry or confiscated something and threatened to ruin it. Things like calling me up and saying "if you ever want to see that childhood rocker in your room here you had better..." Or "I am going to give your father's books to the community yard sale". or offer something to me and when I come to get it she changes her mind.

She knows we want this information and I am certain that since she hasn't given it to us she doesn't intend to. I also think it's possible that she doesn't want us to have any of her possessions or property so she'd rather ruin it, waste it, give it away instead. Her not telling us about taking out a home equity loan was an example of that. She didn't have the courtesy to let us know. It's her house to do what she wants with it, but I'd hope she'd at least told us to keep us informed.

We have concern and empathy for her but I am starting to wonder if she's aware of this and is using it for control.

[madeline7]

When my elderly uBPDm became widowed and leaned on me and my siblings, I went to an eldercare attorney to find out what my legal responsibility was to care for her, and when she started to dysregulate on a regular basis without my Dad around as a buffer, I reached out to her Dr, knowing that he might not be able to legally speak to me, but I reached out anyway to share my concerns. This helped me in terms of what was seen as a requirement by the outside professional world, however, it did little to alleviate me feeling obligated and guilty. At least I knew I did everything that was required of me, and there was documentation that I was not "negligent", and doing the best I could with a difficult and irrational Mother. In fact on one ER visit, the ER Dr initially thought my Mom was either confused due to a UTI or had the beginnings of dementia. When me and my sister spoke outside her room as she was in full agitation mode, we explained that she was a borderline. When the Dr went back into the room, she gave my Mom an ultimatum to cooperate with the intake. When my Mom complied she realized we must be right about her mental illness, as her "confusion and agitation" miraculously lifted. After the assessment the Dr took us outside and said "I feel sorry for you girls". She was not speaking to girls, me and my sisters were in our late 50's and 60's at the time. Regardless, it is difficult to see the struggles she is having with aging, but I am aging as well (we are now in our 60's and 70's), so the focus has shifted finally back to self care for us "girls". What a ride this has been. But now Mom is in the back seat and I am in the drivers seat.

[zachira]

It seems your mother gets narcissistic supply from upsetting you, and she knows not disclosing her finances to you, looking like she is being financially reckless is very upsetting to you. Perhaps you would have more peace of mind if you knew that there is no way you would have to take care of your mother if she were to go broke.

[Notwendy]

I don't have any financial obligation to take care of her. Fortunately I have a bit of an idea of her income and know it's enough to meet her needs in some assisted livings or skilled care if she were to need that, but possibly not one she would choose.

She had told GC they'd discuss all this during GC's visit. I thought perhaps it would go better with GC alone but it was the same - nothing got done. I think I had a glimmer of hope things might be different. She has had many chances to do this with us. I am just processing the reality of this- she has no intention to do it. One idea is that, rather than go broke, she may be Ok and if we knew that, we might not be concerned for her= less narcissistic supply?

At this point I am more angry than concerned- angry that she'd be so dismissive of her children's concern for her, and realizing it may just be narcissistic supply to her.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
Hope that things will change is usually the last thing to happen before we can let go of the overwhelming emotions that we feel ever time we are being used for narcissistic supply by the disordered people in our lives. When the disordered person is our mother, we can never completely let go of wishing we had a mother who was capable of loving her children. You might try telling your mother things that really don't concern you that they do concern you, and let her use those for her narcissistic supply. It really has been hard for me to be completely dishonest with my disordered family members and their enablers yet it has helped me gain considerable freedom and peace even though it feels icky for me to be inauthentic with disordered family members and their enablers yet very necessary to protect my wellbeing. What do you think?

[Notwendy]

Yes, mostly I don't have hope for a mother-daughter relationship, but I still can be shocked at her behavior. I understand the fake it part - to have space for your own privacy. There's not much I can do about her behavior- she is who she is.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
It sounds like processing how hurtful your mother's behaviors are and moving on quickly are some of your ongoing challenges. With my dysfunctional family members, I still am shocked and hurt at how cruel they can be. It seems the more I set better boundaries with them, the worse their behavior gets. We can never outdo people who live to hurt others because they feel so terrible inside. Nothing angers them more than being found out. I think your mother at some level gets it that you have her number and she must be furious.

[Notwendy]

Yes, it's a process- moving on takes its own course- and at each stage when we are reminded it's not a normal situation.

[Riv3rW0lf]

We have concern and empathy for her but I am starting to wonder if she's aware of this and is using it for control.

Notwendy, I think it is a normal reaction, and even healthy for you to be angry at her for how she has been treating you. A "lack of empathy" is the textbook sign of NPD, as opposed to BPD, and you shared often that she didn't seem to show empathy... Narcissists can use cognitive empathy to "blend in" and get into your head though.

I have seen my brother smirks when I was sharing some very hurtful memories about my childhood. It was a quick view into his psyche. It gave me the creep and I started wondering if he hadn't develop some kind of NPD. And I do think he did. But his persona is one of a spiritual leader, he built his own kind of cult, all based on his skills to read people, on his cognitive empathy.

https://psychcentral.com/blog/liberation/2018/07/how-the-narcissist-hurts-you-using-cognitive-empathy#Why-the-Narcissists-Lack-of-Empathy-Concept-is-a-Myth

It is a real possibility that she is using YOUR empathy to fill her narcissistic supply. To me, my brother is a communal narcissist, he has a grandiose persona, while your mother is likely a covert narcissist. It can look a lot like borderline, but isn't borderline. My BPD mother has a lot of empathy, and it is part of what makes it so hard to be no contact with her. I know, that deep within her, she IS good, she IS loving, she WANTS things to go well, she WANTS to be a good mother and makes us feel loved. But she is impulsive, she rages, and then she beats herself up for it, but she just cannot keep herself from doing it, so she rages more. This is completely different than what your mother seems to be deliberately doing to you. It sometimes feels like she wants to torture you emotionally and psychologically, more than a loss emotional of control.

I think it would be very hard to categorize a fear of abandonment VS the rage generated from feeling rejected that a narcissist would experience. My mother, for example, is in real pain when she feels abandoned, she is not enraged, it's deep hurt and pain, and she feels it's because there is something wrong with her, and she protects herself by projecting what she feels is wrong with her onto us, blaming us, and screaming at us, making us feel worthless, which comes out as rage, but then I can see her shake and she cries in her sleep. There is just a deep hurt that I don't think narcissists would let others see? pwBPD do let you see it once in a while... They can show vulnerability. They have a "lost child" mode where they just need you to help them and save them... and it is a real mode, they are genuinely "in awe" of you, as a protector. Have you seen this mode with your mother? Or is she always seemingly playing games?  

I do think a covert narcissist would use your empathy against you to keep you around for narcissistic supply.

[Turkish]

She's smarter than to compromise herself and she doesn't reveal financial information usually

This might work until it doesn't. Yet we've all heard about people that remain cognitively competent into their 90s...

[Notwendy]

Turkish- yes, I think she will want to maintain her control for as long as she is able to.

 Riv3rW0lf- that's an interesting article and a lot of it seems to fit. She is able to "read" people- so maybe it's more accurate to say she has no emotional or compassionate empathy.  There's no warmth to her, she's not affectionate.

She does use people- to get them to do things for her and she acts superior to others. It's hard to see her as purely NPD though as she has so many borderline behaviors too. I do think NPD/BPD can overlap. I had seen her as getting people to do things for her as meeting the need but she wants people to do things for her that she is able to do and that need seems large- narcissistic supply makes sense.

I liked the line "does it feel like you are being tortured?"  Sometimes and sometimes it's an icky feeling. Being around her feels uncomfortable as it feels as if the interaction is manipulative- like she has something she wants but you don't know exactly what it is.

So I looked at description of a covert narcissist parent and it fits- all of them.

Seeing things in this way makes sense. While I do want to act respectfully to her, because she is my mother, because of my own value system, I can see that it isn't reciprocal.

Constant disappointment: If the parent expresses consistent disappointment, no matter the child’s achievements, they could be a covert narcissist.

Physical absence: A covert narcissist may not be interested in being physically present with the child. Birthdays, holidays, and graduations may not seem important.
Emotional absence: If they are physically present, they may not be emotionally. They could often ignore the child and limited communication.

Anger when children need attention: With the enduring self-centeredness, a covert narcissist will become annoyed or irritated when the child needs time and attention.

Exploiting the children for personal gain: A covert narcissist will find ways to benefit from the child, either financially, at work, or with relationships. The child becomes a bargaining tool.

 

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy,

I think it is good that you are lifting the veil on your mother true self. I agree with you that there are overlaps between BPD and NPD, especially with our own FOG and biases, it is hard to see and be sure. We get confused looking at it all... For me, the no contact helped a lot in seeing things with more neutrality, in seeing the good sides of my mother, while also recognizing her impulsivity, rage and shame. 

Like I read you wrote to other members many times : labels are useful to develop and find the proper tools to help us deal with our loved one with BPD or NPD.

I don't think a covert narcissist should be validated the same way a borderline needs. It exposes you, and makes you seem weak and manipulable. I think you need to remain much more guarded emotionally with covert narcissists.  

[Notwendy]

I agree- I have even seen behaviors that lean to the psychopath area- she seems to enjoy manipulating and hurting people. Not in a criminal way- not at that level, but at the interpersonal level.

I think what has got me thinking more about this is that GC visited her, and she alluded to discussing her plans/affairs at that time but it was the same old dynamics and it's become clear she doesn't intend to do that. In a way, it's cruel to keep this information from grown children and I think this is intentional. I still have empathy for her situation but am less emotionally invested in what she does. She's making her own choices.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I still have empathy for her situation but am less emotionally invested in what she does. She's making her own choices.

This sounds incredibly healthy to me.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
It seems you are finally understanding the narcissistic part of your mother. I have found that the covert narcissist description fits with many disordered people who I am so confused by and who don't meet the description of an overt narcissist. With the covert narcissist, it seems to be all about deliberately manipulating people so they can be in control and planning so carefully their actions, that most people never get it. Does knowing that your mother is a covert narcissist change anything about the ways you interact with your mother or with people involved in her care?

[Notwendy]

I feel sorry for her health care workers. She's abusive to them. I wouldn't blame them if they didn't put up with it. As for her, I still will respect that she is my mother and a human, but at the moment I don't want  much interaction with her.

[Methuen]

I feel sorry for her health care workers. She's abusive to them. I wouldn't blame them if they didn't put up with it. As for her, I still will respect that she is my mother and a human, but at the moment I don't want  much interaction with her.

 

I do think a covert narcissist would use your empathy against you to keep you around for narcissistic supply.

This got my attention.  "Covert narcissist".  I've never heard of this before.  For my years on this forum, I've always dismissed narcissist in my mom, as I've always associated narcissism with those who have feelings of grandiosity...

Since reading this thread, I've been researching "covert narcissist".   A lot of it fits.  Interesting.

[Riv3rW0lf]

This got my attention.  "Covert narcissist".  I've never heard of this before.  For my years on this forum, I've always dismissed narcissist in my mom, as I've always associated narcissism with those who have feelings of grandiosity...

Since reading this thread, I've been researching "covert narcissist".   A lot of it fits.  Interesting.

I am glad this new information is of help to you, Methuen.

At first, when I was completely entangled within my mother's emotional world, and reading on BPD, it appeared clear that she was borderline, but I also ended up researching a lot of other labels, just in case. Interestingly enough, it was reading a lot about your experiences that made it clear for me that my mother is almost a textbook borderline case. She has narcissistic traits but they are much less pronounced than what I often read on this forum.

Reading your stories showed a lot of differences in terms of nastiness, and entitlement. It's not that BPD mother isn't entitled, but when I call her out on it, she can accept it more than a covert narcissist would. She can show empathy. She rages and is easily upset, but she isn't actively trying to ruin me. There is an underlying competition, but a lot of love also... Your mothers, to Notwendy and you, do feel more cold and cruel than my own mother is.

It doesn't make my mother safe, but there truly is a tender side to the abuse of a borderline.

I only truly realized it by being no contact for a while though... Distance has a way to neutralize the emotional biases we have. It helped me see a bigger, clearer picture of her goods and bads.

In Notwendy and yours case, there is seemingly a lot of torture going on too... More manipulations than emotional reactions.

There is a psychopath protector in my mother's psyche, but it comes out to protect her when she feels vulnerable. In your mother's case, it feels like this psychopath protector is almost always active? Maybe I am wrong though.

[madeline7]

This has been an interesting revelation for me. My uBPDm may be a covert narcissist as well. At times she talks the talk but never walks the walk in terms of authentic consideration for others. It seems she can be genuine when that behavior will get her what she wants. But it's always about her. And getting what she needs and wants, and using others to get those needs and wants met. I think she wants to love me, but I truly feel she doesn't have the capacity for authentic love. She is so damaged and I am still working in my senior years to untangle myself from her web of disordered behavior. I am doing so much better, and each post and revelation, and support from this board helps!

[zachira]

I think of my disordered family members and their enablers in terms of having split personalities. What am I seeing today? Is it the narcissistic side that is showing or more of the BPD? Having multiple personalities is more common than previously thought, and certainly there are many disordered individuals who regularly split between being very different people at different times depending on the circumstances and who they are with, without necessarily meeting the criteria for having more than one personality. The discussion on covert narcissists is very helpful to me. I realize that the covert narcissist is often far more manipulative and evil in many ways than the overt narcissist and person with BPD. I have been trying to figure out why I have such a hard time figuring out certain people, and it is the covert narcissism that really fits a lot of scenarios where I have been hurt by people who covertly manipulate others so they can be in control. I am thinking it doesn't matter what labels we use to describe the disordered people in our lives, that it is more about knowing who we are, and seeing the behaviors of disordered people for what they really are. If our mother is a covert narcissist, than we know we have got to be on our toes, to protect ourselves from her manipulations and how she uses people to be in control of every situation. If our mother fits the label for BPD and does not seem to be a narcissist, than maybe we can be more sympathetic to her mental illness. I have known many people with BPD who could be extremely empathetic at times; it is just they have no empathy at other times. The narcissists I know/have known clearly are incapable of affective empathy, though cognitive empathy is often a big tool in their arsenal to manipulate others. With the overt narcissist, there is more bragging and more clear manifestations that they deliberately hurt people and don't care though there is plenty of covert narcissism behind the scenes. With the covert narcissism, so much of the narcissism is hidden except to those who have been most directly targeted by the covert narcissist. Some people can be both overt and covert narcissists depending on the situation; this is particularly true of my NPD sister and some of my other disordered family members. Thank you everybody for your contributions to this thread. It leaves me with so much to think about as I continue to learn how to better deal with people with whom it is not safe to share myself, and to be assertive with when putting up better boundaries earlier on.

[Methuen]

Empathy.  I'm guessing many people on this board have high empathy skills.  It would seem to me that it comes with the territory.

This talk about "cognitive empathy" sent me to do more research.  I now see that there is a difference between cognitive empathy and emotional empathy. 

I'm guessing all of us here are pretty good at both of them. It was a necessary survival skill.

Since our parent with BPD raised us to be their caretakers (emotional incest, parentification), does it make sense to suggest they trained us to be their emotional empaths? And this is how they manipulate us?

[zachira]

Methuen,
It is very possible that your mother trained you to be her emotional empath and caretaker from birth. Can you ever remember a moment in your life time when your mother showed genuine empathy for you and put your needs first? My two brothers were targeted to be mom's caretaker, and neither ever married as my mother with BPD sabotaged all their relationships with girlfriends. I can remember when one of my brothers was in kindergarten and he was friends with the little girl across the street who was in his class. Mom told me with absolute panic in her voice how upset she was that they liked each other.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Empathy.  I'm guessing many people on this board have high empathy skills.  It would seem to me that it comes with the territory.

This talk about "cognitive empathy" sent me to do more research.  I now see that there is a difference between cognitive empathy and emotional empathy.  

I'm guessing all of us here are pretty good at both of them. It was a necessary survival skill.

Since our parent with BPD raised us to be their caretakers (emotional incest, parentification), does it make sense to suggest they trained us to be their emotional empaths? And this is how they manipulate us?

I'm personally not sure that one can be "trained" to develop empathy... I think it is a matter of sensitivity, and partly a biological, innate characteristic one has when they are born. I think some people just have more sensitivity and empathy than others...

Looking at my daughter and son, it is clear to me that she is much more empathetic than he is. If he cries, she cries. he does too but for her, it's much more intense. It's like she feels what he feels ten fold. At three, she asked me if I still loved her when I was angry, because she noticed she didn't love me when she was angry... She just has this innate emotional sensitivity? I didn't train her for it. She just has it.

And I am sure you observed the same kind of sensitivity in your family, since you all have a mother with a PD. To me, this makes it more probable that our children and ourselves are highly sensitive too, or have high empathy?

I think part of the issue with BPD is exactly that... They are empaths, but trauma makes them shut down, and it's like they can't differentiate what they feel from what someone else is feeling sometimes. Covert narcissist on the other end just seems to lack emotional empathy altogether... While BPD might have too much of it? Which coupled with trauma make them lose themselves maybe... I don't know... Some thoughts..

My stepmother told me recently she had to learn that too, without BPD, she just... Felt others more than her, and she had to learn to differentiate who's emotion it was she was feeling, by asking herself what she felt seeing the other person emotion, until it became second nature. She just feels everyone around, even more than she feels herself.

I don't know if this helps but all this to say : chances are you were already very empathetic, you weren't trained, you just are. And I actually think this empathy might be why we were able to "make it out" without developing a PD ourselves ? But I'm just hypothesing here based on my observations on this forum so far... Maybe it is also that we had a stronger tendency to "dissociate", that we were biologically more resilient than our mothers were.

High sensitivity, strong empathy and low resilience, are the traits that really jumps out at me when I think about BPD. A covert narcissist might be high sensitivity, low empathy and low resilience, while we might have high sensitivity, high empathy and high resilience?

They did find a gene for resiliency recently. I mean, it's still the early stages of the research but... There is a gene for everything, isn't there?  

[Notwendy]

I think traits like low empathy, narcissism, and being an empath have a genetic component. My mother's FOO tends to have narcissism traits, my father's side, more empathetic.

I do think that we can get better at a skill with practice and our cognitive empathy was probably a useful skill that we got good at. We can read BPD mother's expressions in an instant and know if she's dysregulated and this helped us to know to keep a distance as kids. It's things like a vacant look in her eyes, slightly flushed cheeks- small signs but we can read her face and tell- and so I am aware of these subtle changes in other people.

Actually, BPD mother is good at this too. She is very good at "reading" people but what she does with this information is different. We combine this with emotional empathy for the person. I think for her, it's useful information but she doesn't feel emotional empathy for the person.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy, that's a very good point. I was talking about emotional empathy when I said empathy in my last answer... I should have taken the time to differentiate cognitive and emotional. 

[Methuen]

On this forum, there have been so many discussions and advice about us needing to learn to "let them feel their own feelings", and "not take on their feelings for them".  I was a beneficiary of this advice.  Until I read it, I didn't have the awareness it was happening.  That was a big light bulb moment that has pitted me on a long journey of recovery which is still in progress.  I believe it was Zachira (thank you!) who posted it in a reply to me about 3 years ago, and it often comes up in threads over and over again.  I have since passed the advice on to many other newbie posters when it is appropriate.

I guess this is where I was coming from when I asked the question: Since our parent with BPD raised us to be their caretakers (emotional incest, parentification), does it make sense to suggest they trained us to be their emotional empaths? And this is how they manipulate us?

So for those of us who are aware we were subjected to emotional incest and parentification, we probably have pretty good skills at recognizing when mama is getting emotional.  I for one always tried hard to "make her feel better" by doing exactly what she asked promptly and "perfectly", and going above and beyond doing "special things" for her, to win her love.  

Now I know this wasn't attainable.  When she isn't pleased by something, she splits and I become all black.

The constant is that I have always loved her and tried to take care of her.  Somehow, I always felt bad for her.  I definitely felt her feelings for her, and tried to do everything I could to make her feel better.  The pattern I noticed after Zachira's comment, was that when mom was happy, I was happy.  When mom was dysregulating, I felt terrible, and would try to fix it so both mom and I could feel better.  I tried so hard to be the "good daughter".  I failed, but I also know it's not my fault.

So since reading about covert narcissist on threads recently, and doing some research, and also reading about cognitive/emotional empaths, I've become quite curious.

I think it is widely acknowledged that nature and nurture have interplay.  When it comes to traits and behavior, yes we inherit certain genes, but environmental influences also play a role in how those genes get expressed.

So when I ask if it's possible that we were trained to be their emotional empaths, I am coming from a place of "is it possible we were groomed to take on their feelings for them, so that they could feel better?"  At the moment, this seems like a distinct possibility for my situation, although other's may have a different situation.  I'm more wondering, is it even possible?  If it is possible, it certainly makes it understandable how easily I am manipulated by her, whereas my husband isn't.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-narcissist-in-your-life/202006/7-ways-covert-narcissist-parents-groom-children-abuse

NW, I suspect you and I share some similar experiences and values.  We both have chosen to remain present for our mother's, and stay involved in their lives.  Does any of this resonate with you?

[Notwendy]

"is it possible we were groomed to take on their feelings for them, so that they could feel better?"

I believe this but in my situation, I think the groomer was my father more than my mother. I think she was the main groomer for GC who she preferred. GC is far more concerned with her feelings than I am, but I wanted approval from my father and this is how we kids got approval- try to make BPD mother feel better, which also included not upsetting her and obeying her.

I don't think this was conscious on my father's part. He was her enabler/co-dependent and his focus was to "make her feel better" so it made sense he'd be disapproving of anything we did that didn't also align with his goal and approving of anything that did.

[Methuen]

"is it possible we were groomed to take on their feelings for them, so that they could feel better?"

I believe this but in my situation, I think the groomer was my father more than my mother. I think she was the main groomer for GC who she preferred. GC is far more concerned with her feelings than I am, but I wanted approval from my father and this is how we kids got approval- try to make BPD mother feel better, which also included not upsetting her and obeying her.

Ah yes.  However it happens, I guess the result ends up being similar - and not great for the ones at the receiving end.

[Riv3rW0lf]

So when I ask if it's possible that we were trained to be their emotional empaths, I am coming from a place of "is it possible we were groomed to take on their feelings for them, so that they could feel better?"

Yes

This is how I felt with BPD mother when I spent time there last November.

But I would frame it this way (and I think this would feel different with a covert narcissist): we are both emotional empaths, except I am aware of my self, while she isn't. She doesn't "manipulate " using my empathy, my emotions, she feels them as their own!

So she mixes up my emotions with hers, while I read her perfectly and try to appease her.

But there is not appeasement possible, because I am not calm, I am PTSD. So it keeps on degenerating. I am split black, and everything becomes a mess.

I can read her perfectly and I do adapt my  behavior to appease her. In the case of BPD mother though, the only times I was able to calm her was when I was perfectly calm myself. When I am not, the dysregulation just keeps on going...she takes on MY stress and MY fear and makes them their own... If that makes sense.

I don't think the grooming was conscious... It just happened as a survival mode for me.

Just a guess but with a covert narcissist, I imagine there would be an extra layer of scapegoating... My BPD mother doesn't have a scapegoat or a golden child... It's part of her disease : the scapegoat and the golden child changes over time... I imagine covert narcissist would have a specific scapegoat because the abuse would be more "stable" in nature? Just an idea like that.

I also think the abuse would feel more "calculated"? I think, feeling like you were groomed might be an indicative in itself that you were dealing with a covert narcissist.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
Does it help in some ways to know what your mother does is deliberate and calculated? For me, it helps to know that my disordered relatives are deliberately cruel, and to feel less sorry and responsible for them.

[Notwendy]

This is an interesting idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWwQpXcSU2g

Zachira- yes, it helps and then in a way, I feel used and humiliated. I think to her, I am just something to play around with. I spoke to her the other day and then to one of her home health providers and she told me a completely different thing than she told them. Then she also called me back to mention "how expensive her home health care is" - she drops this fact out - I think actually to say " ha ha I am spending all this money" I think to get us upset because she thinks we want it or just to show us that she can do whatever she wants with it or shock us, because we are more conscientious and frugal? I don't know what she's up to but she's doing that on purpose and she does it because we have reacted to it by showing concern.

It gets an emotional reaction from us as we don't want her to run out but now our concern becomes narcissistic supply to her I think.

I call her to check on her, no other reason but she sees this as an opportunity to try to mess with me.

So, if I didn't call her for a while, I felt bad about that and so called her. But she just plays me as if I have no idea what she's up to. I'm going to call less, not in reaction to her but that, there's no point. She's not going to see it as a connection, but an opportunity to be manipulative.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
It seems you really have got your mother's number, and that you are correct in concluding you are narcissistic supply to her. It takes a lot of courage and exploration to be able to face that this is the kind of mother we have. My heart goes out to you. It looks like your mother is going to do everything she can to hurt you both before and after she dies. You are doing less for your mother now and not contacting her as much. Does that help you to feel less impacted from her behaviors? I have spent many hours grieving how badly my mother treated me when she was alive and after she died, how she set things up so that I will never be free from all the family cruelty and how many losses that can not be made up for. Do you think things are set up so you will be mostly free from your mother's influence after she dies?

[Notwendy]

Zachira- I don't even think that far ahead, it's all an unknown. I think what makes a difference between me and other family members is that there are no financial connections to any family members- so no grounds for any of us to be in drama with each other in that manner. Our relationships are voluntary.

It's hard to imagine someone doing hurtful things to others like that, but I don't put it past her. I don't really want anything that belongs to her. I mostly cared about my father, but since he's been gone, I don't really care about anything she owns.

[zachira]

I am glad your relationship with your mother is voluntary. This gives you choices I wish I had.

[Notwendy]

Actually, I meant other family members- siblings, etc. I am sorry that you had significant financial ties to your cruel family members which led to drawn out drama with them. Fortunately, I don't have financial ties. We can choose to associate with each other or not and not have it tied to financial consequences.

I have no financial ties with BPD mother- but I wouldn't say my connection is all choice. I'd not choose to have contact with anyone who treats me like she does. Spiritually/religiously/morally, I feel an important obligation to that relationship- the relationship itself. That matters to me. But I also don't feel obligated to tolerate her behaviors.

[Couscous]

I’m beginning to realize that the personality disorder issue is a bit of a red herring. I’m seeing that it doesn’t really matter whether or not it’s BPD, NPD, ASPD, HPD or codependency. It’s the pattern of non-stop manipulativeness that is what is most problematic — at least in my family.

This article really crystalized this for me: https://psychcentral.com/lib/how-to-spot-manipulation#is-manipulation-psychological-abuse

[Notwendy]

Yes, it's the behaviors that are problematic. The labels are about clusters of behaviors- and the labels are probably more useful in the diagnosis/treatment area. The labels point to a cause of possible treatment/management.

For instance, a behavior could be a child not paying attention at school- but the causes could be several reasons: ADD, anxiety, family problems, learning difficulties. The problem for the teacher and parents is the not paying attention. The professionals need to look for the reasons so they can decide on how to treat/manage it if that is possible.

I agree, the manipulation and lying is a large part of the difficulties of dealing with someone with BPD/NPD and other disorders. The actual label for us may have less use for us as we aren't in the position of a professional doing more with it.

The BPD label has helped to understand some of the reasons behind the behaviors- poor sense of self, projection. But you are correct- it's the interpersonal behaviors that are the ones that cause the difficulties because we are in a family relationship with them.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I personally think it might have made it easier to forgive my BPD mother, and to find back some sense of love and compassion for her, when I confirmed the label. I could suddenly learned more about the disorder, and what it meant for her and for me.

At the start, I felt incredible anger that I had to "excuse" her because she was BPD, but the more I healed, the more understanding and love I was able to find back, it it makes sense. As it turned out, I didn't have to force it... Feeling angry about it was just part of the journey.

So while she will still exhibit the behaviors that are problematic, I do feel a bit more strength now, and power, and detachment when I think about those behaviors .. but it's just a feeling, seeing how I have yet to officially break no contact. So this of course might actually all be a result from the no contact, and not from the "knowing the label" itself.

[Couscous]

Manipulative Personality Disorder would be a useful label IMHO.

[Notwendy]

I personally think it might have made it easier to forgive my BPD mother, and to find back some sense of love and compassion for her, when I confirmed the label. I could suddenly learned more about the disorder, and what it meant for her and for me.

The label led me to not take her behavior personally and realize it had nothing to do with me and that I can't change it. Before I hoped that maybe I could be "good enough" for her to treat me kindly but I see now that this isn't possible. A child doesn't have to be "good enough" for a mother to love them as if it is something they have to earn. That isn't unconditional love. Now, a child does need to learn acceptable behaviors to get along with people but that's different.

The NPD aspect of her allowed me to see where she manipulates me for her own needs and uses my empathy for her narcissistic supply. While I have "empathy" for her situation in general - the situation she's created for herself- at this point it's more of a personal value than something I am going to approach her with. It feels as if she's playing me like a cat with a toy and I don't want to allow her to do that.

[Riv3rW0lf]

The NPD aspect of her allowed me to see where she manipulates me for her own needs and uses my empathy for her narcissistic supply. While I have "empathy" for her situation in general - the situation she's created for herself- at this point it's more of a personal value than something I am going to approach her with. It feels as if she's playing me like a cat with a toy and I don't want to allow her to do that.

I am not in your situation, but if I project it on myself, I imagine that being able to label my mother as a covert narcissist, as opposed to a BPD, would somehow ease the guilt of being more firm and hard on my boundaries. Might be just me though... My mother is a textbook BPD, and while she exhibits many of the bad behaviors you observed in your mother, they still seem to be a bit less cruel and deliberate.

Do you feel the new label of covert narcissist helps at all relieve some of the guilt ? If there was any guilt really...maybe there wasn't too.

[Couscous]

  It feels as if she's playing me like a cat with a toy and I don't want to allow her to do that.

What are you thinking you could do to set limits around this behavior?

[Notwendy]

What are you thinking you could do to set limits around this behavior?

I am going to limit my contact with her even more. Although I feel uncomfortable not calling her after a while, it doesn't seem to matter how long it's been as she seems to see contact with me as an opportunity.

I hadn't called her in a while so I did and she spun a story to me on the phone that I knew was a complete lie, because I already knew the real one. I could tell she was manipulating me to set the stage for me to be kept in the dark about something. It was crafty and deliberate but I saw through it and something just changed for me. I just felt angry and disgusted. Not that I have much expectations of her but I think it just got to me that she's playing me--- again-- and there's no point in checking on her- she's only going to lie to me.

She has to see me as a fool and I feel like I am one to call her imagining that somehow maybe it will be for the good but I am just someone to mess with. I am not calling her. If she calls me, I may or may not answer but I will answer to see what she wants to talk about and if it's all lies, take it at that. But calling her is an invitation for her to mess with me and I see no reason to do that.

[zachira]

At the end of my mother's life, I did not call her. When she called me, I ended the conversation when it got to be too much for me. I really hated that our relationship had gotten to this point, and I could not take all the family dysfunction anymore that I had endured since I was born. We support your decision to go lower contact with your mother. You have been extremely kind and generous to your mother, and she does not appreciate your efforts. Being lied to is one of the most awful forms of abuse, especially when the lies are meant to manipulate and hurt you.

[Notwendy]

Thanks, Zachira, for your support.

There was something about that last phone call - the story she spun was complete BS, and deliberate and abusive but I didn't feel sad or hurt- I saw right through it and instead, felt angry and disgusted.

She doesn't have that many people who still show concern for her. It may be due to the pandemic or her, but her social circle is smaller and mostly she's with home health care. That is their job. You'd think she'd value a family relationship and maybe she does- except to her that value is an opportunity to manipulate. It's not that I expect her to change but that she's smart enough to know that it's in her best interest to not treat us like that- if even for selfish reasons- at least fake being decent.

But there's something about when I interact with her- she goes right into her game. She's ruthless and I could see this time that she really doesn't give a cr*p about me, and sees my calls as opportunities to manipulate for her own reasons- whatever they are.

[Methuen]

There was something about that last phone call - the story she spun was complete BS, and deliberate and abusive but I didn't feel sad or hurt- I saw right through it and instead, felt angry and disgusted. …But there's something about when I interact with her- she goes right into her game. She's ruthless and I could see this time that she really doesn't give a cr*p about me, and sees my calls as opportunities to manipulate for her own reasons- whatever they are.

I’m so sorry NW.  i think there comes a time when we accept it for what it is.  Just like the author of your slate article, you chose “you”.  You have done your best, and that is all you can do.  You have a whole community here that supports you. 

[Notwendy]

Thanks Methuen,

It's unfathomable to me as I can't even imagine thinking this way about people. The only people truly invested in her well being are her family. Everyone else is paid to assist her. It's counterintuitive to be cruel to family who are concerned- but that's her disorder and she must get some satisfaction out of lying and manipulating us- that narcissistic supply.

It's just so strangely warped to do this. 

[Notwendy]

I haven't called her since this post, and she mostly doesn't call me, but she did - so I answered.  I haven't gone NC with her, just less contact. She wants to talk to my kids when they visit at Thanksgiving weekend.  If they don't want to that is their choice. She was manipulative about it - that is the probable reason for her call. We'd have probably called her anyway on a holiday- we usually do, out of courtesy.

One of her home health care helpers is "leaving" soon. I suspect that this person has either quit or she dismissed them. BPD mother prefers helpers who don't know her, and so she can tell them what she wants them to know, rather than people who have been helping her for a while and have seen her behaviors.

It's a familiar pattern. I am concerned for her in the universal sense- sad that she seems to be in this cycle of behavior, this kind of control relationship with anyone around her. But this is the situation she has set up for herself and she has resisted any other suggestions or attempts for something different. I don't feel as emotionally concerned though as I know now - this is her choice- she's had other choices.

I feel for the home health workers who try to help her - and yet by seeing that she engages in similar drama with them that she does with her immediate family shows me that it isn't about us but how she relates to other people.

[zachira]

I feel for you having to go lower and lower contact with your mother as she reaches the end of her life. I had to do that with my mother and it was not how I wanted things to end. I wanted to keep being nice to her and reach an equilibrium in the relationship, in the sense that it would be far from a rewarding relationship yet setting the boundaries would be working without having to set stricter ones. I do believe that the stress of growing older, just make mothers like ours behave worse and worse, as they have less power to control situations and people as their mental and physical health gets worse. This then requires us to set stronger boundaries, and it never gets better. It sounds like as your mother becomes the one to initiate phone calls and you call her less and less that you may experience what I did, that the phone calls just become more unbearable and you will have to hang up sooner. My heart goes out to you, as I know how hurtful it is to be treated so badly by your own mother when you would like to end things on a more positive note with her, and she is not going to give you that.

[madeline7]

My very elderly uBPDm in a residential care facility has mostly stopped answering phone calls. When she needs something, she will call and on rare occasions, she will pick up the phone. She is not cognitively impaired, and it seems that she is deliberately self isolating and giving us the silent treatment. Although I do think she is depressed and lonely, I also think she is consciously doing this to punish us. I feel likes it's a long "con", and in the end, she wants us to suffer and feel "guilty" that we abandoned her there at the end of her life. I am trying to maintain the same amount of LC, but she is so manipulative, even in her advanced state, and is playing the hermit waif card to the point where she will be a shoe in for the Oscar in February. In some ways it is a relief to have VERY lc, but in others it is difficult because I do have empathy and would like to talk and visit occasionally. At this point, I am older and having some health issues, as is my husband. I thought about what would happen if there was a true emergency or bad news to be given to her. She would be playing her mind games and would not pick up the phone. A family member would have to call the nursing station to have a caregiver deliver her the news. At this point in my life, I should be able to focus on me without navigating the storm that is my Mother. Regardless of LC or NC, she continues to be a drain.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy,

I can only imagine the kind of impacts this whole situation would have on someone, the kind of toll it must take. My current situation is so different from yours, and so it is hard to find the right words.

What I can see though, and understand through your writing, is that it takes an incredible discipline to keep one from falling into the drama triangle, and you have it. I can only imagine how challenging this must feel at times, yet you hold on to your boundaries, seemingly keeping the fear, obligation and guilt at bay. I wanted to recognize your strength and self-awareness.

Also this :  

Madeline7, reading your story I mean... Of course I'd like to recognize you too and extend support.  

And zacchira, I am sorry you didn't get the final days you had hoped for with your mother. I think none of us will... And so you are right that we will likely grieve our mother, or the mother we never had, most,  if not all of our life.

[madeline7]

Thank you for your support Riv3rWOlf, it means a lot to me.

[Notwendy]

Thanks so much everyone-

Zachira- it's interesting you mentioned she's not going to give us peace of mind at this time, because my father didn't, and I think I in some ways hoped I might be able to make things better with my mother. Not that I could change her, but at least try for something different. I don't think things are hostile, but it seems every phone call has an agenda- and is manipulative, and it feels creepy.

Madeline- I understand the feeling of being punished and I have wondered about that too.

She just can't seem to grasp the idea of a cooperative relationship with anyone. The only possible relationship that is acceptable to her is master and servant. You have to be completely submissive to her- and not ask questions, not say anything except "yes" and do as she tells you to, to the very detail. Nobody can work with that. Her helpers try but she doesn't cooperate. She acts waify and then if anyone tries to help her, she won't let them. Then she blames you for not helping her.

It's possible she's "punishing" me, but she doesn't make the connection between her behavior and my wanting to keep a distance from her. What is confusing is that she seems to be doing this to Golden Child too. I don't know why she'd do that.

I think she may be stuck in some kind of replay of trauma with anyone who gets close to her. To her we become an "abuser" in some way and then, she "defends" herself. She will inevitably see people in that role- find something we did, or didn't do and then blame us for "hurting" her. She seems to sabotage attempts to be nice to her- I don't think she can see them, or the intentions of others who might actually be trying to be nice to her. In this replay, she takes control, humiliates others by putting them in subservient position, and is also abusive. The most logical explanation for this is that someone must have abused her along the way, probably when she was young and felt helpless. Now, she's in control and perhaps giving the "abuser" what she thinks they deserve but now, it's with people who never did that and wouldn't do that and we can't change how she feels or thinks.

Riv3rW0lf- thanks for your support. All our situations are different yet, there are similarities. I think we are all trying to do the best we can with a disordered family member, and sometimes NC is the best with can do, and for others, it's LC. While it is a challenge, in a way, seeing things from an adult perspective has helped me to understand what was going on when I was a teen, when I didn't understand what was going on. I kept trying to be "good enough" for my parents. I will still try to do my best to maintain a cordial relationship with my mother if possible but I don't need her approval to do that.

[zachira]

Your mother sounds a lot like my mother in that she can't handle people being kind to her. My mother would often go into a rage and say terrible untrue things about people who were incredibly kind to her for many years after she got sick; she never made any effort to reciprocate or acknowledge their kindness and generosity. I went out of my way to thank the people who were so kind and generous to mom for so many years both before and after mom died. It seems that with our mothers that perhaps the capacity for emotional empathy is missing which includes being unable to feel inside what it is like to feel cared for and loved by another human being. It almost like someone being genuinely kind to our mothers triggers their fears of abandonment and rage, because they can't internalize the loving feelings, as deep down they feel unlovable, can't be loved or love others.  

[Couscous]

NW, have you and your sibling ever sat down with your mother for a formal family business meeting to discuss her senior care plan and asked her the questions like the ones in the link below?

https://www.realsimple.com/health/preventative-health/aging-caregiving/questions-ask-aging-parents

[Notwendy]

Couscous- we have tried many times to have this discussion with her. She has written a general will and a POA ( GC and I have POA).

She will not disclose any financial information with us. Discussions about staying in her home or not lead nowhere.

These are the kinds of questions we have been trying to have with her and she won't do it. She gets agitated if someone asks her questions. We are not allowed to ask her any questions on any topic. And also we have no way to know if she's telling the truth or not.

The dynamics with her are- if she knows we want something - then she won't let us have it. We have tried many times to have discussions with her and it's evident she won't do it. I don't even bring up these topics as it's apparent she won't discuss them.

[Notwendy]

These are the kind of questions I naively tried to have with my parents when my father first became ill. My friends were doing these with their parents and I assumed it would work out in a similar way. I was not familiar with BPD at the time. I knew there was some kind of disorder with my mother but I still believed, if I was "good enough" I could get through to my parents and they'd see my true intentions were good.

And it failed.


For a grown child to have this discussion with a parent, I think the parent needs to be able to be honest with them, and also consideration goes both ways. These questions assume there is love between both of them. The parent also needs to be willing to share some control with the adult child over personal matters and finances. There needs to be mutual trust and respect for this kind of sharing to work. None of this was there with my parents. They were not loving, not kind, and not respectful. They had no reason to not trust me, but I don't trust my BPD mother.

I had hoped this kind of discussion would happen when GC visited, without me. I have already accepted she won't share this information with me, but surprisingly, not with GC either.

BPD mother  did agree to have this discussion with a nurse coordinator. I knew about that plan for that, but she lied to me and told me she wasn't going to do it when all along she had this plan. She did speak to the nurse but told the nurse she wasn't going to speak to family.  At this point, I have stepped away from any kind of discussion like this with her- I think it's clear she won't do it.

[Couscous]

So technically speaking she is having paranoid delusions, which is a common feature of BPD, but also of dementia. This might be something worth bringing up with her doctor.

https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/about-dementia/symptoms-and-diagnosis/delusions

[Notwendy]

I wondered about this too, but she's been evaluated and isn't mentally incompetent. I actually think her behavior is intentional. It's not quite paranoia- I think it's projection. If she'd do it, she assumes we would too. I don't like to lie but I have done it to keep boundaries with her.

If she knows we want something- that is what she won't give us, because she wants control. She knows we want to have these discussions and has been refusing this, for years now.

Fortunately, she is willing to hire people to help her and she has great medical care. Her doctor sees her frequently and knows her well. I think she's in good hands. On my part, I think I don't really care much anymore about what she does with her own money and her own decisions. I feel as if I have tried all I can. She won't be honest about it. She's going to do whatever she wants to do.

I do think she's intentionally trying to be punitive by not having these discussions so I have disengaged from them.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
You are doing a great job in disengaging from conversations with your mother that are not going to lead to any kind of productive results.

[Couscous]

She definitely seems to be dealing with paranoia, and I wonder if she may also have Paranoid Personality Disorder, because it sounds like she is this way much of the time. Paranoid ideation in someone with BPD is normally stress induced.

I don’t think it’s particularly helpful to assume that everything she does is done with the intent to hurt you, although it does sound like she does engage in deliberately hurtful actions too, but perhaps not quite as much as you think. But either way, it does sound like no longer personalizing her behavior and disengaging is your best option.

[Notwendy]

Thanks, it's hard to know what her exact motive is. Her thinking is so disordered. You are right about not taking it personally. I can see now that she does this with everyone- so it's her, not anyone else. Sad for her, but it's beyond my ability to do anything about it.

[Couscous]

Right, and I would go further to say that even if she does do some things only to you, it is still about her and not you.

[Notwendy]

Thanks. It's a sad situation for her, but I know I can't do anything to change how she thinks.

[Couscous]

I actually think it’s sadder for us than it is for them. They seem to be so walled off emotionally that they probably can’t feel much if anything, especially not painful feelings.

I’ve heard it said that there really are just two emotions: fear and love. Your mother is ruled by fear, so she does what she needs to do to feel safe, even if it drives away the people who love her. Protecting herself is her highest priority and as such, there is no room in her life for loving relationships or happiness.

Think of her as an abused stray cat that refuses all attempts to be rescued because she’s too frightened of people. Even though you have cosy house with a warm fire burning, a soft cushion and bowl of milk ready for her, she would rather stay outside in the cold and rain than risk stepping inside your door.

Your mother has probably learned from experience that family cannot be trusted, and that is a very sad thing indeed. 

[Methuen]

Think of her as an abused stray cat that refuses all attempts to be rescued because she’s too frightened of people. Even though you have cosy house with a warm fire burning, a soft cushion and bowl of milk ready for her, she would rather stay outside in the cold and rain than risk stepping inside your door.

Great analogy, and a direct result of unresolved trauma.  In their day, there was not much if anything in resources for dealing with trauma.  In addition, it wasn't culturally acceptable to "get help".  That somehow would mean you were "weak" and there was something wrong with you. There was (and is) so much shame in acknowledging mental illness, which is widely acknowledged as stemming from trauma as much as inheriting certain genes.

I am somewhat hopeful that the culture is shifting with younger generations, and there seems to be more acknowledgement of mental health issues, and open mindedness to getting help.  In some quarters, having a T can even be trendy, which is also kind of odd, in a privileged sort of way.

It's kind of sad that in the past, society and culture has readily accepted help for physical trauma, but not for reasons around emotional trauma.  Meanwhile, the damage from emotional trauma seems to have a big multiplier effect.  Just look at intergenerational trauma (which stays in families for generations), not to mention the butterfly effect of carnage resulting from leaders behind some of the wars that have happened in the world throughout history.   

How much money could be saved if as much investment was put into helping resolve emotional trauma as helping physical trauma?  Just thinking out loud in a philosophical kind of way here.

It's a miserable life the cat leads who chooses to stay outside in the cold and rain and be hungry because of fear, rather than take a risk and go inside the house with an open door and warmth and food, and cuddly love.

And yet I fear my mother...but at least I can also love other people.  I don't think she truly knows what love is.  But that's another story.

[Methuen]

On my part, I think I don't really care much anymore about what she does with her own money and her own decisions. I feel as if I have tried all I can. She won't be honest about it. She's going to do whatever she wants to do.

I do think she's intentionally trying to be punitive by not having these discussions so I have disengaged from them.

This is where I am too NW.  I disengaged from the drama and mom's litany of bad decisions. To me, it seems like self-sabotage.  One subtle difference in our mothers is that yours leans heavily towards the punitive side, while mine leans heavily towards my weakness - feeling guilty.  She makes me feel terrible. I just don't even have the words to articulate how bad she could make me feel.  She used to be punitive in a vengeful kind of way in the past (an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth), but that changed as she got older.  The punitive thing didn't really work against me, but the guilt thing really really did.  So she uses more FOG strategies cs they're so successful.  Both our mom's lie.  They don't think of it as lying because they actually believe their own lies (anything they think, they say, and this becomes a fact for them).  I truly believe my mom can't see that her lies are lies, because they're swimming in a mountain of denial and other self-defense strategies.  It's distorted thinking.  And their distorted thinking is still "real" for them, and is their truth.

I'm sorry that you're going through this with your mom.  But I think that so many of us with BPD mom's are coming through the other end of it by detaching and letting them keep their control of their decisions.  They live with the consequences of their decisions.  We have to let them live with those consequences.  They want the control.  They are adults.  They can have their control.  We on the other hand, can have our boundaries.

As Couscous says, it is sad for us because we can see the problems, the unnecessary suffering they put themselves (and us) through as a result of their decisions.  But I don't see any other way, because any other way leads to them controlling us, intolerable conflict, mental unwellness for us, and that big black hole we are all fighting to stay outside of.

[Notwendy]

As Couscous says, it is sad for us because we can see the problems, the unnecessary suffering they put themselves (and us) through as a result of their decisions.  But I don't see any other way, because any other way leads to them controlling us, intolerable conflict, mental unwellness for us, and that big black hole we are all fighting to stay outside of.

I think it's the inevitable decision- to detach. We can't change it or make it different for them, at some point, we just have to decide it's how they choose it. You have done so much for your mother, living closer to her. It's hard to feel we have done enough when it seems nothing we do is enough, but you have done a lot for your mother.

[Couscous]

Notwendy,

I came across SMART Recovery when looking into alternatives to 12 Step meetings, and have found their approach, which is based on a form of CBT called REBT, to be exceptionally helpful.

Here is a brief explanation of REBT which may be of interest to you:

www.rebtnetwork.org/whatis.html

And here us something on the concept of unconditional other acceptance, which I think is very similar to radical acceptance:

https://www.smartrecovery.org/usa-and-uoa-unconditional-self-acceptance-and-unconditional-other-acceptance/

[Notwendy]

Thanks, it looks interesting- I will look into it.