Always Maybe - Patterns and Cycles?

[OKrunch]

Hello everybody, I have been reading posts here for how about two months now. I have a few questions, but let me give kind of a background breakdown first.
I'm currently 35, with one child from a previous relationship, my son is 7.
She also has a daughter from a previous relationship who is 11.
Our kids get along SO WELL, they love eachother.



Oct 2019 - Met Ex/Estranged GF, Relationship started off well. Slow, open communication.

Dec 2019 - Relationship gets serious. we become exclusive.

March 2020 - (albiet rushed, due to Covid) we Moved in together. Things are still great.

June 2020 - We got on an amazing vacation to get a puppy.

August 2020 - Things begin to decline, fights increase, she begins pulling away.

Nov/Dec 2020 - She has been berating and devaluing me for months now. She snaps and kicks me (and my son) out. I move to a friends house two towns over.

Feb/March 2021 - after a period of NC, she begins reaching out, but is dating someone else. I set my boundaries and said don't reach out unless its with non-platoinic intent.



April/June 2021 - Periodical contact continues, she hints that rebound guy is gone, but then he isn't. then he is.



June/July 2021 - Rebound guy is gone, and we begin hanging out again.

Aug 2021 - We get back together and I move back in.

Aug 21 - Jan 2022 - Things are pretty great.

Jan-March 2022 - She hits a seasonal depression hard, i am very supportive despite many fights. Things eventually improve.

April - June 2022 - She has gotten a great new job, things are amazing, we take a great vacation with the kids. Got a 2nd puppy. I proposed on the vacation in June, she jubilantly says yes. The kids are thrilled.



July 2022 - Sept 2022 - The decline begins almost as soon as we are settled back in from vacation. Small fights turn into big ones. 1 week silent treatment spells. She drinks for the first time in YEARS. She also had many Medication changes and forgot to take meds many times during this period. She had started at a new Gym about this time and would stop about how amazing it was blah blah.

Sept 22nd - She snaps again and DEMANDS me (and my son) dont come home.

Oct 2022 - She is mean, cold cruel and demanding regarding moving my stuff out.

Nov 6th - After about 4 weeks of NC, she messages me saying she needs to talk about something important. Then when i didnt immediately call, she says "its no big deal nevermind" i told her to call me later that day, she does and informs me she is pregnant and has a termination appointment. Has been pregnant since late July and didnt know (i actually believe this, she has repoductive health complications that would mask a pregnancy) She blames pregnancy hormones for her reactions and mood swings in July-Sept. But tells me im to blame because of my reactions to them.
During the days leading up to the termination appointment, she is warm and almost flirty.
Then the appointment comes and goes, she is still in touch, updating me on her condition. Then backs off again. The next week she reached out to discuss our cat that had ran off. I asked about meeting up to catch up, and got a "maybe", which turned into a "we had better not" after i again stated i have no intentions on a platonic relationship.



Today - I had gone back to NC since the week of Nov 13th. She texted this morning asking about stuff related to the house/rent. We have had a warmish convo today and again i asked about hanging out this coming weekend. Got another "Ill think about it"

and she added "im still worried about the percentage of possibility that hangs over the situation", which is in reference to the "i cant be friends, ill always have feelings and we have too much history for me to not pursue you in a romantic fashion if we were to meet up in person" i had told her last week.

She has not been responsive to the light amount of flirt i put into todays conversation, so im expecting that the "ill think about it" will turn into another "We had better not" by the weekend.
--------------------------------------------------------------

She seems to dysregulate every year around between July and Sept.

2019 - She had left her ex "A few months back" when we first met in Oct 2019.
2020 - I was devalued through the fall, and discarded and sent packing the last week of Nov.

2021 - She devalued rebound fella around July/August. Was fine with me thru Christmas, but Jan-March were awful.
2022 - April through June were great, and then the rapid devalue after the engagement led to being kicked out almost the same time as I had been in 2020. I am blocked on all but texting, and i know she made a tinder. So despite "working on herself" she ahs her dating feelers out.



She is DIAGNOSED cptsd, and her therapist has mentioned many borderline tendencies. Very strong background of childhood abuse. Her therapy didnt really begin in ernest for these things until this summer/fall. Previously all her mental health care came via her primary care doctor.

So here are my questions :
1. Whats up with the constant Maybe's? she did this a bit during 2021 also, but i had assumed this was because of rebound guy.
2.  I am working with MY therapist to figure out why i cannot let go of this. But man its hard. Why do i love someone who hurts me? when she is not dysregulated she is the most caring, kind, driven and intelligent woman ever.

3. Since we BEGAN to have an understanding of her trauma, needs and triggers, i really feel like we can overcome this. But i may just be hopeful.

4. The cyclical nature and rerepeated patterns of the BPD fascinate me, has anyone else seen these types of consistent patterns?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[OKrunch]

Also worth mentioning. This is her last chance to say something productive.
If this "Ill think about it" turns into a no, I am going to send something to this effect in response. Let me know if there is anything you'd change about this.

"While I appreciate you taking the time to consider hanging out again, I will not continue to ask.
Additionally, I must ask for you to only reach out if it is crucially important to do so, or if you have romantic intentions. I can not hang around waiting to be your second choice or backup plan. When i asked you to be my wife, i offered you all of who I am, and i was very sad when things broke down again and you backed away from that commitment, and the commitment to the family we were building. I never would have left, and always wanted to make things work.  There have been several instances where you have reached out recently that weren't totally necessary to do so. If you need to speak to the landlord, you can, its your house and I don't live there anymore by your choice, I am no longer involved in the household and you can manage those things yourself. The same can be said of the assistance program. You have contacts for both of these things and could have handled them without reaching out to me. While I know you care about me, the push and pull type of dynamic you have been exhibiting is too stressful for me to deal with, so again, unless you have romantic intents, please refrain from reaching out to me and as you put it "Disrupting the peace I am building". Please either mail my remaining belongings or drop them off at my work. You can just Venmo me the assistance money on the first of the month each month. I have always wanted to fix things and work together through therapy and mutual communication. I do believe you are my soul mate, but i cannot work on a one sided relationship.

If you change your mind and want to spend time together, you know that I am welcome to that idea. I miss talking with you and enjoying eachcothers company. I miss your humor and your wit, but I cannot entertain the idea of a platonic relationship with you and unless you have romantic intent or at least are open to that idea in the future, please let me have space.

Thank you, I hope you are well, Best Wishes.

[OKrunch]

While i was typing the above, she texted me and told me that she doesnt think hanging out is a good idea. I sent the message i typed above. Well see if i get a response.

Honestly putting up a healthy barrier feels good. It hurts but it feels productive.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

Welcome to the 'family'.

I'm limited on time, and your 'text' message also indicates that you have a pretty good head on your shoulders and you know what you want.  To me your explanation is very reasonable; however, rarely in a borderline relationship will it work that way.  As I have limited time I will give you some short answers, if you want me to expand let me know, and I will in the next day or two.

1. Whats up with the constant Maybe's? she did this a bit during 2021 also, but i had assumed this was because of rebound guy.
it's a girl's way of thinking that she has insurance and will not commit to anything, so she has an 'out' if she changes her mind.  I don't think that this is BPD, as my pwBPD [undiagnosed wife] doesn't do this, but I did notice this in another relationship that was not BPD, but more of not knowing what she wants, and wants to be able to change her mind with little to no consequence.  If anything I have observed that it is the opposite with a BPD where there is a definite "yes/no" answer as it is part of the "black/white" thinking patterns that they have, I rarely get a 'maybe'.

2.  I am working with MY therapist to figure out why i cannot let go of this. But man its hard. Why do i love someone who hurts me? when she is not dysregulated she is the most caring, kind, driven and intelligent woman ever.
More than likely the 'trauma bond' working here with a 'push-pull' relationship that you have already identified as you described in your text message.

3. Since we BEGAN to have an understanding of her trauma, needs and triggers, i really feel like we can overcome this. But i may just be hopeful.
With my pwBPD, these change if she is 'splitting' or not.  Her triggers vary from day to day, and there are hundreds of them.  While you can account for many of them, you cannot account for all of them, especially with other interpersonal dynamics, such as those at her work, family, and aquaintences.  In order for this to change, she needs to become 'self-aware,' and she needs to do the changing which is unlikely unless she is 'self-aware'.  You cannot fix her.  You can only change you, not her.  Drill down on "SaltyDawg" [to the left] to see some of my other posts on my struggle to get my wife become 'self-ware.'  Keep in mind this is exceptionally rare where they become 'self-aware' so they can do the necessary work on doing the right thing and make things better.

4. The cyclical nature of repeated patterns of the BPD fascinate me, has anyone else seen these types of consistent patterns?
Yes, there are indeed many many patterns, large ones, and small ones, and they have different frequencies.  Most of the smaller ones last several minutes to a few hours, occasionally a few days, but rarely longer than that [splitting and rages].  Then there are larger patterns too of the 'lovebombing, devalue, discard, h-o-o-v-e-r' cycle that you so meticulously documented with your detailed timeline that is typical for BPD/NPD.

  potentially triggering content follows, only because this post is in the "Bettering a Relationship or Reversing a Breakup" section  

Your text message has a thinly veiled ultimatum in it.  Do not make ultimatums unless you are willing to follow through on it.

I also recommend reading up on it, you will get a lot more explanation there than you would in therapy -- these two are good starter books on the topic:

Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life
Book by Margalis Fjelstad

Stop Walking on Eggshells
Book by Paul T. Mason and Randi Kreger

[OKrunch]

Thank you for your kind words, and wise ones. I will definitley look into those books.

She did not respond very well to the message i sent.
She mentioned she had been up front about her emotions (which she had, but other times been flirty). She accused me of being incessant, and blaming her. She said "I was too angry to even finish reading this"

My concept is this. If she reaches out, and we get chatty, eventually after a dozen or so texts, I ask to hang out in person, because im not interested in texted breadcrumbs. Show up or don't.

So my "being incessant" has been that ive asked to hang out the last two times she has gotten chatty with me. Both which ended in the same response. "Ill think about it" which turns that day or the day after to "its best we shouldn't. too many messy emotions"

She has also said Several times in the past "She CANT say no to me", like I am some sort of addictive substance. Today i was accused of using this knowledge to my advantage to be manipulative.

So there have been ways she has been up front about being unsure, and having "messy emotions" and so on. Did I err here?

[waverider]

The past is a clear indication of the future. While you may understand the mechanisms of BPD YOU cant reverse it. The dramas and issues are symptoms of the disorder. Fixing individual symptoms does not change the process. Fresh new versions of these symptoms will simply replace them.

BPD thinking is a fundamental way someone process their thoughts, sometimes they have toxic presentations, sometimes not, but the process is the same and presentation is often a reflection of whether their immediate needs are being met.

The more you know about BPD then the more the "good" presentations become tarnished as the authenticity and ulterior motives start to be questioned. So the highs become less of a recompense, your praise in response becomes less this then triggers invalidation, leading to escalation.

You have a son who is also a pinball in this relationship game, be careful you are responsible for the influences he is exposed to, you cant have this time over again.

Having you within reach, but at arms length, is validating, and also fending off abandonment issues, a classic BPD symptom which is not normally present in CPTSD.

Also be wary of CPTSD diagnosis as pwBPD will often prefer this diagnosis and will prevent evidence to therapists to guide it this way, as this implies being victim. Endless imagined victimhood is a BPD presentation.

Bottom line is all will not be as it seems to be, and the past is not over with a new fresh beginning in the offering. Can you live with a rinse repeat?

[OKrunch]

Thanks for the replies thus far.

Yea, despite my "Savior" complex, i have learned from our first breakup/reconcilliation/breakup that I cannot fix or prompt the fixing of this. Only therapy can help there, and she needs to want it.

I do feel bad after yesterday's interaction, and here is why.

I had sent my message that clearly stated "Dont lead me on". The thing she flipped out about was the fact that i had implied this, when she HAS been upfront about her not having emotions for our relationship, or romantic intent.
So i mentioned being lead on, when i should have said something to the effect of "you keeping this open line of casual communication is not conducive with my healing process" or something.

There have been comments in the recent past that could certainly be "leading on", such as,

" I don't want to build up any hope in that department yet"
" i had considered that" (when i asked about not having labels, being intimate, and just trying to start fresh, this was right around the pregnancy situation)
"I'm not ready for that yet"
and constantly being told "maybe" or "ill think about it" when offered to spend time together.

Part of me feels like she flipped out because I was perceivably "taking back power".
Maybe she was just offended by the thought i was being lead on?

I cant seem to stop trying to rationalize and understand these triggers and patterns.
My job is very slow and i have a lot of time alone at work, which doesnt help in my ruminating.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

I will highlight a few quotes that stand out for me from you and waverider...

Also worth mentioning. This is her last chance to say something productive.
If this "Ill think about it" turns into a no, I am going to send something to this effect in response. Let me know if there is anything you'd change about this.

"While I appreciate you taking the time to consider hanging out again, I will not continue to ask.
Additionally, I must ask for you to only reach out if it is crucially important to do so, or if you have romantic intentions. I can not hang around waiting to be your second choice or backup plan. When i asked you to be my wife, i offered you all of who I am, and i was very sad when things broke down again and you backed away from that commitment, and the commitment to the family we were building. I never would have left, and always wanted to make things work.  There have been several instances where you have reached out recently that weren't totally necessary to do so. If you need to speak to the landlord, you can, its your house and I don't live there anymore by your choice, I am no longer involved in the household and you can manage those things yourself. The same can be said of the assistance program. You have contacts for both of these things and could have handled them without reaching out to me. While I know you care about me, the push and pull type of dynamic you have been exhibiting is too stressful for me to deal with, so again, unless you have romantic intents, please refrain from reaching out to me and as you put it "Disrupting the peace I am building". Please either mail my remaining belongings or drop them off at my work. You can just Venmo me the assistance money on the first of the month each month. I have always wanted to fix things and work together through therapy and mutual communication. I do believe you are my soul mate, but i cannot work on a one sided relationship.

If you change your mind and want to spend time together, you know that I am welcome to that idea. I miss talking with you and enjoying eachcothers company. I miss your humor and your wit, but I cannot entertain the idea of a platonic relationship with you and unless you have romantic intent or at least are open to that idea in the future, please let me have space.

Thank you, I hope you are well, Best Wishes.

This is her last chance to say something productive.  This was the ultimatum part I previously mentioned.
I will not continue to ask. ...ultimatum continued...
I can not hang around waiting to be your second choice or backup plan.   ...ultimatum continued...
unless you have romantic intents, please refrain from reaching out to me  ...ultimatum continued... Also, are you in it for the intensely passionate romance, I get it - I've been there, and it makes it that much more difficult to leave, as it is very intoxicating.
Please either mail my remaining belongings or drop them off at my work.  with this statement, you already know about the status of your relationship even though you don't want it to end, you have already said it here in a less direct way.
i cannot work on a one sided relationship.  ...more ultimatum...
I cannot entertain the idea of a platonic relationship with you and unless you have romantic intent or at least are open to that idea in the future ...more ultimatums...  You want romance and commitment to it, or nothing at all.

The past is a clear indication of the future. While you may understand the mechanisms of BPD YOU cant reverse it. The dramas and issues are symptoms of the disorder. Fixing individual symptoms does not change the process. Fresh new versions of these symptoms will simply replace them.

BPD thinking is a fundamental way someone process their thoughts, sometimes they have toxic presentations, sometimes not, but the process is the same and presentation is often a reflection of whether their immediate needs are being met.

The more you know about BPD then the more the "good" presentations become tarnished as the authenticity and ulterior motives start to be questioned. So the highs become less of a recompense, your praise in response becomes less this then triggers invalidation, leading to escalation.

You have a son who is also a pinball in this relationship game, be careful you are responsible for the influences he is exposed to, you cant have this time over again.

Having you within reach, but at arms length, is validating, and also fending off abandonment issues, a classic BPD symptom which is not normally present in CPTSD.

Also be wary of CPTSD diagnosis as pwBPD will often prefer this diagnosis and will prevent evidence to therapists to guide it this way, as this implies being victim. Endless imagined victimhood is a BPD presentation.

Bottom line is all will not be as it seems to be, and the past is not over with a new fresh beginning in the offering. Can you live with a rinse repeat?

You said, I have always wanted to fix things  You cannot fix her, you can only work on yourself, reflect where it went wrong and fix whatever you find...

WaveRider said, Fixing individual symptoms does not change the process  Only she can fix the individual symptoms, likewise, you can only fix things that you are in control of, and that is you.

Side note to waverider, thanks for that insight, my wife and I are fixing the more apparent symptoms, right now...  I need to be very wary of this going forward in my own journey with my uBPDw who is improving for now.  As I am in 'uncharted' territory, I need all the insight I can to navigate this minefield.

Saving the more important points for last.  Waverider is correct about your son, while you are a victim, you son is too if you keep him in the pinball relationship game.  Is the rinse and repeat worth it for him?  It might be for you, but you are opening up a whole set of potential mental health issues for him if this is not done with the utmost care.  Since there is no biological connection with your son, your foregone conclusion of separation carries less moral consequences.  However, you don't mention if she is pregnant with your child, or a rebound guy's child, or did she ultimately terminated the pregnancy -- if it is still on the way, and it is yours, this complicates things so much more... 

[OKrunch]

Satly,

The pregnancy was from me, from July. She went to the termination appointment, and followed through.

I agree, i cannot fix anything outside my locus of control. When i refer to fixing things, im referring to us both going to individual and couples therapy. Communicating, etc.

Yes, i obviously do not want my son caught up in this "pinball" situation as you mentioned.
Im working on attachment issues and codependency with my therapist.

Her and I had a pretty huge blowout fight today. The first real fight since i got kicked out. She is still pretty angry about the way i worded my boundary message. I did blow some things out of proportion. My therapist said this is due to the fact that ive had all this bottled up for the last two months while we were barely communicating.

As far as the ultimatum tone, its hard, i have to FORCE myself to try and be cold. to TEAR myself away from how i want to act with her, which is loving and supporting. But that's not a two way street right now, so i cannot put myself out there to be hurt.

I do feel bad i used the term "push and pull" as she had been pretty clear about why she had said no to hanging out. She was trying to protect her feelings too. My bitterness caused me to only think about my own feelings.

We both expressed regret for fighting today, and we have both said we need to not communicate and do our own healing.
It hurts. I do and always have want to be there to hear what she's going through, help her rationalize it, I want to help the woman i love through a dark journey in her life. Yet the volatility of the whole situation prevents this.

I have tried talking to other women, it turns to ash in my mouth. I compare them to her. Its unhealthy. But loneliness is a hell of a drug.

[waverider]

Just a quick question, are you trying to project your need to say we are done, onto her, so that she makes the final call not you, that way you can walk away knowing you have done everything you can, and not walked away from a problem you failed to fix?

Lots of ultimatums, which realistically you know wont be met, is often a method of doing this. A need to, but reluctance to, cut the cord?

[OKrunch]

Honestly, just me trying to control my responses to her.
Like quitting an addictive habit, im trying to force myself to kick the habit that is this relationship .

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

Keep working on therapy for yourself.

I am fairly sure you know the answer to your quandary, but are unwilling to tackle it any more than you already have.  It sucks, I was there, and still am there even though there has been some recent progress on the issue -- I am hoping the for the best, but preparing for the worst.

[OKrunch]

Yesterday wore me out. really huge fight, over so many stupid things.

I'm just spent on this whole thing. Focusing on myself, my living situation and mostly my lad.

The Great Magnet will provide, so long as I am working the forge.

[Rev]

Hey OKrunch - what a great thread. I brings me back to the dynamics I experienced. Ultimately, I had to leave because she was abusive and bankrupting us.

For what its worth here are my answers to your questions:

1. Whats up with the constant Maybe's? she did this a bit during 2021 also, but i had assumed this was because of rebound guy. People with mood disordered live is a disordered way. Pretty much everything happens in the moment. pwBPD live in a world of feelings based facts. The "maybe" likely comes out of emotional dysregulation and turbulence in the moment - which causes fear - and then a feeling of "I hate you - don't leave me" (also the title of a good book) - AND - so out of fear comes a "maybe".

2.  I am working with MY therapist to figure out why i cannot let go of this. But man its hard. Why do i love someone who hurts me? when she is not dysregulated she is the most caring, kind, driven and intelligent woman ever.  How is that going?  My T and coach got me to focus on where my limits were - as in what was my bottom line and then to find the fortitude to stick to it, even if I wasn't feeling it emotionally in the moment if I was having a down day. From there, I have come up with the mantra that to answer the question you are asking (which we are all asking ourselves here) you need to give your body time to catch up to your mind. There's a great book out there on adult relationships called "Attached".  Highly recommended.

3. Since we BEGAN to have an understanding of her trauma, needs and triggers, i really feel like we can overcome this. But i may just be hopeful. Hard for me to answer this, but my thoughts are that until she remains regulated for a significant amount of time then this is just temporary - see your next question.

4. The cyclical nature and rerepeated patterns of the BPD fascinate me, has anyone else seen these types of consistent patterns?  Yes - this is typical. Often pwBPD will dysregulate close to family holidays as well.

As far as your text, I agree that there is an implicit ultimatum which rarely works well - communication strategy needs to be about minimizing emotional escalation and giving your partner to literally calm down.  Think of this as not giving a child who over tired and crank more candy rather than putting on soothing music and giving them some space in a comfortable spot for them with some coloring books or lego to play with.

We have an expression here :  Don't J.A.D.E.  

Don't  JUSTIFY
Don''t  ARGUE
Don't  DEFEND
Don't   EXPLAIN.

So, if you were to rewrite your text with only factual information, leaving any of your own emotions out of your words, leaving out any expectations you might have, etc, and do that in six sentences or less, what might you write.

Thanks for this.

Again,

Great thread.

Rev

[OKrunch]

Rev- Thanks for the kind words. I already have a copy of "attached" (So does She) and its pretty amazing. Im not done with it yet. Ill look into the other you mention.

To answer your question, if i re-wrote my message (already sent it to her, so cat's out of the bag, but here goes)

"Since our separation, we have had a pretty open line of communication. While some of that has been pleasant, I must ask for more space. If you change your mind about spending time together, let me know, otherwise I'd appreciate the distance. Reaching out about important financial stuff is fine, as those things need to be taken care of. As far as the belongings of mine you have, you can mail them or drop them off here, whatever works. Thanks"

I couldn't get to sleep last night, my emotional chemicals were running rampant, which caused me to sleep in this morning.
I missed 2 calls from her at 7am, and a message about 45 min later saying

"I didn't mean to call. I was calling my daughter to make sure she got up for the bus and hit your name on accident. There were so many calls from yesterday it was hard not to hit it by accident (eye rolling emoji)"

I said, "Ok i understand."

Who uses call history to make a new call?
And why call twice?
*visible confusion*

[Rev]

Rev- Thanks for the kind words. I already have a copy of "attached" (So does She) and its pretty amazing. Im not done with it yet. Ill look into the other you mention.

"Since our separation, we have had a pretty open line of communication. While some of that has been pleasant, I must ask for more space. If you change your mind about spending time together, let me know, otherwise I'd appreciate the distance. Reaching out about important financial stuff is fine, as those things need to be taken care of. As far as the belongings of mine you have, you can mail them or drop them off here, whatever works. Thanks"



I said, "Ok i understand."

Who uses call history to make a new call?
And why call twice?
*visible confusion*

OUTSTANDING responses ... Don't worry about the earlier response. There's no cumulative effect. The good things you don't count, BUT, the "mistakes" you will make won't add up either. Once you get to that place of understanding, and you look at her differently,  you can make space to grieve the loss for you and your son.

Why call twice?  ... Rhetorical question, right?

That happened all the time with me.

Hang in there. Sounds like you are on the right path.

Rev.

[OKrunch]

the phone call thing just kinda cracks me up honestly.

Like, its obvious she didnt call on accident. She called twice, and She got lucky i didnt answer because she obviously regretted calling. So when i asked about it, it get turned around to make me look needy.

Lol's

[OKrunch]

Ive got to find more ways to keep busy during work. I have so much down time here and it leaves me soo much time to ruminate.

The thought that the fight yesterday means were never going to have a pleasant conversation again is kinda freaking me out.

Logic and History would tell me otherwise, as ive been told more than once in the past things like "I hate you" "ill never speak to you again" "I wish we never met" etc.
Because naturally everything is my fault.

Amazing how the addicted brain can rationalize anything and create fear out of nothing.

[Rev]

Ah... the ruminations.

In the first month I put almost 5000k kms (3500 miles) on my car driving in the middle of day and middle of the night. Thank God I wasn't working, and I was couch surfing at a really good friend of mine with his family.  I did most of the cooking for them because that kept me busy.

Eventually, I stopped ruminating about her - which was my de-tox - and started ruminating about what I wanted for myself.   And eventually, I just stopped ruminating (although I still think about her - not even remotely possible to forget what I lived) and I am, after 3 years, truly living my best life ever.

So - as much as it sucks right now, you are on the right path.

And yes - the phone calls ---- a sense of humor is a great tool. The way I see it, the more sarcastic the better.

Hang in there.

Rev

[OKrunch]

i F**kn miss her and want to go home, i miss my dogs. I miss hearing our kids laugh together.

[SaltyDawg]

I feel your pain.  I can't imagine going what you are going through.

Try to find comfort in the knowledge of what others have said, it will get better, even though you feel that you've reached rock bottom.

When you've reached rock bottom, there's only one way to go, and that's up!

[OKrunch]

My mind is like a pendulum, swinging between "Think of how many times she has thrown you and your son away. Nobody that ever respected you could rip your entire life away and not look back. Twice." and "She is sick, this isnt her fault. Its her childhood trauma, we were getting better at communicating. I wasn't HEARING her needs i was only listening to her problems, Ill never meet anyone as close to her that is my soul match. If only you had listened when she needed you"

Then its the kids, the dogs, the house, the vacations, the holidays. All the times things were amazing, and we were building a future.
Im either Irate or i am severely depressed and self critical.

whats more, is ive done this before, and last time i felt the same way i do now at 9 months separated just before we started getting back together.

I know i must walk my own road, and not doing NC correctly has not helped me. Its damn near impossible. Anything as simple as a text about finances and i try to find a way to turn the conversation friendly or intimate.

I do believe she loves me deep down, its herself she doesnt love. I am the only real relationship shes had. Her other long term one was abusive, and involved drugs (shes 9 years clean). Its just the Splitting. I see it plain as day, even with old conversations from our first breakup. When shes in a good mood, she can't help but show care, even if its subtle, but she goes off like a short fused M80 at the slightest provocation if shes already upset or depressed about something else.

Ive told her id never abandon her, ill always be where she pushed me away to. Ive told her i will not chase (even though ive failed at that before), and ive had good, long runs of NC, but one message from her sends me back to square one, missing, loving  her and trying to fix our relationship.

My scientific, rational mind is failing me here. It cant make sense of what she does and thinks, and it cant defeat my emotions.

I feel trapped in a house of mirrors. 

[OKrunch]

While i know full well i cannot change her, help her fix anything, or make her see what i see...

I know I can be the supporting, loving, understanding, patient PARTNER she needs.

Keyword there: Partner. Not anything more, or less. 

[OKrunch]

I suck at this game. Caved on no contact AGAIN today. Nothing huge, just told her i was free this weekend, and that i hoped work went well. No reply, unsurprisingly.

I have changed her name in my phone as a last resort reminder for me to NOT FREAKIN TEXT HER.

Feeling very weak right now.

[kells76]

I suck at this game. Caved on no contact AGAIN today. Nothing huge, just told her i was free this weekend, and that i hoped work went well. No reply, unsurprisingly.

I have changed her name in my phone as a last resort reminder for me to NOT FREAKIN TEXT HER.

Feeling very weak right now.

Hey OKrunch, that sounds like something a lot of members have gone through -- one way of describing it might be a "relapse". Relapses can be a normal part of the nonlinear "recovery" process. Maybe it's highlighting for you that you're working through the disconnect between what you intellectually want and what you emotionally want?

If I'm tracking with you, you are ready to be done with the relationship and detach. Is that close?

If so, I'd be happy to transfer your thread to our Detaching and Learning... board -- lots of good, supportive discussion there about reducing contact with a former relationship partner.

What do you think?

[OKrunch]

Kells76. Honestly. No. I'm not.

She's in therapy and seems to be having some improvement from what I can tell from a distance.
Furthermore, I knew she had mental health issues throughout our whole relationship, including reconciling the first time, and then getting engaged.
She is pretty high functioning. Very independent and self reliant. driven and professional.
However her trauma past is pretty grueling also. She suffers from nightmares, poor sleep patterns, anxiety and so on.
The BPD/CPTSD tendencies can certainly be strong when she "spirals" as she puts it.
These "Spirals" are usually short episodes, an hour or two, but they wipe her out for the day. She often sleeps after them.
Then there are the "long episodes" as i have come to call them. I have not ever discussed these with her.
They are outlined pretty well in my original post, but she seems to suffer particularly more from anxiety and depression from like, Early Sept through like, April/May. I have been discarded twice during this same time.
I have also been with her during this time of the year, twice.
During our first year together I really didn't notice it. We met in October, but she was stressed around the holidays from work and through the winter. I was just getting to really know her then. Then we moved in together during the start of Covid. I chalked all the stress and anxiety up to that our first year together. Unprecedented times right?
Our first vacation together in June of that year and through the rest of the summer was great.
Her grandmother who basically raised her, passed away in Sept of 2020. Shortly thereafter we broke up the first time. So again, I wasn't able to see the pattern yet. That was also a pretty unprecedented event.
Then I found out about the Rebound fellow.
this killed me, and I didn't talk to her for months (end of 202 into beginning of 2021).
Around February we began chatting, and it was a back and forth thing, with us chatting or even flirting, and then she would get angry and back off because she was with someone. I always told her I "didn't see him as a threat". I could tell it was a temporary thing. This is when i began really figuring our the possibility of BPD.
Her Devalue/Discard/Dumping whatever you want to call it, happened a bit earlier in the year than seems to be her pattern.

During the times when she isn't having an episode or a "Spiral", she is too damn wonderful for me to forget about and move on from right now. I did not idlily ask her to marry me. I've been divorced once and it was terrible. I swore off ever getting married again. Knowing her changed that. Knowing her daughter changed that. Seeing how our kids were together changed that.


I love her way too much, at least now. Maybe with distance that might change, but it didn't in 9 months of separation before.

That being said, I am also not going back to the same relationship.
We both have things to work on and improve before we can really do any forward movement.
I'm just afraid she will get into another relationship out of loneliness.
However if we do ever discuss reconciliation again, I will have some boundaries.
We cannot live together for a while. like, at least a year, or two.
If we ever do, we cannot live in a situation where her having an episode can render me homeless and send my kid off to be with his mother all the time.
There will be therapy, single and couples. Guidelines and coping mechanisms. Agreements on the taking of space within the house, about not yelling (this is my vice honestly), etc.
Lastly, I do fully understand the possibilities, ramifications and responsibilities that would come with a 2nd reconciliation.
Which is why, despite how much i know i want her back, it would have to be a carefully planned thing, and I understand how much of a likelyhood of failure there is there. 

When i messaged her last night she replied with "You had said we should only talk if its regarding important matters, and I agree. I have not blocked you, but I'm trying not to engage. I'm sorry. I hope you have a good night."

Today i messaged again after her saying that, which i mention in my previous post.

I try to stay focused on the issues i need to deal with immediately, namely my living situation. Its too damn hard to keep everything out of my head. i overthink, then i tailspin and end up reaching out.

I was doing SO MUCH better than this in Oct and Early Nov, before she reached out and we had to discuss the whole pregnancy thing.

No contact works to give her the time to calm. Ive seen it before.
it makes me act less emotionally also

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   It sounds like you are having a really rough time with this.

   Might I suggest to see your Therapist, and work out these emotions that you are having.

SD

[Rev]

OKrunch,

   It sounds like you are having a really rough time with this.

   Might I suggest to see your Therapist, and work out these emotions that you are having.

SD

Good observation.

If it's okay I'd like to point out that much of whatbIm reading here seems to have the dynamic of you trying to adapt to her needs and her patterns - which is of course necessary if you want to.gave a relationship.

And I haven't heard yet what you need from her for you? What would it mean for you to share with us the following:


If you hand a magic wand - how would she treat you in this relationship and what needs or yours would now be met?

What do you think?

Rev

[OKrunch]

thanks for the concern folks, I am seeing my therapist, in fact we increased it to 2x per week for the time being.

If i had a magic wand and she treated me how I need to be treated it would look like this.

Direct communication regarding household things, not passive aggression

Her acknowledging and apologizing for the difficulty caused by having me need to move out immediately at her whim as opposed to the fact that I was on the lease and could have legally stayed, how much of a burden this has put on me and my son. Twice, simply to satisfy her impulsive need for isolation when in an episode.

Open, civil, and non-confrontational communication, mediated if need be, to establish a relationship baseline of communication methods.

An understanding that we both have different attachment styles, and love languages, and knowing what those things mean for each others needs.

No double standards (If she yells, its due to a trigger and is thereby forgivable, if I do it I AM the trigger and that = BADMAN)

regular, consistent therapy both couples and individual.

Lastly, for her to understand that I am not here to do anything but love and support her, and that if sometimes that becomes a lot for me to handle, all i need is a day's worth of time out. I will wake the next day the same as I ever was.

for her to believe and know with ever fiber of her being that I am not going to abandon her, and that my love is quite genuine.
As opposed to what her mind thinks is the norm.

[OKrunch]

And yes, Salty, the last few days have been particularly hard.
This is the result of the push pull. She's pulling away, and it sucks.

The Mountain does not chase The Wind.

I have been perusing, and trying to have romantic conversations disguised as platonic ones.
I need to go back to what I know works, and that is Time and Space.

These responses are born of fear, that she will meet someone and begin dating.
Reminders:

1.) I have zero control over any of this, beyond my own response or lackthereof.
2.) I have seen in the past that stepping away works, and yet I still doubt and fear it.
3.) I have no control over if she meets someone, and what transpires if she does.
4.) neediness is not attractive.
5.) Inability to give space is not attractive.
6.) SHE walked away from this (twice), she needs to be the one to walk back.
7.) I am attractive, accomplished and desirable. This will not be the thing that kills me.
8.) I know i did the best I could at the time, and Im learning through therapy to be better. For myself, for my son. Potentially for her, or whomever I am lucky enough to love next.

Guard is back up, I WILL NOT reach out again (because this is what I have seen work)
letting time, space, and the end of her "episode" work themselves out naturally.

[Rev]

thanks for the concern folks, I am seeing my therapist, in fact we increased it to 2x per week for the time being.

If i had a magic wand and she treated me how I need to be treated it would look like this.

Direct communication regarding household things, not passive aggression

Her acknowledging and apologizing for the difficulty caused by having me need to move out immediately at her whim as opposed to the fact that I was on the lease and could have legally stayed, how much of a burden this has put on me and my son. Twice, simply to satisfy her impulsive need for isolation when in an episode.

Open, civil, and non-confrontational communication, mediated if need be, to establish a relationship baseline of communication methods.

An understanding that we both have different attachment styles, and love languages, and knowing what those things mean for each others needs.

No double standards (If she yells, its due to a trigger and is thereby forgivable, if I do it I AM the trigger and that = BADMAN)

regular, consistent therapy both couples and individual.

Lastly, for her to understand that I am not here to do anything but love and support her, and that if sometimes that becomes a lot for me to handle, all i need is a day's worth of time out. I will wake the next day the same as I ever was.

for her to believe and know with ever fiber of her being that I am not going to abandon her, and that my love is quite genuine.
As opposed to what her mind thinks is the norm.

What a great list - and what you have just experienced is a reframe - part of CBT and something that is so necessary in having a relationship with anyone in stressful times.   By broadening the picture, you allow your presence to take its place in the story. While it doesn't solve the core issue of the dynamic that you are trying to resolve, it does help you not lose yourself in the process. Do you know the analogy of saving a drowning person and making sure that both of you don't go down - so you need to put on your own life vest first and so on?   This list is like a life vest. I would encourage to massage it a remove any reference to her at all in it. This is not to say that you are cutting her out of your life. It is to say that you are going to spend so quality time togother ... with ... YOU. Yes ... the man who is trying to work on the relationship is going to spend some time with the man who made the list. You TWO will "talk" to each other.  Make sense.  It will help with all of the emotional turbulence you seem to be dealing with.

Keep it up. You are doing awesome.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[SaltyDawg]

Keep your guard up.

Keep your head up too. 

Practice self-care.  I find when I am near the bottom of my emotional mess, self-care, no matter what that might look like to you, is of paramount importance.

If you are looking for a video support group that deals with BPD, I found a free one and you can attend, I did my first one yesterday.  It is structured for the 1st 1.5 hours, and then open chat after that.

Information can be found here:  https://groups.io/g/MovingForward

[OKrunch]

Thank you both for your continued support.

The end of last week we obviously quite hard. I was fool enough to chase.
After learning some very damning information, and being coldly ignored for days, it has caused a dramatic shift in my mindset.
My best friend told me she had been messaging him and he said "i definitely got a solid vibe she was being pretty flirty and seemed very interested. If I had asked to hang out she would have certainly said yes."
So if she's willing to hit on my best friend. Yea. that's where I draw the line.


I am confident in myself, my housing prospects are hopefully looking up and this will not kill me.
I will be doing my own thing, and I vow, no more chasing or false hope.

As far as I'm concerned, she deliberately left the one person who has ever taken time to understand who she is and what she struggles with. So why should I be the one to be asking to hang out? She left, she can come back. Otherwise, this is totally quittsville.

Thanks again,

Sincerely,
An Invigorated Orange,

[SaltyDawg]

That's pretty messed up with her hitting on your BF.

You see her true colors, and are willing to take definitive action as you are becoming more self-confident.

In your recovery, be sure to seek out some kind of therapy, as bottling up all this negative emotion is not healthy.  Also do self-care.

Take care.

[Rev]

Hey OKrunch - what a great thread. I brings me back to the dynamics I experienced. Ultimately, I had to leave because she was abusive and bankrupting us.

For what its worth here are my answers to your questions:

1. Whats up with the constant Maybe's? she did this a bit during 2021 also, but i had assumed this was because of rebound guy. People with mood disordered live is a disordered way. Pretty much everything happens in the moment. pwBPD live in a world of feelings based facts. The "maybe" likely comes out of emotional dysregulation and turbulence in the moment - which causes fear - and then a feeling of "I hate you - don't leave me" (also the title of a good book) - AND - so out of fear comes a "maybe".

2.  I am working with MY therapist to figure out why i cannot let go of this. But man its hard. Why do i love someone who hurts me? when she is not dysregulated she is the most caring, kind, driven and intelligent woman ever.  How is that going?  My T and coach got me to focus on where my limits were - as in what was my bottom line and then to find the fortitude to stick to it, even if I wasn't feeling it emotionally in the moment if I was having a down day. From there, I have come up with the mantra that to answer the question you are asking (which we are all asking ourselves here) you need to give your body time to catch up to your mind. There's a great book out there on adult relationships called "Attached".  Highly recommended.

3. Since we BEGAN to have an understanding of her trauma, needs and triggers, i really feel like we can overcome this. But i may just be hopeful. Hard for me to answer this, but my thoughts are that until she remains regulated for a significant amount of time then this is just temporary - see your next question.

4. The cyclical nature and rerepeated patterns of the BPD fascinate me, has anyone else seen these types of consistent patterns?  Yes - this is typical. Often pwBPD will dysregulate close to family holidays as well.

As far as your text, I agree that there is an implicit ultimatum which rarely works well - communication strategy needs to be about minimizing emotional escalation and giving your partner to literally calm down.  Think of this as not giving a child who over tired and crank more candy rather than putting on soothing music and giving them some space in a comfortable spot for them with some coloring books or lego to play with.

We have an expression here :  Don't J.A.D.E.  

Don't  JUSTIFY
Don''t  ARGUE
Don't  DEFEND
Don't   EXPLAIN.

So, if you were to rewrite your text with only factual information, leaving any of your own emotions out of your words, leaving out any expectations you might have, etc, and do that in six sentences or less, what might you write.

Thanks for this.

Again,

Great thread.

Rev

How's it going with your 2nd question from the above exchange we had a while back?

Rev.

[OKrunch]

Doing both.

It was never directly confirmed she would, but even the possibility of it is appalling to me.

Therapy tomorrow and Thursday.
Hopefully hearing good news about the apartment I looked at.


Rev - Work with therapist is going well. She is compassionate to my refusal to completely abandon hope, but she is also blunt and realistic when it comes to what I should and shouldn't tolerate in a relationship. I look forward to discussing the weekend with her tomorrow. I stand much where I did. She pushed me away, and here is where I shall remain until such time as she comes and finds me there (or doesn't).
If and when that happens, I will cordial and kind, but I will not surrender my boundaries.
Here is the main revelation I had over the weekend.
"She never FULLY chose you" - (Something my sister in law said that has resonated)
The only time I believe she was fully invested in the relationship was in the beginning, when I was still moving towards being in love. My past experiences caused me to be cautious at the outset of a relationship. So when she was fully invested in idolization, I was a bit aloof.
Once I had fully invested in the relationship and said I was in love, it feels like that was the very slow beginning of the decline (1st decline).
Since that time, she has always held something, defensively, in reserve.
In order to have a fully functional relationship, we both need to CHOOSE eachother. At the same time, and for all time.
My brother and SIL certainly have their ups and downs like any marriage, but as she put it "no matter what happens, at the end of the day we always choose eachother"

Well right now, I'm choosing my son, and myself.
If she ever decides to choose someone other than herself, she knows where to find me.
Until then, I readhere to and, stick to my mantra.

"The Mountain Doesn't Chase The Wind"

[Rev]

Doing both.

It was never directly confirmed she would, but even the possibility of it is appalling to me.

Therapy tomorrow and Thursday.
Hopefully hearing good news about the apartment I looked at.


Rev - Work with therapist is going well. She is compassionate to my refusal to completely abandon hope, but she is also blunt and realistic when it comes to what I should and shouldn't tolerate in a relationship. I look forward to discussing the weekend with her tomorrow. I stand much where I did. She pushed me away, and here is where I shall remain until such time as she comes and finds me there (or doesn't).
If and when that happens, I will cordial and kind, but I will not surrender my boundaries.
Here is the main revelation I had over the weekend.
"She never FULLY chose you" - (Something my sister in law said that has resonated)
The only time I believe she was fully invested in the relationship was in the beginning, when I was still moving towards being in love. My past experiences caused me to be cautious at the outset of a relationship. So when she was fully invested in idolization, I was a bit aloof.
Once I had fully invested in the relationship and said I was in love, it feels like that was the very slow beginning of the decline (1st decline).
Since that time, she has always held something, defensively, in reserve.
In order to have a fully functional relationship, we both need to CHOOSE eachother. At the same time, and for all time.
My brother and SIL certainly have their ups and downs like any marriage, but as she put it "no matter what happens, at the end of the day we always choose eachother"

Well right now, I'm choosing my son, and myself.
If she ever decides to choose someone other than herself, she knows where to find me.
Until then, I readhere to and, stick to my mantra.

"The Mountain Doesn't Chase The Wind"

Your therapist sounds very cool - engaged, holding you to account for what you say, not being overly directive. After all, it's not her life to live. Her job is to make sure that you are sure you're living the life you want to live, given what is real rather than what is wishful thinking.

And about choosing - Can't remember where I heard this - but it's an image about pwBPD and their inability to choose.

In the love bombing phase, there's a moment, however brief, that they actually DO CHOOSE. And because you are seeking a secure attachment, when things go wonky, it's natural to return to that moment and start again. Just like you SIL and brother do.  The choose each other over and over, based on the first choice they made.

With people who are mood disordered, that moment of first choice is not anchored in time quite the same way. And once that door closes, they are less able to go back. The deeper the condition, the more difficult it is to go back.

The mountain didn't chase after the wind. You are on a good path, even if the path will have its bumps and challenges. Eventually who she is capable of being and what you need/want for yourself will become clear enough that the choice you want to make will become self-evident.

You ... are ... doing ... awesome. And one day, you will pay this forward.

Rev

[OKrunch]

Thanks Rev.

Being "homeless" is making this much harder.
I thought I was going to get that apartment, and I didn't.
Every time i have a setback with the housing situation, it just brings all my anger about having been kicked out AGAIN so callously. We had even discussed cohabitation before she kicked me out because the relationship was "failing" again.
Looking back I can see how so many of the fights were needless or manufactured. This helped drive home her narrative that she needed to get me away ASAP.

Question for the Masses: I have spent 2 months chasing off and on, and it has obviously yielded nothing fruitful. I should have known this from last time, but emotions > Logic in times like these.
My question is this.

Is the slow growing sense of "abandonment" from an ex NOT reaching out what causes them to cycle back?
They begin to perceive that you aren't chasing, and thereby must have found better things.

I can't help but look at patterns, and the longest we've ever gone without speaking was 6 weeks. She was the one who broke contact then. Recently, before she messaged me about the pregnancy thing, we hadn't spoken for about 2.5 weeks.

I shouldn't hope for results with no contact, I get that. However I do need to know what to expect, and when.
I feel like she was "testing the waters" with my friend, because she is lonely, in the past she has always rebounded, and doesn't seem to be doing so this time, so although I don't agree with or accept that particular piece of impulsivity, I do understand it.
My thoughts are that no contact my have some results a bit faster as she is still alone (as far as I know, totally possible shes seeing someone)

Still trying to corral all my invasive thoughts and sort out which ones are constructive and which are harmfully obsessive.

I may have given up hope on anything right now, but knowing what I do about fear of abandonment, I will never truly abandon her. She knows this, so I dont need to keep reminding her.

Off to look for more housing :/

[Rev]

Is the slow growing sense of "abandonment" from an ex NOT reaching out what causes them to cycle back?
They begin to perceive that you aren't chasing, and thereby must have found better things?

Good question - and there's no set answer.  One thing that is for sure - whatever reason they would reach out to us is motivated by a need in the moment - and one that may just as soon disappear mere hours later. All depends on the person. All depends on the situation, all depends...

I hear you on the "homeless".  I couch surfed for weeks - and I really am not sure what I would have done otherwise.

Put your head down. Do what you need to do.  Hang in there.

Rev

[OKrunch]

I just can't seem to get the potential patterns out of my head (as outlined in my first post)
Just useless persistent thoughts like, "it took 7 months before we started coming together again, 9 until i moved back in, so I should be hearing from her starting in march or april"
or other such time based examples of patterns she has exhibited before.
She usually dysregulates and devalues in Late summer / Fall.
Likelihood of rebound, blah blah blah.

I can't get them out of my damn, head, as much as I am activley trying.
If something pops into my head i try to distract myself with tasks at work, etc.

Maybe its just the addiction brain chemicals. Last contact we had was Friday when she basically told me "i wont be responding, im sorry bye"

From kick out in late Sept through most of Oct, I was in no contact and was not having these problems as bad.
Ever since we had to talk about the pregnancy thing, it kicked me back to square one of detachment recovery.

Just ranting / venting.

I also can't help but keep thinking that the way she turned my "boundary" back on me is a manipulation tactic, or is she really just trying to have healthy distance to heal.

I sure wish i could put my brain on sleep mode sometimes.

[SaltyDawg]

Okrunch,

   Is sounds like that you are obsessing.  You cannot control what she does, you can only control what you do.

   If I tell you to forget her, you won't.  No more if I tell you to forget about the pink elephant that I am about to tell you to forget it as well.  You can't forget, so forget about forgetting -- it doesn't work for me, and probably not you either.

   However, you can take positive action for yourself.  I find that distraction works really well for me.  I personally would get lost in a good movie, TV series, or even a good book.

   Do self-care.  Whatever that may look like for you.  You did mention becoming 'homeless' is this figuratively, or is this literally too as the the apartment you were looking at fell through?

   If it is literally, your first priority is to get a roof over your head, and a warm bed to sleep in, as they say "Winter is Coming"... especially as you have a child to take care of.

[OKrunch]

Salty,

I am obsessing, thats the problem. Im aware of it and seeking remedies.

Distraction and self care have been things im doing. Reinvesting in hobbies, looking for housing, spending time with friends. These things all help, but do not completely make this go away.

My son is fine, he has been staying with his mother. Im currently staying in a camper on my work property.

Its my "scientific" mind, that will not relent on trying to find patterns, to project future patterns, predict, understand etc.

There is a common theme of "you cannot understand or predict what they will do" and while that is technically true of any human, there is plenty of documented evidence of cyclical habits and repeated patterns.
I even read a scholarly article discussing the comorbidity of Seasonal Depression and BPD.

I'm a fixer, a saver (previous Firefighter and EMT), and a problem solver by nature. This relationship dynamic offers a particularly challenging set of criteria for me to try and understand, even when I try to tell myself there isn't anything to understand.
Furthermore, having seen some of these patterns play out consistently, and knowing I am typically in "favorite person" status, causes me to have a craving to know, and to try and understand these patterns.

I have likened this to a woman who is married to a soldier. She chooses to undertake some of the burdens loving someone with PTSD can present. I have had several family and friends basically tell me
"Dude, just get over it, put it behind you and move on"
Despite how many times i explain, that this completely goes against my nature, nobody seems to listen.
I understand their statement is made out of compassion for me and a desire to not see me suffer, but it doesn't change what's truly in my heart. I am choosing this, just like I chose it the first time, and the first reconciliation.

I know i will continue to try to understand, and it is getting easier with time, but boy can my monkey mind get awfully chatty when its quiet at work or when I'm trying to go to bed.

really thought I wouldn't still be waking up immediately with anger and anxiety still, 3 months later. But here we are!

[Rev]

really thought I wouldn't still be waking up immediately with anger and anxiety still, 3 months later. But here we are!

This right here - let go of this. There is no one-size-fits-all timeframe. It will just take the time you take. In fact, the more you obsess about how much time it's taking, the time goes up like compounded interest.  Salty is right - do what it takes to ride this out ...  this is detox. Eventually, you will start to shift from obsessing about her, to obsessing about you. It will still be obsessing, but at least directed at working on moving towards a life you want for yourself. And then eventually that subsides.

Hang in there and continue venting.  I found it really helped in the first ... wait for it ... 12 months.

Rev

[SaltyDawg]

I am obsessing, thats the problem. Im aware of it and seeking remedies.
I get it, I am the same way.  I figured out a way to get my uBPDw to come to the self-realization that she may be a borderline.  It is a partial success [this is the exception, not the norm] but at a substantial emotional cost.

Distraction and self care have been things im doing. Reinvesting in hobbies, looking for housing, spending time with friends. These things all help, but do not completely make this go away.
Understood, keep doing this, it will be helpful.  I would also suggest exercising too.  Do stuff for you, to make yourself better.

My son is fine, he has been staying with his mother. Im currently staying in a camper on my work property.
Good - I hope the camper is warm enough for you.  At least you are saving a few bucks in rent - there is always a good side, you just may have to look for it.

Its my "scientific" mind, that will not relent on trying to find patterns, to project future patterns, predict, understand etc.
Me too, I get it.  However, don't read too much into it.  Being borderline is illogical, it won't make too much sense. 

I'm a fixer, a saver (previous Firefighter and EMT), and a problem solver by nature. This relationship dynamic offers a particularly challenging set of criteria for me to try and understand, even when I try to tell myself there isn't anything to understand.
Furthermore, having seen some of these patterns play out consistently, and knowing I am typically in "favorite person" status, causes me to have a craving to know, and to try and understand these patterns.
Me too, I am a trained advanced marine firefighter/on-scene commander, and I am also a USCG certified medical person in charge [MPIC], roughly equivalent to the station chief and an AEMT.  I get it.  Trying to logically understand the illogical and why it is illogical is not an easy task.  Favorite person status does change, and it can change, and you can influence that change too. 

I have likened this to a woman who is married to a soldier. She chooses to undertake some of the burdens loving someone with PTSD can present. I have had several family and friends basically tell me
"Dude, just get over it, put it behind you and move on"
Despite how many times i explain, that this completely goes against my nature, nobody seems to listen.
I understand their statement is made out of compassion for me and a desire to not see me suffer, but it doesn't change what's truly in my heart. I am choosing this, just like I chose it the first time, and the first reconciliation.

That is the crux of the problem.  You are a trained rescuer, and a trained fixer -- it is who you are.  Please use the DBT skill of wise mind in this matter https://dbtselfhelp.com/dbt-skills-list/mindfulness/wise-mind/ and do what is best for you.  However, do keep in mind the consequences of your actions and/or inactions.  Plan for all possible outcomes, and choose the best one for your son, and yourself.  Please consider the words of your friends, especially as your actions do not impact yourself, but that of your son too. 

Now I am going to use a firefighter analogy.  If the building/room [relationship] you are fighting, you see the smoke of the room door breathing in and out and it is starved for oxygen [attention] and you are shut out like you are now -- this is a pattern not too dissimilar of the borderline mind when it is inflamed.  What will happen when you open the door to this room [relationship] to engage the fire and fresh air is re-introduced?  A backdraft/flashover will usually occur - you get an adrenaline rush from the flames/explosion [push/pull dynamic] with a substantial risk of injury to yourself.  Also, consider what will happen if you leave the room door closed and cool the perimeter?  [boring, but safer (relative term), the fire burns itself out] - either way there is major damage to the room [relationship] - is this room worth saving and fixing?  If you decide to fix it, you will have to change everything, yourself included to make this work.

I know i will continue to try to understand, and it is getting easier with time, but boy can my monkey mind get awfully chatty when its quiet at work or when I'm trying to go to bed.

really thought I wouldn't still be waking up immediately with anger and anxiety still, 3 months later. But here we are!

See a practitioner and get some meds to help you sleep [if your job allows it], if not, drink milk [or other sleep inducing food such as dark meat poultry].  Use the supplement melatonin can also be helpful. 

[OKrunch]

Now I am going to use a firefighter analogy.  If the building/room [relationship] you are fighting, you see the smoke of the room door breathing in and out and it is starved for oxygen [attention] and you are shut out like you are now -- this is a pattern not too dissimilar of the borderline mind when it is inflamed.  What will happen when you open the door to this room [relationship] to engage the fire and fresh air is re-introduced?  A backdraft/flashover will usually occur - you get an adrenaline rush from the flames/explosion [push/pull dynamic] with a substantial risk of injury to yourself.  Also, consider what will happen if you leave the room door closed and cool the perimeter?  [boring, but safer (relative term), the fire burns itself out] - either way there is major damage to the room [relationship] - is this room worth saving and fixing?  If you decide to fix it, you will have to change everything, yourself included to make this work.

Very interesting take on the situation. I can always appreciate a good backdraft analogy haha.
I guess here is my devils advocate reframe.
There is a victim in that burning room, and I, am sitting in the burning, adjacent room with a charged line.
Time for risk benefit analysis.
Will my patient self extricate using window egress? I have no radio comm's from command outside to know if they have or not.
I completely understand the changes WE would need to make to make this work, I am willing to at least entertain and explore them.
But, it takes 2, and she needs to want that too.
__________________________________________________________

In an ironic twist, she JUST texted me as I was typing this.

"I received the package you sent. I will get your Christmas stuff to you soon. Im just going through the rest of it to make sure i get it all"

Im not sure if i mentioned it in previous posts. But i recently mailed her a tee shirt of hers i found in my laundry (that i suspect she put there on purpose. it was unusually fragrant of her...suspicous) and the engagement ring i had used in June to propose (She had put it in my belongings, and I found it when i was going through my stuff after i moved out)

I mailed the ring back because it was something i gave to her. If she doesn't want it, she can discard, sell or give it away. (it is NOT expensive, Opal, not Diamond) I firmly believe it was given back to me so i had a sentimental item to obsess over.

I have not responded. Any advice?
My plan currently is to simply reply "Ok, thanks"

[SaltyDawg]

For the backdraft scenario, if the room is breathing the smoke in/out around the door frame and the rest is pretty much sealed, the O2 levels in the room are around 10% or less, less than what consciousness life can typically support - self-extrication is impossible.  Also, the temperatures are already excessive throughout all levels of the room except perhaps the bottom 6 inches, again too hot to allow for life except and the fire has fully engulfed the room already in its more advanced stage [recovery is possible in earlier stages], and all usable O2 has been consumed by the flames and is looking for more.  It is typically a body recovery scenario at this point.  I would never send in a team without proper working comms.  Now if it was a room which the boundaries were already compromised, that would be a different backdraft scenario.

Regarding the engagement ring, they are typically returned to the person who gave it when the engagement ends.  Sending it back to her, is signaling to her that you still want her.

With regards to the return text, just stick with your plan or a simple "thank you" should do, and nothing more.

[OKrunch]

For the backdraft scenario, if the room is breathing the smoke in/out around the door frame and the rest is pretty much sealed, the O2 levels in the room are around 10% or less, less than what consciousness life can typically support - self-extrication is impossible.  Also, the temperatures are already excessive throughout all levels of the room except perhaps the bottom 6 inches, again too hot to allow for life except and the fire has fully engulfed the room already in its more advanced stage [recovery is possible in earlier stages], and all usable O2 has been consumed by the flames and is looking for more.  It is typically a body recovery scenario at this point.  I would never send in a team without proper working comms.  Now if it was a room which the boundaries were already compromised, that would be a different backdraft scenario.

Regarding the engagement ring, they are typically returned to the person who gave it when the engagement ends.  Sending it back to her, is signaling to her that you still want her.

With regards to the return text, just stick with your plan or a simple "thank you" should do, and nothing more.

Salty,

Loving the backdraft scenario.
Valid points Cap. Message recieved.
Untenable conditions noted. Moving outside for defensive ops.

Regarding the ring. I was only looking to say "this is yours, here it is back"

Thats pretty much what i had planned on a reply. thanks for the confirm.

[OKrunch]

The ring she "lost" 3 weeks after engagements, and we all looked all over the house for a month. couldn't find it. "Found" it the week she kicked me out. Coincidence? i doubt it.

[Rev]

The ring she "lost" 3 weeks after engagements, and we all looked all over the house for a month. couldn't find it. "Found" it the week she kicked me out. Coincidence? i doubt it.

No coincidence there. In fact, "possessions" play a big part of BPD behavior. My ex did the same. Hid stuff on me as I was moving, only to have "found" them later.   

 

[OKrunch]

No coincidence there. In fact, "possessions" play a big part of BPD behavior. My ex did the same. Hid stuff on me as I was moving, only to have "found" them later.   

 

Same reason I believe that one single shirt ended up in my clothes that I took when I moved out. That she packed.

her text today was kind of odd, seemingly benign. but the flat way she said "I got your package" and then moved on to something unrelated was strange.  Maybe im just looking for signs where they arent.

[Rev]

Maybe im just looking for signs where they arent.

pwBPD live in a world of "feelings based facts" - there are no "signs" per se - there are patterns of over-arching cycles (like my ex has about a two-year limit before things fall off the rails.)  But in the moment, there is no coherence - which is why (haha) they call it a disorder.

More than likely, the "sign" you are looking for is a somatic response you are having that is looking for an answer or affirmation of some kind. Once your body catches up to your mind, you will see her patterns more clearly and be less hooked by "signs".

Hang in there.

Things appear to be clearing up - even if it's hard and it may not feel like it, you are moving in the right direction. At this stage, this really is about YOU.  And ... YOU are doing great.

Rev

[OKrunch]

Rev - It definitely feels like its getting lesser. If i could get my living situation squared away things would be much easier. I'd have much more to focus on and distract myself with. Ill find something.

Christmas was a big deal in our house, her Daughter and my Son would both get pretty obsessed. Nearing that day is getting harder, and I miss my dogs so damn much.

I'm worrying that I made A mistake in sending the tee shirt and ring back.
I keep going over whether or not doing so pissed her off, or made her feel anything, or she didn't give a crap.

At the end of the day, I sent them back because I didn't want them in my presence, and they were artifacts of a happier time that was dousing the embers of my healing process. So they had to go.

[OKrunch]

Control has been the topic of the week with therapy.

I cannot control anyone's actions or reactions. Only my own. I cannot seek to mentally or spiritually coerce any actions or inaction. What will be will be.


I am confident that, despite the issues I brought to the relationship, I was improving and I was bearing a lot of her daily emotional burden. A burden I very much wish she did not need to carry.  Anger management is going very well. I understand a lot more of my root causes than I did 2 months ago.


These things, aren't, my fault. I was merely the person closest, thereby the easiest blamed and and reflected upon.

Her trauma is not her fault, but nor is it mine. Nor is it mine to fix. I can only balm it, and calm it, but she has to want that.

I have made choices. There are choices I've made about what I cannot tolerate in the future, with her or anyone else.
I have chosen to be there for her should she ever seek it, I am learning more and more about trauma responses, CPTSD/BPD, abandonment issues, and fear of commitment.
I WILL be there for her, but only if she comes to find me. I will not be in the same spot she left me, but higher up the trail, more fit, mentally sound and stoic.

I will not walk further DOWN the trail to meet her, for she has her own climbing to do.
I cannot help her clear the treeline into the alpine zone, but boy will I be happy to share the summit view with her if she does.

I know I love her, and the love of a whole family has magic superpowers in my opinion. I believe that the knowledge of communicative, open, therapy assisted family life is the best chance for her to live a normal live. to know, without a doubt, that she will always have someone in her corner. She has to find this book and learn this knowledge. I cannot teach or show her.

Each day without her is painful. She is my muse, my motivation and desire. Or at least she was, and could be again. I know the magnitude of the love I offer.

Apartment hunting is beyond frustrating. The rates and requirements are insane right now.
I have resolved to keep my head down, stick it out in the camper and hoard money like a miser.

I have set a goal of April first to have saved a 6% down payment (3.5 is the requirement for FHA loan around here), and I want to be in the process of purchasing by my birthday in Mid July.

My door will be open to her, but my boundaries will not be.

They say "If you love them, let them go, if they return its meant to be"
Well, that already happened once.
They also say, "Third time's the charm" and I guess we might test that one someday, or maybe not.
Regardless of what the end of the story ends up being, my love will never go away. It my get put in a dusty box, and it may never be opened again, But it will always be there.
ALWAYS.

I will close this post with one of my favorite quotes, from one of my favorite bands.

"Proudly it stands
Until the world's end
The victorious banner of love"
~ "The Maiden and the Minstrel Knight" by Blind Guardian

[Rev]

Control has been the topic of the week with therapy.

I cannot control anyone's actions or reactions. Only my own. I cannot seek to mentally or spiritually coerce any actions or inaction. What will be will be.


I am confident that, despite the issues I brought to the relationship, I was improving and I was bearing a lot of her daily emotional burden. A burden I very much wish she did not need to carry.  Anger management is going very well. I understand a lot more of my root causes than I did 2 months ago.


These things, aren't, my fault. I was merely the person closest, thereby the easiest blamed and and reflected upon.

Her trauma is not her fault, but nor is it mine. Nor is it mine to fix. I can only balm it, and calm it, but she has to want that.

I have made choices. There are choices I've made about what I cannot tolerate in the future, with her or anyone else.
I have chosen to be there for her should she ever seek it, I am learning more and more about trauma responses, CPTSD/BPD, abandonment issues, and fear of commitment.
I WILL be there for her, but only if she comes to find me. I will not be in the same spot she left me, but higher up the trail, more fit, mentally sound and stoic.

I will not walk further DOWN the trail to meet her, for she has her own climbing to do.
I cannot help her clear the treeline into the alpine zone, but boy will I be happy to share the summit view with her if she does.

I know I love her, and the love of a whole family has magic superpowers in my opinion. I believe that the knowledge of communicative, open, therapy assisted family life is the best chance for her to live a normal live. to know, without a doubt, that she will always have someone in her corner. She has to find this book and learn this knowledge. I cannot teach or show her.

Each day without her is painful. She is my muse, my motivation and desire. Or at least she was, and could be again. I know the magnitude of the love I offer.

Apartment hunting is beyond frustrating. The rates and requirements are insane right now.
I have resolved to keep my head down, stick it out in the camper and hoard money like a miser.

I have set a goal of April first to have saved a 6% down payment (3.5 is the requirement for FHA loan around here), and I want to be in the process of purchasing by my birthday in Mid July.

My door will be open to her, but my boundaries will not be.

They say "If you love them, let them go, if they return its meant to be"
Well, that already happened once.
They also say, "Third time's the charm" and I guess we might test that one someday, or maybe not.
Regardless of what the end of the story ends up being, my love will never go away. It my get put in a dusty box, and it may never be opened again, But it will always be there.
ALWAYS.

I will close this post with one of my favorite quotes, from one of my favorite bands.

"Proudly it stands
Until the world's end
The victorious banner of love"
~ "The Maiden and the Minstrel Knight" by Blind Guardian

Hey Crunch,

Just wanting you to know I read this. Hang in there.

One day at a time, you do you, and all that other stuff...

Reach out any time.

Rev

[OKrunch]

Thanks Rev, I'm doing better.

Then sun sets the same on an overcast days as it does on bright ones, despite what we can't see. It rises just as gorgeous in the morning. Spring always follows Winter.

The universe is cyclical. Life is cyclical.

The Great Magnet rolls ever onward.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

I too am reading; however, I may not comment on everything, especially if others have already said it. 

You are in my thoughts.  Hang in there, and it sounds like you have a good housing plan. 

Take Care.

[cranmango]

I'm reading, too. Much of your situation resonates with me, with strong similarities to my own. And your words today describing acceptance and growth really resonate with me.

Hang in there. Keep moving forward.

[OKrunch]

Maintaining good attitude and trying to concrete new habits.

1. Getting back on the wagon with quitting smoking. I had quite for about a month right before the breakup. Time to set that back to rights.
2. I am confident the housing situation is going to settle around here. It just requires waiting, and letting winter take its effect on the market.
3. I am going to be time blocking my days. This will prevent me from long periods of overthinking and ruminating.
4. Part of the time blocking will include excercise. Which i hate doing, but I've known its something I need to train myself to be habitual about for some time.
5. Read more. Fiction, Non-Fiction. whatever. Just read real books.
6. Improve diet, shift from easy, quick unhealthy crap, to pre-planned, healthy not-crap.
7. Wait, like a hungry leopard, and pounce upon the juicy Tapir of opportunity when it presents itself and BUY AND DARN HOUSE.

This is my action plan, as devised during 4.5 hours of driving this weekend.
----------------------------------------------------------

That being said, I did also have an interesting phone conversation with her.
She has Christmas stuff I missed in her shed when I was moving out in October.
I had texted her about this, and when we were taking care of it on Friday evening.
She didn't answer that night, but did on Saturday morning.
She said she would let me know when she would be dropping it at my work.
It was very factual and kind of business like. I closed the conversation by saying
"I miss the way we used to talk. Thanks for letting me know the plan with that stuff. I would like to chat, if you want to give me a call on Sunday, I'll be driving home and will have time to talk"
I kind of got mad at myself for "being so available" with that message, and I did not expect her to call.
Oddly enough, she did.

She asked what I needed to talk about, and if everything was ok. I said things were fine, and that I had mentioned what I did the day prior because I literally wanted to just chat. I asked her about work, her daughters dance lessons, the dogs, etc.
It was actually a nice chat.
Then she went on to reiterate that she had thought I needed something, and that she hadn't thought it was a call to just catch up. I told her I was sorry she got that impression, to which she replied "oh its ok, it was my own assumption".
She then went on to talk about the fact that she has been cold in her replies because she is trying to have space like we had talked about back at my boundary message. I said I understood, and that talking to her was just too natural, which it certainly can be. I talked about seeing the dogs, and she said she felt like there was "ulterior motive" last time I had asked, because her agreeing to do so, led to me mentioning that I cant be platonic, and we never saw each other. She made a comment about my "boundary" and said the she still thought it was a good idea, but I could also tell she did not like how it had come off ultimatum-ish (Yea, so you guys were right about that)
I said that I had no hope, expectations or wouldn't make any moves if / when we ever see eachother, but reminded her I would never be without feelings and attraction. She said "I'm not ready for that"
She went on to talk about how she was focusing on her "routines" and herself, and daughter. That taking care of the house, daughter and dogs took up all her time and energy. She said something about "Moving on" and quickly jumped in to specify it was "not moving on romantically, but in my own life". She seemed pretty legitimately concerned about how I was doing and asked several questions about my son.

So, she's still distant / hesitant and definitely still harbors some bad feelings about a lot of things. Still Aloof and distant.
However, she is not raging at me. She spoke about her normal stuff (work dogs etc) very casually and freely.
I said I would respect her space and that I was around. She said she would be by soon with the Christmas stuff.
The conversation ended civilly and didn't drag on

I have some mixed feelings about this interaction. I feel like it still leaves me in the position of less "power" (i hate that term but I don't know how else to put it), but it was a generally pleasant exchange and those always feel good with her.
I still feel as energized as I did on Thursday/Friday, but a bit more...At Peace? after that conversation.
Being at peace seems like a distany memory, so being noticibly closer to that feels like a win.

Im still doing ME, for me and ME LAD. Whether that conversation was closure, the seed of a new page, or literally nothing makes not much difference in the execution of my plans for myself.

FF Krunch clear of the scene and returning to quarters.

[Rev]

What I notice here ... same trying to figure out exactly what this relationship is - less emotionally turbulent reactions - more getting a grip on what you are available for and what you need for yourself.

Thoughts?

[OKrunch]

What I notice here ... same trying to figure out exactly what this relationship is - less emotionally turbulent reactions - more getting a grip on what you are available for and what you need for yourself.

Thoughts?

Id be inclined to agree.
I still certainly still have that need to understand, and much (still probably too much) investment on its outcomes regarding the two of us. However, today felt more fulfilling. It was more logic than emotion. The storm is settling and I am thinking more clearly because of it.

I'm thinking as much of houses as of her. If not more. It feels good to have a goal, a landmark to guide by.

I had an awesome weekend with my son, and that was more important than anything I wrote about otherwise.

[Rev]

All of this is good.

All ... good.

Rev

[OKrunch]

It's an odd place to have arrived at.

I obviously still care very much about her, the family we had been building and so on. I miss my house, i miss her, i miss my dogs, i miss our kids together.
That being said, Yesterdays conversation has settled a sense of acceptance(?) over the whole situation for me.

Like, I still want the same outcome. I still think about the same things, a lot, but it isnt keeping me up at night. It's not giving me anxiety responses like it had been. The conversation made me really feel like she is actually focusing on herself and trying to sort herself out. Does that mean she is 100% not seeing someone? No. Does that mean that I can instantly trust everything she says? No.
This is an issue I had with the previous reconciliation. It just HAPPENED, we never really discussed things, worked on anything.

That won't happen again.

So, yea, just journaling really. She was pretty quick to fall into talking about her day, and that felt so Normal, so comfortable.
I hope it was nice for her, and she remembers it fondly. It was nice to not have any contention in the conversation.
That said, i was probably a bit too forward in how I reached out, and will be stepping back and letting things settle for now.
I feel in a better place than I was on Friday, and that's really all that counts.

[Rev]

It's an odd place to have arrived at.

I obviously still care very much about her, the family we had been building and so on. I miss my house, i miss her, i miss my dogs, i miss our kids together.
That being said, Yesterdays conversation has settled a sense of acceptance(?) over the whole situation for me.

Like, I still want the same outcome. I still think about the same things, a lot, but it isnt keeping me up at night. It's not giving me anxiety responses like it had been. The conversation made me really feel like she is actually focusing on herself and trying to sort herself out. Does that mean she is 100% not seeing someone? No. Does that mean that I can instantly trust everything she says? No.
This is an issue I had with the previous reconciliation. It just HAPPENED, we never really discussed things, worked on anything.

That won't happen again.

So, yea, just journaling really. She was pretty quick to fall into talking about her day, and that felt so Normal, so comfortable.
I hope it was nice for her, and she remembers it fondly. It was nice to not have any contention in the conversation.
That said, i was probably a bit too forward in how I reached out, and will be stepping back and letting things settle for now.
I feel in a better place than I was on Friday, and that's really all that counts.

So here's a question to ponder - in order to get a sense of yourself in the middle of your journey.

1) There are all the details about what you want, what happened, what to do and say. And you will continue to process that out.

2) Then what is emerging is process how your emotional responses/reactions and subsequent cognitive response/reactions are evolving. Your posts are including these moments of self awareness too. 

All of this is good.

I'm curious to know - if you were to look at your self from outside yourself, and watch yourself go through this process of getting yourself to where you are right at this moment - how do you feel about the way things are going for you and your self esteem?

Put another way, if someone came to you right now and asked for your advice about an approach to make sense of it all, what advice would you give them based on what you know is working for you?

Thoughts?

Hang in there. Reach out any time.

Rev

[chemist52]

You have been handling this so well, much better than you give yourself credit for. Going no contact is not easy, especially when there are children involved. I understand the same feelings of wanting to help and support someone, almost to the point of martyrdom. There’s not much else I can add, as everyone has given such advise already! I hope this reassures you that you have a whole community of people who have been where you have been and are here to support you through this process. Continue to seek any help you need. You did nothing to deserve being treated this way, and there was nothing wrong that you did to cause this. It’s a issue she has with herself. You have nothing to feel guilty about either. You were her partner, not her therapist. Most of us aren’t aware of how BPD affects people until someone we care about has it. The initial road is hard for you, and us now, but we will have an easier path as time moves forward. She may feel like things are great now, but give it time, she’ll realize too late she shot herself in the foot.

[OKrunch]

I'm curious to know - if you were to look at your self from outside yourself, and watch yourself go through this process of getting yourself to where you are right at this moment - how do you feel about the way things are going for you and your self esteem?

Put another way, if someone came to you right now and asked for your advice about an approach to make sense of it all, what advice would you give them based on what you know is working for you?

Thoughts?

Hang in there. Reach out any time.

Rev

I'm curious to know - if you were to look at your self from outside yourself, and watch yourself go through this process of getting yourself to where you are right at this moment - how do you feel about the way things are going for you and your self esteem?

Honestly, thats tough to answer from "outside". The difference being the self esteem i am projecting into the world vs. what I actually feel, Still very much in a "Fake it till you Make it" mode. Things have been so varied between warm, tepid, and freeing damn cold. Things feel hopeful and bleak at the same time. I am hopeful and confident about my growing ability to let go of hope, and trying to mind read. At the same time, I still feel pretty "brought low". My self esteem is improving, albeit slowly, but the thought of "nothing" being the end result and possibly losing, forever, the potential family and what we were building is still pretty damn crushing at times.

Put another way, if someone came to you right now and asked for your advice about an approach to make sense of it all, what advice would you give them based on what you know is working for you?

I would tell them that trying to understand, plan for or predict any future results or behaviors is an exercise in masochism.
I would remind that person that despite what their internal dialogue is telling them, they do have VALUE. the same value they had before the relationship started and they new their ex even existed. We GIVE ourselves to our relationships, and that can often be a large portion of its downfall.

I am trying to remind myself, several times a day, that the Man that she met before I fell in love is the man she was attracted to. Not the codependent person I became, Independence is attractive. Uniqueness is attractive, and so is confidence.

after having typed that, I'm actually a little bummed at myself. I don't think I was being fully Independent on the phone yesterday. I made it clear I'm still very interested and invested. While that might help balm the abandonment issues of a BPD, it comes off as needy and unattractive in the view of normal relationship dynamics.

So which is the right way? No contact and build attraction through independence and growth, so she sees this growth WHEN she checks in on me?
OR
Be present, make it known I'm available and there for her? Make it known I will not give up on her.
Which possibly helps abandonment issues but could be construed as still acting co-dependent.

[OKrunch]

You have been handling this so well, much better than you give yourself credit for. Going no contact is not easy, especially when there are children involved. I understand the same feelings of wanting to help and support someone, almost to the point of martyrdom. There’s not much else I can add, as everyone has given such advise already! I hope this reassures you that you have a whole community of people who have been where you have been and are here to support you through this process. Continue to seek any help you need. You did nothing to deserve being treated this way, and there was nothing wrong that you did to cause this. It’s a issue she has with herself. You have nothing to feel guilty about either. You were her partner, not her therapist. Most of us aren’t aware of how BPD affects people until someone we care about has it. The initial road is hard for you, and us now, but we will have an easier path as time moves forward. She may feel like things are great now, but give it time, she’ll realize too late she shot herself in the foot.

I appreciate your kind words, I wish it FELT like i was handling this well on my end. She kicked me out Sept 22nd, and here I am still in pretty much the same sport. Worrying about her, after how she chucked me out like trash, but yet here I am, still pining. I can't help but feel like some of this is my fault, there were times i couldve been more present. done better handling my reactions, and not being lazy around the house.
I feel like i should be far more angry with her, and I shouldnt be hoping for a reconnect after how I was treated, but yet, I am.

[Rev]

I'm curious to know - if you were to look at your self from outside yourself, and watch yourself go through this process of getting yourself to where you are right at this moment - how do you feel about the way things are going for you and your self esteem?

Honestly, thats tough to answer from "outside". The difference being the self esteem i am projecting into the world vs. what I actually feel, Still very much in a "Fake it till you Make it" mode. Things have been so varied between warm, tepid, and freeing damn cold. Things feel hopeful and bleak at the same time. I am hopeful and confident about my growing ability to let go of hope, and trying to mind read. At the same time, I still feel pretty "brought low". My self esteem is improving, albeit slowly, but the thought of "nothing" being the end result and possibly losing, forever, the potential family and what we were building is still pretty damn crushing at times.

Put another way, if someone came to you right now and asked for your advice about an approach to make sense of it all, what advice would you give them based on what you know is working for you?

I would tell them that trying to understand, plan for or predict any future results or behaviors is an exercise in masochism.
I would remind that person that despite what their internal dialogue is telling them, they do have VALUE. the same value they had before the relationship started and they new their ex even existed. We GIVE ourselves to our relationships, and that can often be a large portion of its downfall.

I am trying to remind myself, several times a day, that the Man that she met before I fell in love is the man she was attracted to. Not the codependent person I became, Independence is attractive. Uniqueness is attractive, and so is confidence.

after having typed that, I'm actually a little bummed at myself. I don't think I was being fully Independent on the phone yesterday. I made it clear I'm still very interested and invested. While that might help balm the abandonment issues of a BPD, it comes off as needy and unattractive in the view of normal relationship dynamics.

So which is the right way? No contact and build attraction through independence and growth, so she sees this growth WHEN she checks in on me?
OR
Be present, make it known I'm available and there for her? Make it known I will not give up on her.
Which possibly helps abandonment issues but could be construed as still acting co-dependent.

Crunch DUDE - that is OUTSTANDING work - Really great Cognitive Behavioral Therapy stuff.   And so,  to your question, the answer is that it will become clear as your mind continues to become clear. That is really what a guy like Sinister Complex means when he says - "You do you."    There is only one right way - the right way for the guy you say was this guy - I am trying to remind myself, several times a day, that the Man that she met before I fell in love is the man she was attracted to. Not the codependent person I became, Independence is attractive. Uniqueness is attractive, and so is confidence.  

Except you what is right for that guy - not her. Does that make sense?  What do these words evoke in you/

Hang in there. Reach out any time.

Rev

[OKrunch]

Crunch DUDE - that is OUTSTANDING work - Really great Cognitive Behavioral Therapy stuff.   And so,  to your question, the answer is that it will become clear as your mind continues to become clear. That is really what a guy like Sinister Complex means when he says - "You do you."    There is only one right way - the right way for the guy you say was this guy - I am trying to remind myself, several times a day, that the Man that she met before I fell in love is the man she was attracted to. Not the codependent person I became, Independence is attractive. Uniqueness is attractive, and so is confidence.  

Except you what is right for that guy - not her. Does that make sense?  What do these words evoke in you/

Hang in there. Reach out any time.

Rev

Thanks Rev, Im not doing any CBT as part of my therapy, but its good to know that all fits in the guidelines.
Just got hit with a pretty big wave of anger.
Was our relationship perfect? no.
But what does she lose ? nothing, she chose the breakup. I did not, But yet, I lost my HOME (for the 2nd time, at the cusp of winter) She didnt. I lost my dogs, my security, my warmth, my ability to cook in a godamn kitchen. My shower. My CHILDS SENSE OF SECURITY.

And yet whenever we talk, she always has something to talk about how hard her situation is. Yesteray it was the fact that she needs car repairs and "cant afford to go to the gym anymore"
Like...UUUHHHGGG that makes me so mad. She did ask how i was doing, how apratment hunt was going and so on.

We had discussed Cohabitation so we could avoid this EXACT SCENARIO.
And whos fault is it that that couldnt happen? MINE of course.

Sorry for the rant. Im just really godamn angry that I suffer all these losses and she still acts like the one who go screwed over.

[Rev]

Thanks Rev, Im not doing any CBT as part of my therapy, but its good to know that all fits in the guidelines.
Just got hit with a pretty big wave of anger.
Was our relationship perfect? no.
But what does she lose ? nothing, she chose the breakup. I did not, But yet, I lost my HOME (for the 2nd time, at the cusp of winter) She didnt. I lost my dogs, my security, my warmth, my ability to cook in a godamn kitchen. My shower. My CHILDS SENSE OF SECURITY.

And yet whenever we talk, she always has something to talk about how hard her situation is. Yesteray it was the fact that she needs car repairs and "cant afford to go to the gym anymore"
Like...UUUHHHGGG that makes me so mad. She did ask how i was doing, how apratment hunt was going and so on.

We had discussed Cohabitation so we could avoid this EXACT SCENARIO.
And whos fault is it that that couldnt happen? MINE of course.

Sorry for the rant. Im just really godamn angry that I suffer all these losses and she still acts like the one who go screwed over.

Anger is a good sign in the sense that you are letting some stuff in now at a rate you can process it.  I can be a great catalyst to taking care of what is important to you. It kind've breaks the fantasy about how great things were, and so on. It breaks the infatuation - which can cause us to suppress stuff we shouldn't.

And DO NOT apologize for ranting. I am happy to listen because others listened to me and you will one day pay this forward.

Hang in there.
Reach out any time.

Rev

[OKrunch]

Whats more is that if, I voiced all of these frustrations to her, I know what the response would be.

"I didn't kick you out, you got yourself kicked out.  you knew how things were going and chose to yell anyway. you did this to yourself and your son. Not me"

"Your son isnt homeless, hes staying with his mother. About time too, i was doing all her mothering for her!"

"I've been homeless before, you'll get on your feet"

"The relationship failing was your fault, it was because of YOUR responses to our arguments"

She never takes any blame. But shes damn good at making it seem like she did.
Only 1 hour left of work, so I can go work out, and go to bed, only to wake up just as Screwed as I am today, tomorrow.

She KNOWS how bad she screwed me over. I lost my home, my custody, my security.
And all she can talk about is her bills and her problems.

MAN i am pissed.

[chemist52]

I felt the same way after being pushed and pulled for 3 1/2 years. I still have some days where I feel like I’m internally collapsing and falling apart. That is part of the healing process, and it’s perfectly valid and normal to have days like that. It’s a fresh wound for you. I can hear how much you loved her, and feelings like that do not fade in a day or a week. You invested a lot into that relationship, so there is no need to rush the grieving process. It really does feel like mourning someone who is still alive. Many of us in your situation felt that way, worrying about them cause no one else seemed to give a damn. I understanding feeling like you need to blame yourself. It’s rational to think “I must have done something to deserve this”. In reality, you did not. 95% of the time it is not caused by you. Something that has helped me was the following:
1) if this were truly my fault, I would not be receiving as much care and support as I am
2) This is not the first time this has happened, it is a pattern of behavior for them
3) I could have been abusive, and the result still would have been the same
4) People who know us would not tell me I did nothing wrong

It’s completely understandable that at times you felt like you should have been more present and less reactive. I wouldn’t blame yourself too much. You were responding to an issue you were unaware of, so it makes sense that it was not handled perfectly. Also, we’re human and we make mistakes. Your intentions were to care and understand. The lack of responsiveness could also come from the fact that at times, you were with two different people in the same body.

That is what makes this so hard. You’re free from Hyde, but you lost Jekyll. I’m two months no contact and I still have urges to reach out and want to help. Those feelings are natural, do not try to fight them. It’s hard losing your best friend to themselves. We all wished this was a good twin evil twin situation, where the evil twin would be banished. It’s okay to still feel love for her and that you wish for reconciliation. At the same time, it can not be you that can fix her. She has to want the help, and figure that out on her own. You can still love her and set a boundary of “I care about you, but I will not be disrespected”. It’s about loving caring and protecting yourself right now. It’s about getting yourself back. That’s the thing with BPD, they see everyone as two different people except themselves. It’s a process, and a pain most of us can’t describe or have felt before. This is a marathon and not a sprint, and everyone runs at different paces. You don’t need to be over something when you’re not ready. Grieve and process at your own pace. Keep up the great work!

[waverider]

Jekyll was not real through to the core, Both Jekyll and Hyde were just veneers attached to a BPD core. BPD is not an on/off situation, it is constant, the fluctuations are reactions to triggers, but the thought processing is the same constant.  Computer says yes/ computer says no, same computer/ same processor, but it is the answer it gives that determines whether we perceive it as friend or foe. That's why you need to be able to either handle the whole or not at all. You can't cherry pick the reactions that are favourable. This is what confuses us. It takes time for this reality to fully set in, then you will be better equipped to deal with the grieving aspect.

When you experience the Jekyll in someone else where it is a true representation of who their core being is you will feel the authenticity difference. Not just a self serving, even if self sabotaging, thought processor. but someone who is equipped with the empathy to know and care about how their actions affect others.

[OKrunch]

I felt the same way after being pushed and pulled for 3 1/2 years. I still have some days where I feel like I’m internally collapsing and falling apart. That is part of the healing process, and it’s perfectly valid and normal to have days like that. It’s a fresh wound for you. I can hear how much you loved her, and feelings like that do not fade in a day or a week. You invested a lot into that relationship, so there is no need to rush the grieving process. It really does feel like mourning someone who is still alive. Many of us in your situation felt that way, worrying about them cause no one else seemed to give a damn. I understanding feeling like you need to blame yourself. It’s rational to think “I must have done something to deserve this”. In reality, you did not. 95% of the time it is not caused by you. Something that has helped me was the following:
1) if this were truly my fault, I would not be receiving as much care and support as I am
2) This is not the first time this has happened, it is a pattern of behavior for them
3) I could have been abusive, and the result still would have been the same
4) People who know us would not tell me I did nothing wrong

It’s completely understandable that at times you felt like you should have been more present and less reactive. I wouldn’t blame yourself too much. You were responding to an issue you were unaware of, so it makes sense that it was not handled perfectly. Also, we’re human and we make mistakes. Your intentions were to care and understand. The lack of responsiveness could also come from the fact that at times, you were with two different people in the same body.

That is what makes this so hard. You’re free from Hyde, but you lost Jekyll. I’m two months no contact and I still have urges to reach out and want to help. Those feelings are natural, do not try to fight them. It’s hard losing your best friend to themselves. We all wished this was a good twin evil twin situation, where the evil twin would be banished. It’s okay to still feel love for her and that you wish for reconciliation. At the same time, it can not be you that can fix her. She has to want the help, and figure that out on her own. You can still love her and set a boundary of “I care about you, but I will not be disrespected”. It’s about loving caring and protecting yourself right now. It’s about getting yourself back. That’s the thing with BPD, they see everyone as two different people except themselves. It’s a process, and a pain most of us can’t describe or have felt before. This is a marathon and not a sprint, and everyone runs at different paces. You don’t need to be over something when you’re not ready. Grieve and process at your own pace. Keep up the great work!

Chemist, thank you for your kind words. Your empathy is palpable and it means a lot. You very much say what I am feeling in this reply. Its the helplessness. The confusion. I know I can't fix the symptoms of BPD. My aim has always been to be the safe harbor to ride out the storms. The warm hug when the world feels like its too much. I was trying to be the safety shelter for the seasonal storm that is BPD.
This is why I had such confusion about being present to calm the fear of abandonment, Vs. keeping my distance to build attraction.

That said, my focus is still on my own situation.
I need Housing, and unfortunately, right now, that seems to mean playing the waiting game.
My current situation has so much time, stagnancy. I feel defeated and low. Living in a camper at age 35.
its pathetic.
I ordered small Christmas gifts for her and her daughter yesterday after I bought all the stuff for my son.
I did it because I genuinely wanted to. Christmas was special for us as a family.
I'm now concerned she's going to see it as "trying to butter her up"
I haven't talked to her since Sunday, and will not be reaching out. (Which I have said several times recently, but I'm sticking to it this time).


If I had a house, or a new apartment, I could focus on organizing, setup, decorating, and getting the things i need (Couch, TV, workout stuff, etc)
Still packing away money, paying off debt to build credit. Getting ready for FHA Loan in spring.

The next few months are going to SUCK, but they are the toll to pay on the road to peace.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jekyll was not real through to the core, Both Jekyll and Hyde were just veneers attached to a BPD core. BPD is not an on/off situation, it is constant, the fluctuations are reactions to triggers, but the thought processing is the same constant.  Computer says yes/ computer says no, same computer/ same processor, but it is the answer it gives that determines whether we perceive it as friend or foe. That's why you need to be able to either handle the whole or not at all. You can't cherry pick the reactions that are favourable. This is what confuses us. It takes time for this reality to fully set in, then you will be better equipped to deal with the grieving aspect.

When you experience the Jekyll in someone else where it is a true representation of who their core being is you will feel the authenticity difference. Not just a self serving, even if self sabotaging, thought processor. but someone who is equipped with the empathy to know and care about how their actions affect others.

Waverider - I thank you for your tough love and bluntness. These are useful tools, and I appreciate the reality check.
I think I still need time to truly see it this way. I see Jekyll taking steps to save THEMSELVES, and Im not ready to Not be there if that should happen.
I had a good conversation with Therapist yesterday, which we are continuing tomorrow.
It centers around future planning. She has asked me to plan what my future looks like without her in it at all.
I told her that I am going to kind of "hold my position" until spring / Summer.
that is when she typically "returns to Jekyll", and if she has done some progressive work during this time alone, that is our best, last chance.
In the meantime, I have other things to focus on. Dating and rebounding are not on that list.
I can worry about dating when I have a house secured, and life has some solidity and consistency again.

I will be working on separation techniques in the meantime, so basically, here is outline.

December- Do Christmas for my Son, it is his favorite thing and he needs to be happy. Get into Routine of working out, No more smokes as of Jan 1st.

Jan thru March - SAVE EVERY PENNY - Keep eye on housing market, look for CHEAP rentals. Workout, Hike, wait for Spring.

April thru July - Hit savings goal by April 1st. Continue saving and start house shopping. Buy before Birthday in Mid July.

August - Forever - Live in Peace, securely, in my own tiny castle. Get my own Dog. Raise the best Damn Lad the lands have ever seen. Anything else is just Gravy.

[tina7868]

Hi OKrunch! I have read through some of your posts, and wanted to say that the work you are doing on yourself and the clear shifts in your perspective are commendable

[Rev]

Hi OKrunch! I have read through some of your posts, and wanted to say that the work you are doing on yourself and the clear shifts in your perspective are commendable

Took the words right out of my mouth!

[OKrunch]

Im considering cancelling the Christmas stuff I ordered.

Thank you both very much, it doesn't feel like I've made much progress at all on my end, so reassurance like that helps a lot.

[OKrunch]

I cancelled the Christmas gift order. As much as I want to send them stuff (especially her daughter), It is counter productive to do so for several reasons.
I said earlier in my thread "I will give her the gift of missing me for Christmas" and I almost didn't stick to that.

The phone call we had last Sunday went pretty well. That's a perfectly good spot to leave things.

Things I am reminding myself of daily.

1. She left me, or rather ejected me. Away from home, security and stability. All so she could feel better.
IF (HUGE IF) we can ever start a NEW, productive relationship, the first step needs to be her coming back to me, not me going to her.

2. Everything she has done in the last 4 months has been entirely selfish, and yet almost everything I have done in the past 4 months has been sacrificing. That ends now.

3. It's a matter of respect. BPD or not, I have CHOSEN her every time in the past. I never quit, despite the fights. I chose to see the good outweigh the bad. Twice now she has chosen the other path. The easier path, the path of the quitter.
So, back to respect. Why should I disrespect myself by fighting against the tide of an opposing choice?
She chose to end things, as she has always done, with everyone, not just me.
Which means I have been putting in an unreciprocated amount of energy into the corpse of this relationship.
I will no longer disrespect myself by doing so. If she ever regains the amount of respect for me, to see what was there. She will. That's her journey to take and decision to make.

I am what she has been wanting her whole life. I offered the lifetime love and partnership she wants, but cannot seem to actually HAVE when its presented to her.
The engulfment caused by our engagement is so glaringly obvious at this point. Looking back there was so much more self sabotaging behavior than I originally saw.

Moral of the story. I RESPECT MYSELF far too much to keep throwing myself in front of the emotional bus.

So to my ex i say.

I miss you, everyday. My heart aches to go back to the good times I still believe were the core of who we are and our relationship. Ill always love you, but until such time as you decide to meet me in the middle, and love me back, but I gotta go.
No more free support only when YOU need it, no more me telling you "everything will be ok" when you complain about your emotions or your stresses. No more half measures and maybes. I can only give those things if there is healthy, mutual reciprocation and honesty.

Good. Bye.

[cranmango]

I am so impressed, OKrunch. You sound like you are focused on taking care of yourself right now, rather than taking care of your ex. Really powerful insights and perspective in your post.

[tina7868]

I said earlier in my thread "I will give her the gift of missing me for Christmas" and I almost didn't stick to that.

I'd like to normalize this oscillation. You are self-aware enough to reflect upon what it is that serves you best, and there isn't a single answer to what that looks like.

I read confidence and recognition of your own value in your posts. It is inspiring!  

[OKrunch]

Thank you all for your supportive words.
They keep me level headed, and I come back to them when I am feeling weak or in doubt.

This week has been pretty damn hard.
The frequent pendulum swinging between being resolved to cut her out of my life and being angry Vs. missing her and wanting her back is frustrating as all hell.

I reordered that Christmas gift after I cancelled it, then ended up cancelling it a second time.

When the pendulum has swung one way, and I am feeling angry, and done, these are my thoughts.
I get angry about how much she seems not to care about kicking me out, cutting my son out of her life, the fact that BOTH the kids voiced the fact they didn't want us to split up in the weeks leading up to the split. She doesn't care that the kids both lost here, that a 7 year old boy got on the bus one morning thinking everything was fine, then never got to see his house, room, step sister, dogs, cats, or step mother ever again. Just surgically cut away in the matter of hours, and she doesn't care. As long as HER needs got met, right then and there, that's all that mattered. If she has had any doubt, or guilt in the last three months because of any of that, she has kept it to herself, because she made a decision, and cannot be wrong. I get angry about the amount of arguments and fights I can see now were manufactured. I get resolved not to let this kind of crap muddy the waters of my life again. Looking for housing has been a masterclass in denial and frustration. I have been living like an isolated camper hermit for the last three months. It is demeaning, frustrating, and I don't get to see my son nearly as often. All that I love in the world has been cut away, or reduced. I have had some pretty dark damn days of late. I understand many things that I could have done better, but honestly, I think often it would have yielded the same result regardless.
At the end of the day, I get angry about the complete callousness I have seen from her, and the lack of reciprocated respect. I feel like a fool for having reached out and tried to maintain a relationship with someone who ejected me like a parasite.
I get angry at myself for being weak, and begging. there have been days I see the world through a furnace gate, the whole world looks aflame, or burned away. Last night and this morning were pretty bleak. I feel spurned, rejected, lied to, cast away, done wrong and, the key one here, ABANDONED.

Then, like water torture, I'm pulled back up for air, and all I can do is miss her. Miss the kids laughing. Miss The Beatles echoing through the house, wafting through the air laden with the smell of homemade soup broth. I miss having to come through the door and push both my dogs off me, comfortable in the knowladge my son has been home from school for hours and is upstairs playing with his "sister". They began calling eachother brother and sister before we even lived together. She (an 11 year old who is already worried over social status in a new middle school) called my 7 year old her best friend, despite the age gap. I miss sunsets over our lake, going to bed knowing shes been there warming it, while i Stayed up late to enjoy a silent house after an evening of kids and dogs chaos.
I miss planning our nerdy wedding, in a castle, with oaths sworn on swords.
I feel like there is no way, in all of the 9 realms, I will ever find her equal.
The wit, the humor, the sheer intelligence. the drive, the artistic talents, the fire.
She is my Valkyrie, she has overcome every obstacle life has thrown at her, and her laugh could fill the Colosseum.


So, for now, there is where I live, on the pendulum.

I feel like a piece of steel, thrust into the Forge Fire that is my unrelenting anger over this whole situation
only to be pulled out, for a moment into fresh clean air, and beaten by the Hammer of my fond memories, and the fact that despite all of this. I. Still. Love. Her.
Then I think about how after all of this pain, I do still love her, and that love is not being returned, or even anything remotely close to it, and I begin to feel angry again. Spurned, and not good enough. Then its back into the Fire again.
I've been folded over and reheated quite a few times now...


It's about time for the Quench
After that last time in the Fire, when the need for the Hammer has ended. Water is the last step.
Aqua Vita.
then comes the hardening, the sharpening.
the hilt, the handle and the finish work.

I'm almost ready for the quench. This might just be the last time in the fire, and every Hero needs a sword.
getting my grinding wheel and sharpening stone ready.




(Thanks for dealing with all my metaphors. ! )

[Hamster411]

Hi OKrunch,

I have read the entirety of your thread and have related to a lot of what you have gone through. I was in a relationship with my pwBPD for 2.5 years and throughout the relationship there was many ups and downs emotionally but we did not breakup until the end of that time, when she was in a state of psychosis. It has been 4 months of NC and I still think of her all the time, wondering if it could ever work out and get better if I decided to continue to stick with it. I relate to your feelings of feeling like she is your soulmate and that she truly loves you deep down. The NC has been difficult, but I blocked her number when we broke up and have left it that way since (she can still reach out to me through email or postage but has not made the effort to do so). I still feel guilty about blocking her and have thought about unblocking her several times over the last 4 months. I relate to how you feel about the good times, vacations, holidays etc., I still long for those times and have not found anyone new to have those experiences with now. I will continue to follow your thread.

[waverider]

The pendulum is the BPD process, it can't be stopped or held in one place, eventually the momentum sways it again.

To be able to handle its shifting position often takes a degree of indifference. Indifference is not a good foundation for a solid relationship. It may relieve the lows but it also dulls the highs.

Initial naivety dulls our initial perception of the pendulum process by allowing us to compartmentalize its components. But once the realization of the whole process becomes transparent we are often too invested to accept the obvious, so we slog on trying to get the cat to bark, frustrating ourselves and further triggering the cat to screech louder in the process.

It is a spiral that is both difficult to unwind, or escape. To sustain often involves dulling the soul and curtailing of one's expectations, and life goals. Some can live with this, some can't, but it is important to rid yourself of delusions so that you can move forward with realistic conviction and direction. Otherwise you can even end up hating and blaming yourself. Ultimately we are all victims of our own decisions, or indecisions.

Remember life is longer than the last few years, and as life rolls out a few years bear less significance on the whole, unless you drag them out to be a larger portion of your greater life where they run the risk of overwriting it.

Stay strong, keep your mind on the big picture, and don't let the pendulum knock you down

[OKrunch]

Staying in no contact can be damn hard!

Its amazing how many times a day my mind finds reasons to reach out and I have to talk them down.
The addiction symptoms are legit.

In some ways no contact feels counterproductive with BPD/Avoidant attachment.
In others it makes sense.

Right now, I just want to be in a spot where she's communicating with me.
Nobody else gets it like she does sometimes.
Despite all my resolve of late, I still really friggin miss her.
Today has sucked.

[Rev]

Staying in no contact can be damn hard!

Its amazing how many times a day my mind finds reasons to reach out and I have to talk them down.
The addiction symptoms are legit.

In some ways no contact feels counterproductive with BPD/Avoidant attachment.
In others it makes sense.

Right now, I just want to be in a spot where she's communicating with me.
Nobody else gets it like she does sometimes.
Despite all my resolve of late, I still really friggin miss her.
Today has sucked.

All of this is true.

And tomorrow is another day. Choose to honour your struggle as a best as you can.

I just wanted to tell you that I have read this. And I honour your struggle.

Hang in there. Reach out any time.

Rev

[OKrunch]

Thanks again as always.

As much as it hurts, and not reaching out is hard, I'm done playing this game.

Deleted her number, blocked her facebook.
Getting a new phone next week, and mailing the one i have back to her (its from her phone plan).
There will be no note in the package with the phone.

i put myself out there for her several times After she kicked me and my son out. She hasn't shown an ounce of give-a-sheet.
I looked over old messages right when we we getting back together a year and a half ago. Even in those, nothing is her fault.

I plan to take some time off. Im not going to reach out to her ever again. Ill reply if she does, but soon she wont even have a way to contact me.

I am going to take a break from the forum also. I want to focus entirely on my son for the holidays.
Ill come back after new years and check in.

You are all amazing. This journey would have been another tale of me getting in my own way and paving my own road to failure if not for this community and my therapist.

I may still have pain.
But this weekend i fully embraced acceptance. Radically.

My power is mine again. Forevermore.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   Sounds like a good plan.  Take care of yourself with self-care - that includes taking a badly needed break from all this mess as it can be an obsession.  Take care of your son.

   Happy Holidays.

[OKrunch]

Well, looks like the break needs to wait a day.

I got a call from her this morning. She had called to see about when to drop off the Christmas decorations she still has of mine.
The conversation started off good, she was warm and making jokes. Then I could hear the anxiety building in her voice, I tried to end the conversation there in a good way, but she ended up at first expressing guilt that I was in the housing situation I am, and that turned into her stressing over bills and money and eventually to her yelling about why I failed in the relationship.
I calmly said I did not want to fight and hung up.
She began sending texts to the effect of
"You should have let me go find someone who would have loved me for who I was in the beginning"  (reference to my need to take things slow at first after a bad divorce)

Compared how i felt in the beginning to some guy who wants to date her now and she just isn't attracted to (very much hinted that it was because he lacks many of my traits)

AGAIN accused me of "only being with her so I had a place to live and someone to take care of me"

"you should have made me feel like I was worth something years ago"

I responded to these things by saying things like "Im sorry you feel that way, I would like to hear more about why you feel that way"
and
"I understand why you would feel that way, but I have chosen you because of you for a long time, not because of any needs i expect you to fulfill"

Some takeaways:

She's definitely feeling guilty about her rash reaction of kicking me out, but finding ways to still justify it.

She sometimes misses me and is comparing me to potential suitors, to apparently frustrating results.

She is still raw about a lot of things, both real and perceived, and is still placing all the blame on me. (this one is big)

I showed I am in control of my anger, as I did not react to hers the way I have in the past.

I feel like I accomplished some validating communication. We'll see if that counts for anything.

She was excited to talk with me at first.

--------------------------------------------------------------

So, right as I find some resolve, we have tests like this pop up.
I feel like although there was a lot that hurt about this conversation (especially her mentioning this other guy that wants her so bad) there was some progress and communication as well.

She's definitely still mad, whether that's all at me or some with herself, who knows.

Thoughts? Opinions?

[SaltyDawg]

Your conversation started nice, perhaps because of the holidays which can bring in 'warm and fuzzy feelings', and then it turned irrational and illogical especially after you rejected or invalidated her by politely hanging up the phone she went into a borderline rage.  This is not productive for either one of you guys.

Next time, keep it BIFF.

[OKrunch]

Your conversation started nice, perhaps because of the holidays which can bring in 'warm and fuzzy feelings', and then it turned irrational and illogical especially after you rejected or invalidated her by politely hanging up the phone she went into a borderline rage.  This is not productive for either one of you guys.

Next time, keep it BIFF.

I hung up because she began yelling, it was not after i hung up that she got angry.
I did keep it BIFF. I was pleasant, did not react to her anger. Brief as I ended it when it got contentious, Informative of my reasonable boundary.
Being yelled at is a boundary, I told her calmly and politely, "Please don't yell, I do not want to fight" and she yelled so I hung up.

She got angry after discussing her money stressors (which wouldn't be problem If we still had a 2 income household)

[OKrunch]

My Therapist's words -

"I feel like you handled that very well. You maintained very good control and set that boundary that you weren't going to fight. That is a great way to show action rather than just say things. The biggest thing that I am seeing is that she still blames you for everything and is not taking responsibility on her end. That is showing me that there isn't much in the way of progress on her end. So, with that being the case, this roller coaster is still going to follow the same patterns as before and she will continue to blame you for everything that goes wrong in her life, whether you guys are together or not. If you get back together, she will continue to point all these things out every time you guys argue. Keep that resolve because it is just going to be the same stuff ."

[OKrunch]

Mad at myself, I just threw any progress she had of missing me (which she obviously was starting to, based off the conversation) out the window.

[Rev]

Mad at myself, I just threw any progress she had of missing me (which she obviously was starting to, based off the conversation) out the window.

Say more?  I missed something maybe?

[OKrunch]

Say more?  I missed something maybe?

see previous post.

[SaltyDawg]

My Therapist's words -

"I feel like you handled that very well. You maintained very good control and set that boundary that you weren't going to fight. That is a great way to show action rather than just say things. The biggest thing that I am seeing is that she still blames you for everything and is not taking responsibility on her end. That is showing me that there isn't much in the way of progress on her end. So, with that being the case, this roller coaster is still going to follow the same patterns as before and she will continue to blame you for everything that goes wrong in her life, whether you guys are together or not. If you get back together, she will continue to point all these things out every time you guys argue. Keep that resolve because it is just going to be the same stuff ."

You did handle it well.  You kept the boundary.  The fact that your boundary ticked her off shows you that the boundary is indeed needed.

I think that your therapist is right, especially on the words that I highlighted and underlined.

Just because she sounded sweet at the onset, doesn't mean that she has changed her ways -- perhaps she was just being polite when she was 'warm and making jokes' with an ulterior motive of getting you to help out with her 'bills and money'? 

What do you think? 

[waverider]

Engagement is validation, even poor outcome engagement is  higher on the validation scale than abandonment, real or perceived. In the BPD world an energetic conflict is better than silence as it bolsters victimhood and it soothes by projecting responsibility. Sitting in silencing holding the can is not palatable to pwBPD

If you want out of this then worrying about her missing you needs to be off your radar. Missing you is only a feeling of the moment and does not affect the bigger picture. It is just an immediate gratification denial

[Rev]

I hung up because she began yelling, it was not after i hung up that she got angry.
I did keep it BIFF. I was pleasant, did not react to her anger. Brief as I ended it when it got contentious, Informative of my reasonable boundary.
Being yelled at is a boundary, I told her calmly and politely, "Please don't yell, I do not want to fight" and she yelled so I hung up.

She got angry after discussing her money stressors (which wouldn't be problem If we still had a 2 income household)

K ... if it's this one - then here's a question - what is it that you wish you could add to your personality or values or goals or whatever that would make it possible to hold a personal internal boundary? (As in not just your behavior but also the emotional connection).  Maybe a better way would be to ask what it would take for you to have a relationship based on your own terms or walk away? 

My own mentor once told me to stop trying to have a conversation with someone who simply didn't exist.

Is there something missing in you that could be improved that would change her?

Rev

[OKrunch]

Say more?  I missed something maybe?
Sorry if i sounded short with my "See previous post" Rev, I was running out the door.

You did handle it well.  You kept the boundary.  The fact that your boundary ticked her off shows you that the boundary is indeed needed.

I think that your therapist is right, especially on the words that I highlighted and underlined.

Just because she sounded sweet at the onset, doesn't mean that she has changed her ways -- perhaps she was just being polite when she was 'warm and making jokes' with an ulterior motive of getting you to help out with her 'bills and money'?

What do you think?
Salty, thank you. I agree the roller coaster is definitely a thing. I will be having a very productive chat with my therapist on Thursday. To be clear, she wasn't asking me for money. In fact, right now she has to pay me a bit each month until an assistance program for the house that I got is concluded. She was basically going on about all the household bills. Which I would gladly help with if i was still living there. I can see very clearly she hasn't changed many things. Still very emotionally touchy. Defensive. Treading with caution, which ill elaborate on below.

Engagement is validation, even poor outcome engagement is  higher on the validation scale than abandonment, real or perceived. In the BPD world an energetic conflict is better than silence as it bolsters victimhood and it soothes by projecting responsibility. Sitting in silencing holding the can is not palatable to pwBPD

If you want out of this then worrying about her missing you needs to be off your radar. Missing you is only a feeling of the moment and does not affect the bigger picture. It is just an immediate gratification denial

Wave, Great points here, and keeping it real as always. Thank you. Honestly, I know she will miss me, and that's not enough. hasn't been for a while now. If anything is on my radar, its her self awareness and healing, which SEEMS to be going better, which again ill elaborate on below.

K ... if it's this one - then here's a question - what is it that you wish you could add to your personality or values or goals or whatever that would make it possible to hold a personal internal boundary? (As in not just your behavior but also the emotional connection).  Maybe a better way would be to ask what it would take for you to have a relationship based on your own terms or walk away?

My own mentor once told me to stop trying to have a conversation with someone who simply didn't exist.

Is there something missing in you that could be improved that would change her?

Rev
Rev,
To have a relationship on my own terms or walk away? I would say that boils down to commitment, adherence and understanding. Both parties need to choose each other, everyday. When problems arise, they are discussed and worked on. Dedication to use a word.
Which I know I will be told, she has shown none of these to be lasting, and only knowing that these behaviors have a root. A difficult, gnarly and tough root, but a treatable one at the end of the day.
Insofar as something missing in me that could be improved?
A great many things, from further work on my temper, to further understanding of trauma responses and communication techniques, fitness, and money management.
Will any of those things CHANGE her? No, they only serve to make me better, which as a side effect is attractive. She needs to do any changing on her end, that is not in my locus of control.


Today's conversation went on for quite a while. A lot of things were discussed.
Are we any closer together or planning to hang out ? No. certainly not.
Reconciliation or making plans was not the point of this convo.
However I feel it was a constructive conversation.
We discussed how we have miscommunicated in the past.
Both of our reactionary behaviors, why those might occur, what triggers them.
We discussed how we had hurt and been hurt.
We apologized, and forgave.
We discussed how we aren't getting back together, or anything that resembles it, in the near future.
I talked about how, through therapy, I had a much better understanding of how I was listening to listen, not to empathize and understand. That I understood how important it was that we both feel Heard and Understood rather than just listened to.
We talked about the Kids and how they were each doing. 
We talked about therapy, and what we've each been reading.

She said a number of things that were unlike her normal responses.
things like, admitting blame, saying "I hope you don't think I think this is all your fault."
she admitted (without being asked about it) abandonment fears, and how she's "trained herself to deal" with them.
She mentioned not wanting to lead me on like she had in the past.
She said she "couldn't promise that this wouldn't happen again" (this is pretty big, even though it sounds bad, IMO)

Although some of these things still seem negative, they are pretty self aware statements. To me, they show that therapy is helping. She still holds on to old grievances and arguments too much, and began the day with her typical type of response, which was to yell and get angry when she started processing her emotions.

This conversation has given me hope that she is working on herself.
NOT that we will get back together. If that is ever a possibility, it will be a long time from now.
We both still have too much to do for ourselves.
She is focused on her stuff, I am focused on mine.
Today slackened a lot of tension, or so it feels. Communicating about anything in the future will be less emotional, as a lot of that was put to bed today.

I do believe that if we both do what we need for ourselves, stay in therapy, and make improvements, a happy future is POSSIBLE for us.
Do I expect, hope or plan for that to happen?
No.
I am still in the same boat, focused on getting my house for my son and I, and saving money and making healthier choices in recreation and diet. As with before, the ball is truly in her court, and she has a lot of field to cross before its close to being back in mine.
My path is set, and that's the path I'm taking. Her level of presence on that path is up to her, and It will be determined by her actions, over time. Just showing up isn't enough.

Today was a lot, but I'm feeling pretty at peace.

Thank you all.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Today's conversation went on for quite a while. A lot of things were discussed.
Communication is key, especially with a borderline.  Just make sure you are talking to her when she is baseline, and not splitting or emotionally charged.

Are we any closer together or planning to hang out ? No. certainly not.
Reconciliation or making plans was not the point of this convo.
I'm glad that you are keeping it real.  Just because she is this way today, doesn't mean she will be back to her old ways tomorrow.  You need to she a shift that exceeds the duration of her typical episode.  Only start to believe in it after she is has been this way for more than two weeks.  Give it time.

However I feel it was a constructive conversation.
We discussed how we have miscommunicated in the past.
Both of our reactionary behaviors, why those might occur, what triggers them.
We discussed how we had hurt and been hurt.
We apologized, and forgave.
WOW, this is MAJOR progress, she is becoming 'self-aware' AND you are too!  I feel that this is the 'key' to having a successful relationship with a borderline.  This ephiphany happened with my wife in the beginning of November, it will be a slow process of reconciliation.  I too have some reactive tendencies, and I to am triggered by my wife when I have done reactive yelling abuse back to her before I figured out she had a much more severe reaction than I do.  Think of it as an emotional multiplier for her.  In my case, her reaction to something is at least twice how I would handle it, so anything that is above a 5 for me is above a 10 for her on a scale of 1 to 10.  The difference between you and I is that I am roughly two months ahead of you, and we are still living under the same roof, so it is a bit different.  Do follow the advise of your Therapist, it sounds like your T is a good fit for you from what you have communicated.

We discussed how we aren't getting back together, or anything that resembles it, in the near future.
Keep it real, don't rush things.  Before even considering getting back together, you and her need to set boundaries and mutually agree on them.

I talked about how, through therapy, I had a much better understanding of how I was listening to listen, not to empathize and understand. That I understood how important it was that we both feel Heard and Understood rather than just listened to.
We talked about the Kids and how they were each doing. 
We talked about therapy, and what we've each been reading.
Communications, is another key area, especially with a borderline as they take things more than literally, especially if each of you feels as though each of you needs to be heard.  I am assuming that your 'not' was a typo, that I lined out for you.

She said a number of things that were unlike her normal responses.
things like, admitting blame, saying "I hope you don't think I think this is all your fault."
she admitted (without being asked about it) abandonment fears, and how she's "trained herself to deal" with them.
She mentioned not wanting to lead me on like she had in the past.
She said she "couldn't promise that this wouldn't happen again" (this is pretty big, even though it sounds bad, IMO)
This is absolute GOLD!  Yes, there will be setbacks, there has been in my relationship with my wife too.  For me, the difference is that my wife can now immediately recognize her mistake, and take corrective action instead of letting it become an all out rage - her previous dysregulation has become more regulated -- its not perfect, but it is a hell of a lot better.  You also need to be extra sensitive to her triggers, AND pre-triggered state, and reflect that back to her as soon as you see the pre-triggering, so she can learn to recognize it.

Although some of these things still seem negative, they are pretty self aware statements. To me, they show that therapy is helping. She still holds on to old grievances and arguments too much, and began the day with her typical type of response, which was to yell and get angry when she started processing her emotions.
Again "self-awareness" is KEY!  No relationship is perfect.  There will be disagreements, it is how these disagreements are handled will determine if a relationship will be pleasant or it will be horrendous.  You need to remember how long it took you to get to this point, for me it was two decades, you can't expect it to repair itself overnight magically.  The key to old grievances and arguments, is to forgive each other.  She needs to recognize the amount of resentment that she has about yelling and getting angry and work on those issues with her own individual therapist.

This conversation has given me hope that she is working on herself.
NOT that we will get back together. If that is ever a possibility, it will be a long time from now.
We both still have too much to do for ourselves.
She is focused on her stuff, I am focused on mine.
Today slackened a lot of tension, or so it feels. Communicating about anything in the future will be less emotional, as a lot of that was put to bed today.
Keep it real.  Yes, there is HOPE.  But keep it real.  Let her actions / inactions over time dictate what you are willing and unwilling to do in this relationship.  Whatever you do, do not rush back in [I need to follow my own advise on this too, as I want it to go faster, so I know the pull you are experiencing, as I am feeling it now -- be firm, I know you can do it].  Proceed at a 'dead slow speed' with your hand hovering over the emergency stop button, until you are certain, beyond a doubt, that she now has a reasonable amount of control over her emotions that you and your son can personally tolerate -- this takes time.

I do believe that if we both do what we need for ourselves, stay in therapy, and make improvements, a happy future is POSSIBLE for us.
Do I expect, hope or plan for that to happen?
No.
Keep it real.  Stated 'self-awareness' is totally awesome!  However, there is a tremendous amount of work that BOTH of you need to do to make it POSSIBLE.  Keep that "No", a "No" for now.  Be patient, watch, observe, and re-evaluate no sooner than 90 days from now [same time many employers use to see if an employee is a good fit, it is rare for someone to fake their personality for more than that time] to make it a 'maybe' - work with your therapist on this one.  Don't be afraid to reset that 90 day counter back to ZERO if there is a significant setback.  [example:  a full blown episode that is allowed to run the old course and isn't shortened or stopped by her]

I am still in the same boat, focused on getting my house for my son and I, and saving money and making healthier choices in recreation and diet. As with before, the ball is truly in her court, and she has a lot of field to cross before its close to being back in mine.
My path is set, and that's the path I'm taking. Her level of presence on that path is up to her, and It will be determined by her actions, over time. Just showing up isn't enough.
Dude, this is also GOLD!  Stay focused on you and your son - self-care first.  Let her show you that she wants the same thing as you do, "by her actions, over time"!

Today was a lot, but I'm feeling pretty at peace.
IT IS A LOT - DON'T DISCOUNT IT!  THIS IS AN AWESOME HOLIDAY GIFT - THE MOMENT OF "SELF-AWARENESS" FOR YOUR pwBPD!  CHERISH IT, STAY AT PEACE FOR THE HOLIDAYS AS A GIFT TO YOURSELF, AND DEAL WITH HARD WORK IN THE NEW YEAR!  [Sounds like a good 'New Year's Resolution' to me, it will definitely be mine!  ]

Now, I am going to keep it real for you.  I am still learning how this works, as it is not covered in the books and articles... and is ULTRA-RARE.

Now that she is becoming "Self-Aware" there WILL be setbacks.  She WILL make mistakes.  She is like a baby emotionally, and she is taking her first step(s) in good direction.  She WILL fall down, many times.  Do not judge her, or be harsh on her -- she will likely be her own hardest critic [at least in my case].  Only encourage her.  Give her genuine positive reinforcement [gratitude's] on things you like, and accomplishments that you see, no matter how minor they are [but don't overdo it].  If you are getting frustrated, express that you are, and then give her space after reassuring her that you will still be there.  Example:  "I am feeling frustrated, I am going to the next room to clear my head before I do something stupid.  I will be back once my head is clear."  If she follows you to the next room, get in your vehicle and leave, but reassure her that you will be back.  Learn communication techniques that will not put her down like the example I gave in this paragraph. 

If you have any questions -- do ask, as I am learning too. 

I have taken the time to [virtually] walk a mile in the borderline's shoes by going to a Facebook Support Group for u+d borderlines and non-borderlines who support their borderline, by diagnosed borderlines.  I mainly lurk there, unless specific questions are asked of the non-borderline, or no one is validating them on a legitimate feeling [like their partner cheating on them].  I have read their complaints, I have read how they think, I have read what they want in a relationship and how they want to be treated, and how they feel when the recognize that they are splitting and lashing out at their FP [favorite person] whether that is a friend, lover, or acquaintance.  It is definitely an eye opening experience as you will be exposed to all kinds of borderlines from exotic dancers to holy roller Christians, all in the same place.  I cannot list this group, as I have been previously moderated on posting it, PM me for the link or name of the group, if you are interested in doing this.

Keep in mind, this is the first step of long and difficult journey ahead of you.  Think of it as you just tied the game at the last second and you were loosing, and you are in overtime.  It is not over, but the other team has the advantage - make the best of it.

[OKrunch]

Salty,

Thank for for all that great advice and input!
Yesterday and into today, she has continued to be amicable, talkative and friendly.
Im not jumping the gun, and just matching her energy.

There is even a slight possibility I might see her on Xmas Eve.
There is certainly caution, on both sides.

But after the last few days, im happy to see a lot of progress. We talked more yesterday about therapy, whats working for us. Etc.

Were now just discussing video games, novels, all the normal stuff that brought us together in the first place.

Im not building hope or expectations yet. Hour by hour, day by day.

I will not let myself fall back to the bottom of the hill of recovery, if things go badly.
As i said in my last post. Forward is forward, and that path is just for me and my lad right now.
but I am starting to see her path becoming more clear through the treeline. They might converge.

I have had some unrelated family stressors that have messed up christmas plans, so there is much to do and take care of.

I. Feel. Good.
Mellow, calm, collected and unattached to an y specific result.

Happy Solstice and Holidays to you all.

Excelsior.

[SaltyDawg]

2-days in a row, that is a promising sign.
When she splits on you, how long does it last?  If it is hours, this is a good sign, however, if it is days -- keep your guard at maximum. 
Regardless of the circumstances, do not jump the gun, do keep your guard up, and do what is best for you and your son.

Seeing her on Xmas Eve, keep it BIFF.  Don't give it an opportunity to deteriorate.
I know you have overanalyzed the situation; so you have probably figured out her stressors too, avoid those, as you don't want to trigger her.  Observe if she is doing the same for you.

Don't go 'deep' on your conversation, keep it to small talk on the positive like you are doing and what brought you together in the first place.

Treat the 'feel good' feeling as a Christmas gift to you and your son.  Do some fun stuff with your son.  Make it memorable in a positive way.

Once the holidays are over, then ever so gently start moving, under the guidance of a 'high-conflict' couple's therapist towards any kind of reconciliation.  First thing to do is get mutually agreeable boundaries setup.  Then figure out what you are doing to trigger her, and if not too much trouble modify those behaviors.  If you can't think of anything, in front of the T, ask her, if the T doesn't do it.  Make little concessions, and there should be reciprocity [this is where I am in my journey] which will likely be a lot less than you want.  If you don't have a couple's T, get one, you will need it as my wife respects their decision, but not mine [yet].

Enjoy the 'Calm', make it last as self-care refresher.  Hopefully, it is not the calm before another storm.

Happy Holidays.

[OKrunch]

2-days in a row, that is a promising sign.
When she splits on you, how long does it last?  If it is hours, this is a good sign, however, if it is days -- keep your guard at maximum. 
Regardless of the circumstances, do not jump the gun, do keep your guard up, and do what is best for you and your son.

Seeing her on Xmas Eve, keep it BIFF.  Don't give it an opportunity to deteriorate.
I know you have overanalyzed the situation; so you have probably figured out her stressors too, avoid those, as you don't want to trigger her.  Observe if she is doing the same for you.

Don't go 'deep' on your conversation, keep it to small talk on the positive like you are doing and what brought you together in the first place.

Treat the 'feel good' feeling as a Christmas gift to you and your son.  Do some fun stuff with your son.  Make it memorable in a positive way.

Once the holidays are over, then ever so gently start moving, under the guidance of a 'high-conflict' couple's therapist towards any kind of reconciliation.  First thing to do is get mutually agreeable boundaries setup.  Then figure out what you are doing to trigger her, and if not too much trouble modify those behaviors.  If you can't think of anything, in front of the T, ask her, if the T doesn't do it.  Make little concessions, and there should be reciprocity [this is where I am in my journey] which will likely be a lot less than you want.  If you don't have a couple's T, get one, you will need it as my wife respects their decision, but not mine [yet].

Enjoy the 'Calm', make it last as self-care refresher.  Hopefully, it is not the calm before another storm.

Happy Holidays.

Her splits can last hours, to WEEKS. Although they seem to be lesser in duration that our last breakup.
im letting her pace the conversation. I don't want to overstep or come off as too rushed or needy.
She want's the kids to be able to talk on Messenger Kids.
Shes getting my son something for Christmas.

She is currently spamming me with pictures of our dogs.

[SaltyDawg]

Her splits can last hours, to WEEKS. Although they seem to be lesser in duration that our last breakup.
im letting her pace the conversation. I don't want to overstep or come off as too rushed or needy.

The gifts, the pictures, and kids messenger are re-establishing a bond to reduce her abandonment fears.

Sounds like you have a good plan, stick with it.  

In person contacts - f2f, or phone call, or video call can be problematic if you don't stick with your plan, and I seem to recall that as a potential issue for you.  Make sure that you are mentally prepared for that, as you are agreeing to that.  Keep it BIFF.

Edit to address the highlighted portion, I realized that I didn't finish as I was distracted by my children [poor excuse]:  Then you have to wait at least twice as long as her longest split to make sure that she is indeed turned around and is genuinely addressing issues in your relationship.  Also, definitely don't overstep, rush back in, or come off appearing needy.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS

note:  I will have a reduced presence for the next week, however, I will keep an eye on this thread, and respond when I can.

[Hamster411]

My Therapist's words -

"I feel like you handled that very well. You maintained very good control and set that boundary that you weren't going to fight. That is a great way to show action rather than just say things. The biggest thing that I am seeing is that she still blames you for everything and is not taking responsibility on her end. That is showing me that there isn't much in the way of progress on her end. So, with that being the case, this roller coaster is still going to follow the same patterns as before and she will continue to blame you for everything that goes wrong in her life, whether you guys are together or not. If you get back together, she will continue to point all these things out every time you guys argue. Keep that resolve because it is just going to be the same stuff ."

This is almost exactly what the therapist told me at the end of my relationship, and recommended that I walk away from it. She said no matter how much energy, how many skills I used on my end to not JADE or trigger, if SHE was not making the effort to embrace the treatment and genuinely want to change then the same patterns would continue over and over. It was up to me if I wanted to continue to remain on the emotional rollercoaster, and I decided I did not want to if things were not going to ever get better. In times like recently, when I do miss her, I try to remind myself of that. If the progress has not been made to contain this monster that is BPD then I cannot go down with the ship. I hope we both continue to find our way through this struggle.

[SaltyDawg]

Hamster,

   I agree with what the Therapists have said. 

   I personally believe the key is to get the pwBPD to become 'self-aware,' and if they have a moral conscience then they can actually start working on it.  Without self-awareness AND a moral compass, there is no hope.  And, even if they are self-aware, they need to do the work to get themselves better.  My pwBPD has been doing this for the past two months [she is partially self aware on her anger management issues; however, she is in denial of BPD and her T is using CBT and other therapies] now out of a 22 year relationship.  And even now, I am unsure if it is going to work; however, there is slow progress being made and it is looking better each week - we will see how the holidays go, and re-evaluate again.  I am hopeful; however, I am proceeding with my eyes wide open.  I know there will be some setbacks, and there has, after all it took 2 decades to get here, it is going to take some time to get better. 

   As long as progress is being made, I will stay by my pwBPD's side.  However, if they couldn't become self-aware, then I would likely considering separating -- I am glad that I am not there yet.  For a pwBPD to become self-aware, and actively work on themselves is ultra-rare.  It took two months after her becoming self-aware where I am really getting enough hope that it is for real; however, it is still to early to tell, but my 'gut feeling' tells me it is real.

   OKrunch's pwBPD, has finally made herself 'self-aware' a couple of days ago, and for the first time didn't blame him for everything, she took some ownership -- this is big; however, only time will tell if it is for real, or if it is a continuation of the push-pull trauma bonded relationship cycle. 

   I am documenting the progress here, and if successful, I might write a book on it , as I haven't really come across any literature for a BPD intervention [not recommended, but I needed to force the issue due to ongoing emotional damage occurring to our children].

   Wish and pray for OKrunch, myself, and all those who are going through this struggle.

SD

[OKrunch]

Things continued to improve, and yesterday midday we had a long phone chat. She brought up a lot of past hurts, and although she is no longer angry, she is still pretty adamant on not seeing each other in person. That conversation got a bit heavy, despite my efforts to keep the convo casual. Later in the day the convo warmed up again, and earlier today was much the same. She seems to be pulling away again now. her mood and opinions have been fluctuating back and forth.i had a decent feeling we might actually hang out later tonight.
I don't think that's going to happen now. My day tomorrow is full of errands and favors for other people. Not likely to be a very fun day.
She ended up in a sad, "I used to be prettier" mood yesterday.


I feel like I messed up somewhere yesterday or today. Kinda bummed out. I'm still matching her energy. I'm not going to over extend myself.
Feeling very alone right now.

Our kids have been talking on messenger.

[waverider]

.Has Christmas brought on any additional crisis, or is everything much the same ?

[SaltyDawg]

Things continued to improve, and yesterday midday we had a long phone chat. She brought up a lot of past hurts, and although she is no longer angry, she is still pretty adamant on not seeing each other in person. That conversation got a bit heavy, despite my efforts to keep the convo casual. Later in the day the convo warmed up again, and earlier today was much the same. She seems to be pulling away again now. her mood and opinions have been fluctuating back and forth.i had a decent feeling we might actually hang out later tonight.
I don't think that's going to happen now. My day tomorrow is full of errands and favors for other people. Not likely to be a very fun day.
She ended up in a sad, "I used to be prettier" mood yesterday.

I am a 3rd person, giving my 2 cents worth from your perspective alone having gone through something similar, but not as severe [separated in under the same roof].

Right now, she is probably conflicted in her emotions.  It's good that she is communicating 'a lot of past hurts'.  She is vocalizing how she is hurting, and probably recognizes that she hurt you too [if she is becoming self-aware].  You need to remember if she is a 'borderline'; her emotions are going to be multiplied on what you felt.  If she is expressing how you hurt her, and she is articulating why -- even if it only has a 'nugget' of truth, acknowledge that 'nugget', you need to validate her that she is having that emotion [even if it exaggerated from your perspective] by saying 'I can see how you feel, [if that part is valid, then add] I apologize for what I said, or did [without being too specific, since in your mind you are apologizing for the nugget -- if she presses, then TACTFULLY tell her about the 'nugget'].

Do listen carefully, and if she is hinting, or telling you that you need to change -- figure out what that 'change' is, and if it isn't too much effort for you, then do it, even if it makes no logical sense.  I know with my wife, she wanted me to stop needling her with pin pricks [sarcastic comments that others would laugh at, even though she was guilty of the very same thing to me] that would/could possibly irritate a normal person, but set off a borderline into a rage - it was my way of getting back at her after she attacked me.  I had to let go of my hard feelings, and feelings of resentment, and stop my sarcasm. 

Also, keep in mind today is Christmas Day, it is a day that families typically get together, and you are not physically present.  People who fear abandonment, it is especially hard for them on this day [you have your own fears, and it may likely be related to 'codependency' check with your therapist on this] -- she may be feeling very similar to you, but doesn't want the 'hurt' that goes along with it -- just as you don't want the 'hurt'.  This might be her way of not feeling abandoned.  However, if the 'self-realization' is still there that she has hurt you, if and when you talk to her today, make sure that that is still there, and gently express how you feel using "I" pronouns only.  Do not use the words 'you', 'but', or 'because' in expressing how you feel.  Both of you need to process, and acknowlege each others 'hurts'.


I feel like I messed up somewhere yesterday or today. Kinda bummed out. I'm still matching her energy. I'm not going to over extend myself.
Feeling very alone right now.

No doubt that you are feeling very alone right now.  However, don't be clingy and 'over extend' yourself, give her the space [don't call, but do send a short text wishing her 'Merry Christmas' - that way she knows you are thinking about her, and not forgetting about her, and she will call you when she is ready], don't smother the spark that you have had for the past few days, but don't let it go out either.  You know her the best, so you need to be sensitive to her emotions if you want to reconnect, and like her emotions towards you have changed, your emotions towards her must also stay changed to the 'kinder, gentler' you that have been forced to become.


Our kids have been talking on messenger.

Borderline women want to go the extra mile for their children, especially if they know they are messed up consciously or unconsciously.  Mine gives them way too many gifts, and showers them with attention when she is not splitting.  Also, my exBPD/NPDgf from the late 1990's also used this technique on me with her son to get me to stay when she was trying to h-o-o-v-e-r me back in.

Do be close enough to listen in and monitor the conversation, but not in his face as he needs to perceive that you are not listening in [kind of like taking photos, if they see your phone out to take pictures, mine would often not play nice, or have freakish poses, when you wanted to capture the spontaneity of them playing without you noticing.  Listen to what the kids are talking about, especially if it deals with you and her.  Children, often project what their parents are feeling, unfiltered, so you can gain some additional intel on the true status of your relationship by listening in to the seemingly innocent observations of the little ones.  If your son has said something about you that isn't quite right, figure out a way to communicate that with him in a 'teaching moment' not related to the video chat.  Under no circumstances, write your son's script, let it flow out naturally.  They are likely to talk about games, and fun stuff, or off topic stuff 99% of the time, you need to listen for that 1%.  What you hear may hurt, or may be comforting - don't act on it; however, use it a small puzzle piece, when building your navigational map on how to maneuver in your relationship with her.


Sorry for getting a bit too deep on this; but, that is how I would handle myself, if I were in your shoes.  It is Christmas, Happy Holidays.

[OKrunch]

Things are still going good. We've talked a few times since my last post. A lot has just been casual conversation, she was the one to initiate conversation today. It's just a slow burn for now. I was getting anxious before because she didn't answer me, which is honestly something I need to work on considering my attachment behaviors. Anxious this does not make me a good decisions. She just fall asleep wrapping Christmas presents, and got back to me in the morning. I was able to really focus on what I was doing and where I was being present, today spending time with my friends. Helping my best friend hang some shelves in his freshman for the computer room. It was nice together with the guys and get the project done. I'm starting to feel normal again. I'm even still comfortable if the conversations that we are having don't go in as much of a productive area as I would probably like. I feel like the conversations we have had have provided closure if nothing else, but it's absolutely going in the right direction in my opinion.

[OKrunch]

She told me today she was going to ask me to come over and chill last night, but didnt want her daughter hearing me or getting confused at my presence. It was nice to know she wanted to spend time with me. this is a huge step.

[SaltyDawg]

Sounds good, just chill, relax, take it nice and slow, let her do it at a pace that's comfortable to her.

Baby steps.

[OKrunch]

Just wanted to come in and drop an update before I took some time off to just do my thing and focus on my kid. Conversation between her and I has been pretty good over the past week or so. There have been a few times where we have discussed even hanging out, there's definitely still some hot and cold though. There are times where she just kind of doesn't answer for a while, but I don't overdo it and send too many texts I just wait for her to get back to me when she's not busy.  It's just hard to be having a pleasant conversation, but still feel like I'm kept at arm's length because we still haven't hung out.



We have had more conversations where she has made a lot of really constructive self-aware statements. She said she's cautious because she doesn't want to do this to me again oh, she has talked about dysregulation and spiraling into depressive episodes. She has talked about defense mechanisms and pushing people away. Honestly the only key word that she has not herself mentioned is the word splitting. She is very clearly doing some introspective work, and I do not want to complicate that by being overly needy or anxious. That being said, it has been tough because the more we talk and the more that we are friendly and talk about the possibility of hanging out, the more my anxious mindset wants to get me to obsessively think over it. It has taken some conscious effort on my end to keep that sort of thing in a reasonable place. The few times I have tried to be a little bit flirty, she has not shied away from it, but she has not really jumped in and participated either. I have stepped back from doing that.



Another thing she has discussed is her inability to let go of grudges. Not even specifically regarding me, but with her father's daughter and members of her family as well. I know that she fears that she's never going to be able to truly let go of some of the things from our past that she is hung up on.



So we have a lot of progress, and there are still definitely some roadblocks to overcome.



  I have my first therapy session in over a week this evening, I have not spoken with my therapist very much since her and I started talking as much as we have been so I am very interested to discuss things with her today and see what the best course of action is. At this point I'm really just wondering what the best methods I have to rebuild trust, attraction, desire. She has been pretty reserved about mentioning it, but several things she has done or said has definitely let me know that she misses me. On the other hand, I still don't know if she's trying to talk to anyone else. I still don't know if she is fighting her feelings for me. There are a lot of unknown factors here.



I just guess I have to keep doing what I've been doing. Making sure she knows I'm hearing her, making sure she knows that her feelings are validated. I have been very clear about the fact that I'm not trying to move back in and I'm not trying to pretend like nothing ever happened. I have mentioned that anything that happens in the future is going to be a new book, not just a new chapter of the same book from before. That being said I try to keep the serious topics to a minimum, because at the end of the day, I miss my best friend.



Playing the slow game is hard, especially when I know how much I love this woman. I'm so proud of the development I have seen in myself and her. Just have to keep reminding myself it's a marathon not a Sprint.



Any advice anyone has on correctly retracting I'd be happy to hear your input. I hope everyone here had a wonderful holiday, you are all such a supportive wonderful amazing group of people.



I will check back in after New Year's, unless something monumentous happens. I'm heading up to spend the weekend with my son at my parents the day after tomorrow and I'm really looking forward to it

[SaltyDawg]

What did your therapist say?

Awesome, please be sure to give her the space she needs, to process what she has done, she is clearly doing stuff with a therapist, let that process work.  It sounds like, it has been excellent progress, however, it will take time for her to come around.


Even if she is not calling it a splitting episode, she is still calling it an episode.  Don't get stuck on the details, if the process is working.

I know you want to reconnect at the speed that you first met her with, I know the feeling all too well, however when needs to be patient in this particular scenario, do not suffocate her with your own feelings and issues, she is probably not able to process it right now.

Regarding the grudges, she needs to forgive you, even though my therapist is to forget it, it's impossible to do that.  I found that one my wife was flooding, and are raging, and I would retaliate with similar type words back, for a fraction of the time, she helps a scratches against me when she becomes normal baseline again, it sucks as it is a bit of a double standard.

Do talk to your therapist, and see what they say.

When you get a chance, if you could share what your therapist said would be greatly appreciated.

Please be as patient as you can possibly be with her, let her figure things out, don't give her any more ammunition against you than you've already done, let things play out as she processes what she has done.

Do provid her with constructive feedback only using 'I' pronouns only if she asks for it in your conversations with her. Do not rush getting back together face-to-face, as she does not have the safety net of hanging up her phone if things become heated.

[OKrunch]

What did your therapist say?

Awesome, please be sure to give her the space she needs, to process what she has done, she is clearly doing stuff with a therapist, let that process work.  It sounds like, it has been excellent progress, however, it will take time for her to come around.


Even if she is not calling it a splitting episode, she is still calling it an episode.  Don't get stuck on the details, if the process is working.

I know you want to reconnect at the speed that you first met her with, I know the feeling all too well, however when needs to be patient in this particular scenario, do not suffocate her with your own feelings and issues, she is probably not able to process it right now.

Regarding the grudges, she needs to forgive you, even though my therapist is to forget it, it's impossible to do that.  I found that one my wife was flooding, and are raging, and I would retaliate with similar type words back, for a fraction of the time, she helps a scratches against me when she becomes normal baseline again, it sucks as it is a bit of a double standard.

Do talk to your therapist, and see what they say.

When you get a chance, if you could share what your therapist said would be greatly appreciated.

Please be as patient as you can possibly be with her, let her figure things out, don't give her any more ammunition against you than you've already done, let things play out as she processes what she has done.

Do provid her with constructive feedback only using 'I' pronouns only if she asks for it in your conversations with her. Do not rush getting back together face-to-face, as she does not have the safety net of hanging up her phone if things become heated.

My therapist was excited for the news, and told me about how this is showing my work with boundaries, validating communication and patience. She is definitely doing work with the therapist, and doing a lot of reading on her own. Lots of stoicism.
Reconnecting at the same speed as before is a doom, if that happens this will fail. Patience, and calm is the key here I agree.
We already did the instant reconnect and it blew up in our face once. Wont be doing that again.

I agree about the grudges, itll be the hardest thing to overcome. She is already making steps. She has said that some of the things are petty, but she still has hard feelings about them. It'll come with time and more validating conversation.

My therapist is very realistic, she has told me it will take sacrifice on my part to make this work. She has said that my EX has a good heart, and that she is a perfect example of what trauma can do to a good person. She is good at keeping me realistic, cautious and not getting myself too excited or hopeful.
When I began telling my therapist some of the things my ex has said in the last week, she was visibly excited. She sees real development here, and said its clear she is focused on her recovery. All good news. She congratulated me on the progress and basically told me to keep up doing what I've been doing.

So she did end up stopping by and hang out for a little bit yesterday. We just hung out and caught up, laughed and talked.  Things were all pretty casual up until the last like 5 minutes. She then told me that she still needed space and time to figure things out for herself. She said she needs to get her routines in order. She mentioned that we've been texting a bit much lately, and literally asked me to let her kind of pace the conversations. She did also say "it feels like im doing something im not supposed to by being here". She mentioned she has a tendency to become obsessed with the relationship. She wants to focus on her stuff and getting where she needs to meet which I am in full support of. I said that I would like the opportunity someday to take her on a legit date. Literally start fresh. Her response to that was please wait until I let you know that I'm comfortable with that.  To which I agreed. She texted me this morning and thanked me for being able to talk about these things in person. She said it meant a lot. I told her it meant a lot to me as well.

I got a big hug when she left last night.

[SaltyDawg]

That is awesome news.

Don't rush things. Let her set the pace, on everything.

Definitely do not get too excited or hopeful, keep your expectations low, that way if they are exceeded you will be pleasantly surprised.

There will be good days and bad days ahead. I'm in the middle of a bad day with my wife right now and she is splitting me black today after a month of excellent behavior [for her], so there are setbacks, hopefully tomorrow will be a better day.  At least she didn't rage when I reflected back to her that she was treating me badly. Other than accusing me of saying that I am the eternal victim.

Let her set the pace, at what she is comfortable with.

Even though I'm having a bad day with my wife, I am very happy for you that you're having an awesome day with yours.

[OKrunch]

Okay so time for an update. Things have been going well. We have been communicating everyday. We had talked about spending some time together on Monday night. Monday evening rolled around and she originally told me that she had put a lot of thought into it, and decided it still wasn't a good idea to hang out. She then texted me about a half an hour later and said that she thought she was being overly cautious and paranoid oh, and then she did want to hang out. I got some food and went over and we spent some time watching a movie and having our dinner. I got to spend a lot of time with my dogs and it was wonderful. Throughout the night things got more relaxed and casual. Eventually we had some cuddling type contact on the couch while watching the movie. We ended up getting intimate that night. Communication has still been good since, we have established some expectations and boundaries.



She is still saying she's focused on herself. Her growth and her development. Which is exactly what needs to be going on. All of our conversation so far since has been pretty casual and flirty.



Today I reassured her that I didn't want her to feel pressured, and just wanted to be able to be myself when communicating with her in regards to how often I am flirty or say affectionate things.



She replied as follows " I understand and I do appreciate it. As you know, I am still trying to focus inwardly. I'm afraid too much affection with someone that I have a history that is both intense and tense would not help me progress in the way that I want to"



I responded by saying " I understand, I do not want you to lose the traction of your forward Focus. Obviously you know that, long-term, I would like to make this work. As I have said, I want you to be comfortable and confident through any interactions we have.



Just know that even if I am saying affectionate or flirty things, I do understand where things are at and where your focus is. Obviously it would be wonderful to hear you say things like that you love me and that you miss me, but I know that will come when the time is right. I am here for you no matter what"

________________________________________________

honestly the only thing that really concerns me right now is if she were to start talking with another guy. I do not believe that that is the case, I don't think that that is happening. I know I'm probably nitpicking, I guess the only thing that  kind of scared me with her statement was when she said " too much affection with someone that I have a history with"

I have not outright ask her if she is talking to or seeing anyone else. I'm confident that she would tell me  if that was the case, but obviously it is still something that I worry about.



There has been nothing but improvement over the last few weeks so I'm not complaining. I did not think things were going to get physical or intimate at all on Monday night, and they did. I went into that with zero expectations and I let her lead the way. That is what I will continue to do. I know that she is holding things in reserve. I'm sure she has emotions that she is trying to hold back. She has told me before that she is afraid of becoming too wrapped up in a relationship and having it stifle the progress she is making herself. So rather than worrying about somebody else in the picture, I need to realize that she's just making sure that she has the tools she needs to be the best she can be. I understand her focus and it is the right thing. Being patient after seeing her and being intimate again is proving to be quite difficult, but I suppose there's a new challenge every day.

[SaltyDawg]

Throughout the night things got more relaxed and casual. Eventually we had some cuddling type contact on the couch while watching the movie. We ended up getting intimate that night. Communication has still been good since, we have established some expectations and boundaries.
Things are moving at light speed is advised.  Definitely talk to your T about this.



She replied as follows " I understand and I do appreciate it. As you know, I am still trying to focus inwardly. I'm afraid too much affection with someone that I have a history that is both intense and tense would not help me progress in the way that I want to"
This is the reason why is advised.  You might be overwhelming her and she might get cold feet really fast.  Do find out what kind of 'progress' she is wanting.


honestly the only thing that really concerns me right now is if she were to start talking with another guy. I do not believe that that is the case, I don't think that that is happening. I know I'm probably nitpicking, I guess the only thing that  kind of scared me with her statement was when she said " too much affection with someone that I have a history with"

I have not outright ask her if she is talking to or seeing anyone else. I'm confident that she would tell me  if that was the case, but obviously it is still something that I worry about.
Those thoughts of yours might be ANTs [automatic negative thoughts].  You have already indicated it is unlikely for her to do that.  Especially in light of your intimacy earlier [albeit too fast], and you are confident that she would tell you if that were the case.  However, I do understand your reasoning based on what you shared with your first post in this thread.


There has been nothing but improvement over the last few weeks so I'm not complaining. I did not think things were going to get physical or intimate at all on Monday night, and they did. I went into that with zero expectations and I let her lead the way. That is what I will continue to do. I know that she is holding things in reserve. I'm sure she has emotions that she is trying to hold back. She has told me before that she is afraid of becoming too wrapped up in a relationship and having it stifle the progress she is making herself. So rather than worrying about somebody else in the picture, I need to realize that she's just making sure that she has the tools she needs to be the best she can be. I understand her focus and it is the right thing. Being patient after seeing her and being intimate again is proving to be quite difficult, but I suppose there's a new challenge every day.

Sounds like a 'grand-slam' home run.  Enjoy it.  Let her be in the driver's seat and let her lead the way.

I am really really happy for you.

I don't want to be a 'downer', but...

However, just 'keeping it real.'  Don't let your guard down.  The typical borderline relationship cycle is this:

love bomb --> devalue --> discard --> recycle [repeat]

It is important to break this cycle, and stay in the 'love bomb' portion, and not get to the next devalue stage.  Just look at your first post in this thread where you have already documented this cycle.  Does this one feel different?  Just trying to keep you focused.

I've been reading a book recommended by someone who is in a similar situation to ours [about halfway through reading it], she is using the tools in that book to attempt to break the cycle.  It has a religious slant to it and was originally written in 1986; however, I feel that it may be helpful in preventing the devalue and subsequent phases if followed [a 15 hour per week commitment]. 

"His Needs, Her Needs: Building a Marriage That Lasts" by Willard F. Jr. Harley

Good luck, but keep it real, definitely don't rush, and let her sort out things.  You also need to sort out your feelings and ensure that both of you are on the same page.

Take care, and HAPPY NEW YEAR!

[OKrunch]

We hung out again last night, this was a lot more low key. Just cuddles on the couch with the dogs, and we fell asleep together on the couch.

Salty, this does not feel like love bombing at all. She has been pretty reserved with her words, has mentioned not wanting me to get false ideas that were getting totally back together. On the other hand, Monday she said "this probably wont happen again for a while" in regards to hanging out, but we hung out last night. She said she felt very relaxed, at ease and did a lot of unwinding last night.

Prior to hanging out she did mention that "we cant put the cart before the horse" to which i replied, "the cart is still at the wainwright." she chuckled and agreed, we both are still working on ourselves.

The biggest hurdle it seems to me right now is that she doesn't want family and friends to know were hanging out.
We have broken up twice, and she has had friends advise against the relationship before, because we used to fight so much.
So I am afraid that she will ultimately decide that despite both of our feelings, she cannot get back with me due to social pressures or how she might be perceived by others. It is obviously a complicated situation with a lot of messy history, but I, as i always have, believe in the good outweighing the bad, and that we can rise above our past, our disagreements and truly choose each other for life.

Still a long long road ahead, but I am very pleased with where things seem to be going.
That said, I am very aware that this could all fizzle out, that this may not be what is fated.
I keep my guard up in this regard at all times.

[SaltyDawg]

We hung out again last night, this was a lot more low key. Just cuddles on the couch with the dogs, and we fell asleep together on the couch.
Good deposits in each other's love bank. 


Salty, this does not feel like love bombing at all.
I'm glad that your gut feeling tells you that it is not love bombing.


She has been pretty reserved with her words, has mentioned not wanting me to get false ideas that were getting totally back together.

It would appear that she is testing the waters yet once again, and is unsure if she wants to get back together with you.  She is just letting you know if you cannot satisfy her emotionally, she will leave, and she's giving you advance to warning.  However, if you keep on making deposits into her love bank, this will become less and less. However, if you unintentionally withdraw from that love bank by doing something stupid or something she doesn't like inadvertently, she is leaving the option of leaving you open. 

Yes, this is a form of 'walking on eggshells'. However until the situation stabilizes, you need to be on Best Behavior. And I'm also going to suggest due to the sensitive nature of borderlines where their emotional states are heightened, you will need to practice some form of walking on eggshells that you can accept, by changing the way you walk to something that will not crush the eggshells as readily by being on best behavior for the foreseeable future.



Prior to hanging out she did mention that "we cant put the cart before the horse" to which i replied, "the cart is still at the wainwright." she chuckled and agreed, we both are still working on ourselves.

It sounds like both of you are keeping a good perspective on this. Don't let your expectations get too high, otherwise it will be a 'planned disappointment'.

The biggest hurdle it seems to me right now is that she doesn't want family and friends to know were hanging out.

That is understandable. As she has broken up with you twice previously. So her friends may start to wonder about her emotional stability with you if they see that you are back in her life, again.  My suggestion is to you - Keep it low key, let her set the pace, and do no pressure.


So I am afraid that she will ultimately decide that despite both of our feelings, she cannot get back with me due to social pressures or how she might be perceived by others.

I can stand understand pressures from family being rather excessive and can destroy a relationship. However I believe friends would have less influence, unless you specifically know otherwise - you know your particular situation best. Therefore, I was a just thinking of in analogy with this being a baseball game, you have two strikes, and you don't want to strike out.  She is obviously testing the waters once again, and if it fails this time, with strike three, you're out.


Still a long long road ahead, but I am very pleased with where things seem to be going.
That said, I am very aware that this could all fizzle out, that this may not be what is fated.
I keep my guard up in this regard at all times.

I'm very happy for you; however, please be aware that there will likely be setbacks. It is the degree of the setback that will determine if the relationship is to survive. It is also how the setbacks or disagreements work and how you and her both handle it will also determine how the relationship will move forward.

In my own particular situation, i've already have the feeling that it needs to be about 2 years of relative peace before I will even begin to consider letting my guard down and of course that will be based upon my feelings on how the relationship has been progressing.  During the holidays there were two minor setbacks, however, I'm keeping track of the dates on each of those, one was somewhat significant with domestic violence a punch the other was a medium with a major splitting me black incident.  My individual therapist seems to think that these are acts of self-sabotage which is a trait of the borderline when things are getting better, or 'too good'. 

If you are aware of these potential acts of self-sabotage then you can plan for them, and not get angry when they do happen.  I personally believe this is a form of radical acceptance, a DBT skill.  If and when these setbacks do occur, please do not get angry, coolly point out the boundary that she has crossed one time while 'in the act,' wait till she is baseline, and then discuss it with or without a couple's therapist.  In order for a relationship to survive emotional abuse or other abuse needs to stop, and mutual respect should be established. If you let her walk over you you will lose her respect, if you come on too strong you will lose her respect, you need to find the sweet spot in between, and that is where a therapist can help you out, and that is where respect will be developed.

Please do make and set boundaries, and maintain those boundaries. The boundaries I have set are no violence either physical or emotional as a prerequisite for continuing in my relationship with my wife.

In any event, a good mantra to follow is 'hope and pray for the best, but prepare for the worst.'

good luck and take care.

[OKrunch]

Well, one of my fears has been realized.
She is at least dating other people.

I got told she was going home to fold laundry. A friend told me she had someone over the house after he had driven by. ( I did not ask for this info, he just texted me asking if I knew if she was seeing someone, it was late at night and a car was still there)

She had a dating profile months back, so its not a huge surprise.
It's just hard because she hasn't mentioned seeing other people, in fact she said she wasn't. "I'm not doing the rebound thing this time around"

Not much I can do, but It still makes the personal progress we've made feel...watered down.
I don't know if this is the first time in a while, or has been a consistent thing for her.

It makes me feel like a backup plan. We had talked about seeing eachother tonight. She chose to see someone else.

Feeling defeated right now, but not the spiraling depressing on anxious mess I would have been finding out this information 2 months ago. So theres that I guess.

[SaltyDawg]

Well, one of my fears has been realized.
She is at least dating other people.
Make sure this isn't an ANT (Automatic Negative Thought)

I got told she was going home to fold laundry. A friend told me she had someone over the house after he had driven by. ( I did not ask for this info, he just texted me asking if I knew if she was seeing someone, it was late at night and a car was still there)
It could be a girlfriend who is helping her sort out feelings or just visiting.  You don't know who that 'someone' is.

She had a dating profile months back, so its not a huge surprise.
It's just hard because she hasn't mentioned seeing other people, in fact she said she wasn't. "I'm not doing the rebound thing this time around"
Make sure it not ANTs.

Not much I can do, but It still makes the personal progress we've made feel...watered down.
I don't know if this is the first time in a while, or has been a consistent thing for her.
More ANTs.

It makes me feel like a backup plan. We had talked about seeing eachother tonight. She chose to see someone else.
Could be, could be a girlfriend, who knows.  Wait and see what happens in the upcoming days.

Feeling defeated right now, but not the spiraling depressing on anxious mess I would have been finding out this information 2 months ago. So theres that I guess.
Definitely try not to spiral, use some coping mechanisms if you have those.  Do call up your T, and talk to your T about your feelings.  You are emotionally sensitive then, and now too.

Take care of yourself.

[OKrunch]

Salty,

She has one friend she hangs out with. One.

It wasn't a supportive girlfriend buddy.

I'm doing alright, but I'm 99.99% sure that the guest was what I think it was.

I'm a bit shell shocked, but I'm just going to keep this info under my collar and keep moving forward

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   Talk to your T, sort out your feelings, and move forward.

   Make sure you do a lot of 'self-care' and take care of yourself.

   I strongly suggest making a list of pros / cons on this relationship.  Also, make a list of questions for your T, so it goes a lot faster and you can cover more ground the next time you see your T.

   I am assuming that she did not tell you she was exclusive, yet with you, and I know that hurts if what you say is true.  Does she live in an apartment building, neighborhood, or rural location.  If it is the first two, it could be that the car was parked there temporarily and visiting another unit/house, if rural, that would be more impactful.

   Take care.

[OKrunch]

She has not told me she's exclusive, the closest to that was me telling her I fear losing her to someone else, early in the breakup.

I'm already planning my next T sessions contents.

The house is quite rural. We lived out in the woods in a small neighborhood.

Will update after T session on Wednesday.

[SaltyDawg]

Okay, look forward to your update then.

Until then, take care.

[OKrunch]

I need to step back and see if she follows. I'm way too anxious over this whole situation. She lied to me twice about this person. I think I just need to have a conversation with her and ask him if she seen somebody else and give her an opportunity to actually tell me about this. I don't want to play second fiddle and I'm not.  going to be strung along

[Outdorenthusiast]

I need to step back and see if she follows. I'm way too anxious over this whole situation. She lied to me twice about this person. I think I just need to have a conversation with her and ask him if she seen somebody else and give her an opportunity to actually tell me about this. I don't want to play second fiddle and I'm not.  going to be strung along

Be careful - Confrontation will get a negative response - so be smart in your approach.  An ultimatum will trigger an abandonment fear, and an accusation will paint you as an aggressive persecutor and she the victim.  Both will blow up. 

Use “I” statements. Eg;  “I value having an exclusive relationship with someone, I know for myself this is what I need to feel happy and secure.  I don’t know how you feel…”

I would recommend to stay away from the comments of “Someone saw a car parked at your house…” as this will come off as creepy/stalking or invasion of privacy.  It seems she never indicated you would be exclusive - so this is likely her right, and her house.  This should be more about you and what you feel and want to be happy.  If she feels different, then as painful as it will feel - your paths should be separate to keep you happy and follow your core values.  You only can control your own actions not hers.

Also - if she reacts negatively, acknowledge and validate her feelings - don’t try to change them.  It is ok to validate her feelings and still speak your truth. Use the S.E.T. technique as the emotions are bound to run high.

Good luck

[OKrunch]

I plan to just sit in the info for a few days. I need to digest all of this.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

Definitely do not do anything until you have talked to your T.

Outdoorenthusiast makes some excellent points on this.  You don't want to appear as though you are stalking, and using the "I" pronouns & SET method are excellent suggestions on this.

Definitely do not confront or use criticism as that builds resentment and contempt which are relationship killers.

If there is 'another man' beyond a reasonable doubt don't be second fiddle, you deserve better than that.  I also know it will hurt, make a plan now, on how to do some major self care [treat yourself to a nice weekend trip, to get away from it all].

I am in my 2nd dog and pony show for borderline women, my previous relationship was with a uBPD/NPDexgf, and she was 'playing the field' so to speak.  I left, only to fall into the arms of a uBPD person who would eventually become my wife 22 years ago.  If you do decide to go the route I did, make sure you don't fall into the same/similar situation I did.  Learn the signs of the borderline, to avoid being entrapped again.  Borderlines are attracted to the codependent enabler types like moths to a flame, or is it vice versa, whatever it is, be on the lookout.

Take care, and I look forward to your update on Wednesday evening.

[OKrunch]

I moved my T appointment to 330 est today.

[SaltyDawg]

How did it go?

[OKrunch]

Therapy session went pretty good. Although it was a very anger-inducing session for me. I guess I needed to process frustration.

We have had no discussion about being exclusive. I am frustrated because there are several situations where she could have told me that she was seeing someone else but I can see that she's definitely scared to do that. I have not directly asked, and that's a question I would only ask in a face-to-face conversation.
My therapist asked me some hard questions like would I ever be able to truly trust her.
She also asked if this is a cycle I'm willing to rent and repeat through a life.
I said that I would be able to trust her, we have had very good trust in the past. She is not a cheater, however she is quick to get into new relationships after breakups.
I said that this is not a cycle I'm willing to repeat. If things cannot be figured out this time around, I have to be done.

After my therapy session yesterday. And a day where I only responded to her text, I was not the one to reach out. She called me at about 6:00 and offered for me to come over for dinner. I did so, we had a nice chat and a meal. Again, we were romantically intimate but did not actually have sex. The difference being this time, I really felt a lot of romantic energy from her in the way that she was interacting with me last night. Conversely, when she was talking about something and wanted to bring something up on her phone she immediately was like oh let's see if I can put this on the tv. And then couldn't, so she very much switched her entire body position so her phone was facing back side to me. She did not want me to see her phone.

Which brings me to the topic of another guy. I'm pretty certain at this point that that is definitely the case. Like 99%.
She mentioned last night that she's so much enjoys having me to talk to. This seems to harken back to comments she has made about her finding other guys boring in comparison to me. This was also the case during our first breakup.

So it basically seems like to me that she goes into a depressive episode and disassociates me, painting me black. She goes through a period where she does not want to be with me, and then eventually snaps and breaks up with me and kicks me out. This is the pattern that has happened twice. Once she begins to come out of her disassociative period, she starts to remember all the reasons that she loves me. Both times it seems as though she realized this this after starting to date someone else. This time around she is not gone public with the new relationship so she's a bit safer in that regard. Then she gets to a point where she starts to have feelings for me
And regretting the breakup. I have a fair expectation, although I'm not banking on this, that yet again I'm going to be the one she ends up wanting to be with. The difference this time is therapy, we are both doing it, and it's the only real hope that we have to make sure that this is the end of the cycle if we get back together again.

All that being said, my game plan is certainly changed. Her and I have plans to hang out this coming weekend. We have not solidified a date and time yet. I am pulling back on how often I'm reaching out to her. I'm only responding when she reaches out to me. That is something I have been doing before and I got sloppy about it. If she flakes on our plans this weekend and goes out of communication, I'm backing off entirely. This will be a very decisive few days for our situation. Depending on how things go, I plan on asking her if she's seeing somebody else. I would probably do that on Monday or tuesday.
I just can't handle the idea of being a competitive suitor vying for her attention.
I will not be a backup plan.

So, that is my current status and plan.

[SaltyDawg]

"Therapy session went pretty good. Although it was a very anger-inducing session for me. I guess I needed to process frustration."
In the context of this scenario, the emotion of "anger" is good thing.  You need to process what is happening to you which makes you angry, and grow from it.  Channel your anger into construction, not destruction.

"My therapist asked me some hard questions like would I ever be able to truly trust her."
This is a legitimate question.  I know you have already done a lot of soul searching on this one, and you will likely have to do a lot more soul searching on it.

"She also asked if this is a cycle I'm willing to rent and repeat through a life."
This is the million dollar question.  I feel as though you are going through a variation of the cycle I mentioned a few posts back.  I know somebody who has been through +/- 35-40 of these cycles, it doesn't get any easier.  Think long and hard, with a lot of soul searching and prayer, if you aren't able to break this cycle if you want to rinse and repeat it again?

"I said that I would be able to trust her, we have had very good trust in the past. She is not a cheater, however she is quick to get into new relationships after breakups."
That is a big to me.  Proceed with utmost caution, keep an eye out for .

I said that this is not a cycle I'm willing to repeat. If things cannot be figured out this time around, I have to be done.
That is what you are saying 'now'; ask your T, at your next session, to 'b**** slap' some sense into you the next time it happens.  Watching the person with 35-40 of these cycles, it is like watching a train wreck over and over and over again - like groundhog day, the movie, or the Disney movie spin off on Christmas of that theme.

"I did so, we had a nice chat and a meal. Again, we were romantically intimate but did not actually have sex. The difference being this time, I really felt a lot of romantic energy from her in the way that she was interacting with me last night."
Borderline feelings are quite intense, it's all or nothing, so you are being painted white, for the moment.  If I were you, (my personal opinion is likely different from yours) express your desire to be exclusive if she is taking you to bed with her, as you don't want to be second-fiddle.

"Conversely, when she was talking about something and wanted to bring something up on her phone she immediately was like oh let's see if I can put this on the tv. And then couldn't, so she very much switched her entire body position so her phone was facing back side to me. She did not want me to see her phone." 
, but if you want a relationship with her, you need to ignore the with the DBT skill 'radical acceptance,' and only deal with the which are deal breakers for you.

Regarding the "other guy".  Just be better than him if you want a relationship with her.  Before you have intimate relations with her again, say something along the lines of "I really want to please you, and I want to be pleased too.  I would love to know when you plan on sharing our relationship with your friends, again, as I would love to be part of your life."  [implying that you want exclusivity and be part of her world]

Regarding weekend plans.  Don't be too passive [this sounds like your plan], but don't be too aggressive either.  I would suggest, if you haven't heard anything by Thursday on it, casually ask her in a text "I would love to spend time with you this weekend, do you have a time in mind so I can adjust my plans accordingly]".  Be vague on the other plans, hint that you may have other plans [even if you don't, or if it is just watching TV], it will make her wonder, and by nature you will become more appealing to her.

"This will be a very decisive few days for our situation."
Agreed.


"I plan on asking her if she's seeing somebody else. I would probably do that on Monday or tuesday."
This is a bit more critical, being critical is a big turn-off.  Do it more subtly.  If you get a negative response of her letting others know that you have reconnected, then gently make the following statement along the lines of "[insert endearing pet name here like 'sweetheart'], I feel as though I am not that important enough to you to let your friends know about us, again, yet since we are in bed together, I would love to have an exclusive relationship with you.  What do you think about that?"

If she answers that question in the negative, then escalate a little more.

"I would like to know why?"

Let her answer, if you don't like her answer, then...

"I feel as though we are not exclusive, and that is not okay with me".  Put your clothes back on.  Gently apologize "I am sorry, I feel that this is not the kind of relationship I want with you."  Kiss [peck] and hug her goodbye and leave.  I know this has push-pull overtones, and you shouldn't use it under normal circumstances; however, your circumstance isn't normal.

Don't be confrontational, do phrase it in a way that is palatable, so you get your message across without being critical.  It takes practice, it is something new to me as well.  I used to be a lot more direct and confrontational, and that doesn't work.

"I just can't handle the idea of being a competitive suitor vying for her attention.
I will not be a backup plan."
Don't be her backup plan, but don't be confrontational either.

Good luck, and take care.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   I haven't heard anything from you for a few days.  Just checking in to see how things are going and if you are okay?

SD

[OKrunch]

Thanks for checking in salty,



I had another good therapy session on Wednesday and kind of formulated a game plan with my therapist.  That therapy session was also pretty instrumental in reminding me about radical acceptance, controlling my anxious obsessive thought patterns and reminding me that I've made a lot of progress, so has she, and lastly so have we both.



Although she never actually confirmed date and time for any plans that I was trying to make for the weekend, we ended up spending the entire weekend together.

I was concerned she was splitting her time between me and some other person.

Friday night I did not expect to see her. I had been trying to make plans to hang out on Saturday and or Sunday.  She ended up asking me to come over and hang out Friday evening after she got home from dropping her daughter off at her daughter's father's house.  Friday was a good hangout, and we actually ended up having a pretty good conversation where I was able to tell her that exclusivity was a goal that I had.  I did not even have to ask if she was seeing someone else period she told me that she wasn't because she could tell I was concerned about it.  She started falling asleep on the couch Friday night so I roused her and told her to head up to bed.  I took care of the dogs, locked the door and headed back to my camper. I had to work on Saturday, and after I got out of work, she again (without me asking) asked me to come over. Saturday was a lot more intimate. I did not sleep there that night either. Lastly, yesterday, I went out to breakfast with my best friend then hung out with him during the day. To may surprise, around dinner time, She asked me to come over again. We went out to dinner last night, and it was quite nice, then went back and curled up together for a movie.  Similar to Friday, I took care of the dogs locked the door and headed out after she fell asleep on the couch and she went up to bed.



Some takeaways:

the weekend was phenomenal. there is nothing to be doubted about that.

When I was there on Friday evening she was going on about how she had rearranged the house and what not after I had moved out.  She casually made a comment about the fact that she really likes the fact that she has the whole upstairs now to herself.  I didn't really have a response, and she realized what she had said and apologized. i then told her I preferred it when it was all four of us together but I understood what she meant by saying she had more space.  So there are definitely aspects about not living together that she is still enjoying.



On Friday when we were discussing things, I mentioned that I did not like the idea that I was kind of hidden away from her life.  She basically confirmed that she doesn't want anybody in her family or friend Circle seeing that she's interacting with me yet. after two nasty breakups.  That also kind of stung, but I understand she needs to take her time to be comfortable.



Another topic we discussed was not moving too fast, not getting too wrapped up into the relationship. she reiterated that she has a lot of  stuff to work on personally still. I know there are still hang ups about rough periods from our past.

She said something to the effect of  "its time I finally learn to really forgive and FORGET" she emphasized forget.

Holding grudges for any past hurt is something she struggles with.



Overall, this weekend went far better than I could have possibly imagined.

Even in the event that she wasn't completely honest with me about another person having been involved (and i do believe she was honest)  she spent every free moment she had with me this weekend, by her choice not because I asked.



There was reminiscence, there was intimacy, there was constructive discussion, there was laughter and mutual interest.



as an aside, rental costs seem to be dropping, so if I hold out a bit longer I should have no problem finding a home.


I am now shifting some focus to my physical fitness, more reading, less distraction techniques like gaming. Spring will be here before I know it and I want to be in summit hike shape.



Life is good. You are all wonderful.

[SaltyDawg]

You're welcome for the check-in.

From what you have said, it sounds like it is going quite well, and I am happy for you.  I won't comment on the good stuff other than if she saw you all three days over the weekend, spending every free moment with you, I'd say that is pretty exclusive, and the likely-hood of a 'side-dude' is exceptionally small - let those ANTs go it will help with your anxiety.

However, there were a few things that stuck out to me.

That therapy session was also pretty instrumental in reminding me about radical acceptance, controlling my anxious obsessive thought patterns and reminding me that I've made a lot of progress, so has she, and lastly so have we both.
Radical acceptance is a biggie DBT skill - to me it means that there will be one or more setbacks, and you need to accept that this will happen, and in my case, my pwBPD I know is not intentionally doing it, but she is doing it none-the-less.  So I have accepted she will do it; I have already forgiven her for doing it; however, I will still maintain boundaries on it.  However, the consequences of breaking those boundaries should be mindful to your specific situation.

She casually made a comment about the fact that she really likes the fact that she has the whole upstairs now to herself.
Sounds like you may need to make some concessions here to stay in her good graces -- an excellent opportunity to deviate from black/white thinking to shades of grey with a legit compromise.

On Friday when we were discussing things, I mentioned that I did not like the idea that I was kind of hidden away from her life.  She basically confirmed that she doesn't want anybody in her family or friend Circle seeing that she's interacting with me yet. after two nasty breakups.  That also kind of stung, but I understand she needs to take her time to be comfortable.
I am sure that stung.  However, please be mindful, that there is a lot of shame that she needs to process over you and the two prior breakups.  She needs to be comfortable on this issue -- let it emotions process that you are back in her life.  Give her time, at least 3 weeks [from the time you reconnected], but not more than 6 months - you are in that time range now.  Sooner or later, she will recommit to you if things continue to go well.  If it doesn't go well, she can cut you out of her life again -- this also encourages you to be on best behavior to make as many love banks deposits in her accounts as you can.  If it hasn't happened in 6 months, then it can be concerning and needs to be addressed.  However, keep in mind you just reconnected and are picking up the pieces, you will need to rebuild the relationship to the point where she is comfortable enough to share it with others.

she reiterated that she has a lot of  stuff to work on personally still. I know there are still hang ups about rough periods from our past.
This is excellent that she is self-aware.  Be prepared to a lot of work yourself on this, as it takes both partners in a relationship to be 'self-aware' to make it stronger.

She said something to the effect of  "its time I finally learn to really forgive and FORGET" she emphasized forget.
This is a DBT type skill/tool.  I find it easy to 'forgive'; however, it is impossible to 'forget' -- the mind simply doesn't work that way.  However, do not bring up past wrongs/grudges, as that is criticism and that is a relationship killer.  BOTH of you need to do this for each other.

I am now shifting some focus to my physical fitness, more reading, less distraction techniques like gaming. Spring will be here before I know it and I want to be in summit hike shape.
Keep self-care as a priority, it will make you happier, and in turn it will make your relationship better too.

Take care.

[OKrunch]

We've had decent connection of late. She has pulled back a bit after a conversation I had with her on this past Friday.
Turns out I had been right about there being another guy.

We discussed exclusivity, and I told her again that that is something that needs to be on the future horizon.

We've been in touch every day since, and I saw her on Sunday night, but she wasnt terribly receptive and warm, but also not cold and pushing away.

All this week since that conversation I have backed off significantly. I am waiting for her to reach out for any communication.
She has still reached out every day but our conversations have been much less frequent or lengthy.

I was not angry or rude when I told her about feeling like a 2nd option or a backup. She only invites me over late at night or on weekends. She is still hiding me.
I told her that I would EVENTUALLY need some honesty, exclusivity and reciprocation of effort in the relationship, but I understand her need for some breathing room right now.

This coming weekend is another where we both do not have out kids, and should present ample time to hang out.
I told her I would like to hang out this weekend, and asked to set a time ahead of time, if she wanted to. She said "I will"

The chase is over, I'm not going to continue to put my hand out to have it ignored or brushed off.
This weekend will be pretty crucial. It will show how much desire she has to take the initiative to make plans and hang out.
Last time I was doubtful, we spent the entire weekend together, So its really hard to say which way things might go this weekend.
If they continue to grow and show more interest from her side, We will tread slowly and work on things.
If not, I am done being the pursuer. She is fully aware of how I feel, where I stand, what my boundaries and desires are.
If hers don't match mine, or aren't growing to do so, I cannot continue to hurt myself by nursing false hope.

I feel much more in control of my emotions, and content with whatever the outcome might be.
Having received half hearted effort and emotion these past few weeks have dampened the fire that was my unyielding need to fix this. I am actively fixing myself, and I know the improvement I've made.

If it is truly meant to be, it will be, but this guy is not waiting in the wings to play second fiddle. No sir.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   Thank you for the update.  

   Be careful.  You are still being hidden and there is another suitor.  You need to come up with a reasonable timeframe for your goals to happen.  Loop your T into this conversation as he/she knows your situation better than I do.

   Do self-care.  Therapy is a big part of this, your mental health to fix yourself.  Also exercise and take time for yourself.

   Make sure that you have a plan, and then stick with it.

   Good luck, and take care.

[Turkish]

If it is truly meant to be, it will be, but this guy is not waiting in the wings to play second fiddle. No sir.

Good for you for realizing your own value.

I'd be wary of borderline magical thinking such as "meant to be." To me, that removes personal power and absolves one of responsibility. That's how I ended up in my story: a text from my then gf after she made it vehemently clear that she didn't want a bf after our first official date. No I didn't ask her... I thought it just a date.

I was  that she contacted me, but then [magical thinking] told myself, "give love a chance!" So I met her for a movie (not a date!) though I was busy with friends.

Five years later with a baby and a toddler, she went out on me with a young football stud.

At the time, my T told me, "typically, these things take a while to die down," Yet she lied to our T and Mr. Young football stud wasn't going to let it go.

Similarly, though I was done, she was still a little affectionate with me though not sexual, but more than a buddy. In retrospect, in realized that she felt a connection despite finding her new One True Love... and she was still living with me and the kids. Worst time of my life even growing up with a mother with BPD.

This site is all about preserving families and relationships, but if I were you, I'd plan a graceful exit with the help of your T and friend support.

[Rev]

Hey Krunch ...

I've been following pretty closely waiting for someone else to weigh in with what Turkish just said because I was wanting to make sure that I was being objective.

Hard as it may be to hear - Turkish is 110% right. You are a kind and understanding person. Offer that to yourself.

Rev

[OKrunch]

Im feeling pretty low today. Keep getting left on read. She got all pissed off about something stupid last night then apologized this morning. Shes lied about dating others. Im done waiting for her to use other people to find herself.
She only texts me to complain about work, her stresses from the dogs/daughter/house.
Im being used as emotional support, and for her to delay paying me what she owes me.

Im really pissed and down right now, but, I. AM. DONE.

Im not texting her again.
I think i am in such pain right now because I know its really time to quit.

I dont want to, but I am not ok with waiting in Limbo.
Im being played with.


 

[Rev]

Im feeling pretty low today. Keep getting left on read. She got all pissed off about something stupid last night then apologized this morning. Shes lied about dating others. Im done waiting for her to use other people to find herself.
She only texts me to complain about work, her stresses from the dogs/daughter/house.
Im being used as emotional support, and for her to delay paying me what she owes me.

Im really pissed and down right now, but, I. AM. DONE.

Im not texting her again.
I think i am in such pain right now because I know its really time to quit.

I dont want to, but I am not ok with waiting in Limbo.
Im being played with.

Hey there Crunch...  that feeling really does suck. It really does hurt. The first month that my relationship ended, and I wanted it to end, I still reacted in pain. I put 3500 miles on my car driving in the middle of the night. It was like I needed to stay busy all the time to numb the pain.

And so hang in there, because the pain eventually wears off. And the pain pales in comparison to a life of waiting like a yo-yo. You will hear stories of people here who went back, time and again, to have it worse. Turkish gave you one. I could give you one - three times I tried to leave, three times it only escalated after I came back. I was such a mess that I needed to couch surf for about six weeks and barely ate.

So staying right now will feel better than losing her. And the pain of this is small compared to what will escalate. Why do I know? Because experience tells me and others that you are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.  This, hard as it is to process because it is painful, is NOT YOUR FAULT.  There is nothing you could have done to make it different, even though on some level she wants you believe that.

What can we do here to support you best through this?  You have put so much of your soul into this thread. How can we help you find rest?

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

With much love,

Rev

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   This sucks.

   I was really hoping for the best for you; however BPD is such a drag.

   My uBPDw, made great progress, only to split greater than all previous splits before that - today, I was really down in the dumps.  She finally agreed to a 50/50 compromise, only to reneg on it, and do 100/0.

   Do some self-care, and talk to your T.

   Take Care.

[OKrunch]

Well things have been shaky for the last few days, after we had a conversation about her seeing other people she kind of backed off. She told me I was moving things along too fast, last night I was feeling some serious stomach anxiety and I messaged her about it and said my Spidey Sense was going off and asked her if everything was okay. She replied this morning by saying "I was sleeping, Maybe it was from your ex wife, you got the wrong one".  So rather than texting back I called her and asked her why she would say something like that. She was obviously irritated and immediately defensive, she referenced a conversation we had a couple days ago about her stressing out about all of her household stuff and the dogs.  I had said " I wish I could do more to help, I wish I was still there to help out everyday"  which apparently she had taken as me basically saying "Well you shouldnt have kicked me out".  Which is not at all what I meant. The conversation this morning turned into an argument, I reminded her that I have been doing nothing for the last month but supporting her during stressful times, helping her out with money and trying to be patient and understanding of what she needs. I explained that I just had the single boundary of wanting to be exclusive and it didn't even need to be immediately it just needed to be on the horizon. She continued to get angry and yell at me and basically told me that she doesn't ever want to be with me again and that we shouldn't have started talking in the first place and we're toxic for each other blah blah blah same old spiel. She blocked me again on everything and we're basically back to square one. During the argument she told me that she had only hung out with that other guy twice and they haven't slept together and I was like I never asked either of those things so I don't know why you're trying to justify it to me. I did end up getting angry and saying some things like the fact that she's stuck in a victim mentality, nothing I say is ever going to be enough.  She got mad when I said that I'm living in a camper because of her. She said that I'm living in a camper because of me. She still blames everything on me. I didn't listen when she wanted to fix things. All of the fights were my fault. She has no accountability.



I told her that if she ever wants to take me off of the back burner and stop holding me at arm's length and being ashamed of talking to me  and being seen with me to give me a call. I'm not reaching out to her, I'm not checking social media I'm not doing any of that crap. I'm feeling very angry and defeated right now, but I'm resolved to keep on, keep smiling and enjoy the upcoming spring.
As much as I wanted this to work, in a few months it wont sting so bad, in a few years it will be a memory.
I'm sure she will cool off, get bored, and call me, but Im pretty damn sure by the time she does ill have gotten off the roller coaster and exited the park.

Time for a quiet weekend with a LOT of looking inward.
Thank you all for your continued support and advice.

I think the thing that hurts the most is knowing that I am the one tearing this away now. Choosing to finally bury the corpse of my relationship is a very difficult task.

[OKrunch]

Copy+ Paste of the message my therapist sent me after i texted her earlier.

"You aren't an idiot. At this point, you have done everything and then some to prove to her that you care about her and want to have a healthy relationship with her. You are not toxic in this situation. Unfortunately, it is she who has the toxic coping skills and that is not your fault. If she refuses to take any sort of accountability and blames you for everything, this is a no win situation and you may be better off emotionally if you go your separate way. You deserve someone who will be a partner and will want you for all that you have to offer and I don't know if she will be able to do that. It is an all around really crappy situation and I'm sorry that things went sideways "

[Turkish]

I told her that if she ever wants to take me off of the back burner

What do you think of what your therapist sent to you? How do you feel about being on the back burner?

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   I feel for you, and know how you feel with her rejecting you on so many levels, sending you virtual hugs    I 'get it'.

   I am in a similar situation emotionally where I am and have been kept at arms length, and as soon as it gets closer than arms length, she splits with or without an accompanying rage for no logical reason.   Even though this is illogical --  I know when she lashes out at me like that, I am the one whom she loves the most.  Borderlines will hurt the ones they love the most, as it is with most moderate to severe mentally challenged individuals no matter if they are very high functioning borderline, or barely functioning in the case of alzheimer's, I get to witness both in my wife and sMother - lucky me [not].

   Our couple's T has seen my wife's emotional volatility while in session for the past two sessions, and even commented on it [without attributing it to being borderline, her words were 'you are not being rational' to my wife in a gentle attempt to draw her back into being rational.

   In addition to the inward soul searching you are going to do this weekend.  Please take some time and do some self-care.  Get out for a brisk walk/hike in the sun, let the elements of nature distract you.  Lose yourself in a good book/movie/tv show that you have always wanted to watch, but didn't have time for while chasing the elusive nature of your heart's desire.  I did that earlier this week when my wife had her longest split yet (lasted two days, versus several hours).

   One thing you may want to look at in your own mental health journey is to look at yourself, and try and figure out why you need to stay with her when she treats you so badly.  I myself am doing that with my wife, and my T strongly feels that I am a codependent with the overwhelming trauma bond that I am experiencing with my uBPDw, and I will be doing a deep dive on probably being codependent for myself in the next two weeks with my individual T.

   If you feel a need to vent, feel free to do so, I am monitoring this thread, both as a support for you where you can learn from my mistakes and I can learn from yours.

   Take care of yourself.

~SaltyDawg

[OKrunch]

This was my last message to her

"Just like you making a joke about the fact that you had me in hidden mode. That was cruel and you know it. The way that you can laugh at My pain says a lot. I told you yesterday on the phone that something you did hurt my feelings and you laughed in my face.

All I have done in the last month is support you and care about you and I have been there for you. I went out of my way to try and make sure that I was doing things that made you feel comfortable. The way you treated me yesterday was cruel vindictive and mean. I love you very much and I care about you very much but I'm not going to be treated that way. I was doing healthy communication to try and establish a good channel for us to really sort through our emotions and talk our entire past out and work together to build something. You were hiding things from me, covering things up and lying to me. And then when you found somebody that you deemed to be better for what you want right now, you found a reason to push me away yet again. Goodbye, no more "I'll always love you" "

[OKrunch]

She has me on block and is in full excommunication mode. I honestly think she got lonely started talking to me while she was still searching for other people found someone and then found a reason to push me away. I won't be surprised if she finds some reason to reach out and start talking again in 2 weeks or 4 weeks or 6 weeks when she gets bored again but I'm just not doing this s*** anymore.

[Pook075]

I'm new to this thread and Krunch, I'm so sorry brother.  I use the phrase 'brother' not in common slang, but because all of us here have been hurt so deeply while trying to be a great person and doing the right things.  None of us deserve the pain we've endured and I feel like it bonds us.  Others have really been here for me on my journey and I am very happy so many have been here for you as well.  Sorry I'm late.

I just read all 5 pages from start to finish, the highs and the lows, so I want to give you a fresh perspective.  Everything you've done has been logical, kind, compassionate, and honorable.  Yet every time I saw you building up hope, I'd grimace just a bit since I knew this was a 5-page thread.  We've all been there- the vicious cycles that put us up in the clouds and then bring us crashing back down to Earth.

Many people here have talked about your pwBPD's cycles, but I want to point out that you're going through those cycles as well and they're not healthy.  I know the goal here has been to rekindle love, I've been separated 5 months now after 24 years of marriage and my goal was the same.  But the more distance between the two of you, the more you're going to find yourself and what matters to you in the world outside of her.  

Don't get me wrong, you've been doing great.  It bothered me though reading this from start to finish that so many times, you'd mention NC as a way of getting her back.  That's not the goal with NC brother, the real goal is to focus 100% on yourself while she focused 100% on herself.  This is about YOU.

If the relationship works out someday, then that's amazing.  But it's obvious that she's not in a place to be exclusive with you, plus open, honest, balanced, etc.  And as bad as we all want that, it can't be forced no matter how hard we try.  Either it happens on her end or it doesn't.  None of this is your fault though and you've put in massive effort in changing yourself...celebrate that!  Celebrate how much you've grown, gained fresh perspective, etc.

One final piece of advice.  She has to get her life together and you'll never, ever, ever be able to help her with that.  Not because you can't, but because a part of her mind won't accept your help in a healthy, positive way.  Everything you do to help will be analyzed, spun around, examined from a thousand different angles, then thrown back in your face.  We all make that mistake wanting to ride in on our white horses and save the day, but we're not noble knights in this story.

Give it time brother and keep posting here to talk out your feelings and emotions- we can all relate and we've walked in your shoes.  I mean, every situation is different yet it all feels so darn familiar, abuse is abuse and we don't deserve it.  Again, this is YOU TIME, take some time to be selfish and figure out what you want outside the relationship.  Do it for you and you alone, not because some book said that it might get her back.

[OKrunch]

After waking up with severe anxiety this morning, and doing some thinking,  I have come to some painful conclusions. She gets panicked and pushes people away.



Looking back on the things that caused both of our breakups, there are definitely things I could have been doing better. I could have been doing more around the house I could have been more attentive to her triggers. I was still learning about trauma and what it meant to be in a relationship with someone that has trauma. So many of the arguments were pointless and seemingly manufactured. The things that I had been doing incorrectly in the relationship are all things that I have improved and worked on. Specifically in regards to our recent contact, I have been attentive patient calm and understanding. Maybe less on the patient portion of things. That's really what blew things up, is I was trying to move things along too fast.  But at the end of the day that was the speed I needed things to be moving at. I was not in the position to be waiting around for her to make a decision between me and some other guy. Her and I have a lot of history, she knows who I am. If I'm not your obvious First Choice then there's no choice to be made at all in my opinion.



In so far is the fight yesterday, I'm actually really angry about it. I had texted her the night before because I had a gut feeling that something was wrong and I was worried about her. Her response the following morning was a rude vindictive left-handed jab involving my ex-wife who she hates. She could have just as easily said no I was fine thank you for your concern, but she had to be mean and Venom tongued instead. Over the past two weeks she has gotten increasingly defensive and distant. As I mentioned earlier I firmly believe that this is because she started talking to somebody else that is new and interesting whereas I am old and she knows what problems there are. During our first break up she did this exact same thing where she dated someone who was very much not her type just to not be alone. Regardless, I'm starting to mind read about what she's doing and why. None of that matters. I didn't do anything wrong, I stood up for what I'm need my boundaries to be so that I don't get hurt worrying about losing her to someone else. I basically told her that if we're going to be dating then we need to at least be moving towards exclusivity, at least need to be laying the dirt work to start a foundation of building something. I wasn't asking for anything to be decided immediately and I wasn't asking for any officiality or labels or to be revealed to the public that she was talking to me. All I wanted was some honesty and transparency in so far as other people were concerned. I honestly think that from the point a week and a half ago that I asked her if she was seeing somebody else, she has backed off because she felt guilty and she knew she was doing something wrong. She was hiding me away from the world, and rather than embrace the fact that she was spending time with me because that's what she wants in her heart or at least that's what I believe, she's more concerned about her image and being in control. I honestly feel like I was being toyed with over the past month just because she was lonely, if some other person hadn't come along I'm sure she would still be warm. I know I'm rambling a lot here. I just need to get all of this out of my head.

[Pook075]

As I mentioned earlier I firmly believe that this is because she started talking to somebody else that is new and interesting whereas I am old and she knows what problems there are. During our first break up she did this exact same thing where she dated someone who was very much not her type just to not be alone.

Maybe consider unpacking this specific feeling with your therapist- it's the key to everything.  With you, there's stuff to deal with and it's easier to just avoid that.  In other words, she still has work to do and is not ready to commit to it.

Ask your therapist what you can contribute to that process and talk it out.  The answer is obvious, you just need to see it and believe it.

[OKrunch]

Maybe consider unpacking this specific feeling with your therapist- it's the key to everything.  With you, there's stuff to deal with and it's easier to just avoid that.  In other words, she still has work to do and is not ready to commit to it.

Ask your therapist what you can contribute to that process and talk it out.  The answer is obvious, you just need to see it and believe it.

This is very interesting, I am sending my T a message about it now.

Care to elaborate?

[Pook075]

This is very interesting, I am sending my T a message about it now.

Care to elaborate?

Sure.  When she's dating you, she has to work on the stuff that's been a problem in the past.  It's hard for her because it means that she has to deal with her own insecurities, her own mistakes.  Unlike you, she can't just "let it go" and live in the moment with you.  The past keeps rearing its ugly head and making her vastly overthink things. 

With someone else, it's a clean slate- there's nothing to think about or deal with.  It's new love, everything's exciting, and she's not being judged (or self-judged) on her past mistakes.  New love is much, much easier for someone with BPD...until reality sets in and the typical cycle shows up.

Again, the question is exactly the same as before.  What can YOU contribute to that process for her?  There's only one correct answer and you already know it, but it feels like you haven't accepted it yet. 

That's the whole journey here for all of us, the moment where everything comes into perspective and the world suddenly makes sense again.

[SaltyDawg]

Pook has some really good stuff to share, that is one direction you can go, and a good one.

I know where your heart is, and I suspect that your heart is probably in so much pain right now, more hugs... 

What I highlighted below in your text to her is being very critical, and that is one of the 4 worst things you can do to your relationship, being critical which brings on contempt which in turn destroys a relationship. 

Best thing for you to do, is let her anger go, you need to use the DBT skill of 'radical acceptance' that she is always going to be that way, she has done it over and over again.  You know it is coming, and if you want a relationship with her, you need to not let it phase you, and forgive her when she does that, and not get defensive, which is another thing that destroys relationships. 

Also use Google and look up 'gottman 4 horsemen of the apocalypse'.

Once you have done that, only then, use SET communication, and tell her that you forgive her.  If you do that, the cycle may come again, and then you will eventually be faced with this scenario sometime in the future.

Here is an analysis on why she shut down towards you based on your last 'text' to her, and the reasoning why:

"Just like you making a joke about the fact that you had me in hidden mode. That was cruel and you know it. The way that you can laugh at My pain says a lot. I told you yesterday on the phone that something you did hurt my feelings and you laughed in my face.
This is being CRITICAL / judgemental

All I have done in the last month is support you and care about you and I have been there for you. I went out of my way to try and make sure that I was doing things that made you feel comfortable.
DEFENSIVENESS

The way you treated me yesterday was cruel vindictive and mean.
CRITICISM / judgemental

I was doing healthy communication to try and establish a good channel for us to really sort through our emotions and talk our entire past out and work together to build something.
DEFENSIVE

You were hiding things from me, covering things up and lying to me.  And then when you found somebody that you deemed to be better for what you want right now, you found a reason to push me away yet again.
CRITICAL / judgemental


In your text, you were being argumentatively judgemental, critical, and defensive in your statement explaining your actions to her.

This is contrary to the Gottman principles...

This is also contrary to the 'do not JADE' that is prevalent on this site, where you did reserve judgement, you were argumentative, you are defensive, and you are explaining -- none of which should be done while a borderline is having an 'episode'.  'They [borderlines] can't handle the truth' when they are having an episode.

She triggered you, you responded in kind, and reactively she shutdown with contempt and NC = stonewalling, all 4 of Gottman's horsemen are present in this dynamic, also all four J.A.D.E. are also present.  While a normal person can handle this, a borderline cannot.

Take care.  Do care for yourself first.  Do talk to your T to figure out what is best for you, and then follow through.

[OKrunch]

Sure.  When she's dating you, she has to work on the stuff that's been a problem in the past.  It's hard for her because it means that she has to deal with her own insecurities, her own mistakes.  Unlike you, she can't just "let it go" and live in the moment with you.  The past keeps rearing its ugly head and making her vastly overthink things. 

With someone else, it's a clean slate- there's nothing to think about or deal with.  It's new love, everything's exciting, and she's not being judged (or self-judged) on her past mistakes.  New love is much, much easier for someone with BPD...until reality sets in and the typical cycle shows up.

Again, the question is exactly the same as before.  What can YOU contribute to that process for her?  There's only one correct answer and you already know it, but it feels like you haven't accepted it yet. 

That's the whole journey here for all of us, the moment where everything comes into perspective and the world suddenly makes sense again.

This makes a lot of sense, thank you Pook. My therapist agreed with this strongly.

Salty - I appreciate your input here, but At this point I have to put my own feelings and needs first. I'm being played with.
I cannot walk on glass any more. She will either miss me, or she won't. I'm done bending over backwards just to get lied to, left on read, and treated like a child.

____________________________________
We had a big fight over the weekend and Monday- then Monday evening / Tuesday we had a calmer conversation.
Below is my most recent message to my therapist.

"Predictably I ended up unblocking her. We had a conversation on Tuesday morning, she gave me a lot of the I need to work on myself and focus on my own stuff type of conversation. She has been having difficulties with her daughter, or so she tells me. I think it speaks volumes that I have to sit here and consider whether or not that is entirely true. I believe it is but at this point I really don't know with anything. We talked a bit about how I was coming on too strong and she felt too pressured. I just reinforced the boundaries I had mentioned about the fact that if we were hanging out and talking I needed it to at least have some sort of a goal down the road despite not having any need for labels or anything official immediately. I have vowed to myself that I am not going to reach out in any way shape or form for at least two weeks. I reached out yesterday and got pretty flaccid responses. She's not being rude but she's being pretty non-responsive and aloof. She tells me that she needs to work on herself and figure out her own stuff but I can't help but think that she's still probably hanging out with other people. So it's like I can't work on a relationship with you but I can work on relationship potentially with other people. I just don't have the time in my day to sit here and worry about this all the time. I know I'm going to stress over it and think about it constantly over the next few weeks but I have resolved it to just leave it alone. If she misses my conversation she will reach out. If she misses my attention she will reach out. I'm going to be very defensive and careful moving forward. And that's even assuming that there is anything on the horizon at all. It could just be dead and gone. I'm feeling very trapped and isolated. Cabin Fever is setting in pretty big time."

[OKrunch]

Sure.  When she's dating you, she has to work on the stuff that's been a problem in the past.  It's hard for her because it means that she has to deal with her own insecurities, her own mistakes.  Unlike you, she can't just "let it go" and live in the moment with you.  The past keeps rearing its ugly head and making her vastly overthink things. 

With someone else, it's a clean slate- there's nothing to think about or deal with.  It's new love, everything's exciting, and she's not being judged (or self-judged) on her past mistakes.  New love is much, much easier for someone with BPD...until reality sets in and the typical cycle shows up.

Again, the question is exactly the same as before.  What can YOU contribute to that process for her?  There's only one correct answer and you already know it, but it feels like you haven't accepted it yet. 

That's the whole journey here for all of us, the moment where everything comes into perspective and the world suddenly makes sense again.

Upon further thought this really sticks home. She constantly refers to "trying to figure out how to let go of resentments"
She holds grudges like they are lifesavers

[SaltyDawg]

Salty - I appreciate your input here, but At this point I have to put my own feelings and needs first. I'm being played with.
I cannot walk on glass any more. She will either miss me, or she won't. I'm done bending over backwards just to get lied to, left on read, and treated like a child.

I agree, that you were being played with from the perspective you have shared with us. 

Based on your text you have shared, it sounds like she wants you to 'listen' to her.  You 'hear' her, but you are NOT 'listening' to her, I will highlight the text below.  You could have communicated the same thing in a much gentler, kinder way.  A way that a borderline or dysfunctional individual would be better equipped to receive.  I strongly suggest you learn the SET method of communication https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0 it is much better received by the borderline or emotionally sensitive individuals.

"Predictably I ended up unblocking her. We had a conversation on Tuesday morning, she gave me a lot of the I need to work on myself and focus on my own stuff type of conversation. She has been having difficulties with her daughter, or so she tells me. I think it speaks volumes that I have to sit here and consider whether or not that is entirely true. I believe it is but at this point I really don't know with anything. We talked a bit about how I was coming on too strong and she felt too pressured. I just reinforced the boundaries I had mentioned about the fact that if we were hanging out and talking I needed it to at least have some sort of a goal down the road despite not having any need for labels or anything official immediately. I have vowed to myself that I am not going to reach out in any way shape or form for at least two weeks. I reached out yesterday and got pretty flaccid responses. She's not being rude but she's being pretty non-responsive and aloof. She tells me that she needs to work on herself and figure out her own stuff but I can't help but think that she's still probably hanging out with other people. So it's like I can't work on a relationship with you but I can work on relationship potentially with other people. I just don't have the time in my day to sit here and worry about this all the time. I know I'm going to stress over it and think about it constantly over the next few weeks but I have resolved it to just leave it alone. If she misses my conversation she will reach out. If she misses my attention she will reach out. I'm going to be very defensive and careful moving forward. And that's even assuming that there is anything on the horizon at all. It could just be dead and gone. I'm feeling very trapped and isolated. Cabin Fever is setting in pretty big time."

She is right, only you can work on yourself.  She is also right, only she can work on herself.  She is sorting through stuff, as you didn't use the SET communication method, you did come on too strong and were too pressuring [for her]. 

She was 'flaccid', she was 'not rude', she was 'being pretty non-responsive and aloof'.  This is all 'normal' kind of behavior for that kind of conversation you had with her.  I do not see any dysfunctional responses from her in this regard. 

You were hurt, and rightfully so.  Both of you guys are correct from your respective perspectives.

I know you want exclusivity, and you were not getting that, and that hurt you.  So, you lashed out at her.  By lashing out at her, you pushed her away into the other suitor's hands, or her willingness to seek out relationships with other people  -- I learned this lesson the 'hard way' myself, about 'lashing out' when I feel that I have been wronged legitimately [or not].  If you want her to be with you, you must pull her towards you, not push her away from you.

You cannot unsay what you have said, and it will take time of the lashing to heal.  If you want it to heal faster, you may want to mend fences with her, I would suggest a simple apology of "I am sorry for lashing out at you."  You are apologizing ONLY for the manner in which you lashed out at her by coming on 'too strong' [this is her 'truth'], do NOT apologize for the content which is your 'truth' - she won't respect you if you do.  You need to treat emotionally sensitive people with 'kid gloves', and the SET method uses this, as do a few other communications methods as well. 

Ask your T about this.  And proceed accordingly.

Also ask your T for feedback on how you handled this, and if she thinks you did 'lash out'.  'Lashing out' is something I know I had a hard time accepting of myself - it took a 'life coach' to tell me this, my individual T couldn't do this, our couple's T couldn't do this either.  I also find that I fall back into the 'lashing out' pattern if I am not mindful.  It is very humbling where I had to accept my contribution to the breakdown of effective communication in my marriage.

Take care of yourself, and do some self-care while you sort through what I have said.

P.S.  I also have two other reflective observations, if you are interested, where you could work on yourself to better handle difficult relationships.  lmk

[Rev]

Hey OKCrunch,

Just caught this - You've really been through a lot of thinking around this one.  It really sounds like you've done your level best to reclaim your ground while respecting your partner.

Repeatedly you've told us that you've been lied to. And time and again you've tried every angle.

I'm hearing in this response that you're looking for some emotional support here - less emphasis on advice or analysis.

Is there something that one of the ambassadors, someone who's really been here a long time could offer you?

I'd be happy to have them look into this thread and have you benefit from that experience. I remember being in a place where I just didn't know which way was up and out of the blue a retired staff person reached out to me and shared their own journey of self compassion.  Every story is different and maybe you're not in the same place I was. And yet, my intuition tells me that I couldn't hurt.

What do you think?

Rev

[OKrunch]

Its hard to accept, but I have to be done.

I have put so much into making this work, with more than one breakup.
I have made improvements and I have offered everything I can muster without hurting myself.

I am aware of my own value. I am a good partner. Am i perfect? Certainly not.
That said, I have been and would be a good husband. I have my own goals to work on, from professional ones to hobbies.

If anything is to work with us, she needs to want it. I told her that during one of our calm conversations.
We need to choose each other, every day. I choose her and she knows that. Right now, for whatever reason, be it complications in life, another person she needs to check the green-ness of the grass with, or just because attraction (emotional) is still low.
She needs to choose me also, and we both know it.

Perhaps she can figure things out with some space. Work is complicated for her right now, and so is parental life.
Ill let her breathe.

It's just very hard, because when we aren't fighting (which has been less frequently) she is the best human on the planet (barring my son of course)
So, not being in touch with her feels like living in a dimmed world.
I miss a great many thing, but I do not miss fighting.

She needs to be able to release resentments. I need to be able to balm my anxiety and not let it make my decisions for me.

Time and space are needed. No matter what.

I'm just tired.

[Rev]

Its hard to accept, but I have to be done.

I have put so much into making this work, with more than one breakup.
I have made improvements and I have offered everything I can muster without hurting myself.

I am aware of my own value. I am a good partner. Am i perfect? Certainly not.
That said, I have been and would be a good husband. I have my own goals to work on, from professional ones to hobbies.

If anything is to work with us, she needs to want it. I told her that during one of our calm conversations.
We need to choose each other, every day. I choose her and she knows that. Right now, for whatever reason, be it complications in life, another person she needs to check the green-ness of the grass with, or just because attraction (emotional) is still low.
She needs to choose me also, and we both know it.

Perhaps she can figure things out with some space. Work is complicated for her right now, and so is parental life.
Ill let her breathe.

It's just very hard, because when we aren't fighting (which has been less frequently) she is the best human on the planet (barring my son of course)
So, not being in touch with her feels like living in a dimmed world.
I miss a great many thing, but I do not miss fighting.

She needs to be able to release resentments. I need to be able to balm my anxiety and not let it make my decisions for me.

Time and space are needed. No matter what.

I'm just tired.

I was too was totally out of gas ... these relationships just sometimes make no sense.

I have watched you try and try to figure it out. You are so right about your anxiety - you've been on high alert throughout this whole thread. I really echo the time and space thing, because with time, you will find that with reclaimed ground there are some things that you won't abide. You've started by naming no longer being lied to, not being treated like a child, and not being put on the back burner.

What a great start.

Reach out any time. I'll be happy to continue affirming your sense of self respect. I know that when people did that for me, it made the world of difference.

In the meantime... high fives, hugs, or both. Your choice.

Hang in there my friend.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[Pook075]

This makes a lot of sense, thank you Pook. My therapist agreed with this strongly.

Salty - I appreciate your input here, but At this point I have to put my own feelings and needs first. I'm being played with.
I cannot walk on glass any more. She will either miss me, or she won't. I'm done bending over backwards just to get lied to, left on read, and treated like a child.

____________________________________
We had a big fight over the weekend and Monday- then Monday evening / Tuesday we had a calmer conversation.
Below is my most recent message to my therapist.

"Predictably I ended up unblocking her. We had a conversation on Tuesday morning, she gave me a lot of the I need to work on myself and focus on my own stuff type of conversation. She has been having difficulties with her daughter, or so she tells me. I think it speaks volumes that I have to sit here and consider whether or not that is entirely true. I believe it is but at this point I really don't know with anything. We talked a bit about how I was coming on too strong and she felt too pressured. I just reinforced the boundaries I had mentioned about the fact that if we were hanging out and talking I needed it to at least have some sort of a goal down the road despite not having any need for labels or anything official immediately. I have vowed to myself that I am not going to reach out in any way shape or form for at least two weeks. I reached out yesterday and got pretty flaccid responses. She's not being rude but she's being pretty non-responsive and aloof. She tells me that she needs to work on herself and figure out her own stuff but I can't help but think that she's still probably hanging out with other people. So it's like I can't work on a relationship with you but I can work on relationship potentially with other people. I just don't have the time in my day to sit here and worry about this all the time. I know I'm going to stress over it and think about it constantly over the next few weeks but I have resolved it to just leave it alone. If she misses my conversation she will reach out. If she misses my attention she will reach out. I'm going to be very defensive and careful moving forward. And that's even assuming that there is anything on the horizon at all. It could just be dead and gone. I'm feeling very trapped and isolated. Cabin Fever is setting in pretty big time."

Good for you, and yes- that was the answer you weren't saying out loud.  There's nothing you can do to "fix her" or "help her figure this out."  Only she can do that.  It stinks and I'm in the exact same boat that you're in, and I absolutely know how impossible this process is. 

What you can do is be true to yourself and figure your own stuff out, find your happiness outside the relationship.  That looks different for all of us, but it starts with accepting that we can't change the past and we need to focus on our own futures.  At this point, everything has to be about you.

I'm rooting for you man- good luck!  Don't be afraid to lean on us as we lean on you for time to time, that's what this community is here for.

[Pook075]

Upon further thought this really sticks home. She constantly refers to "trying to figure out how to let go of resentments"
She holds grudges like they are lifesavers

Yeah, I had to go through the exact same thing.  For instance, my pwBPD blasted me for something that happened 21 years ago...that she started (it involved her throwing dishes/kitchen utensils at me, then smashing plates on the ground.  I got mad and smashed plates too.  We both yelled a lot and it scared our young kids.).  She kept saying that she could never forget instances like that, and at first I felt horrible and apologized over and over again.  But eventually I realized that she's done all kinds of stuff and I forgave her and moved on.  Heck, the whole kitchen thing was her- I had forgot about it because I don't carry grudges. 

Now all that stuff is why she can't be with me anymore and you know what- I'm okay with that.  Not that I wouldn't want to save the marriage, but I fully understand now that this is about how she processes things when she's not stable.  That has nothing at all to do with me, so why should I keep apologizing for anything?  Or cater to her warped ego?

If your spouse can't let things go, that's on her.  You can't punish yourself for that because there's nothing healthy about clinging to the past inside a negative feedback loop.  It's bad enough she's punishing you for that- don't you dare punish yourself for it as well.  Make sense?

[OKrunch]

She's completely backed off, cold and mean again.

I'm going through some of your recent replies, and will type out a good reply to them tomorrow.

I'm feeling very low, used, strung along, lied to and manipulated right now.

She was lonely around Christmas, hang out with me until she found someone else interesting, and now has shelved me yet again.

I don't like this ride anymore. I am getting off.

[Rev]

She's completely backed off, cold and mean again.

I'm going through some of your recent replies, and will type out a good reply to them tomorrow.

I'm feeling very low, used, strung along, lied to and manipulated right now.

She was lonely around Christmas, hang out with me until she found someone else interesting, and now has shelved me yet again.

I don't like this ride anymore. I am getting off.

Might I suggest that you start a new thread- this time on the detaching board?

You'll get different kind of input there.

Just a thought.

Rev

[OKrunch]

Sure, if they want to move it thats fine.

[Rev]

Sure, if they want to move it thats fine.

I would suggest you start a complete new thread ...

Give people a resume of where you've been and what brought on the change

I'm really sorry that you've been hurt.  In the detaching board you'll have the chance to really focus on your own needs.

It'll give you a fresh start.

Hang in there.  You're worth it.

Rev

[SaltyDawg]

I miss a great many thing, but I do not miss fighting.

This is perhaps the thing I noticed the most from your recent posts, it really caught my attention when you said that.  When I confronted my pwBPD, when she stonewalled me for pretty much the entire month of October, I really enjoyed the sound of silence - no fighting.  The rages were gone, but so was her passion towards me.  It was all gone, for a whole month.  It wasn't until she had yet another crisis when she realized that she needed to do something in November. 

MyPWD is learning how to fight fair, and not flood.  She needs to prove to me that she is not BPD as I had suggested, so she is behaving much more civilized; however, it still comes through from time to time when she is really triggered illogically and testing the new 'no abuse' [physical, emotional, verbal] boundaries that have been put in place.

For the past two weeks, I would say we have made some decent progress in this area, and she is finally starting to warm up to me.  However, I am just waiting for the 'ax to drop', as it once again seems 'too good to be true'.  However, I am enjoying it while it lasts.

She's completely backed off, cold and mean again.
 
In October, my wpBPD backed off completely, and was cold too.  However, I wouldn't characterize her as being mean unless you considered being stonewalled 'mean'.

I'm feeling very low, used, strung along, lied to and manipulated right now.
I am validating your feelings.  Anyone who has been through what you have been through has a right to feel the way that you do.  Back then, and I still do to a lesser extent also feel much the same way you do.  If I had to choose one word to describe the way I felt back then, and still do to a lesser extent, the word that comes to my mind is 'betrayed' which sums up the way I felt when my pwBPD discarded the relationship.  Am I being recycled right now?  I don't know, but it is my goal to break free from the borderline/narcissistic cycle

She was lonely around Christmas, hang out with me until she found someone else interesting, and now has shelved me yet again.

I know this is how you feel.  However, please be aware, even though her thought processes seem distorted, I had to eat a huge amount of 'humble pie,' to see how my own actions and inactions contributed to the demise of my own relationship that I am currently putting in one last 'hail Mary' attempt at salvaging which is somewhat parallel to your own, but not quite as extreme.  It required me to shift into a mode of DBT 'radical acceptance' which to me was a totally alien concept as recent as three months ago.  Please look at my previous post, to see how she might see your actions and how they contributed to where you are at now.  Use it as a road map, to avoid similar pitfalls with whomever you meet in the future.

I had to do this for myself, as this is my 2nd dance with a upwBPD, so I felt compelled to do a deep dive on myself, to see where I had messed up, since this was the 2nd failure in the span of 2-1/2 decades.

I don't like this ride anymore. I am getting off.

You have to decide what is best for you, and then do what is best for you. 

Good Luck, and take care.

P.S.  If you do move it to the detaching board, leave a link here [and there back to this thread] to continue your journey.

[OKrunch]

IDK. She's seemingly done, but that has been the case more than once in the past.

Saw she updated / made a new dating profile today. That sucked, but also told me that whomever she is seeing is not up to snuff?

I want to be done. I want to detach. I want to not care.
But I cannot seem to accomplish those.

I had a improptu T session yesterday, It helped. But seeing that profile this morning kicked it all over.

I dont want this to be done. I dont want to not have her in my life.
I cant reach out, im excommunicated.

I feel like S**t

[OKrunch]

I keep just going over and over in my head - "Is she just super stressed with work/parenting/finanaces and seasonal depression, or does she legit dislikes me and honestly wants me to piss off"

Is it a split? is it depression? is it pressure?
Will i hear from her? if so, how long will it take?

Things were going good 2-3 weeks ago. Wtf happened?

I can't shut these questions up.

[Pook075]

I keep just going over and over in my head - "Is she just super stressed with work/parenting/finanaces and seasonal depression, or does she legit dislikes me and honestly wants me to piss off"

Is it a split? is it depression? is it pressure?
Will i hear from her? if so, how long will it take?

Things were going good 2-3 weeks ago. Wtf happened?

I can't shut these questions up.

Hey buddy.  You're thinking about this the wrong way...what she's thinking, what she's feeling, why she's doing what she's doing.

All those thought are about why someone with BPD makes surprising choices.  None of us are qualified to answer that here other than the base answer of "they live off emotion, not logic".  That's all we have- the answer to all of your questions is that she's not thinking this out like you or I would.

Give it time, my friend, and find a way to be content with this process playing out without your input.  You have no control over her feelings of thought patterns.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   I feel for you.  It is terrible.  I am sending you a hug.   

   Please do some self-care.  Go outside, and walk, run, get some sun on your face. 

   Take a hot shower.  Curl up with a book/movie/tv show - do something to distract yourself from all of this pain.

   Do another T session if you can.  Vent here. 

   Take care.

Salty

[OKrunch]

Well it's been over two weeks so I figured I'd dip in for an update.

Back on February 12th she finally made arrangements for me to come and pick up my phone. I had asked about meeting up and taking the dogs for a walk, to which she initially said no, and then changed her mind and said that she would like that. About 20 minutes later she texted me and said that she had a bunch of family drama going on and didn't want to leave the house anymore. She said she would leave the phone out on the mailbox for me. I told her I could come in like 20 minutes or a half an hour and asked her to let me know when she wanted me to come and she got more irritated and I said I will be there in an hour. She seems to be satisfied with being told what the circumstance was. When I went there an hour later it was not out on the mailbox as she had said it would be. I texted her and she was like oh I'm still staring at the ceiling I'm sorry and told me to come to the house to get it. I stayed outside with the dogs, and she told me that I could come inside, and offered me coffee. We were chit-chatting and she was obviously in a bad mood. I asked how things were going with Her daughter and she started going off about the things that were stressing her out which transitioned into her getting upset about things between her and I. At one point she told me she's just completely done and we need to just put it behind us. She seemed pretty convinced when she said this. We continue talking for another 5 or 10 minutes and eventually she was just like you need to leave and I said yep that's fine and I left. I sent a text message trying to diffuse things afterwards, and she apologized for today's interaction. The only thing is I'm just sitting here wondering now if that apology means that she didn't mean what she said about us never ever being a thing or if she's just apologizing that we argued. I think in the back of her mind she knows she was the one who brought the conversation in that direction.

She is genuinely stressed out, and still painting me black as a way to cope.

The following morning She texted first thing this morning and thanked me for the message that I had sent last night. She said she was still in a  disassociative mood and said that she hoped it would pass soon. This is the first time I've seen her really use this piece of terminology, which tells me that she's listening to the things she's hearing from her psychiatrists.  I found it rather telling that she was apologizing to me about how things went on Sunday considering on Sunday she told me that she never wanted to be with me again and if that was the case why bother talking to me? 



We were not in touch for several days following that.

Feb 17th - 21st: No contact for several days. I reached out on Saturday. We began to have a normal conversation, and then she went off about her PLEASE READ family doing PLEASE READty things in regards to her grandparents estate. She then went on to talk about how she is "losing her daughter". She mentioned "losing her" again. She said something to the effect of "This is why i cant even discuss us right now" I said there was nothing to discuss, that i hoped things improved for her soon, and that i was here if she needed anything. She never replied to that. I sent a "hope youre well" text on Sunday, also no reply.



Having gotten no response from Sundays text I waited a few days to check in. She has a LOT going on right now and I care a lot about her daughter and want her to do well.

 I waited 3 days before I reached out again. I messaged her yesterday morning at about noon and just asked how things were going. She didn't message me back until 10:30 last night and said " hi thank you for the sweet message. I'm doing my best and taking it one day at a time. I hope you are well" I said I was doing fine and mentioned that I took My Son to snowboarding recently. She didn't respond last night but did at about 8 this morning we talked briefly about Her Daughter doing kickboxing and My Son doing snowboarding. I asked how Her Daughter was doing and she replied "We are full of ebbs and flows" Figuring I would say something while the conversation was going pleasantly, I asked if she had any plans this coming Saturday. She said she has plans with her father to work on her car Saturday night. If I'm being completely honest I don't want 100% buy that, she may be meeting up with her dad to do car stuff but I highly doubt that it's in the evening time. Probably during the day on Saturday. I replied by saying
" okay I should be around if your plans change and you end up wanting to hang out let me know if there's any other time that you would want to" to which she replied, and this is kind of what I would like to dissect here. And I know I'm trying to mind read.
" I'm sorry but I don't think hanging out would be good for me. I have tried to explain that I need to focus my energy here and I cannot be getting back into our messy situation - whether you think it can be casual or not. I don't want to say it harshly. I hope you understand what I am saying. You hurt me and I hurt you even though we loved each other. Those are lots of deep-seated emotions that you can't just stuff down"
 My reply: " you have explained, and I don't want to just stuff them down. I do understand what you're saying and I'm happy that you are focusing on yourself. I don't want anything to be messy and I don't want anything to be serious or dramatic or anything. I would really like to spend time with you, if and when you are ready to do that, and in whatever capacity you need"
She simply said " thank you for understanding"



I just need to get myself a proper game plan. I'm glad that her and I had a pleasant exchange and that the door is open, but again I'm going to continue to stretch out or even eliminate when I reach out.

[OKrunch]

Also worth mentioning, the whole phone situation was resolved two weeks ago. I got a new phone with a new plan and a new phone number. I told her she could cancel my old phone line anytime at this point. She has not done so. I think there's a part of her that does not want to close off that last line of open communication.



For somebody that has complained about excess bills, it seems very odd that she would keep this phone line open, rather than just ask me for my new number and shut the old one off.

[SaltyDawg]

Thank you for the update.

It sounds pretty messy.  She is definitely processing everything about your relationship.

What stood out for me is your comment on her relationship with her daughter, it sounds like a pretty similar dynamic going on there where that relationship is also strenuous at best.

For my particular situation, I know my interaction with my uBPDw is very triggering for her, and I suspect a similar dynamic in your situation.  She needs to figure it out on her terms.  What I found very helpful is to record my interaction with my wife, and review it when I am no longer triggered myself, and I can see how she becomes triggered based on my actions, and then I correct my behavior to make it smoother.

As you have aptly observed, that she is now using terminology associated with therapy.  She needs to figure out what is best for her, just as you need to figure out what is best for you.  Just pray and hope for the best for her, and she will get the help that she needs.

Notably absent, you didn't mention your therapists and her opinion on the current situation.  You may want to discuss your feelings and observations with your therapist, and what you can do to take care of yourself in this situation.

I am a firm believer in self-care, whatever, that looks like for you.

Take care.

[OKrunch]

Thank you for the update.

It sounds pretty messy.  She is definitely processing everything about your relationship.

What stood out for me is your comment on her relationship with her daughter, it sounds like a pretty similar dynamic going on there where that relationship is also strenuous at best.

For my particular situation, I know my interaction with my uBPDw is very triggering for her, and I suspect a similar dynamic in your situation.  She needs to figure it out on her terms.  What I found very helpful is to record my interaction with my wife, and review it when I am no longer triggered myself, and I can see how she becomes triggered based on my actions, and then I correct my behavior to make it smoother.

As you have aptly observed, that she is now using terminology associated with therapy.  She needs to figure out what is best for her, just as you need to figure out what is best for you.  Just pray and hope for the best for her, and she will get the help that she needs.

Notably absent, you didn't mention your therapists and her opinion on the current situation.  You may want to discuss your feelings and observations with your therapist, and what you can do to take care of yourself in this situation.

I am a firm believer in self-care, whatever, that looks like for you.

Take care.

Salty, thats just it. I think She is processing everything BUT our relationship. That is too much to unpack for her right now with all the other stuff like her daughter, work, money, family drama etc. going on.

Can you elaborate on what you said about the relationship with her daughter?

I just messaged my Therapist, she basically told me it sounds like she is begging for space, and not wanting to be mean or rude about it. So that is what I will provide. I need to focus on my fitness, and my housing.
So, no more check ins with her for now. If she chats with me, ill respond, but I've got to treat it like she won't.
My therapist also frequently lets me know this is her cycle, and my presence in her life of lacktherof won't change that.
I tell her I know it's a cycle, and I know the risks and implications of continuing to stay where I am at.

I have given myself to the end of the Summer to get myself situated in a house or apartment down here. If I cannot, I will probably go north and stay with my parents. Housing is far cheaper up there. significantly.
2023 will prove to be a year of change no matter what. 

[Pook075]

" I'm sorry but I don't think hanging out would be good for me. I have tried to explain that I need to focus my energy here and I cannot be getting back into our messy situation - whether you think it can be casual or not. I don't want to say it harshly. I hope you understand what I am saying. You hurt me and I hurt you even though we loved each other. Those are lots of deep-seated emotions that you can't just stuff down"
 
My reply: " you have explained, and I don't want to just stuff them down. I do understand what you're saying and I'm happy that you are focusing on yourself. I don't want anything to be messy and I don't want anything to be serious or dramatic or anything. I would really like to spend time with you, if and when you are ready to do that, and in whatever capacity you need"
She simply said " thank you for understanding"

When my BPD ex and I first split up, she'd call and say that we couldn't throw away 24 years of marriage.  The next day, she'd say it's over and doesn't have any feelings for me at all.  A few hours later, she'd show up and want to talk...only to explode and say super hateful things.  Then she'd text me a day later asking if I wanted to go to dinner.

Like you, I kept trying to figure out which part was "the truth"...like there had to be one specific way she felt and the rest was just emotion in the moment.  I now accept that it's all the truth and that's how her brain works when she's stressed; she just can't process things in a normal way and it's a complete roll of the dice whether she loves me or not in that moment.

In the statement I quoted from your ex above, I think she's being dead-on honest and you need to accept that.  In her words, I don't see an "I don't love you" or a "we can never be together" type of vibe.  She's saying that she needs to work thru her problems on her own and you need to let some stuff go that complicates a potential future together. 

Honestly, that's the same advice everyone here has been giving you as well- work on yourself and let her go, let her figure this out on her terms and give her a chance to heal.  Your job is not to rescue her, your job is to let her figure out how to rescue herself and be happy in her own skin.  And you need to do the same.

I can tell you from experience, I didn't give my wife space when she first left and I did the exact same thing you did.  I wanted to save her like I always did, and I wanted to save our marriage.  That essentially doomed us though because it pushed her away more than anything- my pursuit only confirmed the fears in her mind that she had to run.  It's not logical, it's not right by any means, but that's how someone with BPD processes breakups.  It's 100% emotion 100% of the time, and those feelings can change in a blink of an eye.

I hope that helps.

[OKrunch]

In the statement I quoted from your ex above, I think she's being dead-on honest and you need to accept that.  In her words, I don't see an "I don't love you" or a "we can never be together" type of vibe.  She's saying that she needs to work thru her problems on her own and you need to let some stuff go that complicates a potential future together. 

Honestly, that's the same advice everyone here has been giving you as well- work on yourself and let her go, let her figure this out on her terms and give her a chance to heal.  Your job is not to rescue her, your job is to let her figure out how to rescue herself and be happy in her own skin.  And you need to do the same.

I can tell you from experience, I didn't give my wife space when she first left and I did the exact same thing you did.  I wanted to save her like I always did, and I wanted to save our marriage.  That essentially doomed us though because it pushed her away more than anything- my pursuit only confirmed the fears in her mind that she had to run.  It's not logical, it's not right by any means, but that's how someone with BPD processes breakups.  It's 100% emotion 100% of the time, and those feelings can change in a blink of an eye.

I hope that helps.

this does help, a lot, its an affirmation of exactly what I am trying to accomplish. You chose the exact words to let me know what my gut is telling me to do is right, and you also put my anxiety at ease with saying she isnt saying 'NO NOT EVER"

My biggest fear is this all just turning to dust, to never speak again, and worst yet to see her possibly build a life on the foundation we built together.

Fear is a hell of a drug.

Thank you Pook, that helps more than I can say

[Pook075]

this does help, a lot, its an affirmation of exactly what I am trying to accomplish. You chose the exact words to let me know what my gut is telling me to do is right, and you also put my anxiety at ease with saying she isnt saying 'NO NOT EVER"

My biggest fear is this all just turning to dust, to never speak again, and worst yet to see her possibly build a life on the foundation we built together.

Fear is a hell of a drug.

Thank you Pook, that helps more than I can say

Maybe it all does turn to dust...that's a real possibility.  You have to be okay with that though because you have no say on her mental health.  It's great that you're both taking steps to heal but at the end of the day, you ultimately have to choose each other and she doesn't sound like she's close to that point.

I hope it works out for you man, I really do, but you're going to be okay even if it doesn't.  Focus on you, my brother, and find other passions in life to get you through the day/week/month/year.

[OKrunch]

Thanks again.

I know it may be dust. I have to accept that. I have been trying to remind myself its been FIVE MONTHS.
And it was NINE last time we broke up.
I need to be able to get over it and move on.

If we hadn't reconnected back in the beginning of Jan, this would be a lot easier.
I was doing pretty good in the first two months of the breakup. It wasn't until Novemeber, the pregnancy thing, and talking thru Dec and spending time together in Jan that it got way harder.

I just can shake the feeling of being replaced. Its an ego thing and It shouldn't effect me.

People keep telling me ill meet someone better, but thats damn hard to imagine. She set the bar so freakin high.

I have been keeping a personal journal since Jan. I will keep up on that. I will not reach out on her birthday (Mar 14)
Reply only mode.

I have challenged myself to do this so many times. The longest I've lasted was a few weeks.
I am determined to do it right this time.

Day 1 begins again today.

[SaltyDawg]

Can you elaborate on what you said about the relationship with her daughter?

[...]

I have given myself to the end of the Summer to get myself situated in a house or apartment down here. If I cannot, I will probably go north and stay with my parents. Housing is far cheaper up there. significantly.
2023 will prove to be a year of change no matter what.

With a borderline, they will be most severe with their favorite person, usually their spouse, but not always.  They will also be unstable with others that they like, like her daughter.  Not much to elaborate on, other than both your relationship with her and her relationship with her daughter are both unstable.  Same symptom for both you and her.  Didn't mean too much with that statement, other than an observation.

Sounds like you got a good plan, please stick with it, as each time you revisit [the relationship] you are figuratively pulling the bandage off a fresh wound and re-injuring your emotional self, it will hurt like heck.

Do self-care under the guidance of your therapist.

Take Care.

[OKrunch]

In the statement I quoted from your ex above, I think she's being dead-on honest and you need to accept that.  In her words, I don't see an "I don't love you" or a "we can never be together" type of vibe.  She's saying that she needs to work thru her problems on her own and you need to let some stuff go that complicates a potential future together. 

Honestly, that's the same advice everyone here has been giving you as well- work on yourself and let her go, let her figure this out on her terms and give her a chance to heal.  Your job is not to rescue her, your job is to let her figure out how to rescue herself and be happy in her own skin.  And you need to do the same.

I can tell you from experience, I didn't give my wife space when she first left and I did the exact same thing you did.  I wanted to save her like I always did, and I wanted to save our marriage.  That essentially doomed us though because it pushed her away more than anything- my pursuit only confirmed the fears in her mind that she had to run.  It's not logical, it's not right by any means, but that's how someone with BPD processes breakups.  It's 100% emotion 100% of the time, and those feelings can change in a blink of an eye.

I hope that helps.

Pook,
I have been stewing on this statement for quite a while.
While I agree that she wasn't saying "I don't love you" or "we can't be together" (although she did use it in the past tense when she said "We loved each other", which has been also sticking in my mind),
I still can't get the thought of "Well, you need space to figure your stuff out, and I ENCOURAGE AND RESPECT that, but how is it that you're doing that while still seeing someone else periodically?"
Over a month ago when I had originally asked about other people, she told me "Its simple with him, neither of us want a relationship". Which freaking STUNG to hear. She also yelled and told me she "Hadnt even slept together yet"

So i guess, to simplify.

If she needs space to figure her stuff out. Why just space from me?

[OKrunch]

That came off sounding paranoid and clingy. That wasn't my intent.

Psychologically speaking, I can see why a "new" thing with no bad history wouldn't illicit the emotional response I, and our bumpy history does.

I get that talking to me, seeing me, includes "opening the box" that contains all of our past for her, and right now, while her other stressors are high, that box contains too much emotion for her to deal with.
Someone else doesn't have that history.

She ran to a "boring" option during our last breakup.
So history repeats.


Lastly, I hear what you are all saying. Meditating on detachment, and trying to keep things balanced in my mind.
Do i want to fix this and make it work? Yes
Do i still have a lot of hurt feelings over how My son and I were treated, pushed away (in winter) and then strung along, and put on the backburner?
NO.

I wish i could stop my minds unyielding torrent of questions and analyzation

[OKrunch]

I really wish I could just stay angry, control my urge to check in every 3 damn days.

Spring is les than a month away.
I could have moved by then, might have a new job by then

I can change my entire life except the general area in which i live (for custody reasons)

Really really really hurts to just be, left.
I wish i could forget about everything like she seemingly has.

[kells76]

Hey OKrunch,

I have been keeping a personal journal since Jan. I will keep up on that. I will not reach out on her birthday (Mar 14)
Reply only mode.

I have challenged myself to do this so many times. The longest I've lasted was a few weeks.
I am determined to do it right this time.

Day 1 begins again today.

I really wish I could just stay angry, control my urge to check in every 3 damn days.

You're breaking the cycle of how things used to go.

You made it >24 hours. How has that been for you? What worked to make that happen?

[OKrunch]

Thank you for the encouragement. I know I can go longer. I've gone weeks without reaching out in the past.

The hot and cold stuff is just so damn confusing.

One piece of the last thing she said to me just keeps repeating in my head over and over and over again.

"I hope you understand what I am saying. I DON'T WANT TO SAY IT HARSHLY"

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

I am going to ask you some very difficult questions in response to your questions and observations that are designed to make you look inward at yourself in order to grow as a person and to gain additional insight as to why the cycle repeats itself over and over and hopefully enough to help you break the cycle that you are in.


That came off sounding paranoid and clingy. That wasn't my intent.

Please meditate on why it came off sounding 'paranoid and clingy'?


So history repeats.

Please meditate on how to stop history from repeating itself.  What can you do to break this cycle?


Do i want to fix this and make it work? Yes

In an ideal world, nothing is broken and everything works.  However, this is not an ideal world.  What can you do to 'fix this and make it work'?  If she is the one that needs fixing, who is the only person that can do that?  She is the only one that can fix herself, and from what you have communicated, she is trying to do exactly that.  Also, I know you have your own therapist, please talk to her to see what you can do to fix yourself.


Do i still have a lot of hurt feelings over how My son and I were treated, pushed away (in winter) and then strung along, and put on the backburner?
NO.

I am going to pushback on this assertion of yours that you do NOT have 'hurt feelings' over how you have been treated by her.  I suspect you may be beyond hurt, and you may actually be numb, which no longer hurts.  Hopefully, I am wrong, but the simple fact of you mentioning this in this post, means you do have feelings on this, please do meditate heavily on how her actions have affected both you and your son on this.  Is this acceptable to you?


I wish i could stop my minds unyielding torrent of questions and analyzation

Ask this same question to your therapist, and listen to her observations on this, and follow her suggestions on what to do about this.  This is something that you need to deal with, and it is something that you must adapt to in order to fix it for yourself.


If she needs space to figure her stuff out. Why just space from me?
Let's look at that from a different perspective -- yours instead of hers.  Would you agree that she is most passionate with you in both the good ways and the bad ways [of pushing you away] when you are around her?  So, if she has an intense emotional reaction to you when you are around her; perhaps not so different from your own reaction when you are around her --  do you think more clearly and objectively when you are around her, or when you are physically separated?  I suspect the answer may be when you are 'separated', and I suspect the answer will be the similar for her - that is why she needs space from you, just as you need space from her to think clearly; even though I know you don't feel that way.


I really wish I could just stay angry, control my urge to check in every 3 damn days.

It sounds like you have recognized your own 'cycle' and to quote you, it is 'every 3 damn days'!  Why do you wish to 'stay angry'?  Is it because this is your version of the 'devalue/discard' in the cycle?  When you are not angry, do you try to get back together again, your version of the 'recycle' in the cycle?  Is your 'urge to check in', presumably out of concern for her, your version of 'love bombing' to her?


I could have moved by then, might have a new job by then

Why haven't you moved on?  Why haven't you obtained a new job?  Is it because you are stuck in this cycle that is preventing you from moving on?


I can change my entire life except the general area in which i live (for custody reasons)

I understand the custody reasons; however, why haven't you changed your life for the better within the constraints of the custody arrangement?  Is it the cycle that needs to be broken so you can move on?


Really really really hurts to just be, left.
I wish i could forget about everything like she seemingly has.

Yes, it does hurt tremendously to be 'discarded'.  Your emotional wounds are fresh, and you have a '3 damn day' cycle in which you re-open those wounds over and over again.  As long as you keep on re-opening these wounds, they cannot heal.  What can you do to stop this cycle?


I know my words might sound like an attack to you.  They are meant to reflect your words back to you, from a different perspective, so you can see what you are actually saying.  I suggest doing a deep dive with your personal therapist.  I know you will analyze the heck out of them.  You will likely reject much of what I have just said; however, it holds your 'truth' how to stop tormenting yourself and to break the cycle.

Take Care.

[Pook075]

Pook,
I have been stewing on this statement for quite a while.
While I agree that she wasn't saying "I don't love you" or "we can't be together" (although she did use it in the past tense when she said "We loved each other", which has been also sticking in my mind),
I still can't get the thought of "Well, you need space to figure your stuff out, and I ENCOURAGE AND RESPECT that, but how is it that you're doing that while still seeing someone else periodically?"
Over a month ago when I had originally asked about other people, she told me "Its simple with him, neither of us want a relationship". Which freaking STUNG to hear. She also yelled and told me she "Hadnt even slept together yet"

So i guess, to simplify.

If she needs space to figure her stuff out. Why just space from me?

Hey buddy.  It's easy to get sucked into focusing on every word she said, and I think why we do that is because we're searching for a clue as to what we did wrong, or what we can do differently.  But the simple truth is, you didn't do anything wrong...you can't fix this. 

The problem is in her mind and how she processes her emotions.  She's genuinely hurt by what happened between the two of you and she's asking for space.  Why space from just you?  Because she can't process how she feels about you.  It's just too complex and too complicated for her to work through on her own, so she shuts down and pushes you away. 

It may help to remember that pwBPD often push away the people they care about the most.  This isn't her trying to punish you or anything like that; she just can't deal with the relationship.  I'm going through the exact same thing as well.  If my wife needs something, she calls/texts and we have a normal conversation.  If I need something from her, she freaks out, has an anxiety attack, and shuts down.  There's nothing logical about it.

As others have said over and over again, you have to focus on yourself and find your own happiness.  Maybe that's a new job, new hobbies, more time with friends/family, or whatever.  Make this about you and only you, because there's nothing you can say or do for her that will fix this.  She needs space, so give it to her by being selfish and focusing on yourself.

I hope that helps.

[OKrunch]

Yesterday was a very high anxiety day for me and I'm not quite sure why. I belched my emotions out here, as well as to my sister-in-law over the phone. She and I had a very good conversation at the end of the day which was very good to remind me of some of the things that I don't see with my rose colored lenses on. I'm being used, how she owes me 1700 that she is playing nice in order to delay paying me. How not paying me that money is directly affecting my ability to put a roof over my son's head. She has had a traumatic past, and it has turned her into a self-preservationist. I don't blame her for it, but it definitely makes her an unviable partner.



Anxious attachment sure is one hell of a mind warping God damn thing. It keeps you blind just so much mistreatment.  Anytime I mention my mistreatment, I'm always quick to mention that I played my part as well. The difference is that I recognize it and I'm actively trying to change it. But most importantly that I even recognize it.

I also recognize my own complete lack of self control, or at least what I have exhibited in the last 2 months. I need to stop pouring from a cup that has only dry sand in it. My view of spiritualism is very much linked to the four elements, Chief among those being water for me. I should know better than to keep an empty cup





Conversely, I went on a date last night, and it went really well. I'm in no rush to get into anything serious but it was just nice to get out and enjoy somebody else's company.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   Thanks for sharing again.  I am glad that you realize that you are being 'used'.  I am saddened that you loaned her $1700 which she isn't paying back and that is negatively affecting the care of your son and yourself.

    I have had my own share of trauma in my past, [to the extreme end of the spectrum], and I think I am doing remarkably well all things considered, but it also has put me into the caretaker roll with codependency traits.

    Your attachment style is your enemy.  I am glad you are aware of it, you 'recognize it', as you can utilize tools from your therapist to kind of mitigate your own behaviors of a lack of self-control.  Work with your T on how to develop skills to counteract your own destructive behaviors.

Conversely, I went on a date last night, and it went really well. I'm in no rush to get into anything serious but it was just nice to get out and enjoy somebody else's company.

Dating is the quickest way to 'get over' a past love, you are distracting yourself with someone new - much like she is doing for you.  You know her cycle(s), don't fall into the same trap for yourself with your own cycle(s).

Right now you are incredibly emotionally vulnerable and you may 'get lucky' or you can get very 'unlucky'.  I recommend extreme as you put your toes back into the dating scene. 

I am also going to question your wisdom, since you are having issues putting a roof over your own head in addition to your son.  Make sure you put yourself and your son first.  It costs money to date, activities, hotel + nice meals = $100-$1000 per date.  This is something that you should have a talk with your therapist about.  I personally would only use 'surplus' money on dates once the essentials of food, shelter, child care, child education are covered.

  Years ago I went from a very bad situation with a uBPD/NPDexgf woman into a 'less' bad situation that I am currently in with my uBPDw.  I jumped out of the fire into the frying pan [see:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_the_frying_pan_into_the_fire] which was still a bad situation.   In essence, I attract the same kind of woman over and over again.  It took me half a century to figure this out - what can I say, 'I am a slow learner' when it comes to issues of the fairer sex.

So, I have book marked to the following lists found here at BPD family to avoid falling into the same trap over and over again should I find myself in the very same situation of re-entering the dating scene that you are now in.  The following lists contain traits of the borderline or other mental health issues that one should lookout for while re-entering the dating scene to break the cycle of dysfunctional emotional relationships/attachment styles.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=353716.0;all
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329294.0;all
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334928.0

Dating has changed since the Internet became common [I've been on it since the early 1980's when it was still called ARPAnet], with Tinder and other dating apps, one is often expected to have sex by the 3rd date.  I know 'sex' for me blinds my other emotions - if a girl is 'too easy,' that is my number one warning.  Both of the aforementioned women uBPD/NPDexgf & uBPDw seduced me intimately on our respective first dates, which I allowed to happen, which says something about me too.

My advice now is to 'take your time' to get to know your POI [person of interest] before having sex with them, no matter how tempted you are.  Don't put the cart before the horse.  I personally would wait at least a month, if not more before entering that arena.

I am glad that you are testing the waters; however, it comes with the risk of repeating the current cycle you are in.  I would like for you to do it with your eyes wide open to be on the lookout for any red flags since we are all creatures of habit, and you want to break the cycle of negativity that you have found yourself in for the past several years.

Take [ultra] care of yourself.

[OKrunch]

I am texting her in a week (after she gets her raise and bonus) to politely discuss the repayments. That is all I will discuss.
I expect when I ask, she Is going to get angry and find reasons to yell at me. My Therapist said she thinks will likely be the case as well.

T's exact words were - "She will most likely become dysregulated and blast you but I don't think you would be out of line by telling her that you were counting on this to save to get housing and while you realize that it is helpful for her, you need it to have a roof over your head. If she gets over the top dysregulated, you are probably better off ending the conversation and letting her ponder over it for a while."

I want to apologize to you all for my panicky desperation on Friday. In hindsight that felt like one of the last gasps of my separation anxiety with her. I had a very motivating and eye opening conversation with my T on Friday and it was a very re-grounding situation.
I don't want to piss her off, I don't want to make her feel like I am "sucking her dry" or whatever reason she finds to get mad at me for asking, but this repayment was agreed upon in November, and she is now 2 months late with 2/3 of the payments.
I need to care for my son and myself. I need a home.

To Clarify - Salty, - I didn't lend her this $$. It is from a housing assistance program that I applied for and got. Which payed the rent and some of the utilities for 3 months. I used this program last year while we were living together and again at the end of 2022.
The amount of money is based on all four of us living there, and our combined income.
So basically, she kicked me out in Sept, while the 2nd application was still pending.
It went through in Nov, and she then Didnt have to pay rent Dec, Jan and Feb.
She was supposed to pay me half of her rent amount, to repay my half of that assistance program.
This is what we agreed on in Nov.
She has paid me for Dec only thus far.

Once this last piece of clerical business is resolved (either she pays me, sets up a payment schedule, or tells me to eff off, screams at me and doesn't repay me) It is the last thing we need to resolve.
After that. True no contact begins.

I have not reached out since Thursday. I will text once regarding the money. That is it.
If she gets angry, I'm not engaging in a text argument.
I feel used.
She used kindness and closeness in Jan to delay paying.
Feb it was "I need space" (using my attachment to cause me to delay asking, so as not to make her mad)
Now its "my life is in shambles, im broke, im a bad mom" - (using pity)
Whether this is premeditated or impulsive is moot.
it is manipulation regardless.
It took a LONG time for me to accept the fact she could use me this way. I didn't think her capable of that.

Im done making a fool of myself.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   I agree completely with your T.

   I understand the money issue.  Keep it BIFF in your text [Brief, Informational, Factual and Friendly].  If she makes an issue of it, you need to use 'wise mind' and determine if it is worth your effort for the $$'s versus the mental pain she will inflict and follow it which I think you have already expressed when you said "Once this last piece of clerical business is resolved (either she pays me, sets up a payment schedule, or tells me to eff off, screams at me and doesn't repay me) It is the last thing we need to resolve.
After that. True no contact begins."

   I strongly suggest that you ask your T [or a dear guy friend] to hold you accountable for the "NC" when it begins, with consequences. 

   I am proud of you for deciding that you want to break this cycle for yourself.  Keep up the good work.

   Remember to do self-care for yourself [within your budget] even if it means walking outside for a while, in addition to your individual therapy, and whatever else you enjoy doing for yourself.

   Take Care.

SD

[OKrunch]

She finally disconnected the old phone line.

For some reason, despite the fact that ive been waiting for this...
i feel bad about it. Further away and more forgotten.

[SaltyDawg]

Another small victory.  Another small step in the right direction for independence with more NC!

 

[OKrunch]

Doesnt feel like it.
Feels like further loss.

[kells76]

She finally disconnected the old phone line.

For some reason, despite the fact that ive been waiting for this...
i feel bad about it. Further away and more forgotten.

Does it feel like cutting off the old phone line represents, or is attached feelings-wise to, something about the relationship?

Like now that she has decided on her own to cease that connection with you, what could have been is "done"?

Whatever is going on for you, and do correct me if my guesses were off base, it sounds like you're noticing a big emotional response to this.

How do you think you'll navigate the rest of your day, feeling that loss?

[OKrunch]

Well I made it almost a week without reaching out this time. However this one comes with a bit of a silver lining. It was the last piece of conversation I needed to know how badly I was being used.



Because I care very much about her daughter, that is what caused me to reach out and ask how things have been going. She said that things were improving, and that she was excited to be able to bond with her daughter on a concert trip they're going to take in May. She owes me $1,600 and knows that I'm living in a camper. However she decided it would be prudent to pre-book a trip across the country to go to a concert for the weekend before taking care of other responsibilities.



Well I do understand that her mindset of trying to reconnect with her daughter, which I completely agree with, there are several hundred ways in which she could have done that without blowing a bunch of money. Furthermore, she did not need to tell me.

So now I know she's spending a bunch of money that she owes me. I really hate fighting about money it's pretty awful. I care about these people very much, but I need to secure my own place to live and maintain my adult responsibilities. I was planning for that money in my budget throughout the winter and I haven't received it.



What blows my mind is the fact that she would tell me about it, which tells me that she's either deliberately trying to rub it in my face and elicit a reaction out of me, or she is just so in a selfish mood right now that she cannot even think about the fact that she owes me this money. I really don't even think it's crossed your mind.



So I'm pretty irritated with myself for giving up myself control and reaching out, however it proves to me that she has no intentions on taking care of the agreement that we decided on, which is hindering my ability to get a house over my head.

What is more, is that although I am irritated about the situation I am not having the anxious response that I would have expected that I might. It feels very final.

In all of the conversations we have had over the past few weeks she has not asked how I am doing, How winter is going in the camper, how my son is doing. She doesn't care.



I'm waiting for a response from my therapist about how best to approach asking her about the money that she owes me. My therapist already said pretty much no matter how I asked she's going to flip out on me.



Lastly, I'm like 90% sure I found an apartment. Which I think is awfully serendipitous and kind of coincidental that I'm going to be needing to get this money from her right at the same time as I'm going to actually need it to secure a house.



I'm very surprised at how good of a mood I am in right now considering the morning I have had. Tell me what I've been thinking about for weeks.

I'm being used, and that crap stops today.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

   She sounds a lot like my previous uBPD/NPDexgf.  She would do impulse type spending like buying a new stereo system while a required property tax bill was left unpaid.  She used me as her 'gravy train' which ended when I caught her cheating on me not the first time [I gave her a warning], but on the 2nd dude.  She appeared to be totally unaware of the consequences of incorrect prioritization of her spending which would appear from an outside perspective of being exceptionally selfish - there is likely a similar dynamic happening in your situation - she cannot comprehend the consequences of her actions and looks out only for herself, what she can only see in the here and now, but not that is not in her own field of vision [you] but also needs to be taken care of - you are not a 'priority' for her.

   I know you cannot afford to lose $1600 right now - I would suggest using BIFF communication to request at least some of the monies owed to you.  I knew with my exgf I would never see any of the monies I lent her back, but I could afford to lose it, so I just cut my losses and ran and I did not deal too much with what she owed me ($50k in the year 2000, which is like over a $100k in today's dollars).  It also kept her NC on me [what I wanted anyways] as she knew I would bring up the $$'s that she owed me if she ever tried to call me up again.

   I know money is tight, but, plan for the worst [you likely won't see any of it], perhaps work out a compromise for some of it now, and some of it later, so you can put a roof over your head.  Some money is better than nothing.

   Good luck, and take care.

[OKrunch]

Im not planning on getting it. But she literally said "I'll stick by my word and pay this" back in December.

So ill be damned if I'm not going to ask. I'm not missing out on an apartment because she's being greedy.

She straight up used my emotions against me to delay or avoid paying.
That requires premeditation, that's where I draw the line.

Im asking for my money, politely and professionally, and she can flip her lid if she wants. She may not pay me, and I expect that.
At the end of the day this is a matter of principal for me. I will not be used, and then say nothing about it.

[OKrunch]

This is what I will be sending. Quite possibly the last text i ever send her.

"Hey, I was glad to hear that things with DAUGHTER are improving. I just wanted to reach out and touch base about the assistance program repayment plan. I know when we last talked about it in January you had mentioned your raise and bonus at the end of February, plus tax returns, and that you would take care of it then. I am likely moving in a couple weeks and just want to get all of my eggs in one basket by the end of this month. Please let me know what sort of a payment situation works best for you.



I'm glad you and DAUGHTER are doing well,  and please give my love to the black fur circus (our pets), I miss them all.

Thanks I look forward to hearing from you."

[Pook075]

This is what I will be sending. Quite possibly the last text i ever send her.

"Hey, I was glad to hear that things with DAUGHTER are improving. I just wanted to reach out and touch base about the assistance program repayment plan. I know when we last talked about it in January you had mentioned your raise and bonus at the end of February, plus tax returns, and that you would take care of it then. I am likely moving in a couple weeks and just want to get all of my eggs in one basket by the end of this month. Please let me know what sort of a payment situation works best for you.



I'm glad you and DAUGHTER are doing well,  and please give my love to the black fur circus (our pets), I miss them all.

Thanks I look forward to hearing from you."

I don't know your ex, but I personally think that's too long for a text.  The thing about her daughter was a call, wasn't it?  I wouldn't mention that or the past agreement.  I'd just say:

 "Hi, I hope you're doing well.  Just reaching out to see if we could settle up on the assistance program funds."

There's no reason to give any of your personal info, extend love to the dogs, etc.  If she wants to know, let her ask.  I think the more direct you are, the better your chances of getting a response.  The longer message would let her respond about the daughter, the dog, where you're moving to, etc.

Just my 2 cents, I could be completely wrong since I don't know your ex personally.

[SaltyDawg]

"Hey, I was glad to hear that things with DAUGHTER are improving. I just wanted to reach out and touch base about the assistance program repayment plan. I know when we last talked about it in January you had mentioned your raise and bonus at the end of February, plus tax returns, and that you would take care of it then. I am likely moving in a couple weeks and I need $xxxx for a security deposit, and I am short of making it since I don't have my assistance money.  I really would like to no longer be homeless and need this money that was promised to me.  Thanks, I look forward to hearing from you by this Monday on this matter.

just want to get all of my eggs in one basket by the end of this month.



Please let me know what sort of a payment situation works best for you.



I'm glad you and DAUGHTER are doing well,  and please give my love to the black fur circus (our pets), I miss them all.

Thanks I look forward to hearing from you."

I would reword it a little bit, see highlighted section above.  Let her ask you how much you are short, also indicate that she is keeping you in the camper [almost homeless], reword the homeless part if you wan't, but you are living in your vehicle, just one step up above being homeless.

[kells76]

Agreed with Pook075 & Salty Dawg -- shorter is better (more effective for your purpose) and include a deadline. Decide in advance what you will do if she chooses not to meet the deadline -- otherwise it's just empty words.

Lean towards BIFF instead of JADE.

Do you have any documentation of her owing you the money (emails, etc)?

[Rev]

Agreed with Pook075 & Salty Dawg -- shorter is better (more effective for your purpose) and include a deadline. Decide in advance what you will do if she chooses not to meet the deadline -- otherwise it's just empty words.

Lean towards BIFF instead of JADE.

Do you have any documentation of her owing you the money (emails, etc)?

Third vote for the tri-fecta.

Hang in there. 


Rev

PS - Still think you should consider a new thread. It will help to change your thoughts.

[OKrunch]

Thank you everyone.
I will trim it down. Was going to send it tomorrow morning.

[OKrunch]

Well, i trimmed it down to just the bare essentials, while keeping it polite. I took out the bit mentioning that I am moving. She can figure that out herself after I do.
She flipped out anyway.
Went from telling me how broke she was, to blaming it on me, to calling me names and insulting my integrity.
I kept my cool, she tried to call in the middle of her rant, and I didn't answer.
She threatened to "never speak to me again" I said that was fine if she chose to.
Finally after my not responding for a few of her ranting texts, she changed tunes, started apologizing for her outburst and wished me well. I didn't reply to any of that.

Here are my T's words after i explained the exchange to her. - "Well. We knew that was coming. How are you feeling about it? From my perspective, it shows that she is not necessarily progressing like you'd hoped and everything is still your fault. It might be a good idea to just not reach out again. You asked for the money and she has yet to give you a concrete time that she will get it to you so there is no use continuing to battle with her."

So, thats it. The curtain falls upon the final act.
Im moving in a month, and not looking back.
Thank you all.

[SaltyDawg]

So, thats it. The curtain falls upon the final act.
Im moving in a month, and not looking back.
Thank you all.

OKrunch,

I am going to hold you to your proclamation [virtually].

Please update us when you get proper housing for you and your son, or if there are any new developments.

Make sure you do self-care, and take care of your boy too.

Definitely continue to see your T, she sounds like one of the better ones, a 'keeper' as they say.

Perhaps a small celebration is in order for making it this far. 

Take care.

SD

[Pook075]

So, thats it. The curtain falls upon the final act.
Im moving in a month, and not looking back.
Thank you all.

I'm sorry that she didn't handle the text well, but we all knew that she wouldn't.

It's important to remember though that this isn't over until you say its over.  In other words, you have to be the one to move on because she will always be there just outside of arm's reach.  It's incredibly hard to say its over and actually stick to it, but it's also very rewarding long term if that's what you truly want.

I wish you luck buddy- stick to your guns!

[Rev]

I'm sorry that she didn't handle the text well, but we all knew that she wouldn't.

It's important to remember through that this isn't over until you say its over.  In other words, you have to be the one to move on because she will always be there just outside of arm's reach.  It's incredibly hard to say its over and actually stick to it, but it's also very rewarding long term if that's what you truly want.

I wish you luck buddy- stick to your guns!

Ditto ... ditto... ditto

[OKrunch]

I'm sorry that she didn't handle the text well, but we all knew that she wouldn't.

It's important to remember though that this isn't over until you say its over.  In other words, you have to be the one to move on because she will always be there just outside of arm's reach.  It's incredibly hard to say its over and actually stick to it, but it's also very rewarding long term if that's what you truly want.

I wish you luck buddy- stick to your guns!

What do you mean she will just be outside of arms reach? She doesn't want anything to do with me, and at this point the feeling is pretty mutual.

[Pook075]

What do you mean she will just be outside of arms reach? She doesn't want anything to do with me, and at this point the feeling is pretty mutual.

You said after her explosion, she apologized and wished you well.  That's all part of that push/pull dynamic and she may respond again.  It is ultimately your choice what you do when that happens- to allow the pattern to repeat hoping it gets better, or to decide to ultimately step away and break the cycle.

It really stinks but like folks here have been saying, this has been about you this entire time.  You get to make the choices on what's best for you.

[OKrunch]

She can't respond if I don't reach out. Which I am adamant not to do.

What I would do if she reached out, or stopped by in person? I cannot yet say.

[SaltyDawg]

She can't respond if I don't reach out. Which I am adamant not to do.

What I would do if she reached out, or stopped by in person? I cannot yet say.

Okrunch,

You might want to plan on having something planned to say and/or do [or not do, like not answering the door after you see it is her on the other side], otherwise, you could easily get 'sucked' back in.  You need a plan to resist her 'temptations' of the 'pull' dynamic.

I am going to remind you, and everyone reading, the "7 P's"

Proper
Prior
Planning
Prevents
Pi$$
Poor
Performance

My other mantra is "Hope and Pray for the Best [which failed to occur]; but, plan for the worst."

Now you need to plan for the 'worst', be firm in your resolve and follow through with it.

Take care with self-care.

Salty

Easiest way to go NC is to block your phone and block your social media accounts to her.  Or at least mark her number as 'spam' so you won't be bothered with her on her terms, but only when you check your spam box/folder on your phone.

[OKrunch]

i STRONGLY doubt ill be hearing from her or seeing her, likely ever again, but ill make a plan regardless.

[Rev]

i STRONGLY doubt ill be hearing from her or seeing her, likely ever again, but ill make a plan regardless.

I thought the same ...  until she ambushed me ... at work.

Block her. it'll do you some good.

[tina7868]

i STRONGLY doubt ill be hearing from her or seeing her, likely ever again, but ill make a plan regardless.

Hey OKrunch! I'm going to chime in since I can relate to how you're feeling. I am a big proponent for this type of action plan. Although it may feel like you won't hear from her again, past events suggest that the possibility does exist. A therapist once told me that this type of plan is in line with a fire escape plan from a building; you hope that you won't have to use it, but should a fire break out it can make all the difference to know what to do. It allows you to respond (or not respond) in a way that is in line with who you want to be now that you are in a clearer state of mind, instead of reacting based off your feelings that may be triggered in the moment. It allows you to take control of the situation.

[Pook075]

i STRONGLY doubt ill be hearing from her or seeing her, likely ever again, but ill make a plan regardless.

From what I've learned in researching BPD over the years is that the feeling of being unwanted, unhappy, and unloved are always there, basically making the person have terrible self esteem and feeling empty inside.  Your ex will blame you for feeling that way, just like she blamed her ex before you, her former bosses and friends, her former teachers, and likely her parents and/or siblings as well.  In their mind, there's always someone or something that's the source of their unhappiness because they can't possibly believe that it comes from within.

So when a BPD leaves, they do so to feel better and to heal from a "toxic relationship".  There's almost always a new favorite person, maybe a lover, and they're happy for a period of time until reality catches up and they suddenly feel all that sad, empty, dysregulated stuff all over again.  And another cycle starts- maybe that brings them back to you, or maybe they find a new favorite person again to fixate on.  But in any case, the loop continues with or without you.

Even though it feels like she'll never be back, the odds are that she will try at some point and it will be up to you to make a decision.  That's what most people have experienced here...I personally have not but my situation is a little unique since my wife's new favorite person is a handicapped individual with the mentality of an 8 year old.

Just be prepared at some point for her to show up out of nowhere and want to restart the relationship with the love-bombing and feel-good moments.

[Turkish]

Pook075,

This is exactly how it went down with me. Despite marrying a  study college football jock 20 years younger than me for whom she left me, she eventually asked to come back. She had a happy romance for over a year until the wheels fell off shortly after they married and he moved in with her and our kids.

[OKrunch]

Wow, thanks everybody for the continued advice and support. I will definitely continue to be vigilant. This weekend was a major turning point for me. I don't want any of this stress aggravation,  pain and conflict anymore.

This " relationship"  has not brought me joy since last summer, and that was fleeting.

I'm moving soon and she's not going to know where.

The only way she is going to have to get in touch with me is to show up at my work, which is a pretty extreme step and I can just have her leave if she's being a problem.



I feel the strength of the Sun for the first time today. Although daylight savings time isn't for a week, and the Equinox for another week after that, this feels like the beginning of Spring for me.



I feel good. I feel as though my conscious is clean and I am at peace.



I built that peace and I will not let anybody else tear it down

[Rev]

I'm moving soon and she's not going to know where.

I built that peace and I will not let anybody else tear it down

I did exactly the same thing ... that was THE best thing I could have done.

[OKrunch]

I stumbled across this today.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=352242.0

A bit harsh, but was definitely a needed read.

[OKrunch]

Ive been over in "detaching" for a while now, but honestly, i still want her back, and knowing about the replacement makes it so much harder.