Needing clarity, dating single mother with uBPD

[cloned2bewild]

Hello everyone,

I posted here a few years ago being in a similar scenario that I could break free from sooner though after a couple of months. I have to say (as embarrassing as it is) that I am a mental health professional myself. We in the helping field have a long-term history with co-dependence and so I have a history of dating women with unstable personalities. I would say I am too understanding, calm and having too little of good contact with my own feelings of anger. But I am working on it for over 15 years now.

I am 38 years old and I started dating my (still) GF roughly one year ago. She is the mother to a four year old daughter. She takes care of her 50% of the time. It was a very new experience for me dating a mother but I was also curious and open to the idea of a child around me. She was in a 14 years long marriage before, one that from her description sounded utterly dysfunctional, yet the two stuck together for a long time. The father rejected the child after it was born for the first two years. He fell into a deep depression and had a lot of anger issues himself (according to her). She decided to leave after those two years. I got to know her like ten months later, which is not long and I probably should have been wiser at the time, but she menitioned that she was emotionally not invested anymore for longer. I got to know her daughter like five months in and I developed a really good connection with her, which makes the idea of separation even harder, as being a break-up with two.

The relationship was rocky from almost the beginning though. I would say the longest it remained fairly calm and steady was no longer than two weeks maximum after a fairly smooth first month, but even then something fell off for me. I mean, better trust your gut, hm? She tends to be very impuslve and when she feels frustrated by something she tends to get very angry and lashes out. To the oustide and friends she is a very happy, smiling, energetic person and also with me she could be like that, but also deeply saddened and lost. That could swing from one day to the next or from one half of the day to the other. The reasons are often unclear to me, also later it is hard for her to explain what happenend and for her it was almost forgotten the next day. There were a lot of incidences where she got verbally very hostile with me. I should have followed my gut feelings and should have left the situation then immediately after trying to calm her once, but usually I stayed, trying to cool her down or was frozen, only to get attacked more by her. It felt abusive at these times, but I honestly also have let it happen.

Last week happened something similar, this time though for the first time with her daughter present. Her daughter got sick with a fever and my GF had to take care of her, which I fully understood. After an hour of consideration I thought it might be a good idea to give them both space, so that my GF can fully nurture her daughter and so I proposed to go home for that night. I thought it was a constructive thing that I calmly proposed to her, which resulted in an explosive outburst, her immediately shouting at me to leave her alone, that she doesn't want to talk to me, all in front of her daughter, which was a new quality. Probably she felt rejected or abandoned. I went out of the situation for a moment, trying a couple of minutes later again, which didn't work. Then I went for a walk coming back twenty minutes later, but she was still enraged, basically ignoring me as if I was air and any attempt to calmly speak to her was responded by rage and disrepect, telling me that I was such a selfish person. At one point her sick daughter was holding her hands over her ears and my GF kicked me out of the house, which happened for the first time. Ironically me being the one who suggested to calmly leave in the first place. I was really disoriented, I apologized to her daughter for that she had to see a scene like that and left, no one said good-bye to me.

Ever since then I have not seen my GF for a week. We only had phone calls, as we both got sick, probably from the daughter. I am so angry about all the mistreatment and disrespect that had happenend over the course of 12 months. The problem is, as some of you might know, that it doesn't remain in this angry state. The next day, when she feels that what happanend was not okay for me, she is regretful and sweet and wants to reconcile things. I said to her this week, that I don't know if I can ever trust her again and that I am thinking about ending the relationship, which let her to spiral down to desperation and begging me to give her a last chance. She started schema therapy very recently, which is a good step, but her promise that this will never happen again is very unlikely, as she said the same a month ago where I also was at the point of leaving.

I feel empty by now. I feel physically and emotionally exhausted and I started to neglect other things in my life, like friendsships and hobbies because the relationship became very consuming at one point. I feel ending it, is the only reasonable thing to do. I feel that her begging clouds my clarity and the more I talk to her I become convinced that she could really make a change, but my clinical rational brain knows, that this takes years of severe daily work on trauma (in her case physical and emotional abuse in her childhood).

It's crazymaking that the person that can show immense love to you can be equally hostile. And you never know when it flips. I feel like walking on eggshells constanly, expecting a slight happening at any time and not feeling to really open up to her anymore. And yet I believe vulnerability, trust and safety are the foundation of any intimate relationship.

Have you experienced something similar? What was your conclusion?
How do you evaluate my situation? Is a profound change soon realistic?
Do you think BPD is likely?

I guess any form of support would be helpful for me.

[SaltyDawg]

I posted here a few years ago ... I have to say ... that I am a mental health professional myself. ... I have a history of dating women with unstable personalities.
If you play with fire, you will eventually get burned...  That is also second symptom of being BPD according to the DSM.  I too find that women with unstable personalities are attracted to me, even with my wife at my side, I still get them hitting on me, in front of her on occasion.

I am 38 years old and I started dating my (still) GF roughly one year ago. She is the mother to a four year old daughter.
The D is not biologically yours; however, you are emotionally attached.  So, there is no legal obligation for you; however, there is a moral one.

The relationship was rocky from almost the beginning though. ... I mean, better trust your gut, hm?
& listen to your gut instinct is very important.  It sounds like you are looking for validation on listening to your gut -- I will share with you that I follow my gut instinct.  Since you are a MPH, please use the DBT tool of the "Wise Mind".

She started schema therapy very recently, which is a good step, but her promise that this will never happen again is very unlikely, as she said the same a month ago where I also was at the point of leaving.
Excellent, please encourage her to continue this, DBT and CBT are also useful.

I feel empty by now. I feel physically and emotionally exhausted and I started to neglect other things in my life, like friendsships and hobbies because the relationship became very consuming at one point. I feel ending it, is the only reasonable thing to do. I feel that her begging clouds my clarity and the more I talk to her I become convinced that she could really make a change, but my clinical rational brain knows, that this takes years of severe daily work on trauma (in her case physical and emotional abuse in her childhood).
As a MHP, you should already know the answer to your observation.  It sounds like that you are caught in Stockholm Syndrome where this is a trauma bond.   

It's crazymaking that the person that can show immense love to you can be equally hostile. And you never know when it flips. I feel like walking on eggshells constanly, expecting a slight happening at any time and not feeling to really open up to her anymore. And yet I believe vulnerability, trust and safety are the foundation of any intimate relationship.
It is human nature to want to believe the one that you love will go out of their way to improve themselves for you.  We can easily see the potential there; however, they need to actively work on that potential to make it happen.  If you are not seeing the work towards this continually [outside of her therapy], then you need to re-evaluate this for yourself.

Have you experienced something similar? 
Yes, my previous relationship from the late 1990's was with a probable uNPD/BPDgf with two children from a previous marriage -- she was a widower, so I didn't think the issues I was seeing was that concerning, but I was also naive at the time too.    I then hooked up with my current uBPDw, no children when I met her, no previous marriage; however she was 29 at the time we met.  Fastfoward to present day, she is 51, and I just figured out about BPD this year [look at my other posts for more details] -- it sucks.

What was your conclusion?
When 90's GF cheated on me, she crossed a boundary, so I ethically ran as fast as I could.  However, I should have followed my gut feeling much sooner and ran much sooner.  Knowing what I know now, that it what I should have done.

How do you evaluate my situation?
You have already done your own evaluation, you just need to follow your gut instinct.

Is a profound change soon realistic? 
From your GF's own words of her previous relationship, if you are seeing repeat patterns with you, what does your gut tell you?

Do you think BPD is likely? 
Everyone has some level of BPD traits, myself included.  However, does it rise to the level of being diagnosed as BPD, it takes a qualified MHP who is an expert in BPD to make that formal determination.  However, there is an excellent book by Randi Kreger "Stop Walking on Eggshells" [3rd edition] that has an excellent assessment tool in it to help you determine if it is likely.

I guess any form of support would be helpful for me.
I've given you my unprofessional opinion, and that is to follow your gut on this.  Do what is best for you, and only you can take care of you.

[Notwendy]

but even then something fell off for me. I mean, better trust your gut, hm?

Does it even have to be BPD, or any diagnosis to trust your gut? If something seems off in the beginning, then why ignore that? It also seems "off" to you now, after a year of dating this person.

It's hard for the little girl but it's the parents' responsibility to protect her from her mother's boyfriends coming into and out of her life. She sounds delightful but her mother is the one you are deciding about.

[arjay]

"I have to say (as embarrassing as it is) that I am a mental health professional myself."
My dBPDxw was a mental health professional.  You would think she would better understand herself?  Nope.  Everything you have read here regarding the struggles of these relationships applied to her.   The moral of the story is that you being a MHProfessional does not guarantee a healthy relationship with a BPD partner, and in my case, being in a relationship with MHProfessional with BPD, did not guarantee a healthy relationship either.  One can read all the literature about BPD and have little clue of the reality of the actual magnitude of the emotions, so common in these relationships.  Learning "after the fact" (i.e reading the personal experiences of others here) can help in our own "understanding" during/post the relationship, but realistically could never have prepared us enough in the beginning, for what was to come.

"The father rejected the child after it was born for the first two years. He fell into a deep depression and had a lot of anger issues himself (according to her). She decided to leave after those two years."
As you pointed-out, "according to her".  Though it may be true in her case, according to my BPDxw, her former husband was controlling, mean and abusive.  I found a letter he addressed to her (she had saved it) prior to their divorce.  It was clear he loved her and didn't want it.  It was my experience that it was "her" that was the abusive one, and I suspect was the same towards him as well (once I began to understand BPD).  Their common theme seems to be "always mistreated", yet ignoring their own behavior.

"We in the helping field have a long-term history with co-dependence and so I have a history of dating women with unstable personalities."
When doing my own "personal work" with a counselor (after she left), the focus changed from "her" to "me".  Why did I stay? What was it within me, that kept me engaged in an unhealthy relationship?  As many of us learn over time, we find ourselves often repeating unhealthy relationships.  Typically our own "self esteem" is lacking, often combined with being a "fixer"; a "rescuer"; trying to find our own sense of worth through helping others. From your own personal assessment, it seems you are aware of this tendency within yourself.

"She started schema therapy very recently, which is a good step, but her promise that this will never happen again is very unlikely, as she said the same a month ago where I also was at the point of leaving."
My "ex" did work on herself (professional help), yet it seemed we inevitably ended up in the same place all-too-often.  I had subsequently learned from all my reading on BPD, and from discussions with my T, that "ideally" it is best for them during treatment if they are "not" in a relationship (I know there are exceptions).  We often trigger their behavior (even when we may not realize it), therefore it can be counterproductive towards their own therapy.

"I feel empty by now. I feel physically and emotionally exhausted and I started to neglect other things in my life"
This is very typical.  It becomes paramount for us to understand, that given the nature of BPD, this is how it will go and why you may really need to consider if this is worth it.  For those that are married and with children, there is a strong motivation to try to stay together and make things better.  For those that are free to end things any time, without those constraints, it simply begs the question of "why stay", especially when it is clear that we are "way over our heads".

All the Best

[ForeverDad]

I will echo everyone.  Arjay noted "according to her".  I especially picked up on that.  Unless you've gotten to know her ex-spouse, then all you know about him is what she is telling you.  And with her being mentally unstable and having erratic possibly biased perceptions, you know what she relates is not the whole truth.

"The father rejected the child after it was born for the first two years."  More likely her perceptions of her husband changed after the birth of their child.

I've been there, done that.  I was married for over a decade, then we had a child.  I thought it would make her happy to see our child discovering life.  Oops, having a child does not fix serious mental health or emotional issues, it just makes everything vastly more complicated.  After he was born she then saw me as more than a husband, I was also a father, and she began comparing me to her abuser stepfather.  The marriage imploded all too quickly and we were in and out of the court system for 8 years before finally custody and parenting schedule worked.  (Worked how? I ended up with full custody and majority parenting time during the school year.)

If you do not end your relationship then I suggest you not have children with her.  Be the person ensuring birth control.  Or else in years to come she will claim she had two ex-husbands who rejected their children with her.

[cloned2bewild]

Thanks everyone for your input  

I am 38 and have had no stable relationship since I was 23. That was the time I separated from my former GF that I met when I was 15. There were many attempts for something stable after that and at one point you obviously can't deny anymore that it has something to do with you. Honestly, if I look back I would love to blame all  my partners, as it would be the easier way out, but actually I am not sure how toxic I behaved myself. One thing that I heard over and over again is my tendency to be critical with others and have huge expectations on them and being very needy at times on the contrary. I can get very upset myself when I feel rejected, not taken care of, but I learnt not acting it out (as much) anymore. That only happens in really close relationships though. As a therapist I stay calm and do a good job most of the time, I reckon. Also with friends.

After many breakups in my life I feel like I can't really trust no one anymore and that I am doomed to be alone my entire life, which is my biggest fear. Before I met my current partner, I was single, more or less for almost four years. Despite that I at one point could kind of just live by myself there were episodes of deep dread about being on my own. It was more managing it, rather than thriving. I am sure my mother was highly emotionally unstable. How would it be possible not to absorb that? The literature says that people who have a tendency for love addiction have also many BPD parts within themselves. I can really relate to that. I could fall in love with someone from one second to the next, with strangers and have all kinds of fantasies about them. I also have a history of drug and alcohol abuse in my adolescence and 20's, that I could overcome and also having affairs and a great "sensitity" to other people's feelings. I do very well know the ambivalence of fear between feeling too close/stable and too distant/alone and oscillating between the two.

My partner and I have a couples session lined up next week, that was planned for a while and I will have a look of the input a therapist can give. Also she has her therapy now, I have my own. We have not seen each other for 10 days and had a few reflective talks on the phone that left a lot of space for my hurt feelings and anger. She listened to it and apologized many times. She says she is willing to put in the effort to make a significant change and doesn't want to act out her anger with me anymore. I am tempted to give it a last chance, but not sure yet. She says, she understands it would take me a while to gain trust in her again. I don't know what will happen.

I got to know the father on a few occasions, he seems quite cold and distant to me, not more I can say. I saw a few text messages from him that were very disrespectful. Also his co-parenting behaviour was very un-cooperative, like not answering messages, not coming to counselling sessions my GF has arranged, but it got better. I do not plan on having children, but I really like the daughter of her. Both, him and my GF seem really engaged and loving parents, that I can tell. She never got that unjustifiably angry with her daughter and we spent quite some time together like holidays, etc.

[SaltyDawg]

  TRIGGER WARNING! 

I am going to be incredibly blunt - that's my nature.  I am going to highlight portions of your text that stand out to me, and I will reflect them back to you in the context of being BPD.  The reason I am reflecting back to you in this manner is that you said, "that people who have a tendency for love addiction have also many BPD parts within themselves."

I am 38 and have had no stable relationship since I was 23.
Look at Symptom #2 of BPD.

Honestly, if I look back I would love to blame all  my partners, as it would be the easier way out, but actually I am not sure how toxic I behaved myself. One thing that I heard over and over again is my tendency to be critical with others and have huge expectations on them and being very needy at times on the contrary. I can get very upset myself when I feel rejected, not taken care of, but I learnt not acting it out (as much) anymore. That only happens in really close relationships though.
You know that something is wrong, but cannot put your finger on it.  You attempted to self-evaluate, and there are some co-dependent tendencies there which is part of being BPD.  You also have 'huge expectations', is this all or nothing [black/white] thinking?  This also only/predominately happens with your favorite person, a.k.a. 'really close relationships'.

After many breakups in my life I feel like I can't really trust no one anymore and that I am doomed to be alone my entire life, which is my biggest fear. Before I met my current partner, I was single, more or less for almost four years. Despite that I at one point could kind of just live by myself there were episodes of deep dread about being on my own.
Look at Symptom #1, this is the 'hallmark' of being BPD.  After visiting and studying a BPD Facebook group for and by borderlines, the 'trust' issue is a common theme that I have observed of BPD regarding their partners and/or favorite person [FP].

I am sure my mother was highly emotionally unstable. How would it be possible not to absorb that? The literature says that people who have a tendency for love addiction have also many BPD parts within themselves. I can really relate to that. I could fall in love with someone from one second to the next, with strangers and have all kinds of fantasies about them. I also have a history of drug and alcohol abuse in my adolescence and 20's, that I could overcome and also having affairs and a great "sensitity" to other people's feelings. I do very well know the ambivalence of fear between feeling too close/stable and too distant/alone and oscillating between the two.
Perhaps you are already 'self-aware'; however, being a MHP, you are also in denial.  What you are describing are all classic traits of BPD in your self-awareness.  Talk to your individual T, and have them evaluate yourself or arrange for a psych eval for yourself.  Also, look at the DSM-V and look at the other traits of BPD and see how many you can relate to.  Also, look at 'quiet' BPD in other literature [not in the DSM], and see if you can relate.  With your mum having her own mental health issues, there is a good chance that there is an environmental component to it as well.

My partner and I have a couples session lined up next week, that was planned for a while and I will have a look of the input a therapist can give. Also she has her therapy now, I have my own.
Therapy for everyone is good.  Make sure that they are familiar with BPD/high-conflict relationships as many won't deal with borderlines.

Please do a 'deep dive' on your own issues.  Once you more fully understand those issues, then you can change/modify those issues in order to make a more pleasant environment for everyone involved.  Otherwise, your relationship issues may very well be 'rinse and repeat'.

[Notwendy]

Since you are a mental health professional, you are probably already aware that our family of origin dynamic influences our romantic relationships and that we emotionally match our partners in some ways ( not necessarily the same ).

While you recognize there are some traits similar to BPD, one question would be- are they learned behaviors- learned emotional responses that helped you adapt to your childhood environment- or are they more fixed like a personality disorder. These have sometimes been (negatively) referred to as "fleas". However, learned behaviors can be unlearned while a PD is more fixed.


You also know that any self work on your own issues helps all relationships. It's good that you and your GF are both in counseling and hopefully this will give you some clarity about the relationship- and you.

[cloned2bewild]

@SaltyDawg:
Thanks for your input here, I will keep on considering it. As I mentioned I am aware of these parts inside of myself and in ongoing therapy. I worked with BPD patients for a while in a project quite closely. Neither I or my GF would be in any way comparable to the extremes there. So, I am not sure if that would be enough to diagnose me with BPD, the criteria are kind of vague anyway, but of course I can detect some elements and tendencies, maybe also some narcissistic elements, like occasional entitlement and so on. Some parts like the impulsivity and extreme anger e.g. don't match at all, I am quite orderly and compulsive and not known for acting unpredictably, rather showing too little emotions, being too rigid and being very controlled. My partner told me it's hard to know when I am angry actually and it would be easier if she knew so, she said. Also friendships and work relationships have been pretty stable, except a few occasions. Actually, because my family was so dysfunctional, friendships were always very important for me. My issues are very much concentrated on romantic relationships. I considered myself a long time a co-dependent and love-addict in recovery. Co-dependence is a phenomenon that has a lot of overlap also with BPD of course. But also with other disorders and mental health problems. I consider myself also as complex traumatised due to neglect and emotional abuse in my childhood. That I've had an 8 year long relationship in the beginning of my "love career" is somehow extreme for the 15 years to follow. The longest was another four year long relationship that was quite unstable. Most of my attempts all under one year. I think my own struggles make me a better therapist, being able to relate and to be honest I do not know any MHP with a functional family background.

@Notwendy:
It's hard to tell if it is the "fleas" or more from my personality. I am pretty sure that I have some emotional-unstable parts to my personality, like everyone, but probably above average. It's not all bad, I have been quite an intense person my whole life, being bored by smalltalk and quite sensitive and self-aware and a loyal friend my whole life. And surely a continuation of opening up to new people and going through so many romantic break-ups has led me to some commitment and attachment phobic elements that I learned during the last two decades. I should stick to vulnerability and not pretend that I am a no burned child, clearly the closer the relationship, the more insecure I become. The most empowering part is to not see yourself as the victim of another person, adress your own parts that contribute to the relationship and draw boundaries where you don't.

[SaltyDawg]

You're welcome.  I will make a few additional observations from what I have learned - correct me if I am wrong, as I am still learning.  However, I do feel that I have a decent grasp on the topic as I have been validated by an expert in the first person in this after reading up extensively on it, and studying diagnosed individuals in their support group in an effort on learning how the borderline mind thinks, behaves, and perceives.

Like all mental disorders, they vary in intensity.  Some are high functioning invisibles [mild], others are severely debilitating conventionals [extreme].  Most of the ones seen in a clinical setting are extreme.  [Just like only those who are extremely addicted to alcohol/drugs will you find in a clinical setting as well]  According to some studies, only 1/4 of diagnosable BPDs are actually diagnosed, leaving 3/4 without a diagnosis, and without treatment.  My pwBPD is my uBPDw whom I would consider 'moderate'.  I also suggested looking at the 'quiet' borderline as they present a bit differently.  If you don't have any other conflicted relationships (co-workers, bosses, family members, etc.); you may want to examine one or more of the 16 variations of OCPD [not OCD which is similar in name only] as it too presents similarly to a quiet BPD in the manner of that you spoke of even though it is in a different cluster C vs B.

Everyone has BPD/NPD traits - and whether or not they raise the level of being diagnosable that varies from clinician to clinician.  Also, BPD is very difficult to diagnose, as it presents in many different ways.

A gentle reminder BPD only requires 5/9 symptoms to be present, and OCPD only requires 4/8 from the DSM-V.

[Notwendy]

The most empowering part is to not see yourself as the victim of another person, address your own parts that contribute to the relationship and draw boundaries where you don't.

I absolutely agree with this and it's something I learned as, having a BPD mother, I have had some "flea baths" ( therapy) to address any behaviors I wanted to change. We weren't responsible for what we learned as children but as adults we have the choice to look at ourselves. It's not easy sometimes but it's a good thing. It's a plus that you are willing to do that.

[cloned2bewild]

@SaltyDawg:
Thanks for your further input. I live in Europe, so we use the ICD-10/11 here, but I know the DSM as well. I studied clinical psychology for five years and did an eight year post-grad training. Approaches like DBT are focussed on skills and symptom reduction. When the structural level is very low, nothing else would work because the reflection capabilities are not developed enoughed. Like I said, neither my GF or I would fit that category. I consider it for someone with a higher level of structure to be important to understand what happens on the inside, which parts are playing out at which time. In my case for instance I had a highly narcissistic, alcoholic mother that didn't love me but idealized and discounted me my whole life until she started her own therapy and became sober. Idealization and devaluation are also inside of me as a perpetrator/victim introject. I understand that I could also look into OCPD, at one point I am struggling though with the use of it, because it doesn't imply any specific treatment. I can tell you after years of introspection, that from the outside I might look well put together, it took me a while though to understand that I developed this in my life to somehow control the inner chaos and insecurity inside of me. And I attract people who are maybe not so secretive about it.

I believe firmly, that when someone is diagnosed with BPD and someone else stays with them, sometimes for decades, it would be cheating to pathologize only one half of the relationship. In the literature and on the internet there are various ressources these days that are directed towards the "healthy" people for help with their "unhealthy" personality disordered partner. Is that realistic though? I see that there is abuse happening, in some cases very clearly. And when you draw boundaries and there is no improvement I guess you can only leave. But what attracted you in the first place and where are your parts playing a role is a way more powerful question to ask than who is the healthy one?

In my case, I will have to deeply look into my own insecurities and be open about them with my partner in couples therapy. I think I will otherwise have another 15 years of unstable relationships, which as a notion, gives me the creeps. As souvereign as I might look on the outside, I think it's an image that I like to project and protect.

[Notwendy]

In my case for instance I had a highly narcissistic, alcoholic mother that didn't love me but idealized and discounted me my whole life until she started her own therapy and became sober. 

I believe firmly, that when someone is diagnosed with BPD and someone else stays with them, sometimes for decades, it would be cheating to pathologize only one half of the relationship.

In my case, I will have to deeply look into my own insecurities and be open about them with my partner in couples therapy.

I think you have answered your own question. You see there are issues with your partner and also yourself, and don't see major deal breakers in forging ahead to work on them and you choose to continue to work on these. As you said before- we aren't victims, we have choices and when we understand that we are making a choice, that is not from victim perspective.

I also agree there's dual issues with both partners. It is possible to work on our side of things both in and out of a relationship. It's a personal choice either way and an individual one as situations are different.

One thing that I learned in ACA 12 step groups is how similar the family dynamics in families with a person with alcohol addiction are to families with a person with BPD. While BPD behavior is problematic, enabling behavior can be too. In addition, the "laundry list" in ACA is descriptive of some behaviors learned by children of alcoholics. It seems to fit some of them for children with BPD parents too- so you and your GF may relate to this. You are probably familiar with this from your education. I wasn't until I attended that group meeting.