How much to help with car

[M-T]

My BPD daughter is 22 and currently lives on the East coast, while we live on the West coast. She has been there about 10 months, having moved there because she basically burnt all of her bridges here and we finally held boundaries with her in regards to staying in our house and money. She went to live with her grandma on her mom's side (I'm stepmom but raised her since she was 9 with my husband), left to live with her cousin for a couple months, and now lives with a friend. I think she has likely paid rent twice in that time.

Just like living situations, she changes jobs quite often - she's had 4 or 5 jobs just in that 9 months. She does manage to always find a job, sometimes with short breaks in between, but obviously doesn't do well at sticking around and being consistent. She's always been this way with work. She always finds something wrong others are doing or some injustice done against her.

Anyhow, we told her that we would help her with buying a car when she shows she is able to be consistent in working so she can ensure that she can pay for her car insurance and maintenance. Right now, I honestly don't know how realistic this expectation is. She was just in the hospital a couple weeks ago for her mental health and finally started taking medication again. When she was living with us, we attempted to keep her consistently on medication but she would always give it up, saying it didn't work. So I am relieved that she decided on her own to do this. However, more and more I wonder if she will need to look into collecting disability.

I know that nobody can really answer these questions for our specific situation but here it goes anyway. Generally, just wondering how you have supported your BPD adult child with car. In the past, she went uninsured for a long time and it was very worrisome. She knowingly bought a car that had engine issues. Inconsistently paid us for insurance.

She feels she can work more consistently with a car and that is probably partly true. However, she's not showing consistency in working so can she actually pay for insurance? Do we put her on our insurance so that it will be more affordable for her? But then, that leaves us financially entangled, which we have found to be ... very bad. Or make her seek her own insurance and risk that she's not covered at all or can't keep up? Should we set a certain amount of time she needs to show consistent work or workplace? Have her show us a certain amount of money has been saved up? Or am I just crazy thinking that she'll ever be able to "adult" and just pay for it if we're able. Or make her pay us a portion to start and ramp up over time? Again...she may not follow through. Then I guess we'd just have to drop her from insurance or pay up.

Thanks, if anything, for listening.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Notwendy]

I think the balance between assisting when there is a known mental illness and not enabling is difficult- there may not be one right answer to this dilemma. The rules for insurance may answer some of these questions as I think they are state specific. In general, one can not have an adult child on a policy if that child is out of state, unless they are enrolled in school full time and your state is their permanent residence. Otherwise, the car has to be in their name and they have to have their own policy. If this is the rule in your state, then that answers the insurance question.

I think not having a car can be limiting in an area where there isn't a lot of public transportation so unless she's in a major city it's likely she'd use a car to get to work.

What you decide may be more about your own limits and boundaries and how much risk you wish to take with your own finances- whatever you can manage. Whatever boundary you choose- you need to stick with it, or she learns she can run out of money and come to you. I think that your ability to hold this boundary is more important than what boundary you decide on with her and so you need to choose the one you know you can manage.

One idea, if it is in your budget to do so, is to pay for the down payment on the car and agree to X months of coverage of car and her own insurance policy. The car, and the policy are in her name. You do not co-sign the loan- or the policy or you become liable if she defaults. As to the money, you forward this to her in increments, not all at once, so she isn't handling a large sum at one time.

You also decide the price range for the car and whether or not it's a used or new car- but one in good condition or with a warranty to avoid repair costs.

The X months is up to you. I don't think that matters as long as it's the X you can hold to and can afford, because, you will need to be able to manage your own feelings if she doesn't hold her end of the agreement. The idea that she might lapse on car payments or drive without insurance is worrisome- but she's an adult and is responsible for the consequences of her actions. If you have not cosigned anything- this would be her responsibility. She needs a job to be able to take over the car payments. If she doesn't keep her job, the car will be repossessed. That is the natural consequence of this situation- for anyone. She can experience this.

If it becomes apparent she's not capable of holding a job, due to her mental illness, then disability is the only other route, unless you wish to support her indefinitely or she finds a spouse to do that. If you feel you need to try the car first, that's a choice too. The most important part is your ability to maintain your boundary with this agreement: you get X months of car payments and insurance and then, you must maintain them yourself and you stick to the X otherwise she learns the boundary doesn't mean anything.

My perspective is from observing how my BPD mother handles money. I know that she is incapable of managing a job due to her BPD. This was not apparent when my parents were married as at that time, women didn't work outside the home- and that was the norm. So her not having a job wasn't unusual. My father supported her, but he also enabled her with her spending to the point where he was stressed about finances and we had other financial limitations.

Fortunately, he saved well for their retirement and when he passed away, she had enough income for her needs but due to her spending, she's now facing limitations. We realize this is the natural consequences of such behavior- if you spend all your money, then you are not able to pay for things you need. While you are facing the dilemma of how much do you let your D experience the natural consequences of her behavior without so much harm that you are unable to cope- because you are her parent and you care about her- we - adult children- have similar concerns for our BPD mother.  We also have our own families to support and can't put that at risk. Neither can you. You need to be saving for your own retirement and not allow your D to diminish savings that you need either now or in the future.

We have tried to intervene and assist my BPD mother with managing her income but she has refused to allow us to do that. Seeing her face the consequences of her financial decisions is distressing.  Yet unless she experiences some of them, her spending will lead her to more serious consequences that we don't wish for her. She does have a monthly income that could well meet her needs if she makes choices within her income. For your D, it may be that disability is needed for this to be possible for her. You may choose to supplement it but your D needs to have some kind of income for her needs if she's not able to work.

Holding this kind of boundary is difficult, it will tug at your feelings, you will feel as if you are the bad person here, but it's the need to have money that motivates someone to have a job and providing that money takes away the motivator so this needs to be arranged in a way you feel gives your D a start, but then leaves the responsibility to her. If it becomes evident that she need to be on disability payments, then you can pursue that route.  

[M-T]

Thank you for your response Notwendy. I appreciate your time and thoughtfulness. It was very helpful to get your perspective. I hadn't even thought about the possibility she couldn't be on our insurance and so that actually comes with some relief. One less decision to make and to contemplate. We were planning on buying the car outright but only once we see she is working consistently so that she can take care of the insurance payments/maintenance on her own.

"I think that your ability to hold this boundary is more important than what boundary you decide on with her and so you need to choose the one you know you can manage." Yes, of course! Thanks for this reminder. I think we do need to perhaps be more specific about what is clear evidence/a goal for "consistent work". It's hard to come up with a good solution, though, especially with her being so far away. Is 3 months long enough to constitute consistent work? Not really with the BPD. How does she prove it? She could lie to us about working. She's done it before. Do we ask to see that she's saved a certain amount of money? Sounds good, but potentially invasive asking for that evidence. Also, she could borrow money at last minute for proof. Perhaps we have her send us money each month that we hold for her? Then we are financially entangled which is problematic and she will likely get angry at such an arrangement.

I guess this is the ongoing struggle of loving someone with BPD...so many scenarios to consider, so many past actions that color your expectations negatively (or realistically), so hard even when you want to help.

[Notwendy]

We were planning on buying the car outright but only once we see she is working consistently so that she can take care of the insurance payments/maintenance on her own.

"I think that your ability to hold this boundary is more important than what boundary you decide on with her and so you need to choose the one you know you can manage." Yes, of course! Thanks for this reminder. I think we do need to perhaps be more specific about what is clear evidence/a goal for "consistent work".

I guess this is the ongoing struggle of loving someone with BPD...so many scenarios to consider, so many past actions that color your expectations negatively (or realistically), so hard even when you want to help.

From my own experience with my mother, and also time in co-dependency (CODA, ACA- these work with BPD dynamics too) I have learned that the best way for someone to learn responsibility ( to the best of their ability) is to not stand between them and the natural consequences of their behavior.

For instance, if a child forgets their homework, let them face the teacher, do not go to school and bring them the homework. If a child breaks a toy, well then they don't have the toy.

Of course, we stand in between harmful natural circumstances and someone we care about if possible, but when it comes to adults, we don't have a lot of control of all their behavior decisions.

For a behavior to persist- the payoff (meeting a need or want)  needs to be greater than the "cost" of the behavior. This is true for every living creature. Pavlov's dog will push a lever to get a treat. Kids will pick up their toys if they want to go to the playground.

For your daughter to work- work needs to be paired with the payoff- which is money to get what she wants or needs. It's the same for most people. How many of us would go to work every day if someone was providing the money for all we wanted or needed? Even if we like our jobs, we have to be able to tolerate aspects we don't like- maybe an annoying co-worker or task we don't like, but we don't walk off the job because we need the paycheck.

For this lesson to be effective, you need to get out of the way of her natural consequences to the extent you are able to because, for years, your D has learned how to get what she wants from you and due to your feelings for her, you are going to cave long before an employer, or landlord, or bank. So, no, I don't think trying to control or get accountability with her finances is going to work. She will push your limits and you will cave. You can't win this with her because, when it comes to pushing you, she will go farther than you can emotionally handle.

I know this because, one of the hardest things to do is say "no" to my BPD mother. She knows how to push our limits of empathy to where we can't handle it, either by being mean, abusive or waify- and she is elderly and one can only handle the idea that we are being mean or neglectful to an elderly mother- just like you can't handle being too mean to your own child. The relationship makes us the worst choice to hold them accountable.

In order for your D to have the motivation to get a job, she needs to want something to earn the money for. For many people, we put our basic needs first. For someone with emotional immaturity, they see their wants as a priority. If you had $5 to go to the store, you would buy something you needed first. A child with $5 in the store would buy candy.

Your D has her basic needs provided for her. That is understandable as you could not have her homeless and on the streets and sleep at night. She isn't motivated to get a job in order to have shelter, or water, or heat - there's no motivation to work to attain these as she has them provided. You also emotionally could not hold the line on this if she didn't have them.

So what does motivate her? If she were 4 years old and having a tantrum in a store because she wanted you to buy a toy for her, could you say no? Probably because, she doesn't need the toy and you don't want to reinforce/enable that she gets what she wants by having a tantrum. With an adult person with BPD - these tantrums have already been working for them. My mother does this, all her family has enabled it. She has no motivation to stop- it works for her.

So you need to figure out your D's wants and harness that motivation and then get out of the way. It would be better if she had a car loan she was responsible for, but she can not qualify for one without a job. So if you provide the car, what can she want that she'd need to pay for? Gasoline is one item.

What else does she want? Clothes? Make up?, her cell phone? It's her highest wants that are motivating to her, and these are the largest motivators for her to get a job, not her responsibilities.

Car insurance won't motivate her. That's no fun to spend money on and she won't see any reward for paying for it. I think that's a set up for failure.

If you want to provide the car- and are willing to risk the cost of that as she may not keep up with car maintenance- then she's unlikely to be motivated to cover insurance. Can you emotionally handle her letting it lapse without giving in? If not, you need to cover it too as giving in is going to reinforce that you will do that.

What does she want that you can say no to? Put these on the line- the cell phone, clothes, hair products, hair cuts, nails- who is paying for these things if she doesn't have a job? That may be where to start with her. And you need to get grandma on board too. That's hard as grandma is on the front line with her. You can't control how much she has deposited in the bank- the control is that it needs to match what she wants. If the cell phone bill is X per month, and she wants the phone, then she needs to have at least that much in the bank.

You have to consider your own needs too. Will you support your D to the extent that you deplete your savings and future retirement? Because your D wouldn't care if you did and neither would my BPD mother care if she did that. They are thinking of their own needs first. What you expect is a mutual consideration of your own well being. I don't think that's how they think- they are overwhelmed with their own feelings and getting their needs met. It's a lot easier to spend your money, and grandma's money than to get a job. What can you do to connect her wants with the need for a paycheck?

As to the interval to find a job, that also has to be what you can manage. And what is her skill set for getting a job? You can't make the requirement too far out or it won't motivate her. Maybe increments- in 3 months you will need to pay for your clothes and haircuts, in 6 months you need to pay for your phone ( she would need the phone to communicate with employers). If you can't handle her not having a phone emotionally ( as she'd be out of reach or for safety) don't put that on the "will not pay" list as you can't hold a boundary on that. Decide what you can say no to and start there.

These are some ideas - but you need a plan that works for you. I also suggest counseling for you to have support for your feelings as well as have someone point out where your caring about your D is also enabling her. Sometimes we can't see it if we are emotionally invested.

[M-T]

Thank you again, this continues to be a helpful conversation. You make some really good points here: "What you expect is a mutual consideration of your own well being. I don't think that's how they think- they are overwhelmed with their own feelings and getting their needs met." This is very important for me to remember. And this should be my money mantra with her: "What can you do to connect her wants with the need for a paycheck?"

A couple things: I do go to therapy regularly and have for years. Otherwise, I'm not sure how I would have survived the last 5 years! It has helped me a lot with setting boundaries with my D and processing grief and believing I've done everything I can despite not feeling that way much of the time. But I still struggle to know what to do in the moment and I'm susceptible to the manipulation/cries for empathy and help.

We actually don't, at this time, pay for her housing due to past actions and following through with boundaries we set due to lots of broken promises. She has still managed to pay only a couple months rent in the last year. We pay for her health insurance, her phone (I do consider this safety), her meds (when she actually takes them) and therapy (if she goes); and we help her with money on occasion, and I just randomly send her grocery store gift cards, etc (not regularly though). The phone for sure would be a motivator, because she is addicted to that thing. But again, I don't want her to be without a phone so I'm fine paying for that.

So we are trying to help her take responsibility for adult life. I don't know to what degree her grandma and mom help her...we don't communicate with them and I don't ask her since it's not really my business. I see how it would be a more helpful lesson/motivator to require her to pay for her car, rather than her insurance. I have considered just covering insurance for her. My husband and I talked about spending less on the car in order to help pay for insurance. But in the end, for better or worse, we've made a promise (with the requirement of a steady job) and we do need to keep it. We may be able to rearrange the agreement a bit...hold her accountable for making car payments if we agree to pay insurance. Also, trying to help her buy a car from 3,000 miles away is the next huge hurdle.

Thanks again Notwendy.

[Notwendy]

It sounds like you aren't covering all her costs. The fact that grandma and mother are probably helping is both good for you- you are not covering all her expenses and also puts more potential enablers in the mix. Since you are all not communicating and not all on the same page, you can only manage your part. If their contributions reduce the motivation for her to keep a job, there's not a lot you can do on your part to enforce this. Using the car or insurance as leverage will become a battle of wills, which she will win if you become the enforcer, not the bank.

You really can't control someone else and her decisions. All you can control is your part in this and how much you want to financially do. The boundary is on your money. The only boundaries that are effective are the ones you can uphold. Otherwise you just reinforce her pushing at them and she will win at this stand off.

The items you are paying for are not high motivators for her to work, but they are important to you. You need to know she is safe, has medical insurance, and a way to communicate, all which stem from your own values not hers. That's OK- if our decisions line up with our own values then we don't tend to have problems with us.

The hard one for you is the car, which you promised her and if so, then follow through on that. I don't think you have much leverage with this. Car insurance doesn't motivate her. Having the car does, but she can't get her own car loan. My own opinion is that, once she has the car, which you have agreed to, you don't have much leverage with her with this. What you have done/promised so far is water under the bridge but you can decide from this point forward.

She's not going to pay you back for the car payments and you can't fly out there to repossess it if she doesn't as you don't have the leverage the bank does. She won't have any motivation to pay for insurance- that's not a priority for her. She will need money for gasoline but may also be able to get that from mother or grandmother.

The only thing you can do on your end is decide what you will pay for and what you won't. How she gets money for other things is up to her and that isn't something you can control.

If you committed to the car, the cost is on you, and the insurance but budget accordingly. What can you limit? Don't give her spending money, don't send grocery cards. If you don't feel comfortable stopping this all at once, choose a limit of time. Connect it to the car. "we have provided a car, but you will need to come up with the way to get the money for gas, and other related expenses, and your own spending money as of this "date"_____________. We love you and want to see you be able to earn the money to buy all you need and hope this car helps you do this.

Then- other than the items you feel are important to cover for your own reasons- safety, communication- you reduce paying for the other items you are covering.