Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 28, 2024, 03:58:41 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
84
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Advice Needed: Escalation in Dysregulation / Kids  (Read 799 times)
LifewithEase
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 129


« on: February 05, 2023, 09:03:52 AM »

Hi All,

It is time for me to ask for advice. I need support, perspective from all of you.

TLDR:

uBPDw and I were to start next stage of productive couples therapy. These sessions will focus more on emotional, family, [her] behavior and firmly held narratives. uBPDw clearly agreed but then later set unacceptable conditions: before CT continues we'd need to engage a financial mediator and I'd have to sign a Postnuptial Agreement. I told my uBPDw yesterday these conditions were unacceptable. As expected, she dysregulated very hard. At 2am, she sent me an email:

School Break

I am taking the kids away for two nights and three days over February break. You are not welcome to join us. If you would like to make comparable plans with them, let’s discuss. But you are not invited or welcome to join us in [MtnVacationTown].


How should I respond?

I can't tell if this is just high level dysregulation from intense overnight circular rumination. I know she is being her typical punitive self, generally when she can't control the situation. Or something more threatening that I should deal with differently?

I can:

A. Ignore, do not respond
B. Ask the kids how they imagine the trip
C. Decide not to go, use the time to focus on my necessary job search
D. Push back hard by replying [I have no idea how best to do this]
E. Wait a few days or week to discuss
F. Combination
G. Something else?

I need your help because I'm exhausted and burned out. Your perspectives and reminders would be helpful.

Thanks!


Longer (for background and to get it off my chest):

The last time I updated we were in CT with my uBPDw (high functioning petulant BPD). It was bumpy but going well.

The CT was using DBT without saying it. The CT has been masterful at validating and keeping my uBPDw engaged. For example, at the beginning and at the end of every session, the CT spends a lot of time and thoughtful energy giving my uBPDw the option of not proceeding, getting consent. My wife has three times had a fit about not going back yet she continues to show up.

We finally got to the point where we all agreed to dive deeper into the behaviors, emotions, and backgrounds that are driving our [in my opinion, false] narratives. The CT does not know about her previous divorce, her mother's attempted suicide, her estrangement from her father who had serious mental health issues, as did the brother and aunt among other things. I'm sure very scary for my uBPDw.

Then, as many of you would/have predicted my wife decided blow it all up.  How? Decided to postpone the start of this next stage of couples therapy and laid down unrealistic and unacceptable conditions.

Maybe for another thread, but a big part of how my uBPDw controls me is with financial isolation (you might remember my past post about her threatening to remove me from family health insurance). I am financially dependent on her, for now. I've worked for myself for the last 4 years. Both because of my own professional goals but also to become more financial independent, I've scaled down the work to focus on finding a new job. Her conditions were that we engage with a financial mediator to split the finances and for me to sign a Postnuptial Agreement.

After a week of thinking about it and discussing with my therapist and a close friend, it confirmed that these were unacceptable, abusive, and a way of getting out of the truly hard work in couples therapy.

So yesterday we had our sit down meeting (in a very rare time when the kids were out of the house) and I told her I was uncomfortable with both conditions, I felt it was not in my interest, my kids or on the promise we made to create more harmony in the household. I suggested an alternative.

As expected, she dysregulated pretty hard. We know pBPD do not like being disagreed with or their inability to have a normal adult conversation. I remained calm. I stuck to a very short bullet list of things I was going to share. I validated her. I did active listening. It only made her worse. Again, no surprise. She said a lot and came at me at many angels. I give myself 4 of 5 stars in my mindfulness, protecting myself, and handling the situation.

At the height, she told me that I was a "financial rapist." Now mind you, that is very provocative but we all know from our own experience and from BPDfamily this is normal. It is also an escalation of the term she uses, including during CT, that I'm a financial predator. I actually don't mind these accusations because they remind me of the mental illness I'm dealing with. They do impact me deeply of course.

Ok, the advice I need from you all:

Last night, as expected she split, gave me the silent treatment, did some low level alienation with the kids. Was nice to me exactly three times when she needed some help. But generally went to bed quietly full of rage.

This morning I woke up to an email she sent at 2am:

School Break

I am taking the kids away for two nights and three days over February break. You are not welcome to join us. If you would like to make comparable plans with them, let’s discuss. But you are not invited or welcome to join us in [MtnVacationTown].


How should I respond?

I can't tell if this is just high level dysregulation from intense overnight circular rumination. I know she is being her typical punitive self, generally when she can't control the situation. Or something more threatening that I should deal with differently?

I can:

A. Ignore, do not respond
B. Ask the kids how they imagine the trip
C. Decide not to go, use the time to focus on my necessary job search
D. Push back hard by replying [I have no idea how best to do this]
E. Wait a few days or week to discuss
F. Combination
G. Something else?

I need your help because I'm exhausted and burned out. Your perspectives and reminders would be helpful.

Thanks!
Logged
BigOof
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Never-ending divorce
Posts: 376



« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2023, 01:12:39 PM »

You need to call her bluff and plan your own vacation with the kids. Also, you should jump at the opportunity to catch up with family or friends during her vacation.

This is a gift. Doesn't have to be a combative situation.
Logged
ForeverDad
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18071


You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2023, 01:26:52 PM »

At the height, she told me that I was a "financial rapist." ...  It is also an escalation of the term she uses, including during CT, that I'm a financial predator.

This set my spidey senses tingling.  It is a small step from financial predator to financial rapist.  It is another small step from financial rapist to rapist.  This should be addressed in CT and with your own counselor.

This is no doubt an aspect of her demanding a postnupial agreement.  If her terms are onerous and unfair, then of course you declined.

If it does end up in court with a contested divorce, it will also feel unfair regardless how the court decides, however it will probably be "less unfair" than her terms.

As for her weekend away, there is little you can do to stop her plans unless the therapists would view her as endangering the children.  Courts, police and other associated professionals have a presumption that in a marriage, unless there are court orders stating differently, both parents have equal custody and parenting rights.  And any disagreements go to mediation, some sort of binding mediation or family court.  Otherwise it's that old saying, "possession is 9/10 of the law".  Oh, my...

I recall when my ex failed to collect our son from after school daycare that she brought police to my door and demanded she get him.  We already had a court order on parenting, so all the officer did was try to resolve the dispute - police hate "incidents" - and as he and she left he advised, "Fix this in court."

How do you respond?  I'm assuming there are no court orders at this time.  Sadly and for good reason, you can't force yourself on them in her weekend away.  Sadly too, she's likely to badmouth you to the kids.

What you can do, perhaps after bouncing this off the therapists, is to state if that is her wish then you too will be taking the kids on your own weekend away as well at another date.  Of course to somewhere the kids will enjoy.  I guess this would be "G. something else".  Of course, she is very likely to try to sabotage your reciprocal weekend away.

Yes, this may appear as "tit for tat" but don't ever say such a triggering phrase.  All you are doing is affirming your own time with the kids, just as she wanted for herself.  Even so, this might elevate the level of her resistance and who knows what she will retaliate with next.  Is there time before her weekend away for the Ts to step in?

I'll expect others will step in with their thoughts too.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2023, 01:32:27 PM by ForeverDad » Logged

Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2023, 04:31:10 PM »

There's a lot to untangle here, but I will give it a try.

There are three components here:

Financial- your financial dependence on your wife. I understand this situation and it's actually common for families to divide up the tasks of running a family unit. One parent focuses on earning the income for the family needs. The other one focuses on doing the daily tasks in the home that the family needs, that the other person is not able to do when they are away from the home. These tasks do not bring in an income, but they are work none the less. If there's a normal and emotionally healthy relationship between both parents, this can work. The problem is- the relationship is disordered.

One thing I learned growing up with a BPD parent is to not give over control of something essential to you to a disordered person. For my mother, money is a means of control. My goal as a teen, was to go to college and then become financially independent of my parents. It was the only way to not be controlled by an emotionally unstable person.

Children: In addition to your own well being, children are a major emotional investment for you and their well being is a priority.

Marriage Counseling: You are invested in your marriage, and this is important to you, but let's put these in order of priority:

The most important need is financial for your own survival. The most important people to look out for here are the children. They are dependent on you.

The last, is your wife and your marriage. Yes, it's important to you, but when it all comes down to it, she doesn't really need you as far as her own survival. If you all split up today, and had nothing, survival wise- she's going to be just fine. So while MC matters to you, it may not really matter to her as much apparently. For MC to really work, it needs to matter to both of you. I think she's shown you what her priority is:

Control

It's financial control over you. because she wants control.  And the only way to not be subjected to her control is for you to not need her income.

What made her dysregulate? You not agreeing to something that involved the money because, money= control for her and her # emotional need is control. and when you refused this, this interfered with her #1 priority.

When one means of control doesn't work, the next step is to get control by making her wish contingent on something else you are invested in- so she makes her wish contingent on these other two things.

If you don't sign this, I won't do MC. And since you didn't sign this, I am taking the kids on vacation without you.

My BPD mother has done similar things if I say no to her request. Finances don't work as I am thankfully not dependent on her for that. She knows I am sentimental about things.  So I might get a call saying she's going to give something I am sentimental about away or throw it away. She has also done this kind of thing with other family members.

So here is my 2c. MC is useless if she's not invested. If she isn't invested and doesn't want to go, then it's not going to work. If the kids are safe with her on vacation and she can manage with them, then don't react to this. The reaction adds to the drama. She may not follow through with either of these, but if she does, and it won't cause harm to the kids, then she does.

My #1 advice to you from my own experience is to not put an essential need in the control of a disordered person. Finances are essential for our basic needs. An emotionally healthy and respectful person does not try to control their dependent spouse with money. They see the marriage as teamwork. I think she's demonstrated that this isn't the situation with the two of you. For your own sake, start the process of getting a job that will sustain you. It may not be all at once- you may need to take classes or the kids need childcare- even if they are at home now, they won't have the same kind of need in time. This isn't even all about you, it's your wife's need for control but this kind of control is dehumanizing. Good for you for standing up to not signing something that would diminish your contribution as a parent, spouse, and caretaker of the home.

How to reply- I think a reply is better than to ignore it as that's silent treatment on your part. One of the best replies is "I read your email, I understand you are taking the kids on vacation. I need some time to think about what I would like to do and I will let you know" as it's a non reactive and neutral reply. Yes, it will irk her, but less than arguing or giving in and it gives you some time to think about what you wish to do.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2023, 04:39:07 PM by Notwendy » Logged
Couscous
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Sibling
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 1072


« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2023, 05:25:11 PM »

I would not take the bait and reply with: “Sounds good! Hope you guys have fun!”… and then enjoy the peace and quiet and use your alone time to work on your resumé.



Logged
ForeverDad
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18071


You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2023, 11:28:08 PM »

If there is a divorce then there will be parenting orders issued.  One of the tricky ones - okay, there are a lot of tricky issues - is about phone calls when the children are with the other parent.  Typical boilerplate in orders is, "reasonable telephone contact with the children".

With contested parenting, what is "reasonable"?  It is intended for reasonably normal parents.  Daily may be too frequent, for the kids too.  So make the best of it you can.  A reasonable request would be, "I'd like to speak with the kids midway through your weekend away.  What would be a good time, perhaps late Saturday afternoon?"  Of course it goes both ways.  When you take the kids on a weekend trip a neutral observer would rightly expect her getting similar accommodation that you each grant the other.
Logged

Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2023, 06:21:52 AM »

Sounds like the kids are school age? Two nights is not a big deal for a school age kid- sleepovers with friends are one night.

Even in a marriage without conflict, one parent might take the kids on a scout trip, or to see family and it's not a big deal. Wife is making it a threat. It might just be a fun trip for the kids if she's OK with them. ( that can vary with BPD- some are effective parents and some are not).

I would not involve the kids and ask them about this. This might not even happen- my BPD mother has changed her mind, changed plans, several times. The main point of this statement is to get at you. The best response from you is to not be reactive to it.

I agree with FD that in a divorce- there needs to be standards and expectations set firmly so each parent knows what they are. For one weekend, I would not get into when to call or to have the kids call- because that becomes another negotiation point for something that was meant to be non cooperative ( on her part) to begin with.

If the kids are safe with her, it doesn't matter if they go on this trip or not- let this be a trip with mom. You can have your Dad trip later if you wish but be careful about a tit for tat response.

In a divorce where it's always one parent or the other, rules need to be set, and that's important to keep in mind should this happen later.

Logged
LifewithEase
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 129


« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2023, 09:14:59 AM »

NotWendy, ForeverDad, Couscous, BigOof,

This is all hit exactly right. Thank you.

- Do not react. I know she thrives off of making me react (yet, will go harder even when I don't). "It doesn't have to be a combative situation"

- More than one way. You're right, if it was a non-conflict marriage, I think this would be great. What gets in my way? 1. her using it to alienate me and 2. I'm angry and frustrated  - she uses money and time (has +40 days off a year, works 35 hours with flexibility) to control and monopolize the kids' hearts and minds. Logistically, I end up with the time on the margins or time woven into the day's regular stress, hustle, parenting needs 3. envy that they are making wonderful memories

- My time alone and plans with friends will be heavenly, and well needed

- "step from financial predator to financial rapist" was surprising but not. There has been times when she goes off the rails, for example, barging into my home office yelling that I had "no humanity at all." However, the vocabulary here is not only wrong but highly unacceptable and deeply concerning.

- NotWendy, great job on the untangling.

With the kids, I'm worried at a macro-level about alienation (S14) and enmeshment (D11). But for this specifically, I'm always tongue tied. A deep part of me wants them to understand that their mother is not normal (they just have no idea having lived with it, conditioned to it. Their mother's high functioning and career success allows for big layers of normal). I also want to buffer and protect them.

I also want my uBPDw to own her rage and ugliness - saying something like "Well kids, your Mom has disinvited me. That wasn't kind but I'll be fine." I'm angry. Why don't we all talk about that more?

Instead I'll say something like "It makes me sad that we can't share the vacation but you'll have a blast. I'm already starting to think about a Dad's trip. I'd love to hear your ideas." I'll pack them each a bag of candy, magazines, and puzzle books.

I could say nothing but it a. it doesn't give them full perspective and b. they'll end up asking me what's up with me being MIA.

Couples Counseling - NotWendy brings up the a larger thread behind this. I've posted on this and it is worth noting. She's bailing on couples therapy again. As we all expected and discussed in threads. This is the fourth time. Each time. Every one. Right when we bumped into her having to start working on her behavior and uncontrollable emotions, she bails. Yet, by requiring a separate condition of mediation/postnup, and my rejection of it, allows her to sooth herself that it was me that wasn't willing to move forward.

But all of this said, the financial independence has to be the biggest priority for me. My own rumination, daily stress and her dysregulation are such distractions. I need to overcome this some how some way.

Thank you

------------------
For the larger group I pulled out some great language we're all looking for:

- "I read your email, I understand you are taking the kids on vacation. I need some time to think about what I would like to do and I will let you know"

- “Sounds good! Hope you guys have fun!”

- "I'd like to speak with the kids midway through your weekend away.  What would be a good time, perhaps late Saturday afternoon?"
Logged
SaltyDawg
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Moderately High Conflict Marriage (improving)
Posts: 1239



« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2023, 02:09:23 AM »

I can:

A. Ignore, do not respond
B. Ask the kids how they imagine the trip
C. Decide not to go, use the time to focus on my necessary job search
D. Push back hard by replying [I have no idea how best to do this]
E. Wait a few days or week to discuss
F. Combination
G. Something else?

Everyone else has posted great advise and should be reflected uppon, so I will keep it simple on my opinion.

E + B/D.

You need to stop parental alienation.  Your children are children only once, and need to do damage control if you want to have a lifelong relationship with your children. Leaving them alone with your wife will lead to 'brainwashing' based on the conflict level that you describe.

If she is splitting on you, wait for the split to end, and then re-approach using SET communication, make it a family discussion, get the kids input on the trip, this may be seen as triangulation and re-trigger your wife, so proceed caution.  This is the kid's break, they should have significant input on what they are going to do.

In any event do document everything, e-mails, your discussions [record them], etc. etc. etc.

Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

Take care, and do self-care.
Logged

Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2023, 06:34:49 AM »

On parental alienation. Of course, age of children makes a difference in this. You can not control what your wife says to the kids about you. My BPD mother said things to me about my father. They did not divorce. I think what made a difference is that he seemed to act more like a parent to me. I think the bond between parents and children is formed over time and is a result of the caretaking actions of the parent more than what the parent says, even though words are harmful too.

To me, parental alienation is one configuration of the Karpman triangle and this can play out in different ways. I think the pwBPD takes victim stance. In your case, your wife sees herself as a victim of your presumed "financial abuse", you are the perpetrator and she's enlisting the kids to her side as rescuers. It can go the other way though, where she's mad at the kids, or someone else, and you step in as her rescuer, you are painted white. I have seen these configurations in my FOO.

With this triangle, parental alienation can go both ways. Yes, my mother would enlist me "to her side" against my father, but this wasn't successful in the long run as I felt I had a bond with my father. However, his main focus was as rescuer with my mother, and she could be successful in enlisting him to be angry at me if she was angry at me.

I think it's your behavior towards your children that determines the bond. BPD mother's feelings will change but if you change with them, your relationship with the kids might be inconsistent. I think the best thing you can do for your children is to work on your own self, your own boundaries, because you need to be able to do that in order to set that example for them. They need your unconditional love.
Logged
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!