Asking for advice about how to approach BPD mother's house and belongings

[Notwendy]

Now that BPD mother has moved and with the financial urgency to sell the house, her FOO assumes she will let me have items that are in it.

I would assume otherwise.

With BPD mother's need for control, she takes control where she can. Even the smallest task becomes drama. Once, her car was in the shop for repairs. We know that picking up a car requires an extra driver and we were there and offered to help her get it. All we asked her to do was to call the shop to find out when it was ready so we knew when to do that. Well she refused to do that, making a big issue out of it. So this whole thing was to help her but when we asked her about it, she refused.

If you dare to ask BPD mother anything, the more likely response is for her to oppose it. Once she knows you want to do something, it becomes a control point.

Her family believes she will behave differently. I don't.

I plan to visit her, to see the assisted living, to offer my support as a team player with her FOO who has done so much of this process. They also want me to take some things from the house when I am there. I have tried this when she initially agrees but then she changes her mind.

I have not brought up the topic with her.

Her other maneuver is to ask me to come help get things out of the house and then cause so much drama that I give up and then she says I refuse to help her. I know I can't control her seeing me as "bad guy" but also, I can avoid reacting to her and not refuse, and stay neutral.

I would prefer to be in the house without her being there too ( she can leave the assisted living for outings with friends and family) , but I don't think she'd allow it.

I am not invested in the outcome. My expectations of any attempts are low. I had stopped making attempts to "help her clear out the house". On the other hand, if she did want it cleared, I would be willing to take some things of sentimental value. Due to her need for money, she may also want to sell her items. It's up to her.

Wondering how to approach her sounds like a manipulation- it's not about manipulating her to get things. It also may be that being the "bad guy" is not avoidable either. I just know from experience that showing any interest in getting in her house and taking anything is likely to become drama.

I expected that she'd  hold on to everything and not move until the bank repossessed the house it and she'd have to move her belongings to storage or dispose of them.

Her  FOO wants to avoid this as it's better for her if she sells it herself.  They have no financial interest in it or her belongings. I think they feel they are doing the right thing for her and us too, by being proactive.

What seems to be the most probable outcome is that something that requires BPD mother's permission is a non productive situation due to different goals.  If our goal is to clear the house- for her- that doesn't mean it's her goal. Her goal may be to meet her emotional needs in the moment and being controlling may be a way she does that.

Similar to the plan to pick up her car for her. It made sense and if the goal was to get the car, then why resist it. Well she did need to get her car, but she may have been able to ask someone else to help her, and her need for Karpman triangle drama was more than that.

I have my boundaries but there's no point in bringing them up with her. One is that, if this is not productive, I will tell her FOO that I tried and now other arrangements need to be made. I understand that they want me to have these items and want to give me the opportunity to collect them. This will either be productive or not, and if not, then I think it will be clear that this isn't a workable situation.

Thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

[madeline7]

As you said in your last reply to me, our Moms behave so similarly. When my Dad passed away, my Mom made such an issue of being in control of his "things", that no one got anything sentimental. I had suggested we take 5 of his shirts and I could make them into pillows, 1 for each grandchild. She refused, saying she would decide what to do with his things when he was ready. Well, a few weeks later, she asked my H to take his all of his clothes to be donated. Later, when I found a few of my Dad's item in an old suitcase, I asked my kids if they wanted a few things and they said no, because they knew their grandmother would make an issue out of it if she were to find out. When she eventually passes, my kids don't want anything. And neither do I.
NW, do you think it might work for you to be in the house with other members of the extended family present? Along with your kids if possible, since I think you have mentioned your Moms desire was to have a relationship with you in order to have one with your kids? This way, you CYA, as much as that can be accomplished with a BPDm?

[GaGrl]

If your mother's FOO members can clarify her goals, you can go into this better prepared.

One option is to get an estate sale company to handle the sale of the house contents. Should this be the decision, your mother would need to remove from the house any items not to be sold. She would then need to keep them at the assisted living facility ( would need to fit in her room) or put in a storage facility or give them away.

Family members are not allowed at the estate sale if a company is handling it -- too disruptive.

Your mother may need to put items in a storage facility just to help work through her control issues in stages.

If I were you, I would not want to be in the house with your mother making decisions on items that were controversial in the past. I'm not sure she'll even allow the FOO to be in the house with you. You want to avoid being accused later of stealing items.

[kells76]

Am I remembering correctly that many of the items you would like to have are documents and photographs?

For you, based on your values and desires, is having the originals a higher priority, or would having a scan/image also meet what you are wanting?

Also, if your mom's FOO "claimed" many items, would they be willing to share them with you at a later date? For example, if they "chose" many photographs and documents, do you think that they would be amenable to you accessing/viewing/potentially having those things, down the road?

[Notwendy]

This is great advice !

madelyn7- our mothers are so similar. Mine has already disposed of most of my father's belongings- I don't think she cares what happens to them however, she does seem to like having control over them.

GaGrl- good point about not being alone with her and taking anything. I might be able to bring someone from her FOO over. I won't involve my kids- she does the same drama with them and they don't want to get involved with this. I may be able to have one of her FOO with me.

I have brought up the idea of an estate sale. I think it is the preferred option and she needs the money. I think her hesitation on this is to "see what I want" and then engage in drama with it. I also think she will try to hold off on doing anything with her house or belongings unless she has no choice.

One idea I had was to present this as helping her. She has a need to feel superior and order people around, along with a measure of humiliation and verbal/emotional abuse. I can present this to her as something to be of service to her but I would need a list of what she wants me to take so I know what to bring with me such as packing boxes and such. I would expect her to not comply with this and so know, it's more likely she will want me to bring her to the house, get her narcissistic supply of having control. It would be unexpected for her to give me a list, but if she did, then I would have this if she accused me of stealing.

I feel as if her FOO really wants to try. They haven't tried to do this yet, and so don't know what kind of behavior to expect from her. Who knows, they were successful with her moving but also she knew she had no options left. They haven't tried this with her yet. I realize that if this doesn't work, they may need to know that they have at least tried to let us have items- made the offer to us first before taking action such as selling them. They don't want to be the ones to have "taken" them from us. I can understand that.

Kells, since these items include letters, I would like to have the originals. If her FOO gets anything like that, they would give them to me. For now though, they want me to have the chance at them first.

My best guess is that she's likely to delay any progress on the house and if she does, I will let them know of her decision.

[zachira]

I am thinking that what could be key here is how your mother likes to look good to her FOO and others while at the same time opposes anything you want. You might ask her FOO to be completely in charge of disposing of the contents of the house and give them a list of what you would like while making it clear you will accept whatever makes things easier for your FOO to clear out your mother's house. Make it completely clear, that you cannot be directly involved in what happens to your mother's things, as your mother will be opposed and make things difficult for everybody.
I know how much it hurts to not get things you are sentimental about, as this happened to me after my mother died. You have often written about how hurt you were that your mother would not let you have anything after your father died.
Keeping you in my thoughts and I hope that you do get some of the things you are sentimental about.

[kells76]

Could you survive whatever she says or does after you just take the items (such as the letters) that are important to you?

She will likely call you a thief to assisted living staff and to her FOO, correct? Would that be something you could live with?

Her FOO will know what is true about you, perhaps especially if you "prep" them beforehand: "FOO, I understand you're supporting me in taking home items from Mom's that are important to me. Thank you. I just want you to know that I plan to pick up Items A, B, C, D, and E. If anything changes, I'll email you. I need you to know that Mom will likely have a difficult time with this and may accuse me of many things. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me directly."

This is probably just a slightly different approach, but fundamentally similar to Zachira's suggestion: work independently with your mom's FOO ahead of time to coordinate which items (and who picks them up), then "decide and inform" and move ahead, versus "ask and wait" and be blamed by your mom anyway.

[Notwendy]

Zachira is correct in that at one point, I was very sad to not be able to have the sentimental items that belonged to my father. It was also difficult at the time as I also was grieving.

The main reason something is sentimental is that there's an attachment to the relationship with the person who owned it. But now, there's also the memory of my mother using these items to be hurtful. So, while I would still want them, especially if there are items that my children would also want, I would be happy to have them, but am also have mixed feelings about them.

My BPD mother has heirlooms that I would want because they are heirlooms.

I would be fine with not getting anything at all. I have assumed that. I'd be glad if she gave me keepsakes too.


Thankfully, I do have the support of her FOO if she calls me a thief. She's already called me similar things. I would let them know what I have taken out of the house if I do take anything.

[GaGrl]

The only reason I have a portrait of my biological grandmother, who died in 1930 at age 26 in her second pregnancy, is that my grandfather sneaked it to my mother and me when he saw how much I resembled her. Otherwise, the large portrait, in a valuable and unique frame with curved glass, would have remained buried with other items related to my bio grandmother. Grandad had to wait until my uBPD/NPD step-grandmother went to work, pull out the portrait, and have Mom put it in the trunk of our car -- all to ensure that my step-grandmother didn't go into one of her irrational rages.

Sometimes the BPDs are just mean.

[Riv3rW0lf]

The only reason I have a portrait of my biological grandmother, who died in 1930 at age 26 in her second pregnancy, is that my grandfather sneaked it to my mother and me when he saw how much I resembled her. Otherwise, the large portrait, in a valuable and unique frame with curved glass, would have remained buried with other items related to my bio grandmother. Grandad had to wait until my uBPD/NPD step-grandmother went to work, pull out the portrait, and have Mom put it in the trunk of our car -- all to ensure that my step-grandmother didn't go into one of her irrational rages.

Sometimes the BPDs are just mean.

Yep... My mother destroyed or "lost" the only video that existed from my childhood. She just "lost" it, along with most photos. She also stole my father's photos and things that belonged to his childhood when they separated, and proceeded to lose them. I was able to sneak some of those things out of her house.

I say you should go for what you want to save. The drama is temporary, not those souvenirs, and your children might value having those.

It still stings to think she lost my childhood memories, in a sense. I wished I'd have sneak it out of her house sooner, but I didn't know how mean she could be. I say : take what you want to take, Notwendy, while she isn't there.

[Couscous]

Once, her car was in the shop for repairs. We know that picking up a car requires an extra driver and we were there and offered to help her get it. All we asked her to do was to call the shop to find out when it was ready so we knew when to do that. Well she refused to do that, making a big issue out of it. So this whole thing was to help her but when we asked her about it, she refused.

Oh, now you mother’s behavior makes a lot more sense to me. It  looks like she interprets your desire to be helpful or kind as an attempt to ingratiate yourself to her. That would also explain why she reacted so negatively to that lunch you organized for her. My guess it’s because she does this herself, so she just assumes that everyone uses ingratiation to win brownie points with people.

She also might not be willing to accept help so that she can avoid being in someone’s debt and doesn’t have to ever “owe” anything to anyone.

The solution to this is simply to not render favors or offer to help her, or to do anything nice for her.

[Notwendy]

It  looks like she interprets your desire to be helpful or kind as an attempt to ingratiate yourself to her.
My guess it’s because she does this herself, so she just assumes that everyone uses ingratiation to win brownie points with people.

Wow that's good insight. I would not have thought of this- because, I don't do this kind of thing. It would not even cross my mind to do something to ingratiate my mother. I don't think that way, and don't even want people to be ingratiated to me.

She might see my efforts as having ulterior motives or being manipulative- because that's how she might do it.

So you are correct.  I know not to make plans like arranging the lunch. I can ask if she wants to go to lunch with me but not be invested in how she responds and just go get my own lunch if she refuses. She does like it when people are subservient to her, but she needs to be in charge of that. If I put discussing the house in terms of helping her, she could then assume I have another agenda, or have some ulterior motive. Maybe that is why she's been suspicious of my attempts to help her.

I can also see if she brings it up. If I don't offer, she may start giving me orders to do this or that in the house. Or do nothing. It would be an interesting to see what happens if I just don't offer.

It's possible that her insistence on knowing what I want and then hanging on to it is her wanting to ingratiate me. When I reply that I would prefer she decide what she wants to give me, that doesn't sit right with her. It would be interesting if I did something different.

None of this is with any intention of manipulating her or making her do something, it would just be interesting to see what happens.

[GaGrl]

What if the FOO members asked her which items in the house need to go into storage before the estate sale takes place? That protects those items, your mother knows they are "safe" (from whatever or whomever, LOL), and an estate sale can proceed cleanly.

And if something important to you is not on the list for storage, you can ask FOO to include it.

I would not imagine it would be very expensive for the number of things she might want to keep. I have a 10' by 5' storage unit for seasonal decorations that costs US$75 per month.

[Turkish]

Better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Estate sale is a good idea, especially using a company. We did one ourselves and though we made a few thousand dollars literally hand over fist on small items in a few hours, some people stole. It was like garage salers on steroids. Vultures.

With BPD mother's need for control, she takes control where she can. Even the smallest task becomes drama. Once, her car was in the shop for repairs. We know that picking up a car requires an extra driver and we were there and offered to help her get it. All we asked her to do was to call the shop to find out when it was ready so we knew when to do that. Well she refused to do that, making a big issue out of it. So this whole thing was to help her but when we asked her about it, she refused.

Sounds like my mom when she was living with us and I tried to encourage her to write a check and mail it on her delinquent property tax payment plan. Paying online? Ha! I had to take a day off work (lost a day's wages) and drive her over 100 miles so she could pay in person, and then listen while she told the ladies at the counter that I had never helped her with $.

[Notwendy]

I have been the one to bring up a sale of her items. She needs the money and they are hers. I think her FOO is trying to be considerate to us by giving me this opportunity before taking more steps to clear the house. I also brought up the idea of a storage unit but they somehow don't like that idea. I think the financial need includes selling items rather than to store them. 

I have noticed in my conversations that her FOO seem to get frustrated by different suggestions. I can see how I come across to them as "wishy washy" when dealing with BPD mother. They are more direct and assertive-  but they also have not been walking on eggshells around her. We "feel her out" and if we see a reaction, begin to back off. I see their point in just coming up with a plan, rather than offering her choices.

It's made me think about how I interact with her and how much we are accustomed to walking on eggshells around her. She's also very disordered with her thinking. You can see where her emotions rise when talking to her and then her thinking gets scrambled. She starts out seemingly fine, but it's social talk. Then once you try to discuss a plan in logical sequence, she scrambles and gets agitated and can't follow you.  I can see her family get frustrated with me when I make different suggestions. I think this is still the co-dependency and people pleasing part of me- making suggestions - is this OK, is that OK, but there's still fear when dealing with my mother and anyone connected to her.

I think the best way to proceed is to try- and whatever happens- then tell them I have what I want. Then the rest is up to BPD mother to decide on. Their frustration with my hesitation is probably due to the fact that they need to move on with this.

[zachira]

Would you consider telling your mother's family that you will let them work out with your mother how to empty her house while also giving them a list of items you would like to have with the understanding that you will be fine if you don't get any of these items or just some of them? Walking on eggshells regarding the outcome of the emptying of your mother's house is understandable with how your mother likes to control everybody around her and blame you for how badly she feels inside.
As someone who dealt with not getting any of my mother's things, and much advice from other members, to give up on not getting any of my mother's things, I feel this is a process, letting go of possibly not getting anything while wanting things because of their sentimental value. Sometimes it is better to let things go, and other times, it is better to fight for what we want, or do something in between. What you are dealing with, feels somewhat like how we continually renegotiate the kind of contact we will have with disordered family members, when we can't just go full no contact. You are under a great deal of pressure to make final decisions about how you will participate in the emptying of your mother's house and you have so little time to decide.

[Couscous]

We "feel her out" and if we see a reaction, begin to back off.

And what’s the worse that could happen if she has a reaction?

[Notwendy]

And what’s the worse that could happen if she has a reaction?

Logically nothing other than an unpleasant experience. Emotionally, sets off a lot of fear from her rage episodes when we were children. We grew up terrified of her. It's something to be aware of but a habit to tiptoe around her.

I am not invested in the outcome of asking her what she wants me to take out of the house. It's just the idea has been presented to me by her FOO. I understand their reasoning and that they don't understand all of the history with BPD mother. I think the plan to try - then tell them it's fine to proceed with the sale is probably the best option. They may be willing to collect items for me but first, I think they want to see what my mother agrees to first.

[zachira]

Sounds like you are in a good place: not invested in the outcome, though willing to have some of your mother's things if her family helps you to get them with your mother's approval which could be very temporary.

[Couscous]

My guess is that it’s probably going to take some assertiveness on your part, both with your mother and with your extended family, to get the items you would like. Maybe having your H accompany you would help too.

Just because someone is getting reactive doesn’t mean you’ve stepped onto the drama triangle as long as you are able to remain calm. If tensions begin to rise you can always take a bathroom break and do a grounding exercise. Worst case, you get nothing, but at least you gave it your best shot.

[Cat Familiar]

My mother never let go of ANYTHING…as it could be useful at some point. I’m talking about clocks that don’t work, years of rinsed out yogurt containers, high heeled shoes she hadn’t worn in decades, etc.

When her dementia began to increase to a point where I felt she was no longer safe to live in her house, I began flying down to see her every few weeks and pack up and dispose of her belongings. I came up with an acronym: BUS…Beautiful, Useful, Sentimental and anything that didn’t fit with these terms was donated or discarded. Sentimental was *dangerous*—in her mind, it applied to the yogurt containers, as she had eaten yogurt with my deceased father.

I put up with rages, crying fits, and accusations of all sorts of harmful intentions: “You are throwing me out of my own home!” “You’re going to take all my things and leave me homeless.”

Nevertheless I persevered. Lots of times on a return trip, I’d notice that she had fished out assorted things from the garbage can.

Even when the movers were coming the following day, I had to sleep on the floor in front of the bathroom door where I had locked in her cat, so she wouldn’t let him out. She threatened to not get on the plane with me, but she (and the cat) made the trip and I moved her into the house I bought for her, just a few miles away from me.

Then she threatened to run away and get on any random bus and “go home.” I called Adult Protective Services to come and have a chat with her. I wanted her threats documented and figured if she saw an *authority figure* that I might have some negotiating ability to “prevent her from getting into trouble” should she think about making good on her threats.

My mother was not fully non compos mentis at this point, but at the same time, she wasn’t totally capable of knowing what was missing, so I was able to *disappear* stuff and she had no idea I had disposed of certain things if she hadn’t seen me do it.

Undoubtedly your mother’s quarters in assisted living will be much smaller than her current house, so if you take things that are meaningful to you, it could very well be that she will never miss them.

Sh!tfits and meltdowns are regular BPD occurrences and she already has an *attitude* toward you. Why not just take things that you want, that are important to you, and let the chips fall where they may? You can provide her FOO a list and if there’s anything she absolutely HAS to have returned, then give it back. More likely she will be so overwhelmed in her new living circumstances that she won’t even notice.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Notwendy,

I had a thought about this, 2 possible approaches.

You've shared how your mom offers things to you and then goes back on that so you've stepped back from any hopes or attempts to pursue getting those things which makes sense. I would be in that boat right with you.

You also have her FOO trying to help in their own way by offering things to you, and yet that's not a comfortable place for you either.

Could you put together a list of all the items your mom has mentioned she wants to keep, including those items that you'd like that she maintains control over, and give it to your mom and say something to the effect of, "Mom, here's a list of the items you've told me over the years that you want to keep. I've also given the list to X (FOO person). You can cross off or add to the list and confer with them if you wish to add or remove things as they prepare to get the house ready to sell. It's a starting place, not a final list. Their hope is that you'll be able to place in a storage unit those items that are important to you, those that you've said have significance for you which you'd most likey not want to sell in the auction." With the items you would like eventually being pulled out to save and placed in storage, they'll be safe for down the road (and that's a bridge you can cross later). Or if mom says or crosses off the list and instructs that she doesn't want those items, then you could get them from the FOO (without telling her) as they take care of the list. If you think she'd notice before any auction and wonder where the items went, as a contingency plan, you/they can tell her they're in a storage unit where you put them. That way they'd not be in your possession yet  until the dust settles.

The second option would be to take that same list and directly give it to the FOO and have them do the communication with your mom. If the items you want aren't on the list after they speak to her, then you can be firm in your decision to remove them to your house and not tell your mom.

Just another option to consider. It leaves her in control of her choices regarding what she wants, yet hopefully protects what you'd like. It also gives you options so that things aren't lost to you that you want, and it allows you to appear less wishy washy to the FOO. Everyone can take or leave your idea, but it's a good starting place to help everyone.

Take care,
Wools

[Notwendy]

Wow Cat, what an ordeal!

My mother doesn't hold on to items in general- it's the items she thinks, or knows we want that become objects of control or anger. She'd confiscate, or threaten to ruin, or actually ruin, a favorite item.

BPD mother has the keys to the house. She holds on to them. Her FOO doesn't have a key. To actually get into the house, I have to ask her for the key. So it begins with asking her for something I want- the key. In addition, so far, she insists on being with me, looking through items with her.

I am not invested in getting any of the items. It might be just another opportunity for her to engage in this game of asking what I want. Her FOO thinks she will be more agreeable now. I guess the only way to find out is to try and see what happens but I know to not have expectations.

[Notwendy]

Wools, that is a good idea. I don't know all of what is in the house as I don't look through it but if BPD wants me to "go through the house" with her, I can then make a list and hand it to her FOO. Then if they are able to collect anything, I can get it from them, or ask them to send it to me and I would cover the costs of shipping.

[Couscous]

I thought this article was eye-opening: https://nataliefrank.medium.com/narcissistic-mothers-steal-throw-out-destroy-or-give-away-your-belongings-to-maintain-control-and-f7c8ed3c4d1

[Notwendy]

I thought this article was eye-opening: https://nataliefrank.medium.com/narcissistic-mothers-steal-throw-out-destroy-or-give-away-your-belongings-to-maintain-control-and-f7c8ed3c4d1

This is my mother, and explains why attempting to collect any sentimental items feels like giving her an opportunity to have this kind of interaction and why I have no expectations of her ( and I am not attached to the outcome).

Often children will share a hobby with the non-narcissistic parent such as watching old movies, playing a particular sport or coin collecting. After that parent passes away, the child comes to value items related to that hobby as something that represents the closeness that was experienced while engaging in it with the parent. It is often the case that the narcissistic parent will take those possessions away, either claiming they belong to them despite never having any interest in the hobby.

The parent will then get rid of the objects to deprive the child of something that represents that time spent with their other parent. They don’t see how terrible an act this is, only that they are ending anything having to do with an activity they weren’t involved in.

Yes, this is what happened with the belongings I wanted that belonged to my father.

[zachira]

If seems that the best option could be to ask one of your mother's relatives to go through the house with her, make a list of what she wants to keep and what she wants to get rid of. It is likely based on past experiences and this article, that your mother will be extremely abusive to you in any interactions that have to do with her things, possibly more abusive than you have ever experienced.

[Cat Familiar]

I like zachira’s suggestion of having the relatives go through the house with her and make a list of possessions she will take to assisted living. She’s going to have to surrender the key at some point or they will need to have it duplicated in order to arrange for the sale of goods that won’t be moved to her new living quarters. That drama can be then managed by someone other than you. And in the meantime, you might be making a list of things you want, prior to the sale of house and goods within.

[GaGrl]

I agree with Zachira and Cat...this really needs to be managed by FOO, and NotWendy needs not to be present. This could be highly difficult, and the FOO might see a side of her that they haven't fully experienced before.

[Notwendy]

Great suggestions. In addition, I will be staying with them. BPD mother knows they will ask me how it is going. So it might be that she behaves differently now that she knows they are involved.

[Notwendy]

It's predictable- BPD mother's relatives made plans to go to her house and make a list and she "didn't feel up to it" on that day.  

And, Golden Child seems to be claiming some of the most valuable things in the house. My H thinks I am being "too nice" as I have said I am not interested in them which now makes me second guess this, but I also don't think he understands the kind of disordered drama that could result in making more of a deal about it. GC is closer to my mother and I think there's been an arrangement between them already as I always expected. However, I did have a boo hoo moment recalling how I felt as a child when BPD mother favored GC. I mentioned this to GC who told me that I was the one who distanced myself so this is the result. Ouch.

Then I got over it when speaking to a nurse who was updating me about BPD mother's care and mentioned she yelled at her and realized that there's nothing of enough value to get into more drama over but still, discouraging to recognize the potential for things to get ugly. BPD mother has given some nice things to my kids over the years though, it's not as if we have no heirlooms, but I was a bit shocked at GC's insistence over some items. But there's also a high emotional cost to material things from my parents that I don't want to be involved with.

[zachira]

It sounds like in some ways things are going as expected. You knew there would be drama, and you would be unable to predict all the hurtful things that would happen with the disordered family members and the distribution/storage of your mother's things. You are doing a great job of weathering the storm and dealing with how disordered family members have to hurt others to avoid how flawed they feel deep down inside. I hope that the distribution/storage of your mother's things will soon be over, and it sounds like it will within the next few months because the house has to be sold to pay your mother's bills. What do you think are the best ways to protect yourself from Golden Child's hurtful comments, your mother, and the rest of the disordered family members in the meantime?

[Notwendy]

What do you think are the best ways to protect yourself from Golden Child's hurtful comments, your mother, and the rest of the disordered family members in the meantime?

I think there are other dynamics going on, where Golden Child has some financial concerns that are driving this. I also suspect that GC was promised an inheritance that is no longer there and so the drive to take some valuables is in context of some need there.

I think GC is supportive when discussing difficult situations with BPD mother but also aligns with her and so will not be supportive of my feelings when it comes to any items she owns, so one way to protect myself from hurtful comments is to not discuss my feelings with GC.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
You are right that you will not get any validation from GC and to decide not to discuss your hurt feelings with GC. I truly believe we are on the path to staying safer and healing when we recognize that we cannot share with certain people how they have hurt us.

[Notwendy]

I agree. Although GC has not done anything specifically hurtful to me, I know that there is enmeshment with BPD mother and also some financial need. I have not ever had expectations of BPD mother. It's just that seeing it potentially happen is an emotional experience.

I think it's a good thing that these are just items- not property like real estate. I know you have had to deal with that and the flying monkeys Zachira and that is a much bigger deal.

[zachira]

Seeing it happen is indeed an emotional experience. We cannot always prepare for how we are going to feel when our disordered family members hurt us in unexpected ways. Take your time doing the things that help you to process the hurt experiences as they come up and the anxiety about now knowing what is going to happen, just knowing some things will hurt the core of your soul. Of course you know at an intellectual level that the GC getting your mother's things as mine did, says nothing about your value, and it still hurts.

[Notwendy]

Of course you know at an intellectual level that the GC getting your mother's things as mine did, says nothing about your value, and it still hurts.

Yes, and I think that finances are partly driving this

It's possible that for some items, their sentimental value is greater than the sale value or the other way around.

I think this is where we can meet in the middle and get some items appraised. It's been a long time since any of them were appraised, if ever.

[zachira]

If you do get an appraisal of some of your mother's belongings, you may be quite surprised at how little they are worth. Most of the younger generations do not value antiques and old things anymore, and what were once very expensive items are often difficult to sell and their value is often reduced many times over what they were once worth at top value. With my family challenges, I have been involved in appraisals with different appraisers. Even the very best appraiser, is not going to waste a lot of time looking up the value of many things, as it is too costly, and it is rare to be surprised at how little some things are worth. You can also do your own research on line to get an idea of what your mother's things are worth. Unfortunately, you may be dealing with lots of anger from your mother when/if she finds out that some of her belongings are not worth a lot of money.
Your thinking about getting some items appraised makes sense. Yes, the sentimental value is likely higher which makes it so sad when the person who cherished the belongings does not get them. In my case, neither of my siblings cared about my mother's things; they just wanted to have everything to feel like the winners. My mother and I shared an appreciation of fine beautiful things, and she very much wanted her belongings divided up between her children, and my siblings took everything.

[Notwendy]

My mother and I shared an appreciation of fine beautiful things, and she very much wanted her belongings divided up between her children, and my siblings took everything.

That is so heartbreaking and something I understand as I am sentimental about certain items. While our perspective is understandable, I also think that this situation has had an impact on GC as well. GC has been promised some items and I think was hoping they'd have financial value.  BPD mother is the one who claims they are valuable but there hasn't been a recent estimate done.

You are correct that the sale price is also determined by the market for the item, and so we don't know what that could be. It's also possible that BPD mother may need to sell items for her own financial needs and they belong to her first.

For many items, I think a search on ebay will show an estimated value. If something is potentially of value, then we can get an estimate done.

[zachira]

How are things going with your mother's relatives who have taken over managing emptying your mother's house? Would it make sense to let them know what you would like to have or would that lead to your mother being given the list and making sure you don't get anything? Would it be possible to offer to pay for the things you want? Just trying to help here and realize you may not want to do any of these things knowing you will likely be put through more heartbreak. My heart goes out to you knowing how painful this whole process can be.

[Notwendy]

My relatives are on board with helping me. I asked BPD mother to tell me what she wants done with her items and to please let me know. She said we can figure it out and I said please be specific as I don't want to have that decision and she said she'd decide. Then she talked about how everyone moved her and she had no say in what was going on and acted all confused ( which she's not - she controls things). Hopefully I will get some clarification from her but it's best to keep expectations low.

[zachira]

I am little confused as to why you are asking your mother what she wants to do with her things, as it seems when she deals with you she likes to make things as difficult and confusing as possible. Could it possibly make more sense to have her relatives who got her to go to assisted living to be the only direct contacts with your mother regarding what is going to happen to her things? I finally had to hire a lawyer to deal with my NPD sister because of how dire the long term consequences would be unles she had to deal with somebody she respected and wanted to look good in front of like her lawyer and mine. I am in no way suggesting you hire a lawyer. It is just when you are the target/the scapegoat of your mother's frustrations, she is not likely to do anything that will solve the problem of what to do with her things just continue to make matters worse. I agree it makes sense to have low expectations. At the same time, if your mother's relatives ask you what you want and you tell them, you might get some of those things.

[Notwendy]

I am trying to avoid a conflict with GC. The relatives don't want to decide who gets what. It's been unclear about what she wants to give to GC so I have asked her to be clear about what she wants to do with them. She's also talked about having an estate sale for some items and so I am hoping to know which those are.

I know that the rest is up to her, and she will say/do what she wants.

[zachira]

Maybe you could tell the relatives what you want and be clear that you want GC to get anything GC wants. If there is an estate sale, you can bid on the items you want if they are in the sale. I really have very little hope for your mother doing anything other than what she has always done when she brings up her belongings and asks you what you want. She will probably behave worse than ever if you try to discuss with her what to do with her belongings. The memories of the ugly words can hurt for a lifetime, and your mother knows how to hurt you to your very core in the worst of moments.
I can see why you would want to avoid having any conflict with GC because of where it could go and how long the ugly feelings could last that the GC could have towards you. My GC NP sister felt entitled to my brother's car even though he had made it clear before he died that he wanted our other brother to have it. My other brother was willing to give the car to her if I agreed. My NPD sister claimed she deserved the car because she had made the most monetary sacrifices to help with our dying brother, which paled in comparison to what my other brother and I had done to help our dying sibling in his last months. My NPD sister was angry at our dying brother for not paying attention to her when he was on his death bed and could pass away at any moment. I hope things go as well as can be expected with GC and GC is not as impaired as my NPD sister who holds lifetime grudges when she does not get her way which is one reason why I am NC with her. It is so hard to keep the peace with disordered family members. You know your family and what is best for your peace of mind, values, and most of all your tender heart.

[Notwendy]

Since I am the one picking up any items, they will be in my possession first. I hope ( but as you say may not happen) BPD mother will specify who gets what if she gives them to us. Some items have already been designated to GC. The problem is the ones that are not and I know GC wants them- to sell.

There is a financial issue driving GC to get whatever possible. I know GC cares about the relationship with me, but when there is need, I think the need drives this and there's less sensitivity to feelings. I also think GC has the perspective of the favored child and so may feel more deserving.  Even if I don't want a lot of items, I don't know if I am OK with them all being sold. It's possible my kids would like something as a keepsake.

Anything already designated to GC- that is settled and I will make sure GC gets them. For the undecided ones, if there are any, I think it would be wise to get something of assumed value appraised. Assumed, because I have already seen some items like this being sold for a lot less online. So rather than have GC assume value and have hard feelings, I feel it's better to get them appraised. Since I supposedly will have them, then I can do that.

I was already OK with some items already being designated to GC. I assumed GC wanted them for sentiment but I know now that the plan is to sell them.

So let's say something is sentimental to me and it's half the value of the not sentimental item, I'd rather GC get the higher value item and sell it than to take the lower value sentimental one thinking it is worth more. I think it will be easier to reconcile undecided items if we know their sale value, since we both aren't deciding on sentiment alone.

Also, BPD mother may wish to sell them for herself. These are her items to do that with if she wants. I think she will do this with larger items like furniture.

[zachira]

How did GC get certain items designed for GC? Why are there no items designated for you? Am I understanding correctly that GC can ask mother for what GC wants and you can't as your mother will surely say no?

[Notwendy]

Sort of. CG has looked at items and asked for them but to be fair, BPD mother has given some items to my kids and so I think the ones that CG has claimed so far are fair.

What has happened now is that CG has claimed  additional items that have not been designated to anyone. I was a bit shocked at how "grabby" the claim was. I am ok with what was already designated but a bit surprised at this next thing. I would like for BPD mother to designate who they would go to as I don't want to be in any dispute with GC.

Originally, I thought we were both pretty chill about this. Then, as GC went for more, I got emotional. Looking at things from a sentimental viewpoint, for most items, it didn't matter to me who got what. There are a few things I wanted but some I am not personally attached to. If GC was, then I am ok with that.

But then, I realized the idea wasn't for keepsakes but to sell, which means items will not be kept or passed down. Rationally, I know that anyone can do what they want with something, but I think there are some things my kids would like to have. So now I am looking at the idea that I may need to buy something either from BPD mother or GC  if I want to keep it in the family for now. The wish to have something designated to me is emotional too as I didn't plan on selling anything.

The shift from sentimental to financial changes things. Rather than see something stay in the family with GC, I am also considering if I want to see something completely gone. Once there's an appraisal, I think the decision about what to do would be clearer.

I see financial transactions as being a bit cold, but it may just come to that. I have to work within my own budget as well, but somehow making it financial also creates emotional distance and that might be the better approach.

[zachira]

How did your children get some of your mother's things? It sounds like part of your strategy is to not directly ask for anything for yourself as you know your mother will likely say no and do what she can to hurt your feelings. I am guessing that if your children get some of your mother's things, especially some of the things which you would like to have, that will help you to feel that you are getting what you want in that important family heirlooms are being kept in the family. I like your idea of getting things that could be valuable appraised and then offering to buy them. Your mother may decide not to give certain things to GC if she knows their value. Are you planning to get appraised any of the things already promised to GC? Is your mother likely to give anything to GC that GC asks for?

[Cat Familiar]

I’m assuming that you only have one sibling: GC? Why not get everything appraised and then calculate total monetary value? Then divide that sum in 2. Each party gets to choose items and once half of the monetary value is met, that’s it.

It’s easy for me to offer this strategy as I’m more of a Thinker than a Feeler. It seems you’re more on the Feeling end of the spectrum.

My cousin and I had to settle my bachelor uncle’s estate in Wyoming and it basically ended the threadbare connection we had. I left to return home a few days before he did, after we did an estate sale. However I later learned of some underhanded things he did, and from that point, I’ve had no interest in any contact with him whatsoever.

[GaGrl]

My great-aunt closed her house to move in with one of her five sons for health reasons. She had all the sons, DILs, and grandchildren come to her house several weeks before the move. Everyone made a choice, in turn, of an item they wanted. I'm sure not everyone got their primary choice, but my aunt had a country house filled with enough marvelous antiques for everyone to have something special. She called me and asked if I wanted anything, and I still have a limited edition print that I had always admired.

Perhaps after an appraisal, you and GC could take turns choosing items. Neither of you might get all you wanted, but it's the fairest way I've seen it done.

Of course, all depends on how your mother processes it all.

[Notwendy]

To address the questions- my BPD mother has gone either way with my kids- sometimes giving them something and sometimes not. She tends to be more generous with them and wants them to like her. There's still an element of control with her, deciding when she wants to do that rather than when they ask. She's given them a few things- not a lot, but I acknowledge that and also want to be fair to GC. The twist on all this is that, I was thinking sentiment, GC is thinking sell and I just became aware of looking at these things financially in addition.

My main objective is to avoid conflict and hurt feelings if possible. I just realized there's more of a financial objective for GC than I thought.

The reason I will be picking up some items and not GC is that while neither of us live very close to BPD mother, I live closer so it's easier and quicker for me to pick them up. The reason for doing this quickly is to empty the house for sale as soon as possible. If I have something that is going to go to GC, that can be arranged later.

My aim is to have this done openly- have a record of anything I have and if there are any items not already decided on, I will have them appraised. For items already decided on, there's no dispute and some, BPD mother may want to sell. The first thing though is to get them out of the house.

I think the difference that I picked up on was that I was thinking more about how to be fair to GC than GC is thinking about fairness to me. On my part, I don't care as much about it being 50 -50 on a financial level. It may be that I only want a few items and GC can have more,  but I'd like to have the chance to decide too. What I was seeing was more of a grab as much as possible on the part of GC. I think having items appraised will make this an easier way to decide.

[zachira]

I agree with you that having items appraised will make it easier to figure out who gets what. I think GC will be shocked at how much less some items are worth than GC thought.

[Mommydoc]

Good luck with this NotWendy.   I feel for you, and am happy that you are making progress getting your mom out of her home. Given what happened with your fathers belongings, this is an important time for you.   I encourage you to pay attention to your feelings and stand up for yourself. 

I think the difference that I picked up on was that I was thinking more about how to be fair to GC than GC is thinking about fairness to me. On my part, I don't care as much about it being 50 -50 on a financial level. It may be that I only want a few items and GC can have more,  but I'd like to have the chance to decide too. What I was seeing was more of a grab as much as possible on the part of GC. I think having items appraised will make this an easier way to decide.

It seems to me that even in the most functional families, it is never totally equitable and someone always becomes the “grabber”. My sister grabbed everything of my PGM’s when she died. There was  jewelry that we were supposed to split, but she took it all and decided that I would get my grandmothers watch, which made no sense, because I either don’t wear a watch and when I do, I wear an Apple Watch.   She did agree to “split” the charms on my PGMs charm bracelet with my daughter, herself and me, but never did.  She even brought it to my daughters graduation, told her to pick the charms she wanted.  She did, and I told her which ones I wanted also, and of course, neither of us got ever anything.   My mom grabbed a ring for herself and quietly gave it to me.  That is very special to me, and I am satisfied with that.  But every time she shows up wearing my GMs jewelry, it stings. 

Recently, when my mom appeared to be about to pass, I told my sister to go through her things and let me know what she wanted and /or to take it.  It was surreal, the things she took were odd and as you described it was more about “ taking” stuff then it was about sentimental value. For me, it made me realize how different we were.   I only need one or two things, and the value isn’t monetary, it’s sentimental. 

I hope the GC will agree to the appraisal process and that it goes smoothly for you.  Figure out what is most important to you, and what outcome you want, and make sure you advocate for yourself, as the GC likely is not going to consider fairness or equity in this process.  The more the two of you can work through this without having to invoke your mother as a decision maker, the less stressful it will all be.  Good luck!

[Turkish]

I don't get the grabbing.

When my boss's mom died, his 2 aunts stormed through the house and took a bunch of stuff (targeting jewelry) before he and his sister could disposition it. Then they offered no help with the cleanup (I did for a day and it was a lot!). Maybe because they weren't in the will for the estate, likely a $2m home at the time (north of San Francisco)? They remain emotionally cut off to this day.

[Notwendy]

I think there's a big emotional component to the "grabbing" - driven by several emotional and actual needs. When my H's parents moved out of his house, one of his siblings grabbed a lot of things, and this sibling is financially secure- there was no need for them. I think it's about wanting love and connection and feeling the need to have more.

With GC, I think it's financial need and now, with BPD mother having spent all her money, there's no hope for any inheritance of cash. I don't think that is the primary expectation on the part of GC- to inherit money. However, several years ago, BPD mother had indicated there was an account that GC was the beneficiary of, and that account is now gone. Any money BPD mother indicated was for GC has been spent and so now, CG is wanting something valuable to sell if needed. GC also wants some items for sentimental reasons.

For me, the emotions were surprising. There were a few sentimental items I wanted but didn't have the wish to have her possessions so it surprised me that I felt sad when GC wanted to sell some. I think it was connected to the emotions of when my father passed away and I wanted some kind of validation that I didn't feel at the time. The idea that my father's possessions would go to strangers rather than to me were unfathomable. Would BPD mother do the same thing with her possessions?

There was a happy outcome to this situation as I did visit and my BPD mother's family assisted me. They actually have caught on to her issues over time. BPD mother's behaviors are most apparent with her immediate family- and she's on her best behavior in front of her FOO, so by coming with me, she was more cooperative. The house needs to be cleared so it can be sold, so they knew this helps all involved. I did get some sentimental items and am happy with that. The items GC wants have no sentimental value to me and so I don't care if GC sells them.

BPD mother had her moments. In addition to helping clear the house, I met with realtors, brought her items she needed for her new place. It wasn't a "come and take things" visit. I didn't want to do that- I spent time with her too, visited the assisted living, met with some staff and her nurse coordinator.  

It didn't matter to her what I did as it's not enough for her. Even though the entire focus of this visit revolved around her, she continues to find something wrong with what we did. She expressed her disappointment that she isn't living near me. I apologized to her for disappointing her. She made comments on the phone to me that I cried over, then realized her FOO saw that and did damage control by being super sugary sweet to me after that. But I didn't cry because I took it personally. Her "lovey" comments are fake. She can't feel them, but she feels the emotions she projects. Those are her reality and her perceptions are so twisted. She didn't get angry at the things we did- she got angry at her perception of something we didn't do- and it was so trite it was astounding. Then she based her feelings on an entire situation about it that was completely fabricated in her mind and got angry at me over it. Of all the things we did for her- she makes up something we didn't do and feel hurt and upset over that. When she called me up angry over the situation she made up, it just seemed so delusional and sad, that I cried- for her.

The real treasure in all this is the possibility of reconnecting with family who I thought were estranged from me. I am still somewhat guarded- with anyone in my mother's circle but I saw that they were sincere about rebuilding the relationship and will give it a chance. Although some of them did act as "flying monkeys" they really had no idea what was going on at the time but over time they see more of the situation. They also care about my mother and wanted to see her in a safer place than in her own home. So it seems to be a good situation for all.

[zachira]

I have enormous respect for how you have handled this difficult ongoing situation with your mother and the rest of the family. You are a role model for us all. I am especially making note of how you have been very careful in communicating to your mother's family what they can handle and seemed to have earned their respect. I am sad your mother blamed you as you knew she would about the dire situation that she created for herself. So good to know you got some items you wanted. The worst is behind you, and it looks like for the first time you are pretty much in control for how things go with your mother and the family from now on because of the heathy boundaries you are modeling for us all. Are there parts of you that are truly glad that you are not the GC?

[Mommydoc]

Thanks for the update NotWendy.  As emotional and difficult as this journey has been, it does seem like you have made so much progress, both in getting your mother to a safe place, with your mothers family and mostly with yourself. Like Zachira, I have tremendous admiration for how you have navigated this.  I hope you can get some respite and self care.  You have been through a lot. 

[Cat Familiar]

   Good work! It seems like a very healing experience for you. You confronted the depths of her delusional thinking and rather than taking it personally, realized what underlies it. And you were able to secure some items that are meaningful to you, while extracting yourself from the issues of your sibling. Seems like the situation is now wrapped up with a tidy bow. Your mother will be managed by professionals, while her FOO now has a different perspective on whatever narrative she has been pushing for years. And you have an opportunity to get to know family members with whom you’ve been distant out of a desire for self protection.

[Notwendy]

Thanks all, and yes, the sum of it all is very positive and I am happy about how it all went. In ways, I have been happy that I am not the GC. I think there are detrimental effects on children for both being the golden child and the scapegoat child, but the enmeshment on the golden child seems to have an impact on their having independence. It wasn't all easy for GC though as BPD mother has been hurtful to every member of her immediate family.

One interesting aspect of having family members as emotional protection is that I think I was able to see her accusations in a more objective manner as it was less emotional. For as long as I can recall, I have not intentionally done anything to upset her, even as a kid, I didn't intentionally misbehave or break rules. I have been compliant - did what she told me to, did my homework, did well in school. Yet somehow she gets angry. In my visits as an adult, I have tried to do nice things for her- run errands, fix meals, arranged a get together with her family, yet somehow at the end of the visit, she tells me some reason why I have upset her.

Actions are visible and there's a certain number of them in a certain time period. There are only so many times one has gone to the store, or fixed a meal, or driven someone somewhere. You can see them, count them, they are facts. The "crimes of omission" the things I didn't do can be anything and as many as according to how she feels. So even if I do 10 nice things for her, she can feel as many "things I didn't do" or a variation "things I didn't do in the manner she wanted me to" as she feels and these are the things she gets upset about.

She called me as I was getting ready to drive home. I expected the message to be what anyone would say - like "have a safe drive" "it was nice to see you" "thanks for coming". Instead she told me how upset she was because I didn't do something that she decided was important. It was a trivial thing, not a priority,  and she made it into something bigger than it was. Other times it's something I did but not in the way she wanted, such as asking me to go do some things then getting upset because I didn't do them in the order she wanted me to. The "agenda" is not known, sometimes she doesn't even know it. If she tells me something she wants and I ask details about it, she gets angry- because she hasn't decided on them - yet- but after you do it, it's wrong somehow and then she tells you how hurtful it was.

That's the difficult part - she tells me how much she feels hurt, despite every effort on my part to do the opposite. And it's all in her own mind and that's sad. She had a husband who did all he could to change this for her, and kids who try to- and yet, she can not perceive past her emotional projections and we can't change that for her, but we would if we could. That's sad for her.

[Mommydoc]

That resonates with me so much.  You have such clarity NotWendy.  I notice how you have successfully separated yourself emotionally from it.  You are sad “for her” which is empathetic, without allowing her anger and accusatory comments hurt you.  Being able to see her accusations more objectively as projections and being less emotional is so hard, but you are clearly there.  I suspect I am not alone in aspiring to getting to the same place. 

[Couscous]

I expected the message to be what anyone would say - like "have a safe drive" "it was nice to see you" "thanks for coming".

Has she ever said things like that before?

[Notwendy]

I'm not sure. It just seems like something that could be said to anyone, kind of generic, but has she said it? I can't recall lately.

I think in part there's some denial there, even false hope, on my part of some kind of normal exchange. Once she realized I was upset in front of her relatives, she sent these over the top love bombing messages that were so over the top it was ridiculous. "Have a safe trip " doesn't fit either the love bombing or the angry projection.

[Notwendy]

I notice how you have successfully separated yourself emotionally from it.  You are sad “for her” which is empathetic, without allowing her anger and accusatory comments hurt you.  

They did and they didn't feel hurtful for me. Looking at the family pictures, my mother was so beautiful, and she had a husband who was in love with her, a nice home. Sad for her that her BPD kept her from being able to perceive it as such.

[Couscous]

They did and they didn't feel hurtful for me. Looking at the family pictures, my mother was so beautiful, and she had a husband who was in love with her, a nice home. Sad for her that her BPD kept her from being able to perceive it as such.

Reading this makes me feel sad for little NotWendy. She deserved to have had a loving home, healthy parents and a happy childhood.

[Notwendy]

Me too Couscous, and for all of us here.

There were some tough times, but oddly - I didn't perceive myself as unhappy. There were sad moments, but overall, I was generally happy. Home life was chaotic and revolved around BPD mother's moods, her rages- it was not happy but my father managed to get us out of the house, send us to stay with relatives and thankfully- they provided love and stability, even on a short term basis, which is why I believe that having emotionally stable adults in a child's life does make a difference, even if it's not all the time.

If this is what we grow up with, it becomes our "normal" even if it's not normal, we don't know any different. We don't know what we didn't experience. Seeing loving mothers in the movies, or reading about them in a book - it feels like reading about another country that sounds really great but I haven't experienced being there.