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Pook075
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« on: March 04, 2023, 02:25:06 PM »

Hi everyone.  I've been separated from my BPD wife for over 7 months now and I think I've come out on the other side with all the stages of grief.  I accept that she has a mental health condition and I feel compassion for her, even though she's gutted me more than I could ever imagine.  Most importantly, I forgive her and I have moved on.

As I shared in another thread, I have always believed in God and shortly after my wife leaving, I had a religious experience that left me humble and more faithful than I've ever been in my life.  God got me through this relatively unscathed compared to other stories I've read here.  Also, I have started recently dating in a long-distance relationship and that's going really well.  Overall, life is really good and we're slated to file for divorce once the one-year mark passes (a requirement in our state).

Now for the part I'm struggling with.  My wife and I are both Christians, and the Bible does say that if a non-believer walks away, to let them go.  I have talked to several Christian pastors/therapists and they believe this passage would apply because my wife just left and refused Christian counseling, attempts at reconciliation, etc.  I also have suspicion that she had an affair just before leaving me, but I'll probably never know for sure.

I do not want to reconcile, but then I ask myself- what about God's will?  That's why I sought a long-distance relationship in the first place, to avoid potential adultery.  But that relationship has advanced much quicker than I expected and there's now talk of meeting up maybe next month.  My mind and heart says to move on, but my faith gives me pause.

I would love to hear some other Christian perspectives, and please feel free to be brutally honest.  Do I continue to wait for my ex to stabilize, seek help, and eventually reconcile?  Or do I take the next step in a new healthy relationship?
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2023, 06:07:39 AM »

Note:  I am a practicing believer, these are my own views and interpretation of the word.  I will quote you, and then comment.

Now for the part I'm struggling with.  My wife and I are both Christians, and the Bible does say that if a non-believer walks away, to let them go.  I have talked to several Christian pastors/therapists and they believe this passage would apply because my wife just left and refused Christian counseling, attempts at reconciliation, etc.  I also have suspicion that she had an affair just before leaving me, but I'll probably never know for sure.

I agree when she left, she became the unbeliever by her actions [not words], and you can divorce, if she filed for the divorce she will become the adultress, and you have permission to leave according to judeo-christian law.  Ask her point blank if she cheated on you, then she admits adultery and you can file for divorce according to the word.  It becomes tricky if you are filing for divorce and do not know if she committed adultery especially if she attends services regularly.


I do not want to reconcile, but then I ask myself- what about God's will?  That's why I sought a long-distance relationship in the first place, to avoid potential adultery.  But that relationship has advanced much quicker than I expected and there's now talk of meeting up maybe next month.  My mind and heart says to move on, but my faith gives me pause.

Avoiding physical adultery you have avoided; however, the mental aspect is a different story, please reference Matthew 5:28 "When I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."  This verse applies to both you and her.  So, if her social media is plastered with some other guy, she has already committed adultery in her heart, and you can move on.

Also be on the lookout for signs from God - supernatural coincidences - I have had many on this journey including my 'SaltyDawg' name.  God speaks to me with these [he has an incredibly dry sense of humor] and in dreams.  However, it is very important to discern God's will versus other influences.  In my personal experience do not look for signs, they will be shown to you on an 'as needed basis', and when they happen it will be very apparent from where they came.

I would love to hear some other Christian perspectives, and please feel free to be brutally honest.  Do I continue to wait for my ex to stabilize, seek help, and eventually reconcile?  Or do I take the next step in a new healthy relationship?

If she is divorcing you, don't stop her, her actions speak for themselves.  If she committed adultery [including emotional], divorce her.  However, if you are doing it because of her illness and adultery is not present, follow your marriage vows.

For more Christian perspective there is a long thread on this topic here at:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=209776.0;all
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2023, 09:53:40 AM »

Hoo boy, time to pull up a chair and LARP as a mainstream Christian.

Obviously my username is a good suggestion of my first advice, "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces” - I have never found a more relevant line in the Gospels reminding you it's also incumbent not just to love and forgive constantly but also to temper that by not allowing yourself to be a perennial victim to a pwBPD and instead draw some gorram lines in the sand.

It is worth remembering that in the verse obviously coming to mind for you, and for any looking at Christian scriptural rules (rather than manmade rules) on divorce - is not quite so simple as we often assume. For example, the ultimate sin for which the husband and the wife will separately be held liable is adultery (ie, it is not the 'abandonment' that is the sin being warned against, it is the prospect of sexual sin when you believe relations with your new sexual partner is kosher/halal - made even more complicated since Timothy and the entire OT make it clear that polygamy was still acceptable. At the time of Henry VIII's scandals, there were clerical voices writing to him that he would take less sin if he actually just took additional wives without divorcing/beheading his previous ones, an interesting thought-experiment). Depending on the translation, and my understanding is that the Greek is itself unclear, you essentially see "A man who divorces his wife TO marry another woman..." - obviously the situation in which you're in is not predicated on trying to wrongly upgrade to a better wife...unless I'm misunderstanding your last sentence and you are now in a new relationship? That would complicate things, not only religiously but also just practically.

I'm a little confused on the timeline here, you sought out a long-distance relationship to avoid the temptation to commit zina/non-marital, then you WERE together in-person and married at some point, now you're living apart for 7 months but concerned you may meet up against next month? If understanding this is relevant to the situation, I'd appreciate a bit of clarification because I'm definitely a little confused. If the two of you identify as just separated right now to each other and yourselves, then even if you did meet up next month and have sex it wouldn't be sinful (just incredibly foolish and unlikely to actually lead to a functional marriage at any point - just further complicating things  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) DO  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) NOT  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) RECOMMEND.  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)) by any measure.

Dios es Uno - God is One.

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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2023, 01:20:55 PM »

I'm a little confused on the timeline here, you sought out a long-distance relationship to avoid the temptation to commit zina/non-marital, then you WERE together in-person and married at some point, now you're living apart for 7 months but concerned you may meet up against next month?

I think you have the timeline right.  Married for 24 years.  Wife walked out in late July 2022, mentioned to our kid the week before she left that she might have feelings for her employer.  Claims to have never done anything with him, but she's consistently hid her location, went into work (at the employer's house) several hours early each day, goes back over there after her shift ends, etc.  Nothing was "wrong" in our marriage though- no arguments or anything like that.  She just became distant for a few months, got super depressed, then walked away after a single conversation. 

She is obsessed over this guy's son, a severely handicapped person.  Claims its her son now and he's clearly her new favorite person.  So while everything points to affair, there's no way to know for sure.  Her BPD makes it tough to decipher what's going on, but she was manic for 8-10 weeks after leaving and completely obsessed over the handicapped person.

A few months ago, a friend introduced me to someone overseas- a single Christian mom. Wasn't expecting anything other than friendship that could possibly lead to more over time, but we get along fantastic and feelings are definitely there both ways.  That's where I'm torn.  We message and video chat daily, but I also feel some guilt that I may not be following God's plan for my future.
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Pook075
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2023, 01:37:10 PM »

I agree when she left, she became the unbeliever by her actions [not words], and you can divorce, if she filed for the divorce she will become the adultress, and you have permission to leave according to judeo-christian law.  Ask her point blank if she cheated on you, then she admits adultery and you can file for divorce according to the word.  It becomes tricky if you are filing for divorce and do not know if she committed adultery especially if she attends services regularly.

Because she was raised in her grandfather's church and lives with her parents, her greatest fear is being seen as non-Christian or an adulterer.  She can't stand the thought of others looking down on her, and for that reason I don't think she'd ever tell me the truth.  She swears that nothing happened and I want to believe her...I just can't 100% because her actions don't match her words.

My kids do say that if anything did happen, it has ended.  But I don't know what to make of that either.

Avoiding physical adultery you have avoided; however, the mental aspect is a different story, please reference Matthew 5:28 "When I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."  This verse applies to both you and her.  So, if her social media is plastered with some other guy, she has already committed adultery in her heart, and you can move on.

She admitted that something "almost happened" with this guy when we were together...she left me 5 days after this incident.  She doesn't post to social media at all though because again, she can't stand being seen as anything other than the devout Christian granddaughter.  The guy is one of the youth leaders in that church.

I have committed adultery (in my heart) over the girl I'm in the long distance relationship with.

Also be on the lookout for signs from God - supernatural coincidences - I have had many on this journey including my 'SaltyDawg' name.  God speaks to me with these [he has an incredibly dry sense of humor] and in dreams.  However, it is very important to discern God's will versus other influences.  In my personal experience do not look for signs, they will be shown to you on an 'as needed basis', and when they happen it will be very apparent from where they came.

At the start of all this, God told me to be patient.  And I was.  But God's timelines are different than ours.  This is where I struggle; friends tell me to move on and forget her, which I take with a grain of salt.  I do keep stumbling on things revolving around reconciliation, which isn't an option since my wife won't talk to me at all.  My pastor (different church than my wife) says that I need to wait until God restores her heart like he restored mine.

If she is divorcing you, don't stop her, her actions speak for themselves.  If she committed adultery [including emotional], divorce her.  However, if you are doing it because of her illness and adultery is not present, follow your marriage vows.

She has said from day one that she's divorcing me as soon as possible- which would be late July.  And again, I have no idea if she committed physical adultery, but it's pretty safe to say that she did so in her heart anyway.

Thanks for the advice- I will also reply to everyone else soon since I'm trying to give honest and thought out answers.
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2023, 06:27:12 PM »

...but I also feel some guilt that I may not be following God's plan for my future.

We're not robots off an assembly line.  We have thinking minds, consciences and emotions.  Probably more too.  God allows us to make choices in our lives as well.  Being imperfect, we can mess up sometimes and really soar at other times.  That's life in an imperfect world.  We try for our reasonable best.

As to God's plan, a better phrase would be God's purpose.  He doesn't dictate the details, just the results.  For example, when he placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, he didn't "plan" for them to eat the forbidden fruit.  That tree was there to represent the limits to their autonomy, that they should listen, respect and obey him.

His stated purpose was for the earth to be filled with perfect humans.  Yes, it got sidetracked along the way, due to Satan's lies, and we all have paid a terrible price down the centuries.  That the earth is not yet filled with perfect humans doesn't mean his "purpose" failed, it just hasn't happened yet since we are still in that 7th creative day waiting for His declaration that it turned out "Good" as happened with the 6 prior creative days/periods.

I hope that explains my understanding of the difference between plan (with specifics) versus purpose (the end goal).
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2023, 07:07:15 PM »

If I read this correctly, the two of you are still married and both are considering divorce. She has had at least an emotional affair and so her possible adultery would justify your decision. Now, you are contemplating meeting up with a woman you are emotionally involved in online. This will take place before the divorce is finalized.

Thinking about the next possible relationship with this nice single Christian lady but if you start a relationship with her while still married- how does this fit with her ethics? IMHO if you both want to give this relationship the best chance and feel you did it right, then maybe you should both be single before meeting up?

Just my 2c. I am no authority on religion nor judgmental but jumping into a relationship while still contemplating the other sounds complicated. I think God is the judge of everyone, not me, but it seems going after forbidden fruit because the woman did it first didn't seem to work too well for Adam... Being cool (click to insert in post)


There are two separate situations here. One is- divorce or not? The other is see this woman or not? Looking at this as a choice between staying with one or seeing the other is confusing the issues because they are two different moral dilemmas. Settle divorce or not first because deciding that, then decides the morality of whether or not to meet up with this woman. If you are divorced, you can date without a moral issue.
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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2023, 07:59:21 PM »

As a religious man, having laid out some of my views above, I'll just clarify that I would not personally
 be comfortable proceeding in the fashion you've described.
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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2023, 08:18:14 AM »

Because she was raised in her grandfather's church and lives with her parents, her greatest fear is being seen as non-Christian or an adulterer.  She can't stand the thought of others looking down on her, and for that reason I don't think she'd ever tell me the truth.  She swears that nothing happened and I want to believe her...I just can't 100% because her actions don't match her words.

My wife and I also attend my wife's church.  My wife's family has been at this church for at least 5 generations if not more.  I understand the extreme shame she will experience if all of her 'i's are not dotted and all of her 't's are not crossed when it comes to Biblical law.  I know she and I have been told to divorce each other by multiple sources, and ideally we should - and if she does, I will not contest the need for it to happen.  However, I will not initiate it, predominantly out of Biblical principles(1 Cor. 7:10-11) and my marriage vows to take care of her 'in [mental] sickness and in health'.  (possibly inspired by the vow in Ruth 1:16-17)

My uBPD wife's current 'favorite person' (FP) is a devout Christian and has followed a similar path to your own.  She is currently separated from her uNPDh in the process of divorce.  Her H is a piece of trash that let her drive herself to the hospital where they immediately put her in the ICU during the initial COVID crises since she could not breathe - statistically a 20% chance of not staying alive at that time if admitted to the ICU.  When she returned from the hospital weeks later, while disabled and on oxygen at home, she was informed that her H wanted to divorce her by twisting scripture with their children, he took a vote, and wanted a divorce.  What her H did is really 'messed up stuff'.  They are still in divorce proceedings to this day, her state also has a 1 year waiting period, it is now more than 2 years later and still not finalized as they cannot come to a financial agreement. 

About 1 year in, the FP dated a gentleman, who was also going through a divorce, while I know she was emotionally attached with him, she followed scriptures and did not have sex with him, I can only surmise that he eventually left her because of this.  Did the FP commit adultery emotionally, probably, physically, unlikely [at least from my wife's accounting of it].  I also understand your intense loneliness and the need to connect emotionally with someone.  Both secular and spiritual sources recommend you get this emotional need for 'intimate conversation' outside of the marriage by someone of the same sex [I get mine here on this website with like-minded individuals] and not someone of the opposite sex [one on one, unlike this site which is like 'group therapy' for me] for heterosexual partners.  Outside of 'therapy' I would not normally talk about being with a borderline person, even though 1 in 10 couples are likely afflicted with some version of a borderline relationship.


My kids do say that if anything did happen, it has ended.  But I don't know what to make of that either.

How old are your children?  How honest are they?  Mine are incredibly honest; however, as it is with all children, you need to discern how much of the truth they are knowledgeable of and how much they are willing to reveal as they don't want to upset either of the parents, both of whom recognize are in a very toxic relationship.  Some of my children's observation skills are spot on, as both of them have been in therapy at some point in time.


She admitted that something "almost happened" with this guy when we were together...she left me 5 days after this incident.  She doesn't post to social media at all though because again, she can't stand being seen as anything other than the devout Christian granddaughter.  The guy is one of the youth leaders in that church.

"Almost happened", perhaps an emotional affair, but not verifiable as one?  Leaving for 5 days is an issue, do you know if it happened with 'this guy'?  Did she leave you for 5 days after you knew about it?  Or, did you question her and discover the 'almost' after she left you for 5 days?

I am assuming that the youth leader has the 'mentally challenged' son?  I am also assuming that this youth leader is either divorced or widowed?  Also is this leader significantly older/younger than your wife? (>10 years)


I have committed adultery (in my heart) over the girl I'm in the long distance relationship with.

I understand your loneliness and your need for an emotional connection - you are only human especially since your wife has emotionally abandoned you.  Even David, a man of God, has had his failings as recounted in the story of Bathsheba in 2 Samuel 11 -- David is also 'human'.  I would suggest praying for discernment in this relationship.

You are asking the 'right questions', just be receptive with discernment to the answers you are hearing.


At the start of all this, God told me to be patient.  And I was.  But God's timelines are different than ours.  This is where I struggle; friends tell me to move on and forget her, which I take with a grain of salt.  I do keep stumbling on things revolving around reconciliation, which isn't an option since my wife won't talk to me at all.  My pastor (different church than my wife) says that I need to wait until God restores her heart like he restored mine.

I agree with most of what you said, except what I put in bold.  Instead of 'restores her heart' it would be better phrased as 'gives a clear sign of her heart's intent' -- when she files for divorce or changes her mind and seeks reconciliation (1 Cor 7:11) which is so often the case with a pwBPD as part of the 'recycle' portion of the BP/NP cycle.  A believer (v 12-14) should not file for divorce, so if she files for divorce (v 15), that would strongly imply that she is an unbeliever ["leaves" by her actions, not her words] "let it be so.  The brother or sister is not bound in such circumstances" (v15).


She has said from day one that she's divorcing me as soon as possible- which would be late July.  And again, I have no idea if she committed physical adultery, but it's pretty safe to say that she did so in her heart anyway.

I'd say her statement is a pretty clear sign of 'her heart's intent'; however, as it has not yet happened, anything could happen, as a pwBPD is not rational, so they could change their mind.  July is 4 months away, you are more than half way there, please be a little more patient.  Also, ask yourself this, if you think("safe to say") she has committed the sin of adultery, is it okay for you to do so?  Two 'wrongs' don't make a 'right'.  Also, the actual divorce could be years away, and subject to being reversal until it actually happens.  It sucks for you [for me, and many of those who are reading this too], as you [we] have a stronger moral compass than most, and as time passes by you [we] are not getting any younger.  Use prayer with discernment on what is best for your situation. 


I will quote Ms. Margalis, "If your minister, good friend, son or daughter were witnessing what is going on, how would they interpret the situation?"  I strongly suggest pondering and discerning that for your 'situation'.

Be sure to take care with good self-care.
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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2023, 09:34:23 AM »

Pook,

I feel for you brother.  I considered myself a devoted Christian, but a very flawed one.  This topic is of great interest to me since I am in a similar situation to you.  Still married almost 30 years.  First 20 years, pretty good I thought.  I know that my wife suffered some horrific abuse when she was growing up.  I accepted a lot of behaviors that I should not have, but overall the marriage was manageable.  I had a high tolerance for BS.  At around 20 years, the wheels came off the bus.  Painted black almost overnight.  I'll leave it at that for now.  Might elaborate more later.

I am going to make some more posts over the next day or two.  Let me start with linking this article.  Replace the woman in this article with me and replace the mental condition BPD/Cluster B -- and this tells my story.  In some ways, I think a high-functioning BPD harder for spouses to deal with because it is less obvious to the outside world than schizophrenia.

Here is the link.  I think you will find the article interesting and would be interested to get people's reactions.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/august-web-only/marriage-and-mental-illness.html


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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2023, 09:36:47 AM »

Pook,

Here is a thread on this form from a few years back.  I think we can all feel for this woman.  There are a lot of relevant posts that I think you will find interesting.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327305.0
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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2023, 10:05:09 AM »

Hi Pook075;

Good question you're raising, about moving on after a relationship with a pwBPD.

24 years is a long time, and your stbxw's (soon to be ex wife) departure was sudden. July 2022 was ~8 months ago.

Couple of thoughts to add to the mix.

Have you heard of the acronym HALT? It stands for Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired, and it reminds us of factors that decrease our ability to make wise, regulated decisions. Anyone who has been "hangry" knows.

I'm curious how you would assess your feelings of loneliness over the last 8 months.

Also, it's been said so much that it might sound like a cliche -- grieving and healing are processes. There's the typical grief process model of Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance, and then our "Detaching/Learning from a BPD relationship" board has lessons on Detaching From the Wounds of a Failed BPD Relationship

Where do you see yourself in your grief/detaching/healing process?

Those lessons contain a link to a discussion on When are we ready to start a new relationship? -- I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that article, and if/how you see it connect to your situation.

-kells76
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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2023, 10:55:39 AM »

I know that my wife suffered some horrific abuse when she was growing up.  I accepted a lot of behaviors that I should not have, but overall the marriage was manageable.  I had a high tolerance for BS.  At around 20 years, the wheels came off the bus.  Painted black almost overnight.  I'll leave it at that for now.  Might elaborate more later.

I am going to make some more posts over the next day or two.  Let me start with linking this article.  Replace the woman in this article with me and replace the mental condition BPD/Cluster B -- and this tells my story.  In some ways, I think a high-functioning BPD harder for spouses to deal with because it is less obvious to the outside world than schizophrenia.

Here is the link.  I think you will find the article interesting and would be interested to get people's reactions.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/august-web-only/marriage-and-mental-illness.html

It's a good article in the sense it draws attention to what frustrates many of us who are religious - the secularists' idea that the only people who caretake BPDs and voluntarily remain in relationships with them must be narcissists, Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). They really do not comprehend the small minority of us who are maligned, stabbed or beaten regularly and it's simply something we take on out of religious obligation, whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim - there's an abiding sense of it that permeates most human interactions. Feel free to PM (nearly impossible to notice the button for new PMs on this website, I've complained for years but this site is clearly committed to its 1992 aesthetics ;) ) if you want, sounds like there may be more common ground than just the religiosity.
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« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2023, 01:12:08 PM »

Hi everyone.  I've been separated from my BPD wife for over 7 months now and I think I've come out on the other side with all the stages of grief.  I accept that she has a mental health condition and I feel compassion for her, even though she's gutted me more than I could ever imagine.  Most importantly, I forgive her and I have moved on.

As I shared in another thread, I have always believed in God and shortly after my wife leaving, I had a religious experience that left me humble and more faithful than I've ever been in my life.  God got me through this relatively unscathed compared to other stories I've read here.  Also, I have started recently dating in a long-distance relationship and that's going really well.  Overall, life is really good and we're slated to file for divorce once the one-year mark passes (a requirement in our state).

Now for the part I'm struggling with.  My wife and I are both Christians, and the Bible does say that if a non-believer walks away, to let them go.  I have talked to several Christian pastors/therapists and they believe this passage would apply because my wife just left and refused Christian counseling, attempts at reconciliation, etc.  I also have suspicion that she had an affair just before leaving me, but I'll probably never know for sure.

I do not want to reconcile, but then I ask myself- what about God's will?  That's why I sought a long-distance relationship in the first place, to avoid potential adultery.  But that relationship has advanced much quicker than I expected and there's now talk of meeting up maybe next month.  My mind and heart says to move on, but my faith gives me pause.

I would love to hear some other Christian perspectives, and please feel free to be brutally honest.  Do I continue to wait for my ex to stabilize, seek help, and eventually reconcile?  Or do I take the next step in a new healthy relationship?

Interesting that I come across this today as I am teaching on divorce from Matt. 5 in Sunday morning class this coming Sunday.  To begin with, I don't have all the answers and probably no one does.  I think it is important to note that what we read about divorce in scripture, especially from Jesus, is based entirely on the law of Moses.  Paul's teachings could be a little different but probably still have a lot of influence.  I too, like it seems others here have said, think that what Jesus was teaching is that divorcing a woman made you liable for the adultery that she would commit upon remarriage.  The only reason that wouldn't be the case is if there had been some sort of sexual immorality.  This would make sense though because in that case she would have already committed the adultery herself. 

Then when you add polygamy into the picture it really makes things difficult as someone else has already said.  A man could have multiple wives in their situations.  Apparently it wasn't considered adultery.  So why would a man then be considered an adulterer for divorcing one woman and marrying another when he could have just married the second without divorcing the first?  The point, like any other "law" in the Bible, is that you have love for your neighbor.  If you truly love God with all your being, and also love your wife as yourself, then you will treat her and handle the situation in a proper manner regardless of the course of action. 

Just to add more food for thought, Christianity as of late has traditionally taught that if one divorces "unbiblically" and remarries then the only proper course of action is to divorce the second and reunite with the first.  However, Jesus never would have taught that.  The law of Moses actually taught that it was an abomination for a woman to return to her first husband after having married another, even if the second husband died.  It would not have been allowed, much less encouraged.
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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2023, 01:45:40 PM »

IMHO if you both want to give this relationship the best chance and feel you did it right, then maybe you should both be single before meeting up?

You would do well to give yourself time apart, for recovery to a certain extent from your current relationship, before starting another relationship.  The phrase is rebound relationship and these have a difficult time to last.  Not that they can't succeed, but sometimes don't.

How much time between relationships varies per person.  (And yes sometimes someone comes along before you anticipated.)  For example, if a lot of your discussions have been describing your marital/divorce woes - can you have entire conversations without mentioning your ex and related issues? - then best to get that out of your system before cultivating a new relationship.  And if it's a matter of months until the final decree, do ponder whether you can wait before making the next step.

Another consideration is to admit that both you and she are putting your best feet forward.  That's to be expected with all new relationships.  It can take some time to be assured your initial impressions are valid.  You certainly don't want to jump from one boiling pot into another, if you get my drift.
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« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2023, 01:58:04 PM »

I would recommend to you this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBKo9_P9SmM

(PearlsBefore, you really need to tune in at about the 2:30 mark !)

I know Jordan Peterson is not a theologian, but I think he has some wise things to say.
I agree with Whoknows, the view on this are all over the map.  I've studied and agonized over this.  I really think it comes down to you study the scriptures, try to apply it to your situation, pray about it, and make the best decision you can.

God gave us the scriptures, but he also gave us a mind to reason things out the very best we can.

Certainly divorce is not good, but we all know the toll the emotional abuse takes on us.  What if that drives us to suicide?  What's worse, divorce or suicide?  You may say this is a false choice or a rationalization  ... but we are all human and have human limitations.  That's my view.

I believe Martin Luther once wrote that he could understand and condone divorce in the case where one spouse is committed to a leper colony. Go figure where you find that in scriptures.




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« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2023, 04:08:13 PM »

Just to add more food for thought, Christianity as of late has traditionally taught that if one divorces "unbiblically" and remarries then the only proper course of action is to divorce the second and reunite with the first.  However, Jesus never would have taught that.  The law of Moses actually taught that it was an abomination for a woman to return to her first husband after having married another, even if the second husband died.  It would not have been allowed, much less encouraged.

I've studied in-depth the past 6+ months and came to the same conclusion.  The Bible says do not divorce...except for adultery.  Some throw abuse into that mix too, since we aren't meant to stay in dangerous relationships.  Some pastors also touch on abandonment, some don't.  But that's the only "reasons" I've come across.

However, I struggle with 1st Corinthians 7:15- if an unbeliever leaves, let them go.  What does "unbeliever" actually mean?

My wife grew up in the church, was saved, and has solid Christian beliefs.  Yet when she had her mental break, she lusted another man and left me a few days later.  She refused counseling, talking to her pastor, or any other form of reconciliation.  Her entire family was against it as well and begged her to try reconciling.  Is that an unbeliever leaving?
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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2023, 04:16:52 PM »

I would recommend to you this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBKo9_P9SmM

(PearlsBefore, you really need to tune in at about the 2:30 mark !)

I know Jordan Peterson is not a theologian, but I think he has some wise things to say.
I agree with Whoknows, the view on this are all over the map.  I've studied and agonized over this.  I really think it comes down to you study the scriptures, try to apply it to your situation, pray about it, and make the best decision you can.

God gave us the scriptures, but he also gave us a mind to reason things out the very best we can.

I've watched that a few times and I agree with him completely.  My oldest daughter is bipolar/BPD and it's true- there was no "saving her" until she was ready to save herself.  It was almost a decade of destruction before she finally wanted to change, and then that change took place quickly (in 9-12 months).  She's a completely different person now.

For my wife, she believes that she has clinical depression and there's nothing else wrong with her.  She checks 7 boxes for BPD and 8 for NPD, plus our family physician diagnosed BPD.  But my wife won't hear it and that means there's no solution.  So I completely agree, I can't save her.

At the same time though, I made a covenant with God to love her in sickness and health, until death do us part.  She's sick, BPD is a sickness.  nd even though she wants nothing to do with me, I can't say for certain that God expects us to walk away.  The reasons for divorce I quoted in the last post, those were meant to be last measures after you try to reconcile and work things out.  I guess I just struggle with the timing- when can you say, "Okay, I've tried.  Now I'm free."

Despite wanting nothing to do with her, I still feel like I should support her and help her because of God.  That's the loop I've been stuck in.
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« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2023, 06:58:48 PM »

I would recommend to you this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBKo9_P9SmM

(PearlsBefore, you really need to tune in at about the 2:30 mark !)

Yup, shaking the dust from your sandals and leaving your family when necessary to follow God instead - it is very difficult certainly; and the "leaving family" bit isn't to improve your life - it's for religious betterment. All very complicated and of course, religion is rarely how we wish it was.
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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2023, 05:12:31 PM »

I would love to hear some other Christian perspectives, and please feel free to be brutally honest.

Hello Pook075,

Your thread really hits home with me, ... that said, I will try my best be brief here, ... ok, ... I too am a Bible believing Christian, failed & dirty, …

I have tried my best to live by the tenants taught in the Bible, I am fifty seven years old now, and I have been married two times, and am presently separated from my second wife.

I have really studied this in deep perspective over the last two years of my 4+ year separation from my second wife.

I thought that I was interpreting the scripture properly, sought pastoral counsel many many times over the years, as my first marriage foundered, and failed, and slowly ended; over an eleven-year period, my first wife and I were married for twenty-one plus years.

My second wife, she was also married before (twenty-years), I thought that I was free and clear to re-marry, according to scripture, but now I believe I was wrong, incorrect in this.

I won’t go on with long explanations, and please excuse my ‘preaching’ … but as others have relayed scripture in this thread, I feel the need to do the same.

First off, I only study the King James (1611 translation), … continuing, no-where in the Bible, does it say that we can legitimately re-marry after we divorce our first, and original spouse, for any reason ... no-where does one read this in scripture.

The apostle Paul does say in Romans (7;1-3) & 1st Corinthians (7;39) …. that if your spouse is dead, then you can re-marry, but only in the Lord (equally yoked), and only to a bonafide widow(er), or someone whom does not have a living former (divorced) spouse, eg’ never previously married.

Jesus speaks to us in Matthew (5;32 & 19;9) that “because of the hardness of your hearts, Moses permitted), … Moses, not God, permitted a ‘bill of divorcement’. Jesus then went on to say, “except it be for fornication’, … please read these two passages very carefully, Matthew was written for the Jews, whom considered an engagement, the same gravity as married, so if your betrothed bride (fiancée today) was found unclean (not a virgin), then the groom could call it all off, before the actual marriage … remembering that under the old law, that actual post marital adultery was punished with stoning to death, … "Joseph sought to put her away quietly" ... she (Mary) was with child, Jesus; by the Holy Spirit, ... So this is what Jesus meant by "except it be for fornication", in Matthew 5;32 & 19;9.

I believe that this was what Jesus meant by “except it be for fornication, whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery”, the Jewish betrothal period", ... not that if you wife/husband cheat (adultery), that the wronged is free to divorce and remarry, no.

Continuing, in the books of Mark (10;11-12) & Luke (16;17-18), Jesus’s teaching is repeated, but the mention of ‘fornication’ is not included, and the teaching is clear, “whomever divorces his wife, and marries another, commits adultery, and whomever marries her that is divorced also commits adultery”.

A question, can a married person commit fornication”, … or is it, if a married person ‘steps out' (sexually), that is always called adultery is it not, not fornication; only an unmarried person commits ‘fornication’ …. So you see how we may fail to ‘get the correct understanding’ of scripture(s).

The apostle Paul teaches further, in 1st Corinthians, the entire chapter 7, … about ‘troubles in marriage’.

He speaks about “if an unbeliever departs”, we are called to peace, he did not say, you can now go and remarry somebody else. He also repeats his teaching from Romans 7;1-3, … which says, only death breaks the marriage covenant, we need to remember that the term covenant is all throughout the Bible.

*covenant = life long promise/commitment*

Paul says, that only if your spouse is dead, can you remarry, and he says “only in the Lord”, … “she will not be called an adulteress, even though she be married to another man”, … because her first husband is dead, covenant is broken.

In the Old Testament, Deuteronomy chapter 24 ; 1-4 … (Moses Law), … that a wife, once now on her 2-3-4 husband may not go back to the first husband, because this would be an abomination before God.

What does all this mean?

I think, and it is a hard lesson, that God’s plan is one man, one wife (Ephesians 5:31-32) for life, and as Romans and Corinthians teaches, only death breaks that convent, that marriage. It says also in 1 Corinthians 6; 8-10 ... it tells us quite specifically about “whom will not inherit the Kingdom” … among the listed are; fornicators, & adulterers.

These are tough passages, but it is the scriptures as we were given, … it says in Matthew 19; 10 … “His disciples say unto him (Jesus), If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.”

#wow!

So, what do I now believe(?), here it is; … I should have never married wife No.2, and she should have never married me, because, both of our former, ex, divorced (put away) spouses were still living (Romans 7;1-3), … her ex-husband is now deceased, but my “ex-wife”, whom I divorced, put away, due to serial unrepentant adultery, and a professed unbeliever now, is still quite alive, she is in fact still with the man she left me to be with seventeen years ago, they have never married.

God see’s your original first marriage as an unbroken covenant, until one of you are dead. This is what the scriptures teach, … so what do I do (we do?),… we live single and celibate, we repent, repenting means to confess, and “turn away from your sin”, … to stop sinning. Jesus told the adulterous woman, "go and sin no more" ... no more! (John 8; 9-11).

Will I divorce my second wife (No.2), … no I won’t, as we are permanently separated now, and she has cancer, and depends on my health care insurance, … so we will stay “married” by earthly law, but we will never live together again, or else commit adultery (together) by having sex together, that ship has sailed, ... could I ever be with my first wife again, ... no, as I remarried (Deuteronomy chapter 24 ; 1-4)...

Adultery is an act, … not a ‘way of life’, … so there it is, ... peace?

This is a very hard teaching, but I believe it is the truth, as the scripture reads, says to us.

I do not mean to upset, or anger anyone; we must all study, and show ourselves “approved”.

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) ‘Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.’

John 14; (15) If ye love me, keep my commandments. (16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Continuing ...

I too love Jordan Peterson, I have listened to many of his presentations, that said, I will offer this vid/ ... it is a bit ‘hard to hear’, … this Preacher is teaching the Bible Truth,… he seems to explain it all very well.

Link-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fGkm9Acoyk

Closing; if you are still married to your first/covenant wife, then do all you can to save your marriage, do not divorce, but if you do, remain single and celibate, and serve the Lord, remarriage while your first wife (husband) is still living, is a sin (adultery), scripture is dead clear on this, ... if they are abusive, then you can separate, but do not divorce, but if you do, stay single and celibate.

The apostle Paul wrote, "And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband, ... But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband" ... "And let not the husband put away his wife" ... "Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife" ... #1st Corinthians chapter 7

Malachi 2; 14-15 (14) Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

(15) And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.


~Red//
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« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2023, 06:38:34 PM »

I would love to hear some other Christian perspectives, and please feel free to be brutally honest.

Hello Pook075,

Your thread really hits home with me, ... that said, I will try my best be brief here, ... ok, ... I too am a Bible believing Christian, failed & dirty, …

I have tried my best to live by the tenants taught in the Bible, I am fifty seven years old now, and I have been married two times, and am presently separated from my second wife.

I have really studied this in deep perspective over the last two years of my 4+ year separation from my second wife.

I thought that I was interpreting the scripture properly, sought pastoral counsel many many times over the years, as my first marriage foundered, and failed, and slowly ended; over an eleven-year period, my first wife and I were married for twenty-one plus years.

My second wife, she was also married before (twenty-years), I thought that I was free and clear to re-marry, according to scripture, but now I believe I was wrong, incorrect in this.

I won’t go on with long explanations, and please excuse my ‘preaching’ … but as others have relayed scripture in this thread, I feel the need to do the same.

First off, I only study the King James (1611 translation), … continuing, no-where in the Bible, does it say that we can legitimately re-marry after we divorce our first, and original spouse, for any reason ... no-where does one read this in scripture.

The apostle Paul does say in Romans (7;1-3) & 1st Corinthians (7;39) …. that if your spouse is dead, then you can re-marry, but only in the Lord (equally yoked), and only to a bonafide widow(er), or someone whom does not have a living former (divorced) spouse, eg’ never previously married.

Jesus speaks to us in Matthew (5;32 & 19;9) that “because of the hardness of your hearts, Moses permitted), … Moses, not God, permitted a ‘bill of divorcement’. Jesus then went on to say, “except it be for fornication’, … please read these two passages very carefully, Matthew was written for the Jews, whom considered an engagement, the same gravity as married, so if your betrothed bride (fiancée today) was found unclean (not a virgin), then the groom could call it all off, before the actual marriage … remembering that under the old law, that actual post marital adultery was punished with stoning to death, … "Joseph sought to put her away quietly" ... she (Mary) was with child, Jesus; by the Holy Spirit, ... So this is what Jesus meant by "except it be for fornication", in Matthew 5;32 & 19;9.

I believe that this was what Jesus meant by “except it be for fornication, whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery”, the Jewish betrothal period", ... not that if you wife/husband cheat (adultery), that the wronged is free to divorce and remarry, no.

Continuing, in the books of Mark (10;11-12) & Luke (16;17-18), Jesus’s teaching is repeated, but the mention of ‘fornication’ is not included, and the teaching is clear, “whomever divorces his wife, and marries another, commits adultery, and whomever marries her that is divorced also commits adultery”.

A question, can a married person commit fornication”, … or is it, if a married person ‘steps out' (sexually), that is always called adultery is it not, not fornication; only an unmarried person commits ‘fornication’ …. So you see how we may fail to ‘get the correct understanding’ of scripture(s).

The apostle Paul teaches further, in 1st Corinthians, the entire chapter 7, … about ‘troubles in marriage’.

He speaks about “if an unbeliever departs”, we are called to peace, he did not say, you can now go and remarry somebody else. He also repeats his teaching from Romans 7;1-3, … which says, only death breaks the marriage covenant, we need to remember that the term covenant is all throughout the Bible.

*covenant = life long promise/commitment*

Paul says, that only if your spouse is dead, can you remarry, and he says “only in the Lord”, … “she will not be called an adulteress, even though she be married to another man”, … because her first husband is dead, covenant is broken.

In the Old Testament, Deuteronomy chapter 24 ; 1-4 … (Moses Law), … that a wife, once now on her 2-3-4 husband may not go back to the first husband, because this would be an abomination before God.

What does all this mean?

I think, and it is a hard lesson, that God’s plan is one man, one wife (Ephesians 5:31-32) for life, and as Romans and Corinthians teaches, only death breaks that convent, that marriage. It says also in 1 Corinthians 6; 8-10 ... it tells us quite specifically about “whom will not inherit the Kingdom” … among the listed are; fornicators, & adulterers.

These are tough passages, but it is the scriptures as we were given, … it says in Matthew 19; 10 … “His disciples say unto him (Jesus), If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.”

#wow!

So, what do I now believe(?), here it is; … I should have never married wife No.2, and she should have never married me, because, both of our former, ex, divorced (put away) spouses were still living (Romans 7;1-3), … her ex-husband is now deceased, but my “ex-wife”, whom I divorced, put away, due to serial unrepentant adultery, and a professed unbeliever now, is still quite alive, she is in fact still with the man she left me to be with seventeen years ago, they have never married.

God see’s your original first marriage as an unbroken covenant, until one of you are dead. This is what the scriptures teach, … so what do I do (we do?),… we live single and celibate, we repent, repenting means to confess, and “turn away from your sin”, … to stop sinning. Jesus told the adulterous woman, "go and sin no more" ... no more! (John 8; 9-11).

Will I divorce my second wife (No.2), … no I won’t, as we are permanently separated now, and she has cancer, and depends on my health care insurance, … so we will stay “married” by earthly law, but we will never live together again, or else commit adultery (together) by having sex together, that ship has sailed, ... could I ever be with my first wife again, ... no, as I remarried (Deuteronomy chapter 24 ; 1-4)...

Adultery is an act, … not a ‘way of life’, … so there it is, ... peace?

This is a very hard teaching, but I believe it is the truth, as the scripture reads, says to us.

I do not mean to upset, or anger anyone; we must all study, and show ourselves “approved”.

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) ‘Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.’

John 14; (15) If ye love me, keep my commandments. (16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Continuing ...

I too love Jordan Peterson, I have listened to many of his presentations, that said, I will offer this vid/ ... it is a bit ‘hard to hear’, … this Preacher is teaching the Bible Truth,… he seems to explain it all very well.

Link-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fGkm9Acoyk

Closing; if you are still married to your first/covenant wife, then do all you can to save your marriage, do not divorce, but if you do, remain single and celibate, and serve the Lord, remarriage while your first wife (husband) is still living, is a sin (adultery), scripture is dead clear on this, ... if they are abusive, then you can separate, but do not divorce, but if you do, stay single and celibate.

The apostle Paul wrote, "And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband, ... But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband" ... "And let not the husband put away his wife" ... "Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife" ... #1st Corinthians chapter 7

Malachi 2; 14-15 (14) Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

(15) And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.


~Red//


Hey Red, thanks for your interpretation...that's exactly why I asked for honest opinions because it gives me something to think about.  I honestly do not know the answer here and you're right- a valid reason for divorce is not necessarily a valid reason to remarry.  My pastor has a different interpretation, that once the covenant is broken, it sets the believing, non-cheater free.

Another question- if you marry someone that turns out to be a non-believer, were you ever married to begin with in the eyes of God?  The Bible says to stay with them since they're made pure through you, but to let them walk if they want to walk.

God weighs heavily on my heart and it's why I've continued to struggle with this decision.  I have decided that I will not file for divorce and I'll leave it up to her.  I can't say that I won't remarry though if that comes to pass.

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« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2023, 08:49:01 PM »

I don't think we need to get too technical here, fornication and adultery are discussing the same improper behavior except one is outside the marriage arrangement and the other is by persons who are married.  In a manner of speaking, if one person is single and the other is married, then one would be committing fornication and the other adultery.  Do we need to split hairs?

Matthew 19:9 - "I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery."  Simply divorcing is not in itself sexually immoral.  It is the remarrying if there was not an immorality basis by the other spouse for the divorce.

Another question- if you marry someone that turns out to be a non-believer, were you ever married to begin with in the eyes of God?  The Bible says to stay with them since they're made pure through you, but to let them walk if they want to walk.

The point here is that if the spouse decides to leave, we can let the person go.  We can't generally force behavior on others, even our spouse.  But if they're agreeable to stay and it's not abusive or overly damaging to you then stay.

It can also be a matter that you have to divorce.  In my case I had to do so to get distance apart in order to legally preserve and enforce my parenting rights and responsibilities, since remaining married would have left my custody and parenting too vague and too legally undefined.  However, even if I had basis to divorce, that does not mean a person can just seek another wife... was there more than a legal basis - a scriptural/religious basis - that the other had violated the marriage?  So, to be free remarry scripturally the marriage's end would have to have a scriptural basis, namely, some violation of the marital bond such as adultery.

If you forgive the other's adultery, which is your option/choice to do - many have stayed together after adultery events - then you can't decide later, after you decided to remain in the marriage effectively being forgiving of the wrong, to later decide that past "forgiveness" event is now rescinded.  Of course if adultery happens again, a spouse is not required to continue being the forgiving sort.  Sort of, "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

A final note... this is a topic where we can have a wide range of perceptions and perspectives.  We don't want to step on anyone's toes nor offend their sensibilities.  This is where we can make allowances and remain content with one another's diverse opinions as we all seek comfort and support here. Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2023, 08:28:39 AM »

I've studied in-depth the past 6+ months and came to the same conclusion.  The Bible says do not divorce...except for adultery.  Some throw abuse into that mix too, since we aren't meant to stay in dangerous relationships.  Some pastors also touch on abandonment, some don't.  But that's the only "reasons" I've come across.

However, I struggle with 1st Corinthians 7:15- if an unbeliever leaves, let them go.  What does "unbeliever" actually mean?

My wife grew up in the church, was saved, and has solid Christian beliefs.  Yet when she had her mental break, she lusted another man and left me a few days later.  She refused counseling, talking to her pastor, or any other form of reconciliation.  Her entire family was against it as well and begged her to try reconciling.  Is that an unbeliever leaving?

Wow there is so much in this whole thread.  No wonder the topic is so difficult Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) first to address 1 Corinthians 7.  I think the number one thing to keep in mind here is that Paul is talking to gentiles.  The statement there would not carry the same weight with a Jewish crowd because all of them would be believers in God.  For the gentiles though, this would not be the case.  In probably a lot of those relationships you would have been dealing with two people who did not believe in or worship Jehovah when they were married.  Then at some point one of them would have been converted by the ministering to the Gentiles.  It's easy to see that this could cause problems in the home life.  I believe that is was Paul meant by an unbeliever.

I think the biggest obstacle that people face when trying to interpret today is that it's hard not to do it through a 21st century lens.  When we think marriage today we think monogamy.  That wasn't always the case in the first century though, especially with Bible related audiences.  That must play into our interpretations or else we are interpreting things from a different perspective that the one that they were written in.  For example, just a few verses earlier in 1 corinthians 7 Paul said that the people who were not married would do best to remain single like he was and not get married.  Do you ever hear anyone teaching that in a sermon?  No, but he said it.  So why did he say it?  The Romans were about to destroy Israel all together as a judgement from God.  It was going to shake the entire world, and for anyone who professed faith in God and Jesus, they would be greatly affected.  Paul and all the other apostles knew this, and they were attempting to prepare the church, both Jew and Gentile, for this event so that they could escape the wrath of God.  This greatly influenced the way they taught, and not using this lens when interpreting causes us to miss a lot of context within the teaching

Others have stated that Moses permitted but God did not allow, when talking about divorce laws in the law of Moses.  What we fail to mention in that scenario too often is that what Moses permitted was a law that God gave to him on the mountain.  Moses didn't make those things up on his own.  Yes it was because of the hardness of the hearts of the men.  God knew they would divorce no matter what he wanted so he made a way for the women to be taken care of when they did.  It didn't make divorce ok, it just made safety for the woman after the men did something that wasn't ok.  So while Moses said it, God was the one who told him to say it.  He allowed the woman to get remarried and we all know that God would not allow sin.  That's why adultery was punished with death but remarriage wasn't.
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« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2023, 01:04:18 PM »

If you forgive the other's adultery, which is your option/choice to do - many have stayed together after adultery events - then you can't decide later, after you decided to remain in the marriage effectively being forgiving of the wrong, to later decide that past "forgiveness" event is now rescinded.  Of course if adultery happens again, a spouse is not required to continue being the forgiving sort.  Sort of, "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

A final note... this is a topic where we can have a wide range of perceptions and perspectives.  We don't want to step on anyone's toes nor offend their sensibilities.  This is where we can make allowances and remain content with one another's diverse opinions as we all seek comfort and support here. Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

I agree.  None of us are Biblical scholars and I expected varying opinions, which is great for conversation as long as we remain civil to each other and realize that nobody is going to be "proven right". 

The only thing I'd question that you said was, "if you forgive the other's adultery...".  All of us are called on to forgive, just as we seek and receive forgiveness.  To me, that's not the same as just accepting a spouse back because you still have to build trust and a relationship afterwards.  I would imagine that in many cases, that would be very difficult even with forgiveness. 

Throw in the BPD factor of knowing another cycle is coming, and yeah...it's scary stuff.  I don't think it can happen without God's intervention and a truly fresh start.

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« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2023, 11:49:31 PM »

I was and am still in the same boat but maybe my situation was a bit more obvious that I can leave.  Not only do I have evidence of an affair, she actually got pregnant by the guy and had a miscarriage.    She broke it off with me before I confronted her about the affair.   I was planning to a few days after in counseling session.

The 3-4 days while waiting to confront her with my counselor was excruciating as she was building a case for why she was divorcing me each day.  So she came out slandering me to her Christian family because they had to support her divorce and was mentally and verbally abusive towards me.   She even pretended to be "depressed" by our broken marriage.   But I knew she was breaking it off because she was jumping ship.

So ya I didn't really have a choice really as she wanted it.   But something in my mind thought that she broke it off thinking if her affair partner didn't work out, I'd come back easily due to our beliefs.   But turns out I knew about it and then she even got pregnant.

TBH I could be wrong but I feel like God informed me about the situation and revealed her true colors.   Maybe because I was fighting for our marriage for 2 years in counseling as she was a quarrelsome wife.  (Check out Solomon's passage on a quarrelsome wife).   

Eventually she admitted that she gets off on arguing.    I hope to get out of my divorced unscathed and with proper custody of my 3 year old.  It's also the right time if any if I were to ever divorce her because my child is still young enough not to be emotionally damaged by separating parents.
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« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2023, 11:53:39 PM »

I agree.  None of us are Biblical scholars and I expected varying opinions, which is great for conversation as long as we remain civil to each other and realize that nobody is going to be "proven right". 

The only thing I'd question that you said was, "if you forgive the other's adultery...".  All of us are called on to forgive, just as we seek and receive forgiveness.  To me, that's not the same as just accepting a spouse back because you still have to build trust and a relationship afterwards.  I would imagine that in many cases, that would be very difficult even with forgiveness. 

Throw in the BPD factor of knowing another cycle is coming, and yeah...it's scary stuff.  I don't think it can happen without God's intervention and a truly fresh start.



Jesus says that we have to rebuke.    There has to be a degree of remorse and asking for forgiveness.   I think a lot of suspected bpds would not do this tbh.  Mine sure did not.
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« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2023, 12:06:30 AM »


She is obsessed over this guy's son, a severely handicapped person.  Claims its her son now and he's clearly her new favorite person.  So while everything points to affair, there's no way to know for sure.  Her BPD makes it tough to decipher what's going on, but she was manic for 8-10 weeks after leaving and completely obsessed over the handicapped person.


Oh my, I will tell you my ex bpd wife, our psychiatrist diagnosed her for Bipolar because she was manic for over a month.   She was too obsessed with her affair partner and he was the source of her being emotional 24-7.   It's the combination of limerance occurring while someone has bpd or bipolar.  I suspect bpd over bipolar due to her mania being circumstance.  And I am also getting split by her.
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« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2023, 09:07:27 AM »

Oh my, I will tell you my ex bpd wife, our psychiatrist diagnosed her for Bipolar because she was manic for over a month.   She was too obsessed with her affair partner and he was the source of her being emotional 24-7.   It's the combination of limerance occurring while someone has bpd or bipolar.  I suspect bpd over bipolar due to her mania being circumstance.  And I am also getting split by her.

My 24 year old daughter is diagnosed bipolar and BPD, so I'm guessing it's the same for my wife if she ever tried to get an official diagnosis.  I don't think you can be manic for 10 weeks with BPD alone.

I heard an interesting sermon yesterday that applies to all of us.  The pastor was talking about how the devil tempts us to sin and reject marriage, but only God allows our spouses to walk away.  In other words, the devil has no authority over Christians and can only do what God allows him to do in order to test our faith.

I know that's true in my case because I was putting my wife first over God.  I wasn't praying or going to church like I should, and I hadn't opened my Bible in years.  Long story short, my wife insisted on going to the church she grew up in, and I really didn't like the church for reasons I won't get into.  My wife would go to other churches with me but she'd also complain the entire time, so I just stopped going to church completely and gave her what she wanted.  Big mistake and that's on me.

Maybe a week after she left, I wasn't eating or sleeping, completely devastated, and I woke up at like 1:30 AM with a screaming urge to get out of the house.  So I hopped in my car and just started driving, thinking maybe I'll go to 7Eleven on the other side of town and grab a slurpee or something like that.  But when I got close to the interstate, I suddenly had this thought that I had to go to my mother...it was like a panic in my brain and I'd never experienced anything like that before.  I had to go to my mother.  The only problem was, my mother had passed years ago and we scattered her ashes in the Blue Ridge Parkway (her wishes), which was several hours away.  And off I went.

So I'm driving on 2 hours of sleep, crying my eyes out, and barely able to focus on the road.  I'm thinking about turning around but another thought 'appears' that if I go up that mountain, I won't come off it with all this pain and grief.  And I'm thinking to myself, "Am I suicidal?  I don't think I am..."  But the thought just keeps cycling through my brain, if you go up that mountain, you won't come down with all this pain.

For maybe the next hour of the drive, I think about all the heartache in my life- friends and family that have passed, mistakes in my marriage, mistakes just in life in general, and I was probably at the lowest point in my life.  Crying like a baby.  Shaking like a leaf.  And a new thought began to form- "Turn around, you don't want what's on that mountain.  Turn around and go home."  But I kept driving anyway and I honestly can't tell you why other than blind faith.  I was being called towards glory and the devil did his best to get me to head for anything but that mountain.

Fast forward a few hours and I reached the entrance to the Blue Ridge in Asheville, NC.  I was out of gas and I realized that if I kept going, I wouldn't be able to drive off that mountain at all.  So I just sat there in the road for maybe 15 minutes, contemplating what to do next.  It's like 4 AM and pitch black out, and its almost like I'm having a conversation with myself trying to figure out if I'm going up that mountain to live or going there to die.  Because I really don't know either way.

About that time, a song came on the radio- St. Elmo's Fire from the 80's.  I hadn't been paying any attention to the music for the past several hours, but something in my brain clicked and I thought, "I've always loved that song, I'm going to turn it up."  And that first verse is talking about making it just a few more miles down the road before climbing a mountain.  And suddenly I'm sort of leveled out and thinking clearly, I'm actually singing along a little bit and maybe even smiling.  I turn around and go back to a gas station a few miles back, pump my gas, then head back up the mountain.

By now you're probably wondering, does Pook have a history of mental illness?  Nope, I do not.  I do not have a history of hearing voices or having random thoughts pop in my head and dominate my thoughts.  God was calling me.  I drove for maybe another 40 minutes and arrived to where I thought we scattered my mom's ashes (impossible to tell because it's pitch black up in the mountains at night).  And I just sat there, not fully understanding what was going on or why I had just driven 3 hours in the middle of the night.  

I really had to pee though, so I got out of the car and headed for the closest tree.  And as I'm doing my business, I look up at the night sky and I'm in absolute awe of the stars and the galaxy, it was truly stunning.  But about the same time I think of heaven and it absolutely rocks me with emotion.  I stumble back to the car, barely get into the seat, and I start to pray.  I think the only thing I got out was, "God, help me..."

This is not a religious site so I'll end the story there, other than to say that I was healed mind, body, and soul in that instant.  I felt surrounded by peace, love, joy, and grace and I understood in the moment that those are what comes from God; everything else comes from this Earth and is not meant to live in our hearts.  We're not meant to carry any of it; the hate, the anger, the judgement...none of that is meant for us.  And I let it all go, every bit of it, as my mind filled with joy and grace as the Holy Spirit washed over me.  This wasn't salvation, but complete redemption.  

Feel free to PM me if you want specific details; I don't want to get too deep here.

From that moment forward, I have lived my life differently.  I was humbled, cleansed, and I take nothing for granted anymore.  I also saw my wife in a completely different light and I feel nothing but compassion for her.  Yes, some bitterness and anger pops up from time to time still, but I try not to hang onto it for long.

I told that story to tell this one: if my wife didn't leave, I never make it up that mountain to have my life transformed.  Maybe the devil led my wife astray and into temptation, but God allowed it for a greater purpose in my life.  She had to go and I fully accept that now, and it's also the reason I've struggled so much to say that it's over.  Mentally I've moved on and healed, which I give God all the credit for, because I understand that my wife has to walk her own path and hopefully find her own calling.  I've prayed for that every day since coming off that mountain.  

But I also realize that God's time is much different from ours- we think, "I've waited 7 months"...like that's impressive to God or something.  That's why I've been so stuck here.  Even though I've let go of the past, I'm hesitant to fully move on because the covenant of marriage is between three people with God in the center.  We're called to forgive and wipe the slate clean, just like God does for us.  And this is in His hands now, not to return to a broken, dysfunctional marriage, but a rebirth and living in his grace as man/wife are meant to.

Anyway, that's my testimony...sorry it's so long.  I've been wanting to share it and hopefully it helps someone else on their journey someday.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2023, 12:33:52 PM by Pook075 » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2023, 10:13:26 AM »

My 24 year old daughter is diagnosed bipolar and BPD, so I'm guessing it's the same for my wife if she ever tried to get an official diagnosis.  I don't think you can be manic for 10 weeks with BPD alone.

I heard an interesting sermon yesterday that applies to all of us.  The pastor was talking about how the devil tempts us to sin and reject marriage, but only God allows our spouses to walk away.  In other words, the devil has no authority over Christians and can only do what God allows him to do in order to test our faith.

I know that's true in my case because I was putting my wife first over God.  I wasn't praying or going to church like I should, and I hadn't opened my Bible in years.  Long story short, my wife insisted on going to the church she grew up in, and I really didn't like the church for reasons I won't get into.  My wife would go to other churches with me but she'd also complain the entire time, so I just stopped going to church completely and gave her what she wanted.  Big mistake and that's on me.

Maybe a week after she left, I wasn't eating or sleeping, completely devastated, and I woke up at like 1:30 AM with a screaming urge to get out of the house.  So I hopped in my car and just started driving, thinking maybe I'll go to 7Eleven on the other side of town and grab a slurpee or something like that.  But when I got close to the interstate, I suddenly had this thought that I had to go to my mother...it was like a panic in my brain and I'd never experienced anything like that before.  I had to go to my mother.  The only problem was, my mother had passed year ago and we scattered her ashes in the Blue Ridge Parkway (her wishes), which was several hours away.  And off I went.

So I'm driving on 2 hours of sleep, crying my eyes out, and barely able to focus on the road.  I'm thinking about turning around but another thought 'appears' that if I go up that mountain, I won't come off it with all this pain and grief.  And I'm thinking to myself, "Am I suicidal?  I don't think I am..."  But the thought just keeps cycling through my brain, if you go up that mountain, you won't come down with all this pain.

For maybe the next hour of the drive, I think about all the heartache in my life- friends and family that have passed, mistakes in my marriage, mistakes just in life in general, and I was probably at the lowest point in my life.  Crying like a baby.  Shaking like a leaf.  And a new thought began to form- "Turn around, you don't want what's on that mountain.  Turn around and go home."  But I kept driving anyway and I honestly can't tell you why other than blind faith.  I was being called towards glory and the devil did his best to get me to head for anything but that mountain.

Fast forward a few hours and I reached the entrance to the Blue Ridge in Asheville, NC.  I was out of gas and I realized that if I kept going, I wouldn't be able to drive off that mountain at all.  So I just sat there in the road for maybe 15 minutes, contemplating what to do next.  It's like 4 AM and pitch black out, and its almost like I'm having a conversation with myself trying to figure out if I'm going up that mountain to live or going there to die.  Because I really don't know either way.

About that time, a song came on the radio- St. Elmo's Fire from the 80's.  I hadn't been paying any attention to the music for the past several hours, but something in my brain clicked and I thought, "I've always loved that song, I'm going to turn it up."  And that first verse is talking about making it just a few more miles down the road before climbing a mountain.  And suddenly I'm sort of leveled out and thinking clearly, I'm actually singing along a little bit and maybe even smiling.  I turn around and go back to a gas station a few miles back, pump my gas, then head back up the mountain.

By now you're probably wondering, does Pook have a history of mental illness?  Nope, I do not.  I do not have a history of hearing voices or having random thoughts pop in my head and dominate my thoughts.  God was calling me.  I drove for maybe another 40 minutes and arrived to where I thought we scattered my mom's ashes (impossible to tell because it's pitch black up in the mountains at night).  And I just sat there, not fully understanding what was going on or why I had just driven 3 hours in the middle of the night. 

I really had to pee though, so I got out of the car and headed for the closest tree.  And as I'm doing my business, I look up at the night sky and I'm in absolute awe of the stars and the galaxy, it was truly stunning.  But about the same time I think of heaven and it absolutely rocks me with emotion.  I stumble back to the car, barely get into the seat, and I start to pray.  I think the only thing I got out was, "God, help me..."

This is not a religious site so I'll end the story there, other than to say that I was healed mind, body, and soul in that instant.  I felt surrounded by peace, love, joy, and grace and I understood in the moment that those are what comes from God; everything else comes from this Earth and is not meant to live in our hearts.  We're not meant to carry any of it; the hate, the anger, the judgement...none of that is meant for us.  And I let it all go, every bit of it, as my mind filled with joy and grace as the Holy Spirit washed over me.  This wasn't salvation, but complete redemption. 

Feel free to PM me if you want specific details; I don't want to get too deep here.

From that moment forward, I have lived my life differently.  I was humbled, cleansed, and I take nothing for granted anymore.  I also saw my wife in a completely different light and I feel nothing but compassion for her.  Yes, some bitterness and anger pops up from time to time still, but I try not to hang onto it for long.

I told that story to tell this one: if my wife didn't leave, I never make it up that mountain to have my life transformed.  Maybe the devil led my wife astray and into temptation, but God allowed it for a greater purpose in my life.  She had to go and I fully accept that now, and it's also the reason I've struggled so much to say that it's over.  Mentally I've moved on and healed, which I give God all the credit for, because I understand that my wife has to walk her own path and hopefully find her own calling.  I've prayed for that every day since coming off that mountain. 

But I also realize that God's time is much different from ours- we think, "I've waited 7 months"...like that's impressive to God or something.  That's why I've been so stuck here.  Even though I've let go of the past, I'm hesitant to fully move on because the covenant of marriage is between three people with God in the center.  We're called to forgive and wipe the slate clean, just like God does for us.  And this is in His hands now, not to return to a broken, dysfunctional marriage, but a rebirth and living in his grace as man/wife are meant to.

Anyway, that's my testimony...sorry it's so long.  I've been wanting to share it and hopefully it helps someone else on their journey someday.

That's an amazing experience.  Many, many times we probably dismiss God and the things he is trying to show us.  I know this goes for me as I am a highly logical person who refuses to act out of emotion.  Sometimes it's possible that I may dismiss a providential thought thinking it is a selfish emotion that may be creeping up.  I'm trying to be more aware of those instances now. 

It's also interesting how that gave such a different perspective with the divorce.  In our Wednesday night bible study last night I was teaching on the last few chapters of Ezra.  After the Hebrews return from Babylon with the second part of the remnant they began to intermarry with the idolatrous people in the land.  Upon recognizing their sin, it was decided that they should put away those wives.  Apparently this was within God's will.  One might say, "well they were unbelieving wives".  While true the only teaching we have on unbelieving wives is that it's ok to let them go if THEY choose to leave.  In this instance though, they had no choice.  The men made the choice for them.  God doesn't make exceptions with sin, so this scenario has to fit into the overall principle as well. 

Apologies, I didn't mean to highjack your testimony with more theology but your perspective made me think about that particular passage
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« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2023, 10:28:32 AM »

*engiebpd wrote*
"Not only do I have evidence of an affair, she actually got pregnant by the guy and had a miscarriage"

A quick 'war story'

Back in 2006, {wife No.1, child bride, 21 years, three months, eight days married, three children, all teenagers at that time period} ... the day that our divorce was to be signed by the Judge, (I was the one that filed), ... I met my "wife" at the local park about three hours before the hearing, ... and I asked her (*I was still in deep FOG, & cognitive dissonance*), ... I said to her; ... "we have been married for a very long time, you have been the love of my life, we have three children together, we have been through bad times before (cheating/adultery/abandonment), ... "are you absolutely sure that you want me to go through with this" (*she wanted the divorce*) ... her reply was, ...

... "Let me tell you something that will help you out today, when you go to see the Judge, I had an abortion about three months ago" ...

...my heart stopped ...

Now, this absolutely devastated me, and filled me with great anger, and sadness all at the same time, ... you see; ... I had just returned from Japan (six month deployment), we had not been sexual in over eleven months ... and I knew that she was with this other man interim, while I was gone, ... but my cognitive dissonance prevented me from believing that she had committed adultery (again) with this man, in fact I begged her for months, to not exit the marriage, ...

I asked her after she said this to me (gasping for breath, head spinning), ... "how far along were you?", ... she said "ten weeks" ...

I was absolutely crushed, again, ... this was worse than 1994-1995, when this  had all happened before, this was even worse, due to her telling me about the abortion, ... at that point, standing there in the warm Florida sun, I felt that she was turning into a pillar of salt, right in front of me, ... (Genesis 19:26) ... she became a defiled abomination to me, ... instantly ...

So I went through with the divorce hearing a few hours later, ... that was seventeen years ago now, come the 22nd of this month, ...

My teenage children went with me, so I was a single dad for the five years thereafter.

I went on to be married (remarried) again, to my present wife (now separated) five years later.

My present wife; she is (I am quite certain) an un-diagnosed bpd (npd traits).

My first wife, had all manner of mental/emotional problems, due to childhood sexual abuse (incest), ... but what do you know at age eighteen (she was sixteen), ... when we married.

Yes, to hear that your estranged (or not) wife, was with child; from another man, ... that is pretty devastating, and the fact that she terminated the pregnancy, ... that is even more disconcerting (my beliefs), ... that fact (occurrence/betrayal) by itself, sealed the end of that marriage for me, ... #defilement

I thought I had learned some things from marriage #1, (which almost killed me; literally) but I did not, ... marriage #2 has taught me things I never knew before, ... & what an education (painful).

-Red5
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“We are so used to our own history, we do not see it as remarkable or out of the ordinary, whereas others might see it as horrendous. Further, we tend to minimize that which we feel shameful about.” {Quote} Patrick J. Carnes / author,
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« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2023, 10:38:06 AM »

Keeping it short as possible...  

God has given me signs for both of the women I have been involved with pwBPD.

#1 - 1997-2000, uBPD/NPD/+/exgf - I received a sign in ~1982, a vivid dream, to run like hell when a certain set of circumstances were to happen well before I would eventually come across her, while I was still in high-school, and he gave me several more signs from 1997-2000 too, since I never really listen to well to him or others he was using to give me this.  When I finally did listen, I ran straight into...

#2 - 2001 - now, uBPD/OCPDw - I have received several signs to stay, so I am staying and I am suffering - God has already used me countless times in selfless and incredible ways - he has a bigger purpose for me, I do not know what; however, I have faith, it will eventually come.  I've been wanting to leave for over a decade, and God has his own timeline for me.  

Right now he has used many people to help grow emotionally and spiritually from sources I would have never considered including another self-aware borderline person among others from all of the world's Abrahamic religions who have the same God - Christianity, Muslim, & Jewish all of whom share holy writings that can be found in the Old Testament.  All humans are God's children.

Go to church, pray for discernment.  Do not actively look for a sign, as that opens you to dark influences.  A sign / dream / vision will come when you least expect it, just be patient.

In the mean time, take care with self-care.

P.S.  In the meantime, I wouldn't mind a PM of your story.
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ForeverDad
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Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2023, 10:59:23 AM »

But I also realize that God's time is much different from ours- we think, "I've waited 7 months"...like that's impressive to God or something.

I was in my early 20s when I gave a discourse/sermon on God's perspective of time versus ours.  It was the third time I'd read the source material and only then, once I was old enough to ponder deeply, did I have my Aha! moment.

The longer we live, the closer our view of time becomes to God's perspective.
Excerpt
How Time Moves Faster. There is an old saying that "a watched kettle never boils." It is true that when we are watching time, when we are conscious of it, when we are waiting for something to happen, then it seems to pass ever so slowly. However, if we are busy, if we are interested in and preoccupied with what we are doing, then it really appears that "time flies." Moreover, with older people time seems to pass much more quickly than with young children. Why is this? One year added to the life of a one-year-old means a 100-percent increase in life’s experiences. One year added to the life of a 50-year-old means just 2 percent more. To the child, a year seems a long, long time. The older person, if busy and in good health, finds that the years seem to fly faster and faster.

Time​—When People Live Forever. However, there are joyous days ahead that will be far from calamitous. Lovers of righteousness, whose 'times are in Jehovah's hand,' may look forward to everlasting life in the realm of God's Kingdom... As millenniums pass, humans on this earth will no doubt come to appreciate more fully Jehovah's view of time: 'For a thousand years in Jehovah's eyes are but as yesterday when it is past.'​—Psalm 90:4.
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Red5
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« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2023, 11:22:10 AM »

(SaltyDawg writes)
"Go to church, pray for discernment.  Do not actively look for a sign, as that opens you to dark influences.  A sign / dream / vision will come when you least expect it, just be patient"

Yes, 'discernment', ... with prayer and supplication, ... signs; also, ... as you've said before SD, ... "God will provide you with the intel (discernment) when the time is right", ... by spiritual means, do not go looking for it off-hand, as (yes) you may very well open the door (portal) to dark influences.

#faith (mustard seed, Matthew 17:20)

I have said to others a few times over the past years, ... "I will have knowledge when the Lord wants me to have it, ... that 'Classified Folder' will be left on my desk (mind) by the Lord, when I am ready to see it, to understand it, to act properly upon it, and not before, so I am not going to ruminate/worry about "it" anymore" ...

Sometimes it is (was) hard to do, but I am getting better at "not worrying" about things anymore, ... my Grandmother used to call this worrying about things, and not waiting on the Lord, as "barrowing trouble".

Red5
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“We are so used to our own history, we do not see it as remarkable or out of the ordinary, whereas others might see it as horrendous. Further, we tend to minimize that which we feel shameful about.” {Quote} Patrick J. Carnes / author,
Pook075
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« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2023, 12:31:20 PM »

That's an amazing experience.  Many, many times we probably dismiss God and the things he is trying to show us.  I know this goes for me as I am a highly logical person who refuses to act out of emotion.  Sometimes it's possible that I may dismiss a providential thought thinking it is a selfish emotion that may be creeping up.  I'm trying to be more aware of those instances now. 

It's also interesting how that gave such a different perspective with the divorce.  In our Wednesday night bible study last night I was teaching on the last few chapters of Ezra.  After the Hebrews return from Babylon with the second part of the remnant they began to intermarry with the idolatrous people in the land.  Upon recognizing their sin, it was decided that they should put away those wives.  Apparently this was within God's will.  One might say, "well they were unbelieving wives".  While true the only teaching we have on unbelieving wives is that it's ok to let them go if THEY choose to leave.  In this instance though, they had no choice.  The men made the choice for them.  God doesn't make exceptions with sin, so this scenario has to fit into the overall principle as well. 

Apologies, I didn't mean to highjack your testimony with more theology but your perspective made me think about that particular passage

No worries, you didn't hijack anything since we're all here to learn from each other.

I do believe with my whole heart that my wife has broken the covenant and that I'm spiritually "free".  She also refuses to speak to me, so it's not like I'm making a choice to put her away.  She plans to file for divorce in August and if she follows through, I'll let her go.

But at the same time, we're told to pray, study the scripture, witness, and allow God to lead all aspects of our lives.  My wife hasn't returned because He hasn't guided her back.  I accept that since we all have free will.  BPD obviously complicates that as well.  For now though, I'm trying <and failing> to let God lead me while I wait this out.  It's truly in His hands.
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Pook075
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« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2023, 12:32:42 PM »

Keeping it short as possible...  

God has given me signs for both of the women I have been involved with pwBPD.

#1 - 1997-2000, uBPD/NPD/+/exgf - I received a sign in ~1982, a vivid dream, to run like hell when a certain set of circumstances were to happen well before I would eventually come across her, while I was still in high-school, and he gave me several more signs from 1997-2000 too, since I never really listen to well to him or others he was using to give me this.  When I finally did listen, I ran straight into...

#2 - 2001 - now, uBPD/OCPDw - I have received several signs to stay, so I am staying and I am suffering - God has already used me countless times in selfless and incredible ways - he has a bigger purpose for me, I do not know what; however, I have faith, it will eventually come.  I've been wanting to leave for over a decade, and God has his own timeline for me.  

Right now he has used many people to help grow emotionally and spiritually from sources I would have never considered including another self-aware borderline person among others from all of the world's Abrahamic religions who have the same God - Christianity, Muslim, & Jewish all of whom share holy writings that can be found in the Old Testament.  All humans are God's children.

Go to church, pray for discernment.  Do not actively look for a sign, as that opens you to dark influences.  A sign / dream / vision will come when you least expect it, just be patient.

In the mean time, take care with self-care.

P.S.  In the meantime, I wouldn't mind a PM of your story.

Thanks for the advice Salty, I've had a few vivid dreams as well since separating and my wife was particularly cruel in them.  Not sure where that comes from though and whether I should "trust them" or not.  It could be a sign to move on.

I'll PM you this evening.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2023, 12:39:53 PM by Pook075 » Logged
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