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Author Topic: Guidance on navigating VLC with dBPD mother  (Read 698 times)
PinkPanther

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« on: March 26, 2023, 03:47:35 PM »

Long story short, I have been NC/VVLC with my dpwBPD for the past 10 months.

After having my second child, a chain of events happened that prompted me to forego contact with her for my sanity.

My mother is a pretty high functioning BPD. She doesn't threaten self-harm, she is a community favorite, etc etc. She uses alot of guilt and manipulation and sadly it took me over 40 years to really understand and admit to myself that what she does is not healthy.

Anyway, in light of my limiting contact with her she has sent flying monkeys and finds many ways to try to manipulate and guilt me into contact. Her main stance now is "I respect your space but I want to see my grandchildren". She was obsessed with my second child from the moment they were born, but neglected me both while I was pregnant and postpartum.

She has in the past several months enlisted the assistance of my in law to side with her and convince me to break VVLC. I have spoken with them and explained as much as I could in a reasonable fashion, but she insists on essentially telling them how I am keeping her from her grandchildren so of course, I am the bad guy. I am not moving fast enough for her, even though I am communicated with her recently via email about this entire thing taking time.

My in law is telling me to move quickly and forget and forgive. When I don't give my mom her way immediately, communication ceases and she goes and whines to my in law. I am tired. I honestly don't want anything else to do with her, but I am attempting to build a very low contact relationship where she can occasionally see the grandchildren with supervision.

I really just don't know what to do and am exhausted. The emails I sent were straight and to the point, letting her know that I would like for her to see the children but it is going to take time because we are not in a good space where she is respectful. I occasionally send her photos of the grands. The narrative is that "you don't know what will happen tomorrow" so I should just give in and accept her "apology" and let her have her way.

I am not in a space to see her and really communicate with her verbally and when I find myself working to that space of coming together, she throws a tantrum and throws me under the bus with my in law. This is all so frustrating and I really just want to throw in the towel.
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2023, 08:52:35 PM »

It's quite sad, but typically, mothers with BPD will not agree to our terms, and they would rather forfeit their relationship with the grandkids than agree to our terms, because the thing they care more about than anything, or anyone (including their grandchildren) is not being controlled by other people's boundaries. 

As for your in-law, drawing a hard boundary with this person may be necessary. You can thank them for their concern, but then  inform politely them that you've got this and that going forward the subject of your mother is off limits. Sounds harsh, but you have to be very straightforward with these do-gooder types. They don't actually care about your mother anyway and they are just using the opportunity to feel morally superior to you. It's best to just feel pity for people like this. 
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2023, 08:58:54 PM »

Who is is in-law related to by blood?
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PinkPanther

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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2023, 10:00:08 PM »

It's quite sad, but typically, mothers with BPD will not agree to our terms, and they would rather forfeit their relationship with the grandkids than agree to our terms, because the thing they care more about than anything, or anyone (including their grandchildren) is not being controlled by other people's boundaries.  

As for your in-law, drawing a hard boundary with this person may be necessary. You can thank them for their concern, but then  inform politely them that you've got this and that going forward the subject of your mother is off limits. Sounds harsh, but you have to be very straightforward with these do-gooder types. They don't actually care about your mother anyway and they are just using the opportunity to feel morally superior to you. It's best to just feel pity for people like this.  

Thanks for your response.
Yes, I understand that this is not about me and not even my children. It's all about control. My mom is control queen. She is treating this like it's a war. NC has been for me. Countless life challenges have occurred in my household the past few years and my mom's tantrums are really just tiresome, of course there is no middle ground so I withdrew that energy and placed it where it needs to be, on me and my children.

My in law is definitely non caring...they are as a cool as a cucumber and otherwise ignore everything and tell me to do the same. My mom has really gotten in their head under the story of me " keeping her away from her grand children " the kicker is that his conversations are never any concern about me, the children or how it got to this point. It's only how I need a mother and how important the grandchildren are to her. My spouse has already told them to stay out of it but they won't listen. I have told them same and they won't listen so they are blocked now, too. The conversation is too focused on me forgetting about my mom acting silly and just letting her do what she wants cause she is my mother.
 
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PinkPanther

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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2023, 10:00:36 PM »

Who is is in-law related to by blood?

Hi, it's my husband's parent.
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2023, 04:59:57 AM »

I could have written parts of your post. I have had to have boundaries with my BPD mother which creates an issue for her because she wants to be seen as a loving grandmother. So the only explanation for this on her part is that I'm "keeping her from her grandchildren".

She did enlist her family to this point of view, but eventually they saw her behaviors and realized things were not as she presented them. I didn't try to present my point of view to them at first because, then they'd have to believe one of us and I assumed it would be her. I think they had to see some of her dysfunctional behavior themselves to realize it.

We don't want to be in the position to choose between our children's and our emotional well being and doing what our BPD mothers want. We'd hope that our parents would want that for us too, but they see us ( and our children too ) as someone to meet their own emotional needs.

I also didn't leave my mother alone with my children. They are grown now and don't have much contact with her-they are mainly busy with their own lives. I did have supervised visits when they were younger. You can try that if you wish but whatever you choose, do it according to your own values and boundaries.
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PinkPanther

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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2023, 08:20:54 AM »

I could have written parts of your post. I have had to have boundaries with my BPD mother which creates an issue for her because she wants to be seen as a loving grandmother. So the only explanation for this on her part is that I'm "keeping her from her grandchildren".

She did enlist her family to this point of view, but eventually they saw her behaviors and realized things were not as she presented them. I didn't try to present my point of view to them at first because, then they'd have to believe one of us and I assumed it would be her. I think they had to see some of her dysfunctional behavior themselves to realize it.

We don't want to be in the position to choose between our children's and our emotional well being and doing what our BPD mothers want. We'd hope that our parents would want that for us too, but they see us ( and our children too ) as someone to meet their own emotional needs.

I also didn't leave my mother alone with my children. They are grown now and don't have much contact with her-they are mainly busy with their own lives. I did have supervised visits when they were younger. You can try that if you wish but whatever you choose, do it according to your own values and boundaries.

Thank you for your response.

I am holding fast to not pushing to see her until I am ready. There is no room for negotiation with that. I have negotiated by NC stance to open up the door to future supervised visitation. But I am in no rush.

Things have been extremely stressful in my nuclear family the past few years. Times where we need support instead of being the ones supporting others. Having my second child forced me to be honest about my mother because her behavior became so intense it caused me to break. She was no help and just wanted to play cool grandma with her friends. My eldest child has his own mind so she loses interest quickly in him. She is obsessed with my baby and I suppose she wants to make her BPD mark before she gets too old for her.

My father in law has been very disappointing but not surprising. He is a devout Christian yet extremely passive under the guise of forgiveness. Even he is putting pressure on me, and he is equally obsessed with the baby. I told him he has 3 other grandchildren and doesn't make this much of a stink to see them. My eldest child barely exists for him anymore either.

It sucks to not have support. But I would rather cut the infected arm than deal with a painful gaping wound.

I need to work on my communication with my mom. I email with her a couple of times a week but I am not going to keep repeating the same thing over and over.
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Methuen
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« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2023, 10:48:22 AM »

Is there a reason why you have to reply to every email?

PwBPD are generally high conflict.  When I was at the stage of implosian, I had to retreat and just take care of myself.  I also had the sense that maybe something I was doing was contributing to the conflict.

In my retreat I spent a lot of time learning about BPD, and communication tools to use when interacting with them, so as to avoid invalidating their feelings and actually triggering more of their bad behavior. 

Somewhere on this board it says “before it can get better, you have to stop making it worse”.

It sounds like you have retreated as well, since she is accusing you of not letting her see the grandchild.  This IS how they frame things - always blame and attack.  Then enlist flying monkeys - sounds like this is your in-law.  Not helpful…. I’m so sorry.

Do you feel connected to other family or close friends?  For me it helps to focus my time and energy on people who I appreciate and enjoy and feel good around.  I try to spend less time with my mind engaged on my uBPD mother’s goings-on. 

I don’t respond to every email or text any more.  I choose what to respond to.  They try to suck you into drama.  I just can’t do it anymore.

I would never ever state my boundary because that is just going to make it worse. 

I’m really sorry you are going through this at such a busy and demanding time with a new baby.  I don’t really know what to say or how to help.  I can’t remember if you see a counselor or therapist.  That can be very helpful. 

This community is a great place to find support.  Take care of yourself so that you can really enjoy your children. 

She probably discarded the older children because they didn’t give her the attention she needs.  The baby on the other hand is a tabula rasa and she can smother it (metaphorically speaking) without getting pushback from an uninterested toddler or preschooler.  Just a speculation.

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PinkPanther

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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2023, 10:00:54 PM »

Is there a reason why you have to reply to every email?

PwBPD are generally high conflict.  When I was at the stage of implosian, I had to retreat and just take care of myself.  I also had the sense that maybe something I was doing was contributing to the conflict.

In my retreat I spent a lot of time learning about BPD, and communication tools to use when interacting with them, so as to avoid invalidating their feelings and actually triggering more of their bad behavior. 

Somewhere on this board it says “before it can get better, you have to stop making it worse”.

It sounds like you have retreated as well, since she is accusing you of not letting her see the grandchild.  This IS how they frame things - always blame and attack.  Then enlist flying monkeys - sounds like this is your in-law.  Not helpful…. I’m so sorry.

Do you feel connected to other family or close friends?  For me it helps to focus my time and energy on people who I appreciate and enjoy and feel good around.  I try to spend less time with my mind engaged on my uBPD mother’s goings-on. 

I don’t respond to every email or text any more.  I choose what to respond to.  They try to suck you into drama.  I just can’t do it anymore.

I would never ever state my boundary because that is just going to make it worse. 

I’m really sorry you are going through this at such a busy and demanding time with a new baby.  I don’t really know what to say or how to help.  I can’t remember if you see a counselor or therapist.  That can be very helpful. 

This community is a great place to find support.  Take care of yourself so that you can really enjoy your children. 

She probably discarded the older children because they didn’t give her the attention she needs.  The baby on the other hand is a tabula rasa and she can smother it (metaphorically speaking) without getting pushback from an uninterested toddler or preschooler.  Just a speculation.



Thank you, your response is insightful as well.

I don't reply to every email. Her emails have recently picked up though, I suppose she has something personal going on in her life that she feels like she needs the emotional crutch of grandchildren for... I don't know. But her emails have become more intense and frequent with love bombing mixed with rushing me to allow her visitation.

I have done SET, BIFF etc. I took the past several months to research all of this. I validated how she felt and stated what I was going to do. I guess since she hasn't been around me in a long time she didn't take it seriously, she thought things were going to be like before I went NC.

Anyway, she has been applying pressure through my father in law cause he is very traditional and not contacting your mother is just not understandable for him. I have a generally good relationship with my father in law but I am not in a good place with him at the moment because he is pressuring me and I am not trying to switch one crazy for the other.

I am just tired of everyone at the moment. I don't have any close friends right now because I began evaluating my friendships at the same time I evaluated the relationship with my mother and they were all basically just mimicking the same thing.

All in all I am ok with myself. Even though I am going through some really tough things I am very very happy. I am in a good place until I see an email from my mom or someone brings her up. I can't deal with the pressure and the guilt cause I am not bending and really it is making me retreat more to pressure me. I told my mother that she is wasting her time with the guilt tripping cause I don't feel guilt. I blocked her for awhile and let her know I did it and will be in touch when I am able to. I am just really annoyed by this silly behavior and would like to move forward instead of backwards. It's insane to me that grown adults are being so infantile. I have actual children to manage and then grown people acting like children too! But I guess with a BPD individual that's always a work in progress.
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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2023, 11:34:07 PM »

Excerpt
I am just really annoyed by this silly behavior and would like to move forward instead of backwards. It's insane to me that grown adults are being so infantile. I have actual children to manage and then grown people acting like children too! But I guess with a BPD individual that's always a work in progress.
You have a right to be annoyed.  Their behavior is usually beyond the pale. I am sorry to say that I do not believe they can change unless they have awareness.  My mother has zero awareness.
Excerpt
But I guess with a BPD individual that's always a work in progress.
Not gonna happen unless they have awareness.  Without that, you are beating your head against a brick wall.  She doesn't have the capacity to change.  

It’s us that has to change how we do things, and how we respond or don’t respond.

 
Excerpt
I don't know. But her emails have become more intense and frequent with love bombing mixed with rushing me to allow her visitation.
I believe this is a symptom of them (BPD) trying to use us to fill up their emotional bucket.  I slow things down when this happens.  I don't want to be used as her emotional fill up station.  So I don't reply. It is better if she goes elsewhere (to friends) for her emotional supply (rather than me).


« Last Edit: March 29, 2023, 08:12:07 AM by Methuen » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2023, 10:34:46 AM »

I’ve been on the same path as you for the last couple of years and have finally got to the point that my mother’s emails do not trigger me. In addition, she seems to have finally accepted that I am not willing to revert to the status quo, and because of this she hasn’t tried to contact me since our brief video chat on Christmas Day, (which left me with a two week emotional hangover) although it’s entirely possible that this is just a strategic move on her part and she’s giving me the silent-treatment now. But I am enjoying the silence!

My goal has been to begin seeing and treating her as I would a neighbor, or perhaps a distant relative, and I think going forward I will be limiting contact to sending cards for Mother’s Day, her birthday and Christmas, even if I never hear a peep out of her again — which is a real possibility since her own mother cut her off, and history tends to repeat itself…

What has been incredibly helpful to me in getting to this point has been reading books by family systems therapists. Jerry Wise’s videos on YouTube have also been immensely helpful, and he has a good list of recommended reading on his website.
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PinkPanther

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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2023, 11:06:02 AM »

You have a right to be annoyed.  Their behavior is usually beyond the pale. I am sorry to say that I do not believe they can change unless they have awareness.  My mother has zero awareness. Not gonna happen unless they have awareness.  Without that, you are beating your head against a brick wall.  She doesn't have the capacity to change.  

It’s us that has to change how we do things, and how we respond or don’t respond.

  I believe this is a symptom of them (BPD) trying to use us to fill up their emotional bucket.  I slow things down when this happens.  I don't want to be used as her emotional fill up station.  So I don't reply. It is better if she goes elsewhere (to friends) for her emotional supply (rather than me).




You are right in these observations.
My mom is in therapy, has been for years. She has gained insight in many ways but unfortunately, when it comes to major life situations they all bring out the worse in her and of course that has a trickle down effect. This time was esp. sensitive due to my own personal life, my tolerance is non existent for her right now. Her self awareness wanes and waxes but when it comes to her wanting to control something all bets are off, so that's the nature of this beast. So instead of me loosening my boundaries when things seem better I guess I have to continue to work on creating that firm space knowing she is not going to change and just sticking to my guns. 

I tell you one thing though, this recent chain of events hurt me more than anything she has ever done so its pretty difficult for me to go back to how things were. I don't believe a loving mother would do the things she has done so that's where it gets sort of confusing and hurtful. I know my having my own children has brought a great deal of acceptance cause I can't imagine not being there for my children no matter whats going on. It's alot to unload and reflect on but it definitely takes a great deal of radical acceptance to deal with.

I was going to stick to NC for the rest of my life and I was comfortable with that. My eldest child is a catalyst for me to keep at least a small amount of contact for now as he has an on relationship with her and he does miss her. I have been pretty honest with him in a age appropriate manner and he seems to understand a little. I do want my mom to at least witness the children grow up from a healthy distance but I am coming to terms that she is going to make that difficult at times.
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PinkPanther

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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2023, 11:15:12 AM »

I’ve been on the same path as you for the last couple of years and have finally got to the point that my mother’s emails do not trigger me. In addition, she seems to have finally accepted that I am not willing to revert to the status quo, and because of this she hasn’t tried to contact me since our brief video chat on Christmas Day, (which left me with a two week emotional hangover) although it’s entirely possible that this is just a strategic move on her part and she’s giving me the silent-treatment now. But I am enjoying the silence!

My goal has been to begin seeing and treating her as I would a neighbor, or perhaps a distant relative, and I think going forward I will be limiting contact to sending cards for Mother’s Day, her birthday and Christmas, even if I never hear a peep out of her again — which is a real possibility since her own mother cut her off, and history tends to repeat itself…

What has been incredibly helpful to me in getting to this point has been reading books by family systems therapists. Jerry Wise’s videos on YouTube have also been immensely helpful, and he has a good list of recommended reading on his website.

The silence is golden! If they only understood, haha.

That's a good way to view it, as a distant relative. I never thought of it that way. I think of my mom as a child and it frustrates me, I think that is why I have a hard time communicating with her without finding myself irritated. I want to be in a place where I am light hearted with my parent so I don't get caught in the drama. It's been hard to be that way with all of the FOGging.

I actually miss my mom when she is fun and silly. But being an adult means having hard conversations and making difficult choices and that's where her BPD is the worse. I think I came to the realization long time ago that she can't support me how I need, even before she was diagnosed. I am ok with that. What I am not ok with is trying to bully me into doing stuff through other people and comparing me to others. I told my mom I have been a wonderful daughter to her, and she knows it so I have nothing to feel obligated to. I have played my role beyond it's call of duty. The rest of my life is for myself and my husband and children.

Your suggestions about sending cards on holidays is good. I no longer wish to spend holidays with my mom. If things get tolerable I don't mind treating her to dinner for birthdays but anything else, no thanks.

I hope you find that zen space that works for you with your parent.
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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2023, 04:47:25 PM »

That’s great that your mom has that other side to her. It sounds like maybe you’d be able to pull off a “tea-party” relationship with her. Basically, it’s a superficial relationship where you have completely let go of any desire for a mother-daughter relationship, and talk about the weather, movies, books, etc. You would avoid emotionally laden topics, like sharing any challenges you are having in your life or any personal information, or trying to connect with her emotionally in any way.

I would try that if my mother lived locally, but it’s hard to spend 8 hours on a plane, and then only to meet up with her for dinner.  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2023, 07:17:35 AM »

The decision to go LC with my BPD mother began with a "how could a loving mother do that" situation as well. Now, the LC is more the realization that the mother-daughter relationship was more wishful imagination and people pleasing on my part. I wanted this kind of relationship with my parents and made efforts to have it seem that way. If I didn't, there isn't much, if any, "motherly" behavior  from my BPD mother.

For me, LC and living at a distance from her is a boundary that helps me to feel emotionally safer even if I can understand that it's her mental illness that affects her relationships.
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2023, 02:35:17 PM »

The decision to go LC with my BPD mother began with a "how could a loving mother do that" situation as well. Now, the LC is more the realization that the mother-daughter relationship was more wishful imagination and people pleasing on my part. I wanted this kind of relationship with my parents and made efforts to have it seem that way. If I didn't, there isn't much, if any, "motherly" behavior  from my BPD mother.

For me, LC and living at a distance from her is a boundary that helps me to feel emotionally safer even if I can understand that it's her mental illness that affects her relationships.

Living away from my parent def. helps. It was even better when I lived in another country Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). I can see life clearly now. I don't want to return to that hazy space of being enmeshed with my mom.
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2023, 06:24:39 PM »

So instead of me loosening my boundaries when things seem better I guess I have to continue to work on creating that firm space knowing she is not going to change and just sticking to my guns.

I tell you one thing though, this recent chain of events hurt me more than anything she has ever done so its pretty difficult for me to go back to how things were. I don't believe a loving mother would do the things she has done so that's where it gets sort of confusing and hurtful. I know my having my own children has brought a great deal of acceptance cause I can't imagine not being there for my children no matter whats going on. It's alot to unload and reflect on but it definitely takes a great deal of radical acceptance to deal with.
This.  All of it.

Your line about (not) loosening your boundaries when things seem better, resonated with me.  I think a lot of us here have fallen into that push-pull trap.  And I think it happens because we haven't accepted the mother we have, and we instead keep hoping for the mother we want - which is the part that keeps pulling us back.

I now have a "tea party" relationship with my mom.  She's 87.  If there was a queen of "waif's", it would be my mom.  She has aged into that because it works for her.  For me LC is still once a week in person - but usually quick, and 95% of the time with someone else present. If it's a small family gathering over a birthday and involves 2+ hours, it takes me days or more to recover.  The part about a loving mother not doing the things that are so confusing and hurtful resonated too.  When they do and say those things, that's their disease at work, but the problem is those things don't get resolved because they don't have the capacity to reflect and apologize, or problem solve, or resolve conflicts, or have a genuine open discussion.  And all those hurts and dysfunction is cumulative for us, until we can't take it any more.

I believe they don't have the capacity to know genuine love.  The love they know, either comes with strings attached, or equates to money, or is measured only by how much we do for them.  It's not genuine, or empathetic, or self-less, or deep.

Like you said, you can't imagine not being there for your children.  But somehow our mothers weren't even aware that they weren't/aren't there for us.  It was always about them.

The tea party relationship is safe for us and them.  For some people, not even the tea party relationship is safe.

And that can be really hard to accept.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2023, 06:47:55 PM by Methuen » Logged
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