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Author Topic: The forging of The Path  (Read 6536 times)
OKrunch
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« on: April 17, 2023, 01:01:14 PM »

Since my original post is still locked, and I am trying to have a completely new outlook on things I figured I'd just start a new thread.



I have been in my new apartment for a week, and it definitely helps. I still find myself waking up angry pretty often. It now takes less time to regulate that mood. This is the longest stretch of no contact we have had since October.

It really goes to show how effective some of the emotional programming they can do, even if it is subconscious, can be. Every day that goes by without contact makes it harder and harder to not reach out. I think about it less often throughout the day, but when I do the desire to reach out is more and more intense.

I am legitimately waiting to see what she does next, I'm waiting for the temp check. I know it's coming, it might be in a week and it might be in a year, and I know I just need to let sleeping dogs lie.



I have been very conflicted on the topic of blocking her. On the one hand I do not want to  project the image that I am bothered or upset by anything, so I don't want to block her.

I also struggle with what result blocking her might actually have, will it trigger a fear of Abandonment in her and cause the temp check to be sooner? Or will it solidify her opinion that she made the right choice and keep her away for longer?
 I'd be lying if I said I didn't want her to reach out. Part of me wants her to reach out because I miss her, the other part of me wants her to reach out because I feel like it would be cathartic to learn that I had at least some of my power regained. I know it sounds manipulative to say so, but having some leverage in the situation would help me feel a lot better about being able to make my own choice and take my own path.



Lastly, the last time we spoke, about 3 weeks ago now. There was brief mention of things that she still has of mine at the house. Most of these things I don't care about, but there is one item of sentimental value that I would like to have back. However I do not want to reach out, I do not want to ask her if I can have them. I swear to God she keeps little items so she always has a reason to reach out. She did that a lot during our previous breakup, although she admittedly had already started those behaviors this far into that breakup, and she has not done so so far.
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OKrunch
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2023, 03:19:26 PM »

My therapist seems to be of the mind that a recycle or "temp check" is unlikely, but she also said "I dont know her or her habits very well."

I mentioned my ex wife is the Non-recycling "Salt the earth behind her" type.
And that EXBPD has a pretty solid history of recycles.
With me, her daughters father, and a few others.


Which camp do your ex's fit into ? "Earth Salter" or "Recycler" ?
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OKrunch
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« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2023, 03:27:55 PM »

After what was probably far too much consideration, I have decided to finally go and block all of her contact methods.

Ive blocked before, only to unblock it.

Ive left it open hoping for her to reach out.
Im closing that door. THe false hope is hurting me
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cranmango
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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2023, 03:31:33 PM »

That sounds like a very reasonable decision. Remember that blocking her is a way to protect yourself from further damage. In  an earlier post, I noticed you speculating what effect blocking might have on her—that’s backwards. Blocking is for you, not her.

One day at a time.
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OKrunch
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2023, 03:35:01 PM »

That sounds like a very reasonable decision. Remember that blocking her is a way to protect yourself from further damage. In  an earlier post, I noticed you speculating what effect blocking might have on her—that’s backwards. Blocking is for you, not her.

One day at a time.

that would make sense if she was making any attempts at contact.
I obviously wanted to know what effect it might have, but I am aware that the blocking would have been for me, and is.

It makes me want to look at stuff. Search social media.
I found out she has like 5 snapchat accounts. they just keep popping up.

I WANT her to reach out, never gonna lie about that.
IDK, im still afraid if I do block, she will want to reach out, found ive blocked her, and not actually reach out.

this is so damn conflicting and confusing.
The song lyric i posted a while back is so on point.

"I hate you so, but love you more, IM SO ELASTIC"
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SinisterComplex
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2023, 04:05:10 PM »

That sounds like a very reasonable decision. Remember that blocking her is a way to protect yourself from further damage. In  an earlier post, I noticed you speculating what effect blocking might have on her—that’s backwards. Blocking is for you, not her.

One day at a time.

I will echo cranmango here, but go one step further and expound upon it...

Blocking isn't just for you, but setting boundaries is for you. This is where many people mess up the idea of boundaries...they put up boundaries with the intention it is for others and that is where they fail. Boundaries are for YOU. So go at this idea about the blocking that it is a boundary for you to help you heal and grow.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-
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OKrunch
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2023, 04:32:55 PM »

I will echo cranmango here, but go one step further and expound upon it...

Blocking isn't just for you, but setting boundaries is for you. This is where many people mess up the idea of boundaries...they put up boundaries with the intention it is for others and that is where they fail. Boundaries are for YOU. So go at this idea about the blocking that it is a boundary for you to help you heal and grow.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

I fully agree with this sentiment. I keep finding out more and more deceptive things she did. I know Ill never be able to trust her again, but there is still part of me that is terriefied to never speak to her again, or never see my dogs or her daughter again. Its damn terrifying.
I know its whats best for me in the long run, but right now, its a very hard descision.
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2023, 07:37:03 PM »

Blunt talk here, mano-a-mano...

Is that more terrifying? Or the fact that she punched you and you put her into a headlock? One or possibly both of you could have been arrested. We've seen this again and again over the years... past violence is a predictor for future violence. We've also seen members arrested or have RO's issued even towards the person who didn't initiate. A former moderator had a TRO issued against him even though he already has his own against his stbxw against whom he had evidence of no reciprocation on his part, recordings and everything.

We've also seen partners who initiated TROs violate them and the target get into trouble by engaging. These things can be serious, life-changing events.
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OKrunch
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« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2023, 08:19:11 PM »

Blunt talk here, mano-a-mano...

Is that more terrifying? Or the fact that she punched you and you put her into a headlock? One or possibly both of you could have been arrested. We've seen this again and again over the years... past violence is a predictor for future violence. We've also seen members arrested or have RO's issued even towards the person who didn't initiate. A former moderator had a TRO issued against him even though he already has his own against his stbxw against whom he had evidence of no reciprocation on his part, recordings and everything.

We've also seen partners who initiated TROs violate them and the target get into trouble by engaging. These things can be serious, life-changing events.

Firstly, i absloutely see your point.
Second, please let me quote my previous post.
"The headlock thing she mentions was a day she punched me, and i held her down in defense of myself.
It always gets brough up, and her punching me is rarely mentioned."

I held her down, she used the word Headlock. Not me. I just wanted to clarify that. I have not and would not put hands on anyone, excepting TRUE self defense. I didn't put her in a headlock, I wasn't in any danger.

Lastly,
I will Copy/Paste the last message to my therapist earlier today, after a very illuminating conversation with a friend.

"I think im in the middle of a breakthrough moment right now. I put snapchat on my phone to talk to another girl, EXBPD has, like, at least 4 accounts that have popped up so far. The amount of shady stuff is mounting to un-ignorable levels. 1.) She got a new phone number last spring, and i assumed she shut off the old one. NOPE. 2.) Her old Instagram and Facebook accounts are still active, despite having made "new" ones years ago when she got sober. 3.) mutliple snapchat accounts. 4.) I can recall several instances where she told me "Go ahead and look at my phone anytime, you know the password" - (Because any shady stuff would be on the other phone) 5.) The several guys i KNOW ABOUT and all the triangulation. Since June of 2019 she has gone from DAUGHTERS dad, to dating, to me, to MAN I KNOW, then REBOUND #1, then Me again, then who knows since (2 im aware of).
 6.) she cut my son away like an old scab. HE IS 8. SHe did this TWICE. even after we both told both the kids it WOULDNT happen again. 7.) The gaslighting. The antagonistic behaviors. IM SWEARWORDS DONE. It hurts, I miss Jekyll, I really truly do, and I love her, but Ive finally realized that Hyde is the true persona. It hurts, It sucks, hell, its a SWEARWORDS tragedy. Jekyll is really incredible, but shes just an onion skin. what a SWEARWORDS waste, and a shame. I feel like all the amazing memories i have arent even real anymore."

Im sure the pendulum will try to swing back to sympathy again, but it feels like the rose colored lenses are really coming off.

Im not even angry right now. Resolute would be a better word. Mornful, but resolute.
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« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2023, 08:47:15 PM »


Im sure the pendulum will try to swing back to sympathy again, but it feels like the rose colored lenses are really coming off.

Im not even angry right now. Resolute would be a better word. Mornful, but resolute.


This is a good place to be in the detaching process which is still very fresh for you.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Not to belabor the point, but never underestimate the power someone can assert to make major trouble for you.

My ex got a TRO against her husband's twin brother because she was scared of him. Her H was desperate, maybe too much, to bring him into the family. She locked herself in her car and called the cops crying. BIL ran off. H was likely foolish and in heightened emotions when the cops showed up. He ended up cuffed and a little beaten and charged with resisting arrest. I heard later that those charges were probably dropped.

In a later incident, they got in a row, yelling. He threw change at her. When he wouldn't stop arguing and leave (the shared apartment, he wasn't legally obligated to), she punched him hard enough to bruise her hand. She showed me two days later.   "I should call the cops!" He said, but then left. He should have. They did all that in front of our kids, but that's another story...

It's all too easy for these situations to spiral out of control.
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OKrunch
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2023, 11:12:44 AM »

there were a few leftover belongings of mine at her house. Honestly, not even worth the hassle of getting them.

The dogs is one of the hardest things, but that will fade.
I had an amazing chat with my son this morning. He really helped me put things into perspective.

"I lament the many times that thou impuned my honor,
and maintained that it was ever something I had done.
No more shall I live that way,
Uncertain what thy words beray"
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2023, 02:14:38 PM »

trying to fight against the ego.

I never got closure, twice. I want her to miss me, want me, realize she threw away her best option.
I want her to reach out, and athough i know the actual realtionship is dead, I still want that closure. that validation.
Like, its been really sticking in my head that she said "I have wanted to leave you since July" back in October.
We had an amazing summer, and despite a few fights, we were happily planning our wedding, and our future toether well into the end of August.
Then the anniversary of her grandmothers death was approaching, and arrived on Sept 20th and it was like she just DIED and became this monsterous fight machine for most of september. Everything was my fault. My son became too much of a burden. She layed into triangulating me with other guys even before the breakup. Talking about the guy at her Jujitsu classes, flirting with my friend. All to cause fights and justify her need to leave.
I realize now how many of the fights were manufactured, and simply to support her narrative that our relationship was toxic.
It wasnt, until she made it so.
Like a werewolf, or someone with two personalities.

Yet again, it boils down to Jekyll and Hyde.
Always.
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OKrunch
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2023, 01:38:23 PM »

Yet another weekend approaches where I will be alone, in my new place, shunted away, while she lives her life, with her new boo, and out dogs and house. Enjoy the weather, ya treacherous liar.
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cranmango
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2023, 08:23:22 AM »

OKrunch—still here, still reading, still rooting for you. The hurt and resentment you describe all makes sense. If your ex is anything like mine, “living her life” means causing a lot of hurt and chaos while running from her actual problems. I still miss my ex deeply. I think a part of me will always care for her. But I’m also grateful for the quiet moments these days.

How is the new place so far?
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OKrunch
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2023, 10:17:11 AM »

OKrunch—still here, still reading, still rooting for you. The hurt and resentment you describe all makes sense. If your ex is anything like mine, “living her life” means causing a lot of hurt and chaos while running from her actual problems. I still miss my ex deeply. I think a part of me will always care for her. But I’m also grateful for the quiet moments these days.

How is the new place so far?

New place is good, I think a lot of the jealousy and frustration ive been feeling is due to how long its been since we've been in touch. I think part of me expected her to continue to orbit around, and her not doing so is abnormal, and it makes me nervous that its well and truly dead.

I am trying to enjoy the new things in my new area. Exploring the local parks and forest walks, might go to the climbing gym soon, as there is one nearby.

We always had the same custody schedule with our ex's, so when I dont have my son, i know she doesnt have her daughter.

Knowing im stuck alone on the same weekend she is off pretending we never existed together still stings.

At 7 months, and this being the 2nd major discard in our relationship, I truly fee llike a sucker sometimes still.
"normal" people dont stay attached this long, especially after having been treated how I was, on several occasions.
It makes having a positive self image difficult.
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2023, 10:44:29 AM »

Local parks, forest walks, climbing gym—all good things. Keep exploring your new area. And be open to meeting others, too. Making new acquaintances and friends. The ‘gaps’ you feel right now will fill in over time. It is slow and painful. But they will fill in.

I hear you about custody schedules. Same here. I know that on my ‘off nights,’ my ex is also not parenting. That would have been our date night. And now she’s with someone new. Those thoughts hurt like hell the first few months. The pain has started to dull.

Your ex does not define you. That relationship does not define you. It is a piece of your history, but only a piece. A ‘chapter’ in a much longer story.

I know you know all this, but sometimes it helps to hear it again. And it helps me to type it, so I can remind myself, too!
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OKrunch
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« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2023, 09:59:37 AM »

Had a good weekend, and a good date night on Sat.

THe spidey senses are calming.
Im waking up angry less often.

Spring is here and life is good.
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« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2023, 11:43:41 AM »

It's nice to read that you had a good weekend Smiling (click to insert in post)
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OKrunch
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« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2023, 03:38:23 PM »

Spidey senses back in full swing today.
We havent talked in weeks, and my mood has been more stable.
However today has been rife with "Gut feelings", waves of anger and some resurgent jealousy.

I have been keeping busy, and the thoughts still intrude.

It really feels like she is having a crappy day and I am feeling it in my guts.
My therpaist said "you need to be vigilant, I believe she will find some pretext to check in and see if you are still attached after some time of silence. If she hasn't reached out to touch base by the end of June ill be surprised."

So, theres that...

« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 03:48:29 PM by OKrunch » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2023, 09:00:32 AM »

Excerpt
Spidey senses back in full swing today.
We havent talked in weeks, and my mood has been more stable.
However today has been rife with "Gut feelings", waves of anger and some resurgent jealousy.

I have been keeping busy, and the thoughts still intrude.


I think it's normal for feelings to come in waves as you describe. This too shall pass. Be kind to yourself, your thoughts aren't you. Let them go, and hang in there.

Excerpt
My therpaist said "you need to be vigilant, I believe she will find some pretext to check in and see if you are still attached after some time of silence. If she hasn't reached out to touch base by the end of June ill be surprised."

So, theres that...

How has blocking her made you feel? Where is your head at?
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« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2023, 09:17:50 AM »

Spidey senses back in full swing today.
We havent talked in weeks, and my mood has been more stable.
However today has been rife with "Gut feelings", waves of anger and some resurgent jealousy.

Hey buddy, glad you made a new thread...was wondering how the new apartment was for you.

I remember those feelings all too well- I'd string together 3-4 good days in a row and then <wham>, I couldn't stop thinking about her the next day.  Why?  How?  I don't know, that's just the way love works I guess.  It's not normal how these relationships end.

Look, there's no rules for this.  If you want to reach out, then reach out.  If you want to block her, then block her.  Nobody gets to tell you the right or wrong way to do things, because none of us know for sure.  Just don't beat yourself up over it.  She's sick and you're worried to the point where you are as well; you have to let that stuff go and accept that she's gone.  As hard as it may be to hear, you are much better off without her.
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OKrunch
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« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2023, 12:19:49 PM »

I think it's normal for feelings to come in waves as you describe. This too shall pass. Be kind to yourself, your thoughts aren't you. Let them go, and hang in there.

How has blocking her made you feel? Where is your head at?

It has prevented me from looking at social media, and that has helped me be less frequently in my head.

I still can't shake this feeling that "it isnt done"
I know how i felt 7 months into my divorce, and It was nothing remotley so attached as this. Something is not letting go somewhere.
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« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2023, 12:23:11 PM »

Hey buddy, glad you made a new thread...was wondering how the new apartment was for you.

I remember those feelings all too well- I'd string together 3-4 good days in a row and then <wham>, I couldn't stop thinking about her the next day.  Why?  How?  I don't know, that's just the way love works I guess.  It's not normal how these relationships end.

Look, there's no rules for this.  If you want to reach out, then reach out.  If you want to block her, then block her.  Nobody gets to tell you the right or wrong way to do things, because none of us know for sure.  Just don't beat yourself up over it.  She's sick and you're worried to the point where you are as well; you have to let that stuff go and accept that she's gone.  As hard as it may be to hear, you are much better off without her.
Last time I did reach out, which was weeks ago, she expressly asked me to give her space and not reach out, so I haven't.
I do feel more at peace.
A woman I have been hanging out with occasionally whipped out some red flags last night, and we had a bit of an argument.
I immediately put up boundaries, and was polite but firm about it.
Even just something resembling similar arguments EXBPD and I had, like, immediately triggered me.
I told her I was not comfortable with the line of conversation, and left.
While it felt good to recognize a dnager zone, and set a healthy boundary, the fact that it felt like "arguing with her again" and how much it triggered my emotional response was very telling.
I will be taking a break from dates, and being much more circumspect with the choosing of them in the future.
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« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2023, 04:12:39 PM »

Last time I did reach out, which was weeks ago, she expressly asked me to give her space and not reach out, so I haven't.
I do feel more at peace.
A woman I have been hanging out with occasionally whipped out some red flags last night, and we had a bit of an argument.
I immediately put up boundaries, and was polite but firm about it.
Even just something resembling similar arguments EXBPD and I had, like, immediately triggered me.
I told her I was not comfortable with the line of conversation, and left.
While it felt good to recognize a dnager zone, and set a healthy boundary, the fact that it felt like "arguing with her again" and how much it triggered my emotional response was very telling.
I will be taking a break from dates, and being much more circumspect with the choosing of them in the future.


LOL, I sort of had the opposite (yet similar) experience.  I started meeting women online and met someone I really liked, we laughed nonstop while talking and everything was going good.  But after about a week and a half, she asked me to marry her and she had that look in her eyes...she was completely smitten.  I didn't know this gal at all and she didn't know me, so I sort of saw all the warning signs we talk about here.  I had no idea what to do because she was obviously had some type of mental illness.

So I tried to gently distance myself and it quickly escalated to a stalking sort of thing.  I blocked her on the app, but within 24 hours she found my phone number and my home address.  We've never met in person because she's not local, and she now insists that we're getting married even though I have said over and over again that I don't even know her.  I've also blocked her and she keeps finding ways to reach out.  It's almost comical and I can't wait for her to meet a new guy to obsess over.

The sad part is that I really like her...I just didn't fall in love the first week we met, LOL.  Thank God I never met her in person.
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« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2023, 05:53:34 PM »

LOL, I sort of had the opposite (yet similar) experience.  I started meeting women online and met someone I really liked, we laughed nonstop while talking and everything was going good.  But after about a week and a half, she asked me to marry her and she had that look in her eyes...she was completely smitten.  I didn't know this gal at all and she didn't know me, so I sort of saw all the warning signs we talk about here.  I had no idea what to do because she was obviously had some type of mental illness.

So I tried to gently distance myself and it quickly escalated to a stalking sort of thing.  I blocked her on the app, but within 24 hours she found my phone number and my home address.  We've never met in person because she's not local, and she now insists that we're getting married even though I have said over and over again that I don't even know her.  I've also blocked her and she keeps finding ways to reach out.  It's almost comical and I can't wait for her to meet a new guy to obsess over.

The sad part is that I really like her...I just didn't fall in love the first week we met, LOL.  Thank God I never met her in person.

POOK! Holy Hell buddy!
What a story, yea, thats alarming.
The girl I saw did not really react well to me setting boundaries, and I am so all set with that.
Glad we are both keeping our priorities straight my guy.
The road is hard, but were going.
and that road is getting easier.
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« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2023, 09:34:03 AM »

wow wow wow wow.
the spidey senses are going bananas today.
Another day I am in a great mood, and living my life, and the intuition is SCREAMING at me.

Powering through it.
Not my circus.
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« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2023, 03:55:21 PM »

REALLY missing the woman I love today.
REALLY hating Hyde today.

I miss my dogs.
I dont like dating.

SHE is my ONE.
Low point this afternoon.
I wish i had a time machine.
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« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2023, 07:01:51 PM »

REALLY missing the woman I love today.
REALLY hating Hyde today.

I miss my dogs.
I dont like dating.

SHE is my ONE.
Low point this afternoon.
I wish i had a time machine.

So in order for you to move forward this thought of she is your ONE needs work. This particular thought process alone is very toxic and damaging and will keep you running in circles and stunting your growth. I would obviously disagree with your thought she was your ONE. How is that possible with how you were treated? How I see it is that you are settling on that notion and afraid to move on and you also feel you do not deserve better. My friend that is categorically false.

I understand the low points and how you feel, but please do some work to get rid of that trouble thought process and open your mind up to better opportunities and better people. If you do not work on getting rid of this thought process you are going to ruin any potential to find your ONE because you will keep comparing this woman to all and no offense...take the blinders off. If she was all that and a bag of chips you wouldn't be here and you wouldn't be in pain and misery.

Please be kind to you and take care of yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-
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« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2023, 01:58:52 PM »

Lots off odd intuition feelings lately, not the Normal "Twisties" ive described before.
More of a feeling of built up preassure.

My therapist said she thinks the cracks in EX's "Happy life" are cracking beneath the surface.

Enough about that, Weather is improving. New apartment is great.
I have a social engangement tonight that should prove to be...exciting.

So, other than dark moments alone, mostly first in the morning and late at night, i am doing pretty well.
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« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2023, 03:53:07 PM »

Lots off odd intuition feelings lately, not the Normal "Twisties" ive described before.
More of a feeling of built up preassure.

My therapist said she thinks the cracks in EX's "Happy life" are cracking beneath the surface.

Enough about that, Weather is improving. New apartment is great.
I have a social engangement tonight that should prove to be...exciting.

So, other than dark moments alone, mostly first in the morning and late at night, i am doing pretty well.

Good stuff- especially the "exciting social engagement".  Have fun buddy, I'm still rooting for you.

Oh, an update on my stalker!  Last week, she kept asking, "Do you want to marry me or not?"  And I kept saying, "NOO...I've known you for like 2 weeks!"  Finally it clicked, I guess, and she broke up with me (not that we were together, but I let her have the win).  Five days pass and I don't hear from her.  Phew.  But today, she says I'm her best friend in the world and suddenly starts texting me nude photos of herself.

The moral of the story here, when you're dealing with crazy it's never over until it's over.   Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2023, 08:58:33 AM »

Good stuff- especially the "exciting social engagement".  Have fun buddy, I'm still rooting for you.

Oh, an update on my stalker!  Last week, she kept asking, "Do you want to marry me or not?"  And I kept saying, "NOO...I've known you for like 2 weeks!"  Finally it clicked, I guess, and she broke up with me (not that we were together, but I let her have the win).  Five days pass and I don't hear from her.  Phew.  But today, she says I'm her best friend in the world and suddenly starts texting me nude photos of herself.

The moral of the story here, when you're dealing with crazy it's never over until it's over.   Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post)

Man, what a trip! You aren't kidding about crazy, Pook. Holy Hell.
My social engagement went quite well! it was a phenomonal night.

Tuesdays are always heavy with "gut feelings" and today is no different.
However rather than trying to figure it out, today I am just trying to let it come and go, ignore it and go on with my day.

Im done having my spirit and contentment shackled to the long dead corpse of a relationship.
A necromancer, I am NOT.
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« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2023, 12:02:55 PM »

 Welcome new member (click to insert in post) Glad to hear you're doing well!
Excerpt
So, other than dark moments alone, mostly first in the morning and late at night, i am doing pretty well.

I can relate to finding these particular moments more difficult. I think they are the last parts to heal, if that makes sense.

What I found helpful is implementing routines with activities that make me feel good, when I have time. In the morning I don't linger too much in bed (because that is when I tend to ruminate), make coffee, and journal outdoors. At night I stretch and practice breathwork with the intention of letting go. I started putting aside ´rumination time´ throughout the day to sit down and write out all the thoughts that are bothering me. So far, just knowing I can think about the intrusive thoughts later has been enough... when I sit down I don't have anything to write because it isn't bothering me anymore!
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« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2023, 02:54:40 PM »

So in order for you to move forward this thought of she is your ONE needs work. This particular thought process alone is very toxic and damaging and will keep you running in circles and stunting your growth. I would obviously disagree with your thought she was your ONE. How is that possible with how you were treated? How I see it is that you are settling on that notion and afraid to move on and you also feel you do not deserve better. My friend that is categorically false.

I understand the low points and how you feel, but please do some work to get rid of that trouble thought process and open your mind up to better opportunities and better people. If you do not work on getting rid of this thought process you are going to ruin any potential to find your ONE because you will keep comparing this woman to all and no offense...take the blinders off. If she was all that and a bag of chips you wouldn't be here and you wouldn't be in pain and misery.

Please be kind to you and take care of yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-


SC, when i first read this, it pissed me off.
My first thought was "Im so sick of people telling me who to love, or to stop loving someone, if it were that easy...blah blah blah"

Upon some further reflection, i see this message for what it is, you trying to get me to respect myself.
Do I miss Jekyll, Hell yes. Do I miss our home, dogs, the kids together, and all the good times (which in my opinion still far outweighs the amount of bad times, but I dont have the magical black and white thinking)

However missing those things isnt enough. As i said in Tinas thread, She would need to very clearly choose me, which she very clearly, has done the opposite of.
I may love and miss her, and sometimes thats all we get.
a RELATIONSHIP is a two way street, and I was pulling the cart up the wrong one way, by myself, while she emotionally cheated, and treated me and my son like lepers.

The shoe will eventually swap feet, just like I know Ill be happy with my life, because Im going to ensure it.
Im sad to say i dont think she will ever be fully happy.
But her happiness is not my job. I was quite content to do all i could to make her happy, and that wasnt enough to fill the void in her.
No dog, or boyfriend, or job or house ever will.

Keep fighting Valkyrie, your battle isn't over. You still must face yourself.
Mine is though. I'm done fighting.
I hear a glass of Mead calling my name from Valhalla.
Iv'e earned my Warriors Rest.
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« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2023, 08:47:16 PM »

OKrunch and tina--just wanted to say thank you for sharing your perspectives. It is helpful to read, and gives me hope for my own recovery.
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« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2023, 11:05:17 AM »

I agree, thanks for sharing buddy. It's okay to get pissed off as well, to reject others opinions and not see them at face value.  But sometimes, that anger leads to the biggest breakthrough.  

If I could summarize what everyone has told you throughout this journey in one sentence, it would be this- "Love yourself first."  

Everything good in your life comes from you being balanced, stable, and happy.  The love for your son is critical, but if dad isn't happy then he can't love the kid 100% like he should.  The same with your ex, you want to reconcile but you're waiting on her to change and hoping for the best...and it's knocking you off your own path to happiness.  She's not the most important thing in your life- you are.  Then comes your son.  Then comes the new dog that you really need to get in that new apartment (hint, hint, LOL).

Just be you brother, and put your own happiness first.  It will spill out into everything and everyone around you, and that's when the good stuff happens in life.  Love yourself 1st!
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« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2023, 12:12:55 PM »

I agree, thanks for sharing buddy. It's okay to get pissed off as well, to reject others opinions and not see them at face value.  But sometimes, that anger leads to the biggest breakthrough.  
It took some time of digesting that to see it for what it was. My anger was originally because it was conuter to what I want to happen, but after some reflection, its what needs to happen, and is happening.
If I could summarize what everyone has told you throughout this journey in one sentence, it would be this- "Love yourself first."   
As a "White Knight" and people pleaser, this comes difficultly to me. Even now with well over a month of NC, i still worry about her daughter everyday. I know my son is doing well. We had another good talk last night. Last i heard, her daughter was still struggling (and I know  she probably is as well, she always seems to find a reason to be) So its hard not to think of them and their needs, but she wanted to do everything alone, so she can.
Everything good in your life comes from you being balanced, stable, and happy.  The love for your son is critical, but if dad isn't happy then he can't love the kid 100% like he should.  The same with your ex, you want to reconcile but you're waiting on her to change and hoping for the best...and it's knocking you off your own path to happiness.  She's not the most important thing in your life- you are.  Then comes your son.  Then comes the new dog that you really need to get in that new apartment (hint, hint, LOL).
Originally, it was said that dogs arent allowed at my apartment, but i think with an established history of being a good tennant, i can make some wiggle room there eventually.
I cling to the good memories like a burr to wool.
Not a day goes by that I do not fondly remeber our trips, our home life, etc.
The dichotemy of this is not lost on me, as due to black and white thinking, Im certain she can only remeber the bad things, including those opinions and facts about be she fabricated out of sheer desperation to justify her narritive to push me away again.
Just be you brother, and put your own happiness first.  It will spill out into everything and everyone around you, and that's when the good stuff happens in life.  Love yourself 1st!
I am trying to live well. Establishing new habits and hobbies. Next is getting myself into a schedule of going to the climbing gym, saving money, and getting myself firmly established.

I vascilate between "She will never reach out again" Vs. "It's only a matter of time before she does"
I also vascilate between "I want her to" and "i hope she doesn't"

I think the desire for her to reach out is mostly my own ego at this point. Being spurnned is not good for ones self image.
To be spurnned multiple times, and in such a traumatizing manner has been quite shattering to my self esteem.
That said, spending time with others, and realizing how much value and attractiveness I do in fact still have has been like fresh aloe on a major sunburn.

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« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2023, 06:48:32 PM »

SC, when i first read this, it pissed me off.
My first thought was "Im so sick of people telling me who to love, or to stop loving someone, if it were that easy...blah blah blah"

Upon some further reflection, i see this message for what it is, you trying to get me to respect myself.
Do I miss Jekyll, Hell yes. Do I miss our home, dogs, the kids together, and all the good times (which in my opinion still far outweighs the amount of bad times, but I dont have the magical black and white thinking)

However missing those things isnt enough. As i said in Tinas thread, She would need to very clearly choose me, which she very clearly, has done the opposite of.
I may love and miss her, and sometimes thats all we get.
a RELATIONSHIP is a two way street, and I was pulling the cart up the wrong one way, by myself, while she emotionally cheated, and treated me and my son like lepers.

The shoe will eventually swap feet, just like I know Ill be happy with my life, because Im going to ensure it.
Im sad to say i dont think she will ever be fully happy.
But her happiness is not my job. I was quite content to do all i could to make her happy, and that wasnt enough to fill the void in her.
No dog, or boyfriend, or job or house ever will.

Keep fighting Valkyrie, your battle isn't over. You still must face yourself.
Mine is though. I'm done fighting.
I hear a glass of Mead calling my name from Valhalla.
Iv'e earned my Warriors Rest.

Atta boy. Glad you took the time to reflect. Your initial reaction is not surprising and you would have been off base, but you took a step back and realized what I was actually conveying to you. This is good. Its too easy to get wrapped up in that initial rush of emotions and then miss the point entirely. I'm happy you caught on...albeit I did kind of smack ya with some tough love.

I'm not always going to coddle people...not my strong suit. What I will do is tell you what you need to hear, maybe not what you want to hear.

As you put together for yourself...my intent was to get you to respect yourself and to empower you. Honestly it had more to do with you, and not her really at all. Who you love is up to you and no one can tell you what to do. And btw my friend...none of this stuff is easy.

Please keep this at the forefront of your mind...Want Better, Expect Better, Do Better!

Keep your head up and keep pushing forward. You are going to come out of this a better person and a stronger person.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-
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« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2023, 01:08:58 PM »

the day to day is getting easier, and the temptations to reach out are less frequent.
That said, when they do occur, they are STRONG.

Its been over a month of NC now, it it just makes me more and more curious how a reach out would be taken.
Im still not going to do it, but it is on my mind a lot today.

The thought of her out having a good time with someone, and pretending like nothing happened and life is a ok is just a lot to process sometimes.

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« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2023, 01:44:29 PM »

the day to day is getting easier, and the temptations to reach out are less frequent.
That said, when they do occur, they are STRONG.

Its been over a month of NC now, it it just makes me more and more curious how a reach out would be taken.
Im still not going to do it, but it is on my mind a lot today.

The thought of her out having a good time with someone, and pretending like nothing happened and life is a ok is just a lot to process sometimes.

What helped me earlier on was knowing that whoever she was flirting with, whatever she was doing, it would eventually blow up in her face because she can't have a stable, mature relationship.  She'll run at the first sign of trouble and leave destruction in her path.  Why would I want to get back in that path when I'm smiling all the time, enjoying life, and actually healing from her toxin?

I understand that you still love her...and I still love my wife as well.  I actually wrote her a long letter a few days ago after she called me in crisis (only to berate me in the process of asking for emotional help).  I do want my wife back, but only the stable loving version that doesn't exist anymore.

It's funny, I was watching the old Star Wars right now and it's a good comparison- everyone loves young Anakin, but they hate Darth Vader.  And we're all wondering, why can't the funny, super cool kid just come back again?  But he can't, he's just eaten up with pain and grief to the point where his soul became evil.  I feel like that's my wife when it comes to us- she's freakin' evil with her bitterness, hate, and warped perspective. 

I do not EVER want to be with that person ever again, and I do not have the power to help her change and heal.  She's gotta embrace the force on her own, LOL.
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« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2023, 02:09:56 AM »

It is currently 3:00 a.m. And I just got home.

The ghost of the past can still do some haunting.
 I had plans tomorrow to meet up with the  woman I have been spending time with. Technically we still have plans, but she called me and asked me to come over around 8:00 this evening, went over and had a good time and the intention was to sleep there so that we could go to the event we were going to tomorrow more logistically.  We had a nice night together he's very reluctant to have people sleep over. So I took this as a sign of continued built Trust.

 After some intimate time together, we were both trying to go to sleep.  Of course this is when a bunch of memories and emotions decided to come rolling in. I had almost fallen asleep and then I just couldn't. I couldn't get to sleep I couldn't get comfortable. My brain would not shut up.
 Began having an anxiety attack, eventually explaining to her that I couldn't sleep and was very uncomfortable. I told her It had nothing to do with her,  but I repeatedly apologized for it to which she sarcastically told me to cut the crap and stop over explaining and over apologizing. She was very understanding and told me to go get some sleep in my own bed.



Every Instinct they have tells me that I just blew it with her. Because that's how I'm trained to think. I am trained to blame myself I am trained to constantly be apologizing. I think she even picked up on that which is why she told me no hard feelings don't worry about it. After I drove home I texted her and let her know I was home and she said good messed up beating yourself up and get some sleep.

 I'm quite irritated right now. I was having a phenomenal night, this woman had expressly told me that she didn't generally invite people to stay over. This was showing a sign of trust from her and I blew it. I know that everything is fine with her and I, she explained that much.

 Now we come to the root of the problem.
 I felt like I was cheating. It felt dishonest to be sleeping in another woman's bed. We have been broken up for almost 8 months at this point. We haven't spoken in well over in a month, but yet I still feel dishonest and uncomfortable trying to sleep in another woman's bed. To the point where it gives me anxiety and I need to get up and leave. Things like this are what continue to make me feel like it's not over and that the story is not done. I never experienced anything remotely like this in the aftermath of my divorce. I feel like I'm never going to have peace, that it's never going to go away. Here i am actually doing all the things I know I need to in order to move on, yet I am still having anxiety attacks at times like this.
It is quite frustrating.
My mind is anything but sharp right now, its super late, im just purging the adreneline of anxiety out of my system.
Im going to meditate and get some actual sleep.
I will come back when I wake and reflect on this with a clear head.
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« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2023, 08:13:37 AM »

OKrunch—I hear you, my friend. I had a very similar experience recently. You did nothing wrong. The panicky feeling in the middle of the night sounds like a trauma response. Did your ex often accuse you of cheating? Mine sure did, all the time. And loads of other criticism, blaming, etc. Staying in that toxic dynamic makes us question ourselves and feel like we are in “trouble” if we do something our partner doesn’t like. That’s not the dynamic of a healthy adult relationship. It’s about control. The ghost of your ex is trying to control you now, because our brains have been trained to think that way.

But it won’t always feel that way. You are coping, you are growing. As hard as last night was, it won’t always be so hard. Time and distance from your ex  will take the edge off those intrusive memories.

You didn’t ruin anything. You were honest about your feelings, and she was supportive. That’s healthy!

For myself, I’ve decided to stay single for the time being. I need the thoughts of my ex to fade a bit more before I can fully open my heart to something new. Going on a few dates helped me realize I’m not quite ready for that. But it was also a huge boost of confidence that my ex isn’t nearly as special as I thought. So I’m getting there, one somewhat messy step at a time!
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« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2023, 01:05:41 PM »

It is currently 3:00 a.m. And I just got home.

The ghost of the past can still do some haunting.
 I had plans tomorrow to meet up with the  woman I have been spending time with. Technically we still have plans, but she called me and asked me to come over around 8:00 this evening, went over and had a good time and the intention was to sleep there so that we could go to the event we were going to tomorrow more logistically.  We had a nice night together he's very reluctant to have people sleep over. So I took this as a sign of continued built Trust.

 After some intimate time together, we were both trying to go to sleep.  Of course this is when a bunch of memories and emotions decided to come rolling in. I had almost fallen asleep and then I just couldn't. I couldn't get to sleep I couldn't get comfortable. My brain would not shut up.
 Began having an anxiety attack, eventually explaining to her that I couldn't sleep and was very uncomfortable. I told her It had nothing to do with her,  but I repeatedly apologized for it to which she sarcastically told me to cut the crap and stop over explaining and over apologizing. She was very understanding and told me to go get some sleep in my own bed.



Every Instinct they have tells me that I just blew it with her. Because that's how I'm trained to think. I am trained to blame myself I am trained to constantly be apologizing. I think she even picked up on that which is why she told me no hard feelings don't worry about it. After I drove home I texted her and let her know I was home and she said good messed up beating yourself up and get some sleep.

 I'm quite irritated right now. I was having a phenomenal night, this woman had expressly told me that she didn't generally invite people to stay over. This was showing a sign of trust from her and I blew it. I know that everything is fine with her and I, she explained that much.

 Now we come to the root of the problem.
 I felt like I was cheating. It felt dishonest to be sleeping in another woman's bed. We have been broken up for almost 8 months at this point. We haven't spoken in well over in a month, but yet I still feel dishonest and uncomfortable trying to sleep in another woman's bed. To the point where it gives me anxiety and I need to get up and leave. Things like this are what continue to make me feel like it's not over and that the story is not done. I never experienced anything remotely like this in the aftermath of my divorce. I feel like I'm never going to have peace, that it's never going to go away. Here i am actually doing all the things I know I need to in order to move on, yet I am still having anxiety attacks at times like this.
It is quite frustrating.
My mind is anything but sharp right now, its super late, im just purging the adreneline of anxiety out of my system.
Im going to meditate and get some actual sleep.
I will come back when I wake and reflect on this with a clear head.

Hey buddy.  You know my journey so you know that I faced something similar recently in a long distance relationship.  It didn't feel right and I broke it off quickly, not because of anxiety or regret, but just because that's not who I am or who I want to be.  You call it the universe, I call it faith in God, and there's no reason to split hairs here.  We both felt like it wasn't time to move on yet and that's perfectly fine.

First off, your new friend- you didn't blow anything.  The key to a healthy relationship is being open and honest.  Intimacy isn't about sex and making out, it's about showing someone we're close to our soul, our heart.  You did that and she responded appropriately, so don't start second guessing yourself over whether you blew it or not.  You didn't.  She understood and that tells me she's a pretty good gal already.

Now, about your ex.  The feelings bubbled up and made you feel guilt, shame, and self doubt.  You're a spiritual guy, what's the universe telling you by providing those emotions?  I know the answer and you know the answer, but you have to admit the answer to yourself and accept it.  

I'm in the exact same situation- my mind is telling me to move on, which I've done quite well.  My heart and soul are telling me to wait this out, which is very hard, painful, and confusing.  But recently I've discovered that I can do both at the same time, to live my life and be genuinely happy, while also being there for my ex however I can.  That means letting her live her life as well and letting your universe (my God) guide both our paths, wherever that may lead.  It's perfectly okay to do both at the same time, once you accept that your ex has free will and she's gotta make her own mistakes and learn from them, grow from them.

I'm still here for you buddy and I hop on here every day to check on you.  You're in my prayers and I know you've got this.
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« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2023, 05:02:50 PM »

today is the anniversary of her grandfathers death.
I have had a sad, angry mood permiate most of my day.
Last night was bothering me but things are all set with the Woman im seeing, so were good there.

guts and intuition have been bananas strong today.

I want this all gone.
How does one love someone they activley dont want to love?
Its like the opposite problem as a BPD, who can go from In to Out to In love at the drop of a hat.

I just want my life to be normal again. Is that so much to ask?
Everyday has the added weight of "will she temp check today? What could I have done differently? Is she happy? Whats up with the new guy?"
and the damn near CONSTANT reliving of happy memories in my head, which only hurt to think of. I activley try to think of other things when this happens, and its gotten worse of late.
I. Just. Want. It. All. To. Stop.

I wish i could forget she existed.
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« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2023, 08:38:50 AM »

Mood is shifiting, as NC goes on, my thoughts are less about what Ive lost, what I am missing and what someone else is "enjoying" in my absence, and much more about how unfair, fabricated and one sided a lot of the relationship was.
I am angry, but its a resolved, justified anger.

Was i perfect through the entire relationship? Obviously not. Was I a good partner and fiance, step parent and lover? YES
YES I WAS.
Furthermore, I have not had the issues with my temper at all since being on my own.
I havent yelled or gotten super angry at anything, but her, in the last 7 months.

I have realized how many of my own poor relationship behaviors were reactionary or defensive in nature, and are all but gone since she left me.

For some reason, during a meditation the other day, the Date of May 18th popped into my head, curious to see if anything happens on that date.

Guts have been very active of late. becoming almost daily.
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« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2023, 11:59:03 AM »

Excerpt
Furthermore, I have not had the issues with my temper at all since being on my own.
I havent yelled or gotten super angry at anything, but her, in the last 7 months.

I have realized how many of my own poor relationship behaviors were reactionary or defensive in nature, and are all but gone since she left me.

This is a powerful insight. If a relationship with someone is bringing out a side of you that isn't brought out in any other context, it's important to take a step back and evaluate why that was the case.

I personally felt very insecure, had gigantic mood swings, and would act on compulsions throughout the relationship with my ex.  While I have learned to better deal with those reactive behaviours now that I have had distance, I also realized that they were triggered by how he was behaving as well. I would feel insecure because he was inconsistent. I would have gigantic moodswings because he changed his mind at the drop of a hat. It's almost as if I was mirroring his behaviours. I didn't have a strong enough sense of self to recognize this was happening.

From what I gather, you and I are on the same wavelength in the sense that we would consider a friendly relationship with them some day. I think it's important for both of us to consider this aspect you brought up.
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« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2023, 02:47:27 PM »

This is a powerful insight. If a relationship with someone is bringing out a side of you that isn't brought out in any other context, it's important to take a step back and evaluate why that was the case.

I personally felt very insecure, had gigantic mood swings, and would act on compulsions throughout the relationship with my ex.  While I have learned to better deal with those reactive behaviours now that I have had distance, I also realized that they were triggered by how he was behaving as well. I would feel insecure because he was inconsistent. I would have gigantic moodswings because he changed his mind at the drop of a hat. It's almost as if I was mirroring his behaviours. I didn't have a strong enough sense of self to recognize this was happening.

From what I gather, you and I are on the same wavelength in the sense that we would consider a friendly relationship with them some day. I think it's important for both of us to consider this aspect you brought up.

I completely agree as I've realized that in myself as well.  So much of my stress is gone and now that I'm not walking on eggshells and fearing a simple statement to become an all-out war, I am a lot more at peace with myself.  It's almost like I know who I am now, the real me?  That may not make a lot of sense but for 24 years, I was holding so much back to avoid conflict and explosive behaviors.

Yesterday, I may have had the best day since our separation nine months ago.  Got up at 5:30 and was at a local park by 6 to walk, pray, and watch the sunrise.  McDonald's breakfast at 7, then got my oil changed and stopped by to see a friend that's struggling, was able to be a mentor and help him work thru a few things.  Then I went to the chiropractor, found out my uncle was sick as I was leaving and went to buy ingredients to make him lasagna.  Had it ready by noon and headed to their home, and it dawned on me that I was super busy & productive all morning long.  Can't remember the last time I finished 10+ things before lunchtime and it was a great feeling. 

Mostly though, it was just a great feeling being myself, being there for others, and having absolutely no judgement for doing what I wanted to do on a day off.
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« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2023, 03:19:36 PM »

Its amazing to look back and see some of the bad personality / relationship traits WE Showed in the relationship, were potentially adaptive, and only present in response to incoming negative personality traits.
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« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2023, 08:43:58 AM »

Excerpt
So much of my stress is gone and now that I'm not walking on eggshells and fearing a simple statement to become an all-out war, I am a lot more at peace with myself.  

I sometimes feel anxious when expressing myself to others. It's a mixture of social anxiety, and the fear of being misunderstood, undoubtedly reinforced by years of setting out to say one thing only for it to be understood as something wildly different.

What I've come to realize lately is that, even if I don't select the exact right wording for what I want to say, my friends will understand the intent behind it, and if they don't, they'll ask questions. It's a feeling of...safety. Safety to be myself. I didn't realize this was missing in my old relationship.

Excerpt
Yesterday, I may have had the best day since our separation nine months ago.  Got up at 5:30 and was at a local park by 6 to walk, pray, and watch the sunrise.  McDonald's breakfast at 7, then got my oil changed and stopped by to see a friend that's struggling, was able to be a mentor and help him work thru a few things.  Then I went to the chiropractor, found out my uncle was sick as I was leaving and went to buy ingredients to make him lasagna.  Had it ready by noon and headed to their home, and it dawned on me that I was super busy & productive all morning long.  Can't remember the last time I finished 10+ things before lunchtime and it was a great feeling.

That sounds like a wonderful day Smiling (click to insert in post) . What resonates with me especially is the altruism involved: helping a struggling friend, making lasagna for your uncle. I have discovered that doing things for people around me, especially cooking, brings me so much joy. It's like I didn't have the energy to do it before, when I had tunnel vision focused on my ex. I can now be more present, and truly listen. People have apologized for taking up my time, but I feel like I now have infinite patience, because I am able to maintain healthy boundaries. When I feel tired, I identify I feel that way and withdraw, so that when I am present with someone it is because I truly want to be there.

Excerpt
Its amazing to look back and see some of the bad personality / relationship traits WE Showed in the relationship, were potentially adaptive, and only present in response to incoming negative personality traits.

If you had asked me to describe myself a few months ago, I would have said flawed. I constantly felt like I had to work on something. My ex would tell me I needed to see a therapist, and once directly said something along the lines of ´look at you grovel´. And I believed him, because wasn't I behaving irrationaly? Wasn't I groveling for scraps of his attention? I should have been asking myself, why am I letting someone say those things to me? Would I say this, in that awful tone, to someone I care about? His words and behaviours truly were more a reflection of him. If that is still how he expresses himself, I count myself lucky to no longer have him in my life.

This transformation in my thinking helps me integrate this old relationship in my life's story. It had to end for me to learn and grow.
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« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2023, 11:53:02 AM »

Well, we just broke No Contact.
I kept seeing her "Chat Icon" pop up in my messenger, which it shouldn't becuase ive been blocked.
I hit the little "thumbs up" button to see if the message would go through.
About 20min later she replied with "?"
I sent a message back explaining that i was just curious about why the chat icon was showing up, as i though i was blocked.
She called me on the phone.
I answered, and she went on to explain that "She doesnt have me blocked, and that I have been playing the block / unblock game" - I told her I had blocked her once, and I never felt ok with it, so i had undone it ages ago and left it alone since.
She then went on to tell me that "things have been really bad", and Her Daughter was in the hospital over the issues shes been having with her. She then said the birthday gift i sent her had her daughter all upset, because she "fears me coming back". this still feels like defensive exatturation. Im not saying these things arent happening, but they arent my fault and she continues to frame them that way.
She then said "I know my dad sent you an email, and I know youre going to prentend you didnt read it"
I never got such an email, and I went and looked for one after. Nothing.
She said all of this in a very frustrated angry tone.
She is still acting like I am not leaving her alone, and I have been.
When she mentioned things have been hard, I told her " I know Ive felt it" and she told me "Dont tell me that! it was probably just your damn ex wife you were feeling!"

I didnt linger on the phone, i let her say her piece and then I got off the phone. Still, very odd.
Why call? that couldv'e easily been a text, and I dont buy half of it.
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« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2023, 01:37:47 PM »

Well, we just broke No Contact.
I kept seeing her "Chat Icon" pop up in my messenger, which it shouldn't becuase ive been blocked.
I hit the little "thumbs up" button to see if the message would go through.
About 20min later she replied with "?"
I sent a message back explaining that i was just curious about why the chat icon was showing up, as i though i was blocked.
She called me on the phone.
I answered, and she went on to explain that "She doesnt have me blocked, and that I have been playing the block / unblock game" - I told her I had blocked her once, and I never felt ok with it, so i had undone it ages ago and left it alone since.
She then went on to tell me that "things have been really bad", and Her Daughter was in the hospital over the issues shes been having with her. She then said the birthday gift i sent her had her daughter all upset, because she "fears me coming back". this still feels like defensive exatturation. Im not saying these things arent happening, but they arent my fault and she continues to frame them that way.
She then said "I know my dad sent you an email, and I know youre going to prentend you didnt read it"
I never got such an email, and I went and looked for one after. Nothing.
She said all of this in a very frustrated angry tone.
She is still acting like I am not leaving her alone, and I have been.
When she mentioned things have been hard, I told her " I know Ive felt it" and she told me "Dont tell me that! it was probably just your damn ex wife you were feeling!"

I didnt linger on the phone, i let her say her piece and then I got off the phone. Still, very odd.
Why call? that couldv'e easily been a text, and I dont buy half of it.

Hey buddy.  I'm glad you had a conversation, even if it was brief and not particularly helpful for you.  But let me try to read between the lines a little bit.

You blocked her, she blocked you, and before long you guys forgot who had who blocked last.  With minimal contact, she reached out.

Next, she opens up about things not being good.  You may be quick to dismiss that, but she did show a little vulnerability here and give a glimpse into her world.  Things aren't working out for her at the moment.  You didn't say how you responded though and that's a big piece here.  Did you show empathy?  Indifference?

Next, she brings up the gift that upset her daughter.  Who knows if this is true or not, but we've already heard the kid is not doing well so I think you have to take this at face value.  Her daughter is not okay and it's because of how the relationship deteriorated towards the end.  I'm not saying it was your fault here, but it takes two people to argue, to lash out.  My kids recently told me that they were traumatized from how my wife and I used to argue 15+ years ago...it doesn't matter who started it or who was right or wrong. 

Just accept that it could have had an unintentional fallout for the kid...you absolutely played a part in that.  Did you ask her for additional details on what's happening with the kid?  That would have been nice to validate her concerns and her emotions.

Next, the email from dad.  My advice?  Call her dad and say you never got an email.  My guess would be to tell you to stay away from that family, but at the same time it would give you an opportunity to get the closest possible thing to closure.  Call or email the dad!

For the final part, "you didn't 'feel' things were bad", that's classic BPD at work.  She thinks you don't care about her, so how could you possibly care about her or feel any sort of connection?  That's unfortunate, but it is what it is.  There's no way to talk past that until your ex accepts that her viewpoints could potentially be flawed.

To answer your question- why call.  Because she wanted to call, she wanted to rant, she wanted to pass blame to make herself feel better.  That's the narcissistic traits bubbling up and lashing out.  The other side to that though is that she didn't know what she'd say when she called, maybe she hoped for a decent conversation.  Maybe she hoped you moved to France.  Who knows what the motivations are when someone is dysregulated.
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« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2023, 03:11:50 PM »

Hey buddy.  I'm glad you had a conversation, even if it was brief and not particularly helpful for you.  But let me try to read between the lines a little bit.

You blocked her, she blocked you, and before long you guys forgot who had who blocked last.  With minimal contact, she reached out.

Next, she opens up about things not being good.  You may be quick to dismiss that, but she did show a little vulnerability here and give a glimpse into her world.  Things aren't working out for her at the moment.  You didn't say how you responded though and that's a big piece here.  Did you show empathy?  Indifference?
I told her I had been worried/thinking about her daughter, and that I was sorry to hear she was having difficulties. This is when I menationed being able to feel her bad days, and when she said it was likely just my ex wife.
I tried to show empathy, because I legit care about her daughter, but she cut me off mid sentence


Next, she brings up the gift that upset her daughter.  Who knows if this is true or not, but we've already heard the kid is not doing well so I think you have to take this at face value.  Her daughter is not okay and it's because of how the relationship deteriorated towards the end.  I'm not saying it was your fault here, but it takes two people to argue, to lash out.  My kids recently told me that they were traumatized from how my wife and I used to argue 15+ years ago...it doesn't matter who started it or who was right or wrong. 
I agree 1000% here. My son has said that he is more at peace, I do not want to cause her daughter ANY undue stress, i adorer that little lady. If she needs to blame me for the issues, in order to put her daughter first and focus on that, so be it.

Just accept that it could have had an unintentional fallout for the kid...you absolutely played a part in that.  Did you ask her for additional details on what's happening with the kid?  That would have been nice to validate her concerns and her emotions.
Again, I had tried to get some details and really inqure as to how her daughter was doing, but got cut off. She knows I care a lot about her daughter, and I think this is also why she has been a main topic the last two times we've talked. I think in her mind, I will push a boundary with her, but if its her daughter, she knows I would never do a thing to upset that, but I do believe that these things are happening with her daughter, just that her blame is unfairly allocated therein


Next, the email from dad.  My advice?  Call her dad and say you never got an email.  My guess would be to tell you to stay away from that family, but at the same time it would give you an opportunity to get the closest possible thing to closure.  Call or email the dad!
Her dad is notoriously cowardly and do nothing. this was a consistant major issue during her childhood. She was being mistreated by her mother, and dad was nowhere around and did nothing about it. Even during our reltationship she frequently complained that he was full of empty promises and was generally unreliable. My guess is that she was complaining to her father about me, likely around when the birthday gift i sent was, and he SAID he would email me, and never actually did.
or she just completley made that up. Either way, I almost never talked to her dad in the past (except for one time I had to reach out to him because she was struggling with mental health (suicidal idiations), and plainly wanted family support and I had to basically tell him "your daughter needs you, please call her" - AND HE DIDNT) So I wont be calling her dad or emailing him. Waste of time and energy.


For the final part, "you didn't 'feel' things were bad", that's classic BPD at work.  She thinks you don't care about her, so how could you possibly care about her or feel any sort of connection?  That's unfortunate, but it is what it is.  There's no way to talk past that until your ex accepts that her viewpoints could potentially be flawed.

To answer your question- why call.  Because she wanted to call, she wanted to rant, she wanted to pass blame to make herself feel better.  That's the narcissistic traits bubbling up and lashing out.  The other side to that though is that she didn't know what she'd say when she called, maybe she hoped for a decent conversation.  Maybe she hoped you moved to France.  Who knows what the motivations are when someone is dysregulated.
You hit the nail on the head, with the section i underlined. She was heated the whole time we were on the phone. She DOES have a lot going on right now, and I am a convenient person who is already painted black, so easy to plug blame into.


My biggest takeaway from this conversation is that it didnt emotionally floor me like it would have in the past.
I had done a salt cleansing meditation earlier in the day to, with the intention of cord cutting, and it was pretty moving.

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« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2023, 08:52:28 AM »

 OMFG Laugh out loud (click to insert in post), Yesterday was completley eventless. No Twisties (spidey sense) or anything. This morning they ramped up as I rolled into work, then SPIKED like madhouse in the last 20 min. She just texted me - I have NOT reached out since the event saturday. "Im sorry for reaching out Saturday after saying you shouldn't. Have you seen my national parks passport? Its not in my library, I can trade with you when i bring by some of your stuff. Im going through the shed soon" I have not replied. She just sent that like 15 min ago. YET again, I begin trying to prove to myself that my twisties are simply my anxiety, and she proves me wrong yet again.

Obviously the contact was more jarring to her than me...
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« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2023, 03:10:42 PM »

I didnt reply, and yet she sent several more messages throughout the day.

Very odd 180 in her behavior.
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« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2023, 03:19:09 PM »

I didnt reply, and yet she sent several more messages throughout the day.

Very odd 180 in her behavior.

Actually not odd 180 in the behavior at all. More predictable. You're not bowing to her demands and being a pushover rolling out the red carpet for her.

You're less available and she feels the disconnect so she has to re-engage to gauge her sense of control over you.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-
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« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2023, 03:44:25 PM »

Actually not odd 180 in the behavior at all. More predictable. You're not bowing to her demands and being a pushover rolling out the red carpet for her.

You're less available and she feels the disconnect so she has to re-engage to gauge her sense of control over you.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

I suppose that explains why something that couldve been accomplished in a single text (Or, that by her own admission, didnt need to be addressed at all, one of the messages said "If its inconveneint to look for it, don't go out of your way")  has turned into a phone call and several texts
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« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2023, 04:08:48 PM »

How are you feeling?
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« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2023, 04:20:40 PM »

Actually not odd 180 in the behavior at all. More predictable. You're not bowing to her demands and being a pushover rolling out the red carpet for her.

You're less available and she feels the disconnect so she has to re-engage to gauge her sense of control over you.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

I completely agree.  In her viewpoint, she still controls the relationship by saying "don't contact me."  But when she contacts you and you're not rolling out the red carpet, it makes her question if she's fully in control.  So she reaches out more.

The truth is she's not in control at all, not the way she thinks anyway.  But that's the push/pull dynamic and it's all centered around manipulation.  She probably doesn't even realize she's doing it, so don't try to read too deep past the surface level.
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« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2023, 09:00:04 AM »

I am feeling good. It was a good experience honestly. I had been dreading whenever contact happened, and it did, and it barely affected me.

Pook, I agree with what you said. Her response feels like a reflex action, and subconcious.
I am just continuing as though it didnt even happen.

I literally have options when it comes to dating right now, and Im not even really pursuing them. Ive got other stuff to worry about first.
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« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2023, 02:11:57 PM »

I am feeling good. It was a good experience honestly. I had been dreading whenever contact happened, and it did, and it barely affected me.

Pook, I agree with what you said. Her response feels like a reflex action, and subconcious.
I am just continuing as though it didnt even happen.

I literally have options when it comes to dating right now, and Im not even really pursuing them. Ive got other stuff to worry about first.

Providing another Atta Boy because well good job! It sounds to me like mentally you are adopting an abundancy mind set and coming from a place of power. This is good. Also...see now you are not weak. You are strong. Keep on keeping on my friend.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-
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« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2023, 02:58:55 PM »

Its definitley a step in the right direction.

Do i still want her to apologize, reach out, miss me, etc?
 Yea.

Do I care if she doesn't?
Not really anymore.
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« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2023, 03:01:51 PM »

My therapists input on the situation - " She was more than likely baiting you with the Niagara Falls comment. She was doing a temp check because your neutrality made her nervous. She probably hopes that you were just waiting for her to come back and that you would say all the things like how much you've missed her and how it's been awful since shes been gone. I'm sure it threw her right off."
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« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2023, 10:58:48 PM »

Its definitley a step in the right direction.

Do i still want her to apologize, reach out, miss me, etc?
 Yea.

Do I care if she doesn't?
Not really anymore.

This shows real growth. That is ultimately indifference. You would prefer for her to apologize, etc, but you will be happy regardless. It is a process, but you are progressing. In that sense if no one else says it...I am proud of you. However, you should also be proud of YOU.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-
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« Reply #62 on: May 17, 2023, 05:59:47 AM »

I fully agree and I'm proud of you as well.  You're on the right path in life and it's really nice to see.  Keep your head up buddy!
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« Reply #63 on: May 17, 2023, 08:48:55 AM »

Spidey sense went nuts at like 12:30am last night, which is super odd. that usually never happens late at night.

They have strongly persisted into today.
There is more coming down the pipes, but im not paying it any mind.
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« Reply #64 on: May 17, 2023, 03:27:28 PM »

Spidey sense went nuts at like 12:30am last night, which is super odd. that usually never happens late at night.

They have strongly persisted into today.
There is more coming down the pipes, but im not paying it any mind.

At this point, you know that you can handle it maturely and avoid escalation.  That's a good thing and it will eventually change her behaviors as well in future interactions.  So let the spidey sense scream away.

I get similar feelings sometimes; I'd describe them different because my wife will suddenly come into my mind and I'll get really sad, actually hurt.  But at the same time it doesn't feel like my hurt, it's like I'm hurting for her.  A few of those times I almost called her to ask, "Is everything okay?"  Then I'll dismiss it as just a random vibe/emotion that came out of nowhere.  It's happened a few times in the past when my kids were in trouble as well, something just feels off and I can't shake it.
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« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2023, 03:42:41 PM »

I will say, that her reaching out the other day has me paying way more attention to if she might again, checking my phone etc.
Gonna work on that.
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« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2023, 08:37:39 AM »

Im wondering if I should reply back and tell her I looked for the passport, and don't have it, or just ignore it and let her ask again if she actually cares.
She was angry when she called on Sat, and seemed to regret her venom, hense the apology the next morning. If I had to guess, she was already pissed about other things and felt embarresed about coming off as "lacking control".
Thoughts?
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Pook075
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« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2023, 11:59:55 AM »

Im wondering if I should reply back and tell her I looked for the passport, and don't have it, or just ignore it and let her ask again if she actually cares.
She was angry when she called on Sat, and seemed to regret her venom, hense the apology the next morning. If I had to guess, she was already pissed about other things and felt embarresed about coming off as "lacking control".
Thoughts?

Could we look at this from a different perspective for a moment?  Forget about her feelings, her venom, her instabilities, etc.  All that's on her and if you've moved on, that stuff doesn't matter.  You're choosing not to accept it, which is a healthy move.

So for just a moment here, forget about her feelings and what contacting her will do for her/to her.  What do you want to do?  If you want to reply about the passport, then reply.  If you don't want to, then don't.

All these rules we've talked out here dealing with BPD loved ones only applies if you're continuing to seek a healthy relationship.  In other words, if you've truly moved on then say whatever the heck you want to say that aligns with who you are as a person.  If she doesn't like it, that's her problem...not yours.

This section of the forums is about learning after walking away.  You've really made some strides the past month or two.  This is about you and your mental health, not about hers.  So focus on you- what do you want to do?  That's what matters here.
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« Reply #68 on: May 18, 2023, 05:00:21 PM »

Could we look at this from a different perspective for a moment?  Forget about her feelings, her venom, her instabilities, etc.  All that's on her and if you've moved on, that stuff doesn't matter.  You're choosing not to accept it, which is a healthy move.

So for just a moment here, forget about her feelings and what contacting her will do for her/to her.  What do you want to do?  If you want to reply about the passport, then reply.  If you don't want to, then don't.
I wasnt asking to confirm an vibe on her end, more so what would be best for my peace of mind. I do not like leaving a thing half finished.

All these rules we've talked out here dealing with BPD loved ones only applies if you're continuing to seek a healthy relationship.  In other words, if you've truly moved on then say whatever the heck you want to say that aligns with who you are as a person.  If she doesn't like it, that's her problem...not yours.
I agree, much in line with what i mention above


This section of the forums is about learning after walking away.  You've really made some strides the past month or two.  This is about you and your mental health, not about hers.  So focus on you- what do you want to do?  That's what matters here.
I want to put all the clerical BS to bed, that way there are ZERO reasons for either of us to reach out unless there is intent of actual conversation, sharing, etc.
Which is something I will not be doing. Any future conversation will need to be started by her, and depending on the topic, i May not answer.

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« Reply #69 on: May 18, 2023, 06:30:49 PM »

Good for you brother, I'm in the exact same position in my journey.  It's not my job to try to save someone that can't love me for me, so why focus any effort towards it?  I've accepted it and moved on.
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« Reply #70 on: May 19, 2023, 08:40:41 AM »

Well, she ended up texting me back, and then started talking about the dogs.
We had a bit of conversation last night, and she messaged me again this morning continuing the conversation.
I have not brough up anything of the past, or really anything about me or us.
I have not said I missed her, or anything of the sort.

She has started telling me a lot of "woe is me" type stuff, which is normal. Its all coated with a "But im doing ok, im getting by" type vibe.
She is telling me about the issues with her daughter, and mentioned that doing both the dogs has been hard.
I asked How she had been doing, she said shes been reading, gardening, and focusing on herself and her daughter.

Im surprisingly fine with whatever happens, its got my nerves up a bit to talk to her, but, its not making me freak out, and I don't have much invenstment in whatever way the conversation does or doesn't go.
I've reached a point of "whatever"
there are things id LIKE to happen, but Im fine if they dont.
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« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2023, 09:12:53 AM »

my guard is most assuredly up. Definitley feels like she is fishing for supportive statements, and I have responded in supportive ways, without offering any of my emotions, time or power. I am not letting this get my hopes up, convince me that she has changed, or make me shift how I have been thinking acting and feeling. The things she did to hurt me are still there, and I will not forget them.
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« Reply #72 on: May 19, 2023, 09:34:29 AM »

Well, she ended up texting me back, and then started talking about the dogs.
We had a bit of conversation last night, and she messaged me again this morning continuing the conversation.
I have not brough up anything of the past, or really anything about me or us.
I have not said I missed her, or anything of the sort.

She has started telling me a lot of "woe is me" type stuff, which is normal. Its all coated with a "But im doing ok, im getting by" type vibe.
She is telling me about the issues with her daughter, and mentioned that doing both the dogs has been hard.
I asked How she had been doing, she said shes been reading, gardening, and focusing on herself and her daughter.

Im surprisingly fine with whatever happens, its got my nerves up a bit to talk to her, but, its not making me freak out, and I don't have much invenstment in whatever way the conversation does or doesn't go.
I've reached a point of "whatever"
there are things id LIKE to happen, but Im fine if they dont.

Hey buddy, I am so stinkin' proud of you and the point you're reaching in your life.  I'll share a little advice I've picked up from my journey and I hope it helps.

First, a part of you still wants to love this woman.  But what is real love?  It's putting someone else before you, being there for them, and being patient as they work through things in their life.  You know she's hurting and confused, so you just being there for her without talking relationship is a massive step in the right direction.  Like you said, if it leads to love again that's great.  If it doesn't, then it's also great because you're supporting her when she needs support.  Only good can come from that as long as you're protecting your heart and not getting pulled back in to the unhealthy aspects of the relationship.

Second, the past is dead.  Nobody can change it and there's no sense in focusing on it.  Yes, I know she's hurt you...and you've hurt her.  It's unfortunate but the past is the past.  From your recent responses, it feels like you're well on your way to forgiving her and living in the present.  That's awesome and it's a very healthy place to be.  The past is dead but the future is wide open, so live in the present and let all that past pain go.

Third, talking about the dogs is huge!  You love the dogs and miss them.  Talking about her daughter is also huge- you love her daughter and miss her.  The fact that she's opening up to you about this stuff means that she still trusts you, still values your opinions.  That's awesome brother and it's letting you heal.  Just don't get sucked back in too quickly, take baby steps and just be there for her as a friend.

Again, I am so proud of you and your entire journey.  You've got this, my man, and I can't wait to see where you end up six months from now.  Maybe it's with her, maybe not, but you're going to be your authentic you and past all this pain and confusion.
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« Reply #73 on: May 19, 2023, 10:04:37 AM »

I’ll join Pook in highlighting your amazing progress. Your mindset and perspective is a concrete example of a balanced way of navigating such a situation. Thank you for sharing.

Excerpt
But what is real love?  It's putting someone else before you, being there for them, and being patient as they work through things in their life.

This touched me too.

Good vibes all around  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #74 on: May 19, 2023, 02:46:49 PM »

The conversation has continued, and is still about her, the garden there, the dogs, her daughter etc.
I am just listening, being kind, while still keeping myself at a safe distance.

Im not sure if this will continue, if she will ghost again, or what.
I am refraining from saying anything remotely romantic or flirty, and I will not ask her about any guy she is still dating, or anything like that. I have not asked about any of her other personals, like work, gym, volunteering, etc.
I am letting her set the tone of the conversation.

I am honestly surprised she has not asked me about where I moved, or if I am seeing someone. Maybe shes being careful, maybe she doesn't care.

She did mention "my" strawberry patch I had planted last year.

Im trying not to get any hope or excitmenet from this, but ill be honest.
It feels good.

I just know what is on the other side of the coin, and I am keeping myself VERY aware of that.
I will not have my heart shredded again.
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« Reply #75 on: May 19, 2023, 03:23:34 PM »

Im trying not to get any hope or excitmenet from this, but ill be honest.
It feels good.

That's awesome brother and I wanted to call out this one point you made- it feels good.  Who cares is she's dating someone else, or if you're dating someone else.  The other stuff doesn't matter at all at this point.  You're talking, you're connecting, and it feels good.  She keeps calling so it feels good to her as well.  All you're doing is figuring out how to be friends again.

That's enough for now, just enjoy it.  So proud of you!
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« Reply #76 on: May 19, 2023, 03:38:22 PM »

That's awesome brother and I wanted to call out this one point you made- it feels good.  Who cares is she's dating someone else, or if you're dating someone else.  The other stuff doesn't matter at all at this point.  You're talking, you're connecting, and it feels good.  She keeps calling so it feels good to her as well.  All you're doing is figuring out how to be friends again.

That's enough for now, just enjoy it.  So proud of you!

youre absolutely right, it still burns a tad to know i was "replaced" and that he is still around, but i've not been idle on the dating scene either, and its been 8 months, so its not like its fresh out the breakup.
I have freedom, choice, the sun is warm and its friday
Good day to be alive
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« Reply #77 on: May 20, 2023, 09:59:31 AM »

We continued chatting late into last night. We ended up brining up our shared favortie novel, of which many inside jokes and references have been made between us in the past. She has still had an air of "Im doing the best I can with my damaged mind" kind of attitude in her conversation

There is a female charecter in this book who has a traumatic past, is aloof, flighty, guarded, and avoidant.
She has joked in the past that she is like this charecter.
Last night she said in seriousness "I really understand her now, like, she makes so much sense to me"
The main charecter in this book loves this woman, and over time learns she is not to be chased, cannot abide being "Beholden" to anyone, and can certainly be Cruel. He uses this word to describe her, differentiating between something that is evil, or malicious, to something that, by its very nature, is cruel. He compares it to a thunderstorm. You dont get mad at a thunderstorm for causing damage, as it is only acting according to its nature.

The closest thing ive said so far to something eluding to our relationship was
"Yes, and he understands her like nobody else does. Normal people are normal, but for all that, they lack your fire."

Still trying to stay above my emotions here.
im surprised how well im handling this.
2 months ago this would have totally Eff'ed me up.
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« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2023, 12:12:49 PM »

We continued chatting late into last night. We ended up brining up our shared favortie novel, of which many inside jokes and references have been made between us in the past. She has still had an air of "Im doing the best I can with my damaged mind" kind of attitude in her conversation

There is a female charecter in this book who has a traumatic past, is aloof, flighty, guarded, and avoidant.
She has joked in the past that she is like this charecter.
Last night she said in seriousness "I really understand her now, like, she makes so much sense to me"
The main charecter in this book loves this woman, and over time learns she is not to be chased, cannot abide being "Beholden" to anyone, and can certainly be Cruel. He uses this word to describe her, differentiating between something that is evil, or malicious, to something that, by its very nature, is cruel. He compares it to a thunderstorm. You dont get mad at a thunderstorm for causing damage, as it is only acting according to its nature.

The closest thing ive said so far to something eluding to our relationship was
"Yes, and he understands her like nobody else does. Normal people are normal, but for all that, they lack your fire."

Still trying to stay above my emotions here.
im surprised how well im handling this.
2 months ago this would have totally Eff'ed me up.

So proud of you brother, regardless of what happens next.  I can't say that enough!  

It is encouraging that she's also seeing some of her destructive tendencies and realizing that she needs to deal with it.  That's 90% of the battle, which I know from watching my daughter suffer for over 10 years.  One day she finally got tired of it, decided to take therapy seriously, and she was a completely different person about 9 months later.  I love her so much and I am so proud of her as well.  Just know that despite what everyone says here, there's always a little bit of hope.  

My BPD daughter is my best friend in the world today and we share everything...that was IMPOSSIBLE the first 22+ years of her life since I always had to be the tough parent (since my wife also had BPD and we had no idea).  The crazy thing is that I never walked on eggshells with the kid, yet always walked on them with the wife.  One relationship is flourishing, the other is dead.  Hopefully that's a lesson for everyone here- pushing back with love and compassion can change everything.

Keep your head up brother and stay grounded, don't get sucked back in too quickly!  Love her as much as she's able to love you, and I have a gut feeling that in time this is going to be a great love story here.
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« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2023, 09:15:33 AM »

 Well, the boyfriend is gone. But the fact that she asked to come hang out last night tells a very different story. We spent about 3 hours hanging out, at my house. We did not hook up, we just spent 3 hours shooting the breeze. We had talked throughout the day before. We discussed briefly that we arent "getting back together" and that things would not be like they were in January. She said some of the most self critical, but rational, self aware stuff ive ever heard her say yesterday during our text chats. Here is the big takeaway, I WASNT EMOTIONALLY ALL OVER THE PLACE. I was chill, it didnt get me all hyped up or anxious, and I thought long and hard after she left "WHAT IF THIS WAS A ONE TIME THING?" and im OK with that. I understand her flighty nature, and I have my own pad and life, so her presence in it isnt a NEED, its a want.
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« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2023, 07:11:08 PM »

Well, the boyfriend is gone. But the fact that she asked to come hang out last night tells a very different story. We spent about 3 hours hanging out, at my house. We did not hook up, we just spent 3 hours shooting the breeze. We had talked throughout the day before. We discussed briefly that we arent "getting back together" and that things would not be like they were in January. She said some of the most self critical, but rational, self aware stuff ive ever heard her say yesterday during our text chats. Here is the big takeaway, I WASNT EMOTIONALLY ALL OVER THE PLACE. I was chill, it didnt get me all hyped up or anxious, and I thought long and hard after she left "WHAT IF THIS WAS A ONE TIME THING?" and im OK with that. I understand her flighty nature, and I have my own pad and life, so her presence in it isnt a NEED, its a want.

Keep it up brother, you're doing just fine.  No rush on anything.  So proud of you!
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« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2023, 09:10:43 PM »

Keep it up brother, you're doing just fine.  No rush on anything.  So proud of you!
Not only no rush, but no hope of a certain outcome either.
I said to her last night, Im not concerned with yesterday or tomorrow.
Im just enjoying my life as it is.
If she chooses to continue to be around for it, we will see what happens, but I am not asking for that to happen or banking on it.
I've said ages ago at the start of my journey here, a true couple CHOOSES eachother, everyday.
She is not at the point where she can be relied on to make that choice everyday, for years on end, but for now I'll see if she continues to CHOOSE to reach out to me, and she will have to be the one to ask to hang out for now. I will not chase her, both for my own mental health, and she doesn't like being chased.
She is like a cat.
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« Reply #82 on: May 22, 2023, 12:36:10 PM »

Not only no rush, but no hope of a certain outcome either.
I said to her last night, Im not concerned with yesterday or tomorrow.
Im just enjoying my life as it is.
If she chooses to continue to be around for it, we will see what happens, but I am not asking for that to happen or banking on it.
I've said ages ago at the start of my journey here, a true couple CHOOSES eachother, everyday.
She is not at the point where she can be relied on to make that choice everyday, for years on end, but for now I'll see if she continues to CHOOSE to reach out to me, and she will have to be the one to ask to hang out for now. I will not chase her, both for my own mental health, and she doesn't like being chased.
She is like a cat.

That's all you can do- all of us are in the same boat.  If my ex reaches out, I'm kind and compassionate.  If she doesn't reach out, I'm living my life and my focus is on what's right in front of me at the moment.  It's a very healthy place to be.

I'll admit, I'm a little jealous of you right now.  But I'm also so happy for you and so incredibly proud.  Keep doing what you're doing, don't have a moment of weakness where you let your emotions spill out, and just enjoy the here and now.  You're blessed, my friend, and I couldn't be prouder.
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« Reply #83 on: May 22, 2023, 12:45:14 PM »

That's all you can do- all of us are in the same boat.  If my ex reaches out, I'm kind and compassionate.  If she doesn't reach out, I'm living my life and my focus is on what's right in front of me at the moment.  It's a very healthy place to be.

I'll admit, I'm a little jealous of you right now.  But I'm also so happy for you and so incredibly proud.  Keep doing what you're doing, don't have a moment of weakness where you let your emotions spill out, and just enjoy the here and now.  You're blessed, my friend, and I couldn't be prouder.

My therapist caustioned me against the possibility she is just using me as a band aid again, and I am not putting myself in a place of  vulnerability for that. Therapist also brough up future ability to trust given all that has happened, which is also 1000% valid.
I told her we arent getting back together, and that I am going into this expecting her to be flighty, I am not investing in anything unless i see consistancy and progress.
That being said, I am very accepting to this if I am where she chooses to spend her time.

This is the last chance too, if I am left for another person, or treated poorly, I am walking, blocking and never again talking.
I support her pathway to mental health, I want nothing more in the world for her. She is showing clarity and self awarenss I have never seen from her, but I will not allow myself to be crushed by this again.
I will be peceptive enough to see the tower falling if it begins to fall again, and I will get out of the way.

That said, its delightful to speak to her again. Other peoples wit, and personality simply dont compare.
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« Reply #84 on: May 22, 2023, 04:03:47 PM »

My therapist caustioned me against the possibility she is just using me as a band aid again, and I am not putting myself in a place of  vulnerability for that. Therapist also brough up future ability to trust given all that has happened, which is also 1000% valid.
I told her we arent getting back together, and that I am going into this expecting her to be flighty, I am not investing in anything unless i see consistancy and progress.
That being said, I am very accepting to this if I am where she chooses to spend her time.

This is the last chance too, if I am left for another person, or treated poorly, I am walking, blocking and never again talking.
I support her pathway to mental health, I want nothing more in the world for her. She is showing clarity and self awarenss I have never seen from her, but I will not allow myself to be crushed by this again.
I will be peceptive enough to see the tower falling if it begins to fall again, and I will get out of the way.

That said, its delightful to speak to her again. Other peoples wit, and personality simply dont compare.


Been following along, OK. Fascinating story so far.

I was going to warn about what your therapist told. you. She may be using you for emotional support. You mentioned earlier a page or two ago that when you did have a contact from her she didn't really ask you anything about your life, what you were up to, how she might have made YOU feel. It was all about her.

I say that because in one of my 'breaks' in my relationship I was just fed up with being verbally abused and taken for granted, and then a huge explosion happened from her with name calling and put-downs that just made me take a big step back, emotionally. She later texted me to meet her for dinner at 'our' place, and I did. I observed carefully how the conversation went- it was completely about her, her life, her son, his activities. She didn't ask me one thing about me, didn't apologize for the massively abusive attacking, didn't even acknowledge how hurtful it was. Like it never happened.

If I may offer a thought, feel free to dismiss it. It feels to me like you are feeling pretty good about all this because you're much more in control now- she is reaching out to you, she is showing need for you, she is even acknowledging some of her faults. This must feel good, validating.

But, she is the same person who did ALL the things before, when you thought you two were in love, had each other's backs, your guard was down.
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« Reply #85 on: May 22, 2023, 05:44:28 PM »

Been following along, OK. Fascinating story so far.

I was going to warn about what your therapist told. you. She may be using you for emotional support. You mentioned earlier a page or two ago that when you did have a contact from her she didn't really ask you anything about your life, what you were up to, how she might have made YOU feel. It was all about her.

I say that because in one of my 'breaks' in my relationship I was just fed up with being verbally abused and taken for granted, and then a huge explosion happened from her with name calling and put-downs that just made me take a big step back, emotionally. She later texted me to meet her for dinner at 'our' place, and I did. I observed carefully how the conversation went- it was completely about her, her life, her son, his activities. She didn't ask me one thing about me, didn't apologize for the massively abusive attacking, didn't even acknowledge how hurtful it was. Like it never happened.

If I may offer a thought, feel free to dismiss it. It feels to me like you are feeling pretty good about all this because you're much more in control now- she is reaching out to you, she is showing need for you, she is even acknowledging some of her faults. This must feel good, validating.

But, she is the same person who did ALL the things before, when you thought you two were in love, had each other's backs, your guard was down.
Jaded, get yourself a 1-800 number for psychic readings.
Your post mirrors my very thoughts this evening.
She has asked about my stuff, but VERY minimally, and as you described, there was nothing resebling an apology.
She knows that I would be receptive to communication.
I do feel good, and it is validating, but it is also showing me that she is just putting out feelers again.

The saturday before last, she called and was yelling and screaming at me.
this week she talks like normal, and eventually comes over.
It felt like a temp check looking back. She got an assesment of my situation.

Heres the interesting part. She told me her relationship "failed" recently. This was in a text on Friday.
I had to know, so I asked a friend to see if she still had a relationship status on facebook. As I am still blocked.
She does.
So, she knows her relationship failed.
He just doesn't yet.

I am confident similar things happened to me behind my back.

Im not couch surfing anymore. I dont live in a camper.
I have my own life, and my own dating options.
Im not chasing her, begging her or anything resembling that.
I don't think she realizes how keenly I am watching her behavior.
I am pleasantly surprised how much this ISNT setting me off my emotional stability.
I am fine, and I see the situation for what it is.

If she wants to talk, she will have to seek me.
Same with seeing me, and I am not going to be a secret side guy. No way in hell.
So the next few weeks will be pretty decisive.

I'm nobodys option.
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« Reply #86 on: May 23, 2023, 08:41:05 AM »

Came to the conclusion that I am yet again the 2nd option. She is still with her BF, or just hasnt dumped him yet, and doing sneaky crap behind his back. I suspect she may have even targeted a new person this weekend at the renn faire she went to. She already seems much more aloof in the last few days since Sat when she came over. She was simply testing the waters. I know what it looks and feels like when she is actually interested, and being in touch with her again put my blinders on, the only difference this time is they didnt stay on. I am backing off, not pursuing, and letting her do all the messaging and asking to hang out (if she does at all).
She was sending me messages of our trail last night, and I imagine going to Niagra will certainly bring up some feelings. She needs to commit, and decide to PLEASE READ or get off the pot. Yet again.
I am not waiting around to be 2nd fiddle.
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« Reply #87 on: May 23, 2023, 09:46:10 AM »

I am not waiting around to be 2nd fiddle.

do you think you may be getting ahead of things here?

her relationship may, or may not be on the rocks, but you say they are still an item.

shes talking to you, but both of you have clearly stated to each other "we are not getting back together". more than once.

i dont see the issue here, or what she is doing that is upsetting.

even if they broke up this minute, and she wanted to get back together i dont think it would be wise to jump head first into a relationship again - it would likely be over before it started.

why? the relationship ended for important reasons. reasons that, if they are overcomeable, need a careful, thoughtful strategy when it comes to how theyre going to be resolved.
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« Reply #88 on: May 23, 2023, 09:53:13 AM »

do you think you may be getting ahead of things here?

her relationship may, or may not be on the rocks, but you say they are still an item.

shes talking to you, but both of you have clearly stated to each other "we are not getting back together". more than once.

i dont see the issue here, or what she is doing that is upsetting.

even if they broke up this minute, and she wanted to get back together i dont think it would be wise to jump head first into a relationship again - it would likely be over before it started.

why? the relationship ended for important reasons. reasons that, if they are overcomeable, need a careful, thoughtful strategy when it comes to how theyre going to be resolved.
I couldnt agree more with your last sentence.

Insofar as what is upsetting? She knows how I feel, and how strongly, and the visit the other day was very clearly a temp check. Just to guage my interest level.

How do you think im getting ahead of myself? Legit question, I'm curious to know. This is uneasy ground and I want the best footing I can have.

I am most certianly not jumping back into a R/S with her,
However, she has strung me along in the past.
She needs the emotional validation when whomever she is currently with is boring, or if she is lonely for too long.

Im just not interested in being kept secret (specific words she chose, she said to protect her daughter who she doesn't want to know were speaking yet, but I knows its also because she's still dating someone and doesn't want them to know were talking. this is the 3rd time she has done this with me over the years.)

Im not interested in being the 2nd choice if she cant find something better.
She has to choose to seek me out, to speak with me.

That is all, I am just not chasing her. I owe MYSELF more than that, I have bent over backwards to save this relationship, only to have been lied to, cheated on, and strung along.

I am owning my own self respect, If she wants to be part of my life, there needs to be trust, transparancy, and honesty.
This isnt going to happen overnight, and If we were discussing relationship again, couples therapy would be top of my requirement list.
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« Reply #89 on: May 23, 2023, 09:56:28 AM »

Her level of interest is shifted quite a bit over the weekend. She was very chatty and eager to come over on saturday, and then she went to a big local event on Sunday, and this is purely speculation on my part, but I think she may have met somebody new there.
She reached out to me because she was getting bored with the person she was dating, and just as we began talking again, she probably met someone else and his backing off again. This is exactly what she did in January
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« Reply #90 on: May 23, 2023, 01:18:27 PM »

After chatting a bit more, i threw out a flirtatious message.
She ignored it, and I asked "too soon"
She said "Yes, Im just trying to talk civilly, I can't go there"
I said Ok, No problem, then sent the below message. to which she has read, but not replied to.

"I will not be pursuing, firstly because I respect your wishes, and I am glad we are talking and wanted to be civil with you, in the hopes we can maybe eventually be a thing, even if quietly for a while. Secondly, I want to be wanted back, if you're feelings on this change, I'll be here, but I can't not have feelings and attraction for you.
This is all well meaning, I'm just trying to communicate my feelings.
And that's all I have to say about that. I'd like to just keep chatting about fun stuff rather than dwell on this, I just wanted to let you know how I felt"
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« Reply #91 on: May 23, 2023, 07:13:05 PM »

You've done so. She knows though she likely already knew. Even in a non BPD relationship, repeatedly doing this is off-putting.
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« Reply #92 on: May 24, 2023, 02:42:56 AM »

You terribly miss this wonderful person that loved you crazy like no one else had done before. But I'm afraid this particular person is gone, it existed only for a moment. I might be wrong, but I think she just lives off her feelings which just come and go, and which she can hardly control at will. She only knows that new people might bring new wonderful emotions even if just for a moment, but she's likely unable and maybe even unwilling to try and stir up those feelings which have simply dried up and are gone. She misses those wonderful moments, but they are now gone, and she's back again in her painful reality. I wouldn't say she hates you, but I'd guess that her fascination with you has diminished from the love-bombing 100% to some much lower level, like 10% or 20% or whatever, and she herself cannot help it. Her emptiness and pain have taken over again and so she probably has to look for someone else to soothe them just for a moment. For some reason the honeymoon had come to an end: she hates it's gone, you hate it's gone, but you don't want to let it go, while she may have already come to terms with that reality. She's probably largely driven by her feelings which she cannot control. First, the child is absolutely fascinated and absorbed by her new toy and she really just absolutely loves it. Her fascination and love are so real. But as the time goes by she somehow looses her interest in her favourinte toy and she cannot control it. Life becomes less colourful for her and in order to make her happy again she believes she just needs a new toy. I might be wrong, but I think that's what happened to you, to me, to all of us. They didn't mean to hurt us, though they most likely knew they eventually would. But they feel they cannot help what they are doing. They are driven by both empiness and painful feelings, and they dream about happiness and stability they believe all other people have. They hurt people, but I think they cannot help it. My friend said that at the end of each relationship "there is just NOTHING there", so it was never hard for her to leave – from what I saw happen with her previous relationship it was not exactly the case with all feelings: she struggled initially, she missed her lover a bit, she was attached to him a bit, she valued him a bit, she granted him some good qualities, but she definitely didn't want a future with him, cos he no longer numbed her emptiness and pain, and the initial fascination with him was just totally gone. She was kind of sorry for him, but she had to keep on moving. That's all. Her fascination and love for you were her real feelings, but now they are just largely gone for some reason unknown to her. Now she feels just growing emptiness and pain and has to do something about that. Maybe a new guy is temporarily filling the gap. Seems like to BPDs relationships are like drugs or alcohol they take in to numb the pain and emptiness which are killing them on the inside. Drugs and alcohol do their work for a time, but then their effect simply wears off and BPDs start looking for a new dose.

Just like with any other person, you cannot force anyone to love you. You need to come to terms with this sad truth. But I believe there's Someone who really cares. You just need to find and discover that deep and stable love that each one of us so desperately needs.
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« Reply #93 on: May 25, 2023, 03:43:18 PM »

Well I am in "Chiller Mode"
I am not reaching out, and when she does, my answers are polite but brief.

She has begun sending photos from her mini-vacation with her daughter.
Still not entirely sure why. She has established that she has not interest in persuing things romantically right now.
I have told her I cannot do platonic.
So it all seems...contradictory.

Im not doing the friendzone thing.
She has tried this before and I shut it down,.
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« Reply #94 on: May 25, 2023, 06:06:45 PM »

Well I am in "Chiller Mode"
I am not reaching out, and when she does, my answers are polite but brief.

She has begun sending photos from her mini-vacation with her daughter.
Still not entirely sure why. She has established that she has not interest in persuing things romantically right now.
I have told her I cannot do platonic.
So it all seems...contradictory.

Im not doing the friendzone thing.
She has tried this before and I shut it down,.

Friends first.  Then you see what happens.  She has some interest...that's the only reason to reach out.  Just take it slow, let her define the pace, and enjoy just getting to know each other again.

Remember, the friend zone is safe.  The friend zone is your friend.  If you try to force your way out of that, she's gone.
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« Reply #95 on: May 26, 2023, 08:40:29 AM »

Friends first.  Then you see what happens.  She has some interest...that's the only reason to reach out.  Just take it slow, let her define the pace, and enjoy just getting to know each other again.

Remember, the friend zone is safe.  The friend zone is your friend.  If you try to force your way out of that, she's gone.

Pook, I don't disagree with you, but at the same time, I do.
Im trying to be paitent, but I've been burned by playing the "Orbiting" game with her before.

I am challenged here, between my Self Respect and Moving On vs. Waiting for her, and trying to work around the disorder.

1 of 2 things is happening right now, and that makes it very hard to choose the right course of action.

1.) She is legit starting to miss me, regret her descisions, and is truly focused on herself and her daughter. The slow trickle of contact we've had has been increasing, and "rushing" has been a problem for us in the past. She told me her relationship "Failed" and it may have, and she may just be waiting for the right time to extricate herself from that scenario.
if this above paragraph is what is happening, then it behooves me to be paitent, and caring and to wait for the time to be right. Basically everything you said above Pook.

2.) The other scenario is that, she is using me for emotional validation. She has somebody else in her life, but just like in Jan, or during our first breakup, the replacement she has found is not emotionally or intellectually stimulating, and she ends up orbiting back to me to fulfill those needs. She has no intetion of getting bac together, and is satisfyed knowing I am here, an option and she can keep me on the back burner, while still remaining with her BF, or continuing to date until she finds something sufficiantly new and shiney. Even if this is a subconcious act, it is still a malicious one, and takes advantage of my feelings, and our past, so she can get what she wants.
If THIS is the actual scenario, I have no other choice but to leave quietly, and stop responding to her messages. For my own health and growth.

The fact remains, there are things she has been dishonest about, recently.
However the contact continues and is increasing.
She has not said anything that would indicate we will be hanging out more often, or that her conversation has not gotten any more flirtatious, close or romantic.

I'm truly at a loss as to how to proceed here.
While I am fine to be paitent and show her Im in it for the long haul (for the 3rd time...)
If the 2nd scenario is closer to the truth of the situation, all I would be doing is furthering my pain and extending my period of healing.

Any advice would be much appreiated.
As the Clash once said, Should I Stay or Should I Go?
If i stay there will be trouble, and if i go it could be double.
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« Reply #96 on: May 26, 2023, 09:40:51 AM »

OK—been following your journey for a while. I am with you, my friend.

You describe two possible explanations for her behavior. What if it’s both?

The pieces might not fit together. There might not be a coherent whole. There might not be a singular motivation for her behavior, or a single trajectory for the steps ahead. It just might be chaos. It might be her trying to survive the storm inside her, one moment at a time.

I think that’s true of my ex. I could never see it when I was in that storm with her. I’m starting to see it now.
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« Reply #97 on: May 26, 2023, 12:19:51 PM »

I agree with Cranmango, BPD and low self esteem sort of go hand in hand.  My wife has zero self esteem and it leads to her always gravitating towards whoever will give the most validation- and that could be our kids, her mom, whatever.  I don't think they're looking for sex and romance as much as that genuine connection with another human where it's safe to love and be loved. 

I see the same in my BPD daughter, she always has a favorite person that she latches onto.  And sometimes I'm like, "What the heck?  That person is a complete loser- why them?"  Who knows why, but they fill a need and it feels healthy.

Like Cranmango said, I think it's most likely both your scenarios combined.  I'm not saying she's seeing someone else right now, and I'm not saying you should try to get back with her.  I'm telling you, if you push it, she'll run for the hills.  That's just how it goes.  Like I shared with my wife and daughter though, your ex is seeking emotional validation and she's coming to you for it.  That's a very good sign if that's what you also want, to connect emotionally once again and just be there for each other.

What's it really mean?  She's lonely and she trusts you with her thoughts and feelings.  It means exactly that, no more and no less.  How you respond will determine where it goes from here, how comfortable she'll get around you again.  Just keep doing what you're doing- honesty, fair boundaries, compassion.  See where it leads.

Now, if you're starting to have serious feelings for her and you're wanting to jump back in, then maybe that's not healthy at this time because you know the patterns.  That's the only reason I'd tell you to back off at this time.  As long as you realize her intentions are somewhat mysterious and you're okay with friendship for now, this is not a bad thing at all for either of you.
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« Reply #98 on: May 26, 2023, 02:46:56 PM »



Now, if you're starting to have serious feelings for her and you're wanting to jump back in, then maybe that's not healthy at this time because you know the patterns.  That's the only reason I'd tell you to back off at this time.  As long as you realize her intentions are somewhat mysterious and you're okay with friendship for now, this is not a bad thing at all for either of you.


Pook, thats just it. I am still very very much in love with this woman, and feeling like she views me as "Bad History" is super super hard to swallow.
She sent me photos from her trip, at Niagara, (a place sentimental to her and I) and seeing photos of her daughter and her, my brains first thought is "Ahh my lovely fiance and step daughter! I love them so much"
Then my brain goes..."Oh...right. Thats gone"

And that is hard to stomach.

I agree that she is probably herself, confused.
After all, how many times has she painted me black, said she hates me and never wants to see me again.
Yet her we are. Slowly orbiting closer again.

Its so damn confusing.
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« Reply #99 on: May 26, 2023, 03:06:43 PM »

Damn confusing, indeed. If you are confused by her behavior, that's a strong sign that she's confused, too. Pointing out the inconsistencies of her behavior will likely only sour things.

You being consistent in your words and actions might help her achieve a bit more stability. A port in a storm.

But you also know full well by now that the path won't be linear. There will be ups, downs, and loop de loops.
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« Reply #100 on: May 26, 2023, 03:12:29 PM »

Damn confusing, indeed. If you are confused by her behavior, that's a strong sign that she's confused, too. Pointing out the inconsistencies of her behavior will likely only sour things.

You being consistent in your words and actions might help her achieve a bit more stability. A port in a storm.

But you also know full well by now that the path won't be linear. There will be ups, downs, and loop de loops.

She is continuing to send pictures of sentemental things from her trip. References to our past trips.
Nothing resembling lovey dovey anything, but its more frequent, and more personal.
the contact of late has me hyped up, and its bound to make me make rash descisions.
I am chilling out.
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« Reply #101 on: May 26, 2023, 05:29:43 PM »

She is continuing to send pictures of sentemental things from her trip. References to our past trips.
Nothing resembling lovey dovey anything, but its more frequent, and more personal.
the contact of late has me hyped up, and its bound to make me make rash descisions.
I am chilling out.

My advice?  Go on a date with one of your recent new friends.  Put this to the side for a day or two, and maybe try to get grounded once again in the "it's over" mindset.  I get what you're saying, I really do, my wife would reach out for just about anything and the wheels in my mind would start turning.  I'd think, "Maybe this could lead to that, and then we'd..."

That's such a toxic way of thinking because life is not about "what if's", it's about the present and what's right in front of us.

Buddy, if you want to talk to her, then talk.  If it's too tough, then it's okay to say that too.  Just be sure you mean it once you put up that boundary.  You have a really, really good thing right now with healthy conversation and fond memories.  She knows what she's doing, bringing up Niagara and stuff like that.  She knows you'll make the connection because she's making it too.

What's it mean?  I have absolutely no idea, and she probably doesn't know either.  She misses you but doesn't want you back, because taking you back could mean things get bad and her heart gets broken again.  Yet she's still reaching out, still letting you in without all the anger and venom.  Honestly, I'm proud of her and I don't even know her.  But I'm really proud of you as well.

Just keep doing what you're doing, it's all good stuff brother.  I'll continue to pray for you guys.
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« Reply #102 on: May 30, 2023, 09:56:33 AM »

fter some spuratic contact throughout the weekend, I asked her this morning if she wanted to catch up this coming weekend so she could tell me about the trip

Her response: "I'm not sure about this weekend. I'm still hesitant to become close, it's not exactly easy. I don't want to go into a direction that would lead you to think we could even get into a secret relationship of some kind. I hope you understand maybe I shouldn't have come over to catch up."

My Response: "No problem, if you want to hang out let me know. If not it's no biggie. Same with chatting, I only want those things if you chose it. I don't want a secret anything LOL. Glad you had a good time"

She said "thanks for understanding, I Don't know if i can do hang outs at this time. I am having a hard time again, Im working through it, and I am on a new med to help with my constant state of "fight or flight" and hyper vigilance. Hoping it helps with my nightmares."

So, she never outright says NO, its always "Not now" or "Maybe" or "ill think about it" I believe she is still "in a relationship" on facebook, i havent checked in ages. So she wants to be able to talk online, and be friendly, but is still hiding from hanging out in person. Well, im not inititing conversation. I will continue to reply only. So the level of contact is strictly up to her. Still seems like she is keeping me on the back burner.
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« Reply #103 on: May 30, 2023, 12:11:49 PM »

fter some spuratic contact throughout the weekend, I asked her this morning if she wanted to catch up this coming weekend so she could tell me about the trip

Her response: "I'm not sure about this weekend. I'm still hesitant to become close, it's not exactly easy. I don't want to go into a direction that would lead you to think we could even get into a secret relationship of some kind. I hope you understand maybe I shouldn't have come over to catch up."

My Response: "No problem, if you want to hang out let me know. If not it's no biggie. Same with chatting, I only want those things if you chose it. I don't want a secret anything LOL. Glad you had a good time"

She said "thanks for understanding, I Don't know if i can do hang outs at this time. I am having a hard time again, Im working through it, and I am on a new med to help with my constant state of "fight or flight" and hyper vigilance. Hoping it helps with my nightmares."

So, she never outright says NO, its always "Not now" or "Maybe" or "ill think about it" I believe she is still "in a relationship" on facebook, i havent checked in ages. So she wants to be able to talk online, and be friendly, but is still hiding from hanging out in person. Well, im not inititing conversation. I will continue to reply only. So the level of contact is strictly up to her. Still seems like she is keeping me on the back burner.


Good stuff brother!  Very good stuff and I continue to be your biggest fan.  I shot you a PM as well since I'll be away for a few weeks.  Keep up the good work!
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« Reply #104 on: May 30, 2023, 03:09:40 PM »

Good stuff brother!  Very good stuff and I continue to be your biggest fan.  I shot you a PM as well since I'll be away for a few weeks.  Keep up the good work!

Im done playing games. I am going back into full no contact. She is stringing me along and only keeping me as close as she wants me. I am only here to serve as a second therapist and an emotional tampon.
I am interesting to talk to, and she doesnt get intellectual stimulation from other people.

Well, Im done. Im out. Seek it elsewhere.

I know my value, I know my worth.
I am worth being chosen, and consistantly.
Im done hoping for scraps.

Goodbye, for good and all this time. GOOD. BYE.
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« Reply #105 on: May 31, 2023, 05:49:11 AM »

what happened?
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« Reply #106 on: May 31, 2023, 09:19:46 AM »

what happened?

I am continually lied to, given just enough contact to seemingly keep me interested, but at arms length.
She is still in a relationship, and lied to me about it without me even asking.

Most importantly, this whole thing is so one sided. As i mentioned a few posts back, she only ever talks about her stuff, never asks about my son, or how I am doing.
She values me for our intellectual connection, which she has verbally mentioned not being able to find elsewhere.

I am here for her to be able to text, and get supportive loving responses back. I am here to prop her up when she is feeling down, and then be put back in my box on the shelf.
She only wants me for what she needs me for, and she very clearly does not care how it might effect me.
She does the same with the kids. She has gotten my sons hopes up in the past only to back off again. She did this around Christmas.
I believe this is the same reason she reached out near her birthday. She needs to feel
I was brought back into her vicinity in January because she was lonely, then as soon as she found something new, I was villified and tossed again.

Short Answer to your question Once Removed,
She uses me, she only reaches out when she needs something, she leads me on and strings me along (while presenting the illusion that shes activley trying to AVOID doing these things. She has to have a self percived clean concious after all) , and the whole thing is one sided, selfish and inconsiderate.
Real Couples choose eachother, I have chosen her and waited for years. She has played chase and catch, highschool drama games.
Im done with that.
She can choose me if she wants, but she hasn't and isn't.
So I am not putting my heart on the table to be smashed again, if she wants it, she will have to earn it.
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« Reply #107 on: May 31, 2023, 02:54:36 PM »

ME: Its exactly what she intended. I had been doing pretty good in no contact. things were improving. then she had to dangle the carrot, then yank it away, and now I am back to square one on the dopamine addiction. I was just staring at my phone, that shows her online, waiting for a message. But then i remebered. She doesnt need anything right now. She doesn't care. I am stronger. I have shown that. She will cave again and im Effing ignoring it next time

THERAPIST: That is probably a good idea. I feel like you had made a lot of progress and you were feeling much better and stronger and then she popped up again. Hopefully you aren't back at full square one and can rebound quickly. You deserve someone who chooses you consistently, and not just when they need something or someone to "vent" to.

ME: Thats why i mentioned in my last messages to her that "I dont want to have to hide or be secret" and I also said " I cannot be platonic", and lastly, i said "I know if you truly want to see and speak to me, you will seek it out" I think she expected me to text everyday now that that door is open, Here is what I thought about all day, and I will say to her if I need to.
"If you wanted to see me, i know you'd make time to do so. Youve done so in the past. Same thing with reaching out to chat. If you really really WANTED to talk to me, you would, regularly. I know what it looks and feels like when you want and love me, and this isnt it. I am not going to chase what doesnt reciprocate my feelings. If thats ever the case again for you, give me a call, if not, I hope your life is peaceful. Farewell."


P.S.  - It is worth mentioning that that last conversation her and I had ended amicably and things were fine. There was no fight or blowout. I am just sick of being strung along, being told "maybe" and lied to about why she is keeping the fact that were talking hidden.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2023, 03:07:16 PM by OKrunch » Logged
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« Reply #108 on: June 01, 2023, 10:17:10 AM »

Well, after some spuratic and mostly hollow conversation, i reiterated to her that Im not interested in friendship, (being that she never says NO, just "i dont think so" or "I am not sure") I told her "I know you said you were unsure about hanging out, let me know if you decide you want to. Otherwise I hope you enjoy the weather with the dogs before it gets rainy out this weekend. Have a nice June. Cya later" She just said "I hope you enjoy the weather too". That, is all the answer i needed. I had to put it out there one last time. Back into full blown no contact. Deleted her contact info, deleted our conversation thread.

I am stepping back from all of this.
I will keep in touch via email with therapist.

Ill come back here in a month or two and drop an update.
Im done living in the past.

I hope you all have a great start to summer, peace and love to you all.
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« Reply #109 on: June 01, 2023, 03:24:50 PM »

I had considered sending one last "Im done, and I am not going to be waiting around on the sidelines" type of boundary text, because I dont really want her to continue thinking I am excitedly waiting to hear from her.

My therapist said silence will say this best, and I am going to heed her advice,

but Man, let me tell you, its very hard not to just flat out tell her I am angry, and that I am no longer her 2nd option.
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« Reply #110 on: June 01, 2023, 04:30:43 PM »

I had considered sending one last "Im done, and I am not going to be waiting around on the sidelines" type of boundary text, because I dont really want her to continue thinking I am excitedly waiting to hear from her.

My therapist said silence will say this best, and I am going to heed her advice,

but Man, let me tell you, its very hard not to just flat out tell her I am angry, and that I am no longer her 2nd option.


Silence speaks volumes. By you responding in anger you give up your power and make yourself look bad. She wins. Your therapist is providing you sage advice here so definitely heed her advice and fight back your impulses.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-
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« Reply #111 on: June 01, 2023, 06:10:21 PM »

Silence speaks volumes. By you responding in anger you give up your power and make yourself look bad. She wins. Your therapist is providing you sage advice here so definitely heed her advice and fight back your impulses.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-
I agree, its the longer harder path.
I wouldnt respond in anger persay, but I wanted to tell her I am not waiting around as a second option.
I don't like the idea of her knowing and continuing to think that I am just waiting for her and will be available at her beck and call. So therefore the desire to reach out and say this is strong. I feel like its unjust to go and "let her get away" with treating me like this in January, and again two weeks ago (although we didnt sleep together like we did in Jan)
I am not doing so, as despite it being the longer harder path, I do agree with what you say here.


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« Reply #112 on: June 01, 2023, 06:24:08 PM »

I agree, its the longer harder path.
I wouldnt respond in anger persay, but I wanted to tell her I am not waiting around as a second option.
I don't like the idea of her knowing and continuing to think that I am just waiting for her and will be available at her beck and call. So therefore the desire to reach out and say this is strong. I feel like its unjust to go and "let her get away" with treating me like this in January, and again two weeks ago (although we didnt sleep together like we did in Jan)
I am not doing so, as despite it being the longer harder path, I do agree with what you say here.




She isn't getting away with anything. You are just tired of the BS  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) and ready to grow and move forward. So you move on. In a sense the best revenge is living well and doing well without her. Focus on that. At some point the guilt and shame will get her, but you will never know about it. You are making the wise decision to not be around for it and continuing to be an emotional tampon.

For the record...it only appears on the surface to be the longer harder path right now. If you just Nike it and focus on YOU it becomes the easy path.

Keep your head up, keep doing the work and you will end up a better, stronger version of yourself. I have faith in you.

Be kind to you and take care of yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-
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« Reply #113 on: June 01, 2023, 06:36:55 PM »

She isn't getting away with anything. You are just tired of the BS  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) and ready to grow and move forward. So you move on. In a sense the best revenge is living well and doing well without her. Focus on that. At some point the guilt and shame will get her, but you will never know about it. You are making the wise decision to not be around for it and continuing to be an emotional tampon.

For the record...it only appears on the surface to be the longer harder path right now. If you just Nike it and focus on YOU it becomes the easy path.

Keep your head up, keep doing the work and you will end up a better, stronger version of yourself. I have faith in you.

Be kind to you and take care of yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-
In fighting back the wave of anger right now.
Im pretty effing angry, and I really really really want to just tell her she is selfish and cruel.
Its distracting me from being able to enjoy a social event, im sick of being angry and feeling hurt.
I feel betrayed, lied to and played with.
How do you just let that lie? and not speak the truth to the perpetrator?
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« Reply #114 on: June 02, 2023, 10:29:19 AM »

How do you just let that lie? and not speak the truth to the perpetrator?

you test it, with perspective.

the advice youve gotten with regard to trying to reconcile has been the same since the beginning: if you want a shot at this, you are going to have to play the long game.

the message youve been given from her (and, frankly, the same message you gave her) has been the same since the beginning: we arent getting back together.

the long game is never, and was never going to be easy, and there are no guarantees.

shes in a relationship. thats going to have to play out. there is no guarantee that it would lead to getting back together, even if it ended today. there is no guarantee as to how long that will take. she told you that the relationship was on the rocks, but that sounds more like the confusion and uncertainty of a new relationship than lying to you or leading you on (though probably inappropriate of her to confide in you!).

there is a long, painful history between the two of you, one that affected her daughter, at least, a great deal.

there are a lot of fond feelings between the two of you, but they are immensely complicated, and they are mixed.

it seems (correct me if im wrong) that most of your anger and frustration seem to stem from your expectations here, of being on the path to reconciliation, and the resulting anxiety when shes not actively or consistently working toward that path.

that is fair enough. its a real tough and unenviable position. no one would blame you for walking away from it. no one would blame you for taking the position that friendship isnt a possibility.

but i dont think that blowing things up or forcing her hand is serving you.

a friendship where she is actively seeking you out, wanting to hang out, reminisce, even one where she is regularly inquiring about your life, im not sure that that is realistic. i am friends with a few of my exes. in no case do i have that kind of relationship with any of them. we catch up, maybe once or twice a year. in one case, i used to go to her halloween party once a year. our conversations are not deep, and we usually share very little beyond surface things about our lives. i am not a priority to them. they are not a priority to me. i would say the relationships enrich my life, but they are as minor a part of it as they could be.

now, you say friendship is a non starter. it would have been for me too. in all cases, those friendships developed years after the breakup. you say the relationship is shallow, and unfulfilling for you. that shes self centered, talks about herself, doesnt ask about you, doesnt make the effort to see you. i would ask myself why, if thats the case, you still want to talk to her, see her, and get back with her, but all of those things are valid reasons to give up on or walk away from a friendship.

it is, also, what playing the long game is probably going to look like. long. inconsistent. likely painful. it will not go according to expectations or ideals. the point is to use the time to: get her out of your day to day life, grieve the old relationship completely, get the relationship, such as it is, on a healthier trajectory, and ideally, find yourselves at the right place at the right time at some point down the road, with a very new game plan.

it would require commitment, and a steady hand. it would require you to see this from her perspective, without being reactive. it would require you to let her lead, and to set the pace.

i dont have the sense that shes doing anything malicious here, or trying to use you, or trying to lead you on. but i can see how her actions, coupled with your expectations, are painful, and confusing.

she clearly still has feelings for you. shes also apprehensive about those feelings. those feelings come with a great deal of baggage. when you force her hand, and basically tell her "choose me or im walking away", youre resurfacing that baggage, backing her into a corner, and it is human nature that she will balk every time.

because in the mean time, shes testing this new relationship out. new relationships are exciting. they are all consuming. they are the top priority, at least for a while. she may have doubts about it, but for whatever feelings she has for you, she has more reason to doubt or be uncertain of those. a new relationship is safer. newer. fresher. free of baggage. its easier, and frankly, its usually wiser.

you will notice that when youre cool and even keeled, when youre safe and pressure free, her feelings are warmer. she seeks you out. she wants to reminisce. when you push for more, she pulls back, you feel wounded, and, ultimately, the dance perpetuates.

i think my point here OKrunch, is to stop perpetuating the dance. at this point, all it is doing is dragging out the breakup, and ultimately hurting both of you.

walking away completely is a valid option. it doesnt seem like its what you really want to do, although that doesnt mean its the wrong choice. sometimes the best choices for our mental health are the hardest.

waiting her out is a valid option. it doesnt have a high success rate, and it requires a lot of commitment and emotional balancing to maximize what chances it does have.

detaching with grace is also an option. it basically means leaving the door open, but not investing, and generally, slowly closing that door.

these are all different options at your disposal. i think the point is to work to get centered, and, with help, work to stay there and act from that place. right now, you are mostly riding the whims of confusion - yours and hers - and shes probably even more confused than you are.
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« Reply #115 on: June 03, 2023, 09:03:25 AM »

you test it, with perspective.

the advice youve gotten with regard to trying to reconcile has been the same since the beginning: if you want a shot at this, you are going to have to play the long game.

the message youve been given from her (and, frankly, the same message you gave her) has been the same since the beginning: we arent getting back together.

the long game is never, and was never going to be easy, and there are no guarantees.

shes in a relationship. thats going to have to play out. there is no guarantee that it would lead to getting back together, even if it ended today. there is no guarantee as to how long that will take. she told you that the relationship was on the rocks, but that sounds more like the confusion and uncertainty of a new relationship than lying to you or leading you on (though probably inappropriate of her to confide in you!).
Well, I agree on the long road. It was something i realized a long time ago. this is not going to be a short journey. I have always felt like our "Story isn't over". I knew what that felt like after my divorce, and this just...keeps going.
So, her relationship DID end recently, that is now known. However her and I are back in a "limited to no contact" situation it would seem. She is figuring herself out.


there is a long, painful history between the two of you, one that affected her daughter, at least, a great deal.

there are a lot of fond feelings between the two of you, but they are immensely complicated, and they are mixed.

it seems (correct me if im wrong) that most of your anger and frustration seem to stem from your expectations here, of being on the path to reconciliation, and the resulting anxiety when shes not actively or consistently working toward that path.

that is fair enough. its a real tough and unenviable position. no one would blame you for walking away from it. no one would blame you for taking the position that friendship isnt a possibility.

but i dont think that blowing things up or forcing her hand is serving you.
I've never wanted to force her hand, it's just the constant vagueness and hot/cold tendancies that are so confusing and often hurtful. I want her to be happy, and if that means not having me in her life, i accept that. Its not what id prefer, but if its what must be, then so be it. I just want a clear answer, a clear path.

a friendship where she is actively seeking you out, wanting to hang out, reminisce, even one where she is regularly inquiring about your life, im not sure that that is realistic. i am friends with a few of my exes. in no case do i have that kind of relationship with any of them. we catch up, maybe once or twice a year. in one case, i used to go to her halloween party once a year. our conversations are not deep, and we usually share very little beyond surface things about our lives. i am not a priority to them. they are not a priority to me. i would say the relationships enrich my life, but they are as minor a part of it as they could be.

now, you say friendship is a non starter. it would have been for me too. in all cases, those friendships developed years after the breakup. you say the relationship is shallow, and unfulfilling for you. that shes self centered, talks about herself, doesnt ask about you, doesnt make the effort to see you. i would ask myself why, if thats the case, you still want to talk to her, see her, and get back with her, but all of those things are valid reasons to give up on or walk away from a friendship.

it is, also, what playing the long game is probably going to look like. long. inconsistent. likely painful. it will not go according to expectations or ideals. the point is to use the time to: get her out of your day to day life, grieve the old relationship completely, get the relationship, such as it is, on a healthier trajectory, and ideally, find yourselves at the right place at the right time at some point down the road, with a very new game plan.

it would require commitment, and a steady hand. it would require you to see this from her perspective, without being reactive. it would require you to let her lead, and to set the pace.
That is what I am doing now. She will do what she will do. I don't want pity attention, If she truly WANTS to spend time with me, she will. I have to remeber, she is like an elememental, seasonal cat. She only comes to you, and will not be chased.


i dont have the sense that shes doing anything malicious here, or trying to use you, or trying to lead you on. but i can see how her actions, coupled with your expectations, are painful, and confusing.
Again I agree, in the throws of my emotions, it is easy to assume she is being malicious, but I know thats not who she is. Its all defense mechanism stuff. Its really unfortunate and I pity that she has to live like that. She always scared, and expecting pain. It dilutes any joy in her life.

she clearly still has feelings for you. shes also apprehensive about those feelings. those feelings come with a great deal of baggage. when you force her hand, and basically tell her "choose me or im walking away", youre resurfacing that baggage, backing her into a corner, and it is human nature that she will balk every time.
Engulfment is a hell of a thing. SHE IS A CAT.

because in the mean time, shes testing this new relationship out. new relationships are exciting. they are all consuming. they are the top priority, at least for a while. she may have doubts about it, but for whatever feelings she has for you, she has more reason to doubt or be uncertain of those. a new relationship is safer. newer. fresher. free of baggage. its easier, and frankly, its usually wiser.
That is over now, and i honestly think she feels more broken because of it. She said "Im single, and im going to stay that way, im hopless and broken"

you will notice that when youre cool and even keeled, when youre safe and pressure free, her feelings are warmer. she seeks you out. she wants to reminisce. when you push for more, she pulls back, you feel wounded, and, ultimately, the dance perpetuates.

i think my point here OKrunch, is to stop perpetuating the dance. at this point, all it is doing is dragging out the breakup, and ultimately hurting both of you.

walking away completely is a valid option. it doesnt seem like its what you really want to do, although that doesnt mean its the wrong choice. sometimes the best choices for our mental health are the hardest.

waiting her out is a valid option. it doesnt have a high success rate, and it requires a lot of commitment and emotional balancing to maximize what chances it does have.

detaching with grace is also an option. it basically means leaving the door open, but not investing, and generally, slowly closing that door.

these are all different options at your disposal. i think the point is to work to get centered, and, with help, work to stay there and act from that place. right now, you are mostly riding the whims of confusion - yours and hers - and shes probably even more confused than you are.

I got caught up in my emotions after seeing her in person for the first time since Feb. I need to reel myself back in when were in touch.
Her exact words - "OKrunch, You dont feel ANYTHING halfway"
and she is right.
We are both very heart-on-our sleeves type people, both blunt and vocal.
I need to go back to being the Mountain. Ever present, never moving, sotic, solid and implacable.
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« Reply #116 on: June 04, 2023, 04:04:33 PM »

Welp,
We ended up having another conversation this morning. She reached out to me to tell me that she had been quiet for the past few days because she had been thinking about things, and said that we shouldn't talk anymore. She went on to say that she's in a very introspective mode, she is single and staying that way according to her. I think she's upset that yet another relationship failed. She specifically mentioned the fact that anytime anyone gets close she freaks out and bails. So as with similar recent conversations she is still saying a lot of self-aware things. She is still on her journey and figuring herself out. I didn't say much myself, I listened and let her say what she wanted to say. I told her I was pretty much in the same spot as before, that I have reached a point of acceptance if we do not talk, I can understand if we never speak again, and I told her that I'm always here if she wants to reach out. So I guess I'm just kind of keeping the door open and doing my own thing. This is yet another thing that reinforces the fact that I cannot have any hope or investment in any of this. So it's a pretty mutually agreed upon thing as far as no contact is concerned right now. We have a lot of important anniversary dates and sentimental dates in our relationship past coming up at the end of June and into july. I do think those will affect her.

Simply put as I said, I am back to being a mountain. I am here I'm doing my own thing and existing in enjoying my own life. Her happiness is up to her, as well as her participation in my life.

It seems so basic of a statement, but literally it all boils down to this. It is what it is
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« Reply #117 on: June 06, 2023, 12:16:07 PM »

Another conversation, another attempt at control and guilt tripping.
Apparently asking once, to hang out, after she had recently come to do so, was "being way too pushy"

I simply said, "Im sorry you feel that way, but I disagree. Have a splendid summer, goodbye"

She replied "I don't know why you bother to say goodbye, we both know is just dramatic exaggeration on your part."

SO apparently she thinks im incapable of seperation, and is willing to mock me about it.
So, ill enjoy proving that one wrong.
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« Reply #118 on: June 06, 2023, 02:04:41 PM »

I've been doing some thinking, about me and not her. Well at least not directly, and I think really what it boils down to is finality.

I am legitimately afraid that we will never talk again. I fear completely disconnecting forever 100%. I'm afraid of her getting married and being happy with somebody else. I'm afraid of being alone.



My ego does not take the rejection well. We shared so much so it literally doesn't compute in my head that anyone should be able to just walk away from that, let alone multiple times. Not to mention the games and all the BS afterwards.



How do I overcome the fear of never speaking to her again? Of knowing that the love of my life didn't work, and this was after I got divorced.  Knowing that I tried literally everything, and she just doesn't care. I'm just afraid of it being completely over.

If I am sitting here logically thinking to myself that I'm done with all of this bull crap games, why do I still fear to lose it?
I dont want it but I dont want to lose it. It makes no sense.

I don't want to argue with her I don't want to fight with her I don't want to deal with any of her head games and I do not want to be used or second choice. So why do I fear giving up on her? Why do I shrink away every time I go to block her? Even though she has me blocked on everything. She has shown me time and time and time and time again how worthless I am to her, so why do I fear it being Dead Forever, even though I legit want to forget I ever met her?
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« Reply #119 on: June 06, 2023, 09:39:44 PM »

Diving into the root of your fears likely takes a lot of introspection, maybe into your FOO. As a retired moderator used to quip, "all roads lead to PSI." The Parent, Sibling, In-law board.

As for the ruminations, my former therapist told me that as much as I disagreed what the mother of our children was doing, and he was not a fan especially after she lied to him and abandoned couples' counseling, "she's an independent entity, free to make her own choices, no matter how unwise you view them." I knew what he was saying, but it took me a long time afterwards to realize what he was saying, emotionally on my side.
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« Reply #120 on: June 06, 2023, 10:44:29 PM »

So why do I fear giving up on her? Why do I shrink away every time I go to block her? Even though she has me blocked on everything. She has shown me time and time and time and time again how worthless I am to her, so why do I fear it being Dead Forever, even though I legit want to forget I ever met her?

Well pretty much this has nothing to do with her and is a wound you received in childhood from your mother which is lodged somewhere in your subconscious and stored in your body, so your relationship with the BPD matches that pattern completely and is now causing you to obsess over her and want her back --- it seems like its all about your ex but its actually all about your wound.  If you can start healing the underlying wounding, the trauma bond you have with your ex will also start to dissolve.   That's why its so hard to block her even though you know she's bad for you, because somewhere inside you she represents that love that you couldn't get from your mom.   I know it all sounds quite Freudian but amazingly accurate for most of us who have formed trauma bonds.
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« Reply #121 on: June 07, 2023, 03:16:48 PM »

Well pretty much this has nothing to do with her and is a wound you received in childhood from your mother which is lodged somewhere in your subconscious and stored in your body, so your relationship with the BPD matches that pattern completely and is now causing you to obsess over her and want her back --- it seems like its all about your ex but its actually all about your wound.  If you can start healing the underlying wounding, the trauma bond you have with your ex will also start to dissolve.   That's why its so hard to block her even though you know she's bad for you, because somewhere inside you she represents that love that you couldn't get from your mom.   I know it all sounds quite Freudian but amazingly accurate for most of us who have formed trauma bonds.
this is all good, but heres the thing.
My childhood was amazing, like Norman Rockwell levels of wholesome.
I grew up in an incredible neighborhood, with tons of friends, my parents are both still alive and married, quite happliy so.
They are the barometer by which i look at relationship succsess.
my mother worked for 25 years in a pediatric psyc facility, so she is very emotionaly intelligent and well educated.
I am looking into my childhood with my therapist, but I cannot for the life of me think of something in my childhood that would be the root of this.

However, I have been mistreated in almost every major romantic relationship in my life.
I definitley gravitate towards broken or spoiled women.

2004-2010 - First major relationship, I was unknowingly cheated on for almost 4 years (GF was in college, I was not)
2013-2017 - Ex wife, was cheated on (literal weeks after wedding) gaslit, dragged through court for 3 years.
2019-Curent - Ex Fiance - We all know the history there...
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« Reply #122 on: June 07, 2023, 09:46:59 PM »

this is all good, but heres the thing.
My childhood was amazing, like Norman Rockwell levels of wholesome.
I grew up in an incredible neighborhood, with tons of friends, my parents are both still alive and married, quite happliy so.
They are the barometer by which i look at relationship succsess.
my mother worked for 25 years in a pediatric psyc facility, so she is very emotionaly intelligent and well educated.
I am looking into my childhood with my therapist, but I cannot for the life of me think of something in my childhood that would be the root of this.

However, I have been mistreated in almost every major romantic relationship in my life.
I definitley gravitate towards broken or spoiled women.

2004-2010 - First major relationship, I was unknowingly cheated on for almost 4 years (GF was in college, I was not)
2013-2017 - Ex wife, was cheated on (literal weeks after wedding) gaslit, dragged through court for 3 years.
2019-Curent - Ex Fiance - We all know the history there...

So real talk...do you consider yourself to be a nice guy? Are you concerned with how others view you? Are you used to making sure everyone else is happy and before you are happy, essentially being a people pleaser? Simple question to move the dialogue along here. By no means am I trying to pry, just looking for pieces of the puzzle to help you put things together.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-
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« Reply #123 on: June 08, 2023, 06:59:05 AM »

So real talk...do you consider yourself to be a nice guy? Are you concerned with how others view you? Are you used to making sure everyone else is happy and before you are happy, essentially being a people pleaser? Simple question to move the dialogue along here. By no means am I trying to pry, just looking for pieces of the puzzle to help you put things together.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

I generally think that I am a nice person although I certainly am not a "nice guy" insofar is that I think that I'm owed anything or that I have this unfulfilled desire for some imagined version of love.
I have never, and probably will never give much of a crap about what people think of me.
I was the studded leather Mohawk kid in my high school, I specifically went out of my way when I was younger to make sure that people knew that I didn't care what people thought.
As an adult, the opinions of most other people are religious simply don't matter to me.
Be so far is being a people pleaser, it's not a general tendency that I have but it's definitely a behavior that I exhibit in relationships.
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« Reply #124 on: June 08, 2023, 12:44:39 PM »

 Truth and Epiphanies.

Truth - I obviously still want her attention, and validation from her attention. I am still wildly attracted to her, and need to be able to stand my ground when she is being engaging, and not ask how high when she says jump. I still CHERISH our happy memories, and I don't believe they are ALL love bombing. I believe there have been good stretches of time where she was legit as invested as I was, but for her that feeling is fleeting, and engulfment snuffs it out. I cannot say with confidence that I would be able to ignore communication and/or affection from her. I know this weakens my position, but I dont wana lie about my capabilites and limitations.

 Epiphanies - As much as I still care, and want her, I am so beyond done begging and making myself overly available. She needs to miss me, and I need to not care if she doesn't. I am making this harder on myself than it needs to be. She is not the end all be all of women, even if thats how I see her, I logically know that she isnt. I said my piece the other day, and I was not coy about what I said. She knows full well how much she has used and manipulated me. If she wants to play the "Flavor of the month" game to try and fill the hole in her spirit, shes welcome to try. She says shes staying single, which i believe, but I doubt she will be staying "Alone" So, I am back in full blown no contact. I said my piece, and I made my refusal to be used known. Now she can enjoy the TRUE absence of me in her life. Thank you again, and I apologize Ive been PLEASE READ at heeding all of your advice. I love who I love, and Im trying to figure out how to Not Love her anymore.
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« Reply #125 on: June 09, 2023, 03:07:06 AM »

I generally think that I am a nice person although I certainly am not a "nice guy" insofar is that I think that I'm owed anything or that I have this unfulfilled desire for some imagined version of love.
I have never, and probably will never give much of a crap about what people think of me.
I was the studded leather Mohawk kid in my high school, I specifically went out of my way when I was younger to make sure that people knew that I didn't care what people thought.
As an adult, the opinions of most other people are religious simply don't matter to me.
Be so far is being a people pleaser, it's not a general tendency that I have but it's definitely a behavior that I exhibit in relationships.

Ok so let's go into depth on that a bit more. Perhaps you may not be the typical nice guy, but yet in relationships you display "nice guy" tendencies. Why do you think that is? In essence, sure this relationship has been your focus, but perhaps we need to place more focus on the past and patterns that appear to be common threads.

Does anything stick out to you like a ya know perhaps in that past relationship it made me feel this way and so my behavior was like this and I responded like this and then you have that proverbial light bulb go off?

Cheers and Best Wishes!

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« Reply #126 on: June 09, 2023, 11:55:52 AM »

Perhaps you may not be the typical nice guy, but yet in relationships you display "nice guy" tendencies.
-SC-

What examples of this would you say you've seen?

Does anything stick out to you like a ya know perhaps in that past relationship it made me feel this way and so my behavior was like this and I responded like this and then you have that proverbial light bulb go off?
Ive been cheated on in every major relationship i have.
Id say if i have any negative relationship pattern its complacency.
its easy to fall into rhythms when the relationship stabilizes, and the "magic" dies down a bit.
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« Reply #127 on: June 09, 2023, 02:51:48 PM »

What examples of this would you say you've seen?
Ive been cheated on in every major relationship i have.
Id say if i have any negative relationship pattern its complacency.
its easy to fall into rhythms when the relationship stabilizes, and the "magic" dies down a bit.


"but it's definitely a behavior that I exhibit in relationships"

What is the behavior in your terms?

Additionally, let me put it this way. When you hear Nice Guy how would you define the personality or the behaviors associated with it...in your own terms?

Cheers and Best Wishes!

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« Reply #128 on: June 09, 2023, 05:42:15 PM »

"but it's definitely a behavior that I exhibit in relationships"

What is the behavior in your terms?
People pleasing, I will sacrifice my own contentment to make sure that my partner is contented. "Happy wife = Happy Life" kind of mindset. The classic Walking on Eggshells.

Additionally, let me put it this way. When you hear Nice Guy how would you define the personality or the behaviors associated with it...in your own terms?
To me it is a Buzz-Psyc internet term with bad vibes. It is often used to refer to a guy that is visibly desperate, and throws himself at any opportunity for physical and romantic attention. They are "forever in the friendzone" types.
The "Nice Guy" believes that taking a woman on a date and paying for dinner is a barter system with the expectation of getting laid, and when they don't, they get visibly upset and act like mysoginistic man-children.
Fledgling incels.
That is what I think of when I hear the term "Nice Guy"


Cheers and Best Wishes!

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« Reply #129 on: June 13, 2023, 04:40:56 PM »

After many days of quiet, the "gut feelings" are back. Which is odd when I am at peace, it make those intrusive feelings feel like a bothersome fly, or the looming wait before some task I'm dreading.
Getting these feelings while at peace also shows me they are not mine to own, and I wont.
other than this, I am at peace. Im fine with whatever does or doesn;t happen.

My job stabilized. I have my new place, and thats going well. I have intimate companionship, and a great circle of friends.

My current focus's are:
-Diet (im 6'2" 190lbs, but I eat mostly crap. I need to give my body REAL fuel. Ive been eating like the depressed bachelor I am for months, and my body hates me for it)

-Sleep (See above)

-Fitness (I've always sucked at doing fitness on the regular

-Quitting Smoking (again!)

-Get my car all squared away, perhaps a new one.

LIVE WELL.
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« Reply #130 on: June 14, 2023, 10:26:06 AM »

I am back in full blown no contact. I said my piece, and I made my refusal to be used known. Now she can enjoy the TRUE absence of me in her life.

This seems to be often / always what it comes down to.  With my ex BPD it got to the point that every interaction with her was painful, even when she was love bombing and trying to get me back, even that was unpleasant for me.  You reach a point, even if part of you still loves her and wishes she would heal, but you don’t want to see another message from her ever again.  This is where real healing can start..   Its weird, normal breakups for me are not like that.
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« Reply #131 on: June 14, 2023, 12:15:16 PM »

This seems to be often / always what it comes down to.  With my ex BPD it got to the point that every interaction with her was painful, even when she was love bombing and trying to get me back, even that was unpleasant for me.  You reach a point, even if part of you still loves her and wishes she would heal, but you don’t want to see another message from her ever again.  This is where real healing can start..   Its weird, normal breakups for me are not like that.

Its all the fruitless recycles. We broke up for 9 months in 2020-2021, then I moved back in. Then she kicked me out again in Sept. Since then she has orbited in at least three times, and then ducks back out.
Its like, if you're done, be done. I don't understand the patterns and repetition.
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« Reply #132 on: June 14, 2023, 02:15:16 PM »

Hey buddy, sorry I've been away the past few weeks.  I was overseas and ended up proposing to the love of my life, so my BPD journey with my ex has ended.  I will definitely stick around here though for you and a few other friends.

What I read from your posts over the past few weeks is that you still have an all or nothing mentality.  You have to break that because it means you can only talk to her if you're in a committed relationship.  I do understand that, you still care way too much and jealousy, anger, and resentment prevent you from just being friends. 

But here's the thing- you're still in love with her and struggling to move on.  You're even in another relationship but keep getting dragged back to her.  That's not healthy buddy, to be half in and half out.  All that does is bring pain that you don't deserve, that you're not meant to carry.  You have to choose- either you're waiting this out or you're moving on.  You can't do both.

From what you've shared from her side over the past few months, she has grown immensely in her acceptance of BPD and the steps she needs to take to get her life in order.  That's awesome for her and I'm proud of her.  She is making real progress and she's also reaching out to you, discussing her growth and bringing you into her life.  She clearly still loves you and trusts you, even if she's not able to say it.

For your past two months, you've moved on and found some happiness, some balance, plus a few new relationships.  All good stuff.  But you're at a crossroads because you can't fully close that last chapter of your life and you can't accept just friendship from her.  However, the only way you end up back together is through friendship and mutual trust, building a relationship all over again from scratch.  Sure, maybe she has a bad day and you guys end up in bed...great for the moment, but it doesn't fix anything long term.  Only mutual trust and understanding can do that, and you're closed off from that.

Can you see what I'm saying here?  You can never get what you want with the path that you're on.  You HAVE TO BE all-in or all-out, not a little bit of both.

For my relationship with my ex, what helped me finally give up completely wasn't my love for her...I still love her immensely.  Instead, it was the realization that she'll never be able to love me the way I needed her, to be there for the ups and downs in life as a true partner and best friend.  Once I saw that in my fiancee, I realized that I was on a fool's errand hoping for the impossible...something that could never happen because my wife's BPD and unwillingness to get help.

Your situation is different in that your ex is aware and making strides towards recovery.  But can she love you unconditionally for you?  We don't know that since only time will tell.  That doesn't change the fact that you have to make a real decision- can you accept friendship and slowly rebuilding trust, or should you just move on completely? 

I know what the universe is telling you...deep down, you know that answer as well.  But which path will you choose?  Walking away is almost impossible.  Starting over as friends is almost impossible.  Both are super hard.  You have to pick one and only one path though, my friend, so your mind and body can fully heal.

I continue to be your biggest fan and again, I'm sorry I was away for a bit.
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« Reply #133 on: June 20, 2023, 12:24:23 PM »

I think ive crossed a barrier. I don't get emotional when she is in touch, and I don't care if she isnt. She messaged me on Fathers day (I hadnt texted her in a while) and I was hanging out with my newish female friend, and barely paid it any mind.

Tuesday is Her Daughters therapy day, so right now the twisties are a thing, but they have been pretty mild of late. When last we spoke, she was nice, but was still in "Woe is me" mode. Complained of money, her car, the dogs etc. She said "the universe is punishing me for the abortion, and what I did to the kids" So ther than the strong ass twisties right this moment, I have been pretty free of the whole scenario. I have bigger more important things to worry about. Although the "Week of anniversaries" has begun. So that may shake things up a bit.
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« Reply #134 on: June 20, 2023, 03:16:07 PM »

Excerpt
I think ive crossed a barrier. I don't get emotional when she is in touch, and I don't care if she isnt. She messaged me on Fathers day (I hadnt texted her in a while) and I was hanging out with my newish female friend, and barely paid it any mind.

Glad to hear you feel less reactive when she contacts you. Your progress comes across in your posts. Keep doing what you're doing Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
Although the "Week of anniversaries" has begun. So that may shake things up a bit.

It might. You can stay grounded in your new sense of neutrality. The past is in the past. There is a lot to look forward to.
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« Reply #135 on: June 20, 2023, 07:25:24 PM »

I think ive crossed a barrier. I don't get emotional when she is in touch, and I don't care if she isnt. She messaged me on Fathers day (I hadnt texted her in a while) and I was hanging out with my newish female friend, and barely paid it any mind.

Tuesday is Her Daughters therapy day, so right now the twisties are a thing, but they have been pretty mild of late. When last we spoke, she was nice, but was still in "Woe is me" mode. Complained of money, her car, the dogs etc. She said "the universe is punishing me for the abortion, and what I did to the kids" So ther than the strong ass twisties right this moment, I have been pretty free of the whole scenario. I have bigger more important things to worry about. Although the "Week of anniversaries" has begun. So that may shake things up a bit.


Good for you brother.  It's a good sign when you make contact and it doesn't stir any serious emotions.  Just keep on keeping on.
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« Reply #136 on: June 21, 2023, 08:34:15 AM »

Communication has been spuratic, but way more frequent.
Things have been pretty relaxed as far as conversation topics go.

I want to ask to catch up in person, but last time we saw each other it made her back off again. So I'm going to wait on that for now.
Which is hard, it goes against my instincts.
 I think I need to let her be the one to have that idea
 Like my therapist said, she's like a cat.
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« Reply #137 on: June 21, 2023, 12:09:15 PM »

Excerpt
For my relationship with my ex, what helped me finally give up completely wasn't my love for her...I still love her immensely.  Instead, it was the realization that she'll never be able to love me the way I needed her, to be there for the ups and downs in life as a true partner and best friend.  Once I saw that in my fiancee, I realized that I was on a fool's errand hoping for the impossible...something that could never happen because my wife's BPD and unwillingness to get help

This summarizes it perfectly for most of us.  The power of the trauma bond will continue often beyond this point,  but there comes a point where you can see (without doubts) exactly how bad and toxic the BPD is for you.  I think this is where the real healing can start, because you no longer dwell as much in fantasies of rescuing them and getting back together.  Not saying those thoughts don’t come up sometimes, but it is no longer the predominant thought.  It shifts more towards “how can I detach and heal from this toxic situation.”
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« Reply #138 on: June 25, 2023, 02:52:56 PM »

Well, contact has been spuratic again throughout the last few days, and I have initiated mot of the conversation we've had.
I mentioned before that I can tell what the difference is between how she acts when shes interested and invested vs Whatever this has been.
Theres no enthusiasm in the conversation, a lot of one or two word replies, getting left on read for a day, etc.
It almost partly feels like shes only maintaining conversation out of pity or some form of breadcrumbing.
Im not here for that, so I am going to back off again.
This week was hard with all of the anniversaries and memories tied to it.
As ive said before, If she wants anything to do with me, A. I know what and looks and feels like when its genuine, and B. She would / will make it known if that changes.
So YET again (because I apprarently have the self control of a child) I will be backing off entirely.
If she notices or even cares about any absence of me in her life, she will do something about it.

Weve been split for 9 months now. This hs been too long coming.
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« Reply #139 on: June 25, 2023, 04:27:59 PM »

Excerpt
Well, contact has been spuratic again throughout the last few days, and I have initiated mot of the conversation we've had.
I mentioned before that I can tell what the difference is between how she acts when shes interested and invested vs Whatever this has been.
Theres no enthusiasm in the conversation, a lot of one or two word replies, getting left on read for a day, etc.
It almost partly feels like shes only maintaining conversation out of pity or some form of breadcrumbing.
Im not here for that, so I am going to back off again.
This week was hard with all of the anniversaries and memories tied to it.
As ive said before, If she wants anything to do with me, A. I know what and looks and feels like when its genuine, and B. She would / will make it known if that changes.
So YET again (because I apprarently have the self control of a child) I will be backing off entirely.
If she notices or even cares about any absence of me in her life, she will do something about it.

Weve been split for 9 months now. This hs been too long coming.

Hey OKrunch! I'm sorry contact has not been consistent lately. It can be confusing when someone acts hot and cold. You seem to have a good attitude about it, deciding to prioritize yourself and withdraw your energy. Don't beat yourself up about backing off again. I see it instead as a win that you are able to recognize when it is best for you to adapt and change your approach. Go with the flow, and put yourself first. Remember that this type of behaviour has nothing to do with you nor your value.
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« Reply #140 on: June 26, 2023, 11:17:49 AM »

Well after some more hot/cold conversation i decided to just approach the topic and get it done with .

here Is what took place via text today.

Me: " you got any plans this coming weekend? Want to go out to dinner or out for a walk in the historical district?"

Her: " I'm not going to be available on Saturday, I have my daughter for an extra day that weekend. As much as I enjoy that we can be amicable, I don't really feel comfortable with hanging out, or talking everyday"

Me: " already, no sweat. *Smiley face emoji*.
 Sorry you don't feel comfortable, I'm not sure why, but it's how you feel, so no biggie. No need to explain. Amicable is nice, but if there's no interest in ever hanging out I don't much see the point. Have a nice summer, and hit me up when you want to drop my stuff off"

Her: " because I'm trying to move on and rebuild my life. I can't do that if I'm holding on to the past. I've told you a few times as well that I would have to keep it a secret and I do not feel comfortable with Secrets. Not move on romantically, but like literally get my life back together. This will hold me back I'm sorry. I have been in a rut and have not even started looking through your stuff in the shed I'm sorry. I'll get moving so you can get whatever may be in there."

Me: " I obviously want you to do everything you need to do to make sure that you are in a happy healthy place. I guess I'm not sure about what it means by saying having to keep it a secret. As in from your friends and family? Your daughter mostly I'd assume? I'm sorry that you feel as though I would need to be secret, as I have said before I think there is a difference between actively Keeping a Secret and just spending our own time doing what we want to do. We don't have to make anything public, but that's not keeping a secret. It's not like I expect you to unblock me or announce that we're hanging out, but I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, I don't want you to do anything with which you're not comfortable with. I guess I'm just confused about whether or not you want to hang out just because you don't think it's a good idea, because it would be secret, or legitimately because you don't want to. Either way it's a bummer because I would like to see you, but I respect your decision and won't check in, but I encourage you to text me if you want to talk I miss my friend.

Her: " I know it will be bad for me so I would be too ashamed to tell anyone. I am having a hard time okay? Can you please respect when I say no? You're adding all these " do you actually want to?"  I don't want to dive in more okay? Please respect my No.

Me: " I 100% respect your no I'm sorry that you are having a hard time, I'm here for you if you need anything. Even if that's just to shoot the breeze about books and movies. I'm not trying to pressure you at all I'm just trying to make sure I completely understand your emotions and point of view"
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« Reply #141 on: June 26, 2023, 01:06:22 PM »

Man, just reading this exchange was a painful reminder of the endless cycle of self-doubt and guilt and pain that you will stay locked in as long as you are communicating in any way with a BPD.  In my experience, if you want to understand her behavior, here is the best lens i’ve found: she will do whatever maximizes your pain, weakens you, and gives her the most power and control.  If its telling you “i need a break” she’ll do that if its telling you “i love you and miss you” she’ll do that.  If you have moved on and started to heal, then she’ll reach out to “give you back some of your things” they will always find a way to reopen your wounds as long as you are communicating with them.  Frankly, if you are on these forums — or any normal person — you won’t have the grounding necessary to endure all the ways the borderline has to push your buttons.  NC and blocking my ex has been the only way for me to start healing, any interactions I can pretty much guarantee will push your buttons.
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« Reply #142 on: June 27, 2023, 03:53:01 PM »

How are you feeling about this latest exchange?

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« Reply #143 on: June 28, 2023, 10:35:56 AM »

How are you feeling about this latest exchange?



We had another since. It turned into a big blowout. I have lived in fear of speaking my mind because Ive been afraid of pushing her away and alienating her. Im done being used, played with and lied to.
I told her the full extent of my feelings, my hurt and how I am done being an option.
She flipped out, brough up a bunch of unrelated crap from the past, and literally spoke over me on the phone to the point where i could not get a word in edgewise.
I told her she is a liar, selfish, and goes out of her way to hurt people.
I told her I hated her and never want to hear from her again.
She is an emotional tyrant, and a stunted child.
I deserve better. She is now fully blocked, and staying that way.
This book is over.
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« Reply #144 on: June 28, 2023, 07:49:41 PM »

Which one of you reached out?
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« Reply #145 on: June 30, 2023, 04:54:01 PM »

We had another since. It turned into a big blowout. I have lived in fear of speaking my mind because Ive been afraid of pushing her away and alienating her. Im done being used, played with and lied to.
I told her the full extent of my feelings, my hurt and how I am done being an option.
She flipped out, brough up a bunch of unrelated crap from the past, and literally spoke over me on the phone to the point where i could not get a word in edgewise.
I told her she is a liar, selfish, and goes out of her way to hurt people.
I told her I hated her and never want to hear from her again.
She is an emotional tyrant, and a stunted child.
I deserve better. She is now fully blocked, and staying that way.
This book is over.

Sorry that happened brother, but good for you.  You do deserve better and I am glad you're starting to see that more fully.
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