Any ex's in treatment for BPD?

[Checkmate]

My ex has been formally dx with BPD ... .He's in treatment ... .

I keep wondering if he will and can overcome this disorder?

Anyone else with an ex in treatment who has been diagnosed? What has been your experience? Even with treatment was it still futile?

[LaoWho]

From what I've variously come across there are two things that stand out: first, the revelation here at bpdfamily.com from Randi Kreger that the only studies indicating any successful treatment of BPD have been those with low-functioning persons; and second, that the only book I've read on BPD indicated that with treatment and proper care the pwBPD can have manageable, if not very close/meaningful, relationships. Of course, the relative degree of BPD in a person, the particular traits they exhibit most predominantly, and other factors all make for an interesting question about recovery. Consider A. J. Mahari and others for example. Personally speaking (for my ex-), and for high-functioning pwBPD generally, I don't think they are inclined to submit to treatment in the first place.

LW

[seeking balance]

Yes, he can overcome, but it takes years.  Is he in DBT specifically, that has the best outcome.

Take a look at Steph story - it is a good one.  Additionally, there are other success stories on the staying board.

[SunflowerFields]

Mine was.

He quit after we broke up.

[Checkmate]

From what I've variously come across there are two things that stand out: first, the revelation here at bpdfamily.com from Randi Kreger that the only studies indicating any successful treatment of BPD have been those with low-functioning persons; and second, that the only book I've read on BPD indicated that with treatment and proper care the pwBPD can have manageable, if not very close/meaningful, relationships. Of course, the relative degree of BPD in a person, the particular traits they exhibit most predominantly, and other factors all make for an interesting question about recovery. Consider A. J. Mahari and others for example. Personally speaking (for my ex-), and for high-functioning pwBPD generally, I don't think they are inclined to submit to treatment in the first place.

LW

well, i will say that my ex is low function ... .on a scale of 1 (lowest) to 10 (highest) ... .I would rank him around 3 ... .

Yes, he can overcome, but it takes years.  Is he in DBT specifically, that has the best outcome.

Take a look at Steph story - it is a good one.  Additionally, there are other success stories on the staying board.

Yes, he's in DBT ... .I have suspected it will take years ... .

I used to be on the staying board ... .But when he had the affair and told those lies and blamed me for everything (this went beyond trying to get me to accept responsiblity for my actions, he was actually blaming me for his) I separated ... .

The stories on the staying board are few and far between ... .Even with treatment, success does seem to be relatively low ... .

Mine was.

He quit after we broke up.

I have wondered if he will continue treatment and using the tools as my involvement in his life lessens and lessens ... .

[duncanville1]

I got mine into treatment while we were together, some days i thought it was helping. In the end she decided the little progress she made was all she needed. She stopped treatment and we split up shortly after. I have no idea if she ever went back, because I haven't heard from her since, my guess is no.

[SunflowerFields]

I have wondered if he will continue treatment and using the tools as my involvement in his life lessens and lessens ... .

I wondered the same thing. I had so hoped that he would be at a place much better a few months down the road (the first signs, at least). I had been willing to be there for him to support him while thru it.

Instead, I found out a few days ago, when we saw each other for the first time since the breakup, he quit right after we broke up. So much for that.

[winandcover]

Lao, you've mentioned previously that low-functioning BPDs have the best chance of a successful outcome as a result of treatment.  Could you please shed some light on that.  My first question is why don't high-functioning pwBPD have equally, if not better outcomes as a result of therapy?  By no means am I trying to dispute the validity of what you're saying.  I very much respect your opinions and the insights that you've posted on this board, but what you've stated seems somewhat counter-intuitive.  In my mind, and by my over-simplified way of thinking, it would be akin to saying that raging alcoholics have a better treatment prognosis than do their counterparts whose addiction is less advanced.  Wouldn't people that are "not as BPD" (please forgive my poor phrasing) stand a better chance at successfully managing their disorder?

From what I've variously come across there are two things that stand out: first, the revelation here at bpdfamily.com from Randi Kreger that the only studies indicating any successful treatment of BPD have been those with low-functioning persons; and second, that the only book I've read on BPD indicated that with treatment and proper care the pwBPD can have manageable, if not very close/meaningful, relationships. Of course, the relative degree of BPD in a person, the particular traits they exhibit most predominantly, and other factors all make for an interesting question about recovery. Consider A. J. Mahari and others for example. Personally speaking (for my ex-), and for high-functioning pwBPD generally, I don't think they are inclined to submit to treatment in the first place.

LW

[once removed]

winandcover,

don't want to speak for laowho, but i think "low functioning" and "high functioning" refers to how they function in their day to day life, not the extent of their mental disorder.

low functioning can tend to include things like suicidal behavior and thoughts. from what i understand low functioning pwBPD benefit the most from DBT because it primarily serves to help with those sorts of things. thus making the overall life of a low functioning pwBPD more manageable, thus making them more receptive to any degree of recovery.

also, from what i understand, high functioning pwBPD tend to be more avoidant of treatment, and less willing to accept/acknowledge that they need it.

[atwitsend]

Mine decided to obsess about college and just graduated last week. She's 44. I don't even need to tell you what her degree is in.

[winandcover]

Lucky, thanks for your response.  Admittedly, I know very little about BPD aside from what I've experienced in the relationship I had with my ex and what I've read in "Stop Walking on Eggshells" as well as these boards.  If "low and high" are measures of a BPD's ability to function in day-to-day life, I would think that it stands to reason that their ability to work within the constructs of normal society is inversely proportional to the extent of their disorder.  For example, someone who is less affected by BPD would be higher functioning that a very disordered individual who has severe substance abuse problems coupled with suicidal thoughts and self-harming behaviors.  I know that I'm over-simplifying things here and that I'm not accounting at all for the various other factors that might affect persons with BPD and his/her ability to function during the course of their day to day lives.  By no means is it my intention to contradict what you're telling me, rather I'm trying to explain the thought behind my asking the question.  Thanks again.

winandcover,

don't want to speak for laowho, but i think "low functioning" and "high functioning" refers to how they function in their day to day life, not the extent of their mental disorder.

low functioning can tend to include things like suicidal behavior and thoughts. from what i understand low functioning pwBPD benefit the most from DBT because it primarily serves to help with those sorts of things. thus making the overall life of a low functioning pwBPD more manageable, thus making them more receptive to any degree of recovery.

also, from what i understand, high functioning pwBPD tend to be more avoidant of treatment, and less willing to accept/acknowledge that they need it.

[Checkmate]

Mine decided to obsess about college and just graduated last week. She's 44. I don't even need to tell you what her degree is in.

please tell me it's not psychology or counseling?

[2010]

Hope I can help with this as I met my partner in DBT. This therapy was created for adolescent girls who acted "in."

"Acting in" is considered low functioning behavior because it's the reaction to annihilation AND abandonment cycling. It is focused on the deficient self (rather than a grandiose false self) and seeks to punish the deficient self ( I am nobody, nobody loves me) rather than focusing on acting out against others. Because of this, the Borderline Adolescent keeps their "self" in constructed bondage and fulfills their prophecy belief that they are worthless slaves that are persecuted by the cruel and harmful master/mistress, i.e; the punitive parent.

"Acting out" behaviors, on the other hand, are considered high functioning behavior because they usually require a face. This takes form in the reactions to annihilation and abandonment cycling based upon a "false self" who evaluates others for what they value and then gives it to them. This valuation behavior is focused on the perceptions of the false self and the underlying belief that they will be punished for their badness and yet seeks to punish anyone who tries to strip away the false self. Attachments represent the primary object, i.e; the punitive Mother.

For the most part, the difference between the two is that the high functioning BPD is quite secretive as they emerge out of adolescence. They have taken so much effort to create a false self that they are somewhat successful in hiding the disorder until it is triggered in intimacy.  Therefore they can appear quite normal.

(Quote from a Borderline female.) “You'll also find that a BPD is very hesitant about letting you into their life but is more than willing to become a part of yours. If you have ever lived with a BPD you'll find that anything of theirs that can be locked will be locked. Anything that can be password protected, will be password protected. BPDs are so protective of themselves that this is often construed as paranoia. I can assure you, that a BPD is the last person to feel fear because we are overly confident. This is why we work so well under pressure.”

The offset of this is that you get gaslit. You get lies that appear as truth. The process is secretive- because it's a disorder that’s compulsively operating on survival instincts while seeking to avoid punishment during attachment to valued objects. Those valued objects are mirrored and subsumed by the Borderline because they have no sense of self other than the "false" self. That valuation you gave allowed the Borderline to attach, but he knows you are going to find out and he's going to turn bad at any minute. When he does, so do you. It's a cycle of neediness and mistrust.

The problem with much of Borderline behavior is that you *don’t see* what’s going on inside their heads until you are hit with their irrational behavior and the distorted perceptions which mostly CENTER around reactions to YOU. Your partner could be high functioning and smart as a whip in his professional realm but still show a spectacular lack of common sense when it comes to personal relationships. This is the deceiving appearance of the disorder. And it is a disorder. It's irrational. Bargaining with it by hoping that therapy will fix it isn't anything other than malignant optimism.

You must address the fear that this person will not get well. Let it sink in. You must also address the fear that this person WILL get well but no longer want *you* to be a part of their life. Let that sink in. It's uncomfortable, isn't it? I know I had to come to terms with this, and it isn't easy. This person that I loved really represented a need for me. If I could help them, I could help myself, but placing my feelings onto a person with Borderline meant that I was doomed. DOOMED. It was a no win situation. If the therapy didn't work or if it did (how was I to know unless I was constantly checking in? Now isn't that just like a punitive parent?) And that's just so familiar to the Borderline's heartache.

"If they continue in the relationship instead of deepening concern and communication, there ensues a struggle for control.  The centerpiece of the struggle is the threat of abandonment."

This applies to both people in the relationship. Both people are struggling with the *threat* of abandonment. Hoping and wishing for a cure is a struggle.

DBT isn't a cure. It's a workbook with coping skills. It doesn't address the family of origin issues that most Borderlines were taught as beliefs. So many high functioning Borderlines appear successful in their professional lives.  They could have enough knowledge and education to win the Nobel Prize, but it's their underlying beliefs that matter. I'm sure that if you review your relationship you'll see that your partner has given you enough examples of his BELIEF system to convince you that they are set beliefs.

They believe it is impossible to overcome their belief (!)

They believe they deserve to be punished.

They believe that if they don’t find a new attachment, before the current one ends, they will die.

They believe that they cannot cope on their own.

They believe they need someone to exist.

They believe they cannot bear unpleasant feelings without annihilation and without repetitiously revolving objects (new replacements) around them.

So you see, this is a belief system that's almost like the ten commandments. How long do you think it would take for DBT to change their beliefs? To change anyone's, even your own?

The pain you feel is your own belief that you need this person to get well- but this pain can be a drug to keep you down in the dumps- just like in childhood. This misery can feel like an unconscious need.  At this point, wouldn't it be better to challenge your own pain and the belief system behind your own thoughts? Your suffering comes from thinking that your spiritual wound can be fixed by this person-*and solely this person* if only they themselves would get help.  But when you think this way, it's only your want of another person to help you fix the wound that was created during your own childhood. This suffering that you're going through is due to this person coming in and ripping the scabs off of a long standing wound that you thought had healed and when you're in pain, you just want the person who caused it to come back and make it better again.

"Here's an odd thought,

Maybe non's are drawn (and quartered) to BPD relationships because some of us deep down inside don't believe we deserve to be loved.  So when we meet someone who is emotionally unavailable (which produces a strong draw) yet who appears to shower us with love (at the onset), it's like a fantasy fulfillment.  The honeymoon (aka carrot) is the fantasy that we can eat our cake and still have it, but as the relationship metastasizes, what keeps us in is the reinforcement of our deeply unhealthy beliefs about ourselves (aka stick).

Schwing"

I'm slowly coming to terms with this, and I have to accept at least a kernel of truth in it. My partner kept me stuck in FOG for years and that was while we were in DBT. Oh, what effort! When I finally let go (easier said than done) I had to see my own needs as infected. Do I *need* them to be well or did I *want* them to be well? If it is a want, then I can let go with love and let them figure out their own life. If it is a need, then I must address this as an addictive behavior with good counsel and effort.  An addictive need represents a wounding from childhood that has to be healed from within. It cannot be tended to by another person. I am responsible for it.

It's painful to have to let go, when I did, my partner immediately got married to someone he knew for 90 days and I did not find out about it until a year and a half later.  I have to grieve that. But I see the future holds a promise of laughter and happiness while the past held nothing but shame, anger and fear. Borderline is such a sad way to live. In spite of years of therapy, sometimes beliefs can change- but they have to be your own. We cannot change or control the disorder. We have to let go.

[Checkmate]

Thank you for the posting. Great information. 

The problem with much of Borderline behavior is that you *don’t see* what’s going on inside their heads until you are hit with their irrational behavior and the distorted perceptions which mostly CENTER around reactions to YOU. Your partner could be high functioning and smart as a whip in his professional realm but still show a spectacular lack of common sense when it comes to personal relationships. This is the deceiving appearance of the disorder. And it is a disorder. It's irrational. Bargaining with it by hoping that therapy will fix it isn't anything other than malignant optimism.

Isn't this the truth. I swear, if one more person asks me how I missed this I will need a straight jacket. Where there indicators that something wasn't "right" ... sure ... .Could those instances be explained by the circumstances surrounding them? In every case up until the day when I couldn't understand what was happening - it was on this day that the relationship began to change.

I didn't miss anything as much as I misread things because of circumstances that made sense. For example: One of them is the immaturity. My ex is 11 years younger than I am. I did talk to my parents about this. They have a 23 year age gap. They told me to give it time because they had to adjust to it as well. Just one example of how the situation explained the behavior. And, as a side note, my parents have an AWESOME marriage. I would kill to have what they have, which probably explains my acceptance of this age gap.

DBT isn't a cure. It's a workbook with coping skills. It doesn't address the family of origin issues that most Borderlines were taught as beliefs. So many high functioning Borderlines appear successful in their professional lives.  They could have enough knowledge and education to win the Nobel Prize, but it's their underlying beliefs that matter. I'm sure that if you review your relationship you'll see that your partner has given you enough examples of his BELIEF system to convince you that they are set beliefs.

Isn't that the truth. Its not a cure. I realized that about a year ago. And yes, he has serious FOO issues which are being dealt with in individual therapy. Not the least of these is that his parents are very controlling (of a man in his 30's still, ugh! and they are the biggest enablers on the planet).  As for what his belief system is? That is still up for debate. It's a greyzone due to the way his parents raised him. I think I have about 1/2 of that system down after 4 years. Truthfully, I pretty much detest his parents for who they are and what they have done to this wonderful person.

"Here's an odd thought,

Maybe non's are drawn (and quartered) to BPD relationships because some of us deep down inside don't believe we deserve to be loved.  So when we meet someone who is emotionally unavailable (which produces a strong draw) yet who appears to shower us with love (at the onset), it's like a fantasy fulfillment.  The honeymoon (aka carrot) is the fantasy that we can eat our cake and still have it, but as the relationship metastasizes, what keeps us in is the reinforcement of our deeply unhealthy beliefs about ourselves (aka stick).

Schwing"

I can truly say this isn't/wasn't the case with me.

I'm slowly coming to terms with this, and I have to accept at least a kernel of truth in it. My partner kept me stuck in FOG for years and that was while we were in DBT. Oh, what effort! When I finally let go (easier said than done) I had to see my own needs as infected. Do I *need* them to be well or did I *want* them to be well? If it is a want, then I can let go with love and let them figure out their own life. If it is a need, then I must address this as an addictive behavior with good counsel and effort.  An addictive need represents a wounding from childhood that has to be healed from within. It cannot be tended to by another person. I am responsible for it.

Yes, my partner is a master of confusion/chaos based FOG. What I am having to work on is this - My beliefs are such that when you say "I love you" or "I do" or you make a committment, a person's word is their bond and it's unbreakable. Along time ago I realized that we, as a society, rely on contracts and wiggleroom and greyzones to get us out of our messes instead of doing as we say we will do. No, I don't' mean be rigid or inflexible, I mean do what you say you will do and adhere to the spirit of an agreement as well, even if it's specifically spelled out.

I also believe that many people today throw away relationships too easily. They they expect perfection with out work. My parents taught me that flat out doesn't work. They have a great marriage because they have worked at it. So, when we hit bumpy times I didn't just toss in the towel. I did exactly as I believe to be right.

You know what? I will do the same thing in the future also. I may be wiser about how I chose to do it, but my basic belief that this is right is not going to change. My word is my bond.

The way I was raised is that love isn't only during the good times. It's also when things go wrong. Looking back this belief combined with my partners BPD led to a HUGE amount of FOG in my life.

It's painful to have to let go, when I did, my partner immediately got married to someone he knew for 90 days and I did not find out about it until a year and a half later.  I have to grieve that. But I see the future holds a promise of laughter and happiness while the past held nothing but shame, anger and fear. Borderline is such a sad way to live. In spite of years of therapy, sometimes beliefs can change- but they have to be your own. We cannot change or control the disorder. We have to let go.

Yes, letting go is definitely harder than I would have imagined. However, due to the way my partner/ex manifests his BPD, I do believe we can be friends afterwards. And I am going to work toward that. I'm friends or at least friendly with all my ex's. I just don't believe you throw people away casually.

[once removed]

Lucky, thanks for your response.  Admittedly, I know very little about BPD aside from what I've experienced in the relationship I had with my ex and what I've read in "Stop Walking on Eggshells" as well as these boards.  If "low and high" are measures of a BPD's ability to function in day-to-day life, I would think that it stands to reason that their ability to work within the constructs of normal society is inversely proportional to the extent of their disorder.  For example, someone who is less affected by BPD would be higher functioning that a very disordered individual who has severe substance abuse problems coupled with suicidal thoughts and self-harming behaviors.  I know that I'm over-simplifying things here and that I'm not accounting at all for the various other factors that might affect persons with BPD and his/her ability to function during the course of their day to day lives.  By no means is it my intention to contradict what you're telling me, rather I'm trying to explain the thought behind my asking the question.  Thanks again.

winandcover,

don't want to speak for laowho, but i think "low functioning" and "high functioning" refers to how they function in their day to day life, not the extent of their mental disorder.

low functioning can tend to include things like suicidal behavior and thoughts. from what i understand low functioning pwBPD benefit the most from DBT because it primarily serves to help with those sorts of things. thus making the overall life of a low functioning pwBPD more manageable, thus making them more receptive to any degree of recovery.

also, from what i understand, high functioning pwBPD tend to be more avoidant of treatment, and less willing to accept/acknowledge that they need it.

yeah, i can see where you're coming from. i can't really answer to that. i would only say i assume there are other factors that render them low or high functioning apart from the disorder. that, and i don't know whether or not people are less effected or more effected by BPD. the only thing i can say is that the high functioning type is the one who is a college professor, appears confident, neat, clean, well groomed, "highly functional." perhaps a less spotable borderline. low functioning is the one who lives in their own filth. i don't think you're oversimplifying, i think it's a great point, and again im not sure of its answer other than that i think it may be that there are other factors, not necessarily the extent of their disorder, and i think DBT more specifically addresses the more immediate needs of the low functioning borderline. from what i've read though, that's just DBT specifically, not necessarily recovery, or prognosis of it in general.

im reminded of ted bundy, who im in no way comparing to a borderline. but i suspect he'd be considered "high functioning." i don't think that guy had much of a shot at ever "recovering".

[Checkmate]

I thought that:

Low Functioning BPD meant that they "leaked" and that many people could see their erratic emotional based behaviors.

High Functioning BPD meant that they didn't "leak" much and that most people would never know that anything was wrong with them.

So if you have a very high functioning BPD in your life, pretty much only those closest to that person would ever know they had issues. Everyone else might think they were an amazing person. That if you told anyone about your pwBPD issues at home, they wouldn't believe it possible.

Since pwBPD use others to mirror and provide their sense of selfworth, then it stands to reason that if most people think that a very high functioning BPD is amazing, they wouldn't seek treatment. It would only server to validate that it was someone else's fault.

Lower functioning BPD'ers leak more so they get more and more negative feedback from others. It's harder to validate your behavior when many people are telling you it's not acceptable.

As I stated earlier i will say that my ex is low function ... .on a scale of 1 (lowest) to 10 (highest) ... .I would rank him around 3 ... .He is in treatment ... .We do discuss his actions and therapy ... .He knows I post on here ... .Heck, I've even read him some of the postings to see his reactions ... .