Perception vs. intent, why this is so real? Or is it?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I am going to ramble, so pardon me. This is something I have been trying to work out in my mind, and thought I would post about it and get some input.

Perception, the way one person views an event. Intent, the reasons behind a person action in an event. When the two arent the same, hurt becomes inevitable. I have been looking back at my past relationship and rerunning some events that happened with an open mind on perception. Let me give you a few widely know examples.

The JFK assasination. Never before in the history of mankind has the murder of such a highly respected and loved individual been caught on camera. We have all seen the footage. We all have our perceptions on what exactly happened. We have our beliefs, and will argue about it for thr next 40 years.

Easier example is a boiling pot of water. A two year old sees it as Bubbles. Another person sees it as capable of searing flesh, and yet another thinks of tea.

What Im trying to get at is how we view certain actions vs the intent of the actions. When I used to call my ex at work, she would never talk to me, she was too busy. Yet, if anyone else called her, she would spend hours on the phone. If she called me, I would stop what I was doing and talk to her. My perception of it was that she didnt hold me in high enough reguard to actually take a minute to talk to me. I felt like she didnt love me, or respect me. Now Im sure that this was not her intent.

Lets say that we have a couple named Harold, and Mary. Mary is an extremely loving individual, and Harold is an NPD. Harold meets a woman named Sally, and wants to have sex with her because he thinks she is hot. He does. Mary finds out about it. She perceives Harolds affair as proof that he doesnt love her, or find her attractive, and doesnt want to be with her. She is devastated. It is her perception that has devastated her. His intent was to have sex with this woman because he wanted to, not because of Mary's perceptions. His feelings of Mary have not changed. Given the same scenario, if Harold would have gone to Mary and said, look Mary, I love you, and nothing will change, but I want to have sex with Sally, how do you think Mary would have reacted? Would she be as devastated as the first scenario?

We have all been hurt with our ex's. Our perceptions of most of the events are just that, our perceptions. Would it hurt less if we actually knew the intent, or could see it rather than focusing on ourselves, and the way we saw it? Am I just fooling myself into thinking and looking back and seeing my exs past actions as intent, rather than how I viewed it at the time.

What is calling it into question for me is in fact my actions. My intent vs my perceptions. I thought I was a loving, caring person. And I am. I thought that I was in love with my ex. I thought I would die if I lost our relationship. I didnt like the person she is, I didnt like the things she did, I didnt like the way she treated people. This was my perception of the relationship. Now, with a new light shining down upon it, I know now that I didnt love her, it was her ability to distract me. I know that I wont die without our relationship, I actually am doing quite better. I am, however, confronting monsters in the past that I was running from. And that is the very reason that I was scared of losing my distraction in her. I understand now that her actions, because of her disease, were her way of dealing with her fight or flight perception of herself. Not a way of letting me know that she didnt love me, or I was sub par.

I guess in closing this, I am seeing a corilation between the way us nons think and our pain. We tend to think that our exs were lashing out at us. We think they were trying to hurt us. But in my mind, it had absolutely nothing to do with us. It was all about them. So how could we derive such pain and hurt out of something that wasnt about us in the first place? Other than the pain of the realization that we were not on the same poad, and we needed to part. Any comments?

[PDQuick]

I am going to ramble, so pardon me. This is something I have been trying to work out in my mind, and thought I would post about it and get some input.

Perception, the way one person views an event. Intent, the reasons behind a person action in an event. When the two arent the same, hurt becomes inevitable. I have been looking back at my past relationship and rerunning some events that happened with an open mind on perception. Let me give you a few widely know examples.

The JFK assasination. Never before in the history of mankind has the murder of such a highly respected and loved individual been caught on camera. We have all seen the footage. We all have our perceptions on what exactly happened. We have our beliefs, and will argue about it for thr next 40 years.

Easier example is a boiling pot of water. A two year old sees it as Bubbles. Another person sees it as capable of searing flesh, and yet another thinks of tea.

What Im trying to get at is how we view certain actions vs the intent of the actions. When I used to call my ex at work, she would never talk to me, she was too busy. Yet, if anyone else called her, she would spend hours on the phone. If she called me, I would stop what I was doing and talk to her. My perception of it was that she didnt hold me in high enough reguard to actually take a minute to talk to me. I felt like she didnt love me, or respect me. Now Im sure that this was not her intent.

Lets say that we have a couple named Harold, and Mary. Mary is an extremely loving individual, and Harold is an NPD. Harold meets a woman named Sally, and wants to have sex with her because he thinks she is hot. He does. Mary finds out about it. She perceives Harolds affair as proof that he doesnt love her, or find her attractive, and doesnt want to be with her. She is devastated. It is her perception that has devastated her. His intent was to have sex with this woman because he wanted to, not because of Mary's perceptions. His feelings of Mary have not changed. Given the same scenario, if Harold would have gone to Mary and said, look Mary, I love you, and nothing will change, but I want to have sex with Sally, how do you think Mary would have reacted? Would she be as devastated as the first scenario?

We have all been hurt with our ex's. Our perceptions of most of the events are just that, our perceptions. Would it hurt less if we actually knew the intent, or could see it rather than focusing on ourselves, and the way we saw it? Am I just fooling myself into thinking and looking back and seeing my exs past actions as intent, rather than how I viewed it at the time.

What is calling it into question for me is in fact my actions. My intent vs my perceptions. I thought I was a loving, caring person. And I am. I thought that I was in love with my ex. I thought I would die if I lost our relationship. I didnt like the person she is, I didnt like the things she did, I didnt like the way she treated people. This was my perception of the relationship. Now, with a new light shining down upon it, I know now that I didnt love her, it was her ability to distract me. I know that I wont die without our relationship, I actually am doing quite better. I am, however, confronting monsters in the past that I was running from. And that is the very reason that I was scared of losing my distraction in her. I understand now that her actions, because of her disease, were her way of dealing with her fight or flight perception of herself. Not a way of letting me know that she didnt love me, or I was sub par.

I guess in closing this, I am seeing a corilation between the way us nons think and our pain. We tend to think that our exs were lashing out at us. We think they were trying to hurt us. But in my mind, it had absolutely nothing to do with us. It was all about them. So how could we derive such pain and hurt out of something that wasnt about us in the first place? Other than the pain of the realization that we were not on the same poad, and we needed to part. Any comments?

[NewLifeforHGG]

I took a psychology class that addressed this issue. Perception is individual.

We bring all of our experiences to our perceptions. They may not be the truth or the facts but they are our truth and they are our facts.

This is why our childhood is so important. It forms the basis of our perceptions.

[JoannaK]

Well, my exh made it clear that he did want to cause me pain regarding a few issues...  There were things that came up during our time in marital counseling before we separated.  So don't assume that she didn't intend to cause you pain.  Remember that when a BPD splits you, whether for a few hours or for a few days or for several months, it is real...  The BPD person really does see you as an abuser, as a bad person.  And so they often feel completely justified in actually doing something that will hurt you... knowingly doing something that will hurt you.  BPD's are often vindictive, intentionally so. 

About the perception of pain...  Was Hitler deliberately trying to cause the Jews pain?  In one way, yes, as he saw Jews as people who were causing all kinds of problems for non-Jewish Germans.  In another way, no.  He was just trying to rid the world of people he regarded as sub-human.  It wasn't personal.

About the cheating...  I wouldn't care why the guy was cheating.  If he cheats, he's out (or there would be a major crisis in the relationship that might very likely cause the end of the relationship.)  If you are in an exclusive partnership, it means that both people claim to be engaging in a bit of self-sacrifice and they are avoiding sexually impulsive behaviors.  Intent or not, you know that sleeping with someone would seriously hurt someone you love deeply, regardless of your motives, so you don't do it.   

[gambaru]

Quick, only have time for a brief response and haven't read thoroughly, so, take that into consideration.

In your example, YEAH hell yeah Mary would've been devastated.  They agreed to a li'l thing called marriage vows.  So what you're really talking about is shifting boundaries.  Harold perceives it as no big deal, so, what, that should somehow comfort Mary?

Well, if I were Mary, I'd not be comforted.

Sometimes love means compromising.  Sometimes it means putting another's needs ahead of one's own.  Which is why, when a partner tells the other what hurts, it is the partner's responsibility to not do the thing that causes hurt.  Presuming the request is reasonable, and consistent, and not a huge mind-f^ck designed to test the partner as to how much s/he will take before snapping.

This non spent too many years trying to understand "why".  Sometimes, the "why" doesn't really matter.  Only the "what".  So regardless of intent, when one person is made fully aware of the consequences of his or her behaviour and does it anyway, the message is NOT, "you shouldn't be hurt by this".  The message IS, "I don't give enough of a d@mn about you to even TRY to avoid hurting you."

EOM

[methinkso]

PDQ,

When I studied psychology years ago I went through, and truly understand, the concept you are grasping.

But in the ensuing years, I came clear back around to believing that whether it is 'intent', or just selfishness, it hurts. It is bound to hurt. From things as small as being dismissed during a call to being forsaken by an affair.

In the case of either, I think a selfish person loses sight of the pain they are inflicting. But that is still disregard. They are putting their selfish wants above the others, and allowing themselves to be consumed in their want of another, or others.

So it might not be premeditated 'intent', but they are still just as guilty, IMO. In this case, I mean they might have got caught up in a situation, but they are still guilty.

Mts

[Peace4us]

PDQ

It is an interesting discussion. I am pretty simple when it comes to this stuff.

IMHO there are three perspectives, (the truth)what happened, what you think what happened and what I think what happened.


In a relationship you create an "agreement". In that agreement you have certain expectations that exist. No matter the circumstances to break the agreement is grounds for discord in the relationship.  Where we can get into flux is when there is not a clear agreement, and one or the other breaks an expectation. That is where the power of clear and concise communication comes to play.  The old saying "I am not Kreskin" still holds true, no one can read the mind of the other, so in intimate relationships it is vital for success to have clear and detailed communication about the "agreement".

To assume, makes an "ass"  out of "u" and "me"   

Peace4us

[csandra]

Hmmmm.  Which brings us to discussions of right and wrong, good and bad, moral and immoral.

It's easy to slip into the illusion that you share common values, when in intimate relation.  Is it always wrong to lie ? I guess we all say little lies every day, whether we intend to or not.

I held my husband to a much more narrow margin of error when we were "still in the ring".  Yeah, it was brutally painful to have him lie to me and then act like it was not big deal.  Now, as stbx, his margin of error is huge...I don't expect for him to tell me the correct time of day and besides we are very LC.  It's not so painful when he lies, covers up because I no longer hold him as accountable as when we were in relationship.

We no longer shared the same values and the shift did not happen suddenly.  Maybe to some it's no big deal to decide to not come home for dinner , but when you suddenly stop after 18 years...it's a change in value(regular, family time, predictability).

And yeah, like Joanna mentions, he did want to hurt me.  He hated it that I didn't just go  along with his lifestyle changes.  But you know, that was for wives of another generation.  It's shocking to think of the life he expected me to accept.  So yeah, he intended to hurt me based on his perception that I would not go along with his intended new life. He's still angry that I asked that he stop wearing his wedding ring and he had already told me that the only thing stopping him from filing was that he could not afford it.

Don't you people ever get sick of hearing me talk about my stbx ?

[NewLifeforHGG]

Nope csandra. I am not sick of hearing about him. That is what we are here for.

[PDQuick]

Hmmmm.  Which brings us to discussions of right and wrong, good and bad, moral and immoral.

Thank you all for your responses, and Csandra, you lead me into the next part of this thinking beautifully with what you said in this quote.

Right and wrong. There are very few things in this world that are wrong. Most things in this world are considered right, in the proper context. So the question really becomes, what is right for me. What is wrong for me, and does my partner share my morals and values? Does my partner think the same as me?

Example: Murder. Is it wrong? Really? Under every circumstance? Be careful with your answer. There are tens of thousand of men and women poised in the gulf coast on a daily bases with a mission to do just that. There have been millions killed "justifiably" because of a difference of opinions between nations. So who was right, and who was wrong? I guess it depends on which side of the fence you are standing on.

Being unfaithful. Infidelity. Is it right, or is it wrong? There are many cultures that embrace this. There are many people here in the US that embrace this as well. I dont, personally, but that is part of my moral make-up. To be totally honest, there is not one thing that I can think of that hasnt been accepted somewhere in this world, or somewhere in the passage of time.

So really, it comes down to the choice of partner. Do they share the same moral belief system that I do? I think none of us have really consciencially have thought about this, and probed our potential partners about this. If you were like me, I did assume that they were like me. And I got hurt because of that. To my ex, she believed it was ok to lie. She believed it was ok to cheat on me. She believed it was ok to take something that wasnt hers. Is that wrong of her? No, not really, It was wrong to me. Not her. Stealing is ok under the right context, just look at Robin Hood. Cheating is ok to her, as was it to the entire Egyptian and Roman empires. Lying, well all of us do it, just some of us have a limit.

So, again, Im stuck with this line of thinking. I am trying to figure out why, if we can fully understand this line of thinking, are we hurt by others actions? Why cant we view it as a bad partner choice and move on, rather than try to change our partners belief system, after all, could they really change ours? The chances are the same.

[bewildered2]

We tend to think that our exs were lashing out at us. We think they were trying to hurt us. But in my mind, it had absolutely nothing to do with us. It was all about them. So how could we derive such pain and hurt out of something that wasnt about us in the first place? Other than the pain of the realization that we were not on the same poad, and we needed to part. Any comments?

Our exes were definitely lashing out at us. They were definitely trying to hurt us, and they succeeded only too well. We suffered a great deal of pain that was deliberately inflicted inflicted by our bpso. Remember too that our bpsos study us well, they get to know our weaknesses, and when the time comes, they use that information, information we have given to them, against us in the most heartless fashion. So it is not correct to work on the basis that a Borderline means no harm. Quite the contrary.

The question to ask is why do they do this? The trite answer is that they are nuts. A more complete answer is that their sense, or perception, of reality is off. They are delusional. They sense something in your manner or behavior, or imagine completely that you are not on their side, and so if you're not on their side then you must be on the other side. They feel lied to, deceived, manipulated, let down, betrayed, and so they retaliate. It doesn't matter that you haven't done any of those things to them. All that maters to them is that that is the way they feel at the moment. And to a Borderline, feelings count. Forget about cool calm logical untwisted thinking. When they are triggered, all that goes out the window.

They feel hurt by you, and so they hurt you. As Joanna said, their splitting mechanism enables them to act in the most hurtful fashion possible because at the time they really really hate you. And in their mind, at the time, they feel entirely justified in doing so. And so it is easy for them to act cruelly, because in their mind you have been cruel to them. Of course, at a later point in time they may feel differently, and there is lots in the literature about a BPD feeling badly about hurting someone, once they have calmed down, and then their sense of shame kicks in, and then comes all the lovely over the top can't do enough nice things for you type behavior. Borderlines see people as all good or all bad. Their behavior towards you simply relfects how they are feeling about you at any given moment in time. It doesn't mean they are justified for thinking you're either very great or very horrible, it just means that's the way they feel.

Why are they delusional? No easy answer there except that it is probably a combination of defective brain chemistry which is inherited plus some bad experiences as a child.

As Nons, our problem is that we're patient to a fault with them, we take their crap and forgive them time and time again and work on the assumption that they'll see the light and relaize the error of their ways, that if we're just a little kinder and more thoughtful then they'll realize that we're ALWAYS on their side, but of course, they never get it, because they don't learn from their mistakes, they never make mistakes, it is always someone else's fault, and so the dysfunctional dance goes on and on.

Their perception is off, but their intent is spot on. That is the problem.

Adolf Hitler was supposed to be a BPD. Are you surprised?

B2         

             

[NewLifeforHGG]

This is something I used to struggle with.

Cap'n mirrored my beliefs so I thought that we had the same value system. No cheating, lying or stealing. But in truth he doesn't really have a value system.

I have met people I liked but our values and morals were so different that I couldn't be close friends with them because I knew we would clash eventually.

I can't say what is right or wrong. I can only say what is right for MY life or wrong for MY life.

My perceptions and my values are connected.

I think I was trying to change him but what I know now is that I will no longer believe 100% of what comes out of someone's mouth. I will want to see what their actions tell me.

I agree PD. BPs mean to hurt. When they do they go straight for the jugular. Crazy or not they have intent to inflict pain when they say hurtful things. I have seen it with the multiple Bps I have known.

Since they perceive slights were none exists they seem to come out of nowhere. The Non is left stunned by the onslaught. We feel blind-sided.

But if you look closer at the disorder you see that they think the problem is you and that you are the mean one.

Cap'n is always telling me how mean I am after I don't give in or ignore his behavior.

[PDQuick]

Our exes were definitely lashing out at us. They were definitely trying to hurt us, and they succeeded only too well. We suffered a great deal of pain that was deliberately inflicted inflicted by our bpso. Remember too that our bpsos study us well, they get to know our weaknesses, and when the time comes, they use that information, information we have given to them, against us in the most heartless fashion. So it is not correct to work on the basis that a Borderline means no harm. Quite the contrary.

Ok B2, lets kick these tires. Again, this is in my experience and my opinion. This quote rings true when I confronted her about her actions. All of this is so true. But when the action that I comfronted her about actually happened, in its beginning, I dont think she had me in mind at all. She was doing what she wanted, without me in mind. Only when confronted with the subject, and the realization that it hurt me did this happen. Can you see my point?

The question to ask is why do they do this? The trite answer is that they are nuts. A more complete answer is that their sense, or perception, of reality is off. They are delusional. They sense something in your manner or behavior, or imagine completely that you are not on their side, and so if you're not on their side then you must be on the other side. They feel lied to, deceived, manipulated, let down, betrayed, and so they retaliate. It doesn't matter that you haven't done any of those things to them. All that maters to them is that that is the way they feel at the moment. And to a Borderline, feelings count. Forget about cool calm logical untwisted thinking. When they are triggered, all that goes out the window.

So in all reality, their befiefs are different than ours. They feel fine at the time of the action, then again, when confronted, they lash out because we dont agree.

They feel hurt by you, and so they hurt you. As Joanna said, their splitting mechanism enables them to act in the most hurtful fashion possible because at the time they really really hate you. And in their mind, at the time, they feel entirely justified in doing so. And so it is easy for them to act cruelly, because in their mind you have been cruel to them. Of course, at a later point in time they may feel differently, and there is lots in the literature about a BPD feeling badly about hurting someone, once they have calmed down, and then their sense of shame kicks in, and then comes all the lovely over the top can't do enough nice things for you type behavior. Borderlines see people as all good or all bad. Their behavior towards you simply relfects how they are feeling about you at any given moment in time. It doesn't mean they are justified for thinking you're either very great or very horrible, it just means that's the way they feel.

Pretty good definition of BPD. Dont you think? Its the reaction, not the action that sets them apart, after all, the actions might be acceptable to some, and not to others, depends on who they are with.

Why are they delusional? No easy answer there except that it is probably a combination of defective brain chemistry which is inherited plus some bad experiences as a child.

Maybe not delusional, just different lifestyle and opinions than ours. The reactions are delusional.

As Nons, our problem is that we're patient to a fault with them, we take their crap and forgive them time and time again and work on the assumption that they'll see the light and relaize the error of their ways, that if we're just a little kinder and more thoughtful then they'll realize that we're ALWAYS on their side, but of course, they never get it, because they don't learn from their mistakes, they never make mistakes, it is always someone else's fault, and so the dysfunctional dance goes on and on.

Ok B2, we have as much chance of changing them to our beliefs, as they do changing us to theirs. So here is the real dirt of the matter, what is it in us, thats keeps us beating our heads against the wall here? Why cant we see that? Why do we devalue ourselves so much as to think that we dont deserve the same as they do? After all, the choice is still ours. We stay, and try to change them, or go and try to find a more compatible mate.

Their perception is off, but their intent is spot on. That is the problem.

Their perception is different than ours, and the intent, in its origin, is all about them, in its aftermath, you are right, it is hurtful. Thank you, and I hope I didnt rustle your feathers here.

[crystal]

So really, it comes down to the choice of partner. Do they share the same moral belief system that I do? I think none of us have really consciencially have thought about this, and probed our potential partners about this. If you were like me, I did assume that they were like me. And I got hurt because of that.

Very true for me as well.  I made some assumptions. I read what he was saying the way I wanted to. And, I really think this is true, he said what I wanted to hear.  This probably occurs in all falling-in-love relationships.  But it is all exaggerated in a BPD relationship.  Their perceptions and values change dramatically and rapidly. And the lies the tell themselves/us to match our needs/values/perception are big and convincing.

You talk about a core moral belief system. The inner ethical compass that drives us to do the "right thing" even if it has some negative consequences for us.  The touchstone of uor lives. The rock of belief that allows us to continue on even when it seems to hard and pointless.  For, me, a major anchor in my life.

Watching my stbxh all these years I have come to wonder. Does he HAVE a core moral belief system? I really wonder.  or is it simply "prevent pain" which is a survival instinct, not a moral compass.

Crystal

[PDQuick]

Crystal, that is so true. I think all BPD's lie about their beliefs and morals. Hence Mirroring. But, their actions are a dead give away. We all have seen it, and we all, including myself, looked the other way. I guess the real learning here is to figure out why we looked the other way, and work on that. Also, unlock our skills of seeing is believing, rather than believing what comes out of someones mouth.

[bewildered2]

PDQuick,

What was the action of hers that you confronted her about?

And they are deluded. BPD is all about the way a person perceives, behaves, and relates to others. Their strange behavior is the evidence of their delusion. Their input (perception of reality) is wrong so their output (behavior) is inappropriate (either too good or too bad). 

We carry on with them because we believe that they will get it, that they will realize the error of their ways, and come to trust us, and consequently return the love we give them in an approapriate way. We give up when we understand that this won't happen, it can't happen, and we know the reason why it won't happen, that they are seriously mentally ill.   

The only person who has rustled my feathers is my ex-bpgf, and now that she isn't around they're looking very very unrustled! So worry not!

b2

[PDQuick]

B2, pick any of thousands of actions that I confronted her about. They range from cheating, to filling my brand new covertible with trash to be hauled to the dump. When I say filling it, I mean top down, full, with only a place for me to sit, and no hope of closing the top. I was out working with my pick up truck.

Just those two examples. Cheating, each time she did it, she was doing what she wanted to do, and had no thoughts about me, and how it would affect me if I found out. She did what she wanted to do. it isnt in my moral code to do that. I have had many opportunities to do this while we were together, but I didnt, because I didnt beleive in it. She did, because she beleives in it, and it is what she wanted. Only when I confronted her about it did the problem really start. She went nuts. Now, I know, because of her action of lying about it, that she knew that I thought it was wrong.

The Mustang Cobra convertible filled with trash. She wanted the trash to be taken to the dump. She actually thought she was doing the right thing. What? Why would I fight about it? It disturbed me so much that after I dropped off the trash, I took that Mustang to the car lot, and traded it for a Dodge truck. She was so pissed because she liked the Mustang convertible. But I wasnt going to let her ruin another car, especially that one. When I confronted her about it, all hell broke loose.

I caught hell for trading it without talking to her. It was my car. Besides, its ok for her to buy a house without me knowing it, but I cant trade a car that she is attempting to ruin. HUH?

I belive their belief system is different than ours, not neccessarily wrong, just different. It is what they do when confronted that really is the difference. If we are caught doing something wrong, even if we didnt realize it is wrong, we will accept it, apologize and move on. They wont. There will be hell to pay. I think it is the reactions that they exhibit that is the problem. And again its not about us, so why do we take it so personally?

We carry on with them because we believe that they will get it, that they will realize the error of their ways, and come to trust us, and consequently return the love we give them in an approapriate way. We give up when we understand that this won't happen, it can't happen, and we know the reason why it won't happen, that they are seriously mentally ill.  

Does this sound like we are in the wrong? Are we trying to beat our beliefs into them? Its almost like taking a devout Muslim, and trying to change them onto Christianity. Each side thinks they are right, and would be trying to convince each other of their own beliefs. Seems to me like there has been an ongoing war for centuries over this same topic. Kinda like our past relationships. An ongoing war. When do we stop trying to fight, and seek out a person with the same beliefs? Instead of dropping one battle, and going on to another battle.

I will say that my biggest fear is getting into another relationship like this, and this is my thought to try to stop myself, and maybe a few of you as well. Plus this is my natuaral train of thoughts here, and Im trying to shoot it down, or prove to myself that it flies.

[elphaba]

Well PD, not only have you brought alot of humor to this board but many thought provoking posts as well.  You are growing and learning and taking a giant leap forward in looking inward to find answers to "why"...

For me I've gone back and forth on my thinking as to whether DB's intentions were to hurt me or if he is simply incapable of having any understanding of how his actions affected me (or anyone else)...there definately were times/incidents that he ABSOULETLY meant for it to hurt me, badly.  There were times when he meant to cause turmoil/hurt/pain for me and for my kids - it was done deliberately and malicously.  But, for the most part I honestly believe that the "disconnect" in the BPD brain simply did not allow him to regulate the emotions involved or understand the effect his actions might have.

DB has continued to claim that going into this relationship his "intentions" were good, perhaps I can believe that in some sense, he is just completely incapable of the actions necessary to fulfill those intentions.  He does not know how to be in a relationship, does not know how to communicate effectively and in no way shape or form can he EVER put the needs of another ahead of his own...he can only see the moment, only act on his own needs.  Even with himself, he seems to have little or no ability to take care of himself or take responsibility for anything, he has been enabled his entire life, he knows no consequences for his actions or lack of actions.

As you have pointed out PD, it is when he was confronted that there was a real problem, he was used to there not ever being confrontations, that everyone around him would simply accept it, walk on eggshells and he could continue to exhibit the behavior knowing that no one would do anything about it...and then came me...I tolorated so much, allowed way too much bad behavior, I enabled and LET him do what he did to me...up until a point and that point was OUR breaking point.  He could not accept being called on the carpet for his shtshow...the fight/flight response...

I have evaluated my own perceptions/expectations ad nauseum...and that of course has led me to ponder whether I should have any expectations at all...because in my life, even with my very limited expectations, I have continually been let down...by my parents, my choices in SO, my friends, etc... for me that has been very sad...I've never expected very much, simple needs...yet, I stand before you all with tears that perhaps I caused myself with my expectations. 

So my fears lie in my expectations, what can I legitimately expect from others?   Or is it that I need to live life without expecations except for those that I have of myself, where I want to be, how I want to love, what will make ME happy...

[aames]

I believe you're leaving a major factor out of the equasion here and that is :

Lack of Object Constancy... i.e. your BPD ex may have held the same beliefs as you do, at least part of the time; however she wasn't able to hold onto those beliefs consistantly when it came down to it -

Often times pd's (BP's especially) look to outside cues / people to tell them who they are and what they believe at any given moment (thus the mirroring aspect).

I think of it as an unconcious manifestation of "The grass is always greener"

Or -- "Ohhh! Shiny!"   -- an emotional ADHD?  They constantly try on different "skins" (moral, ethical, personality, etc.) because they have no "skin" of their own.


As far as the NPD Mary/Harold scenerio:  your exapmple doesn't really fly for me - and I'll tell you why:

If Harold is NPD then he doesn't love Mary to begin with.  Mary is not a person to Harold - she is an object.  A primary source of Narcissistic Supply. 

She is there as an instrument for his edification only, (as is any other person/ object). And her happiness was never a consideration to begin with. 

Humans are interchangeable and the narcissist anyhow does not distinguish one individual from another. To him they are all inanimate parts of "his audience" whose job is to reflect his false self to him. This generates a perpetual and permanent cognitive dissonance



   -- Sam Vaknin

So there is no concious plot to deprive Mary of happiness. Although the opportunity to manipulate her emotions may hold some appeal:

Mary's "feelings" represent a threat to Harold and therefore he MUST negate them / abuse them / contort and control them for purposes of his own survival.

The narcissist equates emotions with weakness. He regards the sentimental and the emotional with contempt. He looks down on the sensitive and the vulnerable. He derides and despises the dependent and the loving. He mocks expressions of compassion and passion. He is devoid of empathy. He is so afraid of his True Self that he would rather demean it all than admit to his own faults and "soft spots".

-- Sam Vaknin

Harold cannot consider Mary's feelings - he is incapable of it: and while his infidelity is supremely selfish, it is also a-moral because Harold has no moral core. 

[Jewls]

So my fears lie in my expectations, what can I legitimately expect from others?   Or is it that I need to live life without expecations except for those that I have of myself, where I want to be, how I want to love, what will make ME happy...

I've learned that I have to keep my expectations of others somewhat basic, simple.  I've also learned to pick and choose which qualities are MOST important to me in a new SO.  After 22 years with stink weed (20 married), I KNOW that I want someone who is, for the most part (come on, now, have you met anyone who hasn't told a white lie or two?), honest.  This is a must for me.  I practice honesty, I preach honesty to my children, and I darn sure expect it now.  If someone doesn't meet my expectations, as simple as they are, then they don't need to be in my life.  I've learned what happens when I try to change someone.  I'm not willing to go through that again.

Elph touched on something that I can totally relate to.  Stink weed's "intentions" were good in a number of situations including our marriage/family, but he didn't have the capacity to follow through with his promises, AND he is fully incapable, as is DB, of putting anyone's needs before his own.  When confronted, stink weed wouldn't accept an ounce of responsibility for any of his actions UNLESS it was something positive that would cause him to be recognized.  In most of those cases, he used someone else's ideas (usually mine) or intentions (usually mine) and took complete ownership.

When stink weed cheated, was he thinking of me?  I believe he was, but was justifying what he was doing in his mind to ease his guilt (if we had sex more often/if we were getting along/if she wasn't being such a hateful ___/if she was meeting MY needs more, I wouldn't have to do this).  Was that his reality?  Yes, but did he also know what he was doing was wrong and against my wishes?  Yes.  How do I know this?  It's simple.  I TOLD HIM IT WASN'T ACCEPTABLE.

I have seen him "put the screws to" many people he has done business with.  He knows what's morally right, we had many heated discussions about right and wrong, but he CHOSE to go the other route because of his warped perception of what kind of person he was retaliating against and what they had "done" to HIM and therefore considered it justified.

Same thing with your Mustang, Mr. Quick.  She knew it was wrong to fill your car full of trash, but she chose to do it anyway.  It's WRONG any way you look at it.  That's not just my perception or yours.  Her intent was to make you feel some sort of pain.

So, Mr. Quick, I do feel, to an extent, that they do have us in mind when they are doing things that hurt us.  The difference is, they justify these actions by painting us, or whoever, black to make it FEEL right.  We react to the facts, for the most part, and they react to what they're feeling at the time.

We could discuss this forever, it's a very interesting post.

IMHO,

Jewls

[Jewls]

RIGHT ON THE MONEY, AAMES!

Jewls

[Jewls]

Thoughts keep jumping in my head...

PD we, as nons, continue to excuse their behavior and sugar-coat it.  The fact is, unfortunately, that they are truly out for themselves, nobody else...

Jewls

[PDQuick]

Interesting Aames. Ill have to chew on that awhile. Great thoughts though, and I appreciate them. I am still of the belief that they love until challenged and called on the carpet, then, they disconnect. I also believe that they dont change their subcore, just the core and its outward perceptionns. I think they always have been, and always will be totally about themselves, with no consideration to others. Now with saying that, I believe their "love" is quite different than ours.

Elphie, my dear sweet Elphie.

I have evaluated my own perceptions/expectations ad nauseum...and that of course has led me to ponder whether I should have any expectations at all...because in my life, even with my very limited expectations, I have continually been let down...by my parents, my choices in SO, my friends, etc... for me that has been very sad...I've never expected very much, simple needs...yet, I stand before you all with tears that perhaps I caused myself with my expectations. 

So my fears lie in my expectations, what can I legitimately expect from others?   Or is it that I need to live life without expecations except for those that I have of myself, where I want to be, how I want to love, what will make ME happy...

First of all, you didnt choose your parents. They chose you. Well actually, they made you. You didnt pick them, but you do have to deal with the tools and emotions that they have supplied you.

Have you really demanded your expectations? I mean really demanded them, or have you cast them out there and hoped that they were met? And if they werent, did you say, well ok, but I really wanted that. Were you ready to end something because your expectations werent being met, or were you ready to end it because they werent being met, and you grew so tired of fighting that it wasnt worth it anymore? Big difference there.

Think of us like starving people in a 3rd world country. The bread truck arrives and we are all swarming the truck. I think that we are the ones that "understand" that the women and children need to eat first. Then we look around and see someone that looks "hungrier" than we do, then another, then another. Then, when it is our time, there is no bread left. We go through life "understanding" and dont get it. All the people at that truck are as hungry as we are. The reason they got fed and we didnt is because they put themselves first, above all others, and we didnt. Elphie, jump up to that bread truck and start demanding what you need, not what you want, you can wait for that, but what you need to survive. You expectations are just as valid as anyone elses, except for one thing. They are yours, and mean nothing to anyone else but you. So if you are waiting for someone other than yourself to give them to you, honey, I hope you have the patience of a saint. Demand people treat you the way that you want to be treated, and stop at nothing to get it. If that means cutting people loose in your life to do it, Let it be written, let it be done!

[PDQuick]

Jewls, love you, but I have to disagree slightly. I think they do everything with the intent of self gratification. I dont think they think of us. Even Stink weeds cheating and his buisness dealings. He did those things because he wanted to, no other reason. Then when called on his actions, he tried to justify those things by attacking you, and the people he did buisness with. After all, he has some recognizance of our reality. He said those things to try to justify our world, not his. In his world, everything was ok until you expressed your discontent. Then its a game of why he did it to you and them in the only way he knows how. Berating you and them. I think they honestly believe that logic will work on us, and can you blame them, it actually did work because we didnt leave them. Now when it becomes apparent that we have had enough, and are standing our ground, and not budging, the black paint comes out. That is their way of protecting their reality. He is saying, well if she wont join me, Ill black her out. Im done with her because she doesnt support me anymore.

Dont you think that its strange that the linear lines of how long the relationship is, is in direct proportion to how much sht we either put up with, or they were able to hide? The quicker you call them to the carpet and stand your ground, the quicker the black paint comes out? Then, after a while for you to get to miss them, they test you to see if you are ready to take it some more. They are standing there with a hidden white paint brush behind their back asking, are you ready for me to come back? Are you ready for some more?

[elphaba]

My parents, I could write a book on the lousy tools and emotions they supplied me with...Blind faith, hypocracy, religion as a crutch, fear, tainted love...

With DB - it was when I did DEMAND that my expectations be met that things ended.  He could not possibly meet them, didn't want to even try...so it was like expecting to get blood from a stone.

The quicker you call them to the carpet and stand your ground, the quicker the black paint comes out

Yes, I have in life allowed those hungrier than me to feed first and taken only barely what I needed to survive...I have made others needs so much more important than my own...I have sacrificed my own happiness and well being for the sake of others...thinking that made me a good person.

I think though PD - this is exactly it

life without expecations except for those that I have of myself, where I want to be, how I want to love, what will make ME happy...

it is only when we depend on others to meet our expectations that we end up sorely dissapointed.

I have on my webpage a quote talking about how I am choosing to live my life now and that I am choosing a path that will lead me to the happiness that I deserve and that I will rid my life of those who do not bring positive energy into my life...I have no need for that anymore...it is my time now, my time, my life...

[Jewls]

Yes, you're right, he did those things because he wanted to.  :)id my face pop in his mind as he was doing them?  Yep, but like you said, he took his paint brush and blacked me out.  F*ck her!

We put up with a lot of ___, didn't we, Mr. Quick?  It REALLY got stink weed's goat when I stopped taking it.  He wielded the biggest black paintbrush I'd ever seen.  He truly couldn't believe I had walked away for good.  The object of his ultimate control was gone.

Jewls

[PDQuick]

Dry your eyes, and move forward Elph, because, again, in my opinion, and I could be wrong, I think you are finally on the right road to happytown USA. I think we all need to start taking care of ourselves. The power lies within us for happiness, yet we have been giving that power to someone else. That person has their own agendas and happiness, and doesnt know what to do with our happiness. Take the power from those who dont know what to do with it, and give it back to the person, the only person it belongs to, us!

[PDQuick]

Hey Jewls...



Bingo

[Felicity]

Have you really demanded your expectations? I mean really demanded them, or have you cast them out there and hoped that they were met? And if they werent, did you say, well ok, but I really wanted that. Were you ready to end something because your expectations werent being met, or were you ready to end it because they werent being met, and you grew so tired of fighting that it wasnt worth it anymore? Big difference there.

Think of us like starving people in a 3rd world country. The bread truck arrives and we are all swarming the truck. I think that we are the ones that "understand" that the women and children need to eat first. Then we look around and see someone that looks "hungrier" than we do, then another, then another. Then, when it is our time, there is no bread left. We go through life "understanding" and dont get it. All the people at that truck are as hungry as we are. The reason they got fed and we didnt is because they put themselves first, above all others, and we didnt. Elphie, jump up to that bread truck and start demanding what you need, not what you want, you can wait for that, but what you need to survive. You expectations are just as valid as anyone elses, except for one thing. They are yours, and mean nothing to anyone else but you. So if you are waiting for someone other than yourself to give them to you, honey, I hope you have the patience of a saint. Demand people treat you the way that you want to be treated, and stop at nothing to get it. If that means cutting people loose in your life to do it, Let it be written, let it be done!

Wow..just...wow.  What a great example.

[csandra]

Good morning.

I sure hope that all of you are in a different time zone.  I can barely think clear enough to process this great thread. 

Yes, we put up with a lot.  The end for me, came when I finally drew the line in the sand...you know the old "fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice, shame on me(and actually I carried it out to fool me 273 times).  It scares me sometimes to think of how I lowered my expectations when I saw that he wasn't going to change.

OK, OK...still can't think but I do need to say one thing.  I have to believe that I can/will have expectations and that they will be met if I ever meet someone with which to share my life.  I'm with Jewls and the whole honesty bit...no sarcasm, no innuendos, no gameplaying within my own living space.  I too spent my entire life meeting other people's needs(that were always more critical than my own) UNTIL I met my uNPDstbxh. Before i met my husband, and for about the next 16 years, I never trusted ANYONE (including my parents) more than a 6/10.

Really, this pedestal routine can be a pretty good deal.  I took my life for granted.  I didn't fully realize that my position was so tied into how it made him feel about himself.  And, after knowing and loving this man for over 20 years, I have NEVER known him to treat anyone with as much contempt as he now treats me(in between confusing lapses of ingratiating kindness).

It's strange how once you set yourself up as some kind of Joan of Arc for the world, people will resent you for trying to state your own needs.  Just last week, while in the hospital, my brother whom I love dearly and trust as much as anyone(right now) mouthed the words "be nice" as he left me with our parents (who were really getting on my nerves).  Now my mom is hurt and upset because I won't let her drive me to appt to get my staples out but wouldn't help out at my house(because my teens should be taking care of everything) but left to go pick my sister's dog up from the groomer and take another grandchild to a piano lesson. 

Anyway, it's a privilege to know all of you and to have you share your innermost thoughts and feelings.  I need more coffee.

[bewildered2]

aames makes a great point about object constancy, or lack thereof.

borderlines have a very hard time remembering good things about someone, especially someone close to them, when that person is out of sight. it is the reason they sometimes carry pictures or little objects to remind them of the other person when they are separated.

so, they can't do it.

this can often explain the cheating. if you're out of sight you're out of mind. throw in some booze, and a good looking guy/gal and presto it happens, very easily in fact. check it out in the literature. promiscuity and unsafe sex are hallmarks of some borderlines.

i seriously doubt that your gf thought it was ok to cheat on you. she may have pretended that she thought it was ok, especially if you caught her at it, because what else is she supposed to do, admit she has a bad character? no, she comes up with some BPD twisted thinking to excuse what she knows is crappy behavior.

b2         

[Jewls]

i seriously doubt that your gf thought it was ok to cheat on you. she may have pretended that she thought it was ok, especially if you caught her at it, because what else is she supposed to do, admit she has a bad character? no, she comes up with some BPD twisted thinking to excuse what she knows is crappy behavior.

Thanks for putting it into the words I couldn't find, b2.  My point, exactly.

Jewls

[PDQuick]

In order to admit that she has a bad character, she would have to think it was wrong. I talked to her ex husband, and the similarities were amazing. The only difference between me and him was that he walked in on her cheating once, and he was discharged from the air force because an officers wife walked in on my ex, and the officers husband. She has cheated probably 25 times. I never caught her red handed, but know of many. She even admitted to most of them after we split, when I found out she was getting married. Then, she wanted to cheat on her husband after 6 days of being married with me. Of course, I didnt do it, but really, with that kind of track record, do you really think she thinks it is wrong? I dont. I think she sees it as ok, as long as she is not caught. She recognizes that we think it is wrong, that is why she hides it. But for her to do it this much, she has to view it as ok.

[NewLifeforHGG]

I disagree a bit PD.

I think they do it is wrong which is why they hide it. They KNOW it is wrong because they know it isn't accepted in society. They wouldn't bother to lie if they didn't know it. I have seen Cap'n disparage someone else for doing the exact same thing he has done or does. Of course he has a million excuses why it was alright for HIM to do it but he inherently knows the action is wrong.

I have seen brief, very brief, moments when he will say-I know it is wrong but I don't know why I do it.

He will usually blame the victim by saying that they made him do the wrong thing.

Society has very clear rules and mores. Everyone knows lying, cheating and stealing are bad. But with BPD they justify the unacceptable behavior instead of taking responsibility. It doesn't mean they don't know it was wrong it just means they don't see it as their fault.

[PDQuick]

Ok, I can accept that they know it is wrong. With saying that, I have to conclude that they think they are above the law, and laws dont pertain to them.

[bewildered2]

HGG makes an excellent point.

Remember, if you haven't been caught at something then you make up a lie to cover yourself in case something comes out later that could make you look bad.

If you have been caught then you go to plan B, which is to come up with some crappy excuse that makes sense to you (the BPD) using the classic BPD tool, twisted thinking. So they believe it because because to face the facts and take some personal responsibility ain't in the BPD's armory.

We're the idiots for buying their lies when our inner voices tell us they're lies, and not truths.

And if we Nons had a higher opinion of ourselves we'd walk out on them after they've had their proverbial three strikes, but we don't, and that's our pathology.    

So we facilitate a BPD's warped reality and even help make it real for them because we allow ourselves to be convinced that their "reality" is reality , when it isn't.

B2    

 

[Jewls]

I have seen brief, very brief, moments when he will say-I know it is wrong but I don't know why I do it.

He will usually blame the victim by saying that they made him do the wrong thing.

Society has very clear rules and mores. Everyone knows lying, cheating and stealing are bad. But with BPD they justify the unacceptable behavior instead of taking responsibility. It doesn't mean they don't know it was wrong it just means they don't see it as their fault.

Same here, perfect.

Ok, I can accept that they know it is wrong. With saying that, I have to conclude that they think they are above the law, and laws dont pertain to them.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head.

Stink weed will go through great lengths to try to prove his lie is true.  It's unbelievable the energy he will put into it.  He has stolen from his family (me/kids), lied and cheated, and to this day, won't admit it or take one ounce of responsibility for his actions. 

We're the idiots for buying their lies when our inner voices tell us they're lies, and not truths.

Yes, I look back and just shake my head.

Jewls

[aames]

Ok, I can accept that they know it is wrong. With saying that, I have to conclude that they think they are above the law, and laws dont pertain to them.

This is closer again to the NPD dynamic of entittlement.

There are one set of rules for everyone else, and an entirely different set of rules for the Narcissist.

NPD's are obsessed with fantasies of ideal love, power, prestige and feel that they are above ordinary rules of conduct (fidelity, truth telling etc.) The BPD might commit similar behaviors, but are not so much wrapped up in the entittlement factor as they exhibit odd, illogical arguments and scattered thought processes to justify their actions.

Example:

My former uNPDbf felt that cheating was wrong; he looked down on anyone who slept around outside their primary relationships - and he was especially disgusted with sexual scandals as they occured with politicians, because he felt this was an unforgivable weakness in people who otherwise weilded great deal power - which he admired greatly.   "I cannot condone cheating at any time" he would say...and often cite examples of various people / celebrities he was disgusted with because of their sexual infidelities.

Simultaneously - this very same man felt completely entittled (also compelled) to sleep with anyone he wanted to - at any time, regardless of whether or not he was in a supposed 'exclusive' relationship.  When confronted about his infidelities, his first response was denial, quickly followed by a defiant "I don't answer to anyone but God - that is the only person I fear".   - again I highly doubt that, since I think he's still pissed at God for being smarter than he is... but that's besides the point...But clearly the "standards of conduct" he applied to eveyone else were simply not applicable to him.

A person with BPD may have such an intense fear of abandonment that they act out sexually - in effect pre-empting being cheated on / abandoned by cheating (or leaving) first (and often).  And then blaming the primary partner for their own acting out. (twisted thinking)

One of the more common projections are cases where a BP woman has filed charges of domestic violence against her partner to divert attention from / cover up her own sexual transgressions.

[Jewls]

My former uNPDbf felt that cheating was wrong; he looked down on anyone who slept around outside their primary relationships - and he was especially disgusted with sexual scandals as they occured with politicians, because he felt this was an unforgivable weakness in people who otherwise weilded great deal power - which he admired greatly.   "I cannot condone cheating at any time" he would say...and often cite examples of various people / celebrities he was disgusted with because of their sexual infidelities.

Simultaneously - this very same man felt completely entittled (also compelled) to sleep with anyone he wanted to - at any time, regardless of whether or not he was in a supposed 'exclusive' relationship.  When confronted about his infidelities, his first response was denial, quickly followed by a defiant "I don't answer to anyone but God - that is the only person I fear".   - again I highly doubt that, since I think he's still pissed at God for being smarter than he is... but that's besides the point...But clearly the "standards of conduct" he applied to eveyone else were simply not applicable to him.

A person with BPD may have such an intense fear of abandonment that they act out sexually - in effect pre-empting being cheated on / abandoned by cheating (or leaving) first (and often).  And then blaming the primary partner for their own acting out. (twisted thinking)

This describes stink weed and his line of thinking.  He is a definite BPD/NPD combination which makes it practically impossible to get him to take responsibility for ANYTHING, especially the acts of cheating, visiting strip clubs, and spending our life savings on another woman - anything socially "unacceptable."  He justified all of it without actually admitting to it.  ("I only did what I thought was right for my family."

PD, does your ex exhibit any narcissistic behavior?

Another point made by, I believe b2, about the BPDs trying on different skins really struck a note with me.  It explains why stink weed adapted certain behaviors/beliefs of whomever he was "hanging with" at any given time.  It would irritate me.  His current gf is the type of woman that he abhorred the entire time I was with him (22 years).  Now, he has taken on her opinions, manner of speaking, way of dress, etc.  The transformation was bizarre, but now I get it.

Jewls

[spamlady]

I think the NPD makes them feel "entitled" to ignore the rules.

The BPD causes them to lie, and--if caught--to shift the blame onto us, ie, "I wouldn't have been unfaithful if you had been giving me what I needed."

Combined, it's a deadly recipe for infidelity.

spam

[NewLifeforHGG]

I think the twisted thinking is the hardest thing to grasp before you understand what is going on.

Cap'n would twist the life out of a situation. Deep down I have inklings that he was full of it but I couldn't keep up. Sometimes I would believe what he said.

I watch the way he parks illegally and then blames the parking police when he gets a ticket or he will eat food in this cafe where we go to where you pay on your way out and he often never pays. This is more of his NPD side. He feels like the rules are for the little people.

At the same time if I confront him he says that he has paid plenty of times and that the cafe owes him a few free meals.

It is so bizarre.

Jewels-the different skins fit Cap'n to a T. He will make a new friend, put them on a pedestal and then dress like them or start adopting their style of speech and outlook. Very strange.

[Jewls]

HGG, isn't it?  And frustrating, as well.  You never know who you're talking to!

[NewLifeforHGG]

I know. I keep walking through the door to some man who has changed his world views yet another time. :

I do not respect him at all.