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Author Topic: FAQ: Did she ever love me? [romantic partners]  (Read 6860 times)
rosannadanna
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« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2011, 02:11:01 PM »

Numb4life07, what about my ex, who was in therapy during our relationship and knew what his problems were and he dumped me anyway?  I guess I wasn't worth staying with, even though I was reading all the books, using the communication skills, basically doing head stands for him?  My ex wasn't a rager.  He was soft spoken and "sensitive".  He was seemingly self-aware.  He was seemingly reasonable when he wasn't being triggered and we could work things out.  Despite all of the nifty things that he was, he used and manipulated my feelings to get his attachment needs met, then he dropped me like a hot potato.

Many of us nons have been dropped not just for the typical "on to the next one" reason, but b/c the pwBPD supposedly gained insight and wanted to get "healthy" and couldn't do it with us b/c the relationship (and us) is unhealthy.  My ex said he wanted to work on his stuff and I was responsible for "cleaning up my own mess".  Can you say instant detachment?  Nons are deluding themselves if they think that their BPDpartners are going to stay, really stay, with them after they have been exposed.  The fear of exposure wins out over the love they felt for you everytime.

R
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« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2011, 05:37:08 PM »

rosannadanna --- I am really sorry to hear about your situation.  I don't believe borderlines can all be categorized though.  We are all different and I am so sorry for what your ex did to you.  I do not believe that all borderlines will leave once they have been exposed, however, I have been exposed and I am working very hard to make everything right in my relationship. But I wish you the best of luck in healing from your past relationship.
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Skip
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« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2011, 06:37:25 PM »

Many of us nons have been dropped not just for the typical "on to the next one" reason, but b/c the pwBPD supposedly gained insight and wanted to get "healthy" and couldn't do it with us b/c the relationship (and us) is unhealthy.  My ex said he wanted to work on his stuff and I was responsible for "cleaning up my own mess". 

I'm not sure it helps (or is accurate) to generalize.  And it is hard for us to understand the driving force of our partner.

In your case, your ex started his recovery and he jettisoned your relationship.  This is not uncommon in recovery. This often occurs when the recovering party feels that the relationship was unhealthy or too connected to the life he wants to leave behind.  Sometimes this is true and even the therapist will encourage the breakup if the partner is an enabler and caught up in the cycle of conflict. Sometimes this is just unfair and unjustified.

Being on the receiving end of this can be devastating... especially if you were supportive throughout the relationship.

I too am sorry this has been so difficult.

Skippy
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MindfulJavaJoe
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« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2011, 03:11:15 AM »

Being on the receiving end of this can be devastating... especially if you were supportive throughout the relationship.

This was definately me too.   

Having been rejected my uBPDw shared this jem with me "I never loved you, I chose you because you were safe"!

I do not think that this was said to hurt me. I think is was said as a statement of fact.

MJJ

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jalk
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« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2011, 12:13:48 PM »

I just wanted to thank OceanHeart for her post. It is most helpful to hear the other side of the coin. It helps me personally to try to make sense out of all this.
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« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2011, 12:37:37 PM »

What I think I've noticed from what I've read and experienced is that every person BPD or non, is different.  There are nons that can't love and there are BPD's who can't love.  There are nons that can love, and BPDs who can love.  It becomes so easy for us to categorize and over generalize people.  "Oh this person has BPD, they can never love me".  It's likely true that the majority of people with BPD have difficulty with love because it's such a strong emotion and is intertwined with all of the core problems of that person (intimacy, abondonment, etc), but that doesn't make their love any less real, just harder to cope with.

Imagine a normal relationship, no mental illnesses to be involved.  This relationship is going to have arguments, it's going to have jealousy, fear of abandonment, rejection, hurt.  It's also going to have passion, intimacy, caring, and love.  A relationship with a BPD is no different, it has all of these things.  The problem is, someone with BPD has difficulty regulating their emotions, everything is either good or evil.  So while you may love someone greatly, when you are angered or upset that emotion is what takes over your actions.  Then when you are no longer triggered you are back to being happy, or on to the next emotion.

BPDs aren't incapable of anything a non can do.  It's just more difficult to control.  There are also degrees to a BPD.  Just try to remember, yes there are similarities between one person with BPD and another with BPD, but these people are individuals, they all act and behave differently.  They have different areas that trouble them, and different capabilities. 
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Freedom311

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« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2011, 01:16:44 AM »

"After the passion of new love subsides they become bored, often moving on to a new partner.  If they continue in the relationship instead of deepening concern and communication, there ensues a struggle for control.  The arena of this often violent struggle may include time, money, sex, fidelity, spiritual beliefs, children, or physical and emotional distance.  The centerpiece of the struggle is the threat of abandonment."

This really helped. Fantastic description. My xBPDgf once said after the relationship, "I loved you more than anything, you were the best time ever, but everyday of our relationship was torture."

I think this is the dynamic described here. She constantly struggled with me for power of *something* (marriage, commitment, more attention, deeper actions of protection?) and when I didn't do them 100% perfectly, it escalated the fear cycles.
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kem

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« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2011, 04:18:47 AM »

"immature love is exhausting, mature love is energizing."

-david thorpe
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kem

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« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2011, 04:33:21 AM »

like some people have said here, thank you, thank you, thank you for this thread and dialogue.  thanks to everyone who has contributed.  the comments here have been very insightful and intelligent.  it is helping me understand more fully love and BPD, and love from a pwBPD's perspective.  it has been tremendously helpful to my own recovery.
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« Reply #59 on: January 05, 2012, 06:09:03 PM »

Hi there.  I've not read through all of these posts, but there's been a couple of comments near the beginning and end that have struck me. 

There was a reference early in these posts about the love of a BPD being like in the movies.  All the movies my xBPDbf said he liked were the 'chick flicks' the slushy romances.  In fact, he gave me a movie once, where the script was exactly like how he described our relationship (all part of the process of beig hooked in...).  I made a joke about it, and he said it was an interesting co-incidence that proved we were destined to be together forever.  I said well really I think you watched this before you met me, but that was a very sweet thing you said.  And I meant it.

I think his reference points were the fantasy-like stories of love.  This was always how he expected it to be.  That each bust would be the one that proved that we needed to be together.  That he had to keep testing the love.  He couldn't just believe it was what it seemed to be.  And maybe it never was...we talked for so many hours about his feelings and emotions.  And the only sense I got from him was that he had no idea what to do with them.  He felt them, but didn't know how to process them.  He'd learned to be very passive as a child and this was his pattern of behaviour in adult life.

Stuff said on the forum elsewhere about how actions are important, not words in our situation.  And I believe there are many viewpoints on whether a person is defined by their thoughts or their actions.  What I always wanted to make him realise was that failure to act was an act in itself...left to the fates, granted.  But it seemed to be his way of making sure that all of his perceived failures were of some higher power's making.  He was merely a victim.

I knew by the end I was fascinated by that conflict of intensity of emotion versus lack of action, I hurt with his inability to process...and it was no longer the right place to be in a relationship.  But I will always love him with all my heart because there was a beatifully delicate soul inside, and whether it was make believe or not, it was who he chose to be when he was with me, and he made me smile everyday...until he thought he could never be good enough for me (and off he went dragging his huge burden of loss around with him forevermore...dramatically...until the next one comes along...).

I also know he'll have forgotten me long before I have forgotten him.

Thank you to all your posts...it's such a help to read 300000000 different versions of my story.  To have somewhere to try and sort out all the car crashes he left in my head, when all my friends and family have tired of the subject long ago...I bore myself sometimes!
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« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2013, 02:29:24 PM »

Not even sure if you are still reading these responses, but I want to say a couple of things.  First, this is a really beautiful description.  I am a stepmom to kids with a BPDmom, and though I am clearly in a highly triggering role, I have been able in crisis to offer BPD mom unconditional love.  This has been profoundly effective in terms of diffusing crisis. 

I was also struck by how much BPDmom just desperately needed the love I was giving.  I am pretty good at giving love with boundaries.  It is sad for me that because of my role in her life, parenting her kids with her ex for half of the time,  she cannot really receive this from me, and  I do not really have the energy or desire to pursue this opportunity.  Because I think I would be good at it if she was just an acquaintance.  My father worked on a form of daily, interactive therapy with schizophrenic people that was very effective, and I often feel like a similar model would work well with BPD folk...   but for BPD folk, it would just be being surrounded by people who are willing to be real and loving, with boundaries.  I feel like every time I did this with BPD mom, it was such a huge relief for her. 

The other thing I wanted to ask is that it is interesting the idea of the BPD person (in this case, your former self) feeling intense passion, because I have often been struck by the BPD mom of my SD's expression of passion that it seems very devoid of connection to feeling or physical embodiment, seems very much coming from the "head" rather than the "heart."  Also, seems very disempowered--lots of victimizing words, of self and others, without any real "feeling" statements.  Rarely does BPDmom say, "I am really angry right now!" or make a request; mostly it is "people hate me," in a non passionate, rambling, monologue that goes on and on, sometimes for 6-8 hours, blaming all in her vicinity for hating her, ruining her life, making her want to kill herself, etc.  When confronted, she does yell and say, "I hate you! See, this is what I mean!"  but still never talks about feelings like anger, fear, etc. 

So I am wondering if this resonates with your memory, and where the disconnect is between the "felt" experience of being passionate, and the external perception of lack of feeling or connecting with feeling. 



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oceanheart
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« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2013, 01:09:32 PM »

I am pretty good at giving love with boundaries...    My father worked on a form of daily, interactive therapy with schizophrenic people that was very effective, and I often feel like a similar model would work well with BPD folk...      but for BPD folk, it would just be being surrounded by people who are willing to be real and loving, with boundaries.  I feel like every time I did this with BPD mom, it was such a huge relief for her.

Exactly this! I hope you have found this helpful in dealing with your interactions with your pwBPD, especially since you being the stepmom to her kids must oftentimes be a fraught situation. 

Excerpt
The other thing I wanted to ask is that it is interesting the idea of the BPD person (in this case, your former self) feeling intense passion, because I have often been struck by the BPD mom of my SD's expression of passion that it seems very devoid of connection to feeling or physical embodiment, seems very much coming from the "head" rather than the "heart."  Also, seems very disempowered--lots of victimizing words, of self and others, without any real "feeling" statements.  Rarely does BPDmom say, "I am really angry right now!" or make a request; mostly it is "people hate me," in a non passionate, rambling, monologue that goes on and on, sometimes for 6-8 hours, blaming all in her vicinity for hating her, ruining her life, making her want to kill herself, etc.  When confronted, she does yell and say, "I hate you! See, this is what I mean!"  but still never talks about feelings like anger, fear, etc.

This is a very astute observation, ennie. I had to step away from the computer to fully process it, and I appreciate the chance it gave me for self-reflection (it's all about US for pwBPD   )

I won't go all abstract on the issue, but instead try to respond in a personal way.

Even at 42, with all my years of recovery work, I find it hard to simply say "I am really angry right now". This applies to all emotions, but especially with anger (partially because I am afraid of what I'm capable of when angry). In childhood, my expressions of emotion were ignored, belittled/mocked, and/or used against me, therefore "expressing emotion = unsafe". Passive expression became the only outlet, since emotions need to come out somehow, and thus the martyr/victim stance which is a protective reaction. My temperament leans towards shy so I became more of a waif/hermit pwBPD. Other people with more bold innate temperaments become Queen/witch pwBPD. Both are defensive strategies [not an excuse, just an explanation].

Thank you for the reminder that a huge aspect of healing is in asserting in an adult and respectful way one's emotional needs.

Excerpt
So I am wondering if this resonates with your memory, and where the disconnect is between the "felt" experience of being passionate, and the external perception of lack of feeling or connecting with feeling.

Back to the subject of the workshop - love - I do believe, especially with pwBPD who were victims of childhood sexual abuse, there is dissociation between the feeling and the expression of it. For CSA survivors it is absolutely a defense mechanism to having one's bodily integrity - one's very personhood - violated, this splitting-off of the self. Feelings are so intense they are painful and perhaps to lesson the impact of the feelings [also one of the reasons for self-injury] pwBPD verbally distance themselves from it? Could that be what you are perceiving? I'm not sure I fully answered your question, but I would value any other input.
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Findingmysong723
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« Reply #62 on: April 04, 2013, 08:00:15 PM »

Oceanheart,

I've been following your posts on here for awhile and appreciate all the insight that you bring to all of us on this forum! Thank you!

This topic always gets to me and I've been wondering this for awhile about my ex boyfriend (undiagnosed borderline.) It seems like most people on here have mentioned that their ex's told them they were in love with them all the time. My Ex boyfriend would tell me that he loved me as a person but hadn't fallen in love with me. He would tell me that I needed to give him "my heart." He told me that he wanted to fall in love with me so badly, but hadn't. Told me he hated wanting to feel something he didn't. We've been broken up for a few months now and I don't think he knows what or how to be in love.  Early on in our relationship he told me that he didn't think he had been in love really, maybe only with his first serious relationship. Also, early in the relationship he mentioned that he told me it took awhile for him to open up or something like that...    red flag red flag! I admit that maybe we weren't right for each other, but it's hard to really fall in love with someone when they put you up on a pedestal that you never asked to be put on, just to be thrown off! A mix of push and pull, name calling, blowing up at you when he believes he isn't getting what you deserve, withdrawing affection, the depression, anxiety. I guess I rather have someone not lie to me about feelings they don't really have, but it also makes you feel pretty bad inside when all you did was try to love them the best you could. I guess I get confused why my relationship seemed so different. Almost like instead of telling me he was in love with me all the time, he made it seem like if I only I did this or that he would feel it. Hmm?

During a time in our relationship he wrote me a letter about him trying to figure out why he had been treating me the way he was and how to handle his frustration better. He admitted that he was stressed before he met me and as happy as he was to of met me, his stress got worse. My Ex told me about ways he thought would make him feel better which would make our relationship better and I believe that at that point he wanted to change! He had goals that he wanted for himself, like going back to school, but it seems like he gave up on it, he gave up on himself. Self sabotage, is a very sad thing! I'm not in contact with him so I don't know if he is going to do those things he said he wanted...    

Just for more background on my ex. He is a recovering alcoholic and drug addict, he also had an alcoholic father who was abusive when he was very young. My Ex has made amends with his Dad and has a decent relationship with him now, his dad has changed very much and we spent time with him on many occasions. However, there is animosity under the surface concerning his Dad with him and his immediate family. When I met my Ex Boyfriend he was in AA and therapy (just talk not specifically for Borderline traits) he stopped going to AA after we had been going out for a few months. Also, he stopped therapy because he was feeling "good," and only went back when we broke up the first time. Between the two, I wish he had continued to stay in therapy, I believe if he continued to go when he was feeling good, it would of helped him to understand how to work on keeping himself that way. (well most of the time, since we can't always be happy all the time) Also, my Ex was taking anxiety medication when we were dating and had slowly been decreasing the dosage and he was completely off his medication by the last months of our relationship...    don't think it was the best thing. We dated about 17 months or so, still count when we "broke up," because he were still emotionally connected.

Well, now that I've bored you...    ha. If you have any comments, I would appreciate!

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« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2013, 07:18:13 PM »

My pwBPD said an interesting thing to me today. "I love you...   when I'm capable and I hate myself when I'm not."

Three years into this as of May 1st. We've been through many ups and downs - splitting. I've been his Goddess and his Medusa. I've been loved by him and hated by him; and gone through episodes where I'm expendible and other girls look like a good replacement.

Thank you for this thread. It explains a lot.
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« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2013, 02:58:28 PM »

I won't go all abstract on the issue, but instead try to respond in a personal way.

Even at 42, with all my years of recovery work, I find it hard to simply say "I am really angry right now". This applies to all emotions, but especially with anger (partially because I am afraid of what I'm capable of when angry). In childhood, my expressions of emotion were ignored, belittled/mocked, and/or used against me, therefore "expressing emotion = unsafe". Passive expression became the only outlet, since emotions need to come out somehow, and thus the martyr/victim stance which is a protective reaction. My temperament leans towards shy so I became more of a waif/hermit pwBPD. Other people with more bold innate temperaments become Queen/witch pwBPD. Both are defensive strategies [not an excuse, just an explanation].

Oceanheart, I just want you to know I so appreciate you and your awareness and words.  I struggle wih these things as well, but do express these feelings.  Maybe this is not helpful across the internet...   but your anger is okay with me.  Your awareness of the danger in your anger is also lovely.  I am okay with who you are.  Maybe that is not useful because I do not know you hardly at all, but I want you to know that.  I appreciate your insight into the disconnectedness, love, and other emotional experiences, not just your insight into the BPD perspective, but also your insight into the human perspective...   meaning, I can relate!  Take care.  Thanks for the workshop. 
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LoneWolf768
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« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2013, 09:08:15 PM »

Ocean, a friend of mine said to me a few months back, "I think (BPD NAME) is in love with the idea of BEING in love but knows she'll never have the definition of true love. She'll never learn to trust anyone, she'll always abandon before she's abandoned, she'll never be happy with herself and therefore can't make anyone else happy because she can't make herself happy. She's what I call 'soul sick' and obviously needs psychological help."

The part that jumped out at me was when she said "I think she's in love with the idea of BEING in love". I think BPD'ers want to fall in love like the rest of us but have no concept of teamwork, trust and being team players. I mean, come on...  you can't possibly have a healthy, harmonious and happy union of two people when one is acting like a dictator and the other a peasant.

I really, really long for the day when I meet a woman who will meet me in the middle, meet me in her end and meet me in my end. In short, someone who will give balance to me as I will for her. I can honestly say I've never, ever met a woman who didn't try and control me or change me. (laughs) To be honest with you, I don't know what I would do or how I would act if I did meet that type of woman! I shouldn't laugh because I'm honestly worried I'm locked into this mindset that I need to fix the broken! 

Anyone else feel as though someone of healthy mind, heart and soul wouldn't be appealing to them too?   
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heartandwhole
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« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2013, 03:54:22 AM »

LoneWolf,

I relate!  Sometimes I wonder if I will ever be attracted to someone who wants to give me what I want and need.  I've had healthy and caring men in my life, luckily, so I do have some references to remember.  My stuff gets in the way.  For example, when a man tries to take care of me (something I always tell myself that I want) I start to feel controlled    I'd really, really, like to break through this pattern, and I think it may be happening, because I'm noticing that I'm *not* attracted to the type of man that I used to be attracted to.  But I'm sure there is more work to be done.

I have an audio book by a therapist/Buddhist practitioner Bruce Tift.  He said something about us reinforcing our paradigms and patterns because it justifies our own coping strategies that we don't want to let go.  That really resonated with me.

I do believe that these patterns can be transformed - and I think it's through acceptance.  Acceptance that our patterns may always be something that we deal with, and being willing to feel what that brings up in us.  

Just to add: a big thank you to oceanheart for this thread.  I am grateful for your honesty and generosity in sharing your experiences.  It has helped so much more than you know!  

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« Reply #67 on: August 20, 2013, 11:05:29 PM »

LoneWolf,

I relate!  Sometimes I wonder if I will ever be attracted to someone who wants to give me what I want and need.  I've had healthy and caring men in my life, luckily, so I do have some references to remember.  My stuff gets in the way.  For example, when a man tries to take care of me (something I always tell myself that I want) I start to feel controlled    I'd really, really, like to break through this pattern, and I think it may be happening, because I'm noticing that I'm *not* attracted to the type of man that I used to be attracted to.  But I'm sure there is more work to be done.

I have an audio book by a therapist/Buddhist practitioner Bruce Tift.  He said something about us reinforcing our paradigms and patterns because it justifies our own coping strategies that we don't want to let go.  That really resonated with me.

I do believe that these patterns can be transformed - and I think it's through acceptance.  Acceptance that our patterns may always be something that we deal with, and being willing to feel what that brings up in us.  

Just to add: a big thank you to oceanheart for this thread.  I am grateful for your honesty and generosity in sharing your experiences.  It has helped so much more than you know!  

heartandwhole, I'm trying everyday to try and develop some new routine that will get me away from what I'm doing now because it seems like everything I do is keeping her in my mind. The radio, the weather, certain scents...  it's killing me.

I WANT to be attracted to an emotionally healthy woman who won't judge me, try and control me, try and isolate me from my friends and family, and won't find it amusing to toy with my head and heart.

5 years ago this past July, I really, really had my world rocked by a g/f of 10 years. I wrote about this on another board. Long story short, we weren't  'together' but still doing things i.e. going out to dinner, bars, movies, having sex...  and she was seeing another man behind my back, planning a wedding and everything. She didn't even have the decency to tell me about this guy. Her niece told me. I was utterly and completely pulverized. I didn't even want to wake up. I just didn't have the emotional stamina to want to fight through the cesspool of misery on an everyday basis. She displayed sociopathic skills, for sure.

This recent g/f is someone I met 4 years ago this past March. We talked for a a good 2 or 3 weeks before we met. IN hindsight, I was oblivious to words like 'mirroring' The first night we met...  let's just say something happened that I had no idea would happen (and it wasn't in her living room, put it that way).  It started to get too fast and I broke it off. Then the love bombing started: the 'I cant help I'm in love with you' and 'All I do id shed tears for you and you don't care' - stuff like that. We did manage to stay in touch since then. Not all the time but enough to stay social - and argue about her wanting to get back together with me, too.

Last Fall, she just seemed different. We talked more than usual; she wasn't pressing me for a relationship; she admitted she missed me and has always loved me since the day we met (which was something she professed to another man about a year later about the same length of time knowing him, too - and oddly enough, seduced him in the same manner as she did me) . I really started to let my guard down and take in the feelings and wow, did they make me dizzy! I was flying higher than I can remember. It was the greatest feeling I can remember feeling for someone. As the months went on, the BPD sings began presenting themselves and instead of getting out like I did 3 years prior, I stuck with her and her BS to show her I was a good man, that I as loyal and that this relationship was worth fighting for (only I did the bulk of the fighting for it). I felt like I was being toyed with, deceived, lied to and manipulated and did nothing to stop it. This is when the fighting, name calling (not just your average name calling - these were names meant to hurt someone REAL bad), accusations, personal insults and

then our apologies and the waters would be calm for a while.

Our relationship was ONLY 3 months and it's been every bit as difficult as the last one. I never knew what kind of a stonghold this woman had on me until she was gone and telling a mutual friend she wanted nothing to do with me. Hearing that she wanted nothing to do with me was a dagger to my heart. No one has ever told me or anyone else they wanted nothing to do with me. It killed my spirit and any little amount of self-confidence I had. I was and still am devastated. Then came the threats involving the police and the massive amount of F bombs in each threat. This was NOT the woman I thought I'd fallen for. This was, as someone else wrote on another board, a 'illusion'. The woman I fell in love with didn't exist. I'm 100% certain she told her friends the same thing about me: that I had finally revealed my true colors to her. Why? Because I defended myself against her personal attacks? Because I retaliated after hearing way too many personal attacks on my character? Because she accused me of things that I'd never dream of doing to you? I NEVER had it this bad with someone. Never fought as much as I did with her and certainly NEVER put up with the shift in personalities. I'll never understand...  

I was at my recent therapy session on June. One of the questions my 'What's difficult about dealing with this type of breakup compared to the breakup in 2008?' I told her 'The difficulty is starting all over again.' Knowing how bad thing got between us, how much anger and hated is coming from her, how much she despises me for the name calling and insults...  it hurts. It should ever have gotten that far. I acknowledged my part in the war; she did not nor will she ever. Does this make her right?

The relationship is beyond salvaging. It's too far gone and no amount of talking and apologies will bring her back into my life in any capacity. I've been living with that everyday for months now. Most days I'm kicking the crap out of myself for engaging in that sort of vile behavior with her, too. She could care less, was over me long before she broke it off and I'm sure I'm a forgotten man. Just a blip on her radar, just some guy, just some name - nobody special. This is also why I'll always maintain the she'll never, ever contact me for any reason. There is NO benefit for her to pop back in my life. Not to ask how I am, not to want to talk, nothing. Ex BPD'ers pop back in their ex'x lives? Not her. Never. I'm trying to cope with the aftermath of it all. And it's a pain I wished I'd never wish in anyone - except her so she could feel how I feel.

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maxen
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« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2013, 02:47:07 PM »

Here's an odd thought,

Maybe non's are drawn (and quartered) to BPD relationships because some of us deep down inside don't believe we deserve to be loved.  So when we meet someone who is emotionally unavailable (which produces a strong draw) yet who appears to shower us with love (at the onset), it's like a fantasy fulfillment.  The honeymoon (aka carrot) is the fantasy that we can eat our cake and still have it, but as the relationship metastasizes, what keeps us in is the reinforcement of our deeply unhealthy beliefs about ourselves (aka stick).

Schwing

what an excellent insight.
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« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2013, 07:28:16 AM »

Split from: Is there any sensitivity

The only thing I can add to this, is that during the honeymoon/idealization phase, the pwBPD is actually quite real in their expressions of love towards you.  The general consensus I've found here states they are in love with the idea of love.  :)uring this phase, they are.getting the fuel and feelings they associate with love.  What we call infatuation.

They simply live for the feelings of the moment being the facts of life.  Most people know that infatuation isn't sustainable, and leads to either mature love or acceptance of a fling that has run its course.  We move on.  pwBPD don't compute this notion of an evolution and growth from infatuation.  They are high on endorphins and oxytocin; they are addicts that want to hang on to the fix.  They love bomb you, because it is how they feel about you.  You overwhelm them, making them forget their flaws.  They want to express 'love' and bask in their happiness.

It isn't your fault they don't understand infatuation becomes something else; they are incapable of the next step.  The chemical bond masks fall off both parties, and the high is gone.  The devaluing then begins, because we failed to keep giving that rush of 'love'.  That is the illusion they wanted.  Not a mask, just a person addicted to the idea of love no human can sustain.  Just someone that wants to feel accepted. Intensity is their mantra.

Is exactly what i though often... and sometimes told to her too,while she was in her "devaluation-berserk mode".

I'm tryng to get out from a recent break-up so sometimes i really "need" to think she was in love with me... probably she was in love with her "idea of me" that's pretty different... as soon as that idea of me begun to shows my "unpleasant sides" and issues, this perfect image that she had about me crashed... and for sure this process it's been really painful for her too... i tried in every way to explain and show that the person she fell so strongly in love with was always the same "me" ,i was "that" person and not someone else... but like every person,with my issues and needs and sometimes "bad" behaviour too... she always told me "i love you like you are"... many times... it's been true maybe,until she discovered that beyond her "knight,angel,soulmate,saviour etc etc" there was just another human being.

Point of no return.
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« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2014, 07:16:56 PM »

Just wow. I don't know how I missed seeing this workshop for the whole time I've been a member here. Guess I was just ready to see it.

Big thanks for Oceanheart opening up on the topic.

I noticed anomalies throughout the nearly 38 years I've been together with my husband (undiagnosed but lots of traits of BPD!) Things like the power struggle in so many areas, or the inability to get to the level we should be at by this long in a r/s. I had no idea what I was dealing with until the past few years as his rages have grown more frequent and I opened up to my therapist.

Now that I can look back I can see there have been multiple people with PDs in my life--mother, sister-in-law, mother-in-law, possibly stepdaughter, husband, husband's first wife (which all of course makes me wonder if my therapist is just being nice to me in saying I don't have BPD.) And looking at relationships with all of them I have to say that they have all loved in the best ways they knew how. But what do I know, I thought it was love when I was a child and sick and my mom would let me use a special blanket--not spend time with me, not hold me, but put a chair by the couch with a glass of water and let me use her special blanket. So i'm guessing i'm fairly impaired in recognizing true "love you for you" love.

The passion, the heat and cold of the pwBPD that I read about here really speaks to me, as does the need-based r/s. All those things explain pretty much my whole life...

Thanks to all who participated in this workshop! It took me a while to get through it all but it was so worth it. And here's to my better-prepared next 60 years, just in case I live to 120! Smiling (click to insert in post)

dreamflyer99
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« Reply #71 on: August 09, 2014, 12:48:12 AM »

This helps me put thart question to rest an reading other  peoples posts brought me to this.  If my BPD stbx wife was abused badly enough to change her brain development where it seems that everything we do has the opposite effect.  Than you have to apply that to her as well.  To her abuse is love.   Is that not confusing?  So never talking to youj again and letting go is the ultimate sacrifice.  If you had to do everything backwards would you not be extremely stressed out.  And it helps with whay she can sleep with people so easily and maybe not you.  It helps me to move on and not hate her.  And quit asking why.
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« Reply #72 on: August 09, 2014, 12:37:38 PM »

blackmirror,

it's so good to find a place to "put" our unanswerable questions, and to find some kind of peace with the situation.
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« Reply #73 on: August 11, 2014, 12:20:13 AM »

This workshop has been so incredibly helpful for me at such a difficult time in my life. Thank you to all who have taken the time to write their thoughtful "two cents." I truly appreciate it.

I am currently going through an incredibly heartbreaking break up with my exBpd fiancé. Now that there is actual distance between us due to a protection order I was forced to put into place, I have been seeing things more clearly at times and seeing the relationship for what is was. So,writes seeing things in a very black and white way helps me to process my grief in losing what I still feel is the love of my life who also happens to be the father of my 7 month old son.

Sometimes I wonder if he ever really loved me for ME? If he ever truly loved his son? I want to believe he didn't right now because it helps me to move forward and accept him for what he is.

That he cannot love anyone because he doesn't love himself.

I drift back and forth and go from aching for him to wishing we never met. I can't understand how he could simply up and leave the territory we live when he states that he "loves us and wants us to be a family again and that he misses his son so much it is killing him." The protection order never stopped him from seeing his son. It simply kept him from living in my home as I needed to ensure that my child be safe and secure here.

If he truly loved his child would he be able to simply walk away? Actually fly away on a plane?i remember him talking about our son and saying that he "loves him so much that he is terrified that something bad will happen to him." Bpd fear of abandonment at its finest. He often opened up to me about how he was so scared of me leaving him and that he knows that he "drains the life" out of people. He knows he has patterns and seems to want to change but gets stuck in the talking and never follows through in his actions.

I have done a lot of soul searching and see my own role in the relationship and how it felt good to be needed and be there for him and to stand by him no matter what because as he often said "we made the best team." I know that I have some issues with codependency, but I have never been in more of an abusive relationship in my life. I suppose I got addicted to the crumbs that were thrown in my direction, the glimpses of the man I fell for...

He has been capable of being "selfless" for me at times when I have needed him but I find myself continuously questioning the validity of everything and wondering if it was all just one big lie.

I recognized that after the initial phase of all encompassing new love the cracks began to form and the downward spiral followed. Moving in together, having a child together, these were the two major life events that led to major unravelling. Despite it all I stood by him, went to therapy with him, and ultimately enabled him more.

Does it mean that someone loves you if they throw you a surprise birthday party? They get you flowers to cheer you up when they know you are down? They cook dinner for your entire smile? They care for you when you are sick and take you to the hospital? They pull it together to help you deliver your child even when you can see that the event is triggering major fear?

What about if the same person who did all these things also does things to deliberately push you away? To create arguments and drama? To project their issues onto you... To physically abuse you when you are pregnant and when you are holding your baby? It sounds horrendous to imagine that these two people are the same...

Facts and feelings are two distinct things. Words and actions are also two distinct things.

At times when I want to believe that his love was real I justify those terribly actions as being Bpd related and I find myself splitting my ex into the man I fell in love with and the man with BPD.

I want to believe that he loved me. That he loves my son. I want to believe that we were not props used to make him appear to have a full life and to have his needs met. I want to believe that our love wasn't about control.

We have been NC for a week now after not speaking for close to one month (the longest we have ever gone). The last message he wrote me was filled with anger over a silly misunderstanding and his final words were that he was "done with this." He has since contacted a mutual friend asking how his son and I are doing...

Again, why? I don't understand. I can't keep trying to figure it out...

He fooled me in the beginning because he told me about his BPD and stated he was in therapy and on medication. Unfortunately this was only partially true and his medication was taken sporadically and his therapy attendance only at times of crisis. Ultimately, his actions never matched his words and I can only look at his actions from this point forward in order to protect myself from further abuse and to ensure that my baby has a happy and stable life.

I suppose for me to love is to behave in ways that are ultimately loving. If there is no respect or consideration, (at least on somewhat constant basis) how can there be love?

I am left to flip flop from believing that he did love me/love us to feeling that if he ever truly cared how could he continue to behave in this fashion.

Did he ever love me? It's not my job to find out. It's not my burden to prove.
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« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2014, 03:48:29 AM »

Having read substantial amounts on NPD and BPD, the consensus I’ve found is that BPD cannot love others in the sense we would define love. Now I’ve read this often about NPD, but see many on this website state their was love from their mother. In my case there clearly wasn’t any love from my NPD bro and my BPD mom. My mom would often use the word, even talk about a thing called love, but I cannot recall a single action that irrefutably demonstrated love.

I read a thread where people agree their moms never showed empathy but did show love. Yet to me, you can’t have love for another without empathy for that other. Is this because of the spectrum that is BPD or is this just wishful thinking on our behalf ?

So I would be interested in knowing if anyone had found a reputable article that provided empirical proof that BPD love. I’ve found plenty that say NPD lack this. My sister’s view is that “all mothers love their kids.” period. Yet again, I have often read this is not the case.

Ironically I realise there was no love at a very early age (I’m the scape goat). I was convinced I was adopted (even hunted for my birth certificate which my BPD wouldn’t show me). Tried to take my life around age 10 and ran away from home age 12. You’d think by now I would have excepted it, but you always hold out hope. From the recommended reading I have, it seems to suggest that this hope, many not be helpful. It keeps you anchored to a BPD. It keeps you banging your head against a brick wall.
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