The game: Our wants versus theirs, and the ensuing hurt.

[PDQuick]

I have been aware of what I wanted out of my past relationship versus her wants out the past relationship, and the trouble arising from the difference. Using the good ole' football analogy, Ill try to expand on that.

My team, and her team took the field on a hot August night, several years ago. She was on offense, and me on defense. She came at me hard, and I let her into my territory, because I thought she was a good field general. Actually, truth be told, she overwhelmed my defense, and took control of the field.

As the game went on, I noticed that she wasnt playing fair, and would run trick plays, illegal in my book, but darnit, my referees must have been napping. I saw the flags, but they were in the pocket, not on the field. I allowed her to score many times because she was good at the game, I wasnt.

After getting my bearings, I started playing a hard game. I started to notice that her dirty style affected my style of play. I started playing dirty, pulling out my own little trick plays.

My idea of this game was far different than what I was involved in, and looking back, when I started getting away from the rules, I should have walked off the field. But I didnt. I stayed, I played, and I started playing for entirely different reasons than for what this game was intended for. The intention of the game is to play fair, and find a worthy opponent. Enjoy the game, for the game, and not for individual pleasure of running over the other team.

By halftime, the game was at a stalemate, penalties kept each team falling back and punting. There was no scoring, and neither of us wanted the other to score. It became a hard fought battle, me showing her that I could, and would win with my strategy, and her showing me that she would run me over with her special teams and her hard hitting offensive manuevers. It was intense, and it was a game gone sour, not enjoyable by either team. But the game went on.

In the last quarter, both teams were tired, and were pulling out all the stops. All kinds of inappropriate behavior, flags littering the field, referees punched out, laying on the sidelines. It was ugly, but for some unknown reason, the game dredged on. It was the game that had become more important than anything. The sportsmanship was out the window, and the respect was buried in the end zone. I wanted to win the game, and she wanted to win the game. Neither of us cared how we did it, but we were both resigned to win this darn thing, no matter what, because we wanted something, and we didnt care what we had to do to get it. We stood in each others way from what we wanted. We were going to mow each other down. We were going to get what we wanted, that win, no matter what. We didnt care if we had to literally kill each other in the process, but one of us were going to cross that goaline.

In the final play, she did, she ran a play that left me breathless on the field, hurt too much to get up and chase her. She crossed the goaline. She stood there in the end zone celebrating her victory. She stood there alone. No fans in the stands, no teammates to cheer her on, nothing but her lonliness, and I still laid there on the field, in pain, a loser.

She went on the very next week, and participated in another game, with another opponent. I was still unable to play, and wouldnt for a couple years. Who won? Who lost? Neither.

In my inactivity, I saw that the game I was playing quickly evolved into something that couldnt be won. It wasnt a game anymore, but a quest.

Back to real life. I wanted something so bad, that I was willing to do anything, take anything, and be anything to get what I wanted. I wanted a relationship, I wanted someone to love me, to prove to myself that I was loveable. I was damaged, I didnt know how to play the game. Growing up, I was never taught the rules, and the strategies. On the other hand, she was wanting something terribly different from me. She wanted someone to fill her void, someone to make her feel safe and secure, she wanted someone to do all the things she didnt want to do, and didnt have the experience and knowledge to do.

It was her in her wants to complete her, and me in my wants to complete me that lead to the entire dysfunction. She was going to get what she wanted out of me, and I was going to get what I wanted out of her. It wasnt two people getting what they needed from themselves, supporting each other in their personal journeys in life, trying to help each other be good people, and better each others humanity. There is where the problem was. I couldnt get what I wanted from her, but from me, and the other way around. It was a recipe for destruction, and it baked up just as the book said it would.

What I am wondering here is, can anyone see where they went wrong trying to demand something from someone? Can you not see that you were wanting something so bad, that you hurt yourself in the process of trying to get from someone what was yours to give to yourself? If you could have seen this dynamic, and had stopped it when it started, how much pain would you have spared yourself from? In my situation, I wouldnt have been hurt at all, because the relationship wouldnt have lasted two weeks.

[ellefun2]

I started to notice that her dirty style affected my style of play. I started playing dirty, pulling out my own little trick plays.

When I came to this realization is when I threw in the towel.  I was becoming someone I didn't know and didn't like.  My dysfunction was believing that if I tried hard enough, loved hard enough, sacrificed hard enough, my frog would turn into a prince.  It never occurred to me that I couldn't change another person, nor was it my right to do so. 

[elphaba]

For me it was like we weren't even playing the same game...like I was playing basketball against a football player.

I believed what he essentially wanted me to believe in the early stages and I stuck to that belief long after it had clearly become something else.  I kept trying to get it to be something it never really was...and in doing so allowed myself and my children to be hurt.  No matter how much I begged at the end for him to do something to save the relationship, to work with me, to try...he couldn't be something he wasn't.

How much pain would I have saved myself, ALL of it.

[Shanley]

What I am wondering here is, can anyone see where they went wrong trying to demand something from someone? Can you not see that you were wanting something so bad, that you hurt yourself in the process of trying to get from someone what was yours to give to yourself? If you could have seen this dynamic, and had stopped it when it started, how much pain would you have spared yourself from? In my situation, I wouldnt have been hurt at all, because the relationship wouldnt have lasted two weeks.

Me,too. And I've spent most of the time since I first discovered this site a year and half ago berating myself for letting things turn out like this. I realized just yesterday that I've forgiven myself for that. I can't do anything about that now. But if I could, I would reach back across the years and give myself a good shake.

[hopethereishope]

What I am wondering here is, can anyone see where they went wrong trying to demand something from someone? Can you not see that you were wanting something so bad, that you hurt yourself in the process of trying to get from someone what was yours to give to yourself? If you could have seen this dynamic, and had stopped it when it started, how much pain would you have spared yourself from? In my situation, I wouldnt have been hurt at all, because the relationship wouldnt have lasted two weeks.

Definitely! But it's true for all relationships, not only for BPDs. I didn't want to see the facts. I believed his words and ignored actions. Most of all I wanted to be respected and loved by the very person I had to disengage myself from in order to be able to love and respect myself. And it's no longer about him, it's about me and my ability and willingness  to forgive myself for allowing such treatment to continue for so long. It's not about his lies, but about me lying to me, convincing myself that his words were true. I realised that I needed to be a victim, to play out that... whatever it was... in order to deal with my own painful issues. I had to be really down to start clearing the mess in my life (childhood with uBPDM and enD). I was aware of the mess I grew up in, but I didn't know that I blamed myself for it and therefore I had to pay, and I kept paying until I was totally broke and broken. What a lesson!

[PDQuick]

Great answers folks. How many of you have the lightbulb moment that you did do this to yourself, instead of them doing it all to you? What inspired that lightbulb moment?

[hopethereishope]

Great answers folks. How many of you have the lightbulb moment that you did do this to yourself, instead of them doing it all to you? What inspired that lightbulb moment?

For me it was a long process, but these words were important:

As long as you're looking at, explaining, analysing, justifying, obsessing, blaming, dealing with…, ….,….,… someone else, the only thing that you’re actually doing is NOT dealing with yourself and you’re role in it.

[PDQuick]

That is a great thought Hope, where did that come from. There is alot of continuancy in not realising your part. Its almost like you will keep recycling until you get it. Once you get it, you can deal with it, and then lay it down and walk away, dont you agree?

[carolt0604]

For me lately it has been about taking responsibility, maturing and finally being an adult.   I have taken it, cleared it out and are finally moving on from it.  I still have compassion for my XBPDH because I see how far he has to go and hope that one day he will.  I was married to him for 19 years and have been able to grow in the past two years.  Hope this makes sense. 

Carol

[ellefun2]

How many of you have the lightbulb moment that you did do this to yourself, instead of them doing it all to you? What inspired that lightbulb moment?

I did have a lightbulb moment just a month or so back.  I was mentally revisiting the time when I was contemplating my start-up business.  Against my better judgment, I allowed him to handle the accounts and client contact lists as well as be a signer on the business account and line of credit.  I might as well have put my 6-year-old behind the wheel and told her to drive to the store.  

The truth is I never acknowledged his limitations, never accepted him the way he was.  I realized that I never accepted myself the way I am either; I was never quite smart enough, pretty enough, loveable enough, successful enough, etc.  Until I learn to embrace who I am, accept who I am, love who I am, I can't really give that to anyone else.  

[SOOOdone]

there was this moment a few weeks into the relationship in which he did something that was very immature. I got REALLY angry. I thought I was angry at HIM...

In retrospect, the intensity of my anger was not so much about what he did. It was that what he did f**ked up the fantasy I had of who I wanted him to be.

What I WANTED wasn't unreasonable. Who he WAS made that want unreasonable...I too, saw patterns/repetitions but listened to the words and simply was angered by the actions. It was less painful to be angry than to face the truth.

So to answer the questions...i knew by the first date something was amiss. definitely by the second. without a doubt at the end of two months. I also doubted my doubts, since I have some commitment phobia and thought perhaps I should try to be more tolerant...

I didn't want to see that my commitment issues were more about the people I picked to commit to so it would LOOK like I could commit.

Simply put, I was not self-protective. Between being overly cynical and overly naive, I needed to learn to trust until otherwise proven not to, in a realistic way...and take things slowly. I was so darn desperate to be "loved'' that i could put a crumb on the table, hold up a magnifying glass and exclaim "See? Thát's a cake!" Amazing what longing for feeling loved will have me do. Instead of it being an inside job, I was looking for redemption on the outside...

[Shanley]

What I WANTED wasn't unreasonable. Who he WAS made that want unreasonable...I too, saw patterns/repetitions but listened to the words and simply was angered by the actions. It was less painful to be angry than to face the truth.

That's me exactly.

Simply put, I was not self-protective. Between being overly cynical and overly naive, I needed to learn to trust until otherwise proven not to, in a realistic way...and take things slowly. I was so darn desperate to be "loved'' that i could put a crumb on the table, hold up a magnifying glass and exclaim "See? Thát's a cake!" Amazing what longing for feeling loved will have me do. Instead of it being an inside job, I was looking for redemption on the outside...

This, too. Well put, SOOdone. I had my lightbulb moment only a few days ago. I realized I had known what I wanted but not how to get it. I thought I could will it to happen instead of actively making choices.

I think my lightbulb moment happened because I let go of my anger at myself and him. It was distracting me.

[oneflewover]

Great answers folks. How many of you have the lightbulb moment that you did do this to yourself, instead of them doing it all to you? What inspired that lightbulb moment?

My lightbulb moment was the opposite.  I realized what I was ultimately dealing with and that I could not be a solution.  You can only control what you can control.  And when I fully came to terms with that concept, I knew it was time to lay it down.

I wanted so much for success with my ex.  I saw the potential for greatness and wanted so much for him to see that too.  And I hung around thinking I could convince him, inspire him, motivate him, and love him to chase that same dream and goal too.  When I realized he was not in that mindset nor capable of being in that mindset, that is where the lightbulb went on.  I learned about a personality disorder and I tied it to him based on my facts and my experiences and I came to terms with accepting that I was wanting what he could not give.

Then and only then could I look around and see that I was no longer a victim  but a participant and that I needed to accept some responsibility and make a decision to disengage.

OFO

[Charles6722]

Hi OFO-

  I don't want to misconstrue your meaning here, but, are you saying unless we are disengaged from a BPD we are participating? I understand as a STAYER, I can only "manage" the BPD in my SO, not fix her, but, am I then still a participant OR victim?  From your post, I can see coming to the same conclusion, but, I want/need to try!


charles-

[oneflewover]

Hi OFO-

  I don't want to misconstrue your meaning here, but, are you saying unless we are disengaged from a BPD we are participating? I understand as a STAYER, I can only "manage" the BPD in my SO, not fix her, but, am I then still a participant OR victim?  From your post, I can see coming to the same conclusion, but, I want/need to try!


charles-

Please misconstrue away!  And of course you should try...I DID!  Marriage is worth fighting for and participating in!  But sometimes you have to know when your participation is working against you and the relationship.

We all have varying degrees here with our situations, some worse than others.  I was participating with someone who was not trying or doing one iota of anything to make it viable to stay, in fact it was toxic to stay or hang around, after all I was dealing with a series of adulteries.  And so I was staying in a relationship--all by myself.  Banging my head up against a wall over and over again.  My motivation was I had the answers to a solution and if only I could sell it to "him".  But he was not interested in buying and that is where I realized that I was participating in something I need not be.  When I realized about this disorder and what exactly I was dealing with, my ability to come out of the fog and really view my experience from a frank and in your face reality that I was perpetuating an unhealthy environment.  It was not working for him, not working for me and I was not offering any answers or solutions that he was willing to apply towards the greater good.  Plus, I refused to let him mock the institution of marriage any further than he already had.  He was degrading the covenant.  I single handedly for way too long was the only one holding the pillars of the foundation of our marriage/relationship.  That is an impossible feat!

So I guess for me, I was participating in the unhealthiness of it all.  My ability to see just how dysfunctional things were and just how toxic things were clouded my ability to disengage from something I needed to let go of.  

That does not mean one size fits all nor that stayers with BPDs experience what I experienced.  Only you can gage that and only you can determine when you’re participating is doing more harm than good.      

[hopethereishope]

That is a great thought Hope, where did that come from. There is alot of continuancy in not realising your part. Its almost like you will keep recycling until you get it. Once you get it, you can deal with it, and then lay it down and walk away, dont you agree?

Well, I can agree but with caution; I'm still on the road to recovery, not fully there. And I honestly believe that although there are some common traits, each of us will put the pieces together as it fits her/him best.

As for the thought... I was constantly obsessing about my M, her happiness and relationship with D and my T told me that as long as I was "researching" them I was doing nothing about me. I didn't get it the first time, nor the second, but after being on this board, reading whatever I could that was related and after some more T I realized that I was playing the same part with everyone. But the best thing was that as an adult I didn't have to do it, it was my choice, unconscious, but still a choice.

[Charles6722]

Thanks for the response, Thanks for sharing your wisdom, I suppose the hardest part is assessing the relationship from within, she agrees to do this or that and either complies half-way, offers an alt. OR just doesn't do it, so I'm left constantly trying to assess what's really going on and GOD bless you, on putting up with the adultery, I don't think I could at this point, it sounds like you went to great lengths to restore your marriage, I can't say how far I will go, until she makes it too painful to stay?


Charles-

[oneflewover]

Our wants vs. theirs...

Charles, this is where I made peace.  When I let go and walked away, I did so knowing I did all that I could and that I was walking away not for selfish reasons such as lets say, to be with someone new, or to gain selfish goals, I walked away because I honored God and I honored myself and the institution of marriage.  What was going on between my ex and myself was not a marriage.

My wants and his wants were polar opposites.  I thought my wants could inspire him to regroup and realign himself with me, our child, and our marriage.  I failed to see that he did not really want that and perhaps guilt is what kept him hanging around.  Guilt that he would rather be somewhere else, with someone else.  When I saw that struggle he was in, even vile at best, I knew that by wanting him to stay in my life, I was failing to observe and pay attention to his wants---a life away from me.  And the dance we did was suffocating us both and contributing to an already negative environment (his BPD).

OFO

[gertrude]

Brilliant Post PDQ - and thank you- I have been trying to learn the rules of football for years (to no avail) an with the help of your post, I have made considerable progress.

I think your analogy is so clever - I didn't really have a lightbulb moment - instead, I was waiting for him to have the lightbulb moment as it as so obvious in my reality how bizarre his behavior was - I honestly believed sooner or later he would have to see it - it was unavoidable.  It was with the help of this site that I finally realized he was not going to change - not at the age of 60 - not without therapy, which he utterly refused.  So, I got out of my game - but my game was a little different - my game was the game of the ancient mayans who played their own form of basketball - some similarities to modern basketball except for one significant difference - the losing team was beheaded.  Think of how hard those players must have played and the excitement amongst the spectators.

Well, I finally figured, I was never going to win - he had a killer instinct that I actually found impressive - not good, mind you, but very impressive - and that he was shameless.  I realized I could never equal him, much less defeat him - and so I decided to stop playing before I lost my head.  Bad enough I lost my heart, my self esteem and almost lost my children.  I couldn't let him actually kill me also - and that is what would have happened - not directly by his hand, but through the pain, and agony that an abusive relationship can create.  If he didn't succeed at causing my physical death, no doubt he would have killed my spirit - I was at the event horizon for that anyway - turn around and leave fast, or get sucked into the big black hole, lost forever. 

So, I left - I have my head.  My heart is mostly repaired, my esteem is becoming healthy again - I speak to my kids every day and we get along mostly pretty well (not bad for two daughters) and my spirit is back.  I got out in time - in the nick of time.

Thanks for the post PDQ  -  that was a good one!  Carol

[SOOOdone]

OFO...same thing here. Once I realized that we were not at all aligned...that he felt suffocated by simply by living with me...even though he was away 17 hours a day...when I realized if I had any wants and needs of my own he would feel put upon...and finally the beginnings of a cheating lifestyle to cause even more distance...we were not on the same page. I realized the more I tried to get him to "see" that our relationship was being destroyed the less I could "see" or understand what that really meant: He wanted OUT. Although I got confusing signals to the contrary the actions were loud and clear. I had to stop "making" him "see" or trying to change his attitude. People are into you or they aren't. For WHATEVER reason. Knowing it was BPD or NPD or STD didn't matter much at the end of the day. We wanted different things.

[oneflewover]

SOODone,

It was hard to see the bigger picture when they did the push/pull thing.  And that is where my ability/wants to see some clarity in his "actions" to really be elsewhere over his words of telling me he loved me so.  So I banged my head and held on for dear life hoping that one day his actions would match his words.  Confusing signals indeed they were.  It impaired my judgment and paralyzed me so.  I wanted those words to ring true, just like they use too.  I so overlooked his actions (the other women, not moving back home, changing jobs, etc.).  That is where I participated. This is what I will own.  And when that lightbulb went off, then and only then did the dynamics change and I finally conceeded that our relationship was over and the marriage was truly done.  Only then did I understand the rages, the re-engagements, the projections.  It takes some time to disconnect and separate yourself for your participation and take it all so darn personally.   

Long hard road, some tough lessons.

[SOOOdone]

i hear you. I had a ton of light bulb moments but i kept turning the power off and kept groping in the dark. finally, my big light bulb moment was when I looked in the mirror after losing weight, sleep, looked like a deer-in-headlights with anxiety and mistrust. I thought "NO person is worth getting sick over!" and that was it.

[Jeffree]

What I am wondering here is, can anyone see where they went wrong trying to demand something from someone?

I wouldn't necessarily say I "went wrong," because I think in affairs of the heart there is no right or wrong. There just is and we learn from our experiences as we go. Hence, I try not to beat myself up.

I never really demanded anything from my ex. I just trusted that she would drive herself in all things by the same standards of excellence I did myself and should that not be the case and it affected "us" or me, then we'd have to negotiate (as what I thought relationships were about) a solution to the challenge.

Can you not see that you were wanting something so bad, that you hurt yourself in the process of trying to get from someone what was yours to give to yourself?

What I can see is that when I met my ex I was a 30 year old man, happy to be living in NYC, establishing myself in my career, enjoying all the city had to offer, and I met her. She was in grad school, finishing up her last semester, living in a PH apt. her Dad was paying for, and we became fast friends. All I wanted was to continue being friends and see what may result.

I was in individual and group therapy learning to give to myself everything I needed to be happy, since I had already learned I was the only one who could ultimately make me happy...and I was happy. I was in a really good place emotionally when I had met her.

At the time, I was just looking for someone to enjoy life with, and my ex seemed like a pretty good candidate.

That's about all I saw at the time. I am not going to beat myself up from the perspective of a 42 y.o., divorced man, when I was 30 years old at the time I met my ex. 1/4 of my life has passed since those early days, and while I have learned soo much since, it seems unfair to me to feel as though I wronged myself by asking of someone something(s) I should have been giving to myself when I was 30.

With age comes wisdom. Now I have a broader and deeper dating/relationship experience that is signifanctly different from the experiences of the 30 y.o. man I was when I met my ex.

If you could have seen this dynamic, and had stopped it when it started, how much pain would you have spared yourself from?

I am not sure, since I might have had a worse experience with someone else even more sinister...or I might have gotten luckier and found a much more enduring and enriching love.

--J

[oneflewover]

Jeffree, you and I always seem to be of the same mindset.

There is nothing wrong with demanding something from our partners.  We should have expectations and certain demands when it comes to our relationship.  I.E., monogamy, respect, flexibility, etc.  You know, all those things that keep it healthy and alive.   :

I don't dispute or dispel the notion that we all need to internalize and examine where we failed within ourselves and we failed our partners.  But with BPDs, we kind of get electrocuted and everything becomes so short circuited.  The traits and the crazy little patterns of a borderline really do impair us.  So we can't discount that nor can we be too hard on ourselves from sparing ourselves "the pain".

I fought for a marriage.  I fought for my child.  I fought for the love between a man and a woman.  I fought for the doctrine of my faith.  Does that warrant beating up of myself?  No.  I think it just makes me an excellent warrior with unfortunately some pretty horrific battle scars.

OFO


 

[Jeffree]

The one thing I am careful not to do is blanketly blame my ex for any residual harm she caused me and any ruts I was/am in, nor am I about to bow down at her feet and thank her for forcing me to learn the lessons I have and to become the person I am now.

For example, I would not say, "She made me gain 60 lbs. since I met her because..." I was always in control of my health. That's my responsibility. I am responsible for ME, not how someone else acts toward me. Yet, I am responsible for getting myself to safety if I am being abused.

That being said, I will castigate my ex for the way she CHOOSE to treat me in the end.

--J

[oneflewover]

That being said, I will castigate my ex for the way she CHOOSE to treat me in the end.

Yes, and that is where any strife I have towards my ex begins and ends.  Because when his end came knocking, all hell broke loose and I swear I had no idea what hit me.

It never is about blame or even total personal accountability.  It is about dignity and decorum, and the lack thereof, isn't Jeffree?

[Jeffree]

Maybe it's about our core self.

When mine was tested it guided me though the divorce process in an honest, bold, fair, aggressive, safe, logical, dignified way. That's who I am and what I am about.

When her core self came into the light it was all about deceit, denial, infidelity, emptiness, control, anger, hate, destruction.

Sometimes we see the core self of our SO early on, sometimes it takes years. It's not always just there right in the open for us to see. You just don't know what someone is capable of until they absolutely show you.

--J

[oneflewover]

You just don't know what someone is capable of until they absolutely show you.

You got that right.  And hence the shock and me being paralyzed for as long as I was.  I truly was frozen by it all.  If anyone in my camp would have told me prior to that he would behave the way he did, people would have argued until dawn to the contrary.  It was baffling to all.   

Let's face it, that is why we are here on this forum, still purging, still giving ourselves reality checks and tune-ups.  It was not typical of a divorce or break up where a personality disorder was not involved.  I know this for sure.  People go on and heal quite nicely.  We were, and I use these words deliberately, emotionally raped by our ex BPD partners.  And the residuals and aftermath is vastly different in recovery.

That is why we must cut ourselves some slack.  I will internalize and self examine of course, but to be real honest with you, it really does solely rest on the shoulders of my ex.  My only set back is I hung around too long trying to save the man.  My wants vs. his wants...well the game ended when my healthy, balanced and realistic wants outweighed his insane wants.     

OFO

[PDQuick]

<Sneaking in and throwing this out to good old Fred Flinstone over there and hiding under a rock to await his reaction>

That being said, I will castigate my ex for the way she CHOOSE to treat me in the end.

When you are a gazelle, drinking from a pond in Africa, and find yourself running for your life from a lion, do you hate the lion personally for what it does naturally, or can you respect the natural happenings, and see that it is the situation that you truly hate, and then realise that it was because of your desire to drink and forgetfullness to keep a safe eyes out, that has brought you to this situation?

Is the lion wrong for doing what he needs to do to survive? Are you wrong for doing what you need to do to survive? Is the situation wrong? The answers are all no. It is basic survival. The only thing you can do to change the situation, is realise that ":)amn, well there is a lion" and keep your distance.

[oneflewover]

If I have to worry about drinking leisurely from the pond and my husband sneaking up behind me to do harm to me, then I guess I am never getting married again.

Um Jeffree...he is all yours.   

[hopethereishope]

How do you know that you're a gazelle and not a lion? How do you know that a bf/gf is not a gazelle?

What I'm saying is that when you're falling for someone you believe/assume that you're of the same species.

[oneflewover]

The thing here is, we should not have to worry about what kind of animal we are with our partners.  It should make no difference whatsoever.  When you can't trust your partner to be a good steward of your well-being than good God, who can you trust?

We should not have to fear our partner invoking harm upon us.

[hopethereishope]

We should not have to fear our partner invoking harm upon us.

No, but my guess is that we should not dismiss it either. The first time isn't going to be the last. My only conclusion is that it's their way of solving problems and dealing with the world in general. You just have to believe it the first time you see it (and walk away?).

[SOOOdone]

ugh...

people are who they are. as long as we expect rational behavior from someone intrinsically irrational we have a conflict. obviously a person can look rational until they prove otherwise. that's where the confusion sets in.

it sort of like having a 'phantom arm' after an arm amputation...one still feels and thinks it is there when it is not. was it there once? yes. is it there now? no. does it feel like it is? yes. is that confusing? yes. is there a time where one has to face the fact that it isn't there anymore? hopefully...

[Jeffree]

My problem is that I was a gazelle and she made it seem as though she was gazelle, only she turned out to be a lion.

--J

[oneflewover]

You know lions are king of the jungles.  They only kill to eat and when they do, they are the most humane of all hunters, they go for the jugular vein and take their victim down cleanly.  That is why they have the title and are respected.

I would equate our BPDs more to the hyenas.  Never fair, never clean, and never regal in nature.

But okay since we are on that an analogy, most of us didn't marry or align ourselves outside our kind where we feared sneak attacks.  We thought we were good.  So how did we know that we married a sheep in wolves clothing so to speak?  And when the teeth were bared, um, yeah it is no wonder we froze.   

[Jeffree]

Looking back, I can say that my ex's suicidal ideations were clear signs that she was mentally ill.

Nowadays that's not a lion's jaw I would put my head into. However, at the time, I thought, "How could I abandon her at her most desperate time of need? Let me help her through this." I fgured that was the best strategy for both of our sakes.

I guessed wrong.

--J

[SuddenlySense]

Several things in this discussion brought up some stuff for me.

First, the game analogy.  I thought I was playing with someone who had the same rulebook, equipment and sportsmanship that I did.  I thought this for a very long time.  I thought it was just me who didn't have the technique or skills to play that was hampering the progress of the game, or my (our) success in it.

Another thing which works with the game analogy is the fact that we were playing one game (say, football) before the marriage (for several years, off and on).  After we got married (as early as during the honeymoon), the game changed.  Picture a football team leaving the field and being replaced by an equally talented basketball team.  Any self-respecting opponent would question that, maybe refuse to play since that was not what they signed on for.  This is what happened to me.  Only I didn't realize it then, so I did not ask for a halt to the game.  I asked for explanations, but was told that this is what happened in all marriages...that we weren't kids anymore.  Unfortunately, I didn't ask for a second opinion!

The other thing here  is that, yes, it was a lot me...not the person who caused the problems, but the one who contributed to the neverending hashing out of them, over and over again.  I'm not going to beat myself up over this either...I didn't know any better. 

Stbx was still stating in emails after the separation that it was me who gave up on the marriage.  I stated then, and I feel now, that I finally decided I had done all that I could do without sacrificing either my sanity or my self-respect.  And I  am willing to give up neither of these.

[Jeffree]

Thinking like Quick for an instant if I may (I got spurs that jingle, jangle, jingle)...

I think he wants us to not let our dismay, anger, resentment, hurt, lack of trust, confusion, disappointment or the aftermath of our exBPD affect the rest of our life to such an extent that we can't enjoy the present.

We can't let one person force us into our shell for years just because he or she got the better of us. We can't not trust anyone ever again just because we did once with a BPD and got royally screwed.

In order to move on, I think he is suggesting that we take as much responsibility for our role in the BPD dance as we can.

I agree wholeheartedly with him on almost everything he says. I just happen to differ with him in the entent to which I am willing to take responsibility for someone basically switching on me. Ya, sure, I could tell early on that she was not well. However, she admitted that she had problems, pleaded with me for help, and took responsibility for it, so I felt comfortable staying with her and helping her though her stuff.

I had no idea she'd turn on me the way she did, though now I can see it was only a matter of time.

I don't blame myself for trying to make a good life with her. She showed me the potential to do right by me, and I took a chance on her. I do, however, take extreme issue with her flipping on me, having an affair, then trying to lay the blame for her infidelity on me...and trying to destroy me in the divorce process.

--J

[PDQuick]

IMHO, I think the lesson to be learned for all of is to see the rality, and recognize it, rather than believe in the dream, and give everything of ourselves to try to make it happen.

Looking back, it is very clear to me that the outcome was predetermined, and I did nothing but give of myself to delay it. Kinda like being out at sea, and being in a boat with a big hole in it. I bailed and bailed and bailed and bailed, until I had no energy left to bail. I bailed because first of all, I thought I could do something about it. Secondly, I valued the boat more than me to the point of wearing myself out completely bailing, instead of realizing that the boat was going to sink, and using my energy to swim to shore. After bailing, I had no energy left to swim, and everything I worked for was still sinking, and I took the brunt of that blame. The boat was going to sink. Period. It isnt my fault that it was sinking, but it is now my fault that I will drown, because I decided to waste my enegy bailing, instead of swimming. Thats my lesson, what about yours?

[Jeffree]

Hmmmmm...my lesson? Great question!

I learned that love between a man and a woman is just a part of what makes life worth enjoying. There's love of self, love of friends and family, love of pet, love of food, love of work, love of the experience of life, love of the people who are on the fringes of your life, love of hobbies, etc.

--J

[Chili]

IMHO, I think the lesson to be learned for all of is to see the rality, and recognize it, rather than believe in the dream, and give everything of ourselves to try to make it happen.

Looking back, it is very clear to me that the outcome was predetermined, and I did nothing but give of myself to delay it. Kinda like being out at sea, and being in a boat with a big hole in it. I bailed and bailed and bailed and bailed, until I had no energy left to bail. I bailed because first of all, I thought I could do something about it. Secondly, I valued the boat more than me to the point of wearing myself out completely bailing, instead of realizing that the boat was going to sink, and using my energy to swim to shore. After bailing, I had no energy left to swim, and everything I worked for was still sinking, and I took the brunt of that blame. The boat was going to sink. Period. It isnt my fault that it was sinking, but it is now my fault that I will drown, because I decided to waste my enegy bailing, instead of swimming. Thats my lesson, what about yours?

That is a great analogy. My time spent on the sinking ship was very short in comparison to most. I thank God daily that I found out about BPD, came to bpdfamily.com and got out as quickly as I did because I often think I would have drown had I not. Now, PM is drowning and I am not responsible for it. While I don't want him to drown, it's his own fault that he hasn't looked for the tools to repair the boat and get to safety.

My lessons have been very much about myself. I've had problems with relationships my whole life due to choices I made. I learned to look at my past, accept some things, forgive others and move forward with that knowledge.

Chili

[SOOOdone]

My lessons are:

I have limitations I need to respect.

The four most dangerous words for me have been ''I Can Handle It"...

I learned that getting into a relationship isn't much different than how I would buy a vintage automobile...ALL cars require work over time, so it's best for me to buy one that is already very close to how I want it to be, even if it is more expensive (takes longer to find) at the starting gate. If I buy one that needs a total resto, it ends up costing me a LOT more, takes FOREVER before I can actually drive it if I ever finish the job, and is a never-ending project. In the meantime, the time is wasted fixing where I could have been  driving already...

[oneflewover]

There are lots of lessons for me, good and bad.  But the single most lesson that stands out for me is there are no guarantees in life.  No guarantees at all.  So you have to live fully, capably, and ready to experience all that life can or cannot offer to you.  There is going to be heartache and disappoint just as much as there is going to be joy and success.   

Love always starts with the big guy, then within yourself and all else is well "gravy".  That is my only guarantee...

[foiles]

Lightbulb moment- too many to list.  Unfortunately it took awhile for me to open my eyes and look into the light.  Lessons learned-  Love yourself and everything else falls into place.  Acceptance of reality.  The truth does set you free. 

[ellefun2]

My lesson is learning to trust myself and seeing things for what they really are; not what I hope, dream or think they should be, but what is. 

PDQ, I like your analogy of the sinking boat.  My problem was that I refused to acknowledge that it sinking was inevitable.  I baled, I tried to patch the hole, I tried to cork it up.  Hell, who knows?  Maybe I even thought I could raise it off the surface of the water and make it fly.  I was in huge denial until I was up to my neck.  However, I did manage to salvage the emergency flares and realized it was time to signal a rescue team.     

[hopethereishope]

Lessons learned: put yourself first, trust yourself, rely on yourself, accept reality, most of all love, respect and be loyal to yourself.

[MathCoreChick]

i just wrote about this somewhere else.  it might take me a minute to lead into it.  bear with me.

for the almost 6 years i was with my EX i operated under several delusions.  one of them being that being in a 'good'  and 'stable' relationship would somehow erase/ make up/ negate any deficiencies i had from having such a sucky childhood and a very fragmented family  unit.  to participate in this delusion, i had to not only ignore red flag after red flag after red flag, but i had to stifle myself and get on the 'get along bus' WHICH WAS MY CHOICE.  most of the time when there was an issue with the EX, it was because my 'true self' had taken over for the false person i was being and put her foot down.  HARD.  this also involved doing just about everything you are not supposed to do to engage someone with BPD.  but then the fear would rule out and i would submit to whatever the *compromise* (i know and believe you me i am using that term verrrrrry loosely) was to maintain peace, harmony, and *equilibrium* ...you see i thought if i did all the 'right' things and said all the 'right' things then i would get a ring (which i had and pawned last christmas but that's another story) and then i would be surrounded by the unconditional love and safety my FOO never provided.  then one day i got so mad i just had it and we were finally done--it was mostly about him yelling me about not microwaving something the 'right' way and then he took back my returnables without asking.  i know, stupid, but whatever fight was in me finally came out and took over and kicked that other silly, weak, codependednt girl who i had made myself into straight to the curb.

that was the beginning of me not pegging myself as a victim.  once i stopped feeling sorry for myself and the anger and pist in me took over for the fear of the unknown/ fear of failure there was no looking back.

i will also say i think i got to the point where i cared more about 'winning' and being 'right' about the relationship then anything else.  when i realized this i think i finally understood that i couldnt just blame my EX, i had done my fair share of damage and drawn blood as well.

good topic.

[PDQuick]

This is all good stuff, and I appreciate everyone chiming in. What is it that you will carry from the previous relationship, into your next one? How can you make your part more stable?

[2bad2stay]

I will bring the parts of me that were good, like compassion, kindness, empathy, and patience.  Those are certainly part of a good, healthy relationship. 

But I will not try to become someone I'm not just for the sake of maintaining a relationship again.  If I can't be myself, be honest, and be independent, then I'm with the wrong person and would be better off alone.  I can do my part to make things more stable by examining myself, my actions, and my beliefs, then staying true to myself.  I won't rely on anyone else to take care of me, I have to do that.  And I also have to allow myself to feel and be vulnerable.  After years of developing a protective shell, I have to learn to be open.  And making those decisions has been deliberate.  I realize that I played a part in all of this previous mess and am taking the steps to not repeat those mistakes again.  It's not always easy.  But I make myself go beyond what is familiar for the sake of being healthier in the long run.  We do have the ability to change our actions and not repeat past mistakes.  It just takes effort.

[PDQuick]

Very cool 2Bad, very cool.

[Charles6722]

2B2S- Your right ON! and it does take work, perhaps the hardest part is, after finding the faults in ourselves, making an honest effort to "fix" it!


Charles-

[carolt0604]

I will bring sweetness, devotion, sympathy, adaptability, trust, dependability, sensitivity, a strong will, passion, and optimism and along with that my great smile and curves.  (just had to add that in for me).

Carol

[PDQuick]

I will bring sweetness, devotion, sympathy, adaptability, trust, dependability, sensitivity, a strong will, passion, and optimism and along with that my great smile and curves.  (just had to add that in for me).

Somehow, I am sure these things were all present before your experience. 

[2bad2stay]

2B2S- Your right ON! and it does take work, perhaps the hardest part is, after finding the faults in ourselves, making an honest effort to "fix" it!


Charles-

I know that you are staying, but that doesn't matter in the big picture.  I had to do so much work on myself before I could even get to a place I could think about leaving. This is something I have thought about a lot in the past few months.  Why did it take me about 3 years to get out after realizing just how messed up everything truly was?  Because I didn't have the tools or the strength to do it at that point.  I had been slowly beaten down for about 12 years before I knew I had to do something to change the situation.  And I at least realized that the only person I could change was me.  So I started working on myself.  The stronger I got, the better I felt, and the more convinced I became that I had to leave.  And I was finally able to do it.  But it was a very long road.  And things keep getting better now that I am out.  I feel like am a much more competent, complete person than I have ever been.  I am not saying that you need to leave.  But I am glad to see that you are working on yourself even while staying.

[oneflewover]

...and along with that my great smile and curves.  (just had to add that in for me).

I have no idea what I will bring into a new relationship but I definately know what I will not bring and that is anything my ex offered up.

[2bad2stay]

and along with that my great smile and curves.  (just had to add that in for me).

Yeah, I'll bring those, too.  Like I can leave them at home.  : xoxo

[carolt0604]

My self esteem building list.   

[carolt0604]

Thanks PD! Yes they were just took me some time to find them again.   

[LivingWell]

Thanks, PDQ!  That the best post I've ever read.

L

[SOOOdone]

great question because it is challenging.

I will bring into the next relationship a realistic but not mistrusting position...I no longer will be demanding a person do anything differently than what they were doing before they met me...if they don't have a fulltime job etc...I will have to either accept it or move on because a person has to be able to live life the way they see fit before getting into a relationship, just like I am not going to radically change my lifestyle to conform to someone else's agenda. Basically I will be more accepting of another person and their choices. Being accepting does NOT mean I have to LIKE it...it means I have to make a decision if it is something I can live with or not and I have to be the one to make the decision and not manipulate the situation to suit me.

i will hopefully be much more respectful of the truth. I will respect my gut feelings more. I will accept my limitations and not kid myself into thinking..."oh, yes there are some eccentricities/problems here, but it's better than nothing and besides, he loves me."

I will not sell myself short.

I will make sure my current life is full and happy before getting into a relationship of an intimate nature.

If I feel pressure coming from the other person I will be alarmed instead of flattered into thinking I'm so wonderful.

If I am disrespected in any way it will be deal breaker.

[hopethereishope]

Great question and great answers! I don't want to repeat what the others have said.

I'll only add - love for life.

And for stability - total acceptance of reality instead of interpreting it, and differentiating between causes and motives.

[DearStarling]

Quote

I started to notice that her dirty style affected my style of play. I started playing dirty, pulling out my own little trick plays.

Ok so I TOTALLY do this! The only sense I can make of it is that I am trying to make him see how it feels. Which, admittedly, is a futle attempt. He never perceives it the way it was meant, he sees the problem with my actions. Which is ironic because of course,  he's basically judging himself. How can I make him see that? Isnt it a trait of BPD to project their shortcomings on to others? Because all the complaints he has of me [[reacting like a child, being angry, bossy, etc]] are EXACTLY what I've always thought about him. He actually told ME that I have an anger problem! I know none of you know me, but wow, you would never ssay that about me, TRUST ME ON THAT.

[WhatToDo47]

IMHO, I think the lesson to be learned for all of is to see the rality, and recognize it, rather than believe in the dream, and give everything of ourselves to try to make it happen.

Looking back, it is very clear to me that the outcome was predetermined, and I did nothing but give of myself to delay it. Kinda like being out at sea, and being in a boat with a big hole in it. I bailed and bailed and bailed and bailed, until I had no energy left to bail. I bailed because first of all, I thought I could do something about it. Secondly, I valued the boat more than me to the point of wearing myself out completely bailing, instead of realizing that the boat was going to sink, and using my energy to swim to shore. After bailing, I had no energy left to swim, and everything I worked for was still sinking, and I took the brunt of that blame. The boat was going to sink. Period. It isnt my fault that it was sinking, but it is now my fault that I will drown, because I decided to waste my enegy bailing, instead of swimming. Thats my lesson, what about yours?

This is one of the most helpful analogies to why I stayed and how it ultimately turned out that I've ever read.

The very first time I talked to some spiritual mentors and my T (who is also a religious leader) RIGHT after she left, they told me that she is drowning tied to a boat with a giant hole, and that I better swim to safety or I'll drown, too.

Time to swim to shore.