"I feel guilty"

[Think About It....]

So kids were with us last week (with their mom w/o xmas).  Not one day went by that mom didn't send an email or call or have the children call to ask us to go there for one reason or another.  Then she asked us to pick them up early.

So the kids were with us last week. DH took them to the docs because SD12 has had serious throat infections over the last 2-3 mths or so. Mom refused to take her to docs when she asked repeatedly after statign that she had a sore throat and she could not sleep for 2 nights. 

Doc confirmed that mom shoudl have taken her to a clinic immediately. (not a week later when we took her) Doc not happy about the whole thing. She interviewed the kids and asked some pointed questions - Did you tell mommy that your throat was sore? Yes. Did you ask her to take you to the doctor's? Yes. Did she take you? No. Does mommy know that you had other throat infections it was serious and you were on medication before? Yes.

Doc explained to DH that the infection is too far gone now and she will need surgery. She wrote a script for SD12 for now to alleviate some of the swelling, but she will be slated for surgery in the next few weeks.

Doc told DH that she is writign a report and will make available for court if he wants it - and she is incl in it that mom failed to provide adequate medical care for the children while in her care.

All three kids needed meds as they all ended up with throat infections.

Kids get home and SD9 calls mom.  They had already been at our house for 2 days at that point and they had tried on numerous occasions to call her and l/msgs for her. At last count, it was 6 times in the last 2 days.

Mom finally answered the phone. SD9 tells her that SD12 has to have surgery 'because mommy should have taken her last week and she didn't"

Mom hung up and did not speak to the kids for the remainder of the week. Despite their repeated attempts to contact her. 

Mom of course went back and forth with DH about many things included how WE brainwashed the kids, etc...

So the entire week goes by and the kids didn't speak to her other than the 5 min phone call w/SD9. 

I checked kids emails and mom sent a threatening email to SD12 about her 'lying' to the doc. Here is the thing - all communication with mom was done via email. When she called, we did not answer the phone. She l/msg and we responded by email. So EVERYTHING including DH tellign her that SD12 needs to go to the clinic close by mom's house.  So I see the email to SD12 threatening her and stating that she lied and now mommy is going to get into trouble because the doctor has written a report that 'can be used against mommy later' and that she had better retract what she said if she knows what's good for her.

I fwd that email to DHs acct, then printed it. Then I deleted it from SDs account before SD12 could see it.

Then I check SD9's email acct. Mom has sent a long email telling her that she is so lonely and she really wishes SD would call her once in a while and how she is so utterly lonely and she needs SD to be there to make her happy.

I did not delete that email, but I did fwd it to DHs acct. SD9 has not checked her emails yet anyway, so I'm still on the fence about whether or not I should leave it there.

So last night I guess mom has been thinking about the trouble that she may or may not be in over her refusing to take the kids to the docs on her parenting time. And seh finally phones.  The kids had called and l/msgs twice yesterday already.

She calls, I answer. She says - Where are my babies? I've been waiting for them to call me. I say - They called you twice today already. They are still waiting for you to return their calls from last week.

and she says - oh...well are they available. I say - SS7 is in bed as it's after 8 pm. And there are no phone calls after 8 and I know that you are aware of that. 

She says - well can't i just say hi to them?

So I let ehr talk to SD9.

I get DH to tell SD that she is to say a quick hello and then off the phone. Past behaviour has shown that we NEED an 8 pm rule for phoen calls otherwise the kids do not go to bed since she is so destructive on the phoen with them and then they cannot sleep.

So he tells SD9 that. She was on the phone with her mother for no more than 10 mins. She gets off the phone and hands it to SD12.

then SD9 comes upstairs and sits in the kitchen with me. And she says "I feel guilty."

I say - why do you feel guilty? What about?

And she says she doesn't know.

I say, "well what has happened to make you feel guilty. Can you think of something?"

She says - well you know when you maybe should have done something and then didn't and you feel bad?

I say yes. She says - is that guilty? I say yes. She says  - Okay, then I feel guilty.  and I say - well what were you supposed to do that you think you didn't do? And she just shrugs and says "I dunno. Nevermind"

and she walks away.

So DH brought her to the T this morning - no official update yet from DH. But we talked and reminded him to talk to the T about how she said she felt guilty after talking to her mother and then wouldn't open up about it. So he did and he said that the appt is over, but he is still out, so he'll update me later, but there is LOTS to talk about.

I know that mom is the cuprit for SDs guilt. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out - 2 seconds off the phone and she feels guilty. RIGHT BEFORE BED. UGH.  So I am merely speculating, but I think it's a culmination of various things. It was SD9 who told her mother that they all had throat infections and that SD12 needs surgery now because mom didn't take her in immediately.  But I also think that mom has made another attempt to snag SD9 in her corner and rope her in by making her feel guilty for not continuing to call her even though SD9 finally gave up after the 12th msg left for mom and then we went out of town and not once did she ask to call her mother (out of the ordinary).  So I think SD9 was feeling kind of good about just saying - well, i called and left all those messages and she didn't call me back, now i'm not going to call her. And then mom calls and probably made her feel guilty for not continuing to call and harrass her mother and leave messages that mom won't return.

UGH. Poor kids. Just when you think they are starting to come around and see the light a little, she just spins her web...and then we are back at square one.   

[marlo6277]

So kids were with us last week (with their mom w/o xmas).  Not one day went by that mom didn't send an email or call or have the children call to ask us to go there for one reason or another.  Then she asked us to pick them up early.

So the kids were with us last week. DH took them to the docs because SD12 has had serious throat infections over the last 2-3 mths or so. Mom refused to take her to docs when she asked repeatedly after statign that she had a sore throat and she could not sleep for 2 nights. 

Doc confirmed that mom shoudl have taken her to a clinic immediately. (not a week later when we took her) Doc not happy about the whole thing. She interviewed the kids and asked some pointed questions - Did you tell mommy that your throat was sore? Yes. Did you ask her to take you to the doctor's? Yes. Did she take you? No. Does mommy know that you had other throat infections it was serious and you were on medication before? Yes.

Doc explained to DH that the infection is too far gone now and she will need surgery. She wrote a script for SD12 for now to alleviate some of the swelling, but she will be slated for surgery in the next few weeks.

Doc told DH that she is writign a report and will make available for court if he wants it - and she is incl in it that mom failed to provide adequate medical care for the children while in her care.

All three kids needed meds as they all ended up with throat infections.

Kids get home and SD9 calls mom.  They had already been at our house for 2 days at that point and they had tried on numerous occasions to call her and l/msgs for her. At last count, it was 6 times in the last 2 days.

Mom finally answered the phone. SD9 tells her that SD12 has to have surgery 'because mommy should have taken her last week and she didn't"

Mom hung up and did not speak to the kids for the remainder of the week. Despite their repeated attempts to contact her. 

Mom of course went back and forth with DH about many things included how WE brainwashed the kids, etc...

So the entire week goes by and the kids didn't speak to her other than the 5 min phone call w/SD9. 

I checked kids emails and mom sent a threatening email to SD12 about her 'lying' to the doc. Here is the thing - all communication with mom was done via email. When she called, we did not answer the phone. She l/msg and we responded by email. So EVERYTHING including DH tellign her that SD12 needs to go to the clinic close by mom's house.  So I see the email to SD12 threatening her and stating that she lied and now mommy is going to get into trouble because the doctor has written a report that 'can be used against mommy later' and that she had better retract what she said if she knows what's good for her.

I fwd that email to DHs acct, then printed it. Then I deleted it from SDs account before SD12 could see it.

Then I check SD9's email acct. Mom has sent a long email telling her that she is so lonely and she really wishes SD would call her once in a while and how she is so utterly lonely and she needs SD to be there to make her happy.

I did not delete that email, but I did fwd it to DHs acct. SD9 has not checked her emails yet anyway, so I'm still on the fence about whether or not I should leave it there.

So last night I guess mom has been thinking about the trouble that she may or may not be in over her refusing to take the kids to the docs on her parenting time. And seh finally phones.  The kids had called and l/msgs twice yesterday already.

She calls, I answer. She says - Where are my babies? I've been waiting for them to call me. I say - They called you twice today already. They are still waiting for you to return their calls from last week.

and she says - oh...well are they available. I say - SS7 is in bed as it's after 8 pm. And there are no phone calls after 8 and I know that you are aware of that. 

She says - well can't i just say hi to them?

So I let ehr talk to SD9.

I get DH to tell SD that she is to say a quick hello and then off the phone. Past behaviour has shown that we NEED an 8 pm rule for phoen calls otherwise the kids do not go to bed since she is so destructive on the phoen with them and then they cannot sleep.

So he tells SD9 that. She was on the phone with her mother for no more than 10 mins. She gets off the phone and hands it to SD12.

then SD9 comes upstairs and sits in the kitchen with me. And she says "I feel guilty."

I say - why do you feel guilty? What about?

And she says she doesn't know.

I say, "well what has happened to make you feel guilty. Can you think of something?"

She says - well you know when you maybe should have done something and then didn't and you feel bad?

I say yes. She says - is that guilty? I say yes. She says  - Okay, then I feel guilty.  and I say - well what were you supposed to do that you think you didn't do? And she just shrugs and says "I dunno. Nevermind"

and she walks away.

So DH brought her to the T this morning - no official update yet from DH. But we talked and reminded him to talk to the T about how she said she felt guilty after talking to her mother and then wouldn't open up about it. So he did and he said that the appt is over, but he is still out, so he'll update me later, but there is LOTS to talk about.

I know that mom is the cuprit for SDs guilt. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out - 2 seconds off the phone and she feels guilty. RIGHT BEFORE BED. UGH.  So I am merely speculating, but I think it's a culmination of various things. It was SD9 who told her mother that they all had throat infections and that SD12 needs surgery now because mom didn't take her in immediately.  But I also think that mom has made another attempt to snag SD9 in her corner and rope her in by making her feel guilty for not continuing to call her even though SD9 finally gave up after the 12th msg left for mom and then we went out of town and not once did she ask to call her mother (out of the ordinary).  So I think SD9 was feeling kind of good about just saying - well, i called and left all those messages and she didn't call me back, now i'm not going to call her. And then mom calls and probably made her feel guilty for not continuing to call and harrass her mother and leave messages that mom won't return.

UGH. Poor kids. Just when you think they are starting to come around and see the light a little, she just spins her web...and then we are back at square one.   

[marlo6277]

Okay, DH updated me on the T appt this morning for SD9.  SIGH. I feel horrible for her. She is trying so hard to protect her mom, but at the same time, you can see that she wants protection herself.   

DH said that the T made some pretty good headway for he first time ever.  The T has been workign so hard with SD to get to this point.

She said at first she didn't want to open up about her guilt, but eventually acknowledged it, but again, quickly tried to change the subject.

She, for the first time, recalled her SFs suicide attempt. She recalled her mother sending the kids to the basement after SDs found him covered in blood. She recalled the ambulance coming and then mommy rushign them out the door for the school bus.

She talked about worrying about her SF but wouldn't say what kind of worry...Worry like she is scared? Worry that he will do something? Worry that he is sad? She wouldn't say. Just worried about him.  So T is not sure if she is using the word worry to replace "afraid" or if she is using the word worry to replace something else...

She talked about how upset she was when she didn't see her mother for over a month.  She stated that her mom kept saying that she would see her, then would reneg and post pone until it was over a month gone by without seeing her.  She stated that she "thought her mom had left her for good this time".  That line breaks my heart...Not that her mother had left her. That she thought her mother had left her for good this time.  That says so very much to me.

T said now she has some concrete info that she can talk to mom about. Stuff that has come directly from SD herself. Mom will think it came from us, but the T said that she will tell her point blank - SD came out with it all on her own and these are serious incidents of abandonment and then she can finally ask mom why she didnt' say anything to the T or to the psych.  Mom will be reeling, I am sure...

I'm glad that SD felt comfortable enough to finally say something. The difference this time over all the other times (or most of them), is that SD had been with us for over a week.  Without a visit with her mom. SDs appts are always on Mon Mornings...And they come home from their mom's on Sun.  And the whole weekend SD has spent being grilled as to what is being said in T.  That was the difference this time over other times.

I hate the hurry up and wait of getting her through this...I wish I could take her pain away, but I can't. 

[Buff]

I say - why do you feel guilty? What about?

And she says she doesn't know.

I say, "well what has happened to make you feel guilty. Can you think of something?"

She says - well you know when you maybe should have done something and then didn't and you feel bad?

I say yes. She says - is that guilty? I say yes. She says  - Okay, then I feel guilty.  and I say - well what were you supposed to do that you think you didn't do? And she just shrugs and says "I dunno. Nevermind"

I think they need to know that they have been duped at that point, they just don't know it.  Kids have this inward tendency to try and reconcile their bad feelings about a parent within themselves.  This is why being alone with a BPD without healthy buffering is so important, I beieve.  I would almost expect the kids to get some sort of projection when the bp's are spiraling down, like mommy was.  It was great that she felt comfortable to talk with you.  But, sometimes our feelings lie to us, and that can happen to kids, too.  What do you think would have happened if you validated that she was conflicted, which she assessed as guilt, and then affirmed her ability to make choices without feeling guilty, as long as they were choices that she was allowed to make.  Reinforce the things that she had ownership of, and back up the healthy thinking that should accompany the decisions.  Otherwise, I think the kids grow up second-guessing themselves.

Really crummy that they child has to have surgery to correct the damage of the infection.  Clearly the kids need to have a way to communicate these things without mommy feeling that she's being indicted.  BPDs are very distracted people...things can go on right under their noses and they can't see them.  It's not an excuse, but it may be a way to explain what happened without thinking that she really doesn't care about the kids.  Common sense courses of action for us are not possible often times for the bp's, and the kids suffer.  It takes a lot of creativity to have a safety net while they are in BPD's care, without appearing like mommy is a monster.  It would seem that there has to be some redundancy in taking care of the kids so that this doesn't happen again, a teaming approach that puts the kids' wellbeing ahead of the ex-relationship drama.  And it that is not possible, then to have the courage to move to a legal arena to make the choices that are best for the kids.  It's apparent in your thread that you carefor them, which they will always thank you for.  You're choosing them, and they know it deep down.  Grace to you as you move through these frustrating times to find joy in being a family that has to work with a momy with a mental illness.

Peace, Buff

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[Derrah]

My heart just tears in two when I hear of children who are caught in such traumatic and difficult situations! While chaos is clearly present in one aspect of their lives, thank goodness they have you and their father as stabilizing forces. At their ages, so much of what they experience will be beyond their ability to articulate and even understand on a conscious level.

I have a 12-year-old son, so he is at a different developmental level from your girls - but even still when I talk to him I try to keep things pretty concrete. When he talks about feeling guilty, I try to tell him that feeling guilty can be helpful, because it can teach us about ourselves. Feeling guilty tells us that we have done something (thought something, etc...) that has made us uncomfortable. I talk to him about how it is important to understand what was uncomfortable so we can know how to respond. In essence, I try to take the "guilt" out of "guilty" and use it as a teaching tool for some level of self understanding.

It is great that she is willing to talk to you. You are a safe person for her. She needs and will continue to need safe people in her life as she grows up!

[marlo6277]

Thanks Buffie and Derrah for responding.

Buffie - you are right. I could have used that opportunity to validate SD in a different way. I was unable to figure out how to get her to open up, but at the same time I didn't want to come out and point out the obvious that she was trying to hide - she felt guilty immediately following the convo with her mother.

The following day, she spoke to her mom. This time I was already in her room goign through her clothes as to what to keep and what to donate - so I had a legit excuse to be in the room when she happened to talk to her mom.

It was amazing...The first thing she told her mom was how she didn't sleep the night before after talkign to her on the phone.  Then there were a lot of 'uh huhs' and 'yas' and 'not reallys' and 'sorta' and 'kinda'  ...then i could tell she was feeling increasingly uncomfortable. I attempted to hold up some clothes for her to give me the thumbs up or down on, then she finally said 'Mom, Marlo is RIGHT HERE in my room.  I can't answer that.'

Then the subject got changed quickly and then within seconds her mother had to go.  I felt bad for SD that her mother was grilling her on the phone about god knows what and finally she had to say that I was sitting right there and couldnt' answer the barrage of questions.  When SD got off the phone, she made light of the situation and just said "Sometimes mommy asks me lots of questions about you and daddy. I didn't want to answer them this time."

I just said that was fine and I understand that it might put her in an uncomfortable position and I'm sorry if she felt like she was put on the spot.

Derrah - I will try to use your terms of feeling guilty as a tool to learn something about ourselves. I think the kids might be receptive to that - mainly SD9.  Thanks for that. 

************

On Another note, mom did not speak to the kids after that phone call on the Monday night.  The kids went all week without speaking to her after that.  On Thur, she sent an email to DH saying how they are calling for a 'storm' and she might not be able to get the kids 'despite the winter tires on the van'.

We knew that it was coming...The 'storm' they were calling for were 'trace amounts of snow'. She asked DH what 'our forecast' said. He responded one liner - less than 1 cm of snow.

The following day (fri), she emailed DH letting him know that SF had been in and out of hospital all week with pneumonia and he is horrendously sick and their daughter was going into the docs that morning for being horrendously sick as well.  That's it. Just the statement, nothing else.  This is what she does in hopes that DH will say - maybe the kids should stay here this weekend then. Then it is not her actually bailing on the kids - HE made the decision.

No bite. He didn't respond. He was off on Friday though (as he broke his eye socket on Wed playing hockey - took a puck in the eye  ), but he made sure to not be home when it was time to get the kids.  Instead, he just went down adn waited down the street from the school to see if she actually showed up or not.  And she didn't. But SF with pneumonia did. I guess he was attempting to save her butt and when she refused to come and get the kids, he drove out here instead (as he does every week, clearly ill or not, so she doesn't miss her time with them).

They apparently drove by our house (2 blocks from school in the wrong direction), and then continued on.

Then we got a phone call at 7 am on Sat morning - SS7 wondering why daddy wasn't home when they got picked up becuase he wanted to get the playstation and bring it back to mommy's house so he would have it for hte weekend. (PS2 belongs at mommy's and she sent it at xmas time when kids came back to our house).

I told DH that he would just have to live without it for the weekend and mommy would have to amuse the old fashioned way instead of keeping him holed up in his room all weekend playing it.

DH told SS that he would make sure it came back to mommy's on Sunday (today) when he picked them up.

DH and I talked a little about how that was going to work out - the fact that SS had no electronics at his mom's house to keep him occupied and out of her hair, but we agreed that it would be good for her to actually be compelled to do something with them finally.

This morning, she sent DH an email.  Because SS was not kept in his room all weekend playing PS2, he got into trouble with his older sisters (my SDs - there are 2 other girls at mom's house younger - one 3 yrs old and the other 8 mths).

So I guess SD12 got angry with him and threw a hairbrush at him.

Mom sent the email explaining that she stood over SD with her own hair brush and threatened her "How would you like it if I did it to you?"  Mom claims that she was telling us first because DH often 'misconstrues' what the kids say about her.  And rest assured, she would never hit her with the hairbrush. (But she has punched her in the head in the past as well as dragged her down a flight of stairs by the hair to her bedroom, among other things).

In her email, she told DH that she thought it might be best if the kids stayed here more often on the weekends so they could 'spend time with their friends' as it would seem that they are having problems at school becuase they don't get to see much of their friends on weekends.  (Keep in mind - this is the ONLY time that the kids see their mother - she does not come out during the week to anything that they have going on, she barely speaks to them on the phone during the week either). 

DH recalled the conversation he had with her at xmas time when he picked them up - how she said it was too difficult to have them there when there was no school. 

DH responded that he thought it would be good for all three kids to stay here more on weekends so that they could see their friends.

She then responded - "I will be sad to see them go, because you made me, but maybe you and I can work something out that I'll see them more in the summer months.  I just want them to be happy."

Of course we all know that she will not excercise extra time seeing them anytime. She was supposed to see them longer at xmas to make up for missed weekends in November and she instead emailed asking us to pick them up earlier than orginally planned, never mind after being there longer already.

DH did not respond to her last email. Nor will he. He said that he is just happy that they will be here more on weekends, limiting her time with them as much as possible since she is clearly having a breakdown of some sort with them again. 

I feel bad for SD9, who will  not understand it. She may perceive it as her mother abandoning her again. I worry greatly about that. I do not worry about SD12 or SS7 as much.  SD12 will likely be happy about seeing her friends and SS7 is very 'go with the flow' and he'll just do whatever.

Both the T and the psych said that it is in SD9s best interest to have limited contact with her mother since it is very enmeshed and parentified and she needs to break away from that, so limiting the contact would be a good thing - even if she doesn't see it that way.  The psych was going to talk to mom about this in March. And explain that she was going to recommend the kids only go to her house once a month.  I guess when she does that, it won't come as much of a surprise to mom when that happens.  She'll likely just blame us for it and say that we had something to do with it and it wasn't good enough that she gave up one weekend, now she has to give up 2...I can see it now. I'll take whatever blame she throws at me if it makes her feel better about it in her own mind. Whatever. My concern is for the kids. 

When a mental health professional is telling us all that the kids need less contact with their mother, then I'll do what it takes.  I just wish that the judges see it that way.  But perhaps, come March, that will be enough finally. Who knows. Nothing has been enough thus far.

SD9 has an appt tomorrow with the T.  Then DH and I have a meeting her after SD goes back to school.  This meeting should be interesting...sigh. 

[Buff]

Hey Marlo,
you are doing a great job given the circumstances you have to work within.  The great thing is that you care...you have an unselfish motive to love the kid through these difficult times...as if Junior High and High School were not emotionally traumatizing enough, add all this stuff and it can really stink.  You are providing a wonderful example of kindness, unselfish tending to her needs, which is HUGE with kids.  I know all of this stuff seems like navigating through a bowl of spaghetti, but she will emerge with a greater sense of respect and love for you, because you loved her in the way she needed most.  Keep up the good work...you're applying energy in a way that will give you the best results in the long run.   BPDs can fight very nasty, and kids will be confused as they try to figure out the disconnects...but in the end, they will know what true love looks like, the love you are choosing to show, to demonstrate.  Please don't beat yourself up for a transgression here or there, and don't take words BPDmommy spreads about you as valid...they are not.  Give yourself some breathing room, and give yourself some grace, and while you're at it, a pat on the back, cause you're doing great!    

Peace, Buff

I guess looking at this I abused the word great...insert enormous, vast, big, grand, eminent, distinguished, impressive, remarkable, skillful, talented, notable, as appropriate...all these words work to describe the...fantastic...work you're doing!

[marlo6277]

Buffie - Bowl of spaghetti.  I have never heard it put quite that way, but that is exactly how I feel. Pass the cheese please! 

Thanks for listening to me and thanks for the encouragement.  It's very difficult to navigate this course from the sidelines.  But like a good coach does, I guess you can't get on the field and make the play for them.  All you can do is give them pointers and encouragement and hope for the best.  And a pep talk when they fumble.  And in the end, everyone blames the coach anyway!

It's been great having you guys and gals here to bounce stuff off of.  I truly do appreciate it!  x

[Derrah]

In her email, she told DH that she thought it might be best if the kids stayed here more often on the weekends so they could 'spend time with their friends' as it would seem that they are having problems at school becuase they don't get to see much of their friends on weekends.  (Keep in mind - this is the ONLY time that the kids see their mother - she does not come out during the week to anything that they have going on, she barely speaks to them on the phone during the week either). 

Isn't it amazing ... the thought of a "normally adjusted parent" shirking responsibility and time with their children is tragic (although I can't think of any normally adjusted individuals who would do this!), but through the lens of dysfunction, this may actually be a blessing in disguise! Although abandonment from a parent is certainly painful for children, maybe they will actually be spared several layers of chaos.

My children's therapists have made similar suggestions as yours. I have been told that my 15 year old daughter has no business being in any kind of relationship with her father right now. And my daughter has been pretty firmly no contact with him for months now. My son used to spend time (limited) with my husband before he got into recovery for alcoholism and therapy for anger. I was a mess when my son was with him - not knowing what he would be exposed to, hear, etc... I had to get a lawyer involved so that my husband would tell me where he was living (and where my son was). Truly crazy! As much as my son misses his father, I'm not sure which is worse - being in the presence of someone who is clearly not well - or feeling abandonment by your father. Go figure!

I second Buffie. These children are so fortunate to have you in their lives! You are modeling for them what a healthy parent/child relationship looks like. This will anchor them as they grow up.

Blessings to you!

[marlo6277]

Oh Derrah...how do we find our selves in this tangled web that someone else has weaved?  But we do.  I'm sorry to hear of your daughter and son's struggles with their dad. 

I agree that it is a blessing in disguise - but it will not be perceived that way by my SD9. 

I really truly believe that she will feel perhaps some relief of not having to go to her mom's every weekend, but then that will attract the guilty feelings as well.  I think she will also feel guilty for not being there with her mom, too.  Her mom has made it clear that SD is responsible in some strange way for her happiness and therefore she can never be happy, unless she is with SD9.  SD feels a great obligation to her mother, even though she may feel some relief not being forced to be there with her mother and having to be provider for her mother's amusement and care.

I mostly do worry about the repercussions of all of this to her.  The kids were present when mom made the comment about it being too hard on her to have them when there is no school.  So even if she does blame DH and I, the kids will know that she is responsible as well - they heard every word she said. 

I cannot imagine being them. 

[blackandwhite]

Marlo,

Hugs to all of you. You've gotten a lot of great feedback. One idea that might help you and your SD through all of this is to realize that when SD is feeling/talking about "guilt" she's very likely actually feeling shame, and toxic shame at that. Guilt is about something you did or didn't do that conflicts with your own moral code. You might say that SD feels guilty because her inability to take care of her mother conflicts with her moral code. The code probably consists of Take Care of Mother.

But underneath that is something deeper. Shame is about who you are. There's something wrong with you. She feels ashamed of who she is. She feels like a failure, selfish, and unlovable.

We all know how incredibly difficult it is as an adult to maintain a sense of self amid the projections, blaming, accusations, distorted thinking, etc. that is unfortunately the lot of a person intimate with a BPD sufferer. For a child, the task is so much harder. As your SD is forming her sense of self, she's doing it in the midst of that maelstrom, and it's causing her to see herself as unworthy. The good news is, she's still forming her sense of self. So there's lots of opportunity to build and repair.

I think you got all that figured out and that's why it's so heartbreaking for you. I hope your DH has a chance to mention the "I feel guilty" statement to her T, as it's important. And you and her dad can work with her to think about what guilt really means. Talk to the T about strategies to help her with shame, too.  x

B&W

[ForeverDad]

and she says - oh...well are they available. I say - SS7 is in bed as it's after 8 pm. And there are no phone calls after 8 and I know that you are aware of that.

She says - well can't i just say hi to them?

So I let her talk to SD9.

I get DH to tell SD that she is to say a quick hello and then off the phone. Past behaviour has shown that we NEED an 8 pm rule for phone calls otherwise the kids do not go to bed since she is so destructive on the phone with them and then they cannot sleep.

So he tells SD9 that. She was on the phone with her mother for no more than 10 mins. She gets off the phone and hands it to SD12.

then SD9 comes upstairs and sits in the kitchen with me. And she says "I feel guilty."

Sounds like 10 minutes was far too long.  Hindsight indicates it would have been better to stick to the 8pm rule.  Well, there will be a next time.

[marlo6277]

Thanks B&W  x

Funny you should mention talkign to the T about her feelings of guilt. He did actually.  On Monday past.  He told the T what she said after she got off the phone.  T said that she also talked to SD about it.  At first SD denied the whole thing and then with more talking, she finally admitted to feeling guilty after talking to her mom.  That caused SD to REALLY lay into me when I picked them up after school.  

She was very angry with me for telling DH and then DH telling the T about it.  I asked why she was so angry. DH overheard her telling me and he told the T. She said that the T said she felt guilty after talking to her mom on the phone.  I asked her - well were you speaking to your mom before you came upstairs and said you felt guilty?  And she said yes, but that wasn't the point.

And then she said something about how she didn't call her mom for 3 days when we were out of town. And I said - why would you feel guilty? You called mommy a dozen times and left messages for her before we went out of town. You did what you could and you called her as soon as we got back into town.  There was nothing to feel guilty about.  She said that she was just extremely angry with me for telling DH.  I reiterated that I did not tell him, he overheard her.  

SD12 jumped in at that time and reiterated that no matter how many times you call mommy, she'll only call you back when she wants something. I said not a word. I let the two of them work that out between them. SD9 argued that wasn't true. SD12 gave examples of the times her mother called and asked to speak to her and every time she listed, her mother wanted to make sure she did something for her mother.  SD9 at that point didn't say much.

I just kept out of the conversation at that point. I let them work it out.

You are right - I do believe that SD9 feels that she is damaged goods in a way.  I feel like that feels unworthy of some things.  She is bright girl, who is actually quite popular with friends at school. She is an excellent student and she can be very sweet.  She has improved ten fold since the school started again and back to a regular routine and less time with her mom.  But I can still tell that there is something missing.

I do feel like she feels there is something wrong with her. That she is unworthy of certain things and I have to reiterate how she is more important than this or that. How she and her brother and sister come first above all else.  That no matter what happens or what goes on in our daily every day lives, at the end of the day, they are what matters most.  I know that she hears me, but I also know that part of her truly doesn't believe it.

Tomorrow we will reiterate some things with the T about the guilty feelings and the possible feeling of abandonment about to come her way.

DH came home and just said that SD12 would probably benefit from more therapy as well.  (She went through 2 yrs of therapy a while ago) But I think she needs some more.  Her mother harped on her all wknd about how it was her own fault that she needs throat surgery and her mother is not to blame and how DH and I lied to the doctor and the doctor made a report against her about how she didnt take her to the doctors when she should have and now she has to have surgery and DH and I are to blame as we 'poisoned' the doctor's mind and told a bunch of lies.

SD12 said that she thinks she wants to talk to somebody about some things that happen at mom's house. Wow...So we will see if there is someone at the T's office who can talk to SD12.

When it rains, it pours!

Thanks for all your support.  It means more than you know.  x

[marlo6277]

Hey FD!  Ya you're right. 10 mins was far too long.  And it will just add to the point next time...stick to the rule.

Sometimes we have to test the waters a little every now and then to remind ourselves that it's still far too rough to head out there...This was one of those times that reminded us of why we had that rule. 

And next time, we won't forget. 

[DreamGirl]

SD12 jumped in at that time and reiterated that no matter how many times you call mommy, she'll only call you back when she wants something. I said not a word. I let the two of them work that out between them. SD9 argued that wasn't true. SD12 gave examples of the times her mother called and asked to speak to her and every time she listed, her mother wanted to make sure she did something for her mother.  SD9 at that point didn't say much.

I just kept out of the conversation at that point. I let them work it out.

  x

No one will understand them better than their own siblings.

I will often let the kids (all five of them) hash out how they feel, what they think, etc... only interjecting when voices are raised. My kiddos all have all kinds of dysfunction going on. It's a lot like group therapy.    

   DreamGirl

[Buff]

And kids really understand where the power centers are in the house (people with the greatest influence).  They will play to those, which I think looks like:

(1) if the BPD is the power center: kids learn abnormal behavior in response to the dysregulation, or

(2) if the non is the power center: kids grow up feeling safe to express emotions, voice needs, all the things we tend to take for granted.

In the end, it takes courage, understand and a lot of work to overcome the influence of the BPD in the home, but it helps the kids develop a better sense of self that allows them to move on from the nest better-equipped to take on the world.  Gaining control is like a wrestling match, using the tools to deal with the situations, calmly defending boundaries, motivated outside of F-O-G and re-engaging.

Best, Buff

[Derrah]

She was very angry with me for telling DH and then DH telling the T about it.  I asked why she was so angry. DH overheard her telling me and he told the T. She said that the T said she felt guilty after talking to her mom on the phone.  I asked her - well were you speaking to your mom before you came upstairs and said you felt guilty?  And she said yes, but that wasn't the point.

And then she said something about how she didn't call her mom for 3 days when we were out of town. And I said - why would you feel guilty? You called mommy a dozen times and left messages for her before we went out of town. You did what you could and you called her as soon as we got back into town.  There was nothing to feel guilty about.  She said that she was just extremely angry with me for telling DH.  I reiterated that I did not tell him, he overheard her.  

While I am sure it must be frustrating to be blamed here, I think it is great that she is able to tell you she is angry. You must really be a safe person to her for her to be willing to risk telling you how she feels! And what a great opportunity you are using to model how to respond when someone tells you they are angry with you. I bet we can pretty much guarantee that if she tried to stand up to her mom, the situation would play out much differently. I am so glad these girls have you in their lives!

[marlo6277]

Thanks Derrah  x

You can model it till you are blue in the face and sometimes it just doens't feel like you are getting anywhere...running on the hamster wheel.  I helps when others point out to you and acknowledge it. Cuz with pre-teens - you KNOW it's not going to happen!

But it certainly explains why validation is so important and I have to say, I haven't met a bunch of ppl with as much technique and ability to validate then the ppl on these boards! No wonder we all come here!