Do they love their children?

[Think About It....]

So I got pregnant by surprise. He has a 3 y/o who is temporarily in his brother's custody and though he was doing very good, due to out of town work couldn't get a lawyer..
He says he loves his daughter but isn't fighting to get her back even though I said I'd help him in any way possible!
He was unhappy about the pregnancy, but then said he was happy... and now whenever we get in fights he tells me he'll go on welfair forever and never give me a penny... and I just told him whatever if that's what u want I'll just say it isn't yours and he said good! He gets mad and tells me he doesn't want this baby! That hurts! Do they actually love their kids? Cuz I know we're just objects and they don't love us.
And.. how long do their mood swings usually last?

[Shna89]

So I got pregnant by surprise. He has a 3 y/o who is temporarily in his brother's custody and though he was doing very good, due to out of town work couldn't get a lawyer..
He says he loves his daughter but isn't fighting to get her back even though I said I'd help him in any way possible!
He was unhappy about the pregnancy, but then said he was happy... and now whenever we get in fights he tells me he'll go on welfair forever and never give me a penny... and I just told him whatever if that's what u want I'll just say it isn't yours and he said good! He gets mad and tells me he doesn't want this baby! That hurts! Do they actually love their kids? Cuz I know we're just objects and they don't love us.
And.. how long do their mood swings usually last?

[DreamGirl]

Hi Shna89...  x

It's a broad question and I don't know that it can be answered in broad terms like "Yes, of course they love their children", or "no, they don't know how to love their children.."  It's not so black and white. 

But, still in a broad sense... I think that a pwBPD struggles in being a parent. Simply because the person suffering from the disorder lacks certain basic skills in order to provide proper care and nurturing to a child... who like the pwBPD is a very needy creature.   

In my own personal situation... I believe that the mother of my stepdaughters is loving her daughters the only was she knows how. She tends to place her needs first and foremost over anyone else's, including her girls, but it's not because she doesn't love them, but because she lacks the ability otherwise. She is much like a child in that sense.

   DreamGirl

[goldstar]

As much as they are capable. Like DreamGirl said -- their wants, needs, feelings come first before anyone's, even their own children.  They can't seem to realize that they are the adult and need to behave like an adult.

Mood swings cycle? Depends on the person. My ex can go months sometimes.

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[tranch]

My wife loves our son. But everything is so black and white to them. So she'll paint him black just like she does me.

If she's not getting any of the right kind of attention from him, she says she's unloved, and that she does so much and no one appreciates. That she should kill herself because she's worthless or because she does so much yet no one appreciates her enough.

It's very rough. She'll have horrible days and wonderful days. And the horrible days make me wonder if they wonderful days are even worth it sometimes, because I dont' know exactly what it's doing to him.

[Imstillstanding]

My stbx BPDw is very loving and kind to our children ... in public. But when nobody is looking she can be very abusive in all kinds of ways. She will ignore my little ones as if they don't exist at all. I ask myself that question a lot. And if she does love them, she doesn't have the ability to show it in a normal way. Her mood swings went anywhere from 1 hr to 3 days. But you could tell she was exhausted after the 2nd day.

In my humble opinion: my BPDw was never shown love while growing up, only shame, guilt, verbal abuse, etc. That being said ... how would she know what love is, or how to give it to her kids, or even how to recieve it? If that wasn't something she was programed to do then how can she do it ... and how do I teach it to her now that she's grown up?

Maybe they just don't have the ability to love at all, even their own children (gasp). But maybe they have the ability to learn (sigh).

[30plusyears]

My BPXW is almost totally disengaged from our S22 and S23. Didn't even go to wedding or participate. Rarely resonds to thier attempts at contact. I have no idea if she loves them. She didn't want children to begin with, and she was always at a loss with how to care for them and how to "act" around them when others were present (holidays, birthdays, visitors, etc.). She wouldn't get up at night to feed when they were crying, etc. The BPD literature refers a lot to the "neglect" suffered by children of BPD mom, that  there is a detachment all the way from the womb forward. Something to deep for me to understand, about how the egg clings to the womb). Mothers supposedly attach with children very visually when the babies are very young, but often BPD mothers have a "thousand yard stare". There is published literature on the professional observations of BPD mom and baby, and then how baby grows up... what are the affects.

To BPXW, she probably THINKs she loves them, and in her own way, does. But that Love is probably much different than the way a Non-BP understands it.

The way I understand it, the child is a "threat" to the attention that BP gets from thier spouse... a distraction that becomes somewhat of an enemy.

[30plusyears]

ImStillStanding's observations, along with mine, get it right back to the whole question of whether BPD is primarily inherited genetically somehow, as a combination of early abuse, or all that along with neglect. My BPXW also has/had extremely detached and neglectful mother, and verbally abusive stepdad from age 7. Hard to say, and does it matter? I think it matters, since we are always trying to do the best for our children, and we are concerned about thier BPD parent behaviors around the kids. And now finding, later in life, how this all plays out in the young adult's behaviors.

[simplesimon]

Speaking as a child of a BPD mom,
It's not LOVE/HATE as well define it...we (children) are seen as an extension of the pwBPD and as long as we reflect/support/parent our pwBPD they "love" us.  The minute we stop, falter or wanna take a break they "hate" us.
I do believe that in her own way momster loves me, but it's not a healthy love or even a good feeling...plain old scary.
But that's just my opinion and preception.

[tranch]

Simplesimon,

I'm probably about to be divorcing my wife. I have a 3 year old son. My wife is great with him when she's...good. She doesn't yell at him yet or anything, but i'm sure very soon he's going to realize how she shuts down whenever he rejects her, and is cheerful whenever he gives her "love".

For the last 6 months or so, he's been really cheerful around me, and to be honest, probably half the time around her. But he rejects her a lot, or asks for me in a way that makes her feel rejected. I'm not sure exactly why. Maybe b/c she works less hours, he misses me more, maybe just a phase, I don't know. An example is sometimes in the morning, he'll come in to our room, and i'm gone, she says good morning! and he goes NO! I WANT DADDY.

Anyway, this happens when i'm home sometimes soon, like it's story time, we go into his room, she opens the door, and he says, NO I JUST WANT DADDY! I don't know what to do, b/c I want to "validate" his feelings, opinions, desires. I have told him, if he says something rudely, that he shouldn't talk sassy like that and when he says that to mom or dad it hurts our feelings. But I don't know what to do beyond that.

My wife says I'm "not on her side" and i don't know what she expects, she thinks i should be firmer or something, or maybe when he says those things, say at story time, she would want me to say, if you're being rude, I'm not staying in here with you.

I feel like the reason behind his actions could be that he's familiar with her unpredictable mood, where I always appear happy to him. I also feel that regardless, he may just want to spend time alone with me, and that's valid, but I try to tell him nicer ways to say it.

My question is, what kind of emotions did YOU have towards your mom at a young age? Like I said, I'm leaving soon I think. What advice do you have for me? He's still going to be spending a lot of time with mom, and it will be alone, which scares me a little, b/c I won't be there to give her a break if he's with her a full day.

I hope not to totally distract from this conversation, but I figured this issue is closely related to how you said your mom "loved" and "hated" you based on your actions.

[hopeful_romantic]

How do the children of BPD fathers tend to fare?  My uBPDx has a two year old with his ex, and even though I really have no say in the matter anymore I'm truly worried about this little girl.  Her mother isn't right either, and actually has a cps neglect case against her.  He rages at his daughter, to a point that he yells/screams at her and calls her horrible names.  She also went through a phase when the neglect/abuse on her mothers end was bad that she really wanted nothing to do with him (I think she was just lost) and seems to be getting into another one recently where she just doesn't really want to be around him... would rather go to grandma/grandpas, etc.  He has said things to me like "She doesn't love me, she'd rather be with my parents anyways so I'll just take her over there (he usually sticks around, but still)" or "Leave me alone, you don't want anything to do with me anyways".

I realize there is nothing I can do to help her... and that breaks my heart because I truly love her like my own... but I'm just kind of curious how daughters of BPD dads fare... does she stand a chance?

[qcarolr]

My situation is similar and different, but this question of how pwBPD love their children, and how to teach the little ones coping strategies for them to be healthy is on my mind every day. I had to stop therapy with my T as she only had very harsh things to say about my DD24 not being able to 'love' my gd5 that my dh and I have permenent custody of.

DD tells gd she loves her and misses her (dd no longer shares our home, is living homeless in a nearby small city with "her people" one is a bf). There is a lot of anger at me in particular that i have 'stolen' her child. A lot of rejection and abandonement issues underly that anger IMO. I have a circle of people around me saying to not allow DD visits at all. The reality for me is I cannot give up on DD's desire to have a relationship with her daughter, even if is it brief and sometimes end in anger at me, grammi, in front of gd.

I believe that DD stongly believes she "is a good mom" and her feelings of love for her children (her son age 3 has been adopted thru a foster/adopt process against DD's will) are very strong in her mind. This is her reality, even as she is being somewhat neglectful on a visit when she chooses to shower and take a nap instead of going to the park as was planned prior to the visit. Note: gd and I went to the park.

Her feelings of love for her daughter are the most intense, real thing that keeps her getting up everyday. And yes there is an unhealthy quality to this. So I am trying to empower this 5 year old to love her mom back, and to tell her mom wehn she needs to take a time out because ti is not working. THis is the reality of gd's life.

Am I a bad gramma for doing this? Only time will tell, but I think gd is doing a good job of speaking her mind, owning her feelings, and having a strong healthy self image. She is doing great in her life with friends in the neighborhood, at school in kindergarten, and in our home when it is just dh and I, which is most of the time. DD has a weekly opportunity to visit and can call any evening before bedtime. She chooses to call about once a week lately.

I am trying to leave it up to DD to create her relationship with gd.

Guess there are no "answers". Just making as safe and loving a home for my gd as I can while supporting that her mommy does love her even when she can't be here to care for her.

qcr x

This browser window keeps jumping so it is hard to continue typing. Hope I don't lose my post.

[targus2010]

I guess I have more questions than answers too. My BPDw and I are seperated ( for about the 15th time in 14 years), I have the kids s13, d10, d6, she does not want them, has not talked to me or them in months, she did not even acknowledge our daughters 10 year old birthday.  I also have the same question "Do they love their children?"   Is this just a game with her? Is she doing this to punish us?  Our other daughter will be having a birthday this Saturday, I am suere she will ignore that one to.

[Readytoquit]

My wife loves our son. But everything is so black and white to them. So she'll paint him black just like she does me.

If she's not getting any of the right kind of attention from him, she says she's unloved, and that she does so much and no one appreciates. That she should kill herself because she's worthless or because she does so much yet no one appreciates her enough.

It's very rough. She'll have horrible days and wonderful days. And the horrible days make me wonder if they wonderful days are even worth it sometimes, because I dont' know exactly what it's doing to him.

I get so sad watching my wife interact with my step son. He is very often the target of very mean comments regarding his typical teenage behavior. I feel my hands are tied, even though I sense he is hoping I will rush in and be the grown up when this happens. I feel like a coward when I don't protect him.

What is REALLY weird is if I make even SLIGHT correction to his behavior, I am being too harsh.

[qcarolr]

DD24 has gone no contact with gd5 it seems. I know at some point she will again accuse me of limiting her contact by not setting it up. I don't know what to say, or if I will say anything. I will certainly try not to defend my self or gd5. Gd5 wants no contact with her momma right now after the last two contacts when she was rebuffed by her mom - just ignored. GD doesn't want to talk about it. I have briefly talked to DD in past couple weeks, and she has not asked about gd, so I am not bringing it up.

some ways this is so much more peaceful.

gotta go meet the bus.
qcr x

[simplesimon]

I don't think it's ment as "punishment" in the classica sense.
My own experience is that momster hates/loves with the same intensity and has no way to HEALTHLY define the boundry.  It's one or the other...no in between.
The harshest reality of it all is that my "mommy" growing up was either great or I ran in fear.  No in between. 
Mostly my momster ignored anything I did "good" unless it could be twisted to reflect good on her.
It's not a game to them they feel entiled to treat us all like garbage cause "WE DID IT FIRST!"  at least to them. 
Sad but true.

[marlo6277]

I struggled with this question for a very long time (and sometimes still do).

I can say that I believe that BPDmom loves her children the way she knows how. I believe that she thinks she is a great mom. I believe that she thinks that she does everything for them including sacrificing her own needs.

Would I parent the way BPDmom does? No. Do I think she is a good mom?  I really can't say. My definition is different from hers judging by our different actions with my skids.

To me - it really doesn't matter whether or not she loves her children. What matters is whether or not the children feel loved themselves.

I can say that on occasion, they do feel loved by mom. And on occasion they do not. This is the part I struggle with most. Helping them cope with their feelings of abandonment, their feelings of insecurity and their feelings of being betrayed. 

My focus is much more productive when I concentrate on making sure I do my part to show the skids love, consistency and nurturing.

Does it help them? I hope so. They struggle within themselves and sometimes I wonder if I'm making it worse by showing them the love that they don't feel they get from mom. Am I making them realize that her love is just different?  Is that affecting them and causing them to act out more?

I will never know but what I do know is I cannot stop myself from loving them and hope that one day it helps them to realize I did the best I could under the circumstances. And so did mom.

[Starry]

My d's didn't want to spend the holidays with their father. He was devastated that they didn't want to go. Now I think this might be because the loss of face. He was planning to go with a group of people and now he has to face them telling that his kids are not coming. I think this because he hasn't seen them for this holiday and the moment he comes back and learns that my d has a sporting event tomorrow, he backs out, because he doesn't feel like it to accompany her, because it's a too long drive. Can you imagine? It seems to me that he hasnt the sense of responsibility to set aside his own needs and wants in favour of her. He just said: I'm not going to drive such a long way, although it's his time with the girls. Now way he would think about me: someone HAS to drive her.

So does he love her? I don't know. Maybe he just doesn't want to take the trouble to do the things it takes when you love someone. Love is as love does... Love is an act of will... Love is not a feeling, it shows off in one's deeds.

[tranch]

marlo,

I'm glad to hear your skids have you. I can totally imagine your feeling of "making it worse." I've tried to not be "too much fun" for my son before, like if my wife was really grumpy and I knew she probably was grumpy all day with him. I got over it though and now have as much fun as I can with him. Every ounce of love you give to them matters.

Starry and a couple others brought up a good point, love shows off in one's deeds. This works in both directions. My wife will overreact about something our son (3 y.o.) does, feeling rejected for example, and then will be very cold to him. It's sad, but I can already see him trying to cheer her up, make her laugh. I'm sure a lot of kids have a fake laugh, but my son's been doing this fake, awkward laugh a lot, and I feel like it may be from being around her, trying to keep the mood positive. I'm going to have to teach him that he doesn't HAVE to cheer her up, it's not his responsibility, and it's not his responsibility to fix her. I know it's different for pwBPD, but I don't think she's "loving" him at those times.

On the other hand, if she's having a horrible day, but is still managing to take care of him, and even smile and play with him (which I've seen her do), then she's loving him, even if she can't "feel" love for anyone at the moment.

[qcarolr]

My situation is having custody of my gd5, primary care for her since she was 9 months old. DD24 had lived with us off/on until a year ago when we basically evicted her. GD often tried to engage her, and even got some satisfaction from going in her room before daycare to give her a hug - whether DD woke enough to respond or not. After DD was gone from our home, there was letter contact for 2 months available - two 'loving, nice' letters to gd in that time. DD was in jail during this initial 2 months. Then only phone/text contact for 2 months - sometimes with GD directly but most often just a message to give her hugs  and say mommy loves you. Sometimes gd did not want to talk, sometimes I put on speaker phone anyway, all conversations were only a minute or two then gd said goodbye. We tried weekly visits - eating at Wendys, visit pet store or park. Usually started OK, but mostly ended badly with DD yelling at me - blaming me for her homeless condition. Even when asked to not do this, she sometimes intensified and even commented "I have no children - you stole my children" (she lost gs3 to adoption, into foster care at 5 mos and we refused to accept custody of any more gkids). I would stop the visits for a few weeks, back to phone contact until gd asked to see her momma. Then DD completed an old DUI sentence (difficult to comply with probation homeless) 30 days in jail - she wanted gd to visit, but gd did not want to see her until she was out of jail, and I did not want to take her to the jail anyway. GD asked to see her mom after she got out of jail, and wanted her to go to park for a picnic near our house. I picked up DD who came and fixed us all a  nice morning snack, took shower/started her laundry. Told me privately she really didn't want to go to park - I said that was gd's plan and encouraged her to go. She asked gd to watch a movie - OK. Then she got drowsy. Gd got a special blanket for her mom and tried to snuggle, but DD turned away and tried to sleep on couch. I knew she was holding back as gd tried to rouse her. So I took gd to park for a couple hours. When we returned, DD was ready to go back to the park she lives at with her homeless "people". Driving her back to town she started on the blame game, I pulled over at the next bus stop and asked her to get out. She refused and I asked for silence the rest of the way to drop her off, which she barely managed. She got out, gave GD a kiss through the window, and quietly told me she was only ncie to me or said she loved me when she needed something from me to survive being homeless. Since this last visit GD has not wanted contact with her mom.

I had gd with me at Walmart to get some boots and socks for her momma and called DD to ask a question. She said to tell gd she loved her and missed her, so I let gd talk to her on the phone - which she did for a couple minutes. Then gd picked out a warm, soft shirt for her mom as we left the store. When I delivered the shirt and shoes later (without gd), DD hugged the shirt as she walked away. Today she called me asking if I could stop by after work sometime to pick up a pink shirt she bought for gd as a thank you for the shirt gd had bought her. I said yes. If gd wants to, I will invite her to ride with me to pick it up. If not I will go alone.

I am leaving all contact totally up to gd. We talked about this at our family T session last week. After that session, at home, gd for the first time since August asked some questions about her momma and talked about being angry at her. I am trying to just listen, validate her feelings. Give her a sense of control about this that is appropriate for her 5 years of age.

Think it is important that gd knows her mom loves her, but that is not always available to be with her. And that sometimes we all feel angry with other people, but don't have to stay angry.

Gd calls me mommy more and more - kind of testing to see if I correct her. I have stopped reminding her I am grammi. I sometimes say, well yes I am her grammi-mommy here to keep her safe and love her and help her to grow up.

DD does love her and feels an intense amount of loss and pain around both her kids. Her strong belief in her feelings of love, and her ability to be a 'good' mom are her reality. The way she takes action with these beliefs is very skewed by her emotional dysregulation - very erratic and unpredictable. This has led to some serious neglect with both her kids in the past - though DD may not be able to acknowledge the reality of this to herself. If she took all this in, there would be so much intense negative feelings that she truly would not know how to survive. She has told me that she has tired many times to overdose - she always just wakes up in the morning. Her survival strategy is so grounded in projecting blame onto others - mostly me - she is able to move out of this pain state and stay alive. This is how I see it anyway, and how I interpret all I have read, heard, been told about BPD as it relates to DD. Her skewed reality and emotional dysregulation does not negate her feelings of love for her children - this love is very real. And she is unable to be a consistent, care-giving parent - which she may never be strong enough to accept as part of her reality.

So all I can do is accept that DD is who she is (RADICALLY ACCEPT), she may never be able to choose a therapeutic response to her emotional distress and make a change, and I will always love her and try to find safe ways to let her know I love her. For GD, I will always try to bring the fact that her mom believes she loves her, though based on reality of not being able to be her parent, to gd. And try my best to keep gd in a safe place related to her relationship with her mom. Part of this is teaching her the best coping strategies I can along the way as she grows and develops the ability to learn them.

Sorry this got so long - guess it is my therapy for tonight. Gotta go hug gd - she is getting a cold. It will be another long night.

qcr x

[DreamGirl]

My focus is much more productive when I concentrate on making sure I do my part to show the skids love, consistency and nurturing.

Does it help them? I hope so. They struggle within themselves and sometimes I wonder if I'm making it worse by showing them the love that they don't feel they get from mom. Am I making them realize that her love is just different?  Is that affecting them and causing them to act out more?

I will never know but what I do know is I cannot stop myself from loving them and hope that one day it helps them to realize I did the best I could under the circumstances. And so did mom.

What insightful and beautiful thoughts, marlo.

I think this is learning to let go of outcomes.  You get to love your stepchildren your way, and she gets to her way.  Not "better", not "worse"... just different.  

I just don't think we can control the outcomes like sometimes we so desperately try to. We have to all just do the best we can... and accept that the "best" coming from the disordered parent usually isn't going to coincide with what we perceive the best to be.

I think you are such a caring and good hearted person, marlo. These kiddos reactions and acting out aren't your burdens to bear.  It's theirs. It's all their own way of grieving and processing... learning to accept that just because mom may not be able to love them they think she should? Doesn't mean they weren't pretty gosh darned lovable... So much that their stepmama loved them every step of the way, even when they made it really hard for her.

That's what I think being a mama is all about.

    DreamGirl