PERSPECTIVES: From idealization to devaluation - why we struggle

[HazelJade]

The fact that the Abandoned Child vs Lonely Child has been discovered by some of you gives me a great joy; for people wired to _

[findingmyselfagain]

I can certainly identify with the Lonely Child. I believe I've been running away since I was a child. My mom favored my brother over me and was often harder (sabotaging me to some degree) on me though I was a likable child. I used to go to my grandparents as a refuge or go hang out in the woods with my dog. Looking back I recognize it more as an escape than something I truly chose to do. It was a defense against a difficult environment. Yes, my mom may not be borderline but certainly very temperamental with health issues. Much like my ex pwBPD. Surreall how our r/s likely mirrored my parents' r/s, etc. It's been a gift to see my tendencies and that somehow deep inside I don't believe (or don't act like I believe) I'm worthy of someone who will treat me well.

I'm working to change all of that now. To engage life and live it the best I can. To regain my trust in others. It can be done. One day at a time.

[nocrazy]

Non here:My particular flavour of Lonely Child is very good at never passing final judgment.  There is always more understanding to be gained, by hanging in there.  Loyalty and endurance DO get rewarded, in this world, often.  You DO uncover the treasure, after sifting through tons of dirt.  But my determination never to give up is a bit out of whack.  Exaggerated.  Sometimes some form of final judgment is needed, for action - for example, for me to definitely, finally, break off relations with my exgf.  Which I never managed to do.

My friends call me the most forgiving and resilient person. They act as if it is some valiant personality trait. In reality, it is like what you describe, and I guess there are very powerful positive things about this, but, in my 10 year r/s with my BPD/NPD, it was a living heck. I wanted to get out of that dirt, to stop looking for the treasure. I also could not manage to get out of the loyalty and put self preservation at the top of the list. I see now, it was self abuse. My Lonely Child was trying to win my fathers favor.

 It just blows my mind that someone can be so dependent on others, can get others to do stuff for them so easily and guiltlessly (a bit of envy on my part there, I think  ), can trample on others so heedlessly.  It's hard for me to comprehend this kind of behaviour as a stable personality, rather than as a phase or crisis which the pwBPD will grow out of.


I also have had moments of envy about how he could just be so guiltless, and have probably said it to him a million times. "I wish I was more like you...I wish I could be this sometimes..."
NO. I do not wish that.

Rotgut:She would latch on and eventually spoil virtually everything I was interested in.

Rotgut, mine would latch on to things and then devalue them over and over until I just hid them. ANything sacred to me went underground for fear of being annhilated.

 Acknowledgement: painted me black over a wrongdoing perceived 2 years ago...and silent treatment and text "not working for me". poof. done. 30 plus years of supposive best friend..

Ack, I have a 30 year friend with BPD who did this to me, as well. She came back after two years, and I gave her a copy of SWOE. She read it and entered therapy.

[juner]

My Lonely Child came from never being validated or acknowledged as anything other than almost an object, even though I was surrounded by people and things looked normal. As an adult, I had some success and also thought I was made of teflon because I cultivated independence and strength through hard work - not inner work, just work.

If it weren't for this site and follow-up research, I would never have been able to identify my dad as a narcissist - not diagnosed, I know, but it quacks and walks like a duck. So I felt like a zero/invisible growing up in some ways, but tried hard to overcome this. I buried those feelings, like how I felt when I was in my second year of college and my father didn't even know what school I was attending. I was an hour away from home. He didn't sound embarrassed in the least. It was just normal to never show an interest in me even though we lived under the same roof.

Just a small example, but a series of things like this made me primed for a bpd r/s, plus a couple of histrionic friendships, which I could write a book about. My siblings have had similar experiences. Talk about putting your needs last. I am a middle aged woman and it has taken me forever to finally take an indepth look at myself and ask, point-blank: what about me? What do I want? What am I willing to tolerate? I thank God every day for this site. It's really all about mental health and "doing the work."

acknowledgement, mirroring is a lot of work for them, but it feels good to the non. It's like they are copying your best qualities because they're seeking a reward and trying to fill an inner emptiness. You're also getting a payoff that fills a void. It's like looking into a mirror and seeing the good - or at least stuff that may be entertaining, stimulating and you seem validated for your talents. I guess as the Lonely Child is  just happy that someone seems so interested in them and needs them. But they grow tired of mirroring and we grow tired of the one-way street. They always turn on you. The disorder is in control.  I read somewhere here on the boards that the devaluing happens really early on, but remains hidden for a while. You think you're golden, but you're not. You never were. You're just filling a hole and you're being conditioned to keep it up and not step out of line, with subtle cues you're not even aware of.

HazelJade, I agree with the thinking that all the processing post-bpd-r/s can be seen as a gift, a lot more so if total NC is possible. With the sudden rupture in the r/s, the focus can shift - but it's a ton of work to push them out of your head and turn the attention on you, because maybe it was never there in the first place.

I often think most people on the Leaving board kept a key part of their integrity intact, despite having Lonely Child traits and facing bpd emotional abuse, or they wouldn't be here, determined to heal and grow stronger.

[maria1]

The Lonely Child v AC gave me goose pimples as I read it. I'm the Lonely Child and I've never seen me described before. I'm also attracted to other Lonely Childs and can see that they are strong, independent, sensitive people. I've been waiting all my life for someone to 'get me' in the way my ex seemed to. But he didn't.

I realised before I knew about the bpd that I was projecting qualities onto him that maybe weren't there. Because I loved him, was attracted to him, but most of all because I desperately want to be loved and noticed.

My parents were good people. But they were wrapped up in their jobs and my father, in particular was wrapped up in himself. I'm only just beginning to realise that he always put his needs above everybody elses. The thing is that's what men did in those days so it doesn't seem that unusual.

I was the youngest of two and my older brother demanded all the attention. I was never a problem really. And I was never really noticed. Except when I was meeting an egotistical need of my father's eg. acting in a play. That was about him having a talented daughter, not me being talented.

And my ex noticed me like nobody else ever had- it was uncomfortable, too much at times but it filled a gaping hole in me.

The stuff about always looking for understanding really resonates with me- I was always looking for it with my ex. He was always asking me for answers about why he behaved in certain ways then as time went on and I began to see that behind the crisis things weren't going to get better; that the issues we kept overcoming just brought new issues because he created them, he started to say I analyse everything too much.

I said no I don't it's just the way I am. Lonely Child vs AC. We didn't get each other at all after all.

And, ironically or maybe not ironic at all, now Lonely Child is completely unnoticed worse than ever before as BPD wipes out the fact that we ever existed to them. Playing out childhood all over. Painful but oh so familiar.

So... What does an Lonely Child do once they know they are an Lonely Child? Apart from understand themselves quite a lot more and be wary of further dysfunctional relationships?

[acknowledgement]

Great Question! What does lonely child do now that they are aware and recognize themselves! I think we start to say/act/believe:
 "WHAT DO I WANT...from life, relationships,
WHAT CAN I DO FOR MYSELF...
What makes ME happy besides FIXING RESCUING..
.what makes me feel good when I am NOT HELPING SOMEONE OR NOT FIXING SOMEONE?
Who am I?
What do I want to do?
 How do I want others to treat me?
I can feel already, when we explore these questions, start to answer them and live by them, that we will NOT attract BPDs because, as my bpd friend who abandoned me told me "YOU ARE DIFFERENT". Yes, thank you, I AM! I have emerged and I am exploring who I am outside of a dysfunctional controlling relationship! Join the journey fellow Lonely Child!...and maybe, just maybe, we thank our BPD experience for releasing us to higher possibilities!

[maria1]

Was actually just thinking I may need to start posting on the Personal Inventory Board. It makes me a little nervous but I think these posts are possibly for there. The analysis is for me now and not for him.

I was much, much more comfortable analysing somebody else's f***d upness! Guess there's another big clue as to why I stayed in it.

My ex taught me a lot about myself in his behaviours. I need to give him that. And he taught me to be less understanding at times and, whilst I would never advocate bpd as a way of life, it did start me wondering if I forgive and understand too much at times. Never have guessed I'd end up here though.

So in some ways we can thank the BPDs. It means we are all getting somewhere I think.

Scary!

[nylonsquid]

The Lonely Child schema hit me. It resonated with me and though I help others lots, I have been disappointed by others that I try to understand. It's because they don't understand me back. I learnt now to help others but never at my own compromise and well being. It's still a struggle as I try to find a fulfilling life with an understanding and complimentary partner. All my life I've been making films that explore abstract ideas (trying to make sense of things) and interpersonal dramatic relations and I realize I'm only trying to understand others in a twisted way of understanding myself. I'm projecting my inner exploration.

Lonely would definitely be a feeling I carry through my life.

I would like to add what I believe Lonely Child is not a term that defines us but a term that is with us. Meaning that all types of personalities have an inner lonely child but it is more evident in some. And in order for BPDs to attract another, they need to be a mirror for someone who's in a lonely child 'stance' who will bring forth understanding. This understanding trait is what defines a lot of us on here and it is something that BPDs strive on. They know they make no sense and they know that an understanding person will latch on trying to make things work. It is devastating to a partner because personally, being understanding is what defines a lot of myself and the walls of understanding collapsed before me. It hurt when I realized that all my efforts where in vein. Not only that, but I was manipulated and crushed by whom I thought was a worthy person that needed.. scratch that.. DEMANDED it.

[Slowlybutsurely]

There's so much good stuff on this post; thanks to you all.

I asked my T today--so, okay, I am a Lonely Child--what to do?  She suggested that I try to 'feel' how I might have felt as a kid in various circumstances, as a way of healing, somehow. I guess healing is the word? Unlike the exBPD, I haven't seen myself as in need of core healing in the same way. I didn't have a traumatic childhood, and no abuse; but general indifference characterized my growing up. So, I responded to that by becoming strong in so many ways, and I was definitely lonely. Okay, so I'll try to tap into the little squirt that I was back then, and feel the feelings, and then...  maybe that will be enough?  Plus of course trying to do as NylonSquid suggested, and figure out what I want/how I want to be treated. And resolve never again to be roped into the Rescuer. Ooh, that is a hard one. I love to rescue. But unless we're talking about a little kitty cat or puppy, I need to resist the urge. There is something so compelling about rescuing a damsel in distress and then hoping/praying she loves me in the end...  But I saw how that worked last time,     

So, feeling the feelings, and be more aware. That's about all I can think of now. I don't know if my therapist is very good, because I wonder if she should have more ideas? 

I was actually envious a little of my ex, when she started a 12-step support group, for all her problems. She had instant community and friends, and had such big problems that so many people joined in to help her. I never get that,    I kind of wish I did. But I don't need it, I guess? But that's part of it. I never need anything or anyone, because I've always taken care of myself (no choice on that one).  "Healing" a lonely child is a bit complicated, it seems. At least to me.

Happy Tuesday. 

[nocrazy]

Here is a question in reference to the Lonely Childhild

Has anyone found any good self talk type practice, or whatever to snap out of obssessing about where the ex is and what and who, etc?

I find myself doing it, even if I kind of dont care. It is like a habit.

I have Limited Contact, due to our son, and ex mentioned he has plans for tomorrow evening, that he has a 4th of July party to go to.

I got stuck. Just for a second. And I wondered. thank God I did not ask any questions, just wondered for a minute when I hung up. If he found the replacement yet.

[NonGF]

Yes, the Lonely Child/Abandoned Child schema rings so true for me and my exBPD, too.  It was almost overwhelming to read... so dead-on accurate.  I'm going to have to read it again (and probably again and again) to fully grasp it.

Kind of off-topic -- but -- I wonder if 2 Lonely Child's (recovered or recovering) would make for a more stable relationship?

[maria1]

For me the lonely child in me /is seeking somebody who recognises all the things in me that I like and appreciate about myself. Because nobody noticed me as a child.

My ex wasn't exactly like me and was very different in some ways but the fact that he loved the things about me which I loved about myself was huge for me. I was in love with his love for me, not in love with myself, but maybe that's like looking in a mirror?

[Slowlybutsurely]

And Maria, what you've said makes sense to me... that I can get my (little) mind around!

And I'll join HowPredicatable in expressing my thanks for the original Lonely Child post, which has done so much in helping me to understand myself.

 

[Skip]

1. Does this mean the relationship problems were equally my fault?  And the relationship's end? Yes, the dreaded and horrible question we all agonize about so much.  It seems from the thread that it was both of us. But she's PD and I am not. How to reckon all this?

2. How to fix myself? I have a therapist, but she doesn't get any of this at all.

This is a very thoughtful thread and it's great to see the participation. It will beckon a few to advance and take that next all important step in healing - personal inventory.  Personal inventory is the hardest and most rewarding step of all.  Hard and rewarding.  Like learning to ski or learning to dive - it's discouraging and painful on the outset.  I can see a few struggling with that now and some will turn away in denial.

There is a reason we hurt. Pain is what drives us to break through and get beyond our own coping mechanisms and search for the real answer to our struggles - to fix what is defective and live a life that is not marred by a fixable emotional defect.

But getting past the protective coping is the key... and hard.  We can all see how a pwBPD struggles to do this.  We struggle too. We are often so fearful of pain that we do anything we can to avoid it - alcohol, get a new partner, blame others.  And we are often so fearful of facing our own weaknesses, that we look everywhere else but at ourselves.  But the bottom line is that the person pwBPD is gone now and all that is left is to fix ourselves.

If you want to start to understand the "Lonely Child" (more commonly referred to as the "Vulnerable Child"), start with a little reading about Jeffery Young's schema.  Here is a little blurb to get started:

The conceptual model for narcissism revolves around schema modes, which are defined as separate facets of the self that have not been fully integrated with each other.

The patient is characterized by three modes:

• the Lonely Child, who feels lonely and devalued;

• the Self-Aggrandizer, who overcompensates through entitlement and approval-seeking; and

• the Detached Self-Soother, who seeks stimulation to avoid painful affect.  

The patient alternates between the Self-Aggrandizer and Detached Self- Soother modes to avoid experiencing the isolation of the Lonely Child.

Schema therapy treatment includes helping the patient value nurturing and empathy more than status and approval; combating entitled behavior; accessing early feelings of loneliness and defectiveness.

Who of you that identify with the "Lonely Child" are ready to take this on?

Who of you that identify with the "Lonely Child" are struggling to break through your own coping mechanisms?

[Slowlybutsurely]

Skip: Thank you so much for this!  At this point, I am determined to work on myself, and 'fix' whatever it is that led me to the relx with the BPD ex in the first place.

I also need to think carefully about possibly finding a new T. My current T doesn't understand BPD, and therefore, I don't think she understands me. In fact, I've read her stuff from this site, to try to educate ( ) her, and it's clear she's hearing it for the first time. I figure if someone can understand BPD, they can understand anything, and possibly even me. I don't think I'm that hard to understand, but it sure seems hard to find a T with real insight and expertise on anything tangible.

 Hi!

[nocrazy]

Skip,

can you post a link to the entire original text of this?

I can see the self aggrandizing  part in me that comes out to avoid pain, but, I cannot see as clearly the detached self soother. I tend to have a deficiency in the self soothing arena.

Also, all this new information is really flooding me. I have bells going off all over the place, and I thought of something very important for me:

I belive now, that I had a childhood and early adulthood which set me up to be a shoe in for BPD. I was sexually abused as a child, my dad died when I wa 13, my mom was present but emotionally cold. I was re assaulted as a teenager, and had done some weird self harming, but never cutting, or anything extreme. I also never black/whited people, or cut them out of my life. I usually remained close with people I had been imtimate with, and also had the fortune of several longer term relationships.
.

I think what I am seeing is that when I was around 21 years old, I sought help. I went to therapy for ten or so years, working on various things, eventually coming to a place when I was around 27 where I started doing EMDR therapy. I released a great deal of trauma from my chilhood, and went on to have 2 very healthy, balanced and long term relationships in my 30s. I was able to develop a strong identity, and good, solid friendships, did family therapy with my FOO, as a result of my work on myself. My whole family benefited from it. I have had an excellent and successful career in the public eye, and had a good self esteem.

BUT, I took my foot off the snake so to speak...I stopped doing the work, and when I met my recent ex H uBPD/NPD husband, I was caught unawares, LOL.

All the still unhealed stuff played so deeply into him, from the very start. Ten years later, my self esteem is so eroded. I have always had a very strong sense of identity. I even feel that I have used this relationship to punish myself out of guilt for my fathers death. (It was blamed on me, openly by my mother).
 The earlier work that I did, I think may have worked out the Abandoned Child issues in me, but I still have the serious Lonley child complex.

Is this possible? That I somehow, in my earlier years was able to avert becoming fully BPD? And instead, while unravelling, healing, and processing the most deep issues around abandonment trauma, still retain the closer to the surface issues around being the Lonely Child?

It can seem, while reading these schema, that there is a very fine line between the two. Almost like a spectrum disorder.
Some children are very autistic, some are just a touch autistic...like that...

ANy thoughts?

[nocrazy]

Also, 2010,

My question is: did you write it yourself, or adapt it from other text?

What is the origin of the post?

Very helpful, in ANY case!

[nocrazy]

Oh, Thanks SOOO Much, Skip!

Very useful for me!

Skip, I wonder if you read my previous post, about possibly being set up as a BPD, but through early long term therapy avoiding that, but retaining some Lonely Child tendencies (term used loosely, here, LOL.)

The description of the lonely child in your post above is exactly me. Especially "The Lonely Child is also prone to try to hold the relationship together long after it has turned bad as they are tolerant and often feel deserving of bad treatment." I feel/felt defective, deprived, and unloveable. My BPD/NPD would say, "who will want you?" and I believed that. I already had that tape running in my own head.

So, this is thought to be running on a spectrum? Like Autism is?

What is the main difference, or separating factor, as I said...They run so close together. What would be the main thing that would cause a T/expert to deem a person the BPD over the Lonely Child?

I am on the Lonely Child end of the spectrum, I believe, as I really do not idealize/devalue, nor do I have general black/white thinking patterns. I continued to maintain friendships even though I felt I had been done wrong. I have the ability to accept rejection. I do not self harm, except through this abusive relationship. I do, however have rage at my ex BPD/NPD H.

[Want2know]

What would be the main thing that would cause a T/expert to deem a person the BPD over the Lonely Child?

nocrazy - we can have multiple schema and switch between schemas.  This is what Skip meant by this thread being a bit over simplified (but helpful).  BPD is typically associated with 5 main schemas.  NPD is typically associated with three main schema (see below).

The conceptual model for narcissism revolves around schema modes, which are defined as separate facets of the self that have not been fully integrated with each other.

The patient is characterized by three modes:

• the Lonely Child, who feels lonely and devalued;

• the Self-Aggrandizer, who overcompensates through entitlement and approval-seeking; and

• the Detached Self-Soother, who seeks stimulation to avoid painful affect.  

The patient alternates between the Self-Aggrandizer and Detached Self- Soother modes to avoid experiencing the isolation of the Lonely Child.

A personal inventory, like learning to ski, it is a long process.  Stay with it. Take it one step at a time.  Don't get hung up on labels - it tends to drive denial. Just look at what you wrote.  Some fear is showing.  Be brave.  

You, and many others, can identify with these maladaptive schema.  It's a blessing to see this.  Know you have a solid lead to follow in your personal inventory exploration.

[nocrazy]

Want2Know,

Yes, there is fear in my post.
I have been through the ringer, LOL;
And I have come out pretty balanced, and have had many professional Therapists feed that back to me...

But, I got mixed up in this again, and I am embarrassed, and its been a long time. I have lost the respect of some friends and family members who could just not understand why I would not leave.

I am very committed this time, to not leave my healing half baked. I want to have a fork stuck in me. I am 43, for Gosh sakes.

I have a 7 year old, and I am very vigilant about providing all the presence and limits and true love that I missed, that My BPD/NPD H did not get/ cannot give.

I feel pressure to do this right.
I will not get into another r/s until I at least have some clear ideas about this.
I have ordered a lot of books, read several already.

So, yeah. There is fear in there, and all I can do is keep moving, but. Yeah I am really afraid to lie to myself again, and tell myself its all healed over, and that I can trust my radar. In parenting, in partnering, in work.

Thanks