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Author Topic: Aspergers and BPD  (Read 3455 times)
argyle
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« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2012, 10:37:15 AM »

Depends - Asperger's are more likely to succeed at suicide, to do black and white thinking, and to be frustrated with normal life.  They may also, rationally, fear abandonment and believe they are unable to make it on their own. My guess is that many Asperger's also have muted emotional responses, so they are not so at risk for BPD.  However, autism tends to run in families.  And, people with the social skills of a 2 year old often resort to physical tantrums.* Now, imagine a 6'4 grown man throwing a toddler tantrum and a 5'1 woman joining in.  Then, assume that the usual escalating cycle of abuse sets in.

Voila, extraordinarily abusive environment for children to grow up BPD in.  That, and, in one instance, I've heard of an Aspie whose Aspie father didn't understand sexual norms and who, fairly innocently, sexually abused her.

Mind you, I went to school with a lot of Aspies and am probably a bit Aspie myself and they were mostly more pleasant than the NTs - but there's variability in everything.

--Argyle
*This is actually why many boys are diagnosed with Aspergers - the violent tantrums are quite noticeable.
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heronbird
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« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2012, 12:18:27 PM »

Gosh, very interesting, and does seem similar to BPD. I didnt realise
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keep strong and look after yourself

Vivgood
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« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2012, 01:22:38 PM »

Well, from the interior/personal perspective... wink

BPD feels pretty much like Marsha Linehan described it-
"Borderline individuals are the psychological equivalent of third-degree-burn patients. They simply have, so to speak, no emotional skin. Even the slightest touch or movement can create immense suffering."

Being an Aspie ain't so bad. tough as a kid in school (well, more than tough, horrible bullying), but as an adult, I would not choose to be NT.

Both are amenable to tx, but the tx for BPD is HARD...for me, memorizing and imitating "social cues" has been a lifelong endevor, but not really difficult. And as an adult living/working in academic research...eh, we're expected to be a little "off". I don't know anywhere that being Borderline would be an advantage...maybe acting?  And it wouldn't be worth it even with a showcase full of Academy Awards! ;p


IMO
vivgood
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tiredmommy2
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« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2012, 02:27:11 PM »

Quote
BPD feels pretty much like Marsha Linehan described it-
"Borderline individuals are the psychological equivalent of third-degree-burn patients. They simply have, so to speak, no emotional skin. Even the slightest touch or movement can create immense suffering."
This sounds horrible.   

Quote
Being an Aspie ain't so bad. tough as a kid in school (well, more than tough, horrible bullying), but as an adult, I would not choose to be NT.
It makes me happy to hear you say this. Although I feel horrible for the things (bullying, teasing) that my daughter has to endure, I think she's awesome just the way she is. Being an Aspie is what makes her cool and really funny! I will say that if the bullying gets out of hand, I will pull her out of school and hire someone to teach her at home. I won't take the risk of her being traumatized to a point where she could develop BPD too.
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"Let us not look back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around in awareness" - James Thurber
Vivgood
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« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2012, 03:51:08 PM »

Quote
I will say that if the bullying gets out of hand, I will pull her out of school and hire someone to teach her at home. I won't take the risk of her being traumatized to a point where she could develop BPD too.

Good plan!

you're a good, if tired, mommy! grin

vivgood
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Lempicka
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« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2012, 04:32:48 PM »

It's very common for autistic/aspie kids to end up being abused by their families, too, because the families don't know quite how to deal with them.
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tiredmommy2
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« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2012, 04:39:42 PM »

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It's very common for autistic/aspie kids to end up being abused by their families, too, because the families don't know quite how to deal with them.
It breaks my heart to hear this. They are additional challenges in raising an autistic child, but with once a diagnosis is made, there is so much support available. I have always worked very closely with my Aspie daughter's teachers and therapists, and whenever I had any problems or questions, they were always there for me. Hearing this just makes me want to run out and adopt autistic children.  cry

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Good plan!

you're a good, if tired, mommy!
Thank you, Vivgood. 
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thinking
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« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2012, 12:03:56 AM »

Just to add, my mom and grandma wondered if my BPDd had autism as a baby. She was happiest at times just left in her bouncer. Never a snuggler as an infant or small child. Suprisingly, she was born a self-soother. Slept 8 hours the night we brought her home (the sleeping prolems began around 3). She was just very particlar about different materials against her skin and didn't want to be held or wrapped tightly in a blanket.  ?
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Reality
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« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2012, 08:17:15 PM »

thinking
Interesting, as my BPDs23 used to sit in his little lounge chair, sometimes for hours, just looking around, when he was just 3 or 4 months old.  He could be by himself and it was fine.  Beautiful sleeper as infant, but once he started moving, he couldn't self-sooth at night, so I would read to him, sometimes for several hours as he would listen calmly and he was very relaxed, having me right beside him.  My other son would read quietly in bed and just go to sleep after a kiss and snuggle and prayers. 
My BPDs23 still talks about the feel of the material of his clothes and always wants to wear the softest cotton ones.
Reality

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heronbird
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« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2012, 04:02:39 AM »

Reality, you sound like a lovely mum, I can hardly remember my dd when she was that young, I mean course I remember some things, but I always feel I was maybe a bit too busy or something, If she cried because she couldnt sleep Id do my best but in the end I used to just leave her because I thought she had to learn and I had to sleep and out 3 others had to sleep for school.
Now I wish I could have that time again I would comfort her so much more, I think I took it for granted that they were always going to be little and cute
 Doing the right thing
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keep strong and look after yourself

mmt
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« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2012, 10:06:05 PM »

i just started a thread similar to this.. wondering if my bf has both.. i'm SO glad found this!
if anyone has any more info i'd love to hear it!
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Reality
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« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2012, 07:58:58 PM »

I am reviving this thread because I was thinking today of how I am behaving in my interactions with my BPDs23 when I recalled a book I read at least 20 years ago and then re-read last year.  The book is called Dibs and it is about the innovative treatment devised and practiced by an autistic boy's parents.  Today I thought to myself that my interactions with my son parallel in many ways the daily interactions the parents had with their son.  They practised mirroring their child's actions, so that when their son did something like rock the parents and even the other children in the family would all rock with him.  They also started the therapy in the bathroom, because it was a very contained space.  And they worked over and over to teach him learning skills and then useful content. 
My son spent 5 non-stop hours with me today talking and discussing.  Yes, five hours.  And then I realized after laughing with him at his jokes and basically  being a friend to him, that what I was doing was mirroring my son.  Radical acceptance is mirroring, I think.
Then, as I was thinking about how he had turned a bit nasty last evening and I had not freaked, (which I always used to do) and I had calmly told him that if he wanted to discuss the topic, he would need to use a reasonable tone of voice and not threaten me.  At first, he didn't listen, but when I continued to show him that his stance was not fair play, he lowered his voice and asked pleasantly.  When I told him that worked well for me and that I loved him, he gave me a kiss. Three months ago, I probably would have had a police visit.  He is learning Mindfulness at DBT and distress tolerance, so it is seeming to work hand in hand with my new perspective. I am learning to notice my amygdala being triggered and even noticing my fear spiking helps me to take a different path.  Later, I thought that whole episode was skills training, showing my son that there are different ways to meet his needs other  than by  threatening and acting like the meanest. 
Interestingly, I see my security system on the house as being a bit like the safe container of the bathroom, as it is a visible reminder to me and to my son that we are connected to the outside world.
When I read that book, it reminded me so much of my BPDs23 and now that I am learning DBT, it feels so reminiscent of the way those two parents brought their severely autistic child into the real world.  Their work was very intense as is mine now.  I keep saying to people the last couple of weeks that my son is coming alive again.  It is as if he is returning to our reality and leaving his own reality construct behind piece by piece.
He is very high maintenance of course, but I can see and feel a slight turning towards.
I welcome any comments or insights on my observations.
Reality
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almostvegan
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« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2012, 10:00:17 PM »

I read that book!
You give me hope, reality.
Peace.
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Reality
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« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2012, 10:11:46 PM »

almostvegan
Your peace gives me calm.  Do you see my point about the similarities of the two treatments?
I hope your dear daughter is doing well right now.  I am pulling for her and for your family.  She is still young.  With all the help you are giving her and with the dx at such a young age, she will do well. 
Reality
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almostvegan
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« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2012, 10:31:14 PM »

Awww you're so sweet. Thank you. I wish everyone peace bc I know how much we need it!
I do see the similarities. But I think if I mirrored my dd when she " freaked out" it would make it worse: shed say I was making fun of her. Also when someone does to her what she does to them it gets her insane! Maybe a reread is in order. I'm open to any ideas that will help my family.
I read that book a zillion years ago but it stuck with me. I remember thinking how strong and brave those parents were. I didn't even have kids yet when I read it but I shuddered to read the pain that family suffered.
Things have been as good as they get lately. Today (and tomorrow) is "color war" in dd school.  It's team sports no classes Lots of fun to a tyPical. But dd hates it today she begged and pleaded for me to come get her. She refuses to participate. I only agreed bc she swore shed catch up on missed school wOrk and do papers. You know what? I picked her up and felt bad about it bc " why can't she be normal and have fun" but she came home and did two research papers and three missed assignments. Not without battles but it got done.
Tomorrow is day two and I asked. Cousin who's of similar size and always looks nice to take her shopping.  Cousin will pick dd up from school ( lives in same town), shop with her and bring her back. I'm proud of MYSELF for coming up with the idea and happy for my dd that she won't have to be forced into something she hates which could potentially trigger her or set off a bad mood. I hope she spends tons of money and gets loads of things and has fun with her cousin. ( cousin is 30ish. Still young enough to be "cool" to a 15 yo).


When you mention successes you've had it gives me hope. Sometimes with dd I feel so terribly hopeless.
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Reality
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« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2013, 04:08:54 PM »

Moving this thread to let new members read the posts.
Reality
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sam-99


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« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2013, 07:14:01 PM »

My dd's first diagnosis was depression.  The second was PDD-NOS which is just short of being Aspergers.  Took a couple more years for the BPD diagnosis to come to be evident.  Seems like that was the natural progression for her.  Question is was is BPD all along or did it just evolve through her adolescence?  hmmmm...   All the diagnosis seemed to fit at the time...   but each new one fit just a little better than the last, with BPD being the nail on the head at present.  (bi-polar was a thought at some point, just not quite right...   some ADD aspects presented here and there also.)
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FoolishOne
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« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2013, 07:33:56 PM »

I don't know if this is helpful in any way...   but my BPDw has BPD and her son has Asperger's Syndrome.  FYI

F1
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Kate4queen
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« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2013, 03:14:19 PM »

my eldest has Aspergers, he's 23 and he is so different to my 21 year old son with BPD that I can't imagine them being compared. smiley

1,
Eldest is socially unaware, doesn't lie and puts his foot in it all the time because of that. Second son lies constantly just for the fun of it, and very carefully uses his words for the most massive impact imaginable.

2. Younger son spent years ridiculing and attempting to destroy older brother using his words and inability to stop driving his point and his world vision home. We tried to intervene, it was like slaughter, but that just seemed to make it worse. Older kid eventually turned around and told younger to F off out of his life, and when it wouldn't stop he punched his brother in the face. Now I'm not an advocate for violence by any means but for my Aspy son this was the most straightforward way to deal with an intolerable long term assassination of his character. After that second son gave up on the taunting and has created a life long enemy because my Aspy son is incapable of lying about how he feels. Sometimes I envy him that ability.smiley

But I do think that knowing our family history with 4 grandparents who between them showed lack of empathy, ADD, BPD and other weird autistic like behaviors that our poor kids really didn't stand a chance in the genetic lottery. So I can see a link but I can also see how diverse the genes can be.
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Smugly
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« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2013, 05:42:46 PM »

Interesting post Reality.  My DS4 was diagnosed with autism aged 2 yrs 3 mths.  My husbands sister is uBPD.  I have steeped myself in the world of autism for the past few years and BPD is one of the coexisting conditions which MAY appear with higher functioning autism (Such as Aspergers).  From reading other posts I can see many people with BPD also share other conditions which are regularly associated with autism such as OCD, ODD, sensory integration problems, etc.  however People with autism are not capable of the levels of manipulation which can be attributed to "typical" people.  To my mind there is definitely a link between the two disorders, perhaps the lack of empathy is key here and the need for control bourne out of fear.  My DS4 would be ruling the roost here if his ABA therapist had not shown me techniques to set boundaries and take the control back.  Research has proven autism to be a strongly hereditary condit
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