Using empathy and mutual understandings - rather than boundary enforcement

[needbpdhelp]

After twenty years of fighting, having hard boundaries, and misery with my diagnosed BPD wife - who I really hate this label these days - I discovered the benefits of DBT in the book  High Conflict Couple - highly recommended on this site - a year ago. My wife and I studied this book together - as well as many others on the subject -and applied it's principles of loving acceptance and mindfulness. Our trust and respect for each other has improved dramatically. Our lives turned around and we are really a loving team now, working together to improve all our relationships.

I absolutely believe in our right and need to have personal values, however, for those posting on this L-4 board who love your SOs and want to have healthy, trusting, intimate relationships with them, be very careful relying on hard line boundary enforcement as the primary means to defend them.

I believe a mindful exploration of the reasons you both react to your individual triggers, as well as learning how to control those reactions, and eliminate the fears that cause them, is a much better way to regain closeness than having rules. Some of the hallmarks of BPD are insecurity, guilt, depression, fear, anger, etc. - all of which can be activated when we nons set even very reasonable boundaries, whereas love, compassion, acceptance, and empathy can defuse these triggers, set a good example for better behaviors, and pave the way to reconnect, and regain mutual trust. Now you can just have loving 'understandings' and cooperation to give each other the things you each need.

I believe confrontational and passive aggressive acts ('I will not tolerate hit_, I am leaving the room') and should be used very sparingly, and only when all else fails - and if this is common you would probably be best posting on a different board, and have the 'you are right and they are wrong' attitude that I did for 20 years.

One of the most important reasons for my improved marriage is me awakening to my own personality traits that exacerbated my wife's dysregulation and created similar problems for others. I hadn't realized these things about myself, only because most self-confident secure people can let these things slide,or don't want to hurt your feelings by correcting you, so you don't usually get the negative reactions to your own behavior like you do from your emotionally sensitive SO. Mindful thinking caused this awakening, but only after a lot of study, practice and persistence. The concept is easy to understand - putting it into practice is extremely difficult. You have to suspend all your beliefs and judgements in order to realize your own need for personal change, and that is very hard to do. Our lifelong beliefs represent who we are - and proud of it - so ripping some of them to shreds is probably the hardest thing you will ever have to do.

I have come to believe that BPD is primarily the skewed reality and resulting extreme lack of emotional control exhibited by very sensitive people who have  probably been treated badly early in life, or had  traumatic experiences which damaged their ability to fully trust people in general, leaving them extremely fearful and on guard. Their dysregulation episodes are fight, flight or freeze defense mechanisms that should be responded to with loving, empathetic, care and compassion. I believe boundaries are very misunderstood, used prematurely, and misused by a lot of people on this site - I used to be one of them.  

This is a good workshop on boundaries

I believe BPDs who are chemically dependent, violent, chronically unfaithful, pathological liars, criminals, etc., have other co-existing problems that need to be addressed separately, with boundaries, and maybe divorce, and on a different board than L-4

needBPDhelp

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[nowheretogo]

I am very interested in hearing more.  What is the L-4 board and what is DBT?  Should I just read the book?  I agree with showing love and compassion and understanding, but how do you do this without condoning and promoting abusive type behaviors (shouting, blaming, threatening, name-calling, etc.)?

[committed]

I agree completely!

You hit the nail on the head as far as I believe my BF is concerned when you talked about what is behind dysregulation episodes.

I do have values /boundaries for myself but they are boundaries which I believe everyone should have in every relationship - I won't be in a a relationship where I am abused, lied to, cheated on, where my partners uses controlled/illegal substances, where I am giving the silent treatment etc. And the only boundary I have ever verbalized to my BF is the last one regarding the silent treatment because we were dealing with that situation and I felt he needed to know that I wouldn't tolerate it. I see these as boundaries for me and what I believe. I agree that if they are presented as rules for the other person you are asking for nothing but trouble from your partner.

I try very hard to see the underlying feelings that have triggered by BF. For example, I've found it usually isn't about the fact that I disagreed with him (what seems to trigger him the most), he is really upset because he feels unwanted and important and he just wants someone to listen to him and understand him. It is usually something he is feeling about himself - shame, worthlessness, guilt - that triggers him but he grasps on to other issues to try to justify in his mind why he feels this way.

I wish so badly I could see into his mind and figure out what is really going on at times - what he is afraid of, why he has so much trouble trusing people, why he feels unimportant and why he has troubles with intimacy and closeness. Over the last four years we've been together, I've been able to get him to open up a bit, but I don't know if he will ever be able to allow himself to trust me completely.

[nowheretogo]

Committed, how is it that you are able to maintain the boundaries without verbalizing them?  Am wondering as I am beginning MC with my ndBPDH and am trying to decide the best approaches... .ie, should I NOT say in counseling that I love and support H, but don't feel safe when there is yelling going on, and ask that he would respect that I may ask for a time out when this is happening?

[Happiest]

I'll be following this thread, it has an interesting bent.

[Pema]

I ran across the  High Conflict Couple recently on Amazon. I'm so glad to hear it works. I may make that suggestion to my uBPDh.

Right now I feel the relationship is so one sided. I make such an effort to understand him and respect him. I don't  think he is really interested in getting help, he just makes noises about it to appease me.

His behavior is so immature. It's so embarrassing. We had dinner guests the other night and he was such an ass the entire time. I brought it up the next day and he threw a temper tantrum and now I'm getting the silent treatment.

I feel like I have to manage EVERYTHING to get any peace.

I too feel that boundaries are misunderstood. When I was first hearing about them here and at al-anon I truly didn't know what they meant. I don't think I had any and didn't really recognize them in others. I'm learning now that boundaries are about self-respect and staying true to my own values and beliefs. I can maintain my own rules for my own behavior and by doing so not get drawn into his drama. I fail sometimes, but I try to go easy on myself and stay the course.

I'm not being physically abused right now. Came close a few times in the past.

So I'm not living with that kind of fear. I would imagine boundaries take on a whole new meaning when someone is physically hurting you.

Thanks for this topic. It's helpful and I'll check back for more responses.

Wellness to you all

Pema

[xeon]

You touched on something that I think is key at the end of your first paragraph... .you're working as a team.   

For me right now... .it feels as if I'm working on me (Co-Dependency) and trying to figure out my wife's BPD tendencies.  Little to no effort from her, so... .Radical Acceptance (very cool!) is something I'm working on and I'm starting to focus more on me. 

[committed]

nowheretogo, I think it would be perfectly appropriate to bring up your boundary with your counselor regarding loving and supporting your husband, but not willing to take abuse. I think your counselor would support this and it would be good for you to get that validation in front of your H from a third party.

[needbpdhelp]

I am very interested in hearing more.  What is the L-4 board and what is DBT?  Should I just read the book?  I agree with showing love and compassion and understanding, but how do you do this without condoning and promoting abusive type behaviors (shouting, blaming, threatening, name-calling, etc.)?

Hi nowheretogo,

I would get the book on Amazon - cheap used - read it, use the principles on yourself, then share it, with your SO and others. Just the positive affect on yourself is well worth the effort, but be prepared for some serious work on your part. The really good thing if your SO resents the BPD label is that is isn't mentioned in the book.

I don't believe good behavior promotes or condones bad behavior - it merely acknowledges it's existence, which is what is meant by 'acceptance'. You just accept that your SO is the way they are, and that you can't fix them. However your own good behavior and mindful understanding of why they react to things the way they do, can be a big influence on their desire to improve their own behavior without feeling picked on or inferior.

The Hollywood version - and even many reference sites - paint such a horrible picture of people with BPD, it is no wonder they walk out of relationships, and therapists offices. Neither Hollywood nor many therapists have a clue about how to make a connection with a person with these symptoms. The term BPD has such a negative connotation these days, how would you feel if you were told you were mentally ill and had BPD.

DBT is a non-confrontational non blaming therapy we can all benefit from. With a little proper mindful thinking you will realize that you sometimes, exhibit nearly all of the same dysregulation reactions your BPD SO does - just hopefully not nearly to the degree they do. If you study the High Conflict Couples book, or any other DBT material you will learn about your own negative reactions and dysregulation that exacerbates your SO's triggers as well as causing your problems - past and present - in other relationships.

You will find that this depth of mindfulness about your own actions is extremely difficult. We have been taught that our beliefs, behaviors, and personal realities define who we are, so  the act of seeing and realizing our own - possibly life long - poor behaviors due to erroneous beliefs and skewed perspectives, can be devastating. It definitely was for me - and still is, since this mindful process is an ongoing process. The good news is that you will really see an improvement in all your relationships, and hopefully your SO will want to join you on your enlightenment adventure. Mine did.

needBPDhelp

[doryswimsagain]

Thanks for sharing your story, needBPDhelp.  The fact that any of us are present on this site is a testament to their inner strength and willingness to reflect inward. o way to go, bpdfamily.com members 

Your reference to the difficulty that comes when you begin an inventory of our own weaknesses is very important. It was vital that I knew, for myself, I had left no stone unturned in trying to save my marriage. Acknowledging my faults and issues was indeed one of my biggest struggles... .and it will continue to be a struggle. This is not a battle that psychologically HEALTHY people willing to face, much less those with BPD. I give enormous credit to BPDs who embrace treatment and counseling, whether they accept the diagnosis or not.

I now accept that my issues did not define my marriage or its outcome, but also know it was a HUGE piece of the whole. And I do believe denial of such is THE main reason for most if not all traditional divorces.

[Happiest]

Thanks for sharing your story, needBPDhelp.  The fact that any of us are present on this site is a testament to their inner strength and willingness to reflect inward. o way to go, bpdfamily.com members 

Your reference to the difficulty that comes when you begin an inventory of our own weaknesses is very important. It was vital that I knew, for myself, I had left no stone unturned in trying to save my marriage. Acknowledging my faults and issues was indeed one of my biggest struggles... .and it will continue to be a struggle. This is not a battle that psychologically HEALTHY people willing to face, much less those with BPD. I give enormous credit to BPDs who embrace treatment and counseling, whether they accept the diagnosis or not.

I now accept that my issues did not define my marriage or its outcome, but also know it was a HUGE piece of the whole. And I do believe denial of such is THE main reason for most if not all traditional divorces.

after a twenty year marriage, it ended in divorce. I loved that man so dearly. I look back and I know I was the tear in the sheet. He was the foot that made it bigger.

[nowheretogo]

I am aware of the need to look inward to identify my own negative behaviors.  Certainly I can identify some "incorrect" reactions/actions in the past, and know that sometimes some of these are behaviors exhibited by people with BPD.  I am willing to read about it, etc, and attempt to really see my own faults, issues, etc.  H doesn't read anything, and is even pretty resistant to therapy in general.  He only wants MC that only see one possible solution and will do anything to get us there (staying together).  He doesn't trust the therapists, think they may be talking behind his back, etc.  He and I separately see two therapists in the same office and one of them together.  I have never met the one we see together alone.  He has met the one I see alone on his own once before.  I don't even know why I'm telling you this.  Guess I am still a bit lost and confused.

[SmileAnyway]

Limits might be a better word for it than boundaries, I guess what is important is that the 'standard' the non makes for themselves serves as a protection from furtherance of harm.

I like the thread, but wonder if it is only successful where both parties in the couple are working together at it?

Where the pw/BPD is undiagnosed, I am not sure how I would proceed with this method? 

I am all ears!

[needbpdhelp]

I am aware of the need to look inward to identify my own negative behaviors.  Certainly I can identify some "incorrect" reactions/actions in the past, and know that sometimes some of these are behaviors exhibited by people with BPD.  I am willing to read about it, etc, and attempt to really see my own faults, issues, etc.  H doesn't read anything, and is even pretty resistant to therapy in general.  He only wants MC that only see one possible solution and will do anything to get us there (staying together).  He doesn't trust the therapists, think they may be talking behind his back, etc.  He and I separately see two therapists in the same office and one of them together.  I have never met the one we see together alone.  He has met the one I see alone on his own once before.  I don't even know why I'm telling you this.  Guess I am still a bit lost and confused.

Hello again nowhereto go,

After reading some of your latest and original posts, your situation seems to be very complex and scary. Your H can be a very aggressive person, and even physically abusive it seems. I can't fault you at all for filing your divorce and not wanting his name on your home deed.

Let me caution you that telling a very aggressive person - BPD - or not - that they are BPD, is also telling them they are mentally ill, and they will immediately think of the hollywood version of BPD which is that of a  violent psychopath. This plus the personal boundary consequence your H has to deal with  - the divorce filing - could be enough to cause horrible dysregulation, fear of abandonment, possible terrible revenge responses, etc.  Be very very careful.

My recommendation would be to only do personal therapy for now for both of you, with separate therapists that both are familiar with DBT, and insist on positive results prior to marriage counseling. This is very common advice for such serious r/s issues. Marriage counseling with someone in denial about their BPD and not in counseling to determine the cause of their uncontrolled emotions, is liable to do more harm than good. Your divorce filing could be a good boundary action for you, with the stipulation that you will consider stoping the divorce and putting him on your home title, after you see big changes resulting from his therapy.

I don't know where you live, but in my state the home you are both living in is considered community property. Ask your attorney about this.

needhelp

[argyle]

I think there's a broad range of R/S here and that different R/S dynamics require different approaches.

If I oversimplify, I see two types of R/S dynamics.

(1) Physically and/or verbally abusive by one partner

(2) Relationship instability owing to difficulty relating to BPD volatility and 'non' issues.

Most real BPD R/S have a mix of these two issues.

My guess is that (1) is better approached by boundaries, limits, and sincere consideration of divorce.

(2) is generally better approached by validation and mindfulness. Here I'd agree with you.  I probably entirely agree with you - we just come from different poles of the spectrum.

Even at those two poles, all tools have some sort of applicability - but the dominant toolset does change.  A certain amount of mindfulness and caution is needed, as well as an appreciation that nothing will work perfectly.

Eg: My boundary on physical and verbal abuse doesn't cause my wife's BPD. They also didn't create her abusive parental models. Or compel her choices in these matters.

Enforcing that limit:

_does_ protect me, our toddler, and her.

_does_ hurt her terribly and trigger fears of abandonment. This can result in escalation.

_does_ help her not return to old habits and escalate to 'real' (felony) DV.

I do enforce this boundary selectively - mostly if I think she has a real point and can't seem to get it out politely.  I'm willing to endure a bit of harm and a small reversion to past dynamics in a good cause.  As the R/S improves, or if things start to get 'bad', I'll be less selective.

Oddly, most of the people in abusive R/S seem to start with validation and mindfulness.  So far, I've mostly seen complete failure. (I understand that you're upset and think that if I hadn't dropped that teacup, you wouldn't have choked me... .grrgle... .grrgle... .)* Similarly, a lot of the people in 'volatile' R/S start with boundaries and limits.  That doesn't seem to work well either. (You're terrified of me leaving?  Well, congratulations, if you freak out like x again, I'm leaving... .stew on that awhile... .)**

Mind you, I'm somewhat 'philosophical' about these R/S.  I believe that some of them are worth saving and some of them aren't. It can be hard to tell which is which. I believe that most BPD R/S should probably start with acceptance as a tool.  It is much easier to make useful progress once you start making plans based on reality. Yes, they're crazy. Yes, so am I. And, yes, probably, I can make changes faster than them.  And, no, they won't magically become well. And no, even if you're perfect, life will still suck - being with a crazy person sucks.

Following acceptance, it is reasonable to try some new tools -and work on your own mental health- and see how things change and then make plans accordingly.  At a minimum, the responses to whatever tools you choose give extra information regarding the R/S and may deflate some false assumptions.

I am probably more optimistic about the prospect of repair for some of the abusive R/S than for the 'coping-issues' R/S.  Other people may not agree with me, but I believe there is a substantial subset of the abusive cohort whose partners are actually relatively sane and who have just become acclimated to bad behavior because their nons have failed to set limits. The initial improvement from setting boundaries with these people can be quite large.

For example, my wife communicated to me that she'd never known how upset I was over being repeatedly verbally abused over 30 hour intervals and occasionally physically abused.  She didn't feel particularly sorry about it or necessarily understand that that sort of behavior could be hurtful - but she was willing and able to stop pretty rapidly.  And, when I look back over our R/S, I see a gradual escalation in behavior that I never put a stop to.***

@need Heh.  There was a time where I was hoping BPDw was 'just' a paranoid schizophrenic.  :)epends on the state - in mine - previously owned houses aren't community property but property appreciation is.  And, actually, considering housing prices - now might be a good time for divorce.

@dory Sigh.  BPDw is sometimes... .pretty Hollywood.  Well... .honestly... .closer to Korean dramas than Hollywood.  American shows are mild.

@mom Not having boundaries is always easier... .for a while.

--Argyle

*Validation does very little to change a R/S dynamic in which a partner beats you up to destress.  Heck, I wouldn't stop hitting someone because they validated me. I would stop hitting them because they set an appropriate boundary.

**Limits do not help BPDs cope better with life - and if the main issue is that the BPD is having trouble coping with life - making it harder may not be wise. Of course, enabling isn't great either... .

***And, y'know, the lack of empathy makes some aspects of marriage problematic.  But, if we get to a point where we're fairly reliably on the same team... .life will probably be survivable.

[nowheretogo]

needhelp,  I plan to never mention borderline or any other pd to H, knowing that it would be completely destructive.  Part of the problem I have is trying to deal with him and avoiding words like "abuse", and "addiction", because they are so injurious to him as he denies any problems.  This is very confusing to me.  I don't know how to communicate effectively when the issues are always under the rug.  He doesn't know he has a pd, he denies having an alchohol problem, he denies any sexual issues... .the only thing he admits to is having some temper issues and calling me names as a problem.  But even THAT is my fault.  What I find funny is that he says he can let negative things (ie if I called him a name) roll of his back and be forgotten.  If that is true, why did he "punish" me for months to years over "not letting him have his friends over, talk to his friends on the phone, asking for more intimacy", etc.  It's not like I said we are not having anyone over or I'm outta here!  or anything of the sort.  We had people over ALL the time.  I wasn't always happy about it, so that was the problem.  I have only called him names a couple of times, and only after standing there being yelled at and called names incessantly.  It's not something I would ever do on my own.  I was mostly quiet about all of the horrible things he said or did or the way he made me feel, but when I DID bring it up, I was screamed at and told that I don't appreciate anything and then ignored some more... .

I guess I will look into getting the book and at least see what I can learn from it.

I wonder if MC is thinking of keeping us separate for the time being, as he rescheduled to see H on Mon, but not to see us both.  This point by you and dory is one I hadn't really thought of before, but actually in just a few sessions, can already see it happening to some extent.  Disordered but not stupid, he picks up on things very quickly.  ie, "I'm even starting to think I'm crazy.  Every one in the room is saying I'm the problem; it's my fault." 

H is very controlling, short-fused, and although he says he loves me with all of his heart, this is hard for me to believe in the midst of all of the name-calling and especially the diabolical threats that have come across, including WAY before I filed for divorce!

Fyi, the house, according to L, is mine, but he would be entitled to half of whatever appreciation may have accrued.

[argyle]

Eh. There really is a double standard.  Yes, it is completely unfair. And, yes, he would probably yell at you in the same situation.  My BPDw definitely would.

That said... .so what... .he's mentally ill.  That's perfectly normal loving and 'working at the R/S' behavior for him.  Probably best to not dwell on it while working at the R/S.  If you're staying, you've chosen to live with a duck - best to not expect purring. OTOH, that reality is reasonable grounds for leaving... .depends on what your focus is right now.

--Argyle

[nowheretogo]

Yeah, I understand.  I think my head and heart are still not in the same place.  I want to be working it out, but emotionally am finding that difficult.  Maybe that's because I'm not being honest, and I really want to be separating (?).  Is it ok for me to be confused?  I think I should maybe be back on the undecided board, but then am I lying to H that I am trying?

[doryswimsagain]

In keeping with the original topic of this thread, a book that may help, when read as a couple, is:

Conscious Loving, A Journey to Co-Committment, by Gay and Kathlyn Hendricks, PhDs.

[doryswimsagain]

Spot on

I am curious, by the way... .High Conflict Couples... .does it reference the conundrum that nons are up against when their SO is simply unwilling to trust the therapists?  I think this seems to be a recurring problem for those across several boards, and counseling does seem such a vital part of repairing a relationship of this sort... .

[needbpdhelp]

From what I have learned about personal boundaries, they should help you and others.

When we determine our values that define who we are, we need to include our own  personal limits/boundaries that protect others from our mindless actions - opposite of mindful.

Through my own personal mindful exploration of my values and boundaries - you know I prefer the term limits - I have revisited how my values, limits, and communication skills in my r/s with my wife have been lacking. I now not only have better more realistic limits for myself and others. I know you must have personal limits for your own actions to protect others, and just didn't mention them, but don't you agree that these should be an important part of our overall personal boundaries?

An example of mindful thinking about one of your listed boundaries:

"I will not stay in a room when someone is yelling at me"

Hopefully you didn't mean in all cases, such as a small child who is sleepy, distressed, afraid, etc., yet aren't our SOs very much like children emotionally.  

Did I put up with a lot of ranting from my W? I never would have, before coming to this sight and studying the principles of DBT  My own mindful thinking has given me a lot of insight into my wife's triggers and really horrible past experiences that cause a lot of her triggers. Me modifying this same boundary of yours along with other changes in my own perceptions, behaviors, and values, have been huge factors in us turning our marriage around. My wife feels really listened to now, and that alone has done wonders for her emotional control.

needhelp

[Salut]

Interesting comparison!  Limits vs empathy is what I have been trying to grasp for the last year.

I am starting to realize that I had empathy and validation in my marriage at one point.  I think   the  confusing BPD behaviors triggered my own insecurities, and my empathy got replaced with something else I can't yet name.

My ah-ha moment has been in realizing how this may have affected my uBPDh.  I think as my empathy slipped away and my fear increased, his behavior got worse, and slowly moved from occurring mostly in our marriage to seeping out into our public life.  And oddly, public BPD behaviors seems to be where I draw the line (wish I knew why my private life wasn't just as important to me).

So I can see where there is this sort of mutually dysfunctional dance that starts to go faster and faster.  If I had better boundaries to begin with, my H would probably have been getting more of the validation he needs.  And if H was getting validated (and he has always been pretty clear about that need), I probably wouldn't have needed to be as careful about my own limits.

The one other key for me has been to understand that validation (what H was asking for) was about his feelings, not about facts.  It always felt like H was asking to be right all the time, which turned into me having to compromise my values.  Now i can see a difference in validating feelings from validating facts.

Still isn't all working for me, but regardless of how my marriage ends up, I feel like I have gained more insight into human nature.  And on a good day I can feel good about that, and find just a little more empathy for H because of it.

[needbpdhelp]

'Know when to hold them and know when to fold them'

I think this saying applies a lot to boundaries. I can relate to the experiences of so many of you who post here. You can set and enforce boundaries and things get worse or drop them and things get worse.

Our personal boundaries are supposed to be as much about setting limits for our own behavior toward others, as it is about what limits of others' behaviors toward us we are willing to accept. Setting these limits and enforcing them properly takes a great deal of insight, and DBT principles can help all of us learn how to gain that insight. The following wikipedia link may be helpful to many of you who are unfamiliar with this therapy which is now being used to improve most all types of difficult relationships as well as promoting personal growth in general - www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_behavior_therapy  - this is a very good explanation of DBT  and it's origin, in my opinion. Note that radical acceptance is merely letting go of fighting reality, and accepting it for what it is at the present time. This doesn't mean we are happy with it, or can't effect changes in it, once we decide what we realistically can and want to change as a result of mindful evaluations of that reality. For one thing everyone's reality is subjective, and flawed in many ways. We all have different perspectives of it, and objective non-judgmental mindful thinking, can greatly improve the accuracy of our perspectives about life, our relationships, values and our entire view of our reality.

My two favorite books - so far - that show how to put all of this together are the 'HIgh Conflict Couple' book, and the book 'Mindsight' by Daniel Siegel M.D. These are both books written by highly credible pioneers in the new wave of therapies involving the Buddist's philosophies of mindful meditation and acceptance of your present reality without fighting it, denying it, hating it, feeling hopeless about it, or blaming yourself or others for it, etc.



Another relatively new therapy is ACT - Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, which is an extension of DBT, and is explained very well in the book 'Mindfulness and Acceptance. This book is a wonderful compilation of many different new therapies that are springing up using mindfulness. It is edited by experts in the field Steven C. Hayes, Victoria M. Follette, and the developer of DBT Marsha Linehan. This book is mostly intended for use by therapists, and can be textbook difficult tedious reading, but if you are willing to go the distance reading it, there is a wealth of information there.

Interesting comparison!  Limits vs empathy is what I have been trying to grasp for the last year.

I am starting to realize that I had empathy and validation in my marriage at one point.  I think   the  confusing BPD behaviors triggered my own insecurities, and my empathy got replaced with something else I can't yet name.

My ah-ha moment has been in realizing how this may have affected my uBPDh.  I think as my empathy slipped away and my fear increased, his behavior got worse, and slowly moved from occurring mostly in our marriage to seeping out into our public life.  And oddly, public BPD behaviors seems to be where I draw the line (wish I knew why my private life wasn't just as important to me).

So I can see where there is this sort of mutually dysfunctional dance that starts to go faster and faster.  If I had better boundaries to begin with, my H would probably have been getting more of the validation he needs.  And if H was getting validated (and he has always been pretty clear about that need), I probably wouldn't have needed to be as careful about my own limits.

The one other key for me has been to understand that validation (what H was asking for) was about his feelings, not about facts.  It always felt like H was asking to be right all the time, which turned into me having to compromise my values.  Now i can see a difference in validating feelings from validating facts.

Great example of good mindful thinking - keep it up, learn more about it, and practice, practice, practice. If nothing else, you will gain a great deal of personal growth - I cant believe I said 'nothing else' when this is a wonderful goal that absolutely will improve all of your relationships.

NeedBPDhelp

[needbpdhelp]

My thoughts are that after learning how to really put into practice, objective, non-judgmental,mindful thinking and empathy, both for yourself and others, it's possible to come to mutually agreeable 'understandings' about each person's personal limits, and those of your r/s in general. I believe an 'understanding' is much easier to maintain than a boundary enforcement, although I agree that in some cases you need to protect yourself with strong limits, when 'understandings' just don't work, and you are absolutely sure, you are not a big part of the problem - usually not the norm I believe.

needBPDhelp.

[Auspicious]

The one other key for me has been to understand that validation (what H was asking for) was about his feelings, not about facts.  It always felt like H was asking to be right all the time, which turned into me having to compromise my values.  Now i can see a difference in validating feelings from validating facts.

This is key! 

Emotional validation and boundaries aren't opposed - they go hand in hand.

E.g.

"I wish we could afford Broadway plays too. Don't blame you for being disappointed!"

Note the two components; both present, not opposed.

Emotional validation: hearing and validating the desire and disappointment to see Broadway plays.

Boundaries: Not putting tickets on a credit card.

[needbpdhelp]

The one other key for me has been to understand that validation (what H was asking for) was about his feelings, not about facts.  It always felt like H was asking to be right all the time, which turned into me having to compromise my values.  Now i can see a difference in validating feelings from validating facts.

This is key! 

Emotional validation and boundaries aren't opposed - they go hand in hand.

E.g.

"I wish we could afford Broadway plays too. Don't blame you for being disappointed!"

Note the two components; both present, not opposed.

Emotional validation: hearing and validating the desire and disappointment to see Broadway plays.

Boundaries: Not putting tickets on a credit card.

If this 'boundary' was put in place by one person rather than being a 'mutually agreed upon 'understanding' - which is not a personal boundary - I'm afraid their partner wouldn't feel validated by the validation statement you use here. If they wanted to go to a Broadway play and didn't agree with the 'not putting tickets on a credit card' boundary, they might interpret this validation as invalidation, and react like this:

"If you really wanted to see a Broadway play, you would realize that putting the tickets on a credit card is no big deal like I have told you a million times. Sometimes when a great play comes to town, and we have the time to go see it we might be short of funds, but we could use the credit card and then pay off the balance as soon as we can, probably when the card bill comes due the following month, so don't tell me you sympathize with my disappointment because you don't, you just are trying to justify your stupid rules on credit cad use."

This is just my opinion so everyone feel free to give opinions. Sometimes I think we feel we are being validating, but if it is perceived as invalidating, it likely is. We need to be very mindful as to how our emotionally sensitive SO's will interpret our attempts at empathy.

needBPDhelp

[argyle]

I would guess that the application of a boundary will _nearly always_ be invalidating.  Even if you've empathized with the emotion - the fact that you're contradicting their decision indicates that you think, even if for purely practical reasons, that it isn't a good idea. So, I honestly doubt that boundaries will usually avoid invalidation.

If there is the possibility of a negotiated compromise... .that will usually be better.

That said, I personally haven't seen much use to negotiated compromise for most of the R/S problems I've encountered (some... .but not that many).

Those problems tend to fall into:

(a) My boss is mad at me... .therefore I will scream abuse and throw things at you. If you walk away, I will attack you or your child.

(b) Welcome home.  Tonight - we must blow 3k-60k in savings or I will divorce you.

(c) You must agree that people a, b, c are plotting to destroy me.  Do so or I'll know you're on their side.

(d) I am feeling self-loathing, therefore I will blame you for everything I do. For at least 16 hours.

I've had a lot of these discussions.  And - BPDw isn't open to compromise. OTOH, walk away or even threaten to walk away, and she's good to talk within 2-4 hours.  Boundaries seem to work better for these problems.

My opinion is that, for the 'typical' BPD-non R/S, there will be enough pure disagreements regarding boundary issues that a certain amount of core boundary setting is necessary. (physical, emotional, financial health).  Beyond those core boundaries, there is considerable room for negotiation and therefore 'understandings'.  And, to some extent, a certain amount of interdependence can be valuable in a R/S. So, yep, there is an area where boundaries and lack of compromise will tend to weaken a R/S and, depending on your commitment to the R/S, some choices and compromises may need to be made. I have seen people using boundaries to try to fix the R/S - and that really doesn't seem to work.

OTOH, eg, my BPDw still believes that violence and emotional abuse have their place in R/S. I still don't.  She also believes that I won't tolerate further behavior along those lines.  And has chosen (better part of valor as much as anything else) to honor my feelings in those matters.

Honestly - I may be misunderstanding you a bit - and do agree with you in the abstract.

However, for the people I've seen here - this discussion is mostly academic - because I hardly see people getting past the core boundaries.  In my opinion, if a R/S involves frequent transgression of core boundaries, negotiated understandings are not a good solution and, honestly, even on the staying board, 'run and don't look back' is often good advice.  (Or, more accurately, 'please contact a domestic violence shelter and/or CPS and/or a lawyer - after moving in with your friends.'

--Argyle

[Auspicious]

To me, a boundary isn't something that you "set", necessarily. it's something that you have. It's an almost physical property. (Though we do have the power to think about them and change them - maybe that's "setting".)

In the most basic literal sense, it's where one entity stops and another begins. A property line is a boundary - the line where one parcel stops and the next begins. Or if oil is floating on top of water, the layer where the oil stops and the water starts is the boundary between them.

We all have boundaries ... .we may not articulate them or even know ourselves precisely what they are, but we all have them. (Her: "Honey, let's rob a bank and then eat puppies for breakfast. It's important to me and you will do it if you love me." You: "Ah, no."

And our real boundaries are reflected in our actions, not by what we say or even think that they are.

[Auspicious]

If this 'boundary' was put in place by one person rather than being a 'mutually agreed upon 'understanding' - which is not a personal boundary - I'm afraid their partner wouldn't feel validated by the validation statement you use here. If they wanted to go to a Broadway play and didn't agree with the 'not putting tickets on a credit card' boundary, they might interpret this validation as invalidation, and react like this:

"If you really wanted to see a Broadway play, you would realize that putting the tickets on a credit card is no big deal like I have told you a million times. Sometimes when a great play comes to town, and we have the time to go see it we might be short of funds, but we could use the credit card and then pay off the balance as soon as we can, probably when the card bill comes due the following month, so don't tell me you sympathize with my disappointment because you don't, you just are trying to justify your stupid rules on credit cad use."

Sure, she might. But we can't control how someone else receives something. If I really do empathize with her feelings (and that is key) and she chooses to reject that empathy unless I also comply with her demands, then there's nothing I can do about that. I've offered sincere empathy, and she's rejected it.

That too, is in fact about boundaries - the boundary between her as a person and me as a person. She is her, and I am me. I can't control what she thinks or does. We aren't one fused creature. I can control what I do, which is to offer sincere empathy. i can't control how she receives it.

Which ties into the identity disturbance part of BPD ... .if we were one fused creature, then I'd obey her, right?  If I'm part of her, like her arm ... .well, if she told her arm to do something, and it didn't do it, she'd likely be angry, scared, freaking out ... .sound familiar? A lack of boundaries is part of identity disturbance.


Obviously collaboration is preferred, when possible     And like all married people, I collaborate many times per day.  But we wouldn't be here discussing this if normal collaboration was routinely successful in relationships with pwBPD. Or maybe a better way to put it is that there are serious challenges with collaborating with a pwBPD, and there will be many occasions when it is not possible.

I do agree with you that collaboration is preferred and important

[Lencha]

I totally endorse MINDFULLNESS in improving the relationship with a BPD. My T brought it about on me to help me cope with anxiety and stress related to my relationship. I shared what I learned with my BPDgf and it seemed to have really opened up her mind and gave her hope to change. What made the trick is that mindfulness stresses the fact that YOU are not your feeling and your thoughts but that you can control them trough ACCEPTANCE. That seemed to heal her constant sense of guilt for her actions and helped her rationalize her dysregulation simply as a building up of powerful emotions which ARE NOT her. It created empathy for her own self, acceptance and hope that there is a way to LEARN how to stop being destructive.

We used a book called mindfulness for dummies and contains very simple but effective concepts. We also begun to work 'as a team' to be better persons and avoid the dramas. It doenst solve problems as magic but it does creates a shift in awareness that allows fertile ground for real improvements.

[argyle]

I dunno.  Auspicious makes sense - in that many of us simply wouldn't have issues if the problems in our married lives were amenable to compromise.  That said, I do suspect that there's a real subset of problems where added attention to mindfulness and negotiation are important.

@Auspicious (a bit off topic)

Y'know, for healthy people, I suspect boundaries are much like you describe.  

'X is not okay with me.'

And limits are an afterthought:

'So, I'll leave the room.'

For at least 1 person on the staying board (and probably a lot more)... .boundary maintenance in intimate relationships does not come naturally at all. The issue might be thought of as inexperience for simplicity.

So, f'r example,

'I'm not okay with BPDw punching me.'

would have been typically followed by... .

'WTH. please don't punch me.' And a stare rather like a deer in the headlights.

After some thought,

'And, if you attack me, I'm calling the police.'

proved fairly effective.

In addition, I personally lack many of the core boundaries that are, in my judgement, necessary in a R/S.  Like, f'r instance, regarding the physical abuse, I was more worried about the long-term effects on toddler than anything else.  That isn't particularly rational.  Particularly when living with a partner who uses knives.

So, for me, the process of deciding that my responses or lack thereof to some behavior aren't acceptable, deciding on a new response, articulating my plan to change my response to BPDw, incorporating, or not, her feedback, and implementing - corresponds to setting a new boundary.  Writing things down, as some may have gathered, helps me a lot.  As does practicing one change at a time. Honestly, 3-4 are strictly optional - but reduce the amount of confusion in the R/S.

@need OTOH, there are some issues where - even though boundaries might make sense in a sane R/S, I'm probably going to stick to understandings - along with a certain amount of record-keeping to keep us close to reality.

Eg., I've been working full-time, taking care of a toddler, doing the chores.  BPDw has been watching 40 hrs of TV weekly and whining a lot.  We've agreed on chore division.  And we've agreed on a star system to reward effort.  Mind you, there's still a limit.  I'm not going to alter the agreement regarding rewards for work performed.  (Largely a matter of who gets to choose a movie.)

--Argyle

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Pema]

I sent the initial post on this thread to my husband as encouragement.

He ordered the book and it arrived today.

I'm so upset with him and I have been for a week. I do all I can to avoid him and he keeps pulling my chain to draw me back in to the drama.

Such as parking his truck behind me so I can't get out.

I can't cope with him right now and if I had a place to go I'd run out the door like my hair was on fire.

I've made an appointment with my doc to get a full physical. I've been so stressed. I think I may need to be on an antidepressant to get me through this.

I've talked to a few counselors that didn't pan out for one reason or other such as insurance or area of expertise. I found another one I'll start with tomorrow.

I don't have boundaries right now. I'm to scared and stressed. I just have walls and if he breeches them I come undone.

He ordered the book but it will probably just give him more ideas for faking it.

I'm at the end of my rope.

[needbpdhelp]

I sent the initial post on this thread to my husband as encouragement.

He ordered the book and it arrived today.

I don't have boundaries right now. I'm to scared and stressed. I just have walls and if he breeches them I come undone.

He ordered the book but it will probably just give him more ideas for faking it.

I'm at the end of my rope.

So sorry for your distress Pema. The good news is that reading that book could change you and improve your life regardless of it's affect on your H - also, if you change for the better he is more likely to take the book's advice seriously. Good luck!

Also I read your prayer request and I'm hoping your prayers will be answered - read that book!

needBPDhelp

[needbpdhelp]

I totally endorse MINDFULLNESS in improving the relationship with a BPD. My T brought it about on me to help me cope with anxiety and stress related to my relationship. I shared what I learned with my BPDgf and it seemed to have really opened up her mind and gave her hope to change. What made the trick is that mindfulness stresses the fact that YOU are not your feeling and your thoughts but that you can control them trough ACCEPTANCE. That seemed to heal her constant sense of guilt for her actions and helped her rationalize her dysregulation simply as a building up of powerful emotions which ARE NOT her. It created empathy for her own self, acceptance and hope that there is a way to LEARN how to stop being destructive.

We used a book called mindfulness for dummies and contains very simple but effective concepts. We also begun to work 'as a team' to be better persons and avoid the dramas. It doenst solve problems as magic but it does creates a shift in awareness that allows fertile ground for real improvements.

Congratulations in your progress with mindfulness Lencha. I have read all your posts and really admire your dedication and insight into your  your own need for change in order to be a positive influence on a difficult r/s. I'm over twice your age and after 20 years of similar confusion and internal conflict with my wife, we have finally come to a better place largely because I discovered the High Conflict Couple book which teaches the Principles of DBT and the techniques to understand emotional triggers and how to learn how to control them using mindfulness changes in your own perspectives, as well as many lessons about how to strengthen your r/s bond. Don't be afraid of the Hollywood version of BPD, as it is very extreme, and probably not at all what your gf is like.

I would recommend that anyone interested improving their difficult r/s in a short time should read all of your posts, as I did - the story of a young dedicated man very much in love, coming to grips with the fact that he needed to change himself before he could cope with, or be a good match for an even younger, troubled but wonderful woman.

needBPDhelp

[Lencha]

hey needBPDhelp, thanks for the appreciation! yeah i've been totally swallowed by this relationship and had to learn how to swim in it. it came to a point now in which i'm taking a break at work and going to pick her up over there, which will entail marriage. i just can't cope with the distance and the constant worry, i decided is probably better to have the real thing with me in my life and keep the learning process going. it feels really liberating to accept in front of society that my love is half my age, half my education, another color and culture and got some troubles. a lot of the stress comes from what peoplemight think of me and how to protect my professional persona. but you know what? we only have one life and my persona is not me! what is significant for me since one year and a half is my love and me. it will be no tarmac road i know... .my hope is that she will learn and will not turn in to a holliwood BPD during her adaptation to europe (that will b some stress for her). my strenght is the firm belief that i will follow up with my healthy life beside her. we will both have our independence and focus on our individual life (my career so so so neglected!). she understands that and i have no doubt she will try to respect my work/gym routine! i'll maintain myself dedicated to protecting her wellbeing and self-development, it will be more practical when she will be with me everyday and i wont have to think/worry so much. in short, im ready to risk ruining my life bcause taking that risk is the only thing that could repristinate my integrity, although you would need to know much more of me to fully understand that it actually makes sense. so... .i'm leaving tonight, wish me luck!

[Triptoes]

I just recently started this book and can already say it has made a difference!

Previously I had tried enforcing my boundaries and many times they only seemed to make my husband angry: ":)on't walk out on me when I'm talking to you!" he would yell, when I calmly expressed that I would leave the room for 10 minutes and hope to speak about matter X calmly when I came back.

I was scared, frustrated and angry myself. We always started out talking calmly, but somehow most all conflict situations ended up in flames.

Then I got this book. And I saw that as much as my pwBPD was emotionally sensitive and quick to attack when he got hurt _

[yeeter]

Sure, she might. But we can't control how someone else receives something. If I really do empathize with her feelings (and that is key) and she chooses to reject that empathy unless I also comply with her demands, then there's nothing I can do about that. I've offered sincere empathy, and she's rejected it.

That too, is in fact about boundaries - the boundary between her as a person and me as a person. She is her, and I am me. I can't control what she thinks or does. We aren't one fused creature. I can control what I do, which is to offer sincere empathy. i can't control how she receives it.

Obviously collaboration is preferred, when possible     And like all married people, I collaborate many times per day.  But we wouldn't be here discussing this if normal collaboration was routinely successful in relationships with pwBPD. Or maybe a better way to put it is that there are serious challenges with collaborating with a pwBPD, and there will be many occasions when it is not possible.

I do agree with you that collaboration is preferred and important

This is where I get to as well.  Maybe it's the high NPD component.  With it, come the belief that she is most always ' right '. And coupled with binary black/white thinking, there really is no way to find mutual understanding

The concept of compromise just doesnt apply because compromise means she didn't get what she wanted ( no middle ground). And its worse than this, because even a difference in how we view the world  ( or value ) is seen as threat to her.  So there is no place for mutual understanding, its either adoption of her views, or invalidation ( meaning anything less than full agreement to how she sees the world is invalidating )

I can learn that this is how she sees the world.  I can empathize that it must be a difficult way to live, essentially going through life with pretty much everyone constantly invalidating her reality.  But what I cant seem to find, is a way to express my own position where it would not threaten her or invalidate her feelings.

We are learning to reduce conflict by detaching and living somewhat separately.  But there isn't a space to come back to something and discuss or find middle ground or mutual understanding ( she really just doesn't understand me.  Nor can she - thats just part of it - since it would mean letting go of some of who she is as a person (NPD))

[needbpdhelp]

I can learn that this is how she sees the world.  I can empathize that it must be a difficult way to live, essentially going through life with pretty much everyone constantly invalidating her reality.  But what I cant seem to find, is a way to express my own position where it would not threaten her or invalidate her feelings.

To me saying - "I can empathize that it must be a difficult way to live, essentially going through life with pretty much everyone constantly invalidating her reality." - is more like sympathy, or even pity. In her mind - and in mine as well by the way - this would show her that most everyone, including you, feel that her reality is not normal, and cause her to feel resentful I would think.

The good news is that this is a very common mistake to make. Empathy, if not used properly, and with great care can backfire on you big time - it certainly has on me many times in the past.

True mindful thinking type empathy involves crawling into someones mind and really understanding their reality, where it came from, and what or who caused it to depart from a more or less typical objective reality. Then you can validate her trials and tribulations that caused the skewed thinking. This should help her feel more understood and that you truly care.

Continued validation of past abuses and traumas she has endured can help her face experiences she has blocked out and help heal her confused mind.

Don't expect her to learn what your reality is until she learns what hers is.

I just recently started this book and can already say it has made a difference!

Previously I had tried enforcing my boundaries and many times they only seemed to make my husband angry: ":)on't walk out on me when I'm talking to you!" he would yell, when I calmly expressed that I would leave the room for 10 minutes and hope to speak about matter X calmly when I came back.

I was scared, frustrated and angry myself. We always started out talking calmly, but somehow most all conflict situations ended up in flames.

Then I got this book. And I saw that as much as my pwBPD was emotionally sensitive and quick to attack when he got hurt _

[Lilyroze]

Yes, empathy and compassion is the key to any relationship truly. Let alone with those that have BPD. Working with empathy and compassion, you can then use the tools to set the tone for your relationship.

Thanks for bump Skip nice post.

 Relationships achieve growth and balance when both partners are intent on developing empathy and compassion for themselves and for each other. Without empathy and compassion, there is no true intent to learn, because it is only the loving person that is capable of maintaining empathy and compassion for both oneself and others. They are healthy guidelines and values.

 “Drinking a cup of tea, I stop the war.”  Mindfulness be present, be calm, be in peace, then proceed. Truly will make a world of difference for you.

 Outer wars and conflicts come from and mirror the inner conflicts in each of our hearts and minds. A first step toward peace is learning to recognize the outbreak of internal conflict and war in our own minds or thoughts, anger and assumptions when are partners have a situation. This is a very powerful and profound art. During times of strife our lives depend most of all on learning to carefully observe the creative activity of our own mind as it weaves impressions and stories into beliefs that shape our attitudes and values, set our priorities, drive our communications and actions in the world.

Mindful thinking caused this awakening, but only after a lot of study, practice and persistence. The concept is easy to understand - putting it into practice is extremely difficult. You have to suspend all your beliefs and judgements in order to realize your own need for personal change, and that is very hard to do. Our lifelong beliefs represent who we are - and proud of it - so ripping some of them to shreds is probably the hardest thing you will ever have to do.

Very good skills to learn, it will make a world of difference in you relationships , family and business.

When both partners tend to shut down their compassion in conflict, then their conflicts rarely reach satisfying resolution. It is really 10% the problem and 90% how it is communicated. ( according to stats)  

Difficulties also come up in relationships when one person maintains more empathy and compassion than the other, especially during conflict. If one person is able to maintain his or her compassion for the partner even when angry or upset, but the other person shuts down his or her empathy and compassion when angry, this creates an imbalance in the relationship. The more compassionate person may end up feeling abused by the interaction, and may also be the one who usually opens and takes responsibility for patching things up. Really hearing what the other is saying, not assuming and trying to validate helps so much.

The important key is to not give up your self compassion, self respect and self love while doing. Those people who have maintained a deep level of compassion and empathy for others need to respect themselves enough to bring that empathy and compassion inside to their own heart.

Caring and compassion works but must be a two way or respectable street most of the time. When one has to do much more much of the relationship that can be OK, but most be respected, or can be draining or worse abusive. Each person matters in the relationship, each owns responsibility and is in charge of their own happiness. We can add to each others growth, love, happiness but can't be the source.



 This is great https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

I believe BPDs who are chemically dependent, violent, chronically unfaithful, pathological liars, criminals, etc., have other co-existing problems that need to be addressed separately, with boundaries, and maybe divorce, and on a different board than L-4

This is very important as well. If the above then too much compassion becomes unbalanced, not healthy and not good for your well being or the partnership. Each has to bring to the table. And if extreme problems like answer above you will need different tools, boundaries and well maybe even LC or NC.