The everyday stuff

[Think About It...]

Just a brief thought. I sometimes can express my anger normally and some times I have to be cool and watch out for signs she is going to melt down.

Just how do you express yourself for everyday I am mad at you issues?
I exclude major issues like alcoholism cheating and the like. I'm talking about forgot the trash kind of stuff

[desperate dutchman]

Just a brief thought. I sometimes can express my anger normally and some times I have to be cool and watch out for signs she is going to melt down.

Just how do you express yourself for everyday I am mad at you issues?
I exclude major issues like alcoholism cheating and the like. I'm talking about forgot the trash kind of stuff

[GreenMango]

Like any relationship there are matters that are important and then there is the stuff we let go.  It's a pick your battles thing.  This goes for any relationship, BPD or not.

We can ask our partners for things, like more help, taking out the trash, whether they do it is going to be up to them.  Letting the small things add fuel to possible resentment/anger over larger issues adds more conflict.

Is this about the daily grind kind of issues which you could communicate without getting angry over?  Are these little things really important to you?  Can you let these things go and focus on the more important issues?

GM

[xeon]

Can't think of stuff I consider every day stuff I'd get angry over.  Learning not to take things so personally helps tons with  a BPD SO.   

Stuff I do get angry over has underlying feelings... cheating = fear, humiliation and hurt for example.  Sharing this can be odd with BPD SOs from my experience, but I still do it... as well as with my therapist.  He gets it every time.     

[desperate dutchman]

I think I may have not expressed myself well. I didn't mean angry  mad more irritated mad not I'm pissed just annoyed. I realize that we need to pick our battles but can we still express ourselves and move on?

[Rose Tiger]

Internal dialogue:  he said he was going to take care of the car repair, it's been 3 weeks, what is the hold up?

To husband:  Hey Honey, I know you have a lot on your plate, should I go ahead and take care of getting the car repaired?

Husband:  No, I haven't been able to get to it, I'll put that on the to do for this weekend.

When he let's something go, my first inclination is 'fine' I'll take care of it.  Then I think about it and put it to him in such a way that I'm not pressuring.  I just want it done.  

[GreenMango]

I think I may have not expressed myself well. I didn't mean angry  mad more irritated mad not I'm pissed just annoyed. I realize that we need to pick our battles but can we still express ourselves and move on?

Sure you could express it and you could move on.  If your expectation is she can "move on" easily or the tools like SET or DEARMAN will change the how the disorder manifests in regards to rejection or criticism...the tools aren't a cure for her to have reasonable and rational feelings.  You may get blowback, but if you use SET and validate and she tantrums then she tantrums.  It's okay for her sit with her feelings and deal with it.  Are you okay with her dealing with her emotions or does that mean you usually "pay" for it later?

I'd use SET or DEARMAN.  If it's a household thing like you two have an agreement on duties and she isn't fulfilling, then you express your needs using SET.  Timing is also helpful.  It sounds like you are trying to strike a balance between between not being her enabler and being the emotional caretaker/lead.

-GM

[yeeter]

A great question Dutch,

In general, you are going to have to approach any interaction with more deliberation and caution than you would with someone else.  Its going to be a combination of:

Learning to just let go

Communicating things that are bothering you but arent the end of the world

And direct boundaries.

You are asking what falls into the middle ground.  Thing is, its different for everyone on how much they can let go (without building resentment) and how much you SO is likely to deregulate.

I think the key to driving the communication line more openly, is HOW you communicate.  (sure you have to decide what - and there are some 'whats' that you know will trigger).  A relationship should allow a fair amount of sharing, and compromise, and this is something that suffers in these relationships.

Pick one smaller item and practice.  Find a time when she is calm.  Approach it carefully (because likely at this time, she is sensitive to all criticism by you).  State it in terms of what YOUR preferences are (not accusing or blaming).  For example:  'When magazines are stacked here, I cant open the door to the cabinet"  vs "I dont like it when you stack magazines here" 

Make it a problem that isnt personal, and appeal to her help in solving it (which may, or may not involve her doing anything)

Practice practice practice.  Give LOTS of positive feedback if successful.  Back off if triggered, and give it time (dont try to do too much too fast).  Most advice here is to pick one thing to focus on at a time so as to not overwhelm.

[Blazing Star]

Hi Dutch,

I think everyone has given great advice, I just wanted to say that this is something that I struggle with too. It got to the point where I wasn't saying anything (no matter how small or reasonable) for fear of his over-reaction. It just didn't seem worth it, these little things.

However, after sometime this built up, and I just felt so suppressed.
Now I realise that this is MY feeling, and so I have been working on the opposite, basically trying to be brave and express myself (yes with SET etc, picking my time, approaching with caution etc), and just with the small things.

At the moment my focus is really on me and the mere expression of it is a success no matter what the outcome, and no matter how long I have been rehearsing it in my head!

Two things I have found that have helped me tho:

1. Being an unemotional broken record. eg he has this annoying habit of putting pots in the dishwasher, they need rinsing first or they don't get washed, I am the dishwasher unpacker and it just annoys me each time. So now I just say (almost as if its the first time I have said it) "hey baby, the dishwasher doesn't do a very good job of pots, best to leave them out and handwash them" (I have just realised I haven't had to say this in a couple of weeks and tonight there are washed! - by him - pots drying by the sink! result?)

2. Humour - really helpful for me to keep it light, and also less likely to trigger him. Can't think of an example right now, but saying something in a jokey, hey it's so not a big deal, lets have a laugh about it kind of way.

Okay a third
3. Appealing to his better side, as in assuming the best, or at least pretending to. (I admit this may not be the healthiest in the longrun, but in the short term it makes me feel better about expressing sometimes). Eg he made a nasty comment tonight just as I was leaving for work, I was a little floored and have been thinking "did I even hear that right?". So when I get brave in the next few days I am going to approach it like "Baby, look I am probably just being paranoid, please indulge me, the other night I thought I heard you say... were you joking?"

Basically it feels like by saying it this way I am giving him the chance to be his best, and also hey I could have really misheard him anyway. It does feel a little manipulative/unhealthy perhaps, and not a way of relating that I am aiming for, but, like I said, for now this helps me sometimes (helps me feel good about expressing - yes I am looking at that in myself!)

[Aida]

Dutchman,

I love Star's advice. Her spirit is so positive, she is a winner no matter what she does.

Now here is my two cents, since being rational and level headed is all new to me.

The bottom line is, we are all walking on egg shells, every single one of us, even our most edified teachers or this forum.  I, too, think, will there ever be a day where I just get to say, "What the f----?"  I'm almost grieving over the part of me that really does want to tell her she's wrong, and, "that's not what really happened...I didn't really say that...you are lying about that... I'm going to stop my feet and tantrum just like you until you get it right!"

I am ashamed to say that I have done all that, out madly wild frustration. I've become insane myself, many, many, many, many times ove the last ten years.  That's what landed me here: I was losing my sanity.

I find comfort in all of these stories that are so like mine.  I love this screct place where I can stomp my feet, because I can go back to my SO, and I know that I'm moving forward in a positive direction, like Star suggests and the way Step has taught me.

The first time I tried SET it blew up in my face. I know, now, that anything new for the BPD is a trigger. I'm so new that even what I am doing right I'm doing wrong!

I think for every great, rational decision we make in responding to any mean spirited comment our loved one makes, we should give ourselves a secret party in our heads.  I do know that my refusal to raise my voice like she does takes all the wind out of her sails.  That has changed my life.  I'm still working on everything else.

You deserve a party, Dutchman!  Go, team Dutchman!

[LoveNotWar]

SET...I've used DEARMAN too but SET works for me. That being said there is also wisdom in picking your battles... 

[Validation78]

Hi All!
   Here's one of the "every day" things I deal with, and how I now deal with it. H, like most of us, does not like anything that even implies criticism, of course for pwBPD, it is a horrible offense. This morning, in a very innocuous conversation, I mentioned that we both have a tendency to speak to others as we do our employees. He asked, what do you mean by that? I said sometimes we are stern, commanding etc., in a tone that probably should be left at work. (Look out I said to myself, here it comes). H said, I never speak to you like that, do I, you are kidding, right? I answered hesitantly, with well, most of the time, I think we are both respectful of the way we speak to each other, however, since it is very difficult to turn it on and off, there are times when WE both forget where we are, and to whom we are speaking. I didn't have a chance to say anything after that. He left the room, and house, in a huff very quickly, and sped off. Here's where I used to get upset. Today I said to myself, Val, you spoke the truth. You were not harsh nor deliberately hurtful. Yes, that's what the BPD mind heard, but that's his stuff. If the conversation had continued, and he said something like, that hurt his feelings, I could have validated. However, the conversation ended because he stormed off. I did not chase after him, nor will I. I will go about my day, and not allow what I see as an over reaction to my speaking my feelings, to effect me all day today. He will have the whole day to process his stuff, and if he is still upset later, I will validate whatever he is feeling. I am not responsible for how he feels when I speak my truth.

Best Wishes,
Val78

[Validation78]

Hi All!
   Just a quick follow up. It's 2 hours after the conversation, and he is texting me as if nothing happened! He is joking about something and being the nice guy again! Go figure. Did he soothe himself, come to terms with the truth, even if it isn't always pleasant? Who knows? Anyway, the point is, I did not make a big deal out of it, and I have not taken on the burden of responsibility. This is not to say that he won't bring it up at a later time, but I will be ready to validate his feelings by then!

Best Wishes,
Val78

[Aida]

Val,

I'm so proud of you! I'm impressed by how much forethought you put into your own reaction.  I'm still dealing with just plain old getting my feelings hurt. Inside my head, I want to blurt out exactly how I feel, but I've learned to be silent first, and measure my words.

Yesterday, my SO told me that Americans (including me) are ignorant and they should be concerned about bla bla bla bla...politics (bordering on paranoia). We are in the car, so I got silent. I was trying to figure out a way to validate, but I was too angry and hurt by her comment.

When I got home, I took a walk, and really tried to analyze the her persepective and her fear. I thought about what I was willing to do, and came home, validated the importance of her feelings, and told her that I would be interested in seeing the documentary that she felt so intensely about.

She felt great, totally validated. I was glad it didn't turn into something uglier.

The problem is, this morning, I'm still thinking of that cummy comment she made, about me being ignorant and all the rest of her blurting.

How do you get over that, Val?

Aida

[Validation78]

Hi Aida and All!
   To answer your question Aida, I get over stuff like that in time. It does not always come right away. I do a lot of self talk, and try to assess the responsibility where it belongs. In DBT, we are working on not making judgements. So, when H says something that hurts my feelings, I listen, and try not to be judgmental about it. I focus on how I feel, and acknowledge my thoughts, and describe, to myself, how it makes me feel. I want to allow myself to feel a certain way, but I am trying not to take it much further because it only makes me feel much worse. H will not validate my feelings, so if after I allow myself to describe how something makes me feel, I cannot get past it, I talk about it with someone else whether it is a friend, my T, or here. After that I usually feel better, and can put things into perspective. Sometimes I realize that I was wrong about something, and when others confirm that H was mean or unreasonable, I know that it is his stuff again, and not really about me. I attribute it to BPD or a bad day (or whatever), and forgive him. Fighting the codependency when I am successful, allows me to shift responsibility to something other than me. I am not making excuses for H, but BPD speaks too much, and it is not healthy for me to take it all in as gospel. When H is on a roll, most of it is just crap, and I have to let it roll off my shoulders. I know the truth about BPD and myself, and can never allow BPD to judge me! Don't get me wrong now, this stuff is VERY hard. I have my down days too, but I work at this, and so can you!

Best Wishes,
Val78

[Aida]

Val,

I think you have pinpointed where I break down. I still believe that I can be validated by her when she hurts my feelings. Not going to happen. You take it somewhere else and so shall I. This is good for me to reflect on that. There really is nowhere I can take it but here, so perhaps I can write it down in my journal, what I would say to her about how she hurt feelings. I love your idea about feeling the feeling but not making a judgement. That judgement is what gets me into trouble. I also love the idea of letting most of it roll off your back because most of it is just crap anyway. Ha! It's true!

I think there is a certain amount of grieving that comes with realizing that I can't get that kind of validation from her. I've tried it so many times. It just doesn't work, and I end up hauling around her backpack of dysregulated emotions in the end, anyway.

Val, do you think a non-BPD could get DBT training without the BPD. She will never get therapy or admit she needs it?

Thank you so much for your wonderful and very educated advice!

Aida

[JimNelson89]

Just a brief thought. I sometimes can express my anger normally and some times I have to be cool and watch out for signs she is going to melt down.

Just how do you express yourself for everyday I am mad at you issues?
I exclude major issues like alcoholism cheating and the like. I'm talking about forgot the trash kind of stuff

Hi Dutchman

If this truely is the everyday kind of stuff, then you ought to know ahead of time that it won't set her off.  If it upsets her then read on.

If you are angry, it is because you made some kind of judgement.  One of the problems with making judgements is that logic then dictates us which things are wrong and must be stopped.  But, typically(here is the real kicker), the things we judge negatively are things we don't like.  We want them to stop or be different, but they are not necessarily wrong (right out of the High conflict couple, p21-22).

[yeeter]

If you are angry, it is because you made some kind of judgement.  One of the problems with making judgements is that logic then dictates us which things are wrong and must be stopped.  But, typically(here is the real kicker), the things we judge negatively are things we don't like.  We want them to stop or be different, but they are not necessarily wrong (right out of the High conflict couple, p21-22).

 


Also wrapped up with you 'value system', religion, culture, upbringing, etc.  We are used to (and expect) things a certain way (after all its how we have been trained to interact in the world and get what we need).

A number of marriage counselors have used the line:  "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be in a relationship"  (implying that these are mutually exclusive - you have to give up the position of being 'right')

[Validation78]

Hi Aida and All!
   Not making judgements about ourselves and others is really hard. It seems almost natural to do so, but having the awareness of the damage it does is a good step towards not doing it. When I catch myself, I try to nip it in the bud, and bring it back to the description of the situation, and how it makes me feel. This is very hard!
   Aida, yes, you can do DBT without your partner. You can learn the tools, and use them everyday with your partner and everyone around you. I have only recently started real training, previously only being aware of techniques from reading, and have found it to be very helpful! I would encourage everyone to look into it, as it can change your life with or without a pwBPD in it! Also, yes, you may have to grieve the realization of what you don't have in your relationship, and may never have. Grieving is a process, and it's healthy to allow yourself to work through it, so do what you must to bring yourself to a good place, and to decide how you want to proceed with every part of your life! The codependent in many of us makes us think we have to carry the "stuff" that belongs to someone else. Learn to discern between what is yours and what belongs to someone else!

Best Wishes,
Val78