I was trying to use the newly learned SET communications techniques

[waverider]

It is your belief in yourself that is holding you back

Once you learn the "fuse breaker" boundary of leaving if you feel abused that will give you more confidence, and feel less trapped.

I used to be afraid of approaching anyone in general, now that I have learned more skills in self belief, there are not many people who intimidate me.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[DreamFlyer99]

Once you learn the "fuse breaker" boundary of leaving if you feel abused that will give you more confidence, and feel less trapped.

So true!

I think my view of these arguments changed once I realized that, as Waverider said, I could remove myself from the situation if I felt disrespected. Also realizing that one of the things I valued was Respect gave me a better sense of "i am protecting who I am" by removing myself. And realizing that the shame/rage from my H was really about him having all those awful painful feelings and wanting to dump them elsewhere and I was there to receive them--it wasn't really even about me!

You're in a great place in your growth--your sense of self is reemerging. I remember when that started happening for me and I started to feel more control of my life again, I wasn't merely reacting to the raging. I could choose to respond! So different.

[startrekuser]

Once you learn the "fuse breaker" boundary of leaving if you feel abused that will give you more confidence, and feel less trapped.

So true!

I think my view of these arguments changed once I realized that, as Waverider said, I could remove myself from the situation if I felt disrespected. Also realizing that one of the things I valued was Respect gave me a better sense of "i am protecting who I am" by removing myself. And realizing that the shame/rage from my H was really about him having all those awful painful feelings and wanting to dump them elsewhere and I was there to receive them--it wasn't really even about me!

You're in a great place in your growth--your sense of self is reemerging. I remember when that started happening for me and I started to feel more control of my life again, I wasn't merely reacting to the raging. I could choose to respond! So different.

Suppose the disrespect starts immediately at the beginning of the conversation?

[waverider]

Then the conversation stops.

pwBPD want to dump their woes on someone, they need a conversation (though you might not consider it a "conversation" to do that.

Disrespect means they are not listening or open to your view anyway, so it is just a waste of time from your perspective.

[startrekuser]

Then the conversation stops.

pwBPD want to dump their woes on someone, they need a conversation (though you might not consider it a "conversation" to do that.

Disrespect means they are not listening or open to your view anyway, so it is just a waste of time from your perspective.

I did it a few minutes ago.  I approached her and spoke to her about 90 seconds.  She was full of anger and said we're never going to talk.  I said we'll have to talk another time and walked away.  I'm glad I did it.  I consider it progress. 

I started off by saying:  "I miss you and you're obviously still upset about <the incident>.  So lets talk about it."

I feel very good right now.  I'll try again tomorrow or Sat.  I'm usually wiped out Friday night.

[waverider]

Thats good and it doesn't leave you feeling as beaten up

[startrekuser]

Thats good and it doesn't leave you feeling as beaten up

The fact that I'm standing up for myself is really sending her further into dysphoria.  She sent me this long email full of accusations, lies and exaggerations. I documented it all by the way, which I've been doing for the last year or so.  So I sent back another email saying that I would rather discuss these things in person and that was it.  That got her ever more upset and she called me at work.  She keeps saying "if you want out of this relationship, just give me the word".  She says I won't see her tonight, whatever that means.  She might go to a hotel.

[startrekuser]

Thats good and it doesn't leave you feeling as beaten up

The fact that I'm standing up for myself is really sending her further into dysphoria.  She sent me this long email full of accusations, lies and exaggerations. I documented it all by the way, which I've been doing for the last year or so.  So I sent back another email saying that I would rather discuss these things in person and that was it.  That got her ever more upset and she called me at work.  She says I won't see her tonight, whatever that means.  She might go to a hotel.

The ironic thing (among the many ironies and contradictions of a BPD) is that she keeps telling me she wants me to be a the leader in the relationship, yet, whenever I try to lead she fights me with her extreme BPD behavior.

[startrekuser]

Thats good and it doesn't leave you feeling as beaten up

She's really trying to get to me, but I've drawn the line.  She's calling me and emailing me continuously.  She's threatened to come to my office (45 minute drive) and wait for me at the exit.  I have told her that I want to talk in person at a time convenient to both of us  and b/c of her BPD, she can't stand that I've drawn this boundary.  I'm going to security to tell them that if she comes here, to send her away.  I'm not going to let her violate my boundary.  She's done it before - come to my office (different job) and I gave in and came out to talk to her.  Big mistake.  She actually called one of my coworkers to find out where I was.  I'm holding my ground this time.

[startrekuser]

Thats good and it doesn't leave you feeling as beaten up

She's really trying to get to me, but I've drawn the line.  She's calling me and emailing me continuously.  She's threatened to come to my office (45 minute drive) and wait for me at the exit.  I have told her that I want to talk in person at a time convenient to both of us  and b/c of her BPD, she can't stand that I've drawn this boundary.  I'm going to security to tell them that if she comes here, to send her away.  I'm not going to let her violate my boundary.  She's done it before - come to my office (different job) and I gave in and came out to talk to her.  Big mistake.  She actually called one of my coworkers to find out where I was.  I'm holding my ground this time.

I didn't go to security yet, but I did let her know in a loving way that I'm busy too talk and not to come her.

[DreamFlyer99]

That's definitely headway.

One way to live the boundary of not being drawn into email arguments now that you've established the boundary of "no discussions by email" is to not answer them at all after this if they seem to be continuing a non-productive argument. And you're supposed to be working anyway, right? and email works terribly for this kind of stuff.

I found myself too easily drawn in because 1-- I was afraid to talk to my h in person because of his anger, and 2- I kept forgetting I didn't need to defend myself, it was counterproductive.

Remember to frame it in a loving attitude though, remembering to tell yourself "i'm doing this for my mental health and the health of our r/s." I know my H could feel it if I was not feeling respectful myself.


* I just read your newest post: "but I did let her know in a loving way" AWW well done!   That's hard when we feel under attack, but you did it!

[startrekuser]

I found myself too easily drawn in because 1-- I was afraid to talk to my h in person because of his anger, and 2- I kept forgetting I didn't need to defend myself, it was counterproductive.

This.  Yes, I've had the same exact problems!  In addition, her focus changes so much, that I get confused and she accuses me of contradicting myself and it's impossible for me to argue with that.  But, and it's a big but, it's all part of the FOG, so I now know that I shouldn't defend myself and just try to read her feelings and validate them.

[startrekuser]

That's definitely headway.

One way to live the boundary of not being drawn into email arguments now that you've established the boundary of "no discussions by email" is to not answer them at all after this if they seem to be continuing a non-productive argument. And you're supposed to be working anyway, right? and email works terribly for this kind of stuff.

I found myself too easily drawn in because 1-- I was afraid to talk to my h in person because of his anger, and 2- I kept forgetting I didn't need to defend myself, it was counterproductive.

Remember to frame it in a loving attitude though, remembering to tell yourself "i'm doing this for my mental health and the health of our r/s." I know my H could feel it if I was not feeling respectful myself.


* I just read your newest post: "but I did let her know in a loving way" AWW well done!   That's hard when we feel under attack, but you did it!

I also broke an agreement that I made during one of her rages.  I told her I'm sorry, but I can't keep the agreement. She's been harping on that all day - I can't be trusted, not a good husband,etc. 

Now that I'm taking a step back, it's funny but sad at the same time.  I see her techniques.  She's using all the same buttons to try and push me to give in or argue,etc.  I just have to say:  "You must feel like you can't trust your husband.  That's an awful feeling.  If I couldn't trust my spouse, I would feel awful too."  I don't know if I will actually do that, but it's my goal to do that.  If it wasn't for this website, I would still get trapped in the same behavior and get nowhere.  I don't know if the empathy will actually work, but I'll give it a shot.

[waverider]

Now that I'm taking a step back, it's funny but sad at the same time.  I see her techniques.  She's using all the same buttons to try and push me to give in or argue,etc.  I just have to say:  "You must feel like you can't trust your husband.  That's an awful feeling.  If I couldn't trust my spouse, I would feel awful too."  I don't know if I will actually do that, but it's my goal to do that.  If it wasn't for this website, I would still get trapped in the same behavior and get nowhere.  I don't know if the empathy will actually work, but I'll give it a shot.

It does need taking that step back to see most of this, but it does become glaringly obvious when you do.

The trick now is to stay consistent. She is trying to see if she can break through using "Extinction Bursts". If you let her succeed it will make it harder to enforce boundaries in future as she will know if she keeps hammering away you are likely to cave. As a result boundaries need to be well thought out and important enough to you so you are not tempted to compromise.

On the other hand dont let them cross over into real controlling behavior, it is easy to get carried away.

[DreamFlyer99]

She's using all the same buttons to try and push me to give in or argue,etc.  I just have to say:  "You must feel like you can't trust your husband.  That's an awful feeling.  If I couldn't trust my spouse, I would feel awful too."  I don't know if I will actually do that, but it's my goal to do that.  If it wasn't for this website, I would still get trapped in the same behavior and get nowhere.  I don't know if the empathy will actually work, but I'll give it a shot.

I wish I could have seen what buttons of mine were being pushed sooner, because clearly that is giving you great insight into what the dynamics are and keeping you away from that horrible Groundhog Day reliving the same thing over and over and... .

I'd love to hear how it goes when you try doing that "if I couldn't trust my spouse I would feel awful too" thing. It sounds like a gift of understanding you'll be handing her.

[startrekuser]

She's using all the same buttons to try and push me to give in or argue,etc.  I just have to say:  "You must feel like you can't trust your husband.  That's an awful feeling.  If I couldn't trust my spouse, I would feel awful too."  I don't know if I will actually do that, but it's my goal to do that.  If it wasn't for this website, I would still get trapped in the same behavior and get nowhere.  I don't know if the empathy will actually work, but I'll give it a shot.

I wish I could have seen what buttons of mine were being pushed sooner, because clearly that is giving you great insight into what the dynamics are and keeping you away from that horrible Groundhog Day reliving the same thing over and over and... .

I'd love to hear how it goes when you try doing that "if I couldn't trust my spouse I would feel awful too" thing. It sounds like a gift of understanding you'll be handing her.

I tried to talk to her and she turned her back on me.  Then later she came to me with a notebook full of printouts from the internet about how to handle your spouse's emotions and be a better spouse, etc.  She said she wouldn't talk to me until I read that and I said I can't do that, sorry.  I'm  not against reading that type of thing, but as a condition of talking, that's not something I can agree to.  I could have handled the situation better.  I knew she would throw some wrench that would throw me off my plan.

[startrekuser]

We finally talked last night and I focused on SET and boundaries.   Of course, she was herself, blaming me and telling me how I need to change and trying to get me to admit that I purposely upset her.  At one point, she was starting to get visiIbly angry and said that I was provoking her to go into a rage.  I said then this is a good time to take a 5 or 10 minute break from the conversation and I got up and walked away.  About 15 minutes later, we continued the conversation.

She thanked me for the effort I was making in trying to sympathize and then went back to her blaming.  She is really good and actually had me going for a couple of minutes where I was thinking that I was in the wrong.  She's SO convincing, but because of years of her abuse and my documenting a lot of it in the last year and what I've learned on this website, I didn't stay in that mode of thinking.  I did go off track a couple of times and tried to explain myself.  One of those times I thought it was justified and worth saying.    It's amazing to me how she shows me specific things she says I do or don't do (items listed in how to have a fair fight, for example) and how she breaks every single one of those "rules" on a regular basis!  I mean she should be recorded and used as a teaching aide in a psychology class on projecting.

Anyway, the end of the conversation involved the agreement that I broke.  If I had explained to her why I broke it, it would have started a huge fight, so I just said I can't keep by that agreement anymore b/c it would just cause more problems.  Well, she went on and on and on how it's ground for divorce, that I can't be trusted, that the fact that I made the agreement showed that I was a man with good character and the fact that I broke it showed that I'm not a man of good character.  I validated her just like this site says to do and I actually agreed that I broke the agreement b/c I did.  I owned up to it and I apologized.  None of this was good enough for her.  She started with her drama and anger and I said I have to leave the conversation now.  That was the end of it.   The irony is that there are many agreements we've made that she broke and she didn't tell me she's going to break the agreements, but instead just went ahead and broke them.  I didn't bring that up and I know that if I did, it wouldn't do me ANY good, b/c I DON'T COUNT in this relationship!  Excuse my venting.

So she's back to sending emails saying that I said and I quote: "I did nothing wrong and you are partially to blame".  She said she needs to keep away from me.   She goes by the same script every time.  And that's how I see it now - as a script.  If I continue to do the SET, I'm hoping she goes away from the script.  Maybe she'll see it's not working.

[startrekuser]

She's not talking to me today.  She said the only thing she will talk about is our relationship.  Frankly, there's really not much  left to say if she's just going to blame me again.   I think if we talked it would just be a repeat of last night.  She's also threatening to go see a divorce attorney and see a therapist that is very expensive.  I'm sure this is all being done to manipulate me knowing that I'll be upset at the expense.  She told me these things in emails.  Should I even respond?

[blubee]

She's not talking to me today.  She said the only thing she will talk about is our relationship.  Frankly, there's really not much  left to say if she's just going to blame me again.   I think if we talked it would just be a repeat of last night.  She's also threatening to go see a divorce attorney and see a therapist that is very expensive.  I'm sure this is all being done to manipulate me knowing that I'll be upset at the expense.  She told me these things in emails.  Should I even respond?

hello fellow trekkie (I am assuming from your username )

I have been reading this thread on and off and just want to say that I think you are so brave.  I admire your honesty and that you are reaching out for help.  If everyone did this, there would be a lot more healing out there.   

I saw from another post that maybe it would be better not to respond to her emails.  A uBPDb of mine would write me email after email.  And wouldn't even wait for a response from me.    This was how I understood that he was not in reality.  It just seems that if a response is necessary, to keep it simple.  So as not to exasperate the high emotion.   

If she is truly interested in going to therapy, have you ever thought about DBT?  She may start going with the wrong motive at first, but it will be worth it if she keeps going.  I know many places that do this kind of therapy will counsel the spouses and family members too.   If you are the only breadwinner, it would be a good boundary for you to make with her regarding the expense of the therapy.  And good even if she can pay her own way. 

I really really hope the lightbulb comes on for her soon startrekuser    How is your wife's relationship with your child? 

[startrekuser]

hello fellow trekkie (I am assuming from your username )

I have been reading this thread on and off and just want to say that I think you are so brave.  I admire your honesty and that you are reaching out for help.  If everyone did this, there would be a lot more healing out there.    

I saw from another post that maybe it would be better not to respond to her emails.  A uBPDb of mine would write me email after email.  And wouldn't even wait for a response from me.    This was how I understood that he was not in reality.  It just seems that if a response is necessary, to keep it simple.  So as not to exasperate the high emotion.    

If she is truly interested in going to therapy, have you ever thought about DBT?  She may start going with the wrong motive at first, but it will be worth it if she keeps going.  I know many places that do this kind of therapy will counsel the spouses and family members too.   If you are the only breadwinner, it would be a good boundary for you to make with her regarding the expense of the therapy.  And good even if she can pay her own way.  

I really really hope the lightbulb comes on for her soon startrekuser    How is your wife's relationship with your child?  

I am a Star Trek fan, but not a "fanatic".  Let's just say that the show and I share something in common and that's the reason for the name.  

Thanks for the praise.  It has been tough over the last couple of weeks.  I've been suffering many stress-related disorders (lack of sleep, indigestion, headaches, backache), but since I've put myself out there and done what I need to do, I'm starting to feel better.  Thank G-d for this board because it's giving me the confidence to know that I'm not crazy and the tools to deal with my wife even though they may not work.  I think she's become more terrified b/c she's used to a certain game where she does the abusing and I agree that I've been bad, wrong etc and then I give in completely.  I'm not playing that game anymore and she doesn't like that.  Her reactions to our discussion last night have no basis in reality and there's nothing I can do about that.

In the past, I have spoken to the therapist that she's going to see and let him know that I think she's BPD.   A few weeks ago he was recommended to us by friends and I called him and spoke to him.  I told him I'm not coming to him unless it's for couples therapy, but I don't think that she wanted to go at that time.  So we'll see what happens.  I think you're right about the costs of the therapy and the attorney.  I should draw some sort of boundaries.  I think her goal is to go and complain about me, which I might help the therapist to see that something is not right with her.  It will get interesting if I then go see him and refute everything she's said.

[Turkish]

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