Hard Day Cont'd 6...

[MaroonLiquid]

Well, today I reached my limit with my wife's crap.  I didn't lose my temper,  get angry  or irate, but kept my cool even though my wife's controlling behavior won't stop.   I called to ask her if she would get the car that she took from me and put it in her name by calling the credit union and signing over the car she "let me have" so that I can trade it in.  She said no and that she wouldn't do anything until the divorce was final.  I said, "Wife, I called to try and work this out for the best of both of us."  She said, "Nope, I'm not interested".  I responded with, "You are being unreasonable... ." And she hung up on me.  I wrote her an email that I'm done and want your feedback before I send it.  I'm at the point where she is controlling everything in my life and keeping me from moving forward in anything.  I'm done with her controlling behavior.  I've had it... .Here is the email that I've written... .

Wife,

    I have reached my limit.  I have tried loving you, helping you, and being there for you when you've been in need even to my own detriment the last four months.  Your behavior towards me and the choices you have made the in these months are hindering my ability to move forward with life, are ungodly and are unhealthy.  Thats your choice and you will have to answer to God for those.  I'm done allowing it.  I will no longer put myself in a position to be mistreated, abused, punished, and stolen from by you.  That's not my issue.  As long as you refuse to get help, I don't have to be a part of it and that's my choice.  You either file for divorce, or I will.

Feedback?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaroonLiquid]

Also, after She hung up on me, I called her back and left a message that she would be responsible for the car note due tomorrow as I will no longer pay it.

[waverider]

If you are genuinely done then I would say you are filing for divorce, take the option out her hands otherwise its gets muddied and around you go again. If you are not willing to follow through by filing then dont send it

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm trying to give her a chance to turn and get help or file herself.  I'm also mainly trying to show her I'm done with her narcissistic controlling behavior and I'm not scared to end it anymore.  I will end it if I have to.  I love her, but it's time she get help.  I hate where we're at, but I have to change it.  The way I've been with her hasn't worked and her power plays continue and she keeps getting worse.

[Grey Kitty]

I think that hitting your limit is a great place to be. Being ready to take action to change things is important resolve. Keep that with you--it will serve you well, no matter what path you take.

Writing the letter is a great exercise for you too.

Sending it to her... .no. I'm looking at your expressed reasons:

I'm trying to give her a chance to turn and get help

If you want better behavior or reconciliation on her part... .the letter is invalidating and threatening, and a bit controlling. It won't hit her like a bolt of lightning and make her come to her senses.

or file herself.

Why do you care if she files herself? I'm not a legal strategist, but it seems that a divorce is a divorce, no matter who files the first papers.

I'm also mainly trying to show her I'm done with her narcissistic controlling behavior and I'm not scared to end it anymore.

Think about this part: "I will no longer put myself in a position to be mistreated, abused, punished, and stolen from by you". If you do proper boundary enforcement, she doesn't need to be told--She will discover that it doesn't work. Telling her this is almost like a secret code for "I'm not able to get you to stop this... .go ahead and try it again, you will probably get away with it next time too." I'd expect that sort of action from her if you let her.

If you are ready to divorce, start making plans for it. That means taking into account your needs. Children's needs. NOT her needs. The question of whether she gets help or not isn't one you can even afford to worry about anymore.

When I got myself to the point of thinking about divorce myself... .a very good friend of mine (who has been through one divorce and one separation already) said this to me:

You do not owe her any explanations ever again.

I also got this gem (edited down to apply to your situation but not mine) off the legal board. Think about it:

One of the things I've noticed on this board in particular is that the more clear your goals, the better you'll be able to develop a strategy. ... .

For understandable reasons (ie. divorce is an emotional decision plus the end of a contract), a lot of people kinda roll a bunch of goals and half-developed strategies together without even talking to a lawyer and getting the basic facts nailed down. Right now, you are working through the emotions of your attachments [r/s and stuff]. That's an early part of the process. The next step is to get clear about your goals and then consult with two or three lawyers and collect information.

[MaroonLiquid]

I think that hitting your limit is a great place to be. Being ready to take action to change things is important resolve. Keep that with you--it will serve you well, no matter what path you take.

Writing the letter is a great exercise for you too.

Sending it to her... .no. I'm looking at your expressed reasons:

I'm trying to give her a chance to turn and get help

If you want better behavior or reconciliation on her part... .the letter is invalidating and threatening, and a bit controlling. It won't hit her like a bolt of lightning and make her come to her senses.

or file herself.

Why do you care if she files herself? I'm not a legal strategist, but it seems that a divorce is a divorce, no matter who files the first papers.

I'm also mainly trying to show her I'm done with her narcissistic controlling behavior and I'm not scared to end it anymore.

Think about this part: "I will no longer put myself in a position to be mistreated, abused, punished, and stolen from by you". If you do proper boundary enforcement, she doesn't need to be told--She will discover that it doesn't work. Telling her this is almost like a secret code for "I'm not able to get you to stop this... .go ahead and try it again, you will probably get away with it next time too." I'd expect that sort of action from her if you let her.

If you are ready to divorce, start making plans for it. That means taking into account your needs. Children's needs. NOT her needs. The question of whether she gets help or not isn't one you can even afford to worry about anymore.

When I got myself to the point of thinking about divorce myself... .a very good friend of mine (who has been through one divorce and one separation already) said this to me:

You do not owe her any explanations ever again.

I also got this gem (edited down to apply to your situation but not mine) off the legal board. Think about it:

One of the things I've noticed on this board in particular is that the more clear your goals, the better you'll be able to develop a strategy. ... .

For understandable reasons (ie. divorce is an emotional decision plus the end of a contract), a lot of people kinda roll a bunch of goals and half-developed strategies together without even talking to a lawyer and getting the basic facts nailed down. Right now, you are working through the emotions of your attachments [r/s and stuff]. That's an early part of the process. The next step is to get clear about your goals and then consult with two or three lawyers and collect information.

What happened to the truth?  I feel like I'm walking on eggshells trying to not be "invalidating" when she doesn't care what the hell she does.  She is out of control.  She thinks everything she does is justified and ok.  I believe in the truth.  It's not always pretty, but I believe, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."  I have done everything I can to try and make things better and she continues to do the opposite.  I can't make her do anything and I know that, but I can't expect to get different results by doing the same things over and over.  That is the definition of insanity.  I am in a place where she is now keeping me from moving anywhere productive and she seems to love it.  I don't. 

[waverider]

The truth is you are not done, or you would be.

To tell her you are done then give her the option because you are not really sure, will be taken as a direct blaming challenge. She will not be moved to resolve the issue, never has, and never will, she will simply embroil you in more fighting. You will become even more the source of her problems.

You may be getting closer to being done, but you are not there yet. You are in despair and are still putting your hopes in demands (requiring her action) rather than boundaries (requiring your action).

If you want to make this into a boundary truth then you need to say "if you haven't sought appropriate treatment by X date then I will file for divorce", if that is where you are at. That combines giving her a chance and you taking a definite step as the default path

[MaroonLiquid]

The truth is you are not done, or you would be.

To tell her you are done then give her the option because you are not really sure, will be taken as a direct blaming challenge. She will not be moved to resolve the issue, never has, and never will, she will simply embroil you in more fighting. You will become even more the source of her problems.

You may be getting closer to being done, but you are not there yet. You are in despair and are still putting your hopes in demands (requiring her action) rather than boundaries (requiring your action).

If you want to make this into a boundary truth then you need to say "if you haven't sought appropriate treatment by X date then I will file for divorce", if that is where you are at. That combines giving her a chance and you taking a definite step as the default path

That's actually what I was looking for was how to set a proper boundary with it.  Not really good at that part.  Thank you Waverider!  And yes, I am done with the way things are, but do want to give her a chance to turn.  I do love her, but can't allow this behavior in my life anymore.  It's toxic.

[waverider]

You will need to be strong and be willing to stand by whatever you say, no matter what. ie The absolute honesty that you are aiming for in order to reestablish your values.

[Grey Kitty]

"If you haven't got appropriate treatment on date "X" I will file for divorce"

I like this kind of boundary.

Here's my recommendation: Before you state this to your wife, start planning what you will do to implement divorce. Talk to a lawyer or two. Really think about what you want to ask for, and get good legal advice about what your chances are in getting it. (You might want to ask some questions on the legal board here)

One thing I've found very useful in making tough decisions is to "Pretend" that I've decided in one direction, and start working out how it will go. Start making plans, and watch how I feel as I'm doing it. I may find that it feels right. Or I may find that it feels very wrong. This tells me a lot.

[Mutt]

MaroonLiquid,

Here's my advice. Are you really done? Or, you're frustrated.

Fear of abandonment.

It may not be a good idea to mention divorce. You may want to rethink that. It may be better to keep that to yourself.

You may trigger her and you're not really ready. It's something to think about. You may be split black.

If you're done you may want to do this quietly. Strategize. An exit plan.

Check SWOE and words you don't say to a pwBPD. You'll see "I want a divorce" in there  

Make sure this is really something that you want and I don't know if I'd set that as a boundary.

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm extremely frustrated.  :)o I want a divorce?  No.  :)o I want to continue this way?  No.  I'm tired of being in limbo and tired of being taken advantage of.  I'm tired of her not working on herself or the relationship and tired of being painted black when I haven't done anything.  She is only getting worse.  I have done everything I can to change myself and change the way I react to her.  Maybe I won't tell her a "drop dead date", and I'll keep that date to myself.  She is the one threatening divorce right now and I know that it isn't uncommon.  I feel like she thinks she can do anything she wants and I'll still love her.  This is tough and I feel like the more I try and change, and the more I try and change the way I react, the more "crazy" she acts.  I finally had it and left a message that I wasn't paying her car note and she was going to figure out how to pay it the other day.  I'm venting, very frustrated and tired of going round and round with her and her mental instability... .another thing, it's almost like the more I move forward with taking care of myself, the more she dysregulates over stupid crap.  And At what point is what she doing to me NOT OKAY!  It's not and I would think I need to stand up to her crap and tell her I won't tolerate it anymore

[Grey Kitty]

I'm extremely frustrated.  :)o I want a divorce?  No.  :)o I want to continue this way?  No.

I get that you don't like either of those choices. I wouldn't either in your shoes.

The way I see it is that if YOU don't choose between divorce and status quo, you are letting your wife pick whether you get divorce or the status quo.

And signing up for whichever one she picks.

[MaroonLiquid]

What do you mean if I don't choose between divorce and status quo.  I agree with you that I need to choose, but what is my version of status quo?  Is my only option divorce?  Is that whar you are trying to tell me?

[MaroonLiquid]

My biggest thing is I don't know how to change it for the better than what I've been doing.  I'm in a rough spot.

[waverider]

If you have done and tried everything, and your life is still lousy the only option left is to leave. If that means a more fixed long term separation, or the finality of a divorce is up to you. In otherwise it's not pending what happens tomorrow/next week. More likely you wont even reconsider for another 6 months/year. Though my guess is she either wont stand for that and will divorce, or you will get so used to not being under the pump you wont go back anyway. It is more a mindset for you to stop stressing about day to day dramas and what is going to happen in the immediate future.

[Grey Kitty]

status quo = continue this way. (With all the crap your wife is currently throwing at you)

I'm saying that if you want something different, you need to change it.

Wishing that your wife will behave differently isn't a change. You've been doing that for a loong time.

You can only change your own actions and attitudes.

Giving up on making her change who she is or what she wants to do, and accepting that she is who she is, with the mental illness she has is a good start. (I wish I was more awake and could give you a better answer for now. But I'm not. Tomorrow, perhaps.)

Can you list a couple things that you are doing now that you would like to change?

[formflier]

 

What did the lawyer say about her taking the vehicle? 

If it is a "joint vehicle"... can you really take it back?

[Mutt]

status quo = continue this way. (With all the crap your wife is currently throwing at you)

I'm saying that if you want something different, you need to change it.

Wishing that your wife will behave differently isn't a change. You've been doing that for a loong time.

You can only change your own actions and attitudes.

Giving up on making her change who she is or what she wants to do, and accepting that she is who she is, with the mental illness she has is a good start. (I wish I was more awake and could give you a better answer for now. But I'm not. Tomorrow, perhaps.)

Can you list a couple things that you are doing now that you would like to change?

I'd like to add to this. It's accepting for how things ARE. Not for what you WISH them to be.

Change comes from you. Change doesn't come from someone else. Once you change everything changes.

[MaroonLiquid]

     Mutt, I have changed, and a lot over this time (almost 5 months).  I do accept her for who she is, and I know that I can't and am not trying to make her change.  I am frustrated at times with the roller coaster... .

     So my wife texts me while I was asleep last night and asked how my weekend was.  I responded this morning with, "I was asleep when you texted.  My weekend was good, how was yours?"  She told me that she was cold and missed me when she went to bed last night.  I told her I missd her too and I missed snuggling with her in this weather.  No response from that... .I will let her be. 

     This is the roller coaster I'm talking about.  Friday she is saying she, "isn't going to do anything till the divorce is final", and now "she missed me when she went to bed last night?"  It's not reasonable, and I don't know how to react to this back and forth sometimes and always feel I'm on guard.  My first thought is, "Is she going to tray and take something from me again?"  I hate feeling that way... .

[Mutt]

I understand the roller-coaster feeling and it's frustrating. Your stomach can feel like it's in knots. You can get off that rollercoaster.

Here's my take MaroonLiquid.

Depersonalize the behaviors. She's saying one thing one day and another the next. It's based on how she feels. Feelings are quicksilver. I didn't read the back story on the divorce. When she said she misses you I think she means it. She said divorce there's resentment there and something triggered this. You're right the messages are mixed. That being said she's feeling two things in a short span of time that are real to her and that's the underlying message. It's BPD and it's difficult for her to clearly communicate needs. Depersonalize to get off this rollercoaster.

It's depersonalizing the words and looking at how she feels. Which can change quickly. Kudos for doing the work for 5 months. Understand it takes time to turn the ship and it's frustrating a long the way. There's no magic pill.

Your text. Another way to communicate your T is using SET.

[Grey Kitty]

Like Mutt said.

Her feelings blow in the wind. That is pretty much the human condition. I'm sure yours do too.

She's disordered. When her feelings flap all over the place, she lets them drive her actions to follow.

You don't do that... .and drive yourself nuts trying to figure out "what she really means" when she does it. Because your mind doesn't work quite that way.

If you accept that this isn't about you, it is about her, it will help you cope with it. And accept that this is what she will continue to do.

The change you can make is to choose not to express things to her that will whipsaw her feelings around. And stop making your choices based on what way you expect her to flap in the breeze of your actions, whether it be your hopes of what she will do or your fears of what she will do.

[MaroonLiquid]

The change you can make is to choose not to express things to her that will whipsaw her feelings around. And stop making your choices based on what way you expect her to flap in the breeze of your actions, whether it be your hopes of what she will do or your fears of what she will do.

Give me an example of this... .

[Mutt]

I'll give you a tip with your text.

Validate how she feels. She needs extra validation. The back and forth is causing friction. To defuse this friction someone has to take the first step. It takes two to tango and it takes one to stop it.

That being said. She's feeling angry and resentful one day because she's triggered. She's also lonely and misses you. A good start is to communicate differently and make the situation win-win. It ends this roller coaster and things start to improve over time.

I was asleep when you texted.  My weekend was good, how was yours?

Feelings are facts to your spouse. She's lonely and she may feel irritation by saying that she's an interruption because she woke you up. You can say your T and show her empathy for how she feels.

I'd like to show you how you can communicate by text to validate how she feels and she'll feel better. Everyone wants to get heard right? With a pwBPD validation is important.

I understand. It can feel lonely when we're apart and I missed you too. We can text earlier and touch base?

SET 

[MaroonLiquid]

She texted me last night at 11, and I texted her when I woke up at 6:15... .I was just letting her know that I wasnt ignoring her.  Hope that makes it clear.  I understand what you were saying though.  She has texted me throughout this morning.  It's actually nice to hear from her.  She must be trying to paint me white... .

[ColdEthyl]

We know what you meant, Maroon. The problem is THEY don't. Learning how to effectively communicate with a pwBPD is a slow, on the job learning process I'm glad to hear she's on an upswing though

She texted me last night at 11, and I texted her when I woke up at 6:15... .I was just letting her know that I wasnt ignoring her.  Hope that makes it clear.  I understand what you were saying though.  She has texted me throughout this morning.  It's actually nice to hear from her.  She must be trying to paint me white... .

[Grey Kitty]

The change you can make is to choose not to express things to her that will whipsaw her feelings around. And stop making your choices based on what way you expect her to flap in the breeze of your actions, whether it be your hopes of what she will do or your fears of what she will do.

Give me an example of this... .

If you mention divorce to her, you WILL set her off.

No, it is absolutely not fair that she's threatening divorce on a regular basis. Still, I bet you have an emotional reaction every time she brings it up. And no, the fact that she's threatened it a bunch of times doesn't mean it won't have an impact on her.

Note... .I'm not saying you should never say something that will upset her. Sometimes your values and your boundaries force you to do so. I'm suggestion you package it well (SET).

It is wise to consider her likely reactions in how you tell her things. If you are deciding what to say based either the reaction you are hoping for... .or the reaction you fear should you say something different, that isn't going to work well.

[Mutt]

Grey Kitty has a point. Package your Truth differently. One way obviously isn't working. Another tip from me is to not throw the D word around. If you've got fight left in you to save your marriage and your using the D word, you may REALLY trigger her fear of abandonment. Don't throw this word around lightly because I think your playing with fire. You may be asking for something more than you bargained for. I'm on the leaving board for a reason. I said the D word.

[formflier]

  Once you change everything changes.

Maroon,

Latch on to this truth... .latch on hard... .and put focus here.  Don't focus on "figuring out" if she is painting you white or black... .just be honest with yourself over how you have acted... what you have said and what worked well and what didn't.

Then... .make sure and stay away from things that didn't go well... .and try to reinforce things that did.

Depersonalize enough... .to make sure that when it doesn't go as you hoped... .that you don't get triggered and make it worse.

Remember... she is trying to "get to you"... .she may not consciously know this... but she keeps baiting... .make sure you don't bite.

You can make things change... .you just can't control her reaction to change... or exactly what she does... but... .you can make it change.

[MaroonLiquid]

So my wife and I texted a bunch this evening.  I validated a bunch!  She asked me if I could take her to her surgery next month to remove an ovary due to a cyst.  I validated her fear of the surgery and the conversation went well.  I'm not trying to get caught up in saying what's perfect or whether she is setting me up to use me again.  Just trying to make things better.  I love her and I do "radically accept" her. 

[Mutt]

That's good news and I'm happy to hear that Maroon Liquid!   It's a positive step. It's frustrating and hard and don't give up hope. It's a work in progress, things will improve if you commit to change. There's bumps a long the way and keep at it.

That's significant Maroon Liquid! Bravo!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaroonLiquid]

That's good news and I'm happy to hear that Maroon Liquid!   It's a positive step. It's frustrating and hard and don't give up hope. It's a work in progress, things will improve if you commit to change. There's bumps a long the way and keep at it.

That's significant Maroon Liquid! Bravo!

     Thanks, Mutt... .I'm trying not to go to the place that she is "just using me again", and instead, just going with the flow and not putting any pressure on her.  I have committed to change since the beginning and one thing that God showed me in scripture was that I needed the "patience to endure" and that "Love is patient".  BPD traits really test the love, patience and endurance of a person.  Sometimes it is easier to "throw in the towel" than it is to do what God is asking, but I "endure" for the reward.  My wife is worth it.  When she is not dysregulated, she is a very loving, caring, affectionate, and passionate woman.  I always knew she lived with a tremendous amount of fear which is why she always used to say, "I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop."  I see things with her so differently now than I did 5 months ago. 

     There are bumps that at times look like mountains, and the storms of this can "rage", but I keep my eyes off of what it looks like and press on.  The other day, I almost "threw in the towel", but sometimes it is always the "darkest before the dawn".  I know that I vent here quite a bit, but it is better to do it here.  Sorry about that guys.  But if anyone understands it is y'all... .

[Grey Kitty]

We're here for you, Maroon!

We'll listen to you vent.

We'll acknowledge your hurt and your pain.

We'll celebrate your successes. Bravo from me too! 

And we'll call you on it when you don't look like you are making your own choices, according to your values and your faith.

[Mutt]

I like this:

"it is darkest before dawn"

I thought I'd pop in and see if I could help and I wasn't here to criticize you.  I learned my lesson after the marriage. There's no easy around this I had to change to end the conflict. What can I say? I'm a stubborn man and it took a difficult personality disorder to learn this lesson.

BPD traits really test the love, patience and endurance of a person.  Sometimes it is easier to "throw in the towel" than it is to do what God is asking, but I "endure" for the reward.  My wife is worth it.  When she is not dysregulated, she is a very loving, caring, affectionate, and passionate woman.  I always knew she lived with a tremendous amount of fear which is why she always used to say, "I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop."  I see things with her so differently now than I did 5 months ago.

We have 2 ears and 1 mouth. We should use our ears more than our mouth. If she's threatening divorce there's a reason why.

It is accepting reality for what it is and flowing with it, when we flow against reality it causes anxiety, stress, frustration.

Much of the behavior is driven by the disorder. You see your spouse for the person that she is loving, caring and passionate. It's not giving into every whim and as formflier said, don't bite when she's emotionally immature. Depersonalize the emotional immaturity. The members here will teach boundaries. I'm happy to hear you didn't throw in the towel out of frustration    Use the boards to vent. Keep patience.

[MaroonLiquid]

I like this:

"it is darkest before dawn"

I thought I'd pop in and see if I could help and I wasn't here to criticize you.  I learned my lesson after the marriage. There's no easy around this I had to change to end the conflict. What can I say? I'm a stubborn man and it took a difficult personality disorder to learn this lesson.

BPD traits really test the love, patience and endurance of a person.  Sometimes it is easier to "throw in the towel" than it is to do what God is asking, but I "endure" for the reward.  My wife is worth it.  When she is not dysregulated, she is a very loving, caring, affectionate, and passionate woman.  I always knew she lived with a tremendous amount of fear which is why she always used to say, "I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop."  I see things with her so differently now than I did 5 months ago.

We have 2 ears and 1 mouth. We should use our ears more than our mouth. If she's threatening divorce there's a reason why.

It is accepting reality for what it is and flowing with it, when we flow against reality it causes anxiety, stress, frustration.

Much of the behavior is driven by the disorder. You see your spouse for the person that she is loving, caring and passionate. It's not giving into every whim and as formflier said, don't bite when she's emotionally immature. Depersonalize the emotional immaturity. The members here will teach boundaries. I'm happy to hear you didn't throw in the towel out of frustration    Use the boards to vent. Keep patience.

So this morning I asked my wife on text if she was feeling better and she said, "Not really."  I used SET and then typed a prayer for her and asked her if there was anything she needed today and no response... .That was at around 8:30 this morning.  I have just let her be and won't force contact.  This happened yesterday and she finally contacted me late yesterday evening.  This is the usual cycle of behavior for her the last 5 months.  She initiates contact, we text for a day or so, and then like the second morning she pulls back and then I won't hear from her most to the rest of the day... .It's strange, but I won't let her know it bothers me.  This is the part of the push/pull of hers that I usually let get to me.  I won't let it this time... .

[Mutt]

It's strange, but I won't let her know it bothers me.  This is the part of the push/pull of hers that I usually let get to me.  I won't let it this time... .

Make indifference to her behavior(s) a goal. It's not personal   SET doesn't always work, it works well when it does.

[ColdEthyl]

This is one of the hardest lessons for us as "nons" to learn. Their vile and venom really IS NOT personal toward us. It happens a lot less than it used to, but when me dBPDh does dysregulate and resort to name calling (this only happens when he's out of cards and still frustrated, usually when I've fell into JADEing) I have gotten to the point that I recognize what's going on, and revert back to SET.

It's strange, but I won't let her know it bothers me.  This is the part of the push/pull of hers that I usually let get to me.  I won't let it this time... .

Make indifference to her behavior(s) a goal. It's not personal   SET doesn't always work, it works well when it does.

[MaroonLiquid]

So my wife called me this morning and asked me what I wanted to do about the car situation as she was going to go and try and get the car loan in her name only next Wednesday.  Completely caught me off guard, but tried not to react and didn't.  I stayed calm except on the inside... .I said that I would rather work on the marriage than split anything else up.  She said to let her know by next Wednesday what I wanted to do because she had plans to go down there next Wednesday and get that done.  I said let's talk about it (meaning we have a couple of days) and she said, that's what I'm trying to do... .I asked if she had anytime to get together to do that and she said she is swamped with work and the kids have things all week and all day Saturday... .I said ok, and she responded, "Just think about it and let me know because if you don't, I'm going to do whats best for me.  I'm just being honest."  My thought was, "Isn't that what you've done for months?"  Obviously I didn't say that, and responded with, "I understand."  I asked her if she was willing to work on "us" and she responded with, "I'm trying".  I thought to myself, "Really, because we never see each other!"    I just said ok.  So I told her I would think about it.  I sent her a text saying that I can understand how hard she must be working to get things done before the end of the year as anyone would missing three weeks of work and was committed to doing what's best for both of us.  Then I sent her a text asking what she wanted to do.  She said what I asked her to do.  I asked why she felt that way and she responded, "What way?  You called me last week and told me to go to the bank and get the car in my name so you could buy another car.  I don't want to go back and forth on this so just tell me which one you want in your name."  I responded with, "I did say that and I can see how that would upset you and send a mixed message of what I have been telling you at times.  I would feel the same way.   I'm trying to understand what your needs are.  That is important to me.  I feel that working on "you and I" is more important than fighting over vehicles, and fighting over petty stuff.  Continuing to split things up only makes things harder on the both of us.  If we are both trying to work on the marriage, then let's make that the focus, and talk about what's best for the family.  If my family needs a different why vehicle then let's work on that."  She said she wasn't upset at all and she agrees with me that this is the right thing to do.  I haven't responded to that.

I'm confused, not reacting, but what is she up to?  I guess I won't know... .   Is she trying to split me black again and finding an excuse?

[MaroonLiquid]

And she doesn't have time to spend with me, but can take the day next Wednesday to go to the bank and get the vehicle loans stuff done... .This is the disheartening stuff that I don't understand... .I'm wondering if she is opening the door to giving me my car back so that she can put me in a no win so if I take it, she can look like the victim and me the bad guy... .

[Grey Kitty]

What do you want to do about the cars? This situation sounds good to me:

One car in your name, with your insurance, your loan, your responsibility to pay for it and keep it running.

One car in her name, with her insurance, her loan, and her responsibility to pay for it and keep it running.

With that situation, there is room for you to be generous and help her out.

What sucked is when she thinks you owe her something on her car, and you don't see it that way. (and then stole your car from you that you had loaned her!)

[MaroonLiquid]

That situation sounds ok.  I validated her on it, but after further texting with her, I see it as a no win ploy.  Here's why... .

She said that she wants to remove the obstacles that we disagree on allows us to deal with the real issues of incompatibility.  So she said pick which car and let me know so that we can get it fixed... .If I pick my car, she will play the victim and say how selfish I am, and will probably balk at the last minute and not go.  If I pick her vehicle, I'd be upside down about $2500 in it.  

    I also asked about the kids and what they wanted for Christmas and she said don't worry about getting them anything, lets pay off a bill we have together.  She has what's tied to that bill, and that only serves her and that makes me look bad to the kids which further her black paining.

    Then she says that she doesn't have the capacity to work on "us" until after the holidays.  Hmmm... .I think she is full of BS... .She kind of said the same thing about the cruise that we would work on "us" after that.  I asked her to clarify if that means we aren't seeing each other until after the holidays, and she said that she doesn't have the capacity to work on "us" during that time.  I just said, "ok".  :)Idn't know what else to say, but I was hurt and pissed.  There is always a crisis in the last 5 months that needs more of her attention than our marriage when in all reality, this is about her and her issues she doesn't want to deal with.  What will it be after that, Valentine's Day, then St. Patrick's Day, the Easter.  At that point, we are looking at almost a year.  I'm not okay with this.  She will continue to put me off until it is "easier" to divorce because we don't know each other anymore.  This crosses another boundary for me.  If you truly care for someone and want to work on the marriage, you would.  Her saying has always been, "People do what they want to do and they don't do what they don't want to do."  Her mother will be in town and that would give us the perfect opportunity to spend time together.  But she doesn't have the capacity... .This is emotional manipulation that I can no longer tolerate.

[MaroonLiquid]

I need to set a boundary over this and thinking of putting my laptop and car in this boundary... .I'm thinking and will have to post later when I am thinking about.

[waverider]

working on "us" doesn't have an easy answer so its always avoided and put lower on the priority list than black and white issues.

Stop worry about how you may be portrayed, her victim / you persecutor, good guy/bad guy. That is reactive behavior. stick to doing what you feel is right, however it looks is no big concern as you will get painted however she feels like painting you anyway.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm with waverider--stop worrying about how she feels, and how she will portray things.

And when i say that, I don't believe you can literally stop thinking about it on a dime--that is very very very hard, and will take a lot of time and work on your part. I mean stop letting those thoughts rule your decisions. Stop even letting them influence your decisions.

Look at it this way:

If she gives back your car, and deals with her car, that is fair and reasonable behavior, right?

If she gives back your laptop, that is fair and fairly reasonable behavior too, right?

(Well, except for the fact that she took them in the first place!)

Let her start being reasonable toward you, then work on "us" with her. Until she does things like that, there isn't much in "us" for you. anyway.

On the practical side... .shut up about the laptop for a couple more days, unless she mentions it.

Just tell her what you want to do about the cars, and let her deal with it. You know what is fair.

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm with waverider--stop worrying about how she feels, and how she will portray things.

And when i say that, I don't believe you can literally stop thinking about it on a dime--that is very very very hard, and will take a lot of time and work on your part. I mean stop letting those thoughts rule your decisions. Stop even letting them influence your decisions.

Look at it this way:

If she gives back your car, and deals with her car, that is fair and reasonable behavior, right?

If she gives back your laptop, that is fair and fairly reasonable behavior too, right?

(Well, except for the fact that she took them in the first place!)

Let her start being reasonable toward you, then work on "us" with her. Until she does things like that, there isn't much in "us" for you. anyway.

On the practical side... .shut up about the laptop for a couple more days, unless she mentions it.

Just tell her what you want to do about the cars, and let her deal with it. You know what is fair.

Why not mention the laptop? 

[Grey Kitty]

To avoid muddying the waters. It is hard enough to keep a pwBPD on topic when there is only one topic!

She's sounding interested in doing something about the cars already.

If she does something reasonable, thank her and go about your day, with a clean title on your car.

You can deal with the laptop next.

[MaroonLiquid]

To avoid muddying the waters. It is hard enough to keep a pwBPD on topic when there is only one topic!

She's sounding interested in doing something about the cars already.

If she does something reasonable, thank her and go about your day, with a clean title on your car.

You can deal with the laptop next.

But why does it feel that my issues get ignored while hers are the ones that are dealt with?  It seems to me that she can always make an excuse as to why she does not get help or have time to... .maybe I'm focusing on the negative, but just curious as to why she keeps running. 

[MaroonLiquid]

Well, like I said yesterday, her "being reasonable" was very short lived and as I thought, she had something in her back pocket that she was going to use to "not be reasonable" and not give me my car back.  Now she threatened to "get rid of my laptop".  

Back Story:  We were on a family plan and I had gotten a phone on monthly installments.  When we split and she forced me to get my own plan, they wouldn't transfer the installment payments to my account and so I told her I would pay her for those.  Well, considering after 3 months of barely talking, I forgot and so did she.  

Current Story:  I gave that phone to my D12 and got a new one.  My wife asked me last night if I still had it and when she texted, I was in the middle of taking care of her car, having dinner with my mom and returning my rental car which was a nightmare.  I told her that I was in the middle of something and would text her later, which is more than I get usually.  She blew up my phone several times, once saying, "It's amazing how you can have time to do everything else but not answer a simple text."     Complete projection and taste of her own medicine because that is exactly what she does to me.  Anyway, after not getting done till 11:30, I texted her and told her that I was home now and it was a nightmare and asked if she was still up.  She didn't respond until this morning and said, "Since you couldn't respond I guess you don't have the phone anymore."  I said that I didn't and she asked what I did with it.  I told her I gave it to my DD12 and that is when the dysregulation started.  She texted back and said, "WOW!  You need to get that back, I'm paying for that."  I literally laughed out loud   .  She then called my ex-wife and asked that my DD12 give that back as it wasn't mine to give.  My ex-wife called me and I told her to not respond and I would take care of it.  My wife then calls me and when I answered she asked if I really gave it to DD12 and I said, "Yes, I wouldn't lie about it."  She said, "Are you kidding me?  After all I've done for you?  You had no right giving that to her as I'm paying for that."  I said, "Wife, I sense that you are upset about it and that is understandable considering I forgot and we never had a conversation about it.  At the same time, I paid $160 dollars to get your car fixed and $300 for a rental car while it was getting fixed that I shouldn't have been out except that you took my car."  She said, "So, I paid $600 dollars to fix it two weeks prior to it breaking down for something else."  I responded and said, "Yes, that car was in your possession and it was yours to take care of."  She then said, "I was a user and only wanted to look good to everyone else and that is why I was carrying a new phone and gave one to my DD12 so that I could look like a hero."  I said, "I'm sorry you feel that way."  She then said that I was a user just like her ex husband and that I was no better than he was and was worthless and pathetic." I said that if she doesn't stop, I will hang up because I don't deserve to be verbally abused, and she said, "You're abusive."  I hung up. She then started blowing up my phone and left two messages.  One was two minutes where she said she was going to file the divorce paperwork and that my laptop was going "bye-bye" today."  (Sidenote: I can't believe she left that on voicemail... . )  She said that I was no good and that she was sorry that she married me and that I had no problem using her or her money for 5 years.  She closed the voicemail with, "I'm so glad I kept all your family's emails and the emails of the people at the church because now they will find out what kind of person you really are."  Then she texted and said, "Sad ending to 5 years of supporting and loving you.  You weren't worth it."  I never responded to any of it.  As I said before, there was a reason she "offered up the car", and it was because she had no intention of ever following through because she was going to create another scene... .I never got angry or raised my voice and stayed calm.  And still am.  Used to her crap by now... .

[Grey Kitty]

  Those games suck.

You sound MUCH better. Like you are accepting what your wife is doing.

Keep up your good work!

What is your plan with the phone?

I'm thinking get another phone for DD12, put it on your plan (if you want to and can afford to), and mail this one back to your wife.

Your wife is proving that she cannot be trusted with ANY shared financial responsibilities, no matter how small.

[MaroonLiquid]

 Those games suck.

You sound MUCH better. Like you are accepting what your wife is doing.

Keep up your good work!

What is your plan with the phone?

I'm thinking get another phone for DD12, put it on your plan (if you want to and can afford to), and mail this one back to your wife.

Your wife is proving that she cannot be trusted with ANY shared financial responsibilities, no matter how small.

I do truly accept her for who she is and what she struggle with.  That's also part of the reason she is has so much vitriol toward me because I have put up with too much.  I feel like the "long extinction burst" fits in her case because she can't go a couple of days without dysregulation when we are in contact.  I still believe she struggle with all that she has done and can't deal with the emotion of it.  And the fact that I am starting to stand up for myself and not give into her every whim is causing the extinction bursts on a regular basis.  She will get through it or she won't.  I don't have any plans for the phone, I paid her car note for four months and paid to have her car fixed that she forced me into.  She wanted this separation and in my opinion, she is starting to live with her choices.  She needs to know I'm not going to roll over everytime she dysregulates.  I feel that giving her the phone "gives her what she wants" after verbally abusing me and sets a bad precedent.  She has a bunch of narcissistic traits and I won't feed them. 

[Grey Kitty]

She needs to know I'm not going to roll over everytime she dysregulates.  I feel that giving her the phone "gives her what she wants" after verbally abusing me and sets a bad precedent.  She has a bunch of narcissistic traits and I won't feed them. 

I like your attitude!

OK... .do something that feels more fair to you. My idea was an easy way out, not a fair one.

Here's another one to try on for size:

Do the math yourself on this.

Add up what you paid for her car repairs and the rental car.

Calculate the monthly cost for your wife of DD12's phone.

Divide them out and see how many months you paid for in advance. (I'm guessing a lot more than three, and likely nearly to the end of the contract.)

Plan to pay the monthly share until the contract expires.

Send an email explaining this to your wife, with the calculations.

Make it clear in the email that she is responsible until the point where you will pay her back.

This email should read like a statement, not a question.

And also let your exwife know that your current solution depends on reasonable behavior from your wife which hasn't been forthcoming much... .and that if your wife does something extreme and shuts off DD12's phone, you will get her a new one on your plan, because you don't want DD12 to suffer for the problems between you and your wife. (Assuming you do wish to do this!)

[MaroonLiquid]

She needs to know I'm not going to roll over everytime she dysregulates.  I feel that giving her the phone "gives her what she wants" after verbally abusing me and sets a bad precedent.  She has a bunch of narcissistic traits and I won't feed them.  

I like your attitude!

OK... .do something that feels more fair to you. My idea was an easy way out, not a fair one.

Here's another one to try on for size:

Do the math yourself on this.

Add up what you paid for her car repairs and the rental car.

Calculate the monthly cost for your wife of DD12's phone.

Divide them out and see how many months you paid for in advance. (I'm guessing a lot more than three, and likely nearly to the end of the contract.)

Plan to pay the monthly share until the contract expires.

Send an email explaining this to your wife, with the calculations.

Make it clear in the email that she is responsible until the point where you will pay her back.

This email should read like a statement, not a question.

And also let your exwife know that your current solution depends on reasonable behavior from your wife which hasn't been forthcoming much... .and that if your wife does something extreme and shuts off DD12's phone, you will get her a new one on your plan, because you don't want DD12 to suffer for the problems between you and your wife. (Assuming you do wish to do this!)

    Let me clarify, the phone is no longer on my wife's family plan as that was the phone that I "took responsibility for" in my own name and got a new one in place of it about a month ago, so she has no access to it.  What she is being charged for is the monthly installments of 30 dollars.  

    I am going to send an email shortly stating what I have paid for the car to be repaired and the rental which totals $506 dollars plus getting the stickers renewed on the vehicle to about $110 dollars.  That brings the grand total of what I will have paid total for the van in two days to a grand total of $616 dollars.  She has paid $30 dollars on her plan for 4 months since I took responsibility for my line.  That is $120 dollars.  There is still 6 months to pay $30 which is $180 for the remainder.  That brings the grand total of what she will pay for the phone to $300 dollars.  I paid $616 dollars and she will pay $300, which leaves her owing me $316 dollars.  

    She had no problem dunning me for money all the time for two months when we first split up.  For 5 months with her, that's what it's all been about.  It's nice for the shoe to be on the other foot for a change.  One thing she said on her voicemail after listening to it again is, "How do you think it makes my kids feel that you gave your DD12 the phone?"  She doesn't understand how a dad could do that for his D when hers didn't do anything for her or the fact that her ex doesn't do anything for the kids.  I realize she is projecting her hurt and anger for her ex and the fact that he does nothing for the kids onto me.  It struck that abandonment in her.  I forgot about the car notes that I have paid for her... .Adding that in as well.

[MaroonLiquid]

Here is the email I wrote and will send tonight.  What do you think?

Wife,

     Here is what I have figured out regarding the phone.  The "installment charges" were paid for 11 months before I "took responsibility" for my line in August.  The installment contract was for 20 months at roughly $35 dollars a month.  That means there is 9 left.  Since that time, you have paid 2 with 7 remaining.

     Here is what I've been out regarding the Honda van that you should have been responsible for since the split on July 1st as we decided together that you would take the Honda and I would take the Lexus SUV:  I have paid 3 van notes, gotten the van fixed, paid for a rental car during that time and have gotten the stickers renewed.  I should not have had to pay for the repairs, the rental car or the stickers (they have been expired since July) in the first place but was forced to when you decided to not return my vehicle (SUV) on September 4th.  I was putting you and our kids first with the agreement that you would use it during the day and in the evenings when needed.  Included in that agreement, we agreed that you would bring me to work until the 6th when the van was supposed to be fixed.  You then told me if I needed a vehicle to come and get the van.

Wife:                2 installments paid for $70dollars

                       7 left for a total of $245 Dollars

                          Grand total: $315 dollars

MaroonLiquid:  3 van notes: $909 dollars

                      Van repair: $120 dollars

                      Rental Car: $355 dollars

                      Registration: $75

                      Inspection: $35

                          Grand Total: $1494 Dollars

     This brings the grand total of what you owe me to $1179 dollars, not counting my MacBook ($1200 dollar value) that you still won't return to me and have had since September.  Take the $1179 and attribute it to the remaining $1300 dollars owed on the LG washer and dryer that is in my name in your possession and we'll call it even.

MaroonLiquid

[Grey Kitty]

  I like it!

Until the last paragraph... .

Take the $1179 and attribute it to the remaining $1300 dollars owed on the LG washer and dryer that is in my name in your possession and we'll call it even.

I'm not sure about this part. It sounds like you are caving again.

You said she still owes you about $1200 plus a laptop.

I won't be surprised if she doesn't pay up.

I don't get why you are so eager to write the debt off, making it OK for her not to pay up!

Are you still making payments on the washer/dryer in her possession?

[MaroonLiquid]

I like it!

Until the last paragraph... .

Take the $1179 and attribute it to the remaining $1300 dollars owed on the LG washer and dryer that is in my name in your possession and we'll call it even.

I'm not sure about this part. It sounds like you are caving again.

You said she still owes you about $1200 plus a laptop.

I won't be surprised if she doesn't pay up.

I don't get why you are so eager to write the debt off, making it OK for her not to pay up!

Are you still making payments on the washer/dryer in her possession?

No, I haven't been, but she was asking me to help pay it off because if we do by Jan 3rd, we will have no interest.  You're right, it's caving, but I also know I will never see a dime as she accused me of.  Should I mention anything about the nasty voicemails she left me and try and validate the anger and bitterness?  She sent my ex wife an email and CC'd me and threatened to call the cops on her if she didn't return the cell phone... .   Ridiculous.  I told her NOT TO RESPOND

[howcanI?]

Jumping in here... .has anyone here ever had success with the "if you don't get into therapy, I'll divorce you" threat?  Things are the absolute worst they've ever been here.  Hubby has not showered in four days, and continues to be sullenly furious and in despair over things that are only tangentially part of objective reality.  I'm actually a little afraid of/for him, and that's kinda new for me.  Has he finally gone off the deep end?  If I maintain a successful SET disengagement (which I'm still holding on to) will he come back around?  Any experiences any one can share?

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife sent my ex-wife an email just now saying if they didnt return the phone that she would report the phone as stolen and tell them where they could find it.    She is really having difficulties over this.  HOW DARE I GIVE A PHONE I TOOK OWNERSHIP OF TO MY DD12 WHILE WE WERE SEPARATED!    She is starting to crack I'm afraid and it's sad to see.  I'm starting to worry that my ex wife will file something on my wife (harrassment or TRO) at this point.  I don't want that to happen for my wife's sake.

[Rapt Reader]

This thread has reached its post limit, and has been locked. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are encouraged to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for understanding