Lack of self-awareness in BPD?

[stolenheart]

I would like to hear other peoples opinions on the lack of self-awareness or self-reflection in individuals with BPD. Is this a universal trait with all BPD to have poor self-reflection skills? How about empathy? I understand that the absence of a perceived, established, fully developed self makes it very difficult to be self-aware and critical about oneself per definition, but how easy is it to notice from the outside and how do BPDs usually react when confronted with the fact of seemingly having little self-awareness?

My BPD was college educated, very independent and had almost savant like abilities in some areas of cognition, yet she had some "weirdness" about her. I noticed it right from the get-go, but did not think much about it, thinking she was just "different". I actually liked that about her. It was thousand little things, like as if she were a foreigner from some small little known underdeveloped country, this is just how outlandish she could appear sometimes. At the same time she could be very confident, intelligent, sociable and talkative on some days and like a different person and the opposite on others. When I saw her acting in a very strange way, each time I was always thinking like, doesn't she notice herself how weird/obvious this is. I still can't get my head around it, how could someone be that intelligent, coming from an upper middle class family, college educated with a graduate degree, lots of job experience and still have some of the weirdest appearance, behavior and character traits I have ever seen?

It took me a while to realize that it was all just a total lack of self-awareness and just an incredible lack of empathy. I think she never felt sorry for anybody else but her. I could do something very nice for her, she would treat me like the worst person on earth in response while blaming me for it, worst of all, she would not see anything wrong about it, how is that even possible? I mean there are people who just don't give a damn by nature but how could someone, especially as a perfectionist, basically obsessed about with how they are perceived and valued by others have an almost not existent self-awareness? I mean she actually was a very knowledgeable person with deep interest in certain things but she was absolutely clueless about others which actually did relate to her in the most direct and obvious ways. This actually made me feel crazy lots of times, because I just could not believe that someone couldn't see the elephant in the room, so it must be me.

I don't think I'm alone feeling this, once you get over the pain, it's the frustration and disappointment which almost hurts as much as the actual pain did.

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[EaglesJuju]

BPD is a spectrum disorder, meaning that some traits are more prominent in some people.

PwBPD can be self aware.  On many occasions, my pwBPD will describe his feelings and the reasons why he behaves a certain way. During these moments of clarity, he knows his way of thinking is distorted. Other times, he cannot understand why he does certain things.  It is almost like a compulsion for him. 

Empathy for a pwBPD is a lack of awareness to understand the feelings of others with hypersensitivity. I think what a non describes as a lack of empathy, mainly has to do with the many coping mechanisms that a pwBPD uses. For example, when my pwBPD does something that hurts me, he will either project, divert or avoid the behavior, or give me the silent treatment.  A non can perceive this as a lack of empathy.  A pwBPD will do this things to avoid the negative feelings such as, anger, hurt, sadness, and self loathing, that may be associated with their behavior.  Other times, it is a lack of self awareness of a pwBPD's behavior.

[Married2monster]

StolenHeart... .I can RELATE!

My husband not only has a completely different side in public and to people at work but he has the ability to turn it on like a light switch.  Even minutes after a really anguishing fight with me.  I remember we had this awful fight in the car and just pulled up to rental car place.  When we sat down with gal in office I was spent.  I was washed out and dreading every second of having to pretend I wasn't traumatized.  He sat down and didn't miss a beat.  In fact... .he flirted with her!  Afterwards he said he didn't realize he was "different" but in same breathe said he was trying to seem normal.  They really will throw whatever will stick to wall won't they?

I think about it in those moments and have asked him how it's possible to NOT know what he is doing and how freaky it is he can change so quickly.  The way he is on the phone with co-workers, etc it's just unreal.  I've told him it hurts to see how "happy" he seems and how much it reminds me of the person I met.  He had confidence.  (I thought anyway) He was FUNNY and charming when I fell in love with him.  It kills me he allows others to see that and it's evaporated for me.  I call him on the contradiction of his self-esteem when he is so magnetizing at work and the life of the party.  He loves to keep people engaged.  I guess that's the enchilada.  He NEEDS that.  I call him out on the contradiction.  How can you be so miserable and feel so worthless and yet be this completely opposite person?  He doesn't see it.  He just clicks it on and off.  With me, he needs to great a firestorm to ultimately confirm in his mind he is worthless.  It's a drug. 

One thing I want to share that's not really related but in the ballpark of having that disconnect.  He told me a few years into our relationship that he was sad about his relationship with his brother.  That he couldn't measure up.  Wanted him to know how much he loved him.  He was crying INTENSELY about this.  Then he said "The thing is I can be around him while he is upset and it won't affect me."  THAT was my first red flag.  Too far gone at that point... . 

[Verbena]

My husband not only has a completely different side in public and to people at work but he has the ability to turn it on like a light switch

Married2monster, you just described my husband.  He can be pleasant to people on the phone or outside the house, but with me he is negative/miserable/monotone/won't respond when I speak to him, and awful to be around.  The pleasant "normal" him is forced.    I get the pleasure of the real him, and 32 years of the real him has destroyed our marriage.

Still, plenty of people have seen his miserable nature and have commented on it to me, and even to him sometimes.  He has zero insight into himself and does not believe that he is anything close to how I see him.  He will not apologize for anything because he is never wrong.  He would not pay me a compliment or say something positive if his life depended on it.  He either ignores me completely or gives one-word replies UNLESS it's a negative topic.  Then he gets fired up.  So I have stopped sharing much of anything with him because I don't really enjoy talking to myself. 

For the record, I am on these boards because of our DD29 who has BPD.  I'm not sure what my husband has.   

[ColdEthyl]

BPD is a spectrum disorder, meaning that some traits are more prominent in some people.

I think this is worth repeating. Some people experience more or less activity in different areas of their thinking because it IS a spectrum disorder, much like Autism. My S10 is Asperger's, which is classified now as "mild autism", but he is really high functioning and only has problems relating socially, though he is learning to read social cues and faces. The difference between him and a child with full blown autism is day and night.

I am sorry you guys are hurting so much. Just yesterday I sat down in the bathroom and had myself a 30 second cry because I had been thinking about my dBPDh all day (he had a dysregulation the night before about a dream he had) and when I got home, he was cold. He's usually cold/quiet/distant after a major dysregulation, so I wasn't surprised. But, we had emailed over the day and he mentioned his neck was a bit stiff so I stopped at the drugstore on the way home from work and picked up a heating pad for him, thinking my gesture would be appreciated.

It wasn't. When I was talking to him and gave him the heat pad, he said "uh huh, uh huh" and it didn't fit with what I said. I said, "Hun? You hearing me?" and he was like "huh... .no I was reading."

My feelings were hurt. Did he do anything wrong? No, he didn't. He's withdrawn the day after a dysregulation and I know that. I know he's not thinking about the gesture in the same way I do. His brain is wired differently. He's not self-aware all of the time.

I plastered a smile on my face, went into the bathroom and threw myself a 30 second pity party. When I got myself together, I rejoined my husband. Even though I didn't cry in front of him, or have a sad look when I came back, he could still tell I think because when I came back in he grabbed my hand and said "thank you for the heating pad baby" and kissed my cheek. That's all I needed. We had a quiet lovely evening together after that.

In the past, if I had showed the hurt on my face, and even said something about him being ungrateful, ignoring me, etc it would have caused a dysregulation. He would most likely not only get upset, but yell and bring up things and cause a big ol nasty mess because he's trying to 'protect' himself from my 'attack', as they see it.

Learning to communicate with pwBPD is incredibly time consuming and difficult, and I'm still just learning.

[Haye]

Hi StolenHeart and

I'd like to second ColdEthyl and EaglesJuju - pwBPD include a lot of differences even though the diagnose is the same there's a bunch of oddnesses one has to have to meet the criteria, but inside the BPD pool there is a lot of variation.

I live with a guy who's aware of his disorder, of his behaviour and rather good in reflecting his behaviour. Sometimes he can alter it and sometimes he is just aware what is going on but cannot (or doesn't want to) change it. Sometimes he describes it being like sitting in the back seat of a car going 100 mp/h on a slippery downhillslope unable to do anything. He knows what is going on, but can't change to course or pull the brakes.

He has also emphathy, but it sometimes it comes out all funny (ie he feels pretty much right but cannot express it or it goes awry, like laughing when someone is crying) or it's suddenly completely lacking. So though empathic at some levels he has trouble relating to (my) feelings like jealousy, insecurity, feeling betrayed etc which come up when he messes behind my back. He sees that stuff hurts me and has learnt it's how people usually feel in those situations, but doesn't understand the feeling at all. It's like a blind spot that makes him appear as totally heartless, while he is not.

Being able to reflect makes it easier to deal with issues that arise, yes, but it also means he is very hard on himself for example when he is out of push part of the push&pull cycle

[Married2monster]

Verbena, that sounds awful.  I have experienced that in a different relationship and it's incredibly draining.  My heart goes to you.  

Thank you ColdEthyl for that enlightenment because I was going to reply to you Verbena, that I am so confused with how our husbands are so similar but so different at the other end of the spectrum.  I understand though you're not sure what he has. I still feel confused though when I see such a consistency on threads that describe their soBPD as insulting and not accountable for anything.  Mine is accountable to the point it's like a drug for him because then he can kick in the self-loathing.  So I really appreciate both replies and input.  I'm realizing everyday I'm on here, that I really am just putting on the training-wells with this after 8 years.  Unfortunately I let this burn me out completely and ruin much of my life.  I just didn't know what I was dealing with.  So confusing when he's so horribly insensitive and just dead inside when I'm suffering (I've had a lot of traumatic family events over last four years and with his bait and switch... .it's been devastating) but then give very convincing statements on how helpless he feels to BPD.  So it's been very difficult to NOT hang in there when he is aware AFTER the fact.  When it's happening; no way.  He's gone.  

ColdEthyl, I really admire you for your strength and think it's great you release the pain you have in the moment.  I've done myself a great disservice not allowing myself to do that.  I'm seeing from your post that it really is possible to live with them.  Makes me feel guilty I didn't research more of what I could do to make this better.  I've been on bad roller-coaster of recovering from one hit after another but I see I've actually helped him set-up those attacks by not being knowledgeable enough.  Therapists I've seen just tell me to run.  That I'm clearly not happy and not getting what I need.  I've invested so much, it's difficult to see it that way but at the same time I need to completely disengage for my health.  My physical health is now suffering from this and I have a son with serious disorders that needs me 24/7.  So... .right now I feel like I have to just take care of me best I can. (My husband is his step-father)

Your dBPDh ColdEthyl responding to you after you took a step back... .I honestly don't think my husband has that ability.  He is so self-absorbed.  The fact that I'm now financially dependent on him makes me feel like he has control and knows it.  So he isn't really sweating me leaving.  Though he puts on displays to try to keep me if I've really had too much.  "Can't live without you." Etc.  Overall he is a scared little boy.

Verbena, while I say mine is different on other end of spectrum he can be incredibly insulting at times but it comes out almost like Tourette Syndrome.  I had a really bad day with my health on heels of another explosive argument/ tantrum with him that lasted for days.  He always LOVES these opportunities to dote on me and try to "fix" things.  We were in grocery store and my son was asking me for this and that and all I wanted to do was get out of there and go home to bed.  My dBPDh was telling me how he was going to take care of me and not to even think of making dinner.  Then he out of nowhere starts bugging me for cookies that he wants!  When we got home I flopped into bed and he came in around dinner time crying.  Sort of... .tears don't fall easy unless they are for him.  It was bait for me to bite and ask what was wrong.  I did.  He said over and over and over, "It's nothing".  Very dramatic.  EXTREMELY annoying and no matter how many times I tell him to stop this because ultimately I will get it out of him; it never ends.  Anyway, I took the bait and kept insisting he tell me what it was.  He said he became emotional when my son who has severe OCD (he has Schizoaffective Disorder/Bi-Polar.) asked him to pray for his food.  (He won't eat unless I pray for him; it's so sad :'( )  Without missing a beat on the end of his sentence he said "What the f*%k do you want for dinner?"     I couldn't believe it!  He couldn't either.  He reached up to cover his mouth after he said it with his eyes popping out of his head.  I told him to exit the room and leave me alone.  He never brought me dinner.  I ended up having to get up and make food few hours later.

So I can relate to the abusive part, just in a different way.  Strength to you both!  

[Married2monster]

It's like a blind spot that makes him appear as totally heartless, while he is not.

That's my guy Haye!  He has empathy but says over and over he doesn't know how to relate and help me.