An apology of sorts

[Ripped Heart]

I've been NC with BPDgf for 2 days now following an outburst earlier in the week. I explained that she cannot be upset with me if I don't answer the phone when she calls and also be angry with me when I do get the time to call back as I have things going on too. Given the outburst, I explained that I needed to take a step back because it was being unfair on me.

It's been a difficult 2 days because she has tried to call, text and email but I wasn't prepared to speak to her at that time and needed that space like I told her. Tonight she called again and I spoke to her. She explained that she was feeling really frustrated the other day because it had been a very long drive for her, she wasn't well and she was also really tired.

My response back to her was that I know it can be a difficult drive, especially in heavy traffic and road works and that I understand how frustrating this could be for her. I also asked her about how she was feeling in terms of being sick and that I was sorry she wasn't well and hopes she gets plenty of rest and recovers soon.

The phone call went rather well considering and appeared like things were as normal as they can be. She told me about some of the things she has done these past couple of days and asked how I was since I had been ill myself last week.

I cut the call short, explaining to her that I didn't want to keep her on too long as she needed rest.

In all, I think there was some progress there, how long it will last I don't know but only time will tell.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Skip]

 It sounds like you are handling this in a mature way, and also a way that will be attractive to her.

I know it's hard. I stay the course.

I noticed use the term "no contact". What you actually mean by that?

[Ripped Heart]

Thanks skip,

When I say NC, I mean that when I take a step back I dont answer the phone, read texts or emails until I'm ready and in a much better place to communicate otherwise it throws me out of sync and we end up doing the dance.

She just called again because she had to take daughter into town. She talked about getting a bike at the end of the month and I suggested we could both take the bikes out for a ride if she does. She mentioned that she had to take a friend out to see someone yesterday and wished she could have got hold of me to join her. So I suggested that if she has to do it again next week I could join her then.

Just playing things nice and calm right now, and keeping the focus on the present. It can be really tough at times but I'm kind of finding that balance. Lots on for me this weekend and next week to keep my focus elsewhere so shall see how things go.

[Skip]

 

[formflier]

Sounds like you are doing well with this.  I especially like the deliberate self examination and assessment of yourself before choosing to communicate with her.  Keep that up... it will serve you well.


One things to chat about below.  I'll pose this as a question... .what is the "danger" in explaining to someone that they shouldn't feel a certain way? 

  I explained that she cannot be upset with me 

[Ripped Heart]

I suppose the only danger I can see is that it can come across as invalidating their feelings when you tell someone how they should feel, because their feelings are their own. That's an aspect I need to work on in how to word things better.

In terms of the dynamic, she gets really upset if I don't answer the phone when she calls. But when I call her back, she is annoyed as though it's an inconvenience to her because I should have answered when she called. That's the message I was trying to convey to her but not necessarily conveyed it in the right way.

[formflier]

I suppose the only danger I can see is that it can come across as invalidating their feelings when you tell someone how they should feel, because their feelings are their own. That's an aspect I need to work on in how to word things better.

In terms of the dynamic, she gets really upset if I don't answer the phone when she calls. But when I call her back, she is annoyed as though it's an inconvenience to her because I should have answered when she called. That's the message I was trying to convey to her but not necessarily conveyed it in the right way.

Good analysis of the danger.  Is that a big danger... or small one?

Why were you trying to convey that message to her... what was the goal?

[Ripped Heart]

It could probably be regarded as a big danger given where her state of mind has been recently. I'm not usually one to disregard her feelings, it's usually the opposite where regardless of how I'm feeling at the time, I would always make time to validate her feelings. So perhaps given that it happens infrequently, it was possibly a small danger in that regard. However, if it was constant I could see that being a big danger so something that needs to be stopped altogether.

My goal is that I found it hurtful and unfair that regardless of which hoop I jumped though, she was going to be critical. I wanted to let her know that it was being unfair and hurtful towards me because there are times when I have other things on so can't jump to her aid. However, when I have a moment free, she is my priority. If she needs help or assistance with something and I'm available, that I will help and assist. What I won't put up with are angry outbursts and nasty comments directed at me when something else is taking priority because it's unfair and hurtful towards me.

What seems to be the common theme is that I do inform her of when I'm in a meeting or going to an appointment and she usually picks that time to call. I've explained before that during those times, my phone is usually on silent and I will call her when I have the opportunity to do so. In terms of appointment with T, we have picked different days, different times and without fail my phone will ring or texts will come through needing me to call her. T has already picked up on this too. As for meetings, they are the same date and time every week or every month. There always appears to be a disaster at the exact time I have something that needs to be done, without fail. There hasn't been a single T appointment where she hasn't called or text and it's usually when I call back that I get the nasty comments and outbursts.

The thing is that when I'm not in a meeting or appointment, my time is hers, she calls day and night, often in the middle of the night when she can't sleep and I answer. So I could understand if 99.9% of the time I wasn't available how she could be angry or upset but she does it on the 0.1% that I'm not around.

[Grey Kitty]

The thing is that when I'm not in a meeting or appointment, my time is hers, she calls day and night, often in the middle of the night when she can't sleep and I answer. So I could understand if 99.9% of the time I wasn't available how she could be angry or upset but she does it on the 0.1% that I'm not around.

Do you like being available on call to her 99.9% of the time?

Do you feel that she owes you something because you are that available to her?

[Ripped Heart]

Do you like being available on call to her 99.9% of the time?

Do you feel that she owes you something because you are that available to her?

Not at all, if I'm not doing anything then yes, I'm more than happy to devote my time to her but there has to be a balance. There are times I do have a lot on or things that need to be done so it would be good to be able to do that.

When we first started dating, there were a few things she was particular on which to be honest were huge   

She told me she couldn't go more than 4 days without us seeing each other because she has major abandonment issues and it would cause her to have a meltdown.

I went out on day to meet up with friends for a couple of hours. Sent her a text when I got home and she said she was relieved because had I stayed out all evening with friends, it wasn't going to work between us.

She once had a meltdown because she tried to skype me whilst I was in the shower. I asked her just to drop me a text if she wanted to go on skype because then I can be ready. She didn't take that very well.

However, these are just some of the things that she asked for and these were things I agreed to so it's not on her, I agreed to them.

As for owing me something, not at all but it doesn't stop me feeling frustrated at times when painted black for something I didn't do fast enough given all the other times I did.

That is all down to me, I had weak boundaries (sometimes none at all) and if I want to break free of being the co-dependent rescuer, I need to start enforcing boundaries because I do play a part in the dynamic and although I don't feel she owes me anything, I do feel frustrated at times. I need to find that balance within myself and learn how to approach things better.

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, you agreed to it.

You can renegotiate it.

And when I say renegotiate, you may have to simply tell her that you will be behaving differently on the phone with her.

For now, set aside any such negotiations... .and dream a little bit.

What would you consider to be a reasonable way to deal with her on the phone? How would you like it to be?

[formflier]

 

quick comment... .more tomorrow

Explaining her feelings to her is dangerous... don't do it.  Very likely will invalidate her... invalidation is BAD!


I'm getting the vibe from reading this that there is an expectation on your part that if you can just explain things to her... she will "get it"... and behave differently.  Am I ontrack with what I am picking up as a vibe?

[Ripped Heart]

This is why I dont do boundaries, too complicated to understand

Phone call, I have no issues around her being angry or upset if I've done something wrong or not followed through. I feel hurt when I get nasty comments or outbursts over something I haven't but that's been my life so I accept it.

As for an expectation, in some ways that's true. She has had outbursts before and then apologised because she knows she has a disorder and does blame it on that. So yes, when she has an outburst, I do sometimes hope she is able to detect that its not right or fair. Its not so much about her behaving differently but this is what I'm struggling to understand.

Boundaries are a certain level of expectation to avoid me feeling hurt and upset. At the same time I shouldn't have any expectations of BPDgf not to cause me hurt or upset through her outbursts or nasty comments. I should be clear about what I will tolerate but also not say anything because it might cause a reaction.

This is where I really struggle and why its just so confusing 

[Grey Kitty]

This is why I dont do boundaries, too complicated to understand

Can we help you work out how to enforce boundaries? Pick one specific boundary.

I don't always find it easy to enforce boundaries... .but I do find it simple. There is no need for them to be complicated.

[patientandclear]

Ripped, two observations.

You seem to be back in the relationship, but as far as I can tell, the serial infidelity issue has not been addressed. I'm wondering what's going on there. If it's a boundary for you, I would be missing that if I were her. Fuzziness about such things sends mixed messages and sets you both up for a collision down the road.

Second, more to do with this thread: I could be missing something, but it feels like your use of NC and then limiting communication is somewhat punitive. She reacted poorly to something you said > you withhold communication or ration it.

I don't get what this is supposed to be accomplishing. It may make her run like a rat in a maze for a little bit trying to win back your approval, but that is a dynamic that will build resentment. Toying with abandonment fears to regulate someone's behavior doesn't seem like a good strategy to me.

[formflier]

There is no need for them to be complicated.

I'm also wondering if the values behind the boundaries that you are trying to enforce or "use" are settled in your mind and heart.

I think after you lay out a couple boundaries that you are trying to enforce... that we will be able to dig backwards and ask you some questions about the values that you are trying to express... or "live out"

Hang in there... .we can help this get better... .less complicated... .

[patientandclear]

I would just urge that you know why you're doing what you're doing before you do it. Jerking yourself and her around btwn NC and going on nice outings is really scary and hard, and it would be good if it were clearly defined what she needs to do to not violate your boundaries. And NC and curtailed willingness to engage is generally not a boundary enforcement mechanism. Taking a break during rages, yes. But rationing contact somewhat arbitrarily and without specific conditions for returning (which you then stick to) builds fear which will ultimately play out in ways you don't like.)

[Ripped Heart]

This is where I kind of lose hope and get really confused. In a similar way to the vortex of emotional turmoil that pwBPD suffer, I go into a brain frenzy with information overload. Kind of similar to the black and white thinking pwBPD experience. With AS, rules have to be simple and straight forward, point A to point B and I have to understand the logic behind the rules in order to process them. When rules have a clear path, it's much easier to follow but any deviation means I have to re-analyse and refocus otherwise I go into an overload pattern where nothing makes sense.

I understand the questions being posed and to me they make perfect logical sense. However, being able to process a solution is far harder for me and is what is causing the confusion right now. Boundaries are completely new to me and in a sense, it's similar to asking someone to design a car having never seen one in the first place. I understand the concept of what is being asked but have no idea on how to begin or what is the right rule set to use for any given situation. It's this what causes my confusion.

PatientandClear  , I actually meant to post this in on the undecided board, maybe subconsciously I posted it on the Staying board for a reason. The infidelity issue isn't addressed in it's entirety but as I've mentioned on previous posts, I believe that it's about moving forward now and finding a way for me to deal with what has gone before. I did tell her outright that I knew what had gone on but she denied it and said it hurt that I could even suggest such an allegation. It isn't a hunch as I do have the evidence but this is where it gets tricky. If I continue to confront her, I continue to hurt her feelings and given whats been said below, doing that am I not invalidating her feelings by having to be right?

As it stands, I've made it clear to her that I can't have any relationship with someone who cheats, be that as a partner or even a friendship. That if she isn't interested in making things work and just keeping me along until something else comes up, I would appreciate the honesty so that I can step away now rather than be hurt further down the line. I feel that this has explained how I feel around infidelity moving forwards and what my actions would be should it occur in the future.

As for the NC, that is for me and not as a punishment. The current dynamic is that I tell her I'm not happy about something, an hour later I get a completely irrelevant text, respond to it and it's like anything I had to say meant nothing. There is no apology, it's like whatever I feel doesn't matter. So given what I've read on the site and what others advise, I tell her that I'm not happy or hurt by nasty comments and I'm taking a step back because I won't be spoken to in that manner. But in the same respect, I'm also hearing that is the wrong approach. So I get totally confused as to the right way to approach it. It's not like i suddenly cut her off, I explain why I'm taking a time out so to speak. If I was to respond when the irrelevant text comes in, then I'm not enforcing my boundary because then I'm saying, I'm taking a time out but it's ok, things haven't changed. I find that even more confusing.

So I guess what I'm trying to ask is what is the right way to deal with such a situation because that's what I find difficult about this boundary issue.

I felt that explaining to her that if she continues with outbursts and nasty comments, I will take a step back because I deserve not to be spoken to in that manner was laying down a boundary. It was the non-rationing of communication which to this point has kept the cycle going because jumping straight back into communication when I'm still hurt about her actions, isn't that the same as bending to her wants and needs and disregarding my own feelings?

[Grey Kitty]

  You do sound confused on boundaries. But I think you are closing in on it. This helps me understand:

The current dynamic is that I tell her I'm not happy about something, an hour later I get a completely irrelevant text, respond to it and it's like anything I had to say meant nothing. There is no apology, it's like whatever I feel doesn't matter. So given what I've read on the site and what others advise, I tell her that I'm not happy or hurt by nasty comments and I'm taking a step back because I won't be spoken to in that manner. But in the same respect, I'm also hearing that is the wrong approach. So I get totally confused as to the right way to approach it. It's not like i suddenly cut her off, I explain why I'm taking a time out so to speak. If I was to respond when the irrelevant text comes in, then I'm not enforcing my boundary because then I'm saying, I'm taking a time out but it's ok, things haven't changed. I find that even more confusing.

You told her you weren't happy about something. Can you back up a bit, to the point where "something" happened, where she did or said something that was hurtful or uncomfortable to you? Please be as specific as you can.

Then relate what you said to tell her you weren't happy.

And the specifics of her unrelated text.

And again what you sent her in response to it.

... .I suspect you are trying to enforce a boundary to change past behavior, and they don't work that way. Boundary enforcement is a way to protect yourself from the immediate consequences of immediate behavior. But I'm not sure, and need more details of the story to really help you do something differently.

[formflier]

 

I'm interested in the answers to GKs questions as well... I think we are about to be able to give you some good guidance.

So... .is your boundary that you won't be with someone that cheats?

If that is oversimplification... .let me know.

If I have missed it... .please write out your boundary.  Separate the boundary from the action to protect it... .

[Skip]

With AS, rules have to be simple and straight forward, point A to point B and I have to understand the logic behind the rules in order to process them. When rules have a clear path, it's much easier to follow but any deviation means I have to... .

What is AS?  Sorry if I missed it earlier  

As it stands, I've made it clear to her that I can't have any relationship with someone who cheats, be that as a partner or even a friendship. That if she isn't interested in making things work and just keeping me along until something else comes up, I would appreciate the honesty so that I can step away now... .

I might be able to clarify this a bit.

Value: Monogamy

Boundary: You define what is out of bounds to you - is it sexual intercourse, emotional involvement, is it contact with prior lovers, etc. - we don't all define it the same.

Communication: Telling others how you see it for you.  

Enforcement: What you will do if your value is violated.

All the terminology is just to provide a common framework to discus the components.

Make sense?

What you are trying to sort out, I believe, is what is the definition of each category and that is the hard part.  Having values comes with a cost.

[formflier]

Having values comes with a cost.

And... .having values comes with big benefits.

It's up to each person to figure out if the cost... .is worth the benefit... .and vice versa.

[Ripped Heart]

I told her that the outbursts hurt when I've not done anything to deserve them and that I wasn't happy at getting nasty comments when they weren't warranted either. The last outburst was the fact that regardless of how many times I've explained that I'm in a meeting or appointment and that my phone will be on silent, she will call regardless and then get angry at the fact I didn't pick up the phone when she called. Likewise, when I am free and do call her back, it's an inconvenience to her because it's not the time she wanted me to call, I should have answered the phone when she called. After the last time, I told her I needed a time out because I found the outburst hurtful given that I had already told her I would be unavailable at that time.

As for the text, it was to let me know she was taking her daughter in to town, wasn't feeling well and had seen a handbag on sale that she considered buying.

Yes, my boundary is that I can't be with someone who cheats, it's more about the sex element to me than emotional involvement. I've had previous gf's who have done that (though I was a soldier and away a lot of the time) but when found out decided they didn't want to be in an r/s but lets still be friends. I can't do that with someone who has hurt me either.

AS - Aspergers Syndrome

[formflier]

Yes, my boundary is that I can't be with someone who cheats,

OK... .this is clear.  Is there a time limit to this... .or is it an absolute?

For instance... .if someone cheats... says sorry... .is "clean" for several months... will you give the r/s another go.

Or... .is it a zero tolerance thing... .one cheat... .that r/s is over... ?

[formflier]

I told her that the outbursts hurt when I've not done anything to deserve them

Possibly an invalidating statement.  Can you read it... think about it... and figure out how this may invalidate her?

  regardless of how many times I've explained

So... do you think if you explained it again... .would it make a difference?

  then get angry at the fact I didn't pick up the phone

Are you responsible for her anger?

  I found the outburst hurtful given that I had already told her I would be unavailable at that time.

Would the outburst have been less hurtful if you had not already told her?

[Grey Kitty]

I'm going to leave the issue of infidelity aside today; I've done quite enough with it lately!

This issue can be handled by much easier boundary enforcement:

I told her that the outbursts hurt when I've not done anything to deserve them and that I wasn't happy at getting nasty comments when they weren't warranted either. The last outburst was the fact that regardless of how many times I've explained that I'm in a meeting or appointment and that my phone will be on silent, she will call regardless and then get angry at the fact I didn't pick up the phone when she called. Likewise, when I am free and do call her back, it's an inconvenience to her because it's not the time she wanted me to call, I should have answered the phone when she called. After the last time, I told her I needed a time out because I found the outburst hurtful given that I had already told her I would be unavailable at that time.

Start by not being there to accept the outbursts. When they happen.

If she calls and you don't answer, that isn't a problem for you.

Tell her that you answer when you can, and don't answer when you can't. And tell her that you won't call her back if you get a voicemail/text that is about your not answering the phone. Then don't. Just ignore those texts/voicemails. (If she gives you a whole series of raging ones, and you find them triggering, delete them without listening/reading)

When she next calls, and you can answer, or when you do call back, if you get berated for not picking up the phone, say goodbye and hang up. Perhaps "I won't be spoken to like that. Goodbye. Click"

Or if she is reasonable in asking you to call back, but when you do, you get a ration of crap about it being inconvenient to her, say "Since it is inconvenient now, when do you want to talk?" (and if you don't get a good answer, "Goodbye."

[Notwendy]

RH, I am going to address a specific issue that could make this relationship difficult. As I understand, you have AS, a condition that requires someone being straightforward with you, and clear about their emotions, as people with AS aren't generally adept at identitfying emotions well. A good partner for someone who has AS is someone who is very honest, reliable and not manipulative. People with AS are generally not manipulative because they are not as skilled at decieving people. Hence, they are also easily manipulated as they don't assume this motivation in others.

I could be off base here, but many people with AS are also somewhat socially isolated and a bit naive as social situations are stressful for them. Most single men would like to be with an attractive and attentive woman, but a man with AS may not be as adept at recognizing a healthy relationship. In fact, many of us here in relationships were not able to recognize that so AS is not the only situation that would predispose someone to that.

Because of their disorder, pwBPD are manipulative, not always telling the truth, and emotionally volatile. It is hard for partners to figure out what is going on. However, for a person with AS who needs people to be straightforward, someone with BPD would be quite a challenge to have as a partner.

For all of us, it comes down to looking at ourselves and our relationships and what issues we had that got us here. Many of us have children and situations where it is complicated to walk a way. I know we are not supposed to suggest leaving a relationship and I am not telling you to do this. However, since you are not married, and I assume that you don't have children together, you are in a position to ask yourself if this relationship is good for you and not stay if you decide it is not. You can also take steps to help yourself in relationships. Intimate relationships are hard for both people with AS and BPD, but for different reasons. I think getting counseling from someone who has skills with working with people with AS might be able to help you decide what you need in a relationship and some coaching to help you achieve it.   

[Notwendy]

I'll add some information about boundaries. We all have them, but sometimes they are not strong. A boudary is something that belongs to you, not something you enforce on others because we can't control what they are going to do. For instance you can set a boundary: "do not call me during meetings". She can do what she wants, call every minute if she wants. However, you can protect your boundary- when you are in a meeting, turn off your phone.

If you say I am NC, she might still call, so the only way to enforce NC is not to answer or call back, even change your number if you don't want to be contacted by her.

However, if you say you will not contact her, and you do, then she learns that it is OK to cross your boundary and you are reinforcing her attempts to try. Also some people with BPD consider a boundary a challenge and try to cross it even when they are asked not to.

A boundary can be your own inner value system. Some people want to be with someone of their own religion. They would not enter a relationship with someone of another religion. Some people would not be in a relationship where there is infidelity, so they do not stay in one where there is. A boundary can be your "bottom line"- what you absolutely won't do for someone. You might agree to do something you aren't interested in doing, but would not do something like rob a bank, or murder someone, no matter who asked, because that crosses a moral boundary.

You can decide what behaviors you do not wish to participate in and what you will not tolerate not just for your GF or from anyone else. It's about what you are going to do, not what she does.

If you truly want to be NC from her then you must not make contact, or reply to her making contact, no matter how many times she calls.

[Ripped Heart]

RH, I am going to address a specific issue that could make this relationship difficult. As I understand, you have AS, a condition that requires someone being straightforward with you, and clear about their emotions, as people with AS aren't generally adept at identitfying emotions well. A good partner for someone who has AS is someone who is very honest, reliable and not manipulative. People with AS are generally not manipulative because they are not as skilled at decieving people. Hence, they are also easily manipulated as they don't assume this motivation in others.

I could be off base here, but many people with AS are also somewhat socially isolated and a bit naive as social situations are stressful for them. Most single men would like to be with an attractive and attentive woman, but a man with AS may not be as adept at recognizing a healthy relationship. In fact, many of us here in relationships were not able to recognize that so AS is not the only situation that would predispose someone to that.

Because of their disorder, pwBPD are manipulative, not always telling the truth, and emotionally volatile. It is hard for partners to figure out what is going on. However, for a person with AS who needs people to be straightforward, someone with BPD would be quite a challenge to have as a partner.

For all of us, it comes down to looking at ourselves and our relationships and what issues we had that got us here. Many of us have children and situations where it is complicated to walk a way. I know we are not supposed to suggest leaving a relationship and I am not telling you to do this. However, since you are not married, and I assume that you don't have children together, you are in a position to ask yourself if this relationship is good for you and not stay if you decide it is not. You can also take steps to help yourself in relationships. Intimate relationships are hard for both people with AS and BPD, but for different reasons. I think getting counseling from someone who has skills with working with people with AS might be able to help you decide what you need in a relationship and some coaching to help you achieve it.   

NotWendy, you sum everything up perfectly 

My T is someone who works with AS so it does make things much easier to understand and work forward, for now though I'm still in the dissection phase. There are multiple elements to my involvement in previous relationships which aren't just related to AS but have other factors such as my own FOO. I often wondered if my involvement with pwBPD was partly down to the fact that I identify with logic over emotions where pwBPD identifies with emotions over logic, therefore we are at the opposite ends of the scale. I also imagine that I could be just as frustrating to someone in a healthy relationship as someone is with BPD to others.

You raise some good points around manipulation and this has been an issue in the past, though I tend to be a little more aware of it as a result. Just as a blind person might be able to tune in to their other senses, we learn by studying people. We have to in order to identify and understand someone elses moods and emotions. I think that might be part of my issue is the amount of time and effort taken to learn someone, makes it difficult to want to let go and coupled alongside co-dependency and rescuer personality is mentally exhausting.

I do need rules, structure, people to be blunt and straight forward as I struggle with reading between the lines so playing a guessing game, I would usually take things as they were said though also knowing there could be a hidden meaning and then struggle to figure it out. I don't struggle too much with social situations though do need notice in order to plan for them, another reason I loved my relationship with BPDgf because when the focus is on her, I don't have to think about everybody and everything else.

Grey Kitty - Not answering is not an issue for me but hearing the phone ring causes a level of anxiety, same with a text coming through. hence why when I've mentioned NC, it's not been as a "punishment" but as a way for me to control my own feelings of anxiety. I've already discussed the calling back when I can with her but it doesn't change anything and what you said about me telling her I won't call back and ignoring them is what I thought I had been doing.

Formflier, I've tried but I can't understand why that would be an invalidating statement. I thought it was expressing how I felt around an action she was taking. I'm not responsible for her anger and as far as it being less hurtful if I hadn't already told her, I would have to say yes to that. My belief there is that if I hadn't informed her that I would be unavailable then the responsibility would be on me and for me to deal with.

As for the cheating aspect, I don't know if I could answer that. I guess it would depend on the situation and at what stage I was at in my own healing. I don't know if I could enter back into a relationship with someone who had done that. However, I did once have another girlfriend many years ago who cheated but got back in contact several years later and apologised. I wouldn't say we are friends now but more casual acquaintances but that's more to do with indifference than anything else. 

[Ripped Heart]

Had a phone call from her again tonight to tell me all about her day and that she had just been swimming with her friend at the gym. Once she finished telling me about her day she asked what I was doing with myself tomorrow and that's where things got a little complicated.

Tomorrow evening, I'm out with a few friends who 2 just happen to be female and one of them she has already met. I was honest with her about my plans for tomorrow and told her that I was going out with friends and when she asked who, I told her the truth. She let out a sound that was more reminisce of being stabbed through the heart and the whole tone of the conversation changed. She was suddenly lost for things to talk about and then had to go but hoped that I had a good night tomorrow night.

I know that something threw her off guard and I do feel bad about it. However, I'm not going to lie to her and tell her I'm just having a night in or hide the fact that some of my friends are female, she knows that already. She also knows that these have been friends for almost 10 years and we have helped each other through a lot over those years. I'm not entirely sure if it's the fact I'm out with females tomorrow or the fact I'm out at all which has thrown her. She didn't rage about it or have an outburst but I know something in what I said has hurt her and I'm certain it is because I'm out with females.

I do see an amount of mirroring going on right now which is blatant and obvious. I bought a new bike recently so I can get out cycling, she is buying a bike at the end of the month when she gets paid. I started back at the gym a few weeks ago with a friend of mine who I served with in the army, she joined a gym tonight with her female friend. I looked at planning a weekend away with my military friend (we used to go on weekends away to watch the boxing and thought it would be good given the years we both had to have a break) she plans a weekend away with her friend. There are lots of other little things too but definitely a lot of mirroring going on.

Again, another area I have a hard time navigating because I didn't want to explain or justify why I was going out with my friends and answered the questions she put to me. Was I right to tell her or should I have kept it to myself and played down my plans?

[Notwendy]

RH, you don't have to lie about going out with friends.

Her feelings are her feelings not yours, and you don't have to manage her feelings.

Hiding or playing down your plans to keep her from being upset is managing her feelings.

You also don't have to tell her or anyone else your plans if you don't want to.

She may call you and try to talk you out of it, or make up or find some reason to get you not to go, but her feelings are not your problem. Go and have a good time.

You are doing nothing wrong by spending time with friends, male or female. You are not a married man. Some relationships with female friends might not be so appropriate if one is in a marriage, but that depends on the friendship and the situation. Going out with a group of friends when you are married or in a relationship isn't cheating, and people can be married and also have friends.

Do not sacrifice your friends for a relationship. A relationship that demands you sacrifice your friends and interests is not generally a healthy one.

Keep your friends, and your plans. Have fun. Don't let he spoil it. When you are with your friends, you can turn off, or down your phone. If there is an emergency, people will leave messages. Her emergencies are not your responsibility.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ripped Heart]

It's most certainly thrown her out of sync, been a very interesting evening since that call.

Had one of her "friends" contact me by email to tell me I'm being extremely foolish. When I asked why, the response back was for offering to buy her a brand new UHD Curved 3D TV. Told her I knew nothing about the TV and 20 mins later got a phone call from BPDgf telling me about this TV she has seen and wanted my advice on it. I may have AS but even that is blatant 

I've been caught out with that in the past where I have bought her things but that's going too far especially right now. Given the price of it too, it's 2 months salary for her, she is deeply in debt, already committed herself to her daughters birthday present next month and the weekend away with her friend as well as all the bills she is behind on. Something is going to break and that's the part where I've stepped in before and saved the day.

She also wanted to tell me she had no plans this weekend but given that I do, she is going to "try" and have a good weekend.

In October, my daughter lost her grandfather. My exgf (who is very normal) contacted me as it was her father. She was in a bad place and knew our daughter needed the support but knew she too wasn't in a position to give her what she needed and wanted my help which I gladly gave. BPDgf, took that as a plot for me and exgf to get back together and caused major disruption on the day. She wanted the attention on her and I ended up trying to support all 3 of them, 2 with valid reasons and 1 because she didn't like the attention being away from her. Support my exgf by taking some of the pressure off her to allow her space to grieve, supporting my daughter because it was a huge loss for her and supporting BPDgf because she was having a childish tantrum.

So given that, I have no doubt I will get phone calls tomorrow night and at some point the outburst will come.

[patientandclear]

Hi again Ripped. First, sorry about the information overload you noted above. I get how it's exacerbated by AS but I actually think that state is pretty characteristic of many of us trying to figure out the whys and hows of "not making it worse" and handling a r/s with someone wBPD. I found it exhausting to keep straight many of the shoulds and shouldn'ts.

Something you wrote above confuses me. You wrote that you aren't sure that you would go back to a r/s with someone who cheated. Sounded like you thought you wouldn't absent an apology, taking responsibility, and maybe some space and time.

But here you are taking her back right away without any acknowledgment. She's denied it. And you know the denial is untrue.

I think you'll want clarity around this. Why is this r/s causing you to behave differently than you think you would generally?

[Ripped Heart]

PatientandClear, thought about this a lot over the course of the evening and I think there are so many factors at play.

First and foremost, I believe I'm still in denial and so want to believe she is telling the truth. I also feel a lot of guilt for how I found out because had I not found out that way, I still would have been none the wiser. I know that makes no sense at all because she did what she did but I think some of this is because of my own guilt.

The earlier gf that I mentioned, when confronted was honest about what she did and funnily enough, even though that hurt, we still parted on good terms. I at least understood why she did what she did even if what she did wasn't right. If anything my sister took it harder than I did because it was her friend and she cheated with my sisters best friend. I was the one who ended up consoling my sister over it.

Another part of me is because I went to hell and back with exN/BPDw, to breaking point and beyond. I didn't know about BPD at the time and I also carry a lot of guilt around how I reacted to some things because I dismissed a lot of what she said to me simply because it made no logical sense. Given that r/s this one has been much kinder and nicer even though it's had it's moments. I think there is a part of me that knows I failed my exN/BPDw and trying to atone for it this time around. I mentioned about doing things differently to my T at the time and he said, there was nothing I could have said or done that would have changed the outcome. However, given how my mind works, I can't fully understand that unless I've experienced that otherwise it will play on my mind like an itch.

I also know there are things I cannot bring to a healthy relationship which NotWendy touched on below. Something I've also discussed with my T is that I spend a lot of time and energy learning people and adapting but very few have taken that time to learn me. I guess in some respects I do understand how much effort it would take someone and would feel bad for them to go to that trouble. BPDgf is perhaps the closest person outside of my friends who has taken that time, all be it in some form of mirroring.

Had a long conversation with her "friend" tonight and I'm most definitely seeing a pattern emerging which has brought some clarity and answers along the way. Yet still I feel that I can do something by working on myself first and at least then I know I did the best I could. I'm finding boundaries very confusing but I also see from your posts where I join in the dance and right now it's still an automatic response for me. She jumps in the water and I'm right there to jump in and rescue her. I have a lot of work to do on myself to stop that from happening but for now I'm starting to see the patterns and identify some of the manipulation.

I know for a fact that at some point in the next month she is going to ask for money because she's struggling. I don't think for one minute she will ask me for the money for the TV, instead I think she will miss bill payments, car tax payments, run out of gas and electricity and ask for money towards them instead whilst she spends elsewhere. I also know that her "try" to have a good weekend was aimed towards me cancelling my plans to take her somewhere instead and then I will get 2 days of silent treatment after being cast aside.

I also have an element of fear towards her right now from what I saw tonight. Her "friend" is also a friend of a girlfriend of my BPDgf's exbf (quite the tongue twister) it seems she sent her a message last week to tell her she has been sleeping with her ex behind his girlfriends back. I was sent screenshots of the messages That isn't true but that's the level she is at right now where she is trying to break up relationships out of revenge for people leaving her. She also had another exbf, who she got the RO against arrested again this week after telling police he has been in contact again breaking his RO. The truth is that she is the one who has been contacting his family members. So in a sense, given what I have going on right now, there is a level of fear because I don't want or need the hassle.

In terms of taking her back, I haven't seen or spent any time with her apart from when I took her for dinner the other week. It's been solely text, phone and email so there is still an element of distance. I thought I was doing quite well before but then put myself back in it after the suicide threats and rejoined the dance. I felt that if this is how things are going to be, then I need to continue to make the changes I do and see what happens from there. I just find a lot of things confusing right now.

[patientandclear]

I sympathize completely with the confusion. I am still confused after years of daily reflection, research, investigation ... .

I'm glad you are identifying part of your feelings about all of this as fear of her reprisals if things go off track in her mind. Not allowing fear to drive choices is super important to making sure you don't live your life in a box of somewhat else's making. Scary I know to take the risk of busting out of that box--but that's no way to live.

For what it's worth, you do seem to be in a r/s. Even if you haven't seen each other, there is daily confiding about stuff in a way that really only occurs btwn partners. And there is planning for date-like activity. For all intents and purposes, you are in the r/s but just acting kind of distant some of the time. Not saying that being in the r/s is not a viable choice ... .Just urging that you not kid yourself that you are not in a r/s with her.

[Grey Kitty]

Ripped, I agree with P&C--You are in a relationship with her still, given the amount of daily contact an knowledge of her daily life.

First and foremost, I believe I'm still in denial and so want to believe she is telling the truth. I also feel a lot of guilt for how I found out because had I not found out that way, I still would have been none the wiser. I know that makes no sense at all because she did what she did but I think some of this is because of my own guilt.

Hoo boy, do I know that feeling. It is so hard to accept that somebody you love chose to do something that hurts you so much. 

I know for a fact that at some point in the next month she is going to ask for money because she's struggling. I don't think for one minute she will ask me for the money for the TV, instead I think she will miss bill payments, car tax payments, run out of gas and electricity and ask for money towards them instead whilst she spends elsewhere.

You know this will happen. I believe you. Time to prepare for it in advance.

Do you want to bail her out financially when she asks?

[Ripped Heart]

Yes, it's still a relationship in one regard, hence why I'm between the undecided and staying boards. However, it's not like the relationship was in terms of being a physical relationship is perhaps how I meant to say it.

As far as bailing her out, that isn't going to happen. She asked me straight out last month and because she asked and because I could, I did. That was so she could buy the gift for her other daughters 18th birthday. She did promise to pay me back for that at the end of this month but I don't see that happening to be honest.

She doesn't usually ask outright either, her plan of attack is usually to have a meltdown or call in tears because everything is so overwhelming, that she is cold and hungry and hates her life. It's at that point where I offer and she gracefully accepts. It's the same pattern over and over again but the difference now is that I see it, so I know what is coming over the next month and the backlash that will also come when I say not this time. Am I prepared? Not in the slightest but since I know what's coming I have some time to prepare.

She has studied me in that she knows that when my exgf asks for anything for my children, I respond. They are my children and I won't let them go without. BPDgf has been annoyed at me in the past for that because it's like exgf has control, in a sense she does but again it's not about her it's about my children and if I can help out in any way, I do.

So BPDgf has started using that tactic too. As with last month, it wasn't about her, it was about her daughter and that's why I helped her out. I have my own issue around that as despite her kids not being mine, I wasn't prepared to see them go without either. In November I covered all of her bills so that she had money to get the gifts she wanted for her kids, only she spent the money she did have on herself and then had a meltdown over the fact she had no money to do what she wanted to do.

I know it's coming in January, given what she has set herself up to pay out again for herself with her eldest daughters birthday coming up. So my suspicion is that she is going to make a deal about her bills and struggling based around the fact she needs money to get her daughters gift next month and it's certainly not cheap. She ruined Christmas for eldest daughter, ended up with her daughter going home on Christmas Day upset and I fully understood from her daughters side.

Imagine for example, that you keep telling your child you are getting them a TV for Christmas (wasn't a TV but just as expensive and not that her daughter asked for what she was going to get her either, BPDgf just had an impulse to keep telling her daughter what she was going to get her) but on Christmas morning, there was no TV, instead your only gift is a TV remote with the promise of a TV when you have some money because things have been difficult financially. But at the same time showing off the new leather dining chairs and dining table, the new coffee table, the new TV stand that you bought yourself. That's exactly how Christmas Day went down. Daughter was upset because it's exactly the same thing every single year.

I know I enabled a lot of that behaviour and honestly, I would have bought her daughters gift myself rather than see her upset but I had to let her do that herself. I covered her bills so she would have enough and she still made a mess of things financially. I made sure she wasn't going to let other daughter down last month but I'm not going to do it again next month. I don't have it in me so I have to prepare for the backlash because I know it will also be coming my way.

[Grey Kitty]

It's the same pattern over and over again but the difference now is that I see it, so I know what is coming over the next month and the backlash that will also come when I say not this time. Am I prepared? Not in the slightest but since I know what's coming I have some time to prepare.

She's got a history of successfully rolling straight through this boundary of yours. She's feeling very entitled to this sort of rescue on your part. So yes indeed, you will need to batten down the hatches and prepare for a big storm! You know this.

If I get the dates right, this will hit toward the end of January, so you should have at least a week to get ready, and perhaps even practice some of the tools you will need ahead on smaller issues.

You aren't seeing her face-to-face or living with her today. That means that whatever she throws at you will come by phone, text, or email. Which brings me back here:

Grey Kitty - Not answering is not an issue for me but hearing the phone ring causes a level of anxiety, same with a text coming through. hence why when I've mentioned NC, it's not been as a "punishment" but as a way for me to control my own feelings of anxiety. I've already discussed the calling back when I can with her but it doesn't change anything and what you said about me telling her I won't call back and ignoring them is what I thought I had been doing.

If you are feeling hurt, anxious, and upset, then your boundaries are not working. We're here to help you figure it out. Before I suggest a more detailed plan, would you elaborate a bit more on two things?

1. What sort of hurtful things do you expect her to say in these exchanges?

2. What aspects of this interaction cause you anxiety that you need to protect yourself from?

[Notwendy]

If hearing the phone ring and seeing text messages makes you anxious- what can you do to keep your anxiety down?

One suggestion would be to turn off your phone for a period of time ( you decide) and then check it when you wish so that for at least a while you are not disturbed by messages.

Remember, a boundary is what you do to protect yourself. You can't stop her from calling. You can turn off your phone.

[patientandclear]

Ripped, as usual, I'm going to tell you what I think, hoping it doesn't feel too challenging.

First, as to infidelity and r/ship status: I'd sum up the current situation as -- she has no accountability to you, as she has done things you generally feel would preclude you resuming a r/ship, and yet you seem to have resumed a r/ship. Right now she remains a central if not the central figure in your life and most of the time you are allowing yourself to make it all line up by accepting that what you know happened (infidelity), did not happen. (My memory is that it was serial infidelity not just this latest incident). This degree of murkiness over what you are to each other and what you each are entitled to expect from the other is very very fertile ground for additional hurt (for you both actually, though you are the one I care about).

Second, about helping her financially. I sadly have a ton of experience with this, involving my exH, not my BPDexbf. My exH is unemployed in his mid40s and seems to have no concept that he is responsible for supporting himself. To get money from his parents or me, he does what your gf does. He calls with a pathetic picture of how scared/hungry he is, manipulates threatening adverse consequences for our daughter if I don't help him out, threatens to re-home the dog I stupidly helped him get after years of pleading from our daughter ... .

The bottom line is that you can't help her be a good mom to her daughters. Only she can do that. When you bail her out on this gift stuff you do the opposite--you enable her to be a crappy mom. (This stuff really strikes a chord with me and I just feel fury on behalf of her daughter at Christmas.)

She knows the kid stuff and the bills push your buttons and that's why she doesn't prioritize them with her own money. Because she knows you will.

My 10 year old is at the point of begging her grandma and me not to give her dad any more money (I stopped 2 years ago) because it is preventing him from standing on his own two feet. Maybe he won't and will end up homeless; but for sure he won't if we keep saving him from the need to make hard responsible unsexy normal regular people choices.

For her sake and her kids' sake as well as yours, I'd urge you to let her know now, super clearly, that you can no longer be a bank. "It's bad for our r/ship and does you no favors for me to compensate for your choices."

[Ripped Heart]

Thank you all for your messages, they do make a lot of sense. Patientand Clear, yours is straight forward and not challenging at all.

Yes, there is serial infidelity. However, the information of what happened in September came from 3rd party so its a tough call in what to believe there. I know at that time she did pull right back so there is a very likely chance the information is true but cannot be validated. What I do know because of evidence is that December definitely happened.

I promise that I will not be a bank to her this time around. I did feel for her in the financial department because I've been in her shoes after I left the military but in the same respect, I got myself on track. The way I viewed it was that I earned in 1 month what she earns in a year so felt I could provide what she was asking for. What I realised is that her expectations and her belief in what her standard of living should be far exceed what I would even allow myself. Its completely unrealistic and its something she has not been able to understand in several years. We work with what we have and if I were to lose my job tomorrow I wouldn't expect the same standard of living as I have now. Instead I've been enabling her to continue by providing but that's my own rescuer/codependency issue to deal with. The only way that will be possible is to break the action thus breaking the cycle.

P&C I'm really sorry to hear about your own situation. It has given me a huge insight into what I'm doing wrong and how I'm enabling her through my own actions. I sincerely wish you all the best and know it must be difficult for you and d10 in that situation.

NotWendy, that's kind of what I've been doing, either had my phone on silent or off and check it periodically. Unfortunately it's also my work phone so does need to be on through the week but I can control how I deal with it on evenings.

Grey Kitty, I've been accused of being useless when I've not helped her out in the past. Told I do nothing for her, get sarcastic comments, told that her life is worthless and she should just end it. Occasionally some name calling or that I'm a waste of space.

The anxiety comes from not knowing which one of her is going to be on the phone. The night before last was about looking in to the TV for her. Told her it was late and I would look through the day. Kept my word and sent her a text with what I found, only to get a sarcastic response back. Basically, the price she was telling me the other night sounded too good to be true. I wondered if it was legitimate or could be knock off goods. She wanted me to find out for her so I did. Almost certain its stolen goods so responded and told her that. What I got back was "Could have told you that, not what I asked for, but hey nothing new there" I think what she wanted was for me to say I would buy it rather than look in to it.

I also think she is still angry because I went out tonight so unsure which person I will be greeted with tomorrow.

[Grey Kitty]

NotWendy, that's kind of what I've been doing, either had my phone on silent or off and check it periodically. Unfortunately it's also my work phone so does need to be on through the week but I can control how I deal with it on evenings.

If you are getting too many calls (or texts) from her, you could block her.

A less severe version would be to make a special ringtone for her. Silence. (Record 5 seconds of silence to make the ringtone!) When you want to mute her, set that ringtone for her. You could set it so her texts use that sound too.

Grey Kitty, I've been accused of being useless when I've not helped her out in the past. Told I do nothing for her, get sarcastic comments, told that her life is worthless and she should just end it. Occasionally some name calling or that I'm a waste of space.

The anxiety comes from not knowing which one of her is going to be on the phone.

When I figure out what I'm afraid of, I can better deal with it.

In this case... .if you realize that you can hang up and protect yourself from the abusive version of her, that may well cure your anxiety.

When she starts saying this sort of thing to you, how long do you stay on the phone and listen to her? Do you stay on the phone until she winds down?

[Ripped Heart]

When I figure out what I'm afraid of, I can better deal with it.

In this case... .if you realize that you can hang up and protect yourself from the abusive version of her, that may well cure your anxiety.

When she starts saying this sort of thing to you, how long do you stay on the phone and listen to her? Do you stay on the phone until she winds down?

I did start blocking her number and then unblocking when I was ready to deal with anything that came through. Though others pointed out that was perhaps not the best way to deal with the situation as then I was controlling the situation and not giving her the opportunity to communicate back. The issue I have on my phone is that it sends me a message to tell me I have a blocked text or call and as I only have number blocked, it was the same as not blocking her. I will have a look at your suggestion of whether I can just silence her calls when I need to take a step back.

As for how long I stay on the phone, I usually listen until things calm down but then that leaves me feeling frustrated because when I've addressed this before it usually starts back up again. So now I just listen until its all out of her system and not interrupt or defend my corner.

This is yet another area I have difficulty understanding from something formflier mentioned. If I was to hang up or tell her that behaviour hurts my feelings, is that not invalidating her feelings? However, if I stay on and say nothing, that encroaches my boundary but at the same time justifies her feelings at that moment. That's what I can't get my head around is the beat approach to this kind of situation. I have JADEd before and that's made things worse so I know that's not the solution.

[Grey Kitty]

As for how long I stay on the phone, I usually listen until things calm down but then that leaves me feeling frustrated because when I've addressed this before it usually starts back up again. So now I just listen until its all out of her system and not interrupt or defend my corner.

My recommendation is to have a firm and consistent boundary of not listening to that stuff. Here would be my script:

Her: "You are useless... .(etc.)"

You: "I won't listen to that from you." (If you use the phrase verbal abuse with her, you can call it that.)

If the next statement is abuse, say "Goodbye" and hang up.

If she calls back one time, you might answer... .and see if she jumps back into it or not.

If she starts back up, say "goodbye" and hang up.

If she calls back a second time immediately, I would stop taking calls--Don't answer until your phone has been quiet for at least 15-20 minutes. (The adrenalin reaction takes that long to fade; consider that the minimum time to calm down.)

This is yet another area I have difficulty understanding from something formflier mentioned. If I was to hang up or tell her that behaviour hurts my feelings, is that not invalidating her feelings?

Using a boundary to protect yourself takes priority over not invalidating her. When you are getting off the phone to get away from the tirade, you don't need to tell her how you are feeling or why this isn't acceptable to you.

You described the anxiety of not knowing which version of her you will get. When you have the 'good' version of her, you won't be criticized like that, and can try harder not to invalidate her, and to validate her.

[formflier]

Using a boundary to protect yourself takes priority over not invalidating her. When you are getting off the phone to get away from the tirade, you don't need to tell her how you are feeling or why this isn't acceptable to you.

So... .if you are really interested in using tools when you exit this conversation... .you may want to try to say... "I will call you back in 10 minutes.  Hopefully we can talk properly then"

That can take up a lot of air time... she may try to interrupt... .

If interrupting is an issue... GKs approach is best. 

But... .I'll reiterate the point... .a boundary is not for the other person.  A boundary is for you... .to protect you... .

If others get mad... .get sad... .get happy... .it doesn't matter.  You protected yourself and your values.  Let the chips fall where they may...