Working on our marriage

[Grey Kitty]

[Background: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240612.0;all and topics cited there.]

This also follows my discussion here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240815.0;all

I think a big answer to my question about why I didn't believe my wife fits right in with this discussion of grieving a relationship:

It is a loss.  A major loss (what you dreamed a relationship would be, intertwined with your own future going forward).  I went through the stages of grief:  Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance.

I've heard that those steps are not always linear. I think I was at some denial or bargaining phases there... .and hitting depression during that thread.

I'm getting some acceptance. I've also still got some hope for progress.

We've also got a schedule/time limit on initial work saving our marriage--My wife shared that her place to stay is up at the end of February, and then has to go someplace else... .not yet decided. If we aren't coming back together by then, I think we may well fly apart more rapidly. Since these decisions have some leadtime, the real (but fuzzier) deadline is mid-February. This suites me pretty well--If I wait much longer, I'll be sacrificing other things in my life for a marriage that my wife doesn't seem committed to.



Update: Yesterday my wife and I planned for her to drive down, and we would go pick up an audio CD of homework from our MC, plus I'd do some shopping (access to her car helps me there), and we'd plan on cooking a meal together and then watching a movie, and she would (most likely) drive back home for the night, about an hour. I was going to work boat projects till ~3pm when she arrived. That was the only part that went as planned.

She hit anxiety and was having trouble getting going, and hit more on the drive down. When she arrived, she pretty much needed to curl up in a blanket fort after a hello and a hug. So I did the errands on my own, and dinner was downgraded to a frozen pizza since I wasn't feeling motivated to cook something elaborate on my own. The movie didn't happen. And she ended up not having the energy to drive back; we had lots of discussions both last night and for a bit this morning as well. The conversations had some really interesting turns:

The Trigger: She mentioned some changes to her plans to fly away for a week to help a friend through some medical stuff. Turns out that the docs and insurance company got in a pissing match and he's not going to get the surgery afterall. But my wife is still visiting and driving his car back. I was half-distracted (putting groceries away), and said something fairly invalidating. She shut down. Got my full attention. It took quite a while, and a few tears on her part, but we did recover.

This was triggering because it made her feel the way she's felt "50,000" times before, where she feels she's sacrificed herself for me, etc.

This moment really opened us both up to some wonderful discussions that wouldn't have happened... .throughout the rest of this visit!.

Real Progress: She acknowledged that this really is her issue that she needs to deal with. That she feels controlled and judged... .Not that my behavior is blameless, but that she's participating, and has her own stuff to work on. Even that she has to do her own work to be able to make our marriage work.

Edge of Hope: One of the most interesting things she said was to acknowledge that there is a whole line of guys who are interested in her. And to say clearly that I'm at the front of the line. That she wants me more than any of them. I was in a listening/validating mode here, more than anything, so I didn't bring up how I felt about one particular guy in that line... .(grrrr)... .I did say that I believed her statement, and I didn't *FEEL* like I was at the front of the line with her, or didn't feel valued, or something along those lines. I played that one softly. (I'm sure she knows what I was talking about)

I am being strategic here--Choosing to validate her as much as I can, and really trying to be interested in how she's feeling. (And not 100% there, nor do I think I should be!)

Hard work ahead: She was pretty open about her fears that she can't make things work with me. One thing she shared was that she always believed there were two things that no marriage could survive: Abuse and Infidelity. And she's done them both.

At the end of 2011, she acknowledged that she was behaving abusively toward me, and we started working on it. (I found this forum in January 2012!) I was able to enforce boundaries, and she (eventually!) stopped trying to use abusive behavior.

Curiously, she's FEELING abused now. ('Tho she did acknowledge that I wasn't behaving abusively) And she's expressed a lot of fear that she doesn't have the strength I had to deal with those feelings/issues in our relationship.

The most hopeful part is that both of us are working on our own issues separately right now.

We've had a lot less luck dealing with the second issue successfully. We may not have compatible values around that one. However... .I do believe she's using that as a way to "bust out" of how she feels trapped with me. Her behavior may not really be representing her values.

I expect more of my issue here will come up in our next MC appointment tomorrow.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[jedimaster]

   Glad to hear some positive things happening.  Here's hoping it's the beginning of many more.

Your w is SOO much more self-aware than mine.  (As in, any self-awareness is more than mine.) Not sure if she will ever get to the point of acknowledging there is anything going on with her.  She's been exceptionally well-regulated the last couple of days, but I have learned the hard truth not to put much stock in good days except to enjoy the peace.  Today her world is a happy one; tomorrow who knows.

Anyway, congrats to you on some much needed and deserved progress! 

[MissyM]

And to say clearly that I'm at the front of the line. That she wants me more than any of them. I was in a listening/validating mode here, more than anything, so I didn't bring up how I felt about one particular guy in that line... .(grrrr)... .I did say that I believed her statement, and I didn't *FEEL* like I was at the front of the line with her, or didn't feel valued, or something along those lines. I played that one softly. (I'm sure she knows what I was talking about)

Wow, you are much tougher than I am.  That would have been a fight.  I am not going to compete for my husband's love and affection.  I think I told him that if he thought he could do better, good luck!  Actually, when he came back into recovery and our marriage full on, he told me there wasn't anyone even close to me and he would never be able to do better.  Not that what I said was healthy, just amazed you could hold it together with that statement.

[Grey Kitty]

Wow, you are much tougher than I am.  That would have been a fight.  I am not going to compete for my husband's love and affection.  I think I told him that if he thought he could do better, good luck!  Actually, when he came back into recovery and our marriage full on, he told me there wasn't anyone even close to me and he would never be able to do better.  Not that what I said was healthy, just amazed you could hold it together with that statement.

Maybe I'm tougher. Maybe I'm weaker. Dunno. I do know my history and standards are different.

I'm also trying to choose my battles, and save that one for in front of the MC.

I may have left out some context there. Most of the guys in "line" are just being flirted with. My wife isn't interested in anything more than friendship, and possibly flirting with most of them. I have considered the flirting to be 'harmless' and haven't made an issue of it. Anything beyond that is significant to me.

I do have to say one thing for sure... .stories like yours and VOC's give some real context to the pattern of behavior. Especially the addictive/compulsive nature of it. I'm not sure what is going on with my wife... .or what kind of line I'm going to draw to protect myself from further cheating.

I am sure that in order for me to feel safe with her, she needs to be doing something significant to address the pattern and whatever drives it, not just this one guy.

[vortex of confusion]

I am sure that in order for me to feel safe with her, she needs to be doing something significant to address the pattern and whatever drives it, not just this one guy.

The hard part is getting them to see the overall pattern. Sometimes, it feels like I am beating my head against a brick wall because he isn't able to connect the dots and see how everything adds up.

I tried to have that discussion with my husband this evening regarding his ads. I am not opposed to him having platonic female friends. I am not even opposed to him having a friend that is more than platonic. What I am opposed to is the repeated pattern of feeling like I am being completely disregarded. I feel like I could draw a line in the sand over the ad issue but I honestly don't think that it will be very comforting to me because it is ONE thing. It would help a little if he made the choice not to do it without pressure from me but I honestly don't think it will help the overall situation.

I am trying to accept the fact that he lacks impulse control. For me, that is one of the underlying issues that contributes to the lack of trust that I have for him. I mix his lack of impulse control with his naivete and see it as a recipe for disaster.

It sounds like your wife is being pretty naive to think that she can be "just" friends with this guy. From what you have said, it sounds like the guy will make a move the first chance he gets and your wife likely won't be able to say no. To me, that is one of the biggest impediments to trying to have a poly relationship with somebody that with BPD. Mixing lack of impulse control, poor judgment, and naivete is not a recipe to build trust and be confident that your partner isn't going to send you to the back of the line whenever it tickles his/her fancy.

[MissyM]

GK, sounds like you are handling this pretty well.  Just don't fall into the "pick me" dance when she throws out that there are other men waiting.  It is an implied threat, either give me what I am wanting (shower me with love and attention) or I will pick someone else.  Since the huge need for attention is a black hole and about their own damage, it just never works.  I am not saying to ignore what she is saying, just  not to take it all as the gospel of truth.  When she says you aren't romantic or loving enough, there may be a kernel of truth but that isn't why she chose to cheat.  Hopefully the MC can help with this.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm not wanting to play "pick me" over this. My concern isn't whether she will pick me or not. My concern is that she isn't showing concern for my feelings here.

I am aware that I could do more to make her feel desired, romanced, and loved. (Working on the different love language type of issue) I'll try to do more of that, but not in reaction to this issue.

I am thinking that it may give me an opening to bring up at MC, at least shining daylight onto the issue, or perhaps I can bring it out as the sort of validation that MaybeSo mentioned in another topic

"You have a need for attention from all these guys who are 'lining up' interested in you."

That is her pattern. I'm seeing it very clearly. What she DOES when one of the guys shows clear interest in her, and in taking things beyond the flirting level isn't so consistent. (Perhaps she's less compulsive/addicted at this level? Dunno... .and not MY problem! It is squarely her issue!)

[vortex of confusion]

My concern is that she isn't showing concern for my feelings here.

This question has probably been asked before. I have that same problem and I am trying to figure out "What will him showing concern for my feelings look like?" At what point will I feel like I am being taken into consideration? I am trying to look at specific things like him following through on what he says he is going to do. I am not sure if even that will help at this point. For me, it seems like I can give him all sorts of specific things to do or tell him what I want and there is still going to be a bit of a problem due to his inability to connect the dots. I find myself thinking "On what planet is this okay."

I am thinking that it may give me an opening to bring up at MC, at least shining daylight onto the issue, or perhaps I can bring it out as the sort of validation that MaybeSo mentioned in another topic

"You have a need for attention from all these guys who are 'lining up' interested in you."

It is soo hard to validate stuff like that. I have been trying to do the validating and trying to figure out for myself "Why does this bother me?" and I keep coming back to "Who the heck wouldn't be bothered by a spouse that is unpredictable. Harmless flirting is fine but I am not convinced that it is harmless flirting because HE has no boundaries." Ah, I wonder if that is part of the problem. It is hard to trust somebody that has no discernible or predictable boundaries.

How do you keep this focused on you without going back to the "she is doing this"? That is an area where I struggle. I am trying to stay focused on what I want and need but I keep finding myself going back to looking at what he is doing.

[Bloomer]

I am so glad to hear there has been some forward momentum for you. Being stuck in the mud is really frustrating.

Where will you need to be with your wife by mid-February to decide to stay or go?

How many days a week are you going to MC? Would it be possible if it is just one day a week to do two?

I hope things continue to improve. Good job coming back down and validating when you felt upset. That is a true accomplishment.

 Bloomer

[Grey Kitty]

We just got back from our second MC appointment. I think he's pretty impressed with the self-awareness we both have, and how clearly we understand the issues. His latest instruction was to spent a couple short ~1/2 hour times a week together discussing the homework (Audio CD entitled Holding On to Yourself in Relationships), and see him again in three weeks.

Highlights... .

My wife got anxious again when she was getting ready to drive down and see me for this MC appointment. Not quite as bad as last time, but still noticeable. (Actually I don't know how bad it really is--she may need to crash to take care of herself upon returning home, but she was able to drive back after the MC appointment.)

My wife pretty much acknowledged that she's been stuck in a pattern where she presents her choices to me, I shoot down 90% of them, and she doesn't have to prioritize because I've already done that for her. (I've admitted that I get out of making my own choices too this way)

She's afraid she can't make her own choices because of her own fear of my reaction, or that she can't take the rejection from me.

I did at one point try to clarify that what she is speaking about doesn't sound in any way actionable on my part. Neither she nor the MC really argued with me.

I spoke my truth about being betrayed a couple times; The MC heard my message loud and clear, and had got it last week. (I didn't have a chance/reason to bring up the pattern of my wife needing male attention... .Upon reflection, I'm not sure she can control her flirting, but I do believe she can control whether she takes it up to the next level or not... .foreshadowing of my last statement here.)

My wife had mentioned the idea of a separation for a while (~year) to me. She brought it up in T again. I said I wasn't quite sure what it meant since we were already living apart.

I said that I was afraid it meant that she was a "free agent" as in able to have any r/s she wanted to. And that I didn't think I could participate in relationships that way, or didn't want to. Also that I would probably be 'waiting' for her.

The best progress was that my wife said she wasn't committed to our relationship.

This is good because it is how she's been acting for a while now, and getting it out on the table feels better. We both know that as of today I'm the only one committed to our marriage. I also clearly stated that the choice is hers.

Tough to accept... .but I'd already accepted that her actions matched that, and I believed her actions much more than I believed anything she said in other directions.

[MissyM]

This is good because it is how she's been acting for a while now, and getting it out on the table feels better. We both know that as of today I'm the only one committed to our marriage. I also clearly stated that the choice is hers.

Tough to accept... .but I'd already accepted that her actions matched that, and I believed her actions much more than I believed anything she said in other directions.

That sounds emotional. 

[Crumbling]

    It must have been so hard to hear that.     Are you really okay?  There is a bit of validation there for you, tho, because she gave confirmation of what you have been sensing all along. 

What was the T's reaction to her admittance that she is not committed to the r/s?

You are strong, Grey Kitty, don't deny yourself that.  You're username here suits you so well, the kitty part anyway, because you seem to be like the quiet cat sitting patiently, learning, monitoring, observing, evaluating... .all very good practices and something a lot of us still struggle with.

[Grey Kitty]

Honestly, it felt good to hear that coming from her mouth. In an emperor-has-no-clothes kind of way.

Her actions had already shown me that, very clearly.

She has been expressing doubts about coming back to our marriage in most of our heart-to-heart conversations.

I even had the captain of Team Grey Kitty tell me a while ago that I was the only one still in my marriage.

I was finding it impossible not to believe it.

So hearing her acknowledge it is better.

And the other good news is that she's very aware that she has to choose whether to commit or not... .and that her choice will matter--I'm not going to stay as the only person committed to our marriage much longer.

I'm in a place of acceptance about it. At least today!

[MissyM]

I'm in a place of acceptance about it. At least today!

Hey, that is saying a lot!  For today is all we have. 

[formflier]

 

GK,

Hang in there man... .you have heard some tough words.  You seem to be holding up well.

What's up with the three week timeline to come back... .if you are sort of looking at mid feb as a time to decide?

Also... what's up with her having to leave end of Feb... .what options are there for her to stay and work on things?

Seems like a false timeline...

Again... hang in there !  

[Grey Kitty]

@FF: End of Feb is real. She is renting somebody's guest room. The owner will have guests in March, making it unavailable. She is already embedded in the community there though. If she wanted to stick around longer, I have no doubt she could find other living quarters. (Where she wants to live next is a whole 'nuther thing.)

Besides... .it suits ME very well in two ways:

1. I'm hoping to have my boat in the water in February. I won't be tied quite as hard to here.

2. I am tired of spending my life waiting for her to decide what she wants to do, and want to move forward with my life. Pushing her to either "___ or get off the pot" is better than me being in limbo.

... .and the three week thing... .that was the MC's schedule to give us time to work on ourselves. We didn't mention our deadline to him at the time. I kinda figure that we will be deciding around Valentine's Day based on the deadline and allowing some time to plan ahead for March.

Update: Had a nice chat with her just now... .cut short by an incoming call on her end. Some clarification:

She told me that when she says she isn't committed to our marriage, she means more that she is feeling very confused and leaning away from the marriage, somewhat to resolve the confusion. I pushed for clarification, and she confirmed that she also is not committed to leaving our marriage.

This is progress. Also the homework assigned to us by the MC is really good--I listened to the audio (one hour) and was impressed. I think it resembles the sort of work I've been doing... .and I think the MC picked it because it is exactly what my wife needs to do to find some clarity about this situation.

I truly hope she finds clarity and peace, and makes a choice. If she chooses to end our marriage I'm OK with that. It will be a whole lot better than being "The only person in our marriage" which is what a friend told me my role was a while ago.

I also think that if she does the work on herself, she is pretty likely to decide that she can commit to our marriage, and we can make things work.

[formflier]

 

So... .  in March you could have

1.  Boat in water

2.  Clarity on future direction of your r/s

March looks pretty good from where I sit!

Is that how you are looking at it?

[vortex of confusion]

She told me that when she says she isn't committed to our marriage, she means more that she is feeling very confused and leaning away from the marriage, somewhat to resolve the confusion. I pushed for clarification, and she confirmed that she also is not committed to leaving our marriage.

Sounds like she doesn't want to do the work of keeping you but doesn't want to let you go either. At least that is how I feel about things with my husband. He won't do the work involved in keeping me but he doesn't want to let me go either. Having a deadline to work with probably feels pretty good after being in limbo for so long. I know I am getting frustrated with not having any sort of end in sight.

I truly hope she finds clarity and peace, and makes a choice. If she chooses to end our marriage I'm OK with that. It will be a whole lot better than being "The only person in our marriage" which is what a friend told me my role was a while ago.

Don't forget that you also have the power to make the choice to end the marriage!  I saw red flags when I read the above statement. I am thinking of my own situation and how I seriously doubt that my husband is capable of making the choice to end the marriage. I feel like he is going to string things out as long as he can and even when he does make a decision he will likely flip flop. I guess what I am trying to say is, "Hang in there cause it is likely to be a long ride no matter how things go."

I also think that if she does the work on herself, she is pretty likely to decide that she can commit to our marriage, and we can make things work.

And if she doesn't. . .

I know you are feeling hopeful and that is a good thing. I know that I have had those feelings of hope where I think "If he does x, y, z, then we can make things work." It will be good for a while and then something will happen and then I find myself right back where I was before. I know you know this and have been through it. It is a reminder for myself as much as for you. 

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, I do have the choice to stay in my marriage or leave it.

And yes, I have my doubts that my wife will chose to leave it all the way. She has chosen to act in ways that aren't committed to the marriage, and is taking vague half-steps forward and back on that.

I'm choosing to work on myself and build a life for myself that I will thrive in, married or single.

I'm choosing to give my wife some more time (three~five weeks) to come back.

If at the end of February I'm STILL choosing to wait for her without significant progress on her part, results, not just processing, please give me a good kick in the pants and a reminder that I said this.

[MissyM]

I'm choosing to give my wife some more time (three~five weeks) to come back.

If at the end of February I'm STILL choosing to wait for her without significant progress on her part, results, not just processing, please give me a good kick in the pants and a reminder that I said this.

Great plan!  I felt a lot of relief when I decided how long I was willing to give it.  I didn't even tell my husband but things resolved enough within that time that I was willing to stay, he became committed to the relationship even though we weren't nearly in the space I wanted.

I know I am getting frustrated with not having any sort of end in sight.

I would suggest looking at how GK is handling it, setting a goal (improve marriage or end it), deciding a course of action (including work on self) and setting a time limit.  All things within your power.

[Grey Kitty]

I just had a moment. Tomorrow I'll be taking my wife to the airport. We will be meeting ahead of that to discuss MC homework. I texted "Wazzup? and when will you be here tomorrow?" or some such. It is a seriously RAINY day, so I'm doing no boat work. I could be doing planning inside, but I'm not, and I admit it. It has been a quiet and lazy day for me.

She called right away, and told me about some business/tax stuff she was working out. After she told me a bit, I started telling her some of the things I thought... .even though I had already clarified that this didn't involve any joint filings, only her stuff. Eventually we made plans for tomorrow.

However in between, she hit her common emotionally shut down place, and said something again about not being able to take this anymore. Honestly, I can't remember exactly what she said, or all the tone of it--I was a little too involved in my own feelings about it. ("Oh no, I just set her off again... ."

I felt bad about saying something that triggered her like that. Felt that I wasn't using the right tools, I wasn't aware enough of my role in the conversation, I was letting myself slip into something invalidating, instead of being validating, etc.

About five or ten minutes later I had my moment.

Maybe our marriage won't work out, due to this kind of conflict.

Oh! Maybe the problem isn't that I'm too invalidating.

Maybe the problem is that my wife IS too hypersensitive to me, because she is too enmeshed with me, and she cannot get around/through this.

Maybe I'm worth having a relationship with somebody I can relax around?

Maybe I'll be happier being in a relationship with somebody more emotionally aware who will handle my little slip-ups better than my wife does, or possibly not even mind?

At first I called it a moment of self-doubt. Then I wondered if it was a moment of clarity? Or a moment of relationship doubt? I dunno. Perhaps a moment of acceptance?

Whatever this moment was, I'm not changing my game plan based on it yet. I'm still working on myself, and still giving my wife some time to work on herself.

[vortex of confusion]

Maybe our marriage won't work out, due to this kind of conflict.

Oh! Maybe the problem isn't that I'm too invalidating.

Maybe the problem is that my wife IS too hypersensitive to me, because she is too enmeshed with me, and she cannot get around/through this.

Maybe I'm worth having a relationship with somebody I can relax around?

Maybe I'll be happier being in a relationship with somebody more emotionally aware who will handle my little slip-ups better than my wife does, or possibly not even mind?

Get out of my head!  I am back to a place where I want out and I want out NOW!

I have recently had all of those same thoughts at different times. I feel flakier than a box of corn flakes. I am still trying to articulate a game plan that is based on what I can realistically do and then stick with it for the most part.

[formflier]

 

Has there been any talk at MC about what issues you are each working on...

Here is the thing... .if you are open and "own" working on being validating... .

And she is open and working on being less sensitive... .

You would think that you would meet in the middle... .or somewhere acceptable.

Hey... .Grey... .was meaning to ask earlier...

Can you  tell us about when you became aware of wife's abusive behavior... and how you worked through it... .?

One reason I ask... .is that I'm thinking that was probably harder... .than "emotional sensitivity"... or whatever she is calling this now.

I'm also interested in hearing it... .because it might be useful to me... .to try and squeeze the last bit of that out of my r/s.

Thanks... .

[Moselle]

GK,

Sorry you're going through such an agonising time. I'm glad you have something - your boat to distract you.

It sounds like you are making real progress towards a happier time, regardless of the outcome of the deadline.

I can relate to your moment of acceptance when she said she wasn't committed. I also believe that is a positive thing. Mine has said similar things. And alot worse LOL. It's almost therapeutic to hear the truth after all the FOG.  

Here's my understanding of it. In that moment when they have the pain it's easier to say they're not committed. Then when they calm down they become less sure. The words "I hate you, don't leave me" are probably the truth, certainly for my W.  Is there love as we understand it or even crave it?  I don't think  so. It is love the way they understand it. I think it is about fulfilling their needs and not giving alot in return.

Is this acceptable?  Only we can answer that

[jedimaster]

Maybe I'm worth having a relationship with somebody I can relax around?

Maybe I'll be happier being in a relationship with somebody more emotionally aware who will handle my little slip-ups better than my wife does, or possibly not even mind?

These are the same questions I have asked myself.

I'm pretty sure the answers (for me anyway) are "Yes, even if the somebody is just me!"

[Grey Kitty]

Can you  tell us about when you became aware of wife's abusive behavior... and how you worked through it... .?

Thanks for asking. I just dug through some of my old diaries and made a timeline of sorts. Speed of events is interesting.

October-November 2011, My wife and I embarked upon some non-traditional relationships involving another couple. My wife did NOT have the emotional health to do this well. She got VERY abusive toward me at this time. It was really starting to tear me apart. I was getting support from a few friends at the time.

Nov-14 -- I wrote about being afraid of her in my diary

Dec-02 -- I was trying to address this, 'tho I hadn't used the word abuse. One of my supporters said almost casually in an email “You do know that it is completely unacceptable to verbally abuse your spouse?”

Dec-06 -- My wife was looking for resources like counseling for us. Found one aimed at helping couples recover from abuse. Read the description and realized that she was the abusive one. A quote from me that day: “Did you just admit that you were verbally abusing me?”

Jan-02 -- A friend of a friend heard a description of Margaret, and thought it sounded like BPD. I heard this from her before she heard it from me.

Jan-06 -- My first post here. Very soon after I started enforcing boundaries against verbal abuse.

Pretty much I was a harda$$ on the boundaries, and they worked and protected me.

Months later, she stopped being verbally abusive to me, when she had a personal breakthrough of her own. Still didn't go back to that.

[formflier]

 

Was there abusive behavior before then?  before the start of those non traditional r/s

[Grey Kitty]

Abusive behavior goes back to the beginning of our relationship. Mostly it came up when my wife was depressed (She would have periods of a week or two, averaging once or twice a year), had PMS... .or when we had a big conflict that we couldn't resolve.

That was a period with a LOT of conflict and drama. I learned a lot of hard lessons, and I learned them well.

One other hard line I drew was easier because my wife had acknowledged the verbal abuse.

"Abuse is fundamentally about control. Until the abuse is GONE, I refuse to discuss my mental health, or what issues I 'need' to work on with you. Not that I won't address them--that I won't discuss them with you. Because that would be handing control over to you, and that is exactly what we are trying to change in stopping the abuse. In addition, you may not call upon me to do ANYTHING as a condition for you stopping abuse for the same reason."

FF, I hope that answers your question.  I hope reading it will help somebody. (PM me or start another topic if you want more of that story; I'm moving on here)

[Grey Kitty]

Maybe I'm worth having a relationship with somebody I can relax around?

Maybe I'll be happier being in a relationship with somebody more emotionally aware who will handle my little slip-ups better than my wife does, or possibly not even mind?

These are the same questions I have asked myself.

I'm pretty sure the answers (for me anyway) are "Yes, even if the somebody is just me!"

jedimaster, my answer is also a resounding YES! I'm already adding more friends like that to my life. I'm not yet dating, 'tho there is one woman I've got an eye on for later when I am ready 

The other part of my answer is that given the sort of progress my wife has made, I'm willing to give her time to work on this, and try to be that person.

The other thing I'm finding is that my acceptance of the situation AS IT IS really helps me find all sorts of good things. One of them is this bit of understanding my wife.

She keeps accusing me of controlling her and stifling her. She told me that she feels abused by me. (Although she acknowledges that my behavior is not actually abusive) I'm starting to believe and understand.

I'm realizing that she is very enmeshed with me. Specifically that she feels like she cannot make a decision to do something in her life without asking for my approval. Even when it is something that doesn't impact me. (She's enmeshed, and doesn't see the boundaries between us clearly, so she honestly has trouble figuring out what is "her" decision and what is "our" decision.)

When I really accept this, I can understand her feeling--if she tells me that she wants to do something... .and I say something negative, disapproving... .or even just fail to sound excited for her, she is taking that as me preventing her from doing what she wants to do.

I'm not saying it is reasonable or healthy... .I'm saying that she really feels that way. And so she does feel abused, controlled, and stifled by this.

And this understanding will help me find some compassion for her. Especially as she works on the enmeshment for herself.

[Moselle]

"Abuse is fundamentally about control. Until the abuse is GONE, I refuse to discuss my mental health, or what issues I 'need' to work on with you. Not that I won't address them--that I won't discuss them with you. Because that would be handing control over to you, and that is exactly what we are trying to change in stopping the abuse. In addition, you may not call upon me to do ANYTHING as a condition for you stopping abuse for the same reason."

FF, I hope that answers your question.  I hope reading it will help somebody.

It helps me - massively. Thank you so.much for sharing that. It helps me understand the root of what my W is doing and why.

Did you say this to her directly?  

[Grey Kitty]

Moselle, Yes, I said it directly, and more than once. And I meant it.

It was easier because she had acknowledged that she was behaving abusively. (She had escalated to physical abuse a couple times by then!)

It was also easier because she didn't try to argue about the expression "verbal abuse".

FYI, any reading about domestic violence / abuse, the control issues come up immediately. This isn't at all special to BPD... .possibly other causes for abuse aren't as easy to control with boundaries as the stuff from BPD is though. I count myself blessed to not have direct experience with any other sort of abusive r/s!

And no, she sure didn't LIKE it when I said that. But it seemed better than "My support network is not your ___ing business, neither is whether I am in therapy or not, or what I say there."

But what really mattered was I *KNEW* that I meant it and wasn't going to back down.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MissyM]

She keeps accusing me of controlling her and stifling her. She told me that she feels abused by me. (Although she acknowledges that my behavior is not actually abusive) I'm starting to believe and understand.

My dBPDh is now aware that just because he is feeling abused, that doesn't mean that is what is happening because he mixes up his past and his present.

"In addition, you may not call upon me to do ANYTHING as a condition for you stopping abuse for the same reason."

Same goes with infidelity.

[Grey Kitty]

"In addition, you may not call upon me to do ANYTHING as a condition for you stopping abuse for the same reason."

Same goes with infidelity.

My wife's position is not "I cheated because... ." or "I need you to do X so I won't cheat". I wouldn't accept that at all.

Instead her position is "I am not sure I can be committed to our r/s because of 'X'" And she's getting to a place of noticing that "X" is (90%+) about her, not me. The corollary to her position is "Since I'm not committed to you, I won't give up another r/s for you." (There is also an aspect of "I'm aware that the cheating was against my own values, and acknowledge it once in a while, but I don't have the capacity to really sit with that, and look at real consequences of that for any length of time.)

As a friend of mine would say upon occasion "Moving Right Along Now... ."



I just listened to this audiobook "Holding on to yourself in Relationships" by Allen Berger. [Side note: IT IS GOOD STUFF!] It was assigned by our MC for us to listen to... .and to talk about it for a short period like a half hour, a couple times a week. She's going to be here in ~3 hours, we will go out to lunch and have that discussion, and then I'm driving her to the airport (~45 minutes) for a trip of most of this week before she comes into the area.

So what is there in this for me? The first thing I'm noticing (and having to WORK HARD at!) is that he very clearly states that my job is to find things that *I* need to work on in this tape, and address them. Not things that my wife needs to work on from it.

This is F***ING hard. I see soo many things my wife needs to address in it.

I will probably start by telling her that I am really struggling to focus on the areas I need to work on instead of the areas she needs to work on! And that I know it is hard to do.

Much of it is about how you manage the desire to be kind, generous, and loving to your partner in a r/s, and the desire to maintain your own independence, AT THE SAME TIME.

During my marriage, I generally fell down on the side of not maintaining my independence--By not even making my own choices, often not even thinking about what *I* wanted at all, instead deciding "Yes" or "No" about whether I wanted the thing my wife said she wanted!

At times when I feel hurt and betrayed by my wife, I do a lot less of this (like after she cheated last fall!). I also back away to protect myself.

I'm trying NOT to fall back into this as I re-connect with my wife. Looking at the choices I made around Christmas, I didn't do as well as I would have liked to. Hmmm... .

Another area I am struggling with is in being the best husband I can, and providing the kind of emotional connection that will make my wife feel loved and cherished.

(Unlike the last one, I have serious doubts about how much I'll share of this with my wife during this conversation. Because sharing it will work against the goal itself!)

My wife needs more romance, flirting, being playfully pursued. (She described a fun flirty text exchange with the guy she's been texting with last night on the phone, about him wanting to take her a drive in the mountains in his convertible... .which at 3000 miles apart is just playful)

I'm trying to give her this. And I'm struggling to feel safe and secure in doing it. Partly because she is closer, so it isn't all automatically a fantasy, and follow through is possible. And partly because I'm still feeling hurt and betrayed, and feeling her lack of commitment to me... .and that can suck the energy out of it for me.

I do *know* that my values tell me to push through it and do at least some of this anyway--I do want to put my best efforts fully into my marriage right now, and that means communicating this with her.

And I *know* that this is *hard* work for me. And that doing hard work is my path to personal growth.

... .As long as I'm not sacrificing my own independence and my own feelings by doing it... .see the original description here.

Good mental health is *HARD* work, as others here have said many times. Time to put on my big boy pants and do some of it!

[formflier]

 

Are you guys supposed to be open about the things you have found to work on yourself.


It's clear you are not supposed to suggest things to the other.

[Grey Kitty]

We weren't given any particular instructions on how open to be or not be about stuff from the MC. The only instruction was to keep this sort of heavy stuff limited to a couple times a week for a half-hour, and to talk about the stuff in the audiobook.

On thinking about it, I plan to share that it is something I see the need to work on in myself, specifically mentioning the conversation we had last night.

I won't elaborate on why it is a struggle for me to achieve this, and if it comes up, I will say that I want to work on that on my own, rather than with her.

[formflier]

 

Solid...

[Grey Kitty]

Today went as planned pretty much. Had lunch with my wife, had the discussion, then dropped ehr at the airport.

She shared her piece from with me first; Most of it was about not taking things personally. She explained how she had for a long time taken much of what I'm doing on our boat personally, including that there is no good space for her here (it is our home) while I'm working on it. She now sees that it isn't something I'm doing TO her.

She had a look of serious recognition when I admitted that it was impossible to listen to it and not think of all the things my spouse could do better. But I was going to avoid mentioning them to her and try to concentrate on my own stuff.

[Grey Kitty]

I would add that she seemed touched and impressed with what I was saying.

We had a good time together. She expressed how good it feels to be living 60 miles away from me right now.

(And I was aware that I was mostly not being quite relaxed and 'easy' with her. Just a bit extra aware most of the time)

And the big issue--whether she is willing to commit to our marriage--is still up in the air. I did thank her for not telling me more about it (where she's leaning, what she's considering, etc.) because I didn't want false hope or false fear. I want to know her decision when she's sure.

[Moselle]

And the big issue--whether she is willing to commit to our marriage--is still up in the air.

What are her actions saying?

Thought Another area I am struggling with is in being the best husband I can, and providing the kind of emotional connection that will make my wife feel loved and cherished.

This is a big one. I also realise that after 14 years of control and abuse (of which I was totally unaware,  and then played an enabling role), I have lost or not developed this aspect to my behavioural repertoire.  How do I go about building a connection with someone who is so openly cruel without remorse? And how do I help her feel loved and cherished when she doesn't love and cherish herself and thus cannot accept it from someone else?

[Grey Kitty]

And the big issue--whether she is willing to commit to our marriage--is still up in the air.

What are her actions saying?

She says she's undecided and confused. Her actions match, and are inside my boundaries by a razor's edge... .

She did cut contact with the guy she cheated with. Big Plus. This was Thanksgiving. I believed she was accepting my conditions / meeting what I needed.

Around Christmas she said she'd cut contact on her terms, not mine. (She either lied, changed her mind, or was deceptive/vague about it before--I was VERY clear)

She also told me that she will see him as a friend when she happens to run into him. It won't happen for months, but I expect the opportunity to be there. NOT ACCEPTABLE to me.

But she's still not in contact with him. (Small plus)

While we're working on things in MC, I'll give her the ambiguity on what she says she will do. But I'm not happy about it. I am aware that these are words, not actions. Actions matter a lot more.

Thought Another area I am struggling with is in being the best husband I can, and providing the kind of emotional connection that will make my wife feel loved and cherished.

This is a big one. I also realise that after 14 years of control and abuse (of which I was totally unaware,  and then played an enabling role), I have lost or not developed this aspect to my behavioural repertoire.  How do I go about building a connection with someone who is so openly cruel without remorse? And how do I help her feel loved and cherished when she doesn't love and cherish herself and thus cannot accept it from someone else?

Honestly, I don't think you can.

A couple years ago, my wife made a huge breakthrough, and set aside the self-hatred and started loving herself. She could then accept that if I said or did something loving for her, it was genuine... .rather than believing that it had to be fake for some ulterior motive. (After all, she felt unlovable, and feelings = facts ... .therefore anybody who professed to love her was lying!)

I'd note that I laid the groundwork for this breakthrough--by refusing to accept verbal/emotional abuse from her. When I took that coping mechanism away from her, she had to find some new and better ones.

Without this groundwork, I wouldn't be able to even attempt being more romantic and flirtatious with my wife! (It is hard enough with her having one foot out of our marriage!)

[formflier]

How do I go about building a connection with someone who is so openly cruel without remorse? And how do I help her feel loved and cherished when she doesn't love and cherish herself and thus cannot accept it from someone else?

There is a fine line of thinking it is her... .or disorder

[formflier]

 

Moselle,

Also need to think about forgiveness.

Two people that need it... .you and her.

Her for doing it

You for letting her

I have same struggle.  Forgiveness is hard.  Somedays it's harder to forgive myself... .sometimes her.

[Grey Kitty]

One good thing in MC and some of the heavier discussions... .

That bemused look from her... .upon hearing I'm feeling like I'm being controlled or letting her control me, and ready to change that. When she seems to be realizing that the way we are enmeshed in making decisions... .which has her feeling controlled and stifled in a way that she finds unbearable... .isn't making me feel like I'm winning, or feeling good for me either.


Here's where it takes me... .the dynamic where one party is dominating/controlling and the other is submitting/being controlled is an unequal and unhealthy one... .on both sides. Somehow, we both feel like we are in the "one-down" position of this dynamic... .and the 'natural' solution, trying to get to the "one-up" side of it doesn't actually fix the problem.

Even if we agree about which of us is "one-down" and which is "one-up", it still doesn't feel good or healthy for either of us!


From my reading/thinking... .the best news is that this dynamic requires both of us to participate in it. If I decide I'm done with it, she can't play the game with me unless I participate. Same is true the other way.

[MissyM]

Here's where it takes me... .the dynamic where one party is dominating/controlling and the other is submitting/being controlled is an unequal and unhealthy one... .on both sides. Somehow, we both feel like we are in the "one-down" position of this dynamic... .and the 'natural' solution, trying to get to the "one-up" side of it doesn't actually fix the problem.

Exactly!  Trying to get to partnership with a BPD is very tricky.  My buttons get pushed with being one down and I go into self defense, which results in being one up.  The hard part of the equation is that my dBPDh always feels one down, with everyone.  As he works on that feeling, we are able to come together more and more as equals.  It still talks a huge leap of faith from me to let down my guard and the self defense of being one up.

[Grey Kitty]

Latest update. She's driving cross country, and we were texting at bedtime. She decided to call me, and we got into heavy topics; Apparently she's had time to think and fret about things.

Sometimes doing the right thing is enough to drive me nuts. At least I think it is the right thing.

She's feeling vulnerable... .she brought up some stuff that circled around for a while... .and homed in on her concern that I've put up some emotional boundaries. She asked me about it. Since she cheated, I've trusted her a lot less than I used to. (I didn't say ":)uh!" So I'm keeping a lot more to myself. (See https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270332.0 for my own concerns around this.) I acknowledged that I felt betrayed, and didn't trust her as much as I used to, and that I would need her to do things to prove to me that she is trustworthy again.

I said that I wanted her to commit to working on making herself more trustworthy and doing things to build my trust. (Not that I needed a detailed plan, but that she needed to commit to working it out and trying to do it.)

She goes a little ways, then spirals off onto all the ways she's been frustrated by me and hurt by me for 20 years. [Which was followed by another such thing; can't remember details now]

I gently point out that she asked me how I felt... .and before even acknowledging that she heard my answer, she had to turn it around and make it all about herself.

She then said something beating herself up [forgot what]

I (a little less gently, but not at all harsh) point out that this is still making it all about her, and further, it doesn't make me feel better to hear her beat herself up--I love her and that makes me feel bad to hear it, even if she says it.

[Aside: The MC had instructed us to do short targeted discussions, and avoid long processing]

Later I mention that I'm thinking about getting a Tabla and learning to play it. She mentions that there is a resource that I probably won't like to learn how to play. (Yep, the guy she cheated with plays and has an  instructor)

After I re-state that I want nothing to do with him, she asks me to consider that he has some good characteristics, and is trying to do good in the world, not evil.

I point out that I don't want to tell her what I think of him, because it is probably a lot more negative than what she thinks, and the last thing I want is to put her in the position of defending him.

Looking back at it, she was repeatedly picking things to say that would provoke me, or blow up intimacy. I don't think it was calculated, but she clearly couldn't stop herself. (There were at least three others!)

And here's the kicker. She's afraid that I don't view her as an equal (in our relationship... .in things like emotional maturity or trustworthyness).     

 Why am I trying to counter this sort of statement at the same time I'm working soo hard to be the emotionally mature one in the conversation and NOT let it spiral completely out of control despite her constantly turning it that direction?

Hmmm... .maybe I should be validating her feeling that our marriage is hopeless instead of saying that I don't see it that way when she tries to tell me why it is hopeless? 

Yes, I was on the phone an hour. And now I'm up an hour later processing it. Sigh.

[formflier]

 

Gut reaction... .I think you handled it well.

I'll think and process some too... .wondering if validating the hopeless marriage feeling is good... .

Or... .if you leave off marriage... .and just validate "hopeless"

[MissyM]

Or... .if you leave off marriage... .and just validate "hopeless"

Yes, that was the advice I was given when my dBPDh would say the marriage is hopeless.  The reality is that he was feeling hopeless and the marriage was just a vehicle to blame for his hopelessness.  The more I could remove the marriage as the target for his feelings, the more he seemed able to feel validated and acknowledge that he did actually just feel hopeless.

[Cat Familiar]

You may be on the right track here about "validating the marriage as hopeless" if your wife is anything like my husband--and I can see some similarities in your recent conversation.

In his case, if I were to do that, he'd immediately take the opposite side.

[formflier]

[ The more I could remove the marriage as the target for his feelings, the more he seemed able to feel validated and acknowledge that he did actually just feel hopeless.

Interesting... .

If this is the case with GK... .that would seem to indicate that there is something other than the marriage... .that is contributing to his wife feeling hopeless.

I had assumed it was here issue number 1 (and it may be... .)

GK... .thoughts on "what is really" contributing to hopelessness?

[formflier]

She goes a little ways, then spirals off onto all the ways she's been frustrated by me and hurt by me for 20 years. [Which was followed by another such thing; can't remember details now]

I would bring up... in MC next time... .how far back you guys are supposed to go.  I would say the past 1 year is an appropriate limit.  Point here is that nobody can stand up to a 20 year period of hurts... .especially in a troubled relationship.  Was this addressed at on in MC?

I gently point out that she asked me how I felt... .and before even acknowledging that she heard my answer, she had to turn it around and make it all about herself.

Did she acknowledge this?  How can you redirect this next time... .?  "Excuse me... .I thought you had asked about my feelings... . I wasn't aware we were done talking about those yet... "  My wife does this too... she likes to get 3 or 4 topics going at once... .and not "complete" or "understand" any of them.

 (Yep, the guy she cheated with plays and has an  instructor)

I'm thinking this was clearly a baiting tactic... . thoughts?

I point out that I don't want to tell her what I think of him, because it is probably a lot more negative than what she thinks, and the last thing I want is to put her in the position of defending him.

What did she say to this?

And here's the kicker. She's afraid that I don't view her as an equal (in our relationship... .in things like emotional maturity or trustworthyness).    

I think this would be a great place for "help me to understand... "... .followed by... ."what do you think you can do to change this?"

Did she explain why... .or just that she thinks this.

Yes, I was on the phone an hour. And now I'm up an hour later processing it. Sigh.

Do you think it was too long... or not long enought... .just right?

[Grey Kitty]

Looking back at it, it went on longer than was productive.

And looking back at it, I managed very well to not REACT to provocations in a destructive way. 

I did not manage to respond consistently in the way I believe would have been best... .with validation at a deep level... .in hindsight. 

She brought up her fears about our marriage being broken, her being broken, that I wouldn't be able to view her as an equal, that I think she is broken, etc. etc. It was almost like a parade.

Or... .if you leave off marriage... .and just validate "hopeless"

Yes, that was the advice I was given when my dBPDh would say the marriage is hopeless.  The reality is that he was feeling hopeless and the marriage was just a vehicle to blame for his hopelessness.  The more I could remove the marriage as the target for his feelings, the more he seemed able to feel validated and acknowledge that he did actually just feel hopeless.

^^^^

THIS!

I think she is feeling afraid and unworthy more than hopeless. And the closer I am to validating those feelings, or whatever she is actually feeling, the better it seems to go.

My fear of her leaving is grabbing me by the yaya's and sending me down the rabbit hole of trying to reassure her that our marriage will be OK, etc., etc... .

I'm going to try to work on seeing and confronting that fear instead... .so I can validate her feelings.



Wish me luck and peace... .she's got a long drive today, and is expecting to roll in here this evening and spend the night with me on the boat. I expect her to be a little too tired to be 100% at her best... .or possibly very anxious and unable to function at an emotionally engaged level with me. [That might be easier!]

[formflier]

Wish me luck and peace... .she's got a long drive today, and is expecting to roll in here this evening and spend the night with me on the boat. I expect her to be a little too tired to be 100% at her best... .or possibly very anxious and unable to function at an emotionally engaged level with me. [That might be easier!]

Can you have a special meal or something ready for her?  Something that says you went a bit out of your way.

Yesterday... .it was really cold here... .I followed my wife over to gas pumps... and pumped for her so she wouldn't have to be out in the cold wind.

I didn't think much of it... .boy... .she sure did.  I think she really appreciated it.

[vortex of confusion]

Can you have a special meal or something ready for her?  Something that says you went a bit out of your way.

My thoughts exactly FF!

Focusing on figuring out something sweet to surprise here with might also help distract GK from thinking too much about the heavy stuff.

[formflier]

 

I would think at this point... .special effort... .that is not especially romantic (cards and flowers)... .might be best.

I worry that overly romantic things... .could be invalidating... .

Hard to tell... .just my opinion.

[vortex of confusion]

I would think at this point... .special effort... .that is not especially romantic (cards and flowers)... .might be best.

I worry that overly romantic things... .could be invalidating... .

Hard to tell... .just my opinion.

True!

If she has been on the road all day and is tired, a foot rub or back rub accompanied by her favorite beverage (hot tea, hot chocolate, alcoholic beverage, etc.) might fit the bill. It could be something as simple as making sure that you have her favorite snack available. I wouldn't consider any of that romantic but it is thoughtful and simple.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .