Gaslighting with kids

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I was reading another post and it made me think of a conversation I had with my DD11 a week or so ago. It was a Friday and she had stayed with dad the night before for the midweek visit. Lately she just seems depressed, she is negative and sulks, get frustrated easily and is really sensitive when you joke with her.

We were all at dinner me, DH, DS, SS, DD, SD we were talking about seeing a movie the next day. DD suggested this really cute movie and pulled up the preview on the computer and we all watched and were like yeah that looks good, funny... .can't wait. Then she said oops it isn't out until May. So we were all like oh DD way to go, ah man and kind of teased her a little for getting our hopes up for a movie that isn't out yet. It was all in fun and nothing bad was said. She got super defensive and got a little snotty with one of us. I told her to take a minute in her room. 15 min later I went up to talk to her. Told her I felt like lately she has been down and sensitive to things. She broke down and started crying saying it wasn't fair, she just wants her mom and dad together. She ripped a picture she has of me, her, her dad and brother off the wall and tossed it on the ground. She then got quiet.

I validated her feelings and told her she was right, it wasn't fair that she never asked for any of this and I can only image how hard it must be for her. The convo went on for over an hour. She calmed down right after I validated how she felt and we talked about ways to minimize things for her and so on. We talked about this behavior she has taken to doing where she gets defensive and changes her story when caught in a lie or if someone questions her. She actually said to me "sometimes I don't really know, like I don't remember or don't trust my own thoughts. It was very sad to hear.

Her dad is uNP. When we were together and even now to some extent, he has a way of making you feel wrong when you know your right. Like he will say one thing then when you bring it up he will say I never said that. It is like you tend to question yourself and believe he is always right and you are crazy. He can still do this to me sometimes and I have to stop myself and say wait a minute... .

I'm sure he does this with my kids, I mean, he is who he is so his tactics to make people fall in line aren't going to change.  Like other posters have said, it can be so subtle that you really start to question your reality and get so confused. I feel like this is what is happening to my DD. I've read a lot about gaslighting but how can I help the kids with it?

[Swiggle]

I was reading another post and it made me think of a conversation I had with my DD11 a week or so ago. It was a Friday and she had stayed with dad the night before for the midweek visit. Lately she just seems depressed, she is negative and sulks, get frustrated easily and is really sensitive when you joke with her.

We were all at dinner me, DH, DS, SS, DD, SD we were talking about seeing a movie the next day. DD suggested this really cute movie and pulled up the preview on the computer and we all watched and were like yeah that looks good, funny... .can't wait. Then she said oops it isn't out until May. So we were all like oh DD way to go, ah man and kind of teased her a little for getting our hopes up for a movie that isn't out yet. It was all in fun and nothing bad was said. She got super defensive and got a little snotty with one of us. I told her to take a minute in her room. 15 min later I went up to talk to her. Told her I felt like lately she has been down and sensitive to things. She broke down and started crying saying it wasn't fair, she just wants her mom and dad together. She ripped a picture she has of me, her, her dad and brother off the wall and tossed it on the ground. She then got quiet.

I validated her feelings and told her she was right, it wasn't fair that she never asked for any of this and I can only image how hard it must be for her. The convo went on for over an hour. She calmed down right after I validated how she felt and we talked about ways to minimize things for her and so on. We talked about this behavior she has taken to doing where she gets defensive and changes her story when caught in a lie or if someone questions her. She actually said to me "sometimes I don't really know, like I don't remember or don't trust my own thoughts. It was very sad to hear.

Her dad is uNP. When we were together and even now to some extent, he has a way of making you feel wrong when you know your right. Like he will say one thing then when you bring it up he will say I never said that. It is like you tend to question yourself and believe he is always right and you are crazy. He can still do this to me sometimes and I have to stop myself and say wait a minute... .

I'm sure he does this with my kids, I mean, he is who he is so his tactics to make people fall in line aren't going to change.  Like other posters have said, it can be so subtle that you really start to question your reality and get so confused. I feel like this is what is happening to my DD. I've read a lot about gaslighting but how can I help the kids with it?

[livednlearned]

What about renting Gaslight, the 1944 movie where the term gaslighting comes from, and watching it with your D11? It's rated PG.

Then have a conversation about what was going on.

You don't even have to mention D11's dad.

[Swiggle]

that sounds like a good idea LNL... .Do you think DD would "get" it? I've never seen the movie so I can't really judge.

[livednlearned]

I haven't seen it, although I try to use movies to talk about issues with S13 that are really about his dad, and it's been pretty effective. Or he'll talk about something a friend or teacher said/did, and I'll ask him how it felt, what did he do, how did he handle it, then validate him if the behavior seemed tricky. It does seem like S13 gets upset about behaviors that are identical to what his dad did, which made things fairly straightforward. Same buttons getting pushed. Same vulnerabilities.

Your D11 could probably get the point of the movie, but might not find it very entertaining. We need a Spongebob Squarepants version 

There are probably gaslighting behaviors in Disney movies, with all those 2 dimensional villains and all.

It's a pretty complicated thing to explain. My T helped me see how my supervisor does this, and it took a while to gather enough phrases/tools to disarm the gaslighting. I used to be easy to bamboozle, is how my T phrased it. I had to learn first of all to identify when I was second-guessing myself, what that even felt like. And then to recognize different ways people gaslight. My dad has a chuckle he does when I say something he doesn't agree with, or when he wants to undermine me in conversation. So it can be as subtle as that, all the way up to what my ex would -- he would move my purse and keys and phone around and then tell me I was forgetful and scatter-brained.

[Swiggle]

I just watched the movie, oh my! My ex was more of a say one thing then deny it, or get you excited about something and say that's not what I said. Then he would say things like you heard what you wanted to hear. Really makes you question yourself, when it happens all the time.

She def wouldn't think the movie was good, it is in black and white . I wonder if she would question "why" I wanted to show her the movie?

[Nope]

When I bring up things or point things out in movies that touch on sensitive subjects about her BPD mom I try to broadly let her know that what I'm trying to get across to her is for her to know about relationships and friendships in the future in her own life. This is super important to help keep her from seeking out people to surround herself with that behave like her mother. If she learns the way bad people can trick her, and what behaviors she should not accept from others, and she brings that knowledge to her relationship with her mom, then that's great. But as she hets older and her relationships with peers evolve the lessons become very important whether they apply to a parent or not.

Frankly, I wish I'd had someone to have these kind of frank conversations with as a kid. I might have avoided a whole lot of my own bad relationships that way.