New Beginnings & Boundaries 3...

[MaroonLiquid]

This is a coninuation of the previous New Beginnings & Boundaries 2 thread found here... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=272410.0

So... .what steps can she take that would move your r/s forward... .towards reconciliation?

I realize you can't force her to take steps... .and heavy encouragement at this point might not be good either.

However.

I think that you should also think through and have a list of 4-5 things that you think are good.

If you ever see a chance to nudge in that direction... .take the opportunity.

This is "contingency planning".

1.  Our kids see us acting like a couple again, with PDA and spending time together and that's good.  Tell them we are working on our marriage and making strides toward reconciling.

2.  Start acting like a couple again (wear her wedding ring, be married on Facebook, let others know that we are spending time together, working toward reconciliation, etc) and not act like I'm some secret to people outside of our kids.

3.  Not just admit we need counseling, but actually go.

4.  Stop "kicking me to the curb" everytime things don't go her way.

5.  While in counseling, give my laptop back.

IMO... .the temperature seems to have been turned down a notch or two.

I agree here.  I've noticed that dysregulations are pretty mild in that we don't scream anymore (raise our voice at times, but nothing like it used to be), her silent treatments aren't near what they used to be in length or intensity (lasting now from a few hours to days) and we are becoming way more passionate toward one another again.  

"Missteps" seems to be fewer and further apart... .at least on your part.

Your key will be to find ways to work towards something better... .without getting disappointed or triggered by slow timing.

Thoughts?

I'm seeing my missteps now being caused by frustration and disappointment at times.  Frustration and disappointment in the sense that she knows the right thing, and still chooses the other option.  Frustration in the sense that she wants me to "pay" even though in the last 9 months, I have done the very best I can to make things better.  :)isappointment in the sense that she won't just be honest about stuff (even though I know that is typical of pwBPD).  

A couple of things I took note of the other day was regarding some things she said after the financial seminar thing.  I realize they're her bills and obviously not my problem.  But looking at it from another angle, I began to ponder some things.  She was saying how her car payment was higher on her vehicle with the interest rate she got because she didn't have the money to put down and didn't have all the "facts", possibly looking at another house when her lease is up, etc. and think she is trying to set it up for me to come back without a long drawn out thing.  After she told me about the car, house and stuff, I asked her, ":)o you realize how much better off we would be as a couple if we didn't have seperate households to pay for?"  Her response was, "Yeah, but I won't go back to the way things were."  I responded just like I always have, "I'm not asking you to, nor would I go back to that, which is why we need counseling."

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

ML,

You are most likely on the mark with her missteps and frustrations... but... ultimately we will never know because we can't read minds... .(we'll leave that up to them... .)

Give us a list of your "missteps" and what you think the reason was that you did that... .

That can really work with... .because you can tell us what you were thinking and feeling. 

This will help us make better contingency plans for the future.


2nd thing.

I see why you or others would like your first two steps or goals... .but... .they involve others participation.


3 and 5 are the best ones... .because it's just you and her (ok... you got me... .and a counselor... so three!).

4... .  I would rather you express it as what you would like her to do... .rather than what not to do.   Try to stay positive.

Can you work on 1 and 2... .and express them in a way that involves you two... .I see where you are going with how you wrote it... .but try to keep it between you two.  The byproduct may be the same.

ff

[MaroonLiquid]

ML,

You are most likely on the mark with her missteps and frustrations... but... ultimately we will never know because we can't read minds... .(we'll leave that up to them... .)

Give us a list of your "missteps" and what you think the reason was that you did that... .

That can really work with... .because you can tell us what you were thinking and feeling. 

This will help us make better contingency plans for the future.

I misstep when she is in the middle of her dysrgulation and starts blaming me.  A few days ago I even caught myself and told her to hold on so that I could calm down.  A bit later, I raised my voice because she had pushed me too far.  I was mad, felt no way out of the conversation knowing I should have let it go earlier when it was somewhat dropped.  I want my voice heard WAY too much!  It comes from my mom who HAS to be heard. 

2nd thing.

I see why you or others would like your first two steps or goals... .but... .they involve others participation.


3 and 5 are the best ones... .because it's just you and her (ok... you got me... .and a counselor... so three!).

4... .  I would rather you express it as what you would like her to do... .rather than what not to do.   Try to stay positive.

Can you work on 1 and 2... .and express them in a way that involves you two... .I see where you are going with how you wrote it... .but try to keep it between you two.  The byproduct may be the same.

ff

1. Work together towards reconciliation by making plans for that and seeking counseling.

2. Wearing our wedding rings, showing married on Facebook and not having our relationship be "secret".  (The funny thing was her posting pictures from the boat over the weekend and she never posted or mentioned who was actually driving the boat.  )

[MaroonLiquid]

ML,

You are most likely on the mark with her missteps and frustrations... but... ultimately we will never know because we can't read minds... .(we'll leave that up to them... .)

Give us a list of your "missteps" and what you think the reason was that you did that... .

That can really work with... .because you can tell us what you were thinking and feeling. 

This will help us make better contingency plans for the future.

I misstep when she is in the middle of her dysrgulation and starts blaming me.  A few days ago I even caught myself and told her to hold on so that I could calm down.  A bit later, I raised my voice because she had pushed me too far.  I was mad, felt no way out of the conversation knowing I should have let it go earlier when it was somewhat dropped.  I want my voice heard WAY too much!  It comes from my mom who HAS to be heard. 

2nd thing.

I see why you or others would like your first two steps or goals... .but... .they involve others participation.


3 and 5 are the best ones... .because it's just you and her (ok... you got me... .and a counselor... so three!).

4... .  I would rather you express it as what you would like her to do... .rather than what not to do.   Try to stay positive.

Can you work on 1 and 2... .and express them in a way that involves you two... .I see where you are going with how you wrote it... .but try to keep it between you two.  The byproduct may be the same.

ff

1. Work together towards reconciliation by making plans for that and seeking counseling.

2. Wearing our wedding rings, showing married on Facebook and not having our relationship be "secret".  (The funny thing was her posting pictures from the boat over the weekend and she never posted or mentioned who was actually driving the boat.  )

So my wife called me a few minutes ago and we were talking about our taxes.  The conversation was calm, and validated that our taxes need to be a priority.  I validated that working together will make a big difference and that we are in a much better place now to do that.  I also offered to pick up our daughter on the way to practice tonight and she said that I didn't have to nor was it my responsibility.  I told her that I know that she has a lot of deadlines, it is on my way and not a problem.  SHe said it would help her out and allow her to work.  She asked me what time I would be there and I told her.  At the end of the conversation, I asked her about having lunch this weekend at some point (she asked me Saturday night when I could take her out and I told her tonight but forgot about batting practice).  She told me she is "very busy this weekend" (cookie booths, church, etc) which seems to happen when she dysregulates on some level .  I guess it's her way of "fighting back" when I don't give in to her.  I then gave her the option of bringing lunch by her house tomorrow and she said, "No, I'm not interested in that."  I said, "Ok, no problem.  I'll see you tonight."  Back to that ridiculous stupidity.     

I saw my T yesterday and he told me that it sounds like my wife is doing much better and that we are on an uptick which is progress.  He validated how hard I've worked on myself, how much better I've been doing and that it is making a difference.  I told him we were intimate twice last week and the first time was rather "mechanical" as it usually is after a dysregulation.  He said that was normal, and asked me about the second time.  I told him it was amazing, intimate and about both of us.  He said it is obvious my wife loves me very much and her putting forth the effort to hug me when she got home last week was huge progress for her as compared to the last 9 months.  He also said that her wanting me to stay with the kids shows that she wants me a part of her and the kids life.  He validated my thoughts and feelings that I told my wife a few days ago that the bills are a symptom of the real issue.  I told him I felt they were a disguise, and what I felt they were to keep our marriage "a carrot" she could dangle and that it was unacceptable (which is what I told her).  He said that he was glad I told her that and that I'm expressing myself much better than I used to.  He did say that I was a tad off base about her reasoning for "dangling the carrot", but not by much.  He said that her bringing up the bills to "blow things up" every time was a disguise for the underlying issue.  He asked what I thought the underlying issue was and I said, "Our marriage."  He said, "No, think deeper".  I told him that I had no idea other than that.  He said, "It always comes back to her in her mind.  She knows you see a T.  She knows you are changing and all that's pretty much left is her.  She knows that dealing with "the marriage" means dealing with herself also.  Where this road leads scares her to death.  She keeps running, but runs back to you after a few days to a week because she loves you and you are safe"  I thought that was an interesting take.

[formflier]

 

Couple things.

T talk:  So... .if it really is about her (and likely is)... .what validation things can you have ready... .for when she starts saying she can't deal with her stuff... .won't... .it's too hard... .etc etc.

Please re-read the lessons on getting a loved one into therapy.  I've not read it in a while either. 

I'm not at all suggesting you start pushing this... .but it will eventually come up... .and you want to be ready.  She may still not go... .but I would hope that could be her issue... .vice you handing her an excuse because you handled something improperly.

2nd:  I didn't even think about taxes.  Are you going to file jointly with her?  It's what it sounds like?

Where will the money be deposited... .how will it be split.

Remember... .money talks are filled with triggers for you!  Not to mention her. 

Is this a point where you want to put the ball in her court... .

"I will be happy to file jointly with you in conjunction with participation in MC or we can file separately."

You have been pretty clear that you want to act like a couple... .even when it doesn't "benefit" her.  What I want to avoid is you filing jointly with her and ending up "feeling used"... .or with no benefits.

Thoughts?

[MaroonLiquid]

Couple things.

T talk:  So... .if it really is about her (and likely is)... .what validation things can you have ready... .for when she starts saying she can't deal with her stuff... .won't... .it's too hard... .etc etc.

I can validate that I will help her any way that I am able and will be there for her.  I think there is going to come a moment (and believe it already has to some degree) that it makes no sense for us to live apart.

Please re-read the lessons on getting a loved one into therapy.  I've not read it in a while either.  

I'm not at all suggesting you start pushing this... .but it will eventually come up... .and you want to be ready.  She may still not go... .but I would hope that could be her issue... .vice you handing her an excuse because you handled something improperly.

I will re-read those today.

2nd:  I didn't even think about taxes.  Are you going to file jointly with her?  It's what it sounds like?

Where will the money be deposited... .how will it be split.

Remember... .money talks are filled with triggers for you!  Not to mention her.  

Is this a point where you want to put the ball in her court... .

"I will be happy to file jointly with you in conjunction with participation in MC or we can file separately."

You have been pretty clear that you want to act like a couple... .even when it doesn't "benefit" her.  What I want to avoid is you filing jointly with her and ending up "feeling used"... .or with no benefits.

Thoughts?

Honestly, it doesn't matter how we file, we are going to owe just like we have for several years and are dealing with the IRS about.  Something we are going to have to work through together.

[formflier]

 

Hmmm... .taxes.  So... you guys are going to have to pay... .vice get money back?  I'm curious why it doesn't matter which way you file.  Normally... .married filing jointly gets a bigger tax advantage.  Do you use a CPA?

If you are talking about moving back in together... .what are the conditions under which you will do that? 

Would you move back in with her... .without any MC? 

When you reread the lessons... .how does that affect your strategy to get her into T of some sort?  What is the plan?

[KateCat]

"I will be happy to file jointly with you in conjunction with participation in MC or we can file separately."

Would there be any downside to saying exactly this? Could you use this statement and then follow up with some of those fine "help me understand" clarifications if necessary? 

[MaroonLiquid]

Hmmm... .taxes.  So... you guys are going to have to pay... .vice get money back?  I'm curious why it doesn't matter which way you file.  Normally... .married filing jointly gets a bigger tax advantage.  :)o you use a CPA?

Yes, we will have to pay.  We are in a high tax bracket with both of our incomes.

If you are talking about moving back in together... .what are the conditions under which you will do that?  

First, we would need to be actively in MC, not with the "agreement" that we will start.  I'm not trying to force her hand, but don't want to go back to the way it was (says that is what she wants also) or have her act "ok" for a while and then revert.

Second, need to act married (wearing wedding ring, making the kids aware we are working on it, etc).

Finally, would have to move into a house that is mutually agreed upon, certainly not the one she is in now.

When you reread the lessons... .how does that affect your strategy to get her into T of some sort?  What is the plan?

Just continue to reinforce that it will help "us" and our r/s to be able to have a qualified third-party mediate on major things that hinder healthy communication between us.  I really haven't forced her or tried to manipulate her into counseling for most of the 9 months.  I know it doesn't help.

Would there be any downside to saying exactly this? Could you use this statement and then follow up with some of those fine "help me understand" clarifications if necessary?  

    The problem I have with this approach is my wife sees this as a "manipulation" tactic, and she would know as she is a master at it.  Tried that late last year to horrible results.  Since I have backed off tremendously of trying to force her hand, manipulate or negotiate, things have slowly gotten better and things have worked themselves out "naturally" at times.  For instance, with the car situation, once I got over the original anger of her "taking" my car and "trading" me (gave me no choice), I let it go.  I realized I had transportation and also ascribe to the Biblical principal of "You reap what you sow".  After a few months, I got in an accident (other person's fault), totalled it and actually came out ahead and better than if my wife had been sensible in the first place and traded it in before that happened.  

    I have come to realize in the last 9 months, if my wife thinks something is important to me, it becomes "important" to her and a way for her to continue poor behavior and try and manipulate.  I just assume not give her that power and exactly why I haven't mentioned my Macbook in months.  She doesn't have the charger for it, can't use it, and can't sell it because it is locked with a code that only I know (I locked it remotely).  What has happened is she has screwed herself from her dysregulated decision over and over again during the last 9 months.  To me, that is a lesson I could never teach her and something she has to deal with on her own.

[KateCat]

Geez, this is a tough situation.

Do you have any little sneaking feeling that your wife can go on like this indefinitely? That maybe she's not nearly as uncomfortable with this general state of affairs as you are and maybe also the kids are?

[MaroonLiquid]

Geez, this is a tough situation.

Do you have any little sneaking feeling that your wife can go on like this indefinitely? That maybe she's not nearly as uncomfortable with this general state of affairs as you are and maybe also the kids are?

I believe for the first 6 months of this separation, she was definitely "comfortable" as she had a lot of things her way.  Now with almost all of the bill separated and her paying her own car note and house note, she is feeling the pinch as she told me last weekend.  She told me that she is looking at maybe a cheaper car and rent payment (may have been bluffing to get me to feel sorry for her and rescue her and believe that is part of it) which I am sure now is starting to eat her lunch.  She even agreed with me that we would be way better off financially if we were living together.  She is starting to see what all I did provide but isn't ready to admit it yet.

[formflier]

 

I'm not suggesting you use the "manipulation" tactic now (and I don't agree it is a manipulation)... .but... .you need to practice and get ready for when the opportunity comes... .my gut says it will show up.  As she takes a hard look at her choices... .financially... .I think that will force her hand.  Just my guess.

Giving someone clear choices in an effort to find a mutually agreeable compromise is not a manipulation... .you don't need to argue with her over it... .just don't believe her version.

Are you planning on filing jointly with her?  Do you use a CPA?

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm not suggesting you use the "manipulation" tactic now (and I don't agree it is a manipulation)... .but... .you need to practice and get ready for when the opportunity comes... .my gut says it will show up.  As she takes a hard look at her choices... .financially... .I think that will force her hand.  Just my guess.

Giving someone clear choices in an effort to find a mutually agreeable compromise is not a manipulation... .you don't need to argue with her over it... .just don't believe her version.

Are you planning on filing jointly with her?  Do you use a CPA?

I think it will show up too!  What do you mean by practice?  I'm not sure what we are going to do yet.  We are going to talk to a CPA. 

She texted and said our daughter was sick and wouldn't be at practice tonight.  I asked her if it would be okay if I came by and saw her after practice to check on her and my wife texted back, "No".   .  I didn't respond.  I thought about asking her, "Can you help me to understand why you don't want me to come over?" and I just figured she wouldn't respond so I let it go.  I just texted my daughter and said, "Your mom told me you wouldn't be at practice because you aren't feeling well.  I hope you feel better.  I love you."  She responded and said, "Thanks".  Kind of took it out of my wife's hands at that point.

[Grey Kitty]

Maroon, I'm thinking about your situation here... .I know you hope to reconcile with your wife, but I also know that you want to see a lot of progress on her part before you would move in, etc., and she isn't showing much interest in even starting such things.

I'm thinking that any pressure to do that on your part is going to cause problems, and not help much.

You also want to be a father to her kids. Even though you have been a father to them, you do not have much legal standing--you have very little in the way of either rights or obligations with them legally.

Your current status is a weird kind of limbo--living separately, legally married, with 98% separate finances. With other people, your wife is acting as if you don't exist in her life, or her kids life, wherever she can pull it off. Where you can pull it off, you are acting like you are still married. You are wearing a ring. She isn't.

I think this limbo status serves her pretty well. It did even better when you were still enmeshed and supporting her financially more than you are now. If you chase her, she can either run away or smack you down, which works somewhat for her. The financial realities are harder on her than on you, but she can at least blame you for some of them.



When you look at how this limbo option works for you, remember to compare it to the options available to you TODAY. A: Limbo. B: Divorce. C: Move back in with your wife exactly as she is, giving you at least the silent treatment, if not outright abuse, trying to manipulate you, trying to take advantage of you financially, and not in any kind of therapy or even acknowledging that she has a problem she needs to work on! (Besides, your wife isn't even making option C available to you!)

As a parent, this limbo status is probably your best option. If you were to file for divorce, it would upset her... .and she would withhold her kids from you more than she is now.

As a guy who wants to reconcile with her, it is probably your best option too... .and your policy of not chasing her so much seems to be working--it is letting her decide whether she wants to be with you or not on her own.

So what about taxes, especially considering how you are living... .are you seriously considering filing jointly with her? Think about it.

• Money issues are triggering for her, especially when they involve you. Almost guaranteed to trigger her.



• Either you or FF suggested involving a MC in order to do joint taxes with her... .and you can't get her into MC already!



• Your finances are already separated. You have all the info to do taxes, without talking to her.



• If you file separately, all you have to do is send her a one line email: "I'm going to file my taxes separately for 2014."

[KateCat]

She texted and said our daughter was sick and wouldn't be at practice tonight.  I asked her if it would be okay if I came by and saw her after practice to check on her and my wife texted back, "No".

This might make me think that your wife is hunkering down for a long siege of push/pull struggle. (And not so much that she's about to fold under financial pressures.)

Is there any other way you can approach the issue of your relationship with her children at this time? Would your individual counselor have any ideas?

[formflier]

I think it will show up too!  What do you mean by practice?  I'm not sure what we are going to do yet.  We are going to talk to a CPA. 

By practice... .I mean actually say the words... .maybe talk to yourself while looking in the mirror.  Make sure the words come out even and factual... .  Remember... pwBPD traits are very perceptive... .you don't want to give off any kind of "got you where I want you attitude"

You need to be truly giving her options

If you want me to do X... .I'm willing to do that under the following conditions.

I'm also ok with doing Y. 

Be ready for her to "do her thing"... .accuse... be triggered... etc etc...

CPA:

Good to think about involving professionals.  I gave up doing my own taxes years ago... .and I'm much better off for it... IMO.

So... .am I correct that you guys have discussed filing taxes jointly... .and have agreed to meet with a CPA to discuss this and possibly other options?

How does this plan for taxes work with your hopes for reconciliation?

What is different about taxes that the situation with the car?

Same question but washer dryer instead of car?

Do some risk analysis here... .let us know your thoughts on the results.  Chances that doing taxes together will end up being a positive thing?  Chances that doing taxes together will be triggering and result in either or both of you saying things that are unpleasant and unhelpful for reconciliation.

Hang in there... .

Oh yeah... .one last thought/question?

Did your relationship get better by getting rid of joint enmeshment issues over the car?  I just want to make sure I understand if that was a positive or negative move... .from your point of view.

[MaroonLiquid]

Oh yeah... .one last thought/question?

Did your relationship get better by getting rid of joint enmeshment issues over the car?  I just want to make sure I understand if that was a positive or negative move... .from your point of view.

I'm thinking on your previous questions, but to answer this one.  I definitely think getting rid of the joint enmesh meant issues over the cars has helped.  It put us on very even ground and responsible for our own car notes.  Before, she could make excuses, hold it over my head and stall to keep from getting another car because it benefitted her greatly financially to have me pay both obviously.  I truly believe she sees quite a few things differently now having a big car note that she's responsible for.  I think a major sticking point with her is I am much better at saying, "No!"

[formflier]

 

Good... .that was my understanding of the outcome of the "car thing" as well.

I'm going to give you my opinion on the patterns that I see... .please evaluate... .and see if you are seeing the same thing.

IMO... .when you have taken steps to disentagle yourself from your wife's finances... .you and she ultimately end up in a  "better place".

Yes... she usually blames and does something along those lines... .but when the impact of your "no" wears off... and she is over her dysreg... .things seem to get better.

Are you seeing the same pattern?  Same analysis? 

[MaroonLiquid]

Good... .that was my understanding of the outcome of the "car thing" as well.

I'm going to give you my opinion on the patterns that I see... .please evaluate... .and see if you are seeing the same thing.

IMO... .when you have taken steps to disentagle yourself from your wife's finances... .you and she ultimately end up in a  "better place".

Yes... she usually blames and does something along those lines... .but when the impact of your "no" wears off... and she is over her dysreg... .things seem to get better.

Are you seeing the same pattern?  Same analysis?  

That is exactly the pattern I see.  She HATES when I don't do what she wants, and that creates the silent treatment "extinction burst" thinking that I'll give in.  She is learning quicker each time (started when I didn't give her the money for the Christmas present I bought her and she wanted me to return) and starting to realize I'm not this pushover I once was.  And as you said, when that "No" wears off and she regulates her emotions, its almost like we are a couple again and we start talking about a future again... .I've said for a while that a divorce is not what she wants.  I think the big issue is she can't figure out how to entagle herself out of the web she has spun for 9 months.  Her telling me a few months ago that she doesn't want to have to explain herself to people was very telling and showed she is still worried about what people think about her and if they find out the truth.  Yet, I'm the calm one (99% of the time  , but way different than I used to be) and a comfort to her.  My T agreed.

[formflier]

 

So... .we are in agreement that the same pattern is happening... .it seems like we are seeing the same thing.

So... .why change the pattern? 

Things are getting better... .right?

[Grey Kitty]

That is exactly the pattern I see.  She HATES when I don't do what she wants, and that creates the silent treatment "extinction burst" thinking that I'll give in.  She is learning quicker each time... .

You might want to re-write your description of that pattern in your head--half of it is her ACTIONS, which you can observe, and half of it is her FEELINGS/THOUGHTS, which you are speculating on. I'm not saying that you are wrong. I'm going to propose another way of looking at it that will help you, which has all the same actions, but slightly different feelings/thoughts (the part you can't actually see)

She HATES when you don't do what she wants. She creates distance (i.e. not responding to texts/emails/phone calls, etc.) so she won't have to feel those uncomfortable feelings that are coming up.

[MaroonLiquid]

So... .we are in agreement that the same pattern is happening... .it seems like we are seeing the same thing.

So... .why change the pattern? 

Things are getting better... .right?

We are in agreement!  And yes, things are getting better, so no need to change the pattern.

She HATES when you don't do what she wants. She creates distance (i.e. not responding to texts/emails/phone calls, etc.) so she won't have to feel those uncomfortable feelings that are coming up.

That is excellent and I totally agree!

[formflier]

OK... .so you don't want to change the pattern... .but you are considering doing taxes together?


"Help me understand... ."  (sorry... couldn't resist using my line)

[MaroonLiquid]

OK... .so you don't want to change the pattern... .but you are considering doing taxes together?


"Help me understand... ."  (sorry... couldn't resist using my line)

I don't mean to sound like an idiot, but how is doing taxes changing the pattern?  Is it because it's do my it together and not staying separate?

[Grey Kitty]

Joint taxes  = getting into conversations (dysregulations?) with her about money.

Married filing separately = No discussion of money with her, besides telling her that you will file that way.

Do you really *think* you can talk with her about taxes and not have the washer/dryer come up?

[formflier]

 The pattern as I see it is that every time you separate finances you eventually get to a better place.

Discussions of together finance issues "always" send you guys to a worse place... .

I hate to use the "always" word... .but... .isn't that actually true in this case?

So... .you want to take your r/s to a better place... .the tax choice is obvious... .if you are following the pattern.

There may be other ways to look at it... .I'm all for that... .but... .the pattern seems clear

ff

[MaroonLiquid]

The pattern as I see it is that every time you separate finances you eventually get to a better place.

Discussions of together finance issues "always" send you guys to a worse place... .

I hate to use the "always" word... .but... .isn't that actually true in this case?

So... .you want to take your r/s to a better place... .the tax choice is obvious... .if you are following the pattern.

There may be other ways to look at it... .I'm all for that... .but... .the pattern seems clear

ff

Yeah, I figured that is what you meant.  A part of me fights this feeling that I've had since the beginning that the more we separate the more "final" things become.

I sent out a softball team email today (haven't communicated since Friday that our daughter wouldn't be at practice) and my wife responds that our daughter isn't showing up to practice tomorrow (again).  She posted on Facebook today about how "good her life is".   .  When she does this, this is usually the time in the cycle of her crap when she is feeling down on herself and is trying to make herself feel better and missing me.  What I also notice is that when she tries to communicate at first after her dysregulations, it's always an attempt for negative attention.  Not sure why, but just saying what I notice.  I know that the last two practices (Thursday and Friday) last week our daughter wasn't feeling well and validated that with no response from my wife (even asking if I could bring our daughter a milkshake).  A part of me doesn't want to respond because it feels like she is trying to "start something".  A part of me wants to respond and just say, "OK, thanks for letting me know."  Thoughts?

[123Phoebe]

I sent out a softball team email today (haven't communicated since Friday that our daughter wouldn't be at practice) and my wife responds that our daughter isn't showing up to practice tomorrow (again).  

A part of me doesn't want to respond because it feels like she is trying to "start something".  A part of me wants to respond and just say, "OK, thanks for letting me know."  Thoughts?

Frustrating and confusing, for sure.  In a situation like this, I'd want to keep it as simple as possible.  If any other parent responded to your softball team email, that their daughter would not be showing up to practice (again), how would you respond?

The pattern as I see it is that every time you separate finances you eventually get to a better place.

Discussions of together finance issues "always" send you guys to a worse place... .

I hate to use the "always" word... .but... .isn't that actually true in this case?

So... .you want to take your r/s to a better place... .the tax choice is obvious... .if you are following the pattern.

There may be other ways to look at it... .I'm all for that... .but... .the pattern seems clear

ff

Yeah, I figured that is what you meant.  A part of me fights this feeling that I've had since the beginning that the more we separate the more "final" things become.

And the more "real" they become, also.  Accepting things as they are, now, not how we wish they were and acting from a place of wishfulness and wistfulness.

She posted on Facebook today about how "good her life is".   .  When she does this, this is usually the time in the cycle of her crap when she is feeling down on herself and is trying to make herself feel better and missing me. What I also notice is that when she tries to communicate at first after her dysregulations, it's always an attempt for negative attention.  Not sure why, but just saying what I notice. 

Are you basing your relationship dynamics on what she posts on Facebook?  I so wish you'd step away from her FB and let yourself feel your way through this, with what's actually in front of you, not a screen(!) and not of the musings of a disordered mind and attaching to that.

I'm sorry if that's blunt. 

If I inserted myself into the rambling thoughts of my partner, I'd go mad!  We are separate people, individuals.  Thank goodness!

[MaroonLiquid]

Frustrating and confusing, for sure.  In a situation like this, I'd want to keep it as simple as possible.  If any other parent responded to your softball team email, that their daughter would not be showing up to practice (again), how would you respond?

Blunt?  Is that what you call it Pheebs?      It's alright, we all need a dose of reality every once in a while... .Anyway.  I would normally respond with, "Ok.  Thanks for letting me know." on a first or second offense.  How I choose to handle it in this instance (knowing she has been sick) is saying, "Ok.  Thanks for letting me know.  Is she still sick?"

And the more "real" they become, also.  Accepting things as they are, now, not how we wish they were and acting from a place of wishfulness and wistfulness.

I feel that is almost sending mixed messages on my part and my biggest issue.  Advice I have been given is to, "Make sure your actions back up your words."  What I mean by that is I am trying to show that I want things to work out, and yet by continuing to "separate" things, doesn't that send the other message?  I am trying to be the "even keel" person in the r/s and show that, regardless of what has transpired, that I still love her, that we can get through this together, and want what's best for us, our kids and our r/s.  I also know that she has to want the same things, and believe she does somewhere outside of her illness or she would have already filed if that is what she truly wanted. 

Are you basing your relationship dynamics on what she posts on Facebook? 

I wouldn't necessarily say that.  As before, it helps knowing the cycle of her disordered mind.  Do I base my thoughts and actions on what she posts or her disordered mind?  No.  I do feel that I am "feeling" my way through this and it is uncomfortable.  Most of the time, I am ok with the way things are at the moment.  We are on somewhat "common ground" with our own lives and our own bills and things have gotten better.  Sometimes, I feel like I'm in a "no-win" and want to "blow it up" and tell her she either gets help or we're through.  I know two things:  First, I can't base my life off of feelings.  Feelings almost always lead you astray and why pwBPD are so out there at times.  Second, I have to have respect for myself that says, "I won't put up with this anymore."  I told her last time, " I feel like our r/s is a carrot you are dangling.  If I "pay this", then you'll "begin to trust me and we can begin to move forward".  Yet, so far, I have compromised many times in 9 months and yet, I don't see you making the same concessions.  I'm not ok with our marriage being used as a carrot to get your way anymore."  I felt good for saying that even though it pissed her off.  I am much stronger than I used to be.  Honestly, I am close to laying down the ultimatum that says, "We either start counseling (within a time frame) and work toward reconciling in earnest, or I'm filing for divorce".  And no, it wouldn't be a threat.  I won't wait around forever.  I wouldn't have said that 6 months ago, except out of anger. 

[123Phoebe]

Fair enough.

I can't base my life off of feelings.  Feelings almost always lead you astray and why pwBPD are so out there at times. 

Do you remember how you were feeling before checking out her Facebook page?  What prompted you to look at it?

[formflier]

I feel that is almost sending mixed messages on my part and my biggest issue.  Advice I have been given is to, "Make sure your actions back up your words."  What I mean by that is I am trying to show that I want things to work out, and yet by continuing to "separate" things, doesn't that send the other message?  I am trying to be the "even keel" person in the r/s and show that, regardless of what has transpired, that I still love her, that we can get through this together, and want what's best for us, our kids and our r/s.  I also know that she has to want the same things, and believe she does somewhere outside of her illness or she would have already filed if that is what she truly wanted. 

Hey... .let me give you some formflier advice.  Do what works! Stick with what works until it doesn't work anymore.  Then figure out what changed.

your message you are sending is you want a good r/s with her.  separating finances has gotten you a better r/s (I get it... .not the one you want... .but it is better... .right?)


Not disagreeing with Phoebes here... .I'm sensing concern on her part about FB. 

IF you are using it so get a sense of where in the cycle she is... .then I think you are ok.  But... .be careful about the mindreading.  FB is tricky ground... .be aware of it.

FF

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaroonLiquid]

Fair enough.

I can't base my life off of feelings.  Feelings almost always lead you astray and why pwBPD are so out there at times. 

Do you remember how you were feeling before checking out her Facebook page?  What prompted you to look at it?

Yeah, I do it when I am missing her.  Missing companionship with her and missing time together.

[Grey Kitty]

I feel that is almost sending mixed messages on my part and my biggest issue.  Advice I have been given is to, "Make sure your actions back up your words."  What I mean by that is I am trying to show that I want things to work out, and yet by continuing to "separate" things, doesn't that send the other message?  I am trying to be the "even keel" person in the r/s and show that, regardless of what has transpired, that I still love her, that we can get through this together, and want what's best for us, our kids and our r/s.  I also know that she has to want the same things, and believe she does somewhere outside of her illness or she would have already filed if that is what she truly wanted. 

... .

Honestly, I am close to laying down the ultimatum that says, "We either start counseling (within a time frame) and work toward reconciling in earnest, or I'm filing for divorce".  And no, it wouldn't be a threat.  I won't wait around forever.  I wouldn't have said that 6 months ago, except out of anger. 

Your wife is giving you a horrible mixed message, bouncing back and forth between wanting you closer and pushing you away, with trying to manipulate you thrown into it. You are clearly sick of it, and that is both valid and reasonable.

Been there. I was getting ready to end it, but my wife realized that she couldn't do it right, so she chose to end it. My wife is high-functioning to the point of no longer meeting diagnostic criteria for BPD. Yours isn't there, so I wouldn't expect that kind of clarity from her.

In your shoes I'd be ready to give up on the marriage--or at least give up on the idea that it would be a fulfilling one.

You are still getting a chance to be a parent. Best for your r/s and best for the kids may not be the same thing.

Are you willing to stay in a this weird push-pull relationship with your wife so you can be a father to these kids?

Ultimatums don't work well... .especially with a pwBPD. I'd recommend you stay away from it. Especially because MC with a pwBPD often follows a path of either the T being completely snowed by the pwBPD and blaming you... .or if the T points out that the pwBPD needs to change anything, the T gets painted black, and T ends.

[123Phoebe]

I can't base my life off of feelings.  Feelings almost always lead you astray and why pwBPD are so out there at times.  

Do you remember how you were feeling before checking out her Facebook page?  What prompted you to look at it?

Yeah, I do it when I am missing her.  Missing companionship with her and missing time together.

So, you look at it when you're feeling lonely and longing?  That is "real", Maroon; those are real feelings. Do you feel closer to her when you can gauge (not engage) what she might do next, based on her postings?  

[MaroonLiquid]

In your shoes I'd be ready to give up on the marriage--or at least give up on the idea that it would be a fulfilling one.

I'm not ready to totally say that yet.  I think she is just now in the uncomfortable place of realizing how different the "reality" she convinced herself of really is"... .

You are still getting a chance to be a parent. Best for your r/s and best for the kids may not be the same thing.

Are you willing to stay in a this weird push-pull relationship with your wife so you can be a father to these kids?

This is what I'm not quite sure of anymore.  Kids need to see stability, and not sure they are really seeing that.  One week I'm there, the next two to four I'm not.  Yes, I may be the "even keel" one when I'm there, but what are they told when I'm not?  And what questions they may have when I'm not!  My oldest daughter and I used to be really close, and now, about the time that she starts to hug on me again, my wife dysregulates.  My son, the same thing.  First time we bonded in forever weekend before last at the lake, and then what happened?  She dysregulates.  Yes, I know that is about her, but I want my kids to see healthiness.  Is that what they are seeing?  I don't want my kids to have an unhealthy view of what r/s are, which is something I have had to fight my whole life.

Ultimatums don't work well... .especially with a pwBPD. I'd recommend you stay away from it. Especially because MC with a pwBPD often follows a path of either the T being completely snowed by the pwBPD and blaming you... .or if the T points out that the pwBPD needs to change anything, the T gets painted black, and T ends.

I get all that.  At the same time, at some point, I have to come to the realization that doing the same thing over and over again is insanity.  Not saying doing something different at this moment, but there has to be a line.  My wife is a very high functioning individual who claims to be great with setting "boundaries", but yet crosses mine all the time.  I don't think she wants a divorce, but at the same time, has had the balls in her court and had no incentive to want to change.  I think a part of her thinks I love her enought to put up with whatever.  I won't.  I think all people (even with mental illness) need to know that at some point you have a line in the sand.  If they choose to cross it, then you have to follow through.  Not as a manipulation, but for yourself.  That gives them room to still change, but also lets them know that you are serious.

So, you look at it when you're feeling lonely and longing?  That is "real", Maroon; those are real feelings. Do you feel closer to her when you can gauge (not engage) what she might do next, based on her postings? 

Yes, exactly.  That is a great way of putting it. 

[123Phoebe]

So, you look at it when you're feeling lonely and longing?  That is "real", Maroon; those are real feelings. Do you feel closer to her when you can gauge (not engage) what she might do next, based on her postings?  

Yes, exactly.  That is a great way of putting it.  

Has it helped?  In what ways?

Is there something you could do, other than check her FB, when you're feeling lonely?  A way to tend to your feelings that don't involve her?

[formflier]

Yeah, I do it when I am missing her.  Missing companionship with her and missing time together.

Dangerous... .make sure you have a wise mind when you open the page.  If missing her... .I say skip it.

Go for walk... .something else.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

You are still getting a chance to be a parent. Best for your r/s and best for the kids may not be the same thing.

Are you willing to stay in a this weird push-pull relationship with your wife so you can be a father to these kids?

This is what I'm not quite sure of anymore.  Kids need to see stability, and not sure they are really seeing that.  One week I'm there, the next two to four I'm not.  Yes, I may be the "even keel" one when I'm there, but what are they told when I'm not?  And what questions they may have when I'm not!  My oldest daughter and I used to be really close, and now, about the time that she starts to hug on me again, my wife dysregulates.  My son, the same thing.  First time we bonded in forever weekend before last at the lake, and then what happened?  She dysregulates.  Yes, I know that is about her, but I want my kids to see healthiness.  Is that what they are seeing?  I don't want my kids to have an unhealthy view of what r/s are, which is something I have had to fight my whole life.

She is the primary parent. She dsyregulates often. I'm guessing she did it more often when you lived there than she does now. Her children are witness to that.

Are your kids seeing healthiness? Not from their mom. Accept that they won't see that from their mom.

Are they seeing healthiness from you? You can live with good boundaries and show them how you handle a difficult person without taking it personally. You have been doing this, and getting better at it, especially in the last few months. I'm going to suggest that they are seeing better in you than they are seeing from other adults in their life. (Mostly your wife and her FOO... .the bar is set pretty low, sadly)

Are they seeing a healthy r/s between you and your wife? No. Are they seeing better behavior than they used to? I hope so.

If you file for divorce, it is certain to trigger your wife. I expect she will step up the parental alienation and withhold the kids from you more completely. (Even mentioning divorce is likely to have that result!) My recommendation is to save mention of divorce until you have given up completely on any romantic relationship with your wife... .and possibly until her kids are grown.

Separating your finances is making things better with your wife... .even if each step apart has your wife kicking and screaming about it. Once it is done, things go smoother.

I've got another thought about how she is LOUDLY expressing your non-existence in her life on facebook and with her FOO and friends. She's doing this to get a rise out of you. She WANTS you to chase after her... .so she can reject you and push you away. It is her coping mechanism. The more you can accept this, and yes, feel the hurt about it, but not react to it, the better off you will be. Once the slot machine (you) stops making any payouts, she will eventually tire of pulling the arm.

[MaroonLiquid]

Has it helped?  In what ways?

in some ways yes, and some ways no.  In ways it has helped, it has allowed me to see that they are all ok when we aren't communicating, and be a part of the kids "milestones" during that time as well (singing the national anthem, special events, etc that I wasn't "allowed" to be there for).  In ways it hasn't, it has made me mad at times with her crap (early on when she would bad mouth me under disguise).  I have learned to not allow her posts to affect me in terms of getting me to react.  If I feel a reaction coming, I will do something else.

Is there something you could do, other than check her FB, when you're feeling lonely?  A way to tend to your feelings that don't involve her?

I play video games when I feel lonely as that passes the time pretty quickly and "forget".  Would that be an example of how to "tend to my feelings that doesn't involve her".

Dangerous... .make sure you have a wise mind when you open the page.  If missing her... .I say skip it.

Go for walk... .something else.

FF

Obviously goes along with what Phoebe said... .I need to read up on wise mind again... .

She is the primary parent. She dysregulates often. I'm guessing she did it more often when you lived there than she does now. Her children are witness to that.

Probably, and she has pointed out (during the first few months) how the kids "acted out" when I'm around.  Not so much anymore.  On the other hand, that could be evidence twisted to say that I am to blame for that since it happens more when I'm around.

Are your kids seeing healthiness? Not from their mom. Accept that they won't see that from their mom.

Are they seeing healthiness from you? You can live with good boundaries and show them how you handle a difficult person without taking it personally. You have been doing this, and getting better at it, especially in the last few months. I'm going to suggest that they are seeing better in you than they are seeing from other adults in their life. (Mostly your wife and her FOO... .the bar is set pretty low, sadly)

I feel they are seeing helathiness from me.  I don't yell, raise my voice, or fight with their mom in front of them anymore.  I stay with them and take care of them.  I help them with homework, sports, and other things when I'm around.  I offer to take them places and go places with them.  Attend their functions when "allowed".  What other father (especially not a biological one) would try and stay involved  as much as I have.  Her FOO is as screwed up, as mine is and that is saying something.  She has no relationship with her mom anymore, she has painted her dad white because he asked her if she was "doing okay financially" (and yet couldn't stand him just two months ago until things blew up with her mom and wanted nothing to do with him).  She hasn't spoken to her oldest sister in 6-10 years, hasn't spoken to her older brother in two years, demeans her younger sister and barely speaks to her because she is bi-polar".  Her other older sister who she has always been close to (was the maid of honor at our wedding) lives a few hours away and barely talks to her anymore (talked almost everyday before) since she has not chosen sides between my wife and their mother.

Are they seeing a healthy r/s between you and your wife? No. Are they seeing better behavior than they used to? I hope so.

I believe they are... .

If you file for divorce, it is certain to trigger your wife. I expect she will step up the parental alienation and withhold the kids from you more completely. (Even mentioning divorce is likely to have that result!) My recommendation is to save mention of divorce until you have given up completely on any romantic relationship with your wife... .and possibly until her kids are grown.

Good point... .And why I am not considering that yet.  The hard thing for me is two-fold: figuring out where my line is and not giving up too soon. I just know that I'm not there yet.

Separating your finances is making things better with your wife... .even if each step apart has your wife kicking and screaming about it. Once it is done, things go smoother.

This is confusing to me.  You would think that each step apart would make her want to go back the other way.  I guess that is the hardest thing for me to get down deep right now.  I guess a disordered mind is something you can't really figure out.  And she probably doesn't realize it either.  But it does make things go smoother.

I've got another thought about how she is LOUDLY expressing your non-existence in her life on facebook and with her FOO and friends. She's doing this to get a rise out of you. She WANTS you to chase after her... .so she can reject you and push you away. It is her coping mechanism.

I see your point here.  What do you think that helps her cope with?  I wonder if this is the same coping mechanism my T said she uses when she "kicks me out".  He said that when all that she is left with is looking at herself, she can't handle it and has to reject me when she isn't strong enough to reject the unhealthy part of her and face it.

The more you can accept this, and yes, feel the hurt about it, but not react to it, the better off you will be. Once the slot machine (you) stops making any payouts, she will eventually tire of pulling the arm.

I do accept this and feel I'm not paying out.  I know a huge majority of the time I don't, but maybe there is times where I do and don't realize it.  Need to figure that out.  I will delete the app that I use to look at it. 

[formflier]

  Once it is done, things go smoother.

Maroon... .why do you think this is true. 

Why does the pattern work the way it does?

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon... .why do you think this is true. 

Why does the pattern work the way it does?

The only answer I have is she sees me as more self sufficient, therefore gaining more respect for me, and less like the other men in her life that only used her and were a drain on her.  It also gives her less control over me (which she doesn't necessarily want but doesn't know any other way to cope) which she hates because it makes her feel out of control.

[formflier]

Maroon... .why do you think this is true. 

Why does the pattern work the way it does?

The only answer I have is she sees me as more self sufficient, therefore gaining more respect for me, and less like the other men in her life that only used her and were a drain on her.  It also gives her less control over me (which she doesn't necessarily want but doesn't know any other way to cope) which she hates because it makes her feel out of control.

Pretty good answer.  I'll go with that.

We have to acknowledge we are guessing at why and her thinking... .but this makes sense.

So... .take your above explanation and apply it to the tax situation... .

What answer/actions does it suggest?

[formflier]

I wonder if this is the same coping mechanism my T said she uses when she "kicks me out".  He said that when all that she is left with is looking at herself, she can't handle it and has to reject me when she isn't strong enough to reject the unhealthy part of her and face it.

Realize this is also a best guess... .especially since your T doesn't treat her.

There could be other explanations... .or multiple odd reasons all tied up together.

ff

[MaroonLiquid]

Pretty good answer.  I'll go with that.

We have to acknowledge we are guessing at why and her thinking... .but this makes sense.

One reason I came to this conclusion is that I truly believe that she thought, just like her ex husband, I couldn't make it without her and would come crawling back to her with my tail between my legs.  I think in her disordered mind that I was just like her ex and her father that only "used her for gain".  She said that many times during our marriage.  Funny thing is, her mom said this to her two months ago and that is what sent my wife over the edge and booted her out.  She claims it was when she told our son he was lazy, but I think it was the other thing.  I think her mom figured out after me being there with her there a few times that things weren't as they were portrayed.  I think my wife is shocked that I have done as well on my own and haven't fallen flat on my face.  I believe she doesn't know how to deal with this dynamic very well because then she can't necessarily be the one to hold everything together and have the one-upsmanship anymore.  There is actually someone that is "on her level" that "meets her match" so to speak.  Maybe I have answered my own question as to why she kept taking things and holding them hostage.  Maybe it wasn't as much about narcissistic control as it was having "the upper hand" in the r/s that she thought she never really had in any of her other male r/s in her life.  With her dad, he would only contact her if he needed her to do something that put her in a no-win situation (boy does that sound familiar  ).  For example, he wanted her to try and get insurance on a condemned building (you can't obviously), and when she couldn't find a company to carry it, he told her she was a worthless POS and to not contact him ever again.  Her ex (the children's sperm donor), he never worked (if he did, it would be a couple of weeks that he would either quit or get fired).  About a year before they split, he bought a truck with no job using her credit.  When they divorced, she asked him to agree to sell their house and sign off on the paperwork with the real estate agent.  Even though it was part of their divorce decree that he do it, he didn't and it went into foreclosure. 

So... .take your above explanation and apply it to the tax situation... .

What answer/actions does it suggest?

She throws a fit because the control is not in her hands, but deep down, she ultimately gets over it because she sees me as not using her and doing the right thing for the both of us.  She is not used to me standing up to her either regarding the washer and dryer.

I wonder if this is the same coping mechanism my T said she uses when she "kicks me out".  He said that when all that she is left with is looking at herself, she can't handle it and has to reject me when she isn't strong enough to reject the unhealthy part of her and face it.

Realize this is also a best guess... .especially since your T doesn't treat her.

There could be other explanations... .or multiple odd reasons all tied up together.

ff

I do realize that, but he does specialize in BPD and NPD (didn't know this until about 9 months ago and seeing him for almost two years now) which allows me to trust his professional opinion more than others... .

[123Phoebe]

Maroon... .why do you think this is true.  

Why does the pattern work the way it does?

The only answer I have is she sees me as more self sufficient, therefore gaining more respect for me, and less like the other men in her life that only used her and were a drain on her.  It also gives her less control over me (which she doesn't necessarily want but doesn't know any other way to cope) which she hates because it makes her feel out of control.

I would like to tweak this to read:

I feel more self-sufficient, I have more respect for myself.  I have more control over x y and z = my stuff, letting her take care of her stuff, which makes room for us to find and figure out what our stuff is... .and how to build on it...

Does the way I phrased it ring true?

[Grey Kitty]

Separating your finances is making things better with your wife... .even if each step apart has your wife kicking and screaming about it. Once it is done, things go smoother.

This is confusing to me.  You would think that each step apart would make her want to go back the other way.  I guess that is the hardest thing for me to get down deep right now.  I guess a disordered mind is something you can't really figure out.  And she probably doesn't realize it either.  But it does make things go smoother.

There is more than one model of a "close romantic relationship" in this world. Today I know two different women in very different life situations... .who have a fantastic relationship with a fantastic guy that has only been in their life for months or a year or two. I'd say that they both hope to spend the rest of their lives with this guy. Neither one has any plan to move in with the guy or invite the guy to move in with them. Probably not this decade. Or to have a joint checking account even.

In your case... .if over the next three years your wife gets into therapy and makes huge progress... .and the two of you decide to move in together again... .I think that your best bet would be to keep your finances completely separate even then. Possibly open a joint checking account to handle household bills and both contribute to it. Or maybe not even bother with that.

It would be possible have a deep trusting emotional connection and a fantastic sex life and raise kids together, without any joint finances.

... .take the steps to financially separate from your wife because everything will go better when you achieve this.

My wife and I still have a lot of joint finances, because money isn't our hot-button issue. It is a bit cleaner that we are separating. In our cases, when we went to having individual phone numbers and individual email addresses, those changes involved a lot of kicking and screaming, but ultimately felt much better to both of us... .long before we were thinking we would split.

Having room to be your own individual person makes it easier to be happy connecting with another person.

I've got another thought about how she is LOUDLY expressing your non-existence in her life on facebook and with her FOO and friends. She's doing this to get a rise out of you. She WANTS you to chase after her... .so she can reject you and push you away. It is her coping mechanism.

I see your point here.  What do you think that helps her cope with?  I wonder if this is the same coping mechanism my T said she uses when she "kicks me out".  He said that when all that she is left with is looking at herself, she can't handle it and has to reject me when she isn't strong enough to reject the unhealthy part of her and face it.

Yep, sounds like the same sort of thing your T is talking about. Have you read the lesson on BPD BEHAVIORS: Projection

It isn't your job to figure out what difficult feelings she is avoiding. But the basic thing is this--if she can find a way to blame you, she doesn't have to deal with her own feelings. If you accept the blame, you help her do this. If you argue/fight with her about applying the blame to you, you help her do this. If you refuse to pick up the provocation, she may well have to find a new coping mechanism.

[MaroonLiquid]

I would like to tweak this to read:

I feel more self-sufficient, I have more respect for myself.  I have more control over x y and z = my stuff, letting her take care of her stuff, which makes room for us to find and figure out what our stuff is... .and how to build on it...

Does the way I phrased it ring true?

Yes, it certainly does.  I am actually proud of myself for "standing tall" in the face of adversity rather than falling into a puddle because my life is in a hard spot at the moment.

There is more than one model of a "close romantic relationship" in this world... .In your case... .if over the next three years your wife gets into therapy and makes huge progress... .and the two of you decide to move in together again... .

My first thought is it would be a frozen day in hell before two to three years would pass and I would still be sitting in the same "poopy diaper" called "limbo Land".  After sleeping on it and re-reading it, I see what you are saying to a point.  Do I love her to see her through that?  Yes, absolutely.  But I still don't think I could live apart from the person I love for 2 to three years. 

I think that your best bet would be to keep your finances completely separate even then. Possibly open a joint checking account to handle household bills and both contribute to it. Or maybe not even bother with that.

It would be possible have a deep trusting emotional connection and a fantastic sex life and raise kids together, without any joint finances.

... .take the steps to financially separate from your wife because everything will go better when you achieve this.

I have to think on this.  My first thought is, if she is making huge progress, then we should be able to trust each other... .

Having room to be your own individual person makes it easier to be happy connecting with another person.

I agree with this... .

Yep, sounds like the same sort of thing your T is talking about. Have you read the lesson on BPD BEHAVIORS: Projection

Yeah, I've read projection, splitting and silent treatment ones more than any others... .

It isn't your job to figure out what difficult feelings she is avoiding. But the basic thing is this--if she can find a way to blame you, she doesn't have to deal with her own feelings. If you accept the blame, you help her do this. If you argue/fight with her about applying the blame to you, you help her do this. If you refuse to pick up the provocation, she may well have to find a new coping mechanism.

Yeah, and because of my FOO, I fight the urge to want to still defend myself at times and be right!     Not as much anymore.  She hates when I say, I'm sorry you feel that way and mocks me.  I know why she does it... .

[MaroonLiquid]

I would like to tweak this to read:

I feel more self-sufficient, I have more respect for myself.  I have more control over x y and z = my stuff, letting her take care of her stuff, which makes room for us to find and figure out what our stuff is... .and how to build on it...

Does the way I phrased it ring true?

Yes, it certainly does.  I am actually proud of myself for "standing tall" in the face of adversity rather than falling into a puddle because my life is in a hard spot at the moment.

There is more than one model of a "close romantic relationship" in this world... .In your case... .if over the next three years your wife gets into therapy and makes huge progress... .and the two of you decide to move in together again... .

My first thought is it would be a frozen day in hell before two to three years would pass and I would still be sitting in the same "poopy diaper" called "limbo Land".  After sleeping on it and re-reading it, I see what you are saying to a point.  Do I love her to see her through that?  Yes, absolutely.  But I still don't think I could live apart from the person I love for 2 to three years. 

I think that your best bet would be to keep your finances completely separate even then. Possibly open a joint checking account to handle household bills and both contribute to it. Or maybe not even bother with that.

It would be possible have a deep trusting emotional connection and a fantastic sex life and raise kids together, without any joint finances.

... .take the steps to financially separate from your wife because everything will go better when you achieve this.

I have to think on this.  My first thought is, if she is making huge progress, then we should be able to trust each other... .

Having room to be your own individual person makes it easier to be happy connecting with another person.

I agree with this... .

Yep, sounds like the same sort of thing your T is talking about. Have you read the lesson on BPD BEHAVIORS: Projection

Yeah, I've read projection, splitting and silent treatment ones more than any others... .

It isn't your job to figure out what difficult feelings she is avoiding. But the basic thing is this--if she can find a way to blame you, she doesn't have to deal with her own feelings. If you accept the blame, you help her do this. If you argue/fight with her about applying the blame to you, you help her do this. If you refuse to pick up the provocation, she may well have to find a new coping mechanism.

Yeah, and because of my FOO, I fight the urge to want to still defend myself at times and be right!     Not as much anymore.  She hates when I say, I'm sorry you feel that way and mocks me.  I know why she does it... .

One thing I forgot to add, is last night I deleted the app that allows me to see my wife's Facebook.  I was proud of myself.  I realized real quick how many times I checked it because I would go to the app and realized, "Oh yeah, I deleted it."  I feel better about myself. 

[Grey Kitty]

There is more than one model of a "close romantic relationship" in this world... .In your case... .if over the next three years your wife gets into therapy and makes huge progress... .and the two of you decide to move in together again... .

My first thought is it would be a frozen day in hell before two to three years would pass and I would still be sitting in the same "poopy diaper" called "limbo Land".  After sleeping on it and re-reading it, I see what you are saying to a point.  Do I love her to see her through that?  Yes, absolutely.  But I still don't think I could live apart from the person I love for 2 to three years. 

There is more than one way to look at this.

It is limbo land if you are waiting for her and hoping that she will do something different. That is putting her firmly in control of your life and feels terrible. Doing it for 2-3 years sounds horrible.

If you see the choice you are making, and are making a choice that is true to your own values, it feels 100% different. Even if the actions you take are nearly identical.

• You are very loyal to your children (including her bio-kids that you raised). Staying in their lives fits your values.



• You are also loyal to your wife. Giving her as many chances as you possibly can also fits your values. (Note... .you make no mention of her dating/seeing other guys, and you haven't even mentioned the possibility of a new relationship that I've seen.)



• You have had moments you have re-connected with your wife, and those have felt very good to you. Nurturing that connection fits your values.



• You feel very good about your ability to build a life for yourself and your kids that works for you, without depending on your wife for it. This fits your values



• Allowing your wife the room to personally succeed or fail, see the consequences of it, and perhaps choose differently is something that is hard for you... .but I think you are seeing how it is for the best as well.

When I say 2-3 years, I don't mean repeating this last week 150 times over.

I mean 150 weeks where you learn a bit more, and live a bit better each week. I mean 150 weeks where your wife has an opportunity to do better each one of those weeks, and (I hope) she learns something some of those weeks as well.

And if you don't move back in with her over those 150 weeks--they still can all be better than last week.

I have to think on this.  My first thought is, if she is making huge progress, then we should be able to trust each other... .

"should" is a f***ing dangerous word. Right up there with "deserve." They usually come up when you are hoping/wishing/believing that the world is different than it actually is.

And given what you have described about your wife... .even if she does make huge progress... .the last and hardest thing for her will probably be money.

Trusting somebody is not a reason to expose yourself to unnecessary risks. You trust me. You aren't going to put my name on your bank account. I have no need to have access to it. You have no need for that kind of exposure to me. You wouldn't give me a key to your front door either.

My wife knew all my passwords. I trusted her not to take advantage of this. A few months ago, I changed all my passwords to something she doesn't know. Not because she violated my trust. Not because I expect her to violate my trust. Because there was no longer any reason for her to have that kind of access.

[MaroonLiquid]

It is limbo land if you are waiting for her and hoping that she will do something different. That is putting her firmly in control of your life and feels terrible. Doing it for 2-3 years sounds horrible.

Yes, yes it does. 

If you see the choice you are making, and are making a choice that is true to your own values, it feels 100% different. Even if the actions you take are nearly identical.

• You are very loyal to your children (including her bio-kids that you raised). Staying in their lives fits your values.

I want them to know there is a man in their life that won't abandon them. 

• You are also loyal to your wife. Giving her as many chances as you possibly can also fits your values. (Note... .you make no mention of her dating/seeing other guys, and you haven't even mentioned the possibility of a new relationship that I've seen.)

I won't date as long as I'm married and she shares the same value.  If I find out she is/has or whatever, it's over.  I don't think she would as long as there isn't divorce proceedings.  During a divorce is a completely different story on both parts.

• You have had moments you have re-connected with your wife, and those have felt very good to you. Nurturing that connection fits your values.

Yes, and connecting with her and nurturing that is special to me.  I'm finding that loving her in spite of her illness is very easy.  She is a great person who is driven by ill thinking, yet she can be one of the most amazing people I have ever met who gets me and vice versa.  Regardless of BPD and mirroring, the connection between us is undeniable... .

• You feel very good about your ability to build a life for yourself and your kids that works for you, without depending on your wife for it. This fits your values

Yes, and never having lived on my own, it has been nice.  Almost like a refuge from the storm of BPD... .

• Allowing your wife the room to personally succeed or fail, see the consequences of it, and perhaps choose differently is something that is hard for you... .but I think you are seeing how it is for the best as well.

Yes, I do... .It is hard because the "husband" part of me wants to spare her of those things.  Not as enabling or making decisions for her, but because I want the best for her. 

And given what you have described about your wife... .even if she does make huge progress... .the last and hardest thing for her will probably be money.

Trusting somebody is not a reason to expose yourself to unnecessary risks. You trust me. You aren't going to put my name on your bank account. I have no need to have access to it. You have no need for that kind of exposure to me. You wouldn't give me a key to your front door either.

My wife knew all my passwords. I trusted her not to take advantage of this. A few months ago, I changed all my passwords to something she doesn't know. Not because she violated my trust. Not because I expect her to violate my trust. Because there was no longer any reason for her to have that kind of access.

I see what you are saying here, and to some extent I agree with it.  I truly think that most of her "issues" with money is because as a child, her family never had much except necessities, she has worked hard to get where she is in spite of her upbringing and screwed up FOO, and her ex husband.  I think once she works on those things, she will have a different outlook on things as a whole.  I'm not trying to sound like it would all be ok, but I understand why those money issues are there.

This weekend we are supposed to be celebrating my son's 6th birthday "as a family" (just the 8 of us).  Since we haven't spoken since Friday, I hope she doesn't let my son down.  He is really looking forward to it. 

Still plan on keeping the kids in a couple of weeks while she is out of town on business.  It just happens to be my birthday weekend which sucks.  But oh well.  Curious how she will handle both.  Going out of town is always stressful for her and on top of that missing my birthday will probably make for an even more difficult time. 

[formflier]

One thing I forgot to add, is last night I deleted the app that allows me to see my wife's Facebook.  I was proud of myself.  I realized real quick how many times I checked it because I would go to the app and realized, "Oh yeah, I deleted it."  I feel better about myself. 

   High five to Maroon!

[formflier]

I have to think on this.  My first thought is, if she is making huge progress, then we should be able to trust each other... .

This jumped out at me... .  I think this way about my wife... and... .couple days ago this thinking "ate my lunch... "  bad... .

I thought she she asked me to express my feelings about my child... .it "should" be ok to relax... let me guard down and be "honest"... and "open"

So... I wasn't using any tools... just expressing my love for kid...

She flipped out... .  she "shouldn't" have done that... but she did.  I wasn't ready... .it was a bad day.

Dealing with BPD land is about contingencies and about probability of success (based on what has been working)

IMO... .for you... .that means keep separating finances... .individual taxes.

For me... .even though I really want to express feelings to my wife... .I should still be careful and at best realize this could be another "out of nowhere" flip out. 

So... .if she asks about feelings on a bad day... .I need to keep defenses up.  ON good day... .tread carefully... .and have tools ready.

Last comment... .think more about what is... .and now what should be.  (Am I talking to you... .or me?  hmmm)

[MaroonLiquid]

   High five to Maroon!

Thanks.  A part of me does want to check, but dealing with it.

This jumped out at me... . I think this way about my wife... and... .couple days ago this thinking "ate my lunch... "  bad... .

I thought she she asked me to express my feelings about my child... .it "should" be ok to relax... let me guard down and be "honest"... and "open"

So... I wasn't using any tools... just expressing my love for kid...

She flipped out... . she "shouldn't" have done that... but she did.  I wasn't ready... .it was a bad day.

Dealing with BPD land is about contingencies and about probability of success (based on what has been working)

IMO... .for you... .that means keep separating finances... .individual taxes.

Yeah, I know.  Is is bad to wish they would wake up and say, "Geez, my thinking is really screwed up.!"  

For me... .even though I really want to express feelings to my wife... .I should still be careful and at best realize this could be another "out of nowhere" flip out.  

So... .if she asks about feelings on a bad day... .I need to keep defenses up.  ON good day... .tread carefully... .and have tools ready.

Last comment... .think more about what is... .and now what should be.  (Am I talking to you... .or me?  hmmm)

I do keep my defenses up.  :)o you think they notice that our defenses are up?  I know she sees me react to her differently.  Especially when I validate which I never understood what that was before 9 or 10 months ago.  When she walked in the other day after getting in from out of town and gave me a hug without me instigating it, it made the hard times bearable and "forgivable"... .Starting to miss her a little bit.  It gets easier with each dysreg to where I don't miss her as much if that makes sense.  One thing I have always loved is hugging and holding her... .Boy I'm sad... .

[formflier]

Yeah, I know.  Is is bad to wish they would wake up and say, "Geez, my thinking is really screwed up.!"  

So... .when are you going to go meet with your CPA and get your taxes done... .?

[MaroonLiquid]

Yeah, I know.  Is is bad to wish they would wake up and say, "Geez, my thinking is really screwed up.!"  

So... .when are you going to go meet with your CPA and get your taxes done... .?

... .yeah, in the next week... .

I am still getting the cold shoulder, business like attitude (will answer about anything that doesn't involve family) from my wife.  Last night, I texted her to let her know that I have a party invitation for our daughter from another girl on our team.  I also added that I thought the girls played well.  Her response was, "When is the party?"  I told her it was the weekend before she leaves town and also said that I had found a replacement glove for our son and she said, "Ok thanks".  I sent her a picture taken at team picture day of me and the three girls and said, "This is a really good picture of my girls and I!"  No response.  It has been a hard road to get to where I can mostly laugh this off, but no matter what, it gets old.  I have learned to let it go, but good Lord!  I just get tired of it, and I don't know how they don't.  I haven't texted this morning and won't.  It amazed me how they feel they have a right to punish for not getting their way but expect not to be held accountable for their poor behavior.  This is not really a vent as much as just talking out loud.

[Grey Kitty]

I am still getting the cold shoulder, business like attitude (will answer about anything that doesn't involve family) from my wife. ... .I sent her a picture taken at team picture day of me and the three girls and said, "This is a really good picture of my girls and I!"  No response. 

Maroon, you knew that wasn't going to go well. You knew she was giving you the cold shoulder.

Why did you think it was a good idea to send her a pic like that?

[formflier]

 

Do you just do your own taxes... and wait for her to ask... .or do you give her a heads up? 

Turning this over in my head... .

As far as Maroon sending that pic... .there needs to be some way for him to "test the waters... " and see how she is doing.

However... he shouldn't "test"... .when he is not strong and ready for a bad ... or no... .reaction...

Thoughts?

[Rapt Reader]

This thread has reached its page limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thank you for understanding... .