I am my mother's daughter

[Suzn]

This is probably more of an inventory post but I’m sharing it here because as I see it this is where I am today; healing from the effects of a mother who has exhibited waif/hermit traits. I have only become aware of these traits recently, I’ve always thought my mother had done the best she could raising my brother and I.  Well, she did do the best she could. I am not defending her, I am seeing the facts.

I have struggled with posting my story here because I’ve read so many stories here and I’m always left with the feeling that I didn’t have a dam thing to complain about compared. (Don’t save me from this I’m saving myself) Plus I always tend to write a novel to get everything I'm thinking you need to know to understand my situation, so I've been unsure how to start.  

I came to this site several years ago through the Leaving board in attempts to recover from a r/s with a pwBPD. I have worked diligently to become more self-aware of my own behaviors through this site, my T and the tons of books I’ve read. I’ve determined the depth of my codependency but I have just recently seen the fleas from my mother and how embedded they are. I have catastrophic thinking for one thing, I recognize this and manage. She passed her fears on to me through her catastrophic thinking, I’ve struggled my whole adult life with them. I recognize how they've held me back and I do often force myself to push past them.

My story in a nutshell.

There was physical abuse from two Uncles in which my mother did nothing to keep us safe from. One of which was an alcoholic who didn't know his own strength and left bruises many times. This happened over my entire childhood off and on. As a result I don’t believe in spanking. I’ve gone in the other direction to the extreme in my thinking. There was also the use of religion to isolate us. I don’t talk of this much because it can be seen as a contentious subject. I will say, it was a lifestyle we were expected to live up to when my mother didn't do the same and told that we shouldn't associate with others as they were not awake to the truth of our religious beliefs. Of course in our minds as children that meant people outside of our church were “bad.” Unfortunately, with my mother’s fears we didn't associate with church members either. She never made any friends at church so we didn't either. She had many affairs with married men over the course of our childhood. My brother and I are both products of. During the course of her working and being out with these men we were left alone a lot. I was parentified by being put in charge of my brother way too young and from her sharing much about our financial situation which was always poor and sharing information with me about these married men. Neither my brother nor myself met our fathers till we were well into our adult years. We moved around a lot, every year or year and a half so we were always the new kids. As a result neither of us gained much in the social skills area. When we moved we would always end up first living with dysfunctional family members because my mother never had savings or credit cards to make getting our own place possible. She would eventually get us a place of our own each time. There were a couple times where we moved from one family member's house to another in a different state however.  

A couple months ago I went through what I can only identify after reading through the information on this board as a therapeutic crisis. This experience found some deep anger in me that I didn't know existed. I have stuffed feelings for so long that I didn't know I was capable of feeling this intensely. Basically I lost the self control I've worked hard to have or that I thought I had. I confronted my mother about the past. I was not kind. As a result of that she started to grab on real tight to me and more behaviors behind these traits emerged. I am imagining now she felt pretty exposed. There was no blow up on her part, only on mine. She was dismissive at first, then went into how sorry she was and then defended her actions. I'm seeing that I have the capability for this cycle myself.

As recently as last week I've recognized so much of the fear traits in myself. I’ve always worn my feelings on my sleeve. As much as I worked to be a survivor and a thriver I have spent a lot of time in victim mode. Here's where it started to come together... .

I moved away from my family about two months ago now. I spent a year in their company where they live, my plans were to move there, start a new life in a beautiful place, be closer to my family and practice all the “skills” I had learned over the past couple years. It didn’t work out, I found and exceeded my limits emotionally with my family and came back home.

I could have gone back to my old job here but I wanted to work for a different company. I was looking for a more professional environment and I found that in my new job. I like the way they do business, it’s very structured and I like that. They all seem professional and are respectful of each other. Something my old job lacked. So I’m new but I’ve been there for a little over a month. We have a mandatory safety meeting every Tuesday at 7:30 am. In their attempts to cut down on overtime our hours have fluctuated between be here at 7 and be here at 8. The Monday before last my new boss told me and few other employees to be at work at 8, me thinking ok I guess he is excusing us from the safety meeting. He forgot about the safety meeting and had another employee call to remind me and the others. I’m thinking this guy doesn't know what I was just told and didn't say anything. Confused yet? Bottom line, I’m still pretty scattered from my recent experience with my mom and moving. I didn't ask “hey what about the meeting in the morning?” And I didn’t think to tell this guy calling me what I was told by the boss to clarify.

I showed up at 8. I was late to the meeting but I made the end of it and all was well. The next Tuesday I forget about the meeting entirely. He wrote me up at the end of the day. Well that was a punch in the gut to me. I kept my composure but after I left I felt the lump in my throat and my first thoughts were “I really don’t need this right now, I am employable and I don’t want to work for someone so tight fisted over something like this, I’m new here. He’s changed my hours several times, cut my overtime after we discussed in my interview that overtime was important to me!” I was totally in victim mode.

Over the next couple hours I pull it together and I keep turning all of this over in my mind, I do want to work for someone who takes safety meetings seriously. Missing this meeting was my fault. Even though my focus is scattered it’s my responsibility to remember important meetings. I found a new moto… “suck it up buttercup.” That may seem harsh but here’s the thing… it makes me ill to know I have the propensity to be in victim mode from what I learned from my mother and I’ll be damned if I am going to give in to it. And because I saw this in this situation last week now I'm looking back at the multitude of times I’ve felt this way in other situations and how I’ve felt this way about other people and gave in to it. Now who feels exposed?

I’m digging this flea out. I can hear my T in my head, "you are too hard on yourself"... .umm no. Working on self awareness is hard, that's why they call it work and that's why I'm here.

I can see I am at steps 9, 10, 11, and 12 in the survivors guide kind of all at the same time. 12 being posting about this an getting it out in the open so that this feeling of being exposed can and will dissipate. I think I have self compassion, I've done inner child work but I also want to be real clear with myself on the difference between compassion for myself and victim mode.

Anyone else digging deep into what makes you tic?

[Kwamina]

Hi Suzn

Welcome to coping and healing  The best way to start is just start  so I'm glad you are sharing your story here now.

Well, she did do the best she could. I am not defending her, I am seeing the facts.

Learning to accept the reality of who our BPD parents are does also include accepting their limitations. Based on your statement I see that you have come to realize that it's not just that your mother's behavior was problematic, but also that she (unfortunately) lacks certain skills and abilities that would allow her to behave better. Would you say that's an accurate assessment of your mother?

I came to this site several years ago through the Leaving board in attempts to recover from a r/s with a pwBPD.

There is an old saying: 'All roads lead to the coping and healing board'  I think many members on here will be able to relate to what you've said here. As a result of being raised by a BPD parent, many of us didn't real know what a 'normal' or 'healthy' relationship or family life looked like. We may not have liked how things were, yet it was still all we knew and in a sense all we were comfortable with. As a result we sometimes end up in our adult lives, recreating the same dynamics we experienced and learned as a kid. Not because we really like it, but more because it was all we know and were comfortable with. Healthy relationships could even feel scary because they are so different from what we are used to. Looking back, would you say this applies to your situation as well? Or perhaps that you were somehow seeking something in your adult life that could balance out what you had been through as a child?

I have just recently seen the fleas from my mother and how embedded they are. I have catastrophic thinking for one thing, I recognize this and manage. She passed her fears on to me through her catastrophic thinking, I’ve struggled my whole adult life with them. I recognize how they've held me back and I do often force myself to push past them.

Being able to identify the fleas is already significant progress and the first step towards change You say you recognize the 'catastrophic thinking' and that you manage. Could you elaborate on this? How do you manage and how do you succeed in pushing past this form of thinking?

Many children of BPD parents learn certain BPD-traits from them and/or develop certain coping mechanisms that might not be all that 'healthy'. Fortunately these learned behaviors or traits can also be unlearned or better managed through hard work like you're doing now How does it make you feel to recognize these traits in yourself?

Neither my brother nor myself met our fathers till we were well into our adult years. We moved around a lot, every year or year and a half so we were always the new kids. As a result neither of us gained much in the social skills area. When we moved we would always end up first living with dysfunctional family members because my mother never had savings or credit cards to make getting our own place possible. She would eventually get us a place of our own each time. There were a couple times where we moved from one family member's house to another in a different state however.

I can imagine how tough this must have been for you and your brother moving around all the time staying with dysfunctional family-members. How is your relationship with your brother? Are the two of you close and have you shared your recent insights about your mother with him?

Over the next couple hours I pull it together and I keep turning all of this over in my mind, I do want to work for someone who takes safety meetings seriously. Missing this meeting was my fault. Even though my focus is scattered it’s my responsibility to remember important meetings. I found a new moto… “suck it up buttercup.” That may seem harsh but here’s the thing… it makes me ill to know I have the propensity to be in victim mode from what I learned from my mother and I’ll be damned if I am going to give in to it. And because I saw this in this situation last week now I'm looking back at the multitude of times I’ve felt this way in other situations and how I’ve felt this way about other people and gave in to it. Now who feels exposed?

In several ways you are in new territory. Your view of your mother and your childhood is changing, you came back home and decided not to move closer to your family and also have a new job. I think it's probably normal that you are in a somewhat sensitive state right now. I would indeed suggest treating yourself with compassion during this transitional phase as you try to establish a new inner equilibrium.

You are also right that there is a difference between treating yourself with compassion and being in victim-mode. You have just recently acknowledged that your mother is likely (u)BPD and that the way she treated you as a child can be classified as abuse. How does this make you feel? Do you feel like you've been able to accept that you were powerless as a child over your mother's actions which made you a victim?

[Suzn]

Well, she did do the best she could. I am not defending her, I am seeing the facts.

she (unfortunately) lacks certain skills and abilities that would allow her to behave better. Would you say that's an accurate assessment of your mother?

Yes, that's accurate. This is why I go back and forth about feeling guilty about confronting her, that I wasn't kind and feeling I have a right to feel angry with her. I don't want to be mad at her, I don't like feeling this way. She's in her 70's so there's the guilt behind knowing she will never change and frankly I don't wish this journey on anyone at times. It's painful. So with that there was a long period of time where I would share tidbits of knowledge where my brother and nephew were concerned to help her not do more damage. (She is playing a large role in raising my nephew, my brother is in a relationship almost identical to the one that landed me here.) I was saving her from the knowledge of herself in a way. But this was before I connected all the dots so to speak. I didn't repress memories, I remember everything but I have a different perspective now that I have spent a year with them in person. For many years it was phone calls and a few short visits.

I came to this site several years ago through the Leaving board in attempts to recover from a r/s with a pwBPD.

Healthy relationships could even feel scary because they are so different from what we are used to. Looking back, would you say this applies to your situation as well? Or perhaps that you were somehow seeking something in your adult life that could balance out what you had been through as a child?

I didn't know what a healthy relationship looked like. I really had no understanding of boundaries and how that was supposed to work. Meaning, I had little in the way of boundaries for myself and I have stepped over many for others being codependent. I have/had the child of an alcoholic dynamic as an adult. My mother didn't drink much but I was most influenced by my alcoholic uncle, he was my main abuser. I held my mother harmless where he was concerned because I knew she was always scared too. I mean most of the occasions where he was abusive we lived in his house so she feared saying anything. Today, that's not good enough.

I left out about the times when she wasn't seeing anyone and when we had our own place. She would go to work, come home and go in her room and read most of the time. She was there but she wasn't. These were the few times when I felt safe. When we had our own place I felt safe. Even when she left us alone and I felt lonely I felt safe because it was predictable. Living with family members was chaotic and unpredictable. You never knew when you were going to do something or another child in the house was going to do something wrong, you would hear everyone of you damn kids line up!... .we knew what was coming. I spent A LOT of time telling the other kids "don't DO that, you're going to get us in trouble!" I was the oldest of all my cousins and my brother is 5 hears younger. So you not only got in trouble for what you did but for what someone else did AND the reasons you got in trouble were not really reasons to be in trouble or the timing of the punishment was just weird and wrong.

For example, when I lost it three months ago I remembered something that happened that I hadn't thought of for a long time. I didn't forget it I just don't enjoy replaying it in my mind. When I was 5 or 6, my brother was a baby that's how I place the time, we were living with my aunt and this uncle. My cousin and I were put down for a nap in the same bed, we weren't tired and we kept being told to be quiet and go to sleep. My uncle wasn't there when we were put in bed but he came home and by that time my cousin and I had calmed down and I remember being in the half awake and almost asleep state. My cousin was asleep. I felt a belt come across my back. He didn't stop with one. I hate this man, always have, he's been dead a long time now. I have no compassion for him nor do I think I'll ever have any.

When I was 30 he tired to get me to sleep with him. He was a very sick individual. I unleashed on him everything I had ever wanted to say to him that day but I was scared to death of him. I had my niece with me, that happened at my brother's house and he wasn't home. By this time in his life he was living in a motor home that my brother had let him park on his property. He and my brother drank together. Both alcoholics. Anyway, I was able to get him out of the house and I called my brother and told him to get his butt home. My uncle denied this happening later. I did happen.

Two things came of this, first I am fine living alone, I feel safe. Two, when I got lonely in the past, before recovery, what I looked for when I was interested in someone to date inevitably ended up being someone I could save, or change to be what I wanted in a relationship and someone I thought wouldn't leave me. Today, if I feel lonely I know it's the worst time to be considering dating anyone.

I have just recently seen the fleas from my mother and how embedded they are. I have catastrophic thinking for one thing, I recognize this and manage. She passed her fears on to me through her catastrophic thinking, I’ve struggled my whole adult life with them. I recognize how they've held me back and I do often force myself to push past them.

Being able to identify the fleas is already significant progress and the first step towards change You say you recognize the 'catastrophic thinking' and that you manage. Could you elaborate on this? How do you manage and how do you succeed in pushing past this form of thinking?

I recognized this a couple years ago when I was also starting to see the effects of being so isolated by my mother's behaviors with the religion, I mean I chalked it all up to the religious ideals but that wasn't the whole story, I didn't see the everything as a whole till I spent time with her and my brother this past year. What they say about recovery being like the layers of an onion are so very true.

What it looks like... everything I chose to do is evaluated on whether it's safe or not and for most of my life I wasn't really conscious of this. Like if I decide to take my dogs for a walk I imagine mean dogs getting ahold of them and having to save them and would I be able to? Today I tell myself to knock it off and I take my dogs for a walk. Those thoughts are still there, I pay attention but I still make myself take them for a walk.

When I'm really stressed I have a fear of driving over bridges, I do it but it's there. I noticed this fear while going through the breakup of my r/s prior to the r/s that brought me here, I was in the process of buying my house too so I was maxed on my stress level at the time.

I also have a fear of my house being secure or burning down. The wiring in this house isn't so great, it's old but you wouldn't know to look at it. So baring major appliances I don't leave things plugged in and I try to remember to check everything before I leave. Don't get me wrong I don't care about the house or my belongings, I have insurance but this fear centers around keeping my dogs safe. They can't be replaced. So I check and double check at times, this is about control, I am aware. My T is aware and since this isn't to the point of keeping me from being functional it's chalked up to my need for safety and understandable. It's not full blown OCD. There have been times I've come home to check something though but today I stop myself from doing that. I push past the thoughts and tell myself if something is going to happen then it's going to happen and you will be ok.

[Suzn]

Many children of BPD parents learn certain BPD-traits from them and/or develop certain coping mechanisms that might not be all that 'healthy'. Fortunately these learned behaviors or traits can also be unlearned or better managed through hard work like you're doing now How does it make you feel to recognize these traits in yourself?

Angry as hell for one. That I have no idea what it's like not to have catastrophic thinking. And that it's been a struggle to not live in victim mode. It makes me sick to see the depth. That I can see clearly now where my and my brother's issues come from. That I could have saved myself a LOT of heartache had I been taught what a healthy r/s looked like and been kept safe. All my r/s, except one, have been with an alcoholic and most with BPD traits.

At the same time I feel smarter today than I ever have felt. That I learned from these boards and from my T all about how to take care of myself and learned about myself so that I can now see what I've seen in my family. And that I can start a new step in recovery. I emailed my T for an appointment, I haven't seen her since I've been back yet. I told her it's time we start looking at the similarities between my mother and I and that it's time to be challenged. She's always been in my corner, taken my side, I know this is a therapy technique but it's time for a deeper look.

I can imagine how tough this must have been for you and your brother moving around all the time staying with dysfunctional family-members. How is your relationship with your brother? Are the two of you close and have you shared your recent insights about your mother with him?

Yes, we've discussed my mother's issues. He has the same feelings, in fact he reached anger a long time before I did. He's a recovering addict, he's been sober for 3 years, I think. There was a recent happening where I can't be sure of his sobriety. I ran across a white AA chip in his room when I was looking for something of my nephews. I didn't ask about it. He did however tell me in one of our conversations that he felt like he was back at step one in his behaviors centered around his r/s.

I'd say we were close before I moved out there. There were many times he would call and we would discuss recovery and the reasons behind things. Once I was there I tried to be very careful about not getting too involved with his personal life although it was difficult because we worked together and his "office" was in his home. This is one of the reasons I moved, to help him with his business and at the time I moved it was doing well. That changed. About half way through the year he started not showing up to help finish the jobs we had going. Well, that effects the bottom line and getting paid, for both of us. He has always disappeared in the past when he was drinking, I never saw anything that suggested he was drinking now but I did see the addict behaviors. If you are familiar with the term dry drunk I'd have to say that's where he is.

He is in a r/s with someone who is almost a carbon copy of my exBPDgf. He has also exhibited some traits. He is completely self absorbed to the point of not seeing his own son's needs. His focus is entirely on proving his love for his gf. He spent a lot of time during the end of my living there going to school plays, doctors appointments and therapy appointments for her and her children during the day leaving my nephew with my mother the majority of the time. My mother takes my nephew to the doctor most of the time. He has taken him but it mostly falls on her.   

Don't get me wrong, I think that that would be sweet to do things like this for your gf and her children under normal circumstances but it's not normal to exclude your own child. A child I will add that doesn't have his own mother in the picture. My brother's gf is not my nephew's mother.

What our r/s turned into before I left... there were times they would fight and he would come to me to talk. I tried so hard not to say too much but I did point out a few things when the opportunities presented themselves. I tried to present things from what I dealt with with my ex and what I learned from the experience. Things like seeing our role and becoming more accountable for my issues in my r/s. Nevertheless, he obviously didn't like what I was sharing because he came to me less and less. He doesn't have the capability to face his own role and any time I shared anything with him he coped with his guilt by jumping back into the fire with her and saying things like "it's you (his gf) and me against the world." I kept my mouth shut... a LOT.

I saw a change in me with him, I no longer felt the need to make sure he's ok to BE ok myself and that had been my history with him. There were two times he became overwhelmed with his r/s, the demands of the business and I'm guessing all his guilt surrounding me being there and not showing up for work knowing it was my livelihood too. In his upset he said he just wanted to blow his head off. After being on these boards, that hit me hard. It did scare me but not like it has in the past, he's said things like this a long time ago when he was drinking. I had forgotten.

This put me in a bad situation financially. I couldn't force him to show up and I didn't try. I just tried to do what I could, what I was skilled in, the rest I had no choice but to leave to him. I stopped making excuses for him to customers in the end. They wanted to know where he was and why things weren't done yet. At first I would say "you know my brother, he has too many irons in the fire" (this business was my livelihood too, I would like to think I was protecting the business but if I'm honest with myself I was protecting him) I ended up just saying "I don't know where he is." It was awkward and freeing at the same time.

I should be more angry with him than my mother so there's some projection going on on my part. I saw that too. My only excuse is that I'm looking at the source and that's not really fair in my mind. He's an adult, we both are. But right now he's not ready to hear or see anything past what he's doing with his gf. I do love him and it hurts to see him so messed up but I can't change it, it's his journey. What's happening with my nephew as a result is heartbreaking to me. He's only 3 years old and is being damaged by all of this. I can't control that either. 

You are also right that there is a difference between treating yourself with compassion and being in victim-mode. You have just recently acknowledged that your mother is likely (u)BPD and that the way she treated you as a child can be classified as abuse. How does this make you feel? Do you feel like you've been able to accept that you were powerless as a child over your mother's actions which made you a victim?

Yes. I do see that. I look at her part as neglect. She didn't see all of our needs and she didn't make those needs a priority. I have said many times in her defense that she made sure we had a roof over our heads and food to eat. But that's it. We had clothes but very few, she has a spending problem though. She had tons of clothes and I always looked at that as she needs clothes for work. I always defended her to others and myself. She didn't keep us out of harms way, stood right there and did nothing when the abuse from family was happening. In a lot of ways my brother is doing the exact same thing with his son.

[Suzn]

One other important bit of information, as far as my brother goes. I know my catastrophic thinking started as a child and so not only did my brother have to deal with my mom's he had to deal mine too. So he kind of had two "moms" who influenced him. The only word that described how I felt when I realized this was mortified. So I'm sure that along with being very triggered by seeing her pass down this thinking to my nephew now, I turned my anger on her for what I helped do to my brother in that aspect.

I may sound very matter of fact right now but it took about a month and a half to reach that point. I found an opportunity to speak with him about this and apologized. I know I was just a kid but I needed him to know that I saw this and that I did feel horrible about it.

His gf's oldest is a girl and she is completely parentified, I saw so much of myself in that little girl. I see how she treats my nephew and it just rips all through me. In the same conversation where I apologized I did tell him that this little girl has the same behaviors as I did when we were growing up and that hopefully he will address how she is with his son. I asked him "do you remember what this felt like when we were kids? I hope you will watch this with my nephew."  

[Kwamina]

Hi again suzn

Thanks for so elaborately answering my questions

Today, if I feel lonely I know it's the worst time to be considering dating anyone.

Great piece of insight!

I may sound very matter of fact right now but it took about a month and a half to reach that point. I found an opportunity to speak with him about this and apologized. I know I was just a kid but I needed him to know that I saw this and that I did feel horrible about it.

How did your brother respond to your apologies? Did he share how he perceived these events as he was going through them as a kid?

[Spruce927]

Hi!

I just wanted to let you know I came here and read your story  As a person who's new to examining my moms behavior and getting to understand BPD, I am for sure looking into myself as well.  You have someone in your corner!

[Suzn]

How did your brother respond to your apologies? Did he share how he perceived these events as he was going through them as a kid?

No. He didn't say anything. We did hug when he left which isn't something we've done much of.

Hi!

I just wanted to let you know I came here and read your story  As a person who's new to examining my moms behavior and getting to understand BPD, I am for sure looking into myself as well.  You have someone in your corner!

Thank you Spruce, that's very kind of you.

[Suzn]

Thanks for so elaborately answering my questions

I picture myself emptying a large barrel of puzzle pieces and spreading them out to find all the pieces of the edges first. Filling in the middle as I go. It's kinda like that.

I figured something out today. From Spruces post about what was the first thing you noticed about things being "off." I've never noticed things being off with my mother. I was very naive growing up, we were very sheltered from the outside world. We never played on a sports team or were allowed to join the scouts, things like that. This was due to religion mainly. Not allowed to go to birthday parties, I don't remember ever going to movies with other kids except cousins, which is baffling, kind of, only part of the family was in the same religion. We'll leave that at that.

My upset a couple months ago came from me seeing her passing this catastrophic thinking on to my 3 year old nephew. He was starting to show signs, he would often tell me how dangerous something was or share his thoughts about them like he might fall, break his head open and his brains would fall out if he fell off the couch. These are the kinds of things my mother says all the time. I wouldn't think a lot of it from a little boy saying these things except whenever we went places, her, myself and my nephew I watched her tell him no on about everything he picked up telling him how it might hurt him. I did damage control with him when he would say these things to me. I'd always offer other, more logical, possibilities. Ones that weren't frightening.

I spoke with my mother about this numerous times. One of these times I told her she was obsessed with death. She basically shrugs my thoughts about it off. During one of these conversations she told me when she was a kid she didn't feel anything for her siblings. That when her dad did things to them she was like a child in a corner. I don't know what "things" meant, she didn't elaborate.

In the same conversation she also told me "I don't think I loved you kids like I love (my nephews' name)". This did not hurt me, at all. This is where it clicked and where the flood of memories started. THIS was inappropriate to say to me. My response, and I don't know where it can from because I was shocked but calm, was "I am your daughter, I am not your therapist, you might want to talk to someone about this". At that moment I thought oohhh... .this isn't codependency. Which is what I thought for years. She has utterly forgotten she has said this.

When I visited the family two years ago to check things out before moving there I had forgotten how triggering that trip was. I got sick when I was there, I was afraid it was the flu but it didn't last but a day. I was supposed to spend the day with her and I wanted to. Anyway, I had stayed with my brother during this trip and when she showed up so we could run around I was in bed, sick. I asked if she would see if there was any advil in the house, she couldn't find any. She told me after I sweep the floors downstairs I will go get some. It wasn't her house! And I was seriously needing something to kill the body aches. I remember laying there thinking "don't get mad." My T had a fit about that, she thinks narcissism. I think she just doesn't think. She was uncomfortable with the floors needing swept not that I was sick so I can see my T's thinking. My T told me "if you have lived your entire life hearing things like that"... .I don't remember what she said after that, I going to ask if she does. 

Nevertheless, I started thinking back today. She's always been inappropriate with important things. She will give you "the look" when SHE doesn't think something is appropriate but doesn't know appropriateness in general. The affairs, the isolation, the abuse she watched happen and did nothing, today the lies to her husband. Somehow she thought or thinks this was/is appropriate. I know her fears played a role in her doing nothing about the abuse since we were living under someone else's roof but realistically how appropriate is it to be living with family for long periods in the first place?

My exBPDgf was like this. Affairs, lived with others since she couldn't keep it together and was neglectful of her kids. I did, so to speak, marry my mother. I'm not like my mother in this sense, never have been. I've moved a lot but I have always been the main breadwinner in my adult life. I settled down and bought a home. My similarities are fear and catastrophic thinking and I can manage those. I'm not saying I'm better than her just different.   

[Kwamina]

Hi again Suzn

When I was 5 or 6, my brother was a baby that's how I place the time, we were living with my aunt and this uncle. My cousin and I were put down for a nap in the same bed, we weren't tired and we kept being told to be quiet and go to sleep. My uncle wasn't there when we were put in bed but he came home and by that time my cousin and I had calmed down and I remember being in the half awake and almost asleep state. My cousin was asleep. I felt a belt come across my back. He didn't stop with one. I hate this man, always have, he's been dead a long time now. I have no compassion for him nor do I think I'll ever have any.

When I was 30 he tired to get me to sleep with him. He was a very sick individual. I unleashed on him everything I had ever wanted to say to him that day but I was scared to death of him. I had my niece with me, that happened at my brother's house and he wasn't home. By this time in his life he was living in a motor home that my brother had let him park on his property. He and my brother drank together. Both alcoholics. Anyway, I was able to get him out of the house and I called my brother and told him to get his butt home. My uncle denied this happening later. I did happen.

I am very sorry to hear you had this experience with your uncle when you were still so very young. I totally see why you would have such intense negative feelings about him even after all these years. Being hit with a belt is just horrible and him trying to get you to sleep with him is a whole new level of horrible. You called your brother to get home (well actually you told his butt to get home  ), how did your brother respond to what your uncle was trying to do? Had your uncle ever tried to do anything like this to you before? Or to other people as far as you know?

I figured something out today. From Spruces post about what was the first thing you noticed about things being "off." I've never noticed things being off with my mother. I was very naive growing up, we were very sheltered from the outside world. We never played on a sports team or were allowed to join the scouts, things like that. This was due to religion mainly. Not allowed to go to birthday parties, I don't remember ever going to movies with other kids except cousins, which is baffling, kind of, only part of the family was in the same religion. We'll leave that at that.

I think the experience of not noticing something is 'off' or not being fully aware of just how 'off' things are, is actually something many of us here can relate to. When you're raised in such an environment it's all you know and you only have the insider's perspective to look at things. It really takes the perspective of an outsider looking in to be able to determine if things might be 'off' and if so, just how 'off' they are. Have you in your adult life been able to break the isolation you were 'forced' to endure as a child?

My upset a couple months ago came from me seeing her passing this catastrophic thinking on to my 3 year old nephew. He was starting to show signs, he would often tell me how dangerous something was or share his thoughts about them like he might fall, break his head open and his brains would fall out if he fell off the couch. These are the kinds of things my mother says all the time. I wouldn't think a lot of it from a little boy saying these things except whenever we went places, her, myself and my nephew I watched her tell him no on about everything he picked up telling him how it might hurt him. I did damage control with him when he would say these things to me. I'd always offer other, more logical, possibilities. Ones that weren't frightening.

I spoke with my mother about this numerous times. One of these times I told her she was obsessed with death. She basically shrugs my thoughts about it off. During one of these conversations she told me when she was a kid she didn't feel anything for her siblings. That when her dad did things to them she was like a child in a corner. I don't know what "things" meant, she didn't elaborate.

It's very unfortunate that your mother's behavior is affecting your nephew. How does your brother view how your mother's behavior is affecting your nephew? Do you feel like your brother is able (and willing) to set boundaries with your mother to protect your nephew?

I spoke with my mother about this numerous times. One of these times I told her she was obsessed with death.

My mother has a similar obsession that I found very disturbing as a child and teenager. I clearly remember two times that a friend had given me something to eat. My mother's reaction was "Who gave it to you? Perhaps they are trying to poison you? I know about these things, you don't, you're naive!" This totally ruined my mood and to this day the word 'poison' triggers negative feelings inside of me all related to these two events.

In the same conversation she also told me "I don't think I loved you kids like I love (my nephews' name)". This did not hurt me, at all. This is where it clicked and where the flood of memories started. THIS was inappropriate to say to me. My response, and I don't know where it can from because I was shocked but calm, was "I am your daughter, I am not your therapist, you might want to talk to someone about this".

I am glad you were able to not take what your mother said personally. Though I can still imagine that it nevertheless wasn't pleasant to hear her say this to you. You responded by saying you are her daughter and not her therapist, which is the truth of course. Was this the only time you felt like she was 'using' you as her therapist? Do you feel like your mother has over the years always treated you more like a personal therapist than as a daughter?

[Suzn]

how did your brother respond to what your uncle was trying to do?

He didn't do anything. I wanted him to tell him to leave but he didn't. Years later he apologized for that, it was kind of out of the blue. At the same time, I think, he apologized for other things as he was working through PI steps in AA.    

Had your uncle ever tried to do anything like this to you before?

No. And once I was in my late teens I had as little to do with the rest of the family as possible. This did jog a memory though. I spent a lot of time hiding back when that first belt incident happened. There was a large group of bushes in their backyard, tall enough to be over my head at that age. I remember sitting under them. The thought of that makes me mad all over again. But one thing I'm really trying to do is question my memories from back then, it was so long ago. I know for a fact I tried to avoid him, all the time, but are the pictures in my mind matching my thoughts of why I sat in those bushes? Does it matter? I think it does to some extent.

I remember him chasing me around their backyard, I assume he was playing, making monster noises. He scared the heck out of me doing that. I didn't trust him of course, he killed that. He was too unpredictable and even as young as I was I saw that.

Or to other people as far as you know?

Yep, my mother. I told her about this and she shared he had done this with her. Other than her I don't know, I can't see how there wouldn't have been others knowing this.

Have you in your adult life been able to break the isolation you were 'forced' to endure as a child?

Yes. I think I have a mix of introvert and extrovert now. I am an extrovert with my friends, I am the "event coordinator" the majority of the time. I've been told I am the glue pulling our friend group together for getting out and about. However, I need and very much enjoy my alone time.  

How does your brother view how your mother's behavior is affecting your nephew? Do you feel like your brother is able (and willing) to set boundaries with your mother to protect your nephew?

He has only set one boundary around exposing my nephew to the religious literature. The pictures on those magazines can be disturbing. They were for both of us anyway. I did notice he offers logical possibilities for my nephews comments at times too. At least there's somewhat of a balance with that. Other than that, no. My brother has tunnel vision and at the end of the tunnel is his gf. He knows this, when they fight he has made the comment more than once that he is dragging his son along in his cesspool of codependence of her and her children. He IS aware.  

My mother has a similar obsession that I found very disturbing as a child and teenager. I clearly remember two times that a friend had given me something to eat. My mother's reaction was "Who gave it to you? Perhaps they are trying to poison you? I know about these things, you don't, you're naive!" This totally ruined my mood and to this day the word 'poison' triggers negative feelings inside of me all related to these two events.

I'm sorry this happened to you Kwamina. That's terrible. I totally get how these comments stick.  

I am glad you were able to not take what your mother said personally. Was this the only time you felt like she was 'using' you as her therapist? Do you feel like your mother has over the years always treated you more like a personal therapist than as a daughter?

You're right, I didn't take it personally. I struggled with having no reaction at first, as if this should have hurt me and why didn't I have feelings surrounding this? I do, it's just that the old me would have been really hurt; today I'm struggling with there is something really wrong with my mom and I want to love her because she didn't cause this and having a right to be angry with everything that happened to my brother and I as kids. And her not seeing what she is doing to my nephew, continuing the cycle. I've pointed these things out and she did think about it because she asked "do you really think he (my nephew) gets this from me?" I responded with a resounding YES.

And yes, she has used me as her "therapist" all my life. Sharing her hurt from breakups with these married men when I was way too young to understand. I was always in her corner, of course it was hard to see my mom hurting. The last married man she was involved with was when I was in my teens, he passed away from a heart attack, watching her grieve this was awful. I felt completely helpless. She took me with her to the funeral home at a time she didn't think his wife would be there to see him. I waited in the car.

She also did this for years with her current husband, the only long term relationship and marriage she's ever had. He took her name off their house because of the debt she incurred "helping" my brother while he was drinking and using drugs. She was afraid the creditors would take the house... he knew nothing of her debt until she told him. She would cry to me about how he's treating her so bad, it would upset me and I told her to leave him so many times until I started to see what was really going on. I finally told her when she shared this it upset me, stop telling me this stuff. Every time she did this afterwards I told her "that's life with your husband." Stay or leave, your choice, leave me out of it.