Got sucked in... opened up and shared my feelings... didn't go well... not good

[formflier]

So... .my wife and her changing plans.

She wanted to send youngest two over to her parents... 8 hours away for a week... and two year old would not be here on her bday... this coming week.

actually got a couple days heads up.

This morning I made her an offer... .IF it was a big deal to her and she wanted me to let them go without a talk... .I could do that... .OR... .if this was an idea she was working through... I would be happy to to work through it... .talk about it with her.

Things were great last week... .so I was trying to show goodwill... build momentum in a good way.

Of course... she doesn't give me a clear answer.  But... .starts asking me questions and we start talking about options.

So... .she wants to talk through it... .?       I guess.

She asks about my feelings about my daughters birthday (2yr old) and I start telling her how much I have enjoyed making plans with her, how special the little one is.   Note:  I'm assuming this is gesture of goodwill on her part and we are going to have a heart to heart... share feelings... .

She sort of interrupts me and says... ."you have no idea how it feels to get docked... .to not get credit for all those years of missed things"

She is not dysreg... .loud... .it was odd.  So... .I asked who was docking her... .I didn't understand.

Then... .it hit the fan.

YOU ARE!

Here is the problem... .for me... .my defenses were totally down... I was open... vulnerable... .

I tried to recover... .said something about wanting to continue talking about my precious daughter and how I felt... .I started getting emotional... .she storms into bathroom... .slams door. 

Says we'll talk when I learn to put the toilet seat down (that was actually funny... .probably kept me from getting worse)

She showers... .we have a tense conversation (now that I'm back on my game... .sort of)

And... .sort of agree that I will be ok with sending kids away and changing our plans (we've been in agreement about birthday plans for weeks) if the extra time is spent with us spending more time together... talking some some books we are reading together.  She agrees... .sort of.

We'll... .she walks out of conversation.  Announces birthday is now to entire family.  I asked about the cake as we had agreed I would go get one.  In huffy... mocking tone in front of everyone... ."if you want one... .go get it... "

So... .I did.  opening presents with the cake seemed to go ok.

Then... she hustles little ones out the door into oldest sons car... .and they are gone.  ?     

Me trying to ask for any clarification is shut down... huffed about... .in front of everyone. 

Well... .I retreat to room and try to calm down for few hours.

We have had scheduled date for several weeks at 6pm.  We jointly put it on master calendar in kitchen... .weeks ago.  fixing a prior complaint of hers about why she had hard time making time for me... or keeping her agreements.  We have been regularly talking about this date for weeks since then.

So... I get ready... .come down with time to spare.  She immediately b___es about I should have reminded her... .she needs 15 minutes to get ready.  I know this... which is why I came down early... we have plenty of time.

now she says she never wanted to go... .why would I want her there (a couples event this evening). 

I want to spend time with you was the answer I gave her.

So... she sits and does facebook... .not speaking to me for 10 minutes.

Then goes and gets ready.

Now we are leaving... late.  I try to move the seat back in my daughters truck... and cut my finger... .horribly... .on something in a bunch of junk she had in back seat.  Blood spewing... dripping.

Wife yells at me to not get it on my clothes... .

I'm rinsing finger and notice cut is under nail as well... .no chance fixing this at home.

Wife and daughter trying to figure out what cut me in truck... .I get in other vehicle and go to  clinic... 5 minutes away.

text wife while there about what I'm doing... eta.  No response.

I get back home an hour later... .hand in bandage and splint.  She and another daughter are gone.  I asked rest of family where they were... .nobody knew... just that they had left.

I text and call.  Ask her to call asap.  She texts back that she and that daughter are at movies she will be home at 930pm and wants to go on a run with me... .  

Says phone low and now her phone is shut off. 

Not one person in my family has asked if I am ok...

The youngest two kids are gone... .and I'm now alone in my room.  My wife is out with our daughter on "our" date night.

I honestly don't know if I can keep this up. 

She asked about my feelings for my daughter... .I was so happy... .so glad to talk about that.  I guess I just cant be vulnerable with her... .

:'( :'(

[formflier]

 

So... .question for the guys that have been doing this a while... .are you able to be emotionally open with your SO... .sometimes... .or do you cross that off list.

If you are... .how do you protect yourself... .?

[Riverrat]

Are you OK? Sounds like it was a serious cut! Splint too?

Serious talks never seem to go well for me either. Perhaps their thoughts just don't form fast enough, or they just stick to their opinion, so it's useless to try to get serious answers.

I keep telling myself that "feelings are facts" so they really won't see a second opinion, or an alternative way to do something. I also seldom share my feelings toward SO as she seems overwhelmed by this. She has even stated she doesn't need to know how I feel. Which I find sad.

For now at least, I just don't go there with her.

Hope you're felling ok, fingerwise at least!

[vortex of confusion]

So... .question for the guys that have been doing this a while... .are you able to be emotionally open with your SO... .sometimes... .or do you cross that off list.

If you are... .how do you protect yourself... .?

I have not figured out how to be emotionally open with my SO. I haven't crossed it off the list completely. People keep telling me that I need to be more vulnerable and open with my SO. When I try that, it tends to have a similar ending. Last night, I told him I was fed up and he interrupted me and yelled at me and asked me if I wanted him to move out. Not sure how it went from me being fed up and frustrated to him asking me if I wanted to move out.     

The only way to protect myself is to NOT be vulnerable and open. I have to keep the tools in mind. At one point in the conversation last night, "do not JADE and be quiet" kept running through my head.

[formflier]

Are you OK? Sounds like it was a serious cut! Splint too?

Yeah... .bad cut... .I'll survive.  Yep... splint on finger... .they said more to protect cut.  Nothing broken. 


VOC,

I am sadly at the conclusion right now... .that the downside of being open and vulnerable... .is too dangerous.  Yet... .have no interest in an emotionless marriage.  Zero... .

I mean... .she asked me... .what could be wrong about being open about my feelings for that... .?  

[Cole]

FF,

Sorry for what you had to go through.

Mine acts the same way at times, and I have to say I am getting tired of being embarrassed when she acts out in front of others.

We had a date night set up several weeks ago. She went uot of town to her parents. So, we moved it to the next week and she did the same thing. Yet, she claims I never make time for her. Passive-aggressive behavior goes hand in hand with BPD. They ask our opinions then act as if we are forcing our will on them. 

My wife accuses me of being emotionally shut down. Of course I am. If I let my guard down I get hammered. So, we are in a very emotionless marriage with little intimacy. Sometimes I wonder why I stay.

[formflier]

We need to start a thread on how to confront... .deal with... .whatever the passive aggressive stuff... .

[Michelle27]

So... .question for the guys that have been doing this a while... .are you able to be emotionally open with your SO... .sometimes... .or do you cross that off list.

If you are... .how do you protect yourself... .?

I haven't read the replies after this one, but I will... .this just resonated with me huge.  My H has decided to finally get help (although it's debatable if this is his decision or due to my boundary that I will no longer continue in the marriage unless he pursues help).  I've made the commitment to stay for a period of time but can't/won't commit to staying indefinitely because I will no longer put up with rages in my presence and have made it clear that he can dysregulate but will need to leave our home to calm down when he's in that state.  I am working on my own stuff in the meantime (codependency, RA, PTSD like symptoms).  His request to me while all of this goes on and we wait for his referral to a psychiatrist to come through as well as an intake appointment with Mental Health is to be emotionally open with him.  HUH?  When he asked me to do this I looked at him and said, "let me tell you a story.  There's a lion stalking and hunting a herd of elk and slowly picking off the members one by one.  I am one of the elk.  At one point, I'm the only one left.  You, the lion, come to me and say, 'come here.  Let me console you on the loss of your family'.  I am seriously supposed to be vulnerable and open emotionally with the person who causes me the most pain?"  It took him a minute, but he understood.  It's going to take a very long time of consistent behaviors and efforts on his side before I can let down that wall and be emotionally available to him.  I don't even know if I will ever get to that point after so much pain has been caused.

[workinprogress]

So... .question for the guys that have been doing this a while... .are you able to be emotionally open with your SO... .sometimes... .or do you cross that off list.

If you are... .how do you protect yourself... .?

My wife can't handle it at all when I try to be emotionally open and vulnerable with her.  I have given up on it.  It makes for a lonely marriage.

[workinprogress]

So... .question for the guys that have been doing this a while... .are you able to be emotionally open with your SO... .sometimes... .or do you cross that off list.

If you are... .how do you protect yourself... .?

My wife can't handle it at all when I try to be emotionally open and vulnerable with her.  I have given up on it.  It makes for a lonely marriage.

Oh, and it makes it very hard for me to be open when she decides to recycle me at random moments in time.

[Hmcbart]

from the sounds of it, she wasn't happy that you were doing something she felt she should do. Then when you told her your feelings about how much you enjoyed it, she got more upset.

The next part was the cut finger. She had gotten you to focus on her and then you got hurt and that went away.

My wife acts this way anytime I'm sick. I used to think she just didn't have a bedside manor but she treats the kids and others with compassion when they are sick. When it's me, I can only count on a feeling of contempt. It's like she's upset that I'm sick and can devote everything to her.

As far as the passive aggressive part... .I have been focusing on ignoring her. It's makes her more mad but after 19 years, I can't deal with anymore. I'm in the middle of passive aggressive silent treatment session as I type this. I stay downstairs away from her and spend time playing video games with the kids.

[formflier]

 

So... .I seem to be in this "pushing" mode against her behavior... .calling it out... .

I was really looking forward to us keeping our date tonight... .

I need "something to come true"... .

So... she got home an hour after she had texted she would be home and I went down to see her.

I asked her if she could still go out and get a bite.

She asked if I wanted to snuggle on couch... .I offered to after our date.

I expressed to her that it would help my day and my outlook for this to come true... I was not having a good day.  Mentioned it was on calendar... I had been looking forward to it.

She then said if I wanted a date I shouldn't have gotten mad earlier about my finger being cut.  I asked if she was asking about the emotions I felt when my finger was cut... .she said she didn't need to ask... it was obvious.  

"if you want to know what I felt... I will be happy to tell you... .I'm not demanding a chance... .it was not anger... . It is hurtful to me to have you state my emotions and be wrong... ."  I was calm but firm

There was some huffing but she backed down... .and... didn't ask about my emotions.

Finally agrees to go out.  I thanked her I mentioned again how much I wanted to spend time with her.

She asks me a question and I start to answer and out comes the phone and facebook.  "Can you please put away your phone so it can be "just us" tonight... I was looking forward to that... ."

w:  "you can ask me nicer"

I said same words in same way (don't know how to be nicer)

Lots of sighing and huffing... she put phone away.

Then... we proceeded to have 45 min to hour of pleasant conversation while driving and at dinner.

Got home... .and she went into little girls room to lay down (the ones she sent away) I asked if she was coming out to sit on couch after date.  She came out and sat on other couch... .not the one I was on... .stayed for a few minutes and then kinda stomped up stairs.

That's where I am heading next...

[gomez_addams]

We need to start a thread on how to confront... .deal with... .whatever the passive aggressive stuff... .

Yes!  Please!

[Loosestrife]

I get told all the time that I haven't said something in 'the right way' - it makes me feel like I'm at school! Lately I have tried to pick up my SO on how I am being spoken to, but all I get is a sarcastic 'well sorry I havent said it in the exact way you wanted me to!'. It's impossible to communicate my feelings.

[Notwendy]

I can relate to being told that I didn't say it the right way.

I have a thread about living in silence.

This came up the other day in T, and I expressed that when it came to communicating- the intimate personal feeling kind of communication- that I felt completely defeated because it seems that nothing I try works. 

I said it to my H and his reply was " that hurts my feelings!"

My only conclusion is that this kind of thing sends them into their heads with their own stuff, and so, they don't seem to hear or connect with what we are saying. I find that my H's impressions of me are more based on his inner feelings about me than the person in front of him. Growing up, I felt that I was invisible to my parents as it felt that who I was to them was how they painted me... .or how I pretended to be to keep them happy.

That's probably a key point here for someone with BPD. If you spend so much of your life pretending to be what you think others should see you as, and you have no real sense of an inner true self, then can you connect to someone's inner self when they reveal it to you? I don't know the answer but it makes some sense to me.

[Notwendy]

I'm not sure what she means by this:

"."you have no idea how it feels to get docked... .to not get credit for all those years of missed things"

She is not dysreg... .loud... .it was odd.  So... .I asked who was docking her... .I didn't understand.

Then... .it hit the fan.

YOU ARE!"

However, this may be telling you something about a resentment or miscomunication that she is reacting to.

[Cole]

Plenty here about miscommunication and not saying something the right way. It is not that we do not say it the right way, but that they misinterpret what we are saying. I have said before that dealing with my wife is like speaking English to someone who only understands Spanish and is trying to interpret it using a Swedish to German dictionary.

FF, you were mad you hurt your finger. I would be, too. I also know that if this happened to me, in my wife's twisted reality I would be mad at her because it is somehow her fault. I was annoyed a couple weeks ago because a bolt broke on the tractor plow and I could not clear the drive. She got all upset and thought I was mad at her because if she had got the 4x4 I wanted her to get instead of a sedan I would not have to plow to begin with.

In her mind everything is her fault and therefore if I am mad, I must be mad at her. Is it possible this is what is going on with your wife?   

[Notwendy]

Cole, that sounds just like I feel when talking to my H. I don't know what language he speaks. I feel as if whatever comes out of my mouth is completely twisted when he "hears" it. However, his dictionary only translates into a few phrases: "she says I'm defective, worthless, rejected... ."

I think one thing that attracted my H to me was that I was open with my feelings. He says he can tell when I am being quiet or guarded. However, when I do speak my feelings it doesn't go very well. It feels as if my being vulnerable is a signal to him to go for the attack. I wonder if he likes my being vulnerable because he knows exactly where I am emotionally instead of wondering. The last time I found myself crying in the midst of one of his rages, he just went on verbal attack even more. That was a while ago. I think he was aware of it, as well as aware that I don't want that to happen again.

Sometimes I am not so nice. It gets to me. I have told him about the translator he has in his mind and the fact that I think his father's verbal abuse is the reason for it. His response to that is " I'm defective". I've told him that I wish he could get around that tape in his mind that plays this when I talk to him.

[Cole]

Notwendy,

It has come up in many threads lately that pwBPD have low self esteem, feelings of worthlessness and core shame issues. And yes, they misinterpret everything we say as somehow being an attack on them.

Said by NON: I had a hard day at work.

Heard by pwBPD: You wanted children and I have to work my butt off to feed them.

Said by NON: I miss my grandmother.

Heard by pwBPD: If it wasn't for you, I could have spent more time with her before she died.   

In neither case does the NON mean anything more than what was stated, but the pwBPD hears an attack on them. In my wife's case, I think it is because of all the hateful things her mother said to her as she was growing up; she was blamed for anything and everything, so now she assumes that if it is wrong, somehow she had something to do with it.       

[formflier]

I said it to my H and his reply was " that hurts my feelings!"

Has this ever happened after he asked you to express your feelings to him? 

This... .is what I think got me to the vulnerable point... .and it hurt worse than if she would have just said it out of the blue.

I actually get it... .that if I walked up to her and started yammering away about my feelings... .and she wasn't ready... .I could see how this could hurt her feelings... .

Of course... .that is from my point of view... .

[formflier]

I'm not sure what she means by this:

"."you have no idea how it feels to get docked... .to not get credit for all those years of missed things"

She is not dysreg... .loud... .it was odd.  So... .I asked who was docking her... .I didn't understand.

Then... .it hit the fan.

YOU ARE!"

However, this may be telling you something about a resentment or miscomunication that she is reacting to.

This is where it went wrong... .before this I thought I was a hero for what was going on that morning.  Snuggling... .sharing... .top notch stuff.  Thought the kid thing was handled.

This has something to do with our Navy career.  I was home for all the births... but I missed birthdays and other special days.  It got better in the later part of my career.

Lot of guesswork on my part on the above explanation.

I'm not going to drop understanding this... or getting some sort of explanation about how this is/was triggering.

I'm not going to live in fear or "monitor" speaking lovingly about how I care for my children and how special they are to me.  Not going to happen.

Especially when asked in a loving and nice way.  If it was in the middle of an argument... .I would put off a response until later.

Sigh... .

[Cole]

I said it to my H and his reply was " that hurts my feelings!"

Has this ever happened after he asked you to express your feelings to him? 

This... .is what I think got me to the vulnerable point... .and it hurt worse than if she would have just said it out of the blue.

I actually get it... .that if I walked up to her and started yammering away about my feelings... .and she wasn't ready... .I could see how this could hurt her feelings... .

Of course... .that is from my point of view... .

We need to keep in mind that any negative feelings we express will be interpreted by them as an attack, because in their mind, it is always somehow their fault. I think that is why they go on the attack when we open up- it is self defense to them.

[Cole]

I'm not sure what she means by this:

"."you have no idea how it feels to get docked... .to not get credit for all those years of missed things"

She is not dysreg... .loud... .it was odd.  So... .I asked who was docking her... .I didn't understand.

Then... .it hit the fan.

YOU ARE!"

However, this may be telling you something about a resentment or miscomunication that she is reacting to.

This is where it went wrong... .before this I thought I was a hero for what was going on that morning.  Snuggling... .sharing... .top notch stuff.  Thought the kid thing was handled.

This has something to do with our Navy career.  I was home for all the births... but I missed birthdays and other special days.  It got better in the later part of my career.

Lot of guesswork on my part on the above explanation.

I'm not going to drop understanding this... or getting some sort of explanation about how this is/was triggering.

I'm not going to live in fear or "monitor" speaking lovingly about how I care for my children and how special they are to me.  Not going to happen.

Especially when asked in a loving and nice way.  If it was in the middle of an argument... .I would put off a response until later.

Sigh... .

Sounds like the passive aggressive stuff that came up last night. Is she somehow getting back at you for the birthdays you missed? She may not even realize this is why she is doing it. 

[formflier]

In her mind everything is her fault and therefore if I am mad, I must be mad at her. Is it possible this is what is going on with your wife?   

This is common thread... where she alleges I have different emotions... .

Usually... .I am emotional... .and she puts a wrong... .or opposite label on it.

But... .now that you mention it... .more often than not she claims I am mad.

However... .she will also say things like.  I do xyz because you like it and it helps you... .(This would be first time mentioned to me... .and I hate what she does and it bugs me.

Sometimes she will allege I am happy... .and I am anything but... .this is not common... but does happen.

So... the finger thing.  I would describe my reaction as more terrified... .scared... than anger.  I tend to pass out with blood and stuff... .so... .I had visions of blood spurting on my nice clothes... .me passing out... .who knows what was going to happen to my finger.

Can I certify that there were no angry feelings ... .no... .but those flashed through in more of a "how stupid could I bed... ."  mad I myself kinda thing.  True... daughter should keep junk out of truck... but... .I saw it... .and should have been more careful.

[formflier]

We need to keep in mind that any negative feelings we express will be interpreted by them as an attack, because in their mind, it is always somehow their fault. I think that is why they go on the attack when we open up- it is self defense to them.

Totally get this... .and I'm aware that saying negative things is minefield.


However... .lovely morning together... she asks about my daughter... my feelings... I start telling her.

I can guarantee there was nothing negative in my voice... thoughts... body language.  Zero.  She's two... .is still cute when messing things up.

We have been having consistent... positive conversations about her for weeks... .

[Cole]

But... .now that you mention it... .more often than not she claims I am mad.

I have somewhat the same issue. I tend to be cool and calm, not emotional. So, if I am not showing an emotion, she makes one up, usually anger. Then assumes the anger is toward her. And somehow links herself in as the cause. then indirectly punishes me for it 2 years later. Then, I get mad!  

[Cole]

Totally get this... .and I'm aware that saying negative things is minefield.

FF, you don't have to say anything negative. They just have to interpret it as such. That is the hard part to deal with.

Happy birthday to your 2 year old! 

[123Phoebe]

In her mind everything is her fault and therefore if I am mad, I must be mad at her. Is it possible this is what is going on with your wife?  

This is common thread... where she alleges I have different emotions... .

Usually... .I am emotional... .and she puts a wrong... .or opposite label on it.

But... .now that you mention it... .more often than not she claims I am mad.

Formflier, is there any chance that you're having trouble finding your anger?  I'd be pissed off if my guy left and went to movies while I was at clinic with bloody finger.  I would not be in any mood for a date night after that.  Once the initial anger response calmed down, then the other feelings could and would surface. But denying my anger is akin to invalidating myself and not being totally honest with him.  

I've found that I can work through the "grieving process" in small increments = situations.  Kinda like pruning the trees, so that I can see the forest... .

[gomez_addams]

FF, you were mad you hurt your finger. I would be, too. I also know that if this happened to me, in my wife's twisted reality I would be mad at her because it is somehow her fault. I was annoyed a couple weeks ago because a bolt broke on the tractor plow and I could not clear the drive. She got all upset and thought I was mad at her because if she had got the 4x4 I wanted her to get instead of a sedan I would not have to plow to begin with.

In her mind everything is her fault and therefore if I am mad, I must be mad at her. Is it possible this is what is going on with your wife? 

I hurt my back the other day, and my uBPDw told me she was sorry.  I realized that the only time she says that word sincerely is when I'm sick, injured, or had a bad day at work. 

It's almost as if it's safe to say sorry when it has nothing to do with her.  The hurtful stuff she says?  She'll shift the blame to me, deny she ever said it, or minimize it into something not worth apologizing.

Gomez

[formflier]

 

So... what are the chances we would be better off actually telling them all the negative stuff?  

For instance... .if we actually told them we are mad and they are stupid... .would they interpret we are happy with them?

Or... .do we just need to accept that they will have a negative... .toxic... .outlook and will reject happy thoughts...

[Cole]

For instance... .if we actually told them we are mad and they are stupid... .would they interpret we are happy with them?

FF, you try it first and let me know how it works!

In my case, she would love it because it validates her feelings of inadequacy and lack of self worth. And you just hit on something. Maybe she wants me to be mad at her so as to get that validation.      

[123Phoebe]

So... what are the chances we would be better off actually telling them all the negative stuff?  

For instance... .if we actually told them we are mad and they are stupid... .would they interpret we are happy with them?

Or... .do we just need to accept that they will have a negative... .toxic... .outlook and will reject happy thoughts...

They're going to interpret things however they want to.  We interpret things our own way, too.  If we're honest with our feelings, at least we all have something to work with and know where each other stand at any given time.  :)oesn't mean we/they can't or don't have the capacity to move closer to the middle ground.

[formflier]

Formflier, is there any chance that you're having trouble finding your anger?  I'd be pissed off if my guy left and went to movies while I was at clinic with bloody finger.  I would not be in any mood for a date night after that.  Once the initial anger response calmed down, then the other feelings could and would surface. But denying my anger is akin to invalidating myself and not being totally honest with him.  

I've found that I can work through the "grieving process" in small increments = situations.  Kinda like pruning the trees, so that I can see the forest... .

I don't thing so... .because I was angry about that... .her going to movies.  I didn't tell her that... .she didn't allege differently.

My anger motivated me to keep going.  I was going to force the issue.  She was either going to go with me... .or back out on her commitment... .and actually say that.  She claims she "never" backs out... .

And... .to her credit... .she didn't last night... although I had to corner her.

And... .to be honest... .I did feel better after the date.  It really was a pleasant conversation... .once she got done huffing and sighing about putting away the phone with facebook on it.

I was clear with her that I'm fine to also go out on dates where she uses her phone... stares at facebook and multi-tasks while having conversation.  It shouldn't always be her way... or my way... .that I was open to compromise.

Back to anger.  The only time I expressed anger to her yesterday is when she started explaining that she uses tactics on me that she uses on the children to divert the conversation... or something like that.  My next sentence to her was that makes me very angry... .my voice was loud... .I said we should each be polite and treat each other as adults.  She disagrees... .I reiterated my anger and that it was directed at her and tactics to treat me like she does the kids.

So... .there are times when I am angry at her... .and remove all doubt from her mind.

Dunno... .maybe I should do that more... .?

[123Phoebe]

So... .there are times when I am angry at her... .and remove all doubt from her mind.

Dunno... .maybe I should do that more... .?

Not so much angry at her... .  Angry about a situation and how you see it, how you feel about it, the feelings it brings up in you... .

[formflier]

So... .there are times when I am angry at her... .and remove all doubt from her mind.

Dunno... .maybe I should do that more... .?

Not so much angry at her... .  Angry about a situation and how you see it, how you feel about it, the feelings it brings up in you... .

Hmm... .I see... .I do that... .but much less than saying "what you just did made me angry"

Usually we see situations so much differently that she wants to argue about my anger or feelings being wrong... or that I am telling her that her feelings are wrong.

I constantly tell her... her feelings are fine... mine are fine... they are just different... there is no right or wrong.  She does not agree... usually

[123Phoebe]

So... .there are times when I am angry at her... .and remove all doubt from her mind.

Dunno... .maybe I should do that more... .?

Not so much angry at her... . Angry about a situation and how you see it, how you feel about it, the feelings it brings up in you... .

Hmm... .I see... .I do that... .but much less than saying "what you just did made me angry"

Usually we see situations so much differently that she wants to argue about my anger or feelings being wrong... or that I am telling her that her feelings are wrong.

I constantly tell her... her feelings are fine... mine are fine... they are just different... there is no right or wrong.  She does not agree... usually

But are you validating them or pointing out the difference?

[Oooohm]

My wife expects me to be "The rock". Almost like if I want to talk about MY feelings she acts like there is something wrong with me. I need to "lead by example" to keep her "stable". If I break our unspoken contract she flies of the handle into a rage. So I play the role... .I am very good at it... .I still don't fully comprehend why I am in it. 

No... .you don't get your emotional needs met... .ever. I guess I'm just happy not to have to deal with the "Blow ups" anymore. There is no doubt in my mind it takes a toll on you... .  Physically and mentally. I feel like I'm giving up a decade of my lifespan to stay... .

[vortex of confusion]

Hmm... .I see... .I do that... .but much less than saying "what you just did made me angry"

Usually we see situations so much differently that she wants to argue about my anger or feelings being wrong... or that I am telling her that her feelings are wrong.

I constantly tell her... her feelings are fine... mine are fine... they are just different... there is no right or wrong.  She does not agree... usually

Are you ever angry AT her?

I ask this because there are times when I am absolutely, positively angry AT my husband. I see a lot of people on here talking about being angry about a situation. I see a lot of people denying that they are angry at the person. It seems a bit delusional for me to continually deny that I am angry at my husband. I still haven't worked up the nerve to tell him that directly. I am afraid of the possible repercussions.

[Notwendy]

Has anyone ever just cried and sobbed? I remember doing this- without understanding what was going on. It was crying from a place of utter despair. My H hated that. I told him that the time he should be worrying is when the tears stopped, because if I didn't care enough to cry and show my feelings, that meant I didn't care at all.

The tears have stopped from time to time, because I just don't want to care enough to cry. I recall one time though, when I just got hysterical. It was when we were out of town and met up with an old childhood friend, someone I grew up with like a brother, never dated or wanted to. H went into an awful jealous rage over it. This was one time where I was expressing real joy at seeing an old friend after a long time, and that joy triggered him. It seems that when I do express joy over something that isn't about him, he is triggered.

When we were alone ( of course I would be composed if we were not) and I just lost it, sobbed for the longest time crying about how I feel that I can't  be happy in front of him. It was out of grief. This was a precious moment to me, something that gave me great joy, to see someone I have rarely seen since we were kids, and he had to do this. I wished that I had gone alone. Sobbed to the point that it actually scared him, snapped him out of his crazy inner world. However, if I just cry, it doesn't do this. This was intense, but it was real.

[Cole]

Hmm... .I see... .I do that... .but much less than saying "what you just did made me angry"

Usually we see situations so much differently that she wants to argue about my anger or feelings being wrong... or that I am telling her that her feelings are wrong.

I constantly tell her... her feelings are fine... mine are fine... they are just different... there is no right or wrong.  She does not agree... usually

Are you ever angry AT her?

I ask this because there are times when I am absolutely, positively angry AT my husband. I see a lot of people on here talking about being angry about a situation. I see a lot of people denying that they are angry at the person. It seems a bit delusional for me to continually deny that I am angry at my husband. I still haven't worked up the nerve to tell him that directly. I am afraid of the possible repercussions.

It is OK to be angry AT them. If Mahatma Gandhi had been married to a pwBPD, he would have blown his fuse more than once also.

The first question is why do they make us mad? Is it intentional? A passive aggressive act? Or just plain irritation at the messed up way they live? Based on a conversation on this thread this morning, I have a theory my wife makes me mad on purpose to validate her feelings of inadequacy and low self worth. It is hard to justify core shame when no one is supporting it. 

The second question is what do we do with that anger? Do we show it and disregulate them, which just escalates the whole problem? Do we stay silent? Not a healthy option, either.

[sweetheart]

ff at the point where you believe your wife is not dysregulated is the point of "critical mass" for me in this whole episode. That your wife had decided to take pack your two small children off to family without much warning would to me start alarm bells ringing.

How could you have done things differently at this particular point?

Can you see a pattern for how your wife struggles to deal with family events despite the best of plans?

Is there a way you could help her a bit more before an event as a way of circumventing possible dysregulation, or is there a way that you could begin to anticipate that dysregulation is likely to occur for her and be better prepared yourself?



@cole There is a third way... .and for me it is to use mindfulness. I didn't know this was what I was doing but it really works. It doesn't mean never addressing important issues in your relationship, it just means knowing/realising that you can wait, that you don't have to react because you have been triggered. For me it is about stepping away, this can be both physical and emotional, and choosing not to engage.  

What kick started this process for me was when I stopped JADEing, it was like this one thing set up a chain reaction for me to step away from the dysfunction and my part in it. It was my  moment for sure.

For me my h engenders his negativity in me because this is the essence of the illness. It is at it's most simple a reenactment of his FOO issues over and over again. When I step into the dysfunctional dynamic as it occurs I reinforce the trauma and invalidate him everytime.

[vortex of confusion]

The first question is why do they make us mad? Is it intentional? A passive aggressive act? Or just plain irritation at the messed up way they live? Based on a conversation on this thread this morning, I have a theory my wife makes me mad on purpose to validate her feelings of inadequacy and low self worth. It is hard to justify core shame when no one is supporting it. 

Think about your question "why do they make us mad"? I have been coming to an awareness that saying that somebody makes me mad is putting them in the position of being responsible for MY feelings. What would happen if I rephrased it as I got mad because of something that somebody else did? It is a very subtle nuance but I have found it helpful for me to say, "I am mad because. . ." I didn't really make this connection until I started noticing it in the kids. The older one would say something ugly and the little one would react and say, "She made me do it." No, nobody MADE you do anything. Yes, you are mad at your sister. She did not MAKE you do anything. Likewise, if I get mad at something my husband does, he did MAKE me get mad. Something he did triggered something in me and that something in me is what made me angry. I am still not sure how to apply this on a practical level as it is still at the level of awareness.

The second question is what do we do with that anger? Do we show it and disregulate them, which just escalates the whole problem? Do we stay silent? Not a healthy option, either.

That is the million dollar question! What do I do with that anger? I am trying to figure out how to fully separate my feelings from my actions. I can be angry without acting on that anger. If I am angry at him for something, I am trying to figure out how much of that anger is on me (most of it) and how much of it is on him. If I didn't have buttons that he could push, then it would become a non-issue. I can speak of all of this on a theoretical level but suck at actually applying it and figuring out how NOT to let my buttons get pushed.

[sweetheart]

VOC you make a really important distinction about someone making you made or being emotionally triggered by something.

Most of my triggers with my h centre around my relationship with my father. Once I realised this, and it took a whole lot of JADE to get to that realisation, it was easier to walk away and not react whilst triggered.

The key is knowing the trigger.

[Notwendy]

"For me my h engenders his negativity in me because this is the essence of the illness. It is at it's most simple a reenactment of his FOO issues over and over again. When I step into the dysfunctional dynamic as it occurs I reinforce the trauma and invalidate him everytime."

This is so true and thanks for this insight. I see where if I step into this, I become his father, or his stoic unemotional mother in the drama of his trauma. Ironically, it was through being codependent that I actually acted like them. His mother who is a co-dependent caretaker, and his critical dad when I was resentful. It's almost as if there was some force in him to wish me into these roles.

So, my own stuff fit is well. The conditional love I got for trying to keep everyone happy. I realized I was triggered when my own FOO issues were triggered. It has helped to work on those.

[formflier]

That your wife had decided to take pack your two small children off to family without much warning would to me start alarm bells ringing.

How could you have done things differently at this particular point?

Can you see a pattern for how your wife struggles to deal with family events despite the best of plans?

Even after they are gone... .she has still not taken ownership for them being gone... .she has not clearly said... "I want them to go this week... ."

I asked her how she felt... .and had to read between the lines to figure it out.  Challenged it a couple times to try to gain clarity... .nope.

I clearly said... ."If it is up to me... I do not want them gone this coming week... .I would pick 3 weeks from now to send them.  Our kids will be on spring break then and we can do stuff with the older kids without the younger ones running around."  She didn't say she didn't like that idea... but pointed out numerous problems with it... .and dismissed what I saw as advantages.  Yet... .one of the points of sending the young ones away is so we can do stuff with older kids... ."they have needs too!"     

The reason she brought this up is because her parents asked... .no plan... .no notice... .  At Christmas they said they would be down in couple weeks for visit.  Didn't happen.  Out of nowhere they show up at sisters house and announce to wife they can help her by taking the kids off her hands... ."since they are so close... "

This is typical FOO behavior... .so... .she has learned it well.  FOO gets what they want... .when they want... .I am devil to resist any suggestion. 

This includes wife "making them happy"... by handing over $10k of the money she took out when she "unjointed" our finances.

VOC,

Interesting you have a roof story in one of your threads.  One of my wifes reasons for taking the money out was to get a roof... .because she had to be able to write a check for roof... .yet... .she wrote a check to transfer the money out... .hmmm

I would bring home contracts for roofers... .none of those were any good.  I would get up there to start working... .she would cuss me (literally) for not working other places... .garage... .car... .etc etc. 

That was a bad time... .

Even with yesterdays drama... .things are much... much better.

ff

Sigh... .

[Grey Kitty]

I'm late to this thread, ff... .and I'm looking at it from a big picture perspective.

You and your wife have a household of 8 kids, and there are lots of complications to manage the lives of them. Lots of choices, lots of options.

Many of your worst fights are about what the kids are doing, or how they are disciplined, etc.

I think there is a large ongoing control battle here going on between the two of you.

Your wife thinks that this is her domain, and she gets to decide what happens.

You think that as a father, the head of the household, you have a right to be involved, and that you know better than she does in many cases.

You think that when you and she have a difference of opinion about how to do things, you will have a logical discussion with her, find a good compromise and resolve it gracefully, with both of you living up to the 'agreed' solution.

(That last part seems to go well in about 0.3% of conflicts you've mentioned!)

[formflier]

 

Grey,

Yes... you pretty much have it. 

I'm not a sperm donor and a finance guy for her to raise a family... .how she sees fit.

Not going to happen.

She matters... .as do I. 

I don't want to spreadsheet it out to 50%... .but... .one way or another we will learn to compromise... most agreements will be kept.

It is actually getting better... .looking back over time... .but it still hurts to be open... .and to get knifed in the heart.

More later... .how goes boat projects?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I'm working more on accepting that low-grade depression and procrastination go together for me... .interspersed with times where I'm feeling the loss. That is slowing down boat progress. A lot. I was hit harder than I realized when my wife took her stuff off the boat and headed out of town. Weather should improve tomorrow or the next day; I hope my motivation comes along for more than a day with it.

OK, back to you... .confession time--I was putting that case out there almost as a leading question... .and since you did bite, here's what I'm thinking... .time for more radical acceptance.

The control battle exists, and pretending it isn't there is just gonna make a mess for you.

So... .whenever she seems to be trying to go off and do something you aren't certain of, or disagree with... .like sending your youngest kids off with her FOO for a couple weeks... .

Acknowledge that as soon as you express your opinion, or likely even ask her for details about what she's thinking of doing it will be invalidating and challenging to her. Don't expect an easy or reasonable conversation with her about it.

Instead, pause and think about the tools and lessons... .figure out what the best way to raise an issue with her is. And think about whether you really need to raise the issue at all or not. There is a lot to be said for choosing your battles.

The way you described this topic, I saw a lot of signs where you were pushing your wife in areas that (looking back) were difficult areas... .were unhappy/displeased/impatient about things... .even getting cues that she wasn't very comfortable... .and then you sounded surprised that she reacted BADLY.

I agree that exactly HOW she reacted badly sounded like a big surprise and a legitimate one. That she reacted badly didn't surprise me at all.

[formflier]

The way you described this topic, I saw a lot of signs where you were pushing your wife in areas that (looking back) were difficult areas... .were unhappy/displeased/impatient about things... .even getting cues that she wasn't very comfortable... .and then you sounded surprised that she reacted BADLY.

I agree that exactly HOW she reacted badly sounded like a big surprise and a legitimate one. That she reacted badly didn't surprise me at all.

Yes... .is see this... .and some of this (on my part) is coming from an area of if "we" are going to be working on our marriage... .then... .sometimes she can be the one to tiptoe... .to bend... .if she is uncomfortable... .she can make a change to accommodate... .not me.

Did I deliberately think this through yesterday... .no... .but I have had those thoughts... .I'm sure it came through.

The only real surprise was how my talking about my feelings for our daughter... .triggered her.  After she asked.

I'm not going to let that drop... .not going to hammer away every day... .but... .if we don't get it sorted out by MC... .that will be big issue.

Being calm... .asking a partner to open up about feelings... .and then flipping out on them... .accusing them. 

How on earth could me loving my child invalidate my wife.  we've had those conversations before ... .similar... .and they have been fine.  Although her asking about my feelings was a bit different... .usually I offer thoughts on kids if we are talking.

[Grey Kitty]

Yes... .is see this... .and some of this (on my part) is coming from an area of if "we" are going to be working on our marriage... .then... .sometimes she can be the one to tiptoe... .to bend... .if she is uncomfortable... .she can make a change to accommodate... .not me.

If she is uncomfortable, she has to deal with it the best she can.

If her 'best' is half-dysregulated and aimed at you... .well... .you are gonna be uncomfortable yourself, and have to deal with that.

Keep working on yourself... .don't let your ideas of how your marriage "should" be blind you to how it actually is.

I think the best thing you can do here is work on mindfulness and self-awareness. As you said, you had thoughts and feelings yesterday and they came through... .and they triggered a reaction too. Your thoughts and feelings aren't wrong. The more you are aware of them when they are happening, the more choice you have to improve things all around.

How on earth could me loving my child invalidate my wife.  we've had those conversations before ... .similar... .and they have been fine.  Although her asking about my feelings was a bit different... .usually I offer thoughts on kids if we are talking.

Sometimes it isn't your job to understand that sort of crap. If it is really important to your wife, you will have a chance to understand it later and validate it. If it was a momentary weirdness... .you don't need to understand.

And you sure aren't going to stop loving your child, or stop expressing that you love your child!

[ColdEthyl]

Hi FF I'm going into this late, too. I just wanted to make a comment about how she would dysregulate over expressing your feelings for your child. It's simpler than you think.

1. Everyone and everything is competition, including the children and family pets.

2. pwBPD seem to see children as a literal extension of themselves, rather than as a whole different person.

I am really sorry no one even asked if you were ok. I know how that feels. Whenever I get hurt/sick, mentioning it makes my H angry, although he will whine about his ailments day in and out, and say with a straight face he never complains. I know for him it's not that he doesn't care, but because he cannot do anything about it, he feels helpless and makes him angry.

[Notwendy]

"How on earth could me loving my child invalidate my wife. "

That's exactly how my mother saw it.

[123Phoebe]

"How on earth could me loving my child invalidate my wife. "

That's exactly how my mother saw it.

Mine, too.  That is how deeply disordered they can be FF and it makes no sense to us.  My dad was a teacher, he helped me with homework from time to time.  To hear my mom to this day (if I didn't put the kibosh to it!), was that "he did my schoolwork for me and you would think that a person in education wouldn't do such a thing and would know better!"  I remember reading a really cool story and asking my dad to read it, knowing that he would appreciate the twist at the end.  ":)on't do her homework for her!" He read it anyway, we were laughing and having a great time discussing it until she came in and put the brakes on our good time.  That is what she's basing her-- his doing my schoolwork for me-- on.  

This stuff is serious, especially when children are involved.  It's not something you can simply discuss, get to the bottom of it in one conversation and have that be that.  

Boundaries are our best friends, truly.  We cannot change them or their way of thinking.  We have zero control over the behavior of others or how they react.  We have 100% control over ours, if we can find it within ourselves.

I spent a lot of time hoping other people would do the right thing, according to my beliefs and standards. I spent a lot of time feeling very disappointed.

It's up to me to live my life according to my beliefs and standards and that's not very easy either.

Life... .what a trip!

ps: How does your finger feel today?  Is it healing up alright?

[formflier]

 

We have our MC appointment next week.  Somehow... .I want to effectively bring up this incident.  Probably will start another post on it.

My thoughts are that I want to focus on understanding the "hurts" in her life... .but don't want them confused with me sharing my feelings... .especially when she has asked.

Yep... .this is minefield.

Should have my other post on this up at some point today.

FF

[cloudten]

So... .question for the guys that have been doing this a while... .are you able to be emotionally open with your SO... .sometimes... .or do you cross that off list.

If you are... .how do you protect yourself... .?

"let me tell you a story.  There's a lion stalking and hunting a herd of elk and slowly picking off the members one by one.  I am one of the elk.  At one point, I'm the only one left.  You, the lion, come to me and say, 'come here.  Let me console you on the loss of your family'.  I am seriously supposed to be vulnerable and open emotionally with the person who causes me the most pain?"  It took him a minute, but he understood.  It's going to take a very long time of consistent behaviors and efforts on his side before I can let down that wall and be emotionally available to him.  I don't even know if I will ever get to that point after so much pain has been caused.

Wow- love this analogy of the lion and the elk. I am so sorry you have symptoms of PTSD and such... .I have been there too. Every time we break up my hair falls out and I am thrust into a world of PTSD, panic attacks, and heartbreak.

People teach us how to treat them... .and how to treat ourselves. I have been taught that I can't trust him, and I have been taught that I can't be vulnerable. Even if I am vulnerable and it goes well, he will ALWAYS use it against me at a later point in time.

FF- the whole incident could be something out of my life except without the children. I feel for you!

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .