Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .

[vortex of confusion]

I wanted to continue this conversation because I am still trying to work things out in my own mind.

Before the last thread was locked, Grey Kitty said:

I think one of the biggest differences between support and enabling... .or perhaps a measure of codependence is how  aware of you are of your choices and compromises.

I think I am aware now. I still have a lot more waking up to do. In the past, I think I was mildly aware but would stuff the awareness for what I thought was the greater good. I am not sure how to articulate this. Before I found this site, I knew things were messed up but wasn't sure how and I wasn't sure what to do about it.

I am thinking about all of the people that find this site or read books and encounter the labels of enabler, rescuer, fixer, etc. and have a bad reaction to them, like I did. On some level, I think I knew what I was doing. On another level, I didn't see those things as bad. Not sure how to explain it.

Some examples of my line of thinking:

If my husband or kids want to do something that they value, I am going to find ways to help them do it. I have more resources than them so it makes sense to me to help them.

If somebody is drowning and I have a life preserver, it makes sense to throw it to them instead of watching them drown.

If I know how to fix something that somebody else doesn't, why wouldn't I help them fix it?

I know I am hung up on this a bit. I know that I am doing better at identifying enabling/rescusing/etc. versus supporting. Right now, this is a big issue for me because I am working on becoming un-enmeshed. And, I want to think about it and work on it for myself when things are good between us and I have a clearer head. I know that I tend to get sucked back in when things are going good. I am trying to prevent that and do some of this hard work on myself when I am not in a tizzy over something that he has done.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts, advice, or prodding!

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[Leaving]

Hi V,

Enablers nurture and give to broken people in an effort to get some positive outcome in return for their efforts. Maybe it's love, attention, sex, food, money, security, spouse, home, etc... .

I'm always checking my own behavior against what I know is enabling and what is just unconditional giving ( like when you helped the boy at the checkout and didn't expect anything in return for your giving).  For me, it just comes down to knowing whether I'm tolerating someone else's behavior simply because it's easier than dealing with the consequences of confronting the issue.   Granted, there are some behaviors that my husband does ( like wrecking the finances) that I must fix or else I am allowing him to sink me with the entire ship- hence, seems I'm always between a rock and hard place. I had a counselor once who told me to not to deal with my husband's irresponsible behaviors because I was enabling him.  However, she must have thought  I was rich and could afford cut-off fees, bounced check fees, etc... .  Even if I could afford them, I'm not about to let my finances get into worse shape just to teach him a lesson.  That seems a bit self defeating, eh?

If your husband is doing something that bothers you, hurts you and you feel like you're complying with something you don't agree with in order to avoid the consequences of confronting him, then maybe you are being an enabler/avoider.  If for example you believe that in order for you to live the happy life you desire and deserve that you need to leave your husband but stay because you fear being alone and a single mother, then, yes, you are putting an expectation on your tolerance - expecting him to stay.  That is the behavior of an enabler.  The problem is that resentments will quickly consume us ( enablers) when we keep tolerating things we don't approve while expecting a positive change in people.  Somewhere in the back of our mind, we keep expecting them to notice how we are compromising ourselves FOR THEM and we expect them to be grateful and change their ways. That rarely ever happens with addicts or other self absorbed people.

[vortex of confusion]

Enablers nurture and give to broken people in an effort to get some positive outcome in return for their efforts. Maybe it's love, attention, sex, food, money, security, spouse, home, etc... .

Hmmm. . .can a person be nurturing by nature without being an enabler? It is my nature to nurture. That is who I am. I am struggling with this notion that who I am is bad.

I'm always checking my own behavior against what I know is enabling and what is just unconditional giving ( like when you helped the boy at the checkout and didn't expect anything in return for your giving).  For me, it just comes down to knowing whether I'm tolerating someone else's behavior simply because it's easier than dealing with the consequences of confronting the issue.

This is another area for me to ponder. I don't feel like I have ever tolerated things with my husband because I didn't want to confront the issue. I feel like I have spent a lot of years trying to confront issues and bring them up with him. I have had a few blow ups over the years where I threw a heck of a fit to drive home the point that things are screwed up and something needs to be done. It seems like one of two things would happen. One is that he would tell me what I wanted to hear and do just enough to shut me up. OR, the other thing is that he would look at me like I was crazy and didn't know what I was talking about. Then I would question myself and find myself thinking, "Maybe I am crazy or demanding or something."

Granted, there are some behaviors that my husband does ( like wrecking the finances) that I must fix or else I am allowing him to sink me with the entire ship- hence, seems I'm always between a rock and hard place. I had a counselor once who told me to not to deal with my husband's irresponsible behaviors because I was enabling him.  However, she must have thought  I was rich and could afford cut-off fees, bounced check fees, etc... .  Even if I could afford them, I'm not about to let my finances get into worse shape just to teach him a lesson.  That seems a bit self defeating, eh?

I am right there with you on that. There are things that I refuse to let go because they would impact me and the kids negatively. Stuff that doesn't have any impact on me or the kids I can let go. There was a time. I don't remember how long ago it was. He would gripe at me about how I did his laundry. I tried to do it his way but it seemed like I couldn't get it right. I told him flat out, "Look, I tried to do it your way and there is no pleasing you. If you want your laundry done a certain way, then you do." I got him a laundry hamper for his clothes and he does his own laundry. If he wants me to wash any of his stuff, he can put it in the family hamper but he doesn't get to say a word about it if it isn't to his specifications. I have never had a problem telling him, "Hey, if you don't like how I am doing something, then do it yourself." He used to bug me about the finances but wouldn't do anything to help. He would call and ask me how much money we had left, blah, blah, blah. I told him, "Hey, if you want to know what is going on, then you need to help. You can go check the online account just as easily as I can." I pushed the issue and made him keep up with his own credit cards and stuff like that. I flat out quit paying his credit card bills and told him that he had to figure out what to do about them. He was able to consolidate them and get into a debt management program.

If your husband is doing something that bothers you, hurts you and you feel like you're complying with something you don't agree with in order to avoid the consequences of confronting him, then maybe you are being an enabler/avoider. 

Confronting him guarantees absolutely nothing. I have read story after story of people confronting their partners only to have their partners resort to the same old behavior. I feel like this is too focused on him and his behavior. If I have a need and know that he can't or won't meet that need, what is the point of confronting him or continually asking him to meet that need? To me, it makes more sense to find other ways of getting stuff done. I don't think that I should have to confront him with things that are related to me and my needs. Sure, I can let him know what those needs are and I can confront him if he is doing something that is a clear violation of my boundaries.

[vortex of confusion]

I just realized that I forgot to put a link to the original thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=275710.0;all

[OffRoad]

Some examples of my line of thinking:

If my husband or kids want to do something that they value, I am going to find ways to help them do it. I have more resources than them so it makes sense to me to help them.

If somebody is drowning and I have a life preserver, it makes sense to throw it to them instead of watching them drown.

If I know how to fix something that somebody else doesn't, why wouldn't I help them fix it?

In your examples, if your H or kids want to do something they value, they will value it more if they have some contribution to it. So if you help, that makes sense, but you do all the work for it, it doesn't. Example: if a BPD spouse wants a new car, and can't manage their money to buy the car and the non-BPD helps them set up a savings account and way to save, it's helping. If the Non-BPD just goes out and buys the car, that's not helping.

If someone is splashing around in the water and you throw them a life preserver, you may be rescuing them, or you may be voiding their treading water certification. Sometimes you have to figure out if they really need to be rescued, or maybe just need some encouragement.

If you know how to fix something and someone else doesn't, and you show them how to fix it themselves and let them do it, that's helping. If you do it for them, and they wanted to do it themselves, it isn't.

It seems to me that each circumstance would have to be weighed individually to determine if a non-BPDs behavior would be considered enabling or not. Which, of course, then means that a person could be an enabler, a non-enabler, or a sometimes enabler.

[123Phoebe]

Some examples of my line of thinking:

If my husband or kids want to do something that they value, I am going to find ways to help them do it. I have more resources than them so it makes sense to me to help them.

If somebody is drowning and I have a life preserver, it makes sense to throw it to them instead of watching them drown.

If I know how to fix something that somebody else doesn't, why wouldn't I help them fix it?

If you know how to fix something and someone else doesn't, and you show them how to fix it themselves and let them do it, that's helping. If you do it for them, and they wanted to do it themselves, it isn't.

Something I've had to keep in mind is: am I being asked for help or am I jumping into help without being asked?  What is my version of "help" compared to another's?

Here's an example of where I don't think I'm being a codependent/rescuer/enabler:

Had a few trees trimmed and liked the service.  Bf asked for name and phone number of company.  I gave it to him.  He has not called to have trees trimmed at his place.  "He" has mentioned that he needs to call them a few times, but as of now hasn't.

That's it, that's my story.

If I were acting from a codependent place, I'd take this situation on as my own.

"Have you called the tree service?"

"Why not?"

"Want me to call them for you?"

"When are you ever going to get the trees trimmed?  I called them, just out of curiosity, and they're pretty backed up... ."

"I was asking around and so and so really like the job XYZ company did; want their number, too?  They have a little more availability."

"I don't want to hear another word about your stupid trees if you're not going to do anything about it!"

"Have you called the tree service, yet?"

I realize when you live together it's a little different situation, but the same thing can be applied to many circumstances, i.e., taking something and running with it without being asked, thinking you're helping then getting mad when your help isn't appreciated.  Knowing how much happier they'd feel with this over and done with, out of the way.  It can take on a life of its own... .

Bf asked for number.  I gave it to him.  He'll call when he's ready, he's very capable.  The end.

[waverider]

Supporting is actively doing things so that a person can help themselves change

Enabling is doing it for them so they dont have to

eg

Supporting=teaching someone how to make bread so the don't starve. when you withdraw your help they have made progress by their own efforts.

Enabling=giving them bread so they dont have to learn to feed themselves. When you withdraw your action, nothing has changed.

Nothing changes without change, enabling prevents change.

Having said that you can't address everything at once or life will be endless conflict, so a degree of enabling is normal. The important thing is that you know and are making choices in ful knowledge of the consequence.

eg, if you enjoy "mothering' someone, and they like being mothered. Then it is ok to choose to do so, as it will not create resentment. Our job is not to  fix or train people it is to make sure we dont become miserable.

[Leaving]

Enablers nurture and give to broken people in an effort to get some positive outcome in return for their efforts. Maybe it's love, attention, sex, food, money, security, spouse, home, etc... .

Hmmm. . .can a person be nurturing by nature without being an enabler? It is my nature to nurture. That is who I am. I am struggling with this notion that who I am is bad.

I'm always checking my own behavior against what I know is enabling and what is just unconditional giving ( like when you helped the boy at the checkout and didn't expect anything in return for your giving).  For me, it just comes down to knowing whether I'm tolerating someone else's behavior simply because it's easier than dealing with the consequences of confronting the issue.

This is another area for me to ponder. I don't feel like I have ever tolerated things with my husband because I didn't want to confront the issue. I feel like I have spent a lot of years trying to confront issues and bring them up with him. I have had a few blow ups over the years where I threw a heck of a fit to drive home the point that things are screwed up and something needs to be done. It seems like one of two things would happen. One is that he would tell me what I wanted to hear and do just enough to shut me up. OR, the other thing is that he would look at me like I was crazy and didn't know what I was talking about. Then I would question myself and find myself thinking, "Maybe I am crazy or demanding or something."

Granted, there are some behaviors that my husband does ( like wrecking the finances) that I must fix or else I am allowing him to sink me with the entire ship- hence, seems I'm always between a rock and hard place. I had a counselor once who told me to not to deal with my husband's irresponsible behaviors because I was enabling him.  However, she must have thought  I was rich and could afford cut-off fees, bounced check fees, etc... .  Even if I could afford them, I'm not about to let my finances get into worse shape just to teach him a lesson.  That seems a bit self defeating, eh?

I am right there with you on that. There are things that I refuse to let go because they would impact me and the kids negatively. Stuff that doesn't have any impact on me or the kids I can let go. There was a time. I don't remember how long ago it was. He would gripe at me about how I did his laundry. I tried to do it his way but it seemed like I couldn't get it right. I told him flat out, "Look, I tried to do it your way and there is no pleasing you. If you want your laundry done a certain way, then you do." I got him a laundry hamper for his clothes and he does his own laundry. If he wants me to wash any of his stuff, he can put it in the family hamper but he doesn't get to say a word about it if it isn't to his specifications. I have never had a problem telling him, "Hey, if you don't like how I am doing something, then do it yourself." He used to bug me about the finances but wouldn't do anything to help. He would call and ask me how much money we had left, blah, blah, blah. I told him, "Hey, if you want to know what is going on, then you need to help. You can go check the online account just as easily as I can." I pushed the issue and made him keep up with his own credit cards and stuff like that. I flat out quit paying his credit card bills and told him that he had to figure out what to do about them. He was able to consolidate them and get into a debt management program.

If your husband is doing something that bothers you, hurts you and you feel like you're complying with something you don't agree with in order to avoid the consequences of confronting him, then maybe you are being an enabler/avoider. 

Confronting him guarantees absolutely nothing. I have read story after story of people confronting their partners only to have their partners resort to the same old behavior. I feel like this is too focused on him and his behavior. If I have a need and know that he can't or won't meet that need, what is the point of confronting him or continually asking him to meet that need? To me, it makes more sense to find other ways of getting stuff done. I don't think that I should have to confront him with things that are related to me and my needs. Sure, I can let him know what those needs are and I can confront him if he is doing something that is a clear violation of my boundaries.

V,

We are not all bad or all good, all toxic or all normal, all enabling or not.   

You can be both an unconditional caring person and a controlling enabler depending on the relationship.  Like I said ... .when you gave the boy the change for the tax, you expected nothing in return. But, when we are depending on a toxic person for something and we are living with their destructive behaviors, we end up enabling them in some way simply by being there.  Even as aware as I am about how I've been an enabler throughout my life and as much as I make an effort to establish and uphold my boundaries, I still enable my husband to behave as he does simply by being here because I must deal with his issues by repairing the damage he creates or else I end up suffering as well.  This is why we need to remove these people from our lives.  It's one thing to enable or champion the good qualities that someone brings to the relationship but enabling destructive harmful behaviors that hurt people is wrong.   

The most basic and classic example of the enabler is the wife who makes sure her alcoholic husband has wine in the house.  She hates him drinking, drinking goes against her religion, she hates the way he smells, she hates her children seeing him drunk, she hates worrying about him wrecking cars or losing his job, she hates everything about it and she hates herself for buying the wine for him BUT she hates her husbands violence when he has nothing to drink, she hates his temper, she hates his arrogance, she hates when he withdraws and ignores the kids, she hates the conflict period.  So, she tells herself, ' Whateva!  It's better to see him somewhat stable and 'happy' rather than being violent and destroying property and hurting the kids"  She is an enabler because she stays and she finds ways to control her husband and his behavior.  Enablers are controllers who become responsible for other people's bad behavior.  You and I learned this early in our life having lived with dysfunctional families. You and I became the 'peacemakers'.  I was told I was the trouble-maker and I believed that about myself until about two months ago when I realized WHY they told me this.   I was the forgiving, sensitive and loving one.  The irony is that the peacemaker is often pegged as the troublemaker because when things go wrong, it's their fault.  " Why didn't you fix this?  Why did you allow that?"  My brother blamed me all the time for the violence between our parents because he expected me to stop it.  In other words, the toxic people burden us with the responsibility of controlling everything and everyone in order for their benefit.  We grow up believing we are defective, flawed and ineffective.  Then we spend a lifetime trying to perfect our skills in order to restore peace and heal the wounded.   We pick up broken people and try to fix them and we keep trying and trying in all sorts of ways that never result in anything that makes us feel worthy. The only people who suffer are us.  Everyone else uses us and abuses our loving nature until we say NO MORE and decide to get help learning to set boundaries and remove toxic people from our lives.

I feel for you V.  I know how difficult it is to strike 'normal'  in our marriage without compromising a large part of ourselves in doing so.  We face so many economic and financial challenges to overcome when we choose to leave.  I'm terrified of ending up homeless. 

[takingandsending]

Thanks for continuing the thread, Vortex.   

I believe that, yes, absolutely, we should provide and help when we have the resources and wisdom to do so, snd we should do so without delay. I once asked my teacher, what if we want to help and don't have the wisdom to know how to help? My teacher, oddly enough, didn't say jump in and do your best; he stated that you make aspirations to be able to help that person or animal or situation in the future. My takeaway is that we aspire and work toward gaining the wisdom to know how to help.

- When I know I am in wise mind helping = when I don't feel anger, loss, resentment building up with the person, situation that I am helping.

- When I know I don't have the wisdom to know how to help = when I feel anger, loss, resentment building up with the person, situation that I am helping.

That's my litmus test. It's not often immediate obvious to me when I am doing one v. the other. The experiment takes time for the reaction to occur. What litmus test can you use?

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks all! Lots of great stuff to think about.

OffRoad:

It seems to me that each circumstance would have to be weighed individually to determine if a non-BPDs behavior would be considered enabling or not.

I am trying to review the past and look at the different situations and try to determine which things I would consider enabling. There are some things that I have done that would fall into that category.

123Phoebe:

I realize when you live together it's a little different situation, but the same thing can be applied to many circumstances, i.e., taking something and running with it without being asked, thinking you're helping then getting mad when your help isn't appreciated.  Knowing how much happier they'd feel with this over and done with, out of the way.  It can take on a life of its own... .

Bf asked for number.  I gave it to him.  He'll call when he's ready, he's very capable.  The end.

Thank you so much for these examples Phoebe!

When I read the one about codependence/enabling/etc, I immediately thought of my mother in law and my mother to a lesser degree. It caused a bit of a light bulb to go off in my head. When I married my husband, I didn't realize that the expectation was for me to take care of him. In the early days, I did pretty much everything. I was expected to manage his relationship with his mother and other people. I was expected to remember when the birthdays for his relatives were and either get the card myself or make sure he got the card. It didn't take long for me to say, "Um, no way pal. Your family, your responsibility." I feel like most of our marriage has been me saying, "Hey, you can do this."

When we met, he didn't know how to work on cars. My dad and I have taught him how to do stuff and have encouraged him and he can now do a lot of little things himself. In a lot of ways, I feel like I am teaching him stuff that his mother should have taught him. She is the kind of person that would rather do it herself. She has told me stories about how she hated having the boys make cookies or do stuff like that with her. She didn't have the patience. As a result, I think my husband learned that all he had to do was irritate his mother or be slow and lazy about stuff and his mother would swoop in and do stuff for him. The amount of stuff that I do for him now is soo much smaller than what I used to do in the beginning of our marriage.

It has been a slow process because he has such crappy self esteem. He got a job one time as a director in his field. When he told his mother, the first thing she said is, ":)on't screw it up." And he did. He screwed the job up. That was one incident where I did rescue him and I have no regrets about that. At that time, he was beat down by his mother as we had lived with her for 4 months and the job had beat him down as well. The job fell apart because he was dealing with a bunch of old women that were just like his mother. Everybody wanted to tell him what to do and he got overwhelmed so I found a way to insert myself in things and create enough of a stink for him to get out of the job with a good recommendation and his dignity in tact.

And, I kind of rescued him from his mother. She was criticizing me and him and the kids and nitpicking us to death. I think the last straw was when I found out I was pregnant with our 4th child. She kept going on and on about how she wanted us to have a boy to carry on the family name on top of a whole bunch of other stuff. I sent her a scathing email telling her that she was a nitpicking b***h. I spelled out how abusive she was to her son and me and our kids. Prior to me letting her have it, she was still raising hell with my husband about whether or not he was going to church. She would raise hell with him about his weight. She would raise hell with him about whether or not he had called his brother. She was constantly finding things to raise hell with him about. After I let her have it, she backed off and stopped being so critical of him. Once she knocked it off, he was able to breathe a little bit.

[vortex of confusion]

Supporting is actively doing things so that a person can help themselves change

Enabling is doing it for them so they dont have to

eg

Supporting=teaching someone how to make bread so the don't starve. when you withdraw your help they have made progress by their own efforts.

Enabling=giving them bread so they dont have to learn to feed themselves. When you withdraw your action, nothing has changed.

I love this explanation waverider!

There are times when I do stuff for him so that he doesn't have to. I think those are times when I am being nice because he has had a long day at work or is feeling down. When he is in a good place, he tries to do the same for me. With the big stuff, I have been working on encouraging him to do stuff for himself for years.

I feel like I have faced an uphill battle because he has a tendency to say stuff like, "I don't have the ability to make bread." At that point, I have to tell him that he is full of it and that he does to have the ability to make bread. I will help him learn how to make bread and will stand by him while he does it. And it will take me giving him lots of encouragement and specific directions. He has spent most of his life with the expectation that he is going to screw things up and that he doesn't have the ability to do stuff. Not too long ago, one of the girls asked him to make some Ramen. He said that he didn't know how to make Ramen. He undercooked or overcooked it one time and the girls said something so he went to "I don't know how to do it" mode. And I go in and tell him, "BS, you can make Ramen. Pay a little closer attention to it and you will be just fine."

eg, if you enjoy "mothering' someone, and they like being mothered. Then it is ok to choose to do so, as it will not create resentment. Our job is not to  fix or train people it is to make sure we dont become miserable.

I so love this! I love spoiling my husband. But I hate thinking that my spoiling him is somehow enabling or rescuing. By spoiling, I mean getting his favorite stuff at the store, cooking meals that he loves, giving him special favors, picking up gifts or other stuff that he likes if I happen to see it on sale, and a lot of little stuff. It is small thoughtful stuff that doesn't really amount to much and doesn't interfere with him being able to be a capable human being. It includes encouraging him and trying to see the good. I like doing it when I can because I can. If I can't, I don't like feeling like I am being punished for it.

I have also shared some of my frustrations with a friend and that friend has said, "that is just who he is. He needs you to take care of him." Um, NO, he is an adult and I am going to treat him like an adult. I am NOT his mother and I will not treat him like a child. I will encourage him and help him but I am NOT going to wipe his butt for him (figuratively speaking).

[vortex of confusion]

I believe that, yes, absolutely, we should provide and help when we have the resources and wisdom to do so, snd we should do so without delay. I once asked my teacher, what if we want to help and don't have the wisdom to know how to help? My teacher, oddly enough, didn't say jump in and do your best; he stated that you make aspirations to be able to help that person or animal or situation in the future. My takeaway is that we aspire and work toward gaining the wisdom to know how to help.

My attitude is usually, "If I can't help, then I will find somebody that can." There are so many wonderful and talented people in this world. I don't need to do everything on my own. I can ask others for help. A lot of times, my husband is afraid to ask for help. When we bought our first new car, I did a bunch of research and narrowed the choice down to a two or three. Then I told my husband he could go out and buy a car. He was afraid and hesitant so I asked my dad if he could go with him and show him the ropes. My dad did. I stayed out of it. When my dad expressed something negative, I told him, ":)ad, buying the car is HIS deal. I am not going to say a word about anything with regards to this car. He needed to do it for himself and get some confidence. He isn't going to get any confidence if I nitpick him or find something negative in the situation." My dad nodded and that was it. My dad has done the same for me over the years.

I know that I am overthinking supporting vs. enabling. I think it is because I have received a lot of mixed messages over the years. On one hand, I have people telling me that I have to suck it up and take care of him and that is who he is. On the other hand, I have had people tell me to stop cooking for him, stop buying clothes for him, and stop doing all of the nice things that I do to send him some kind of message.

And, I know that I don't exactly have a great frame of reference for what is "normal". It isn't that I want to be normal. It is that I want to make decisions that are healthy and will promote growth rather than perpetuating more BS.

That's my litmus test. It's not often immediate obvious to me when I am doing one v. the other. The experiment takes time for the reaction to occur. What litmus test can you use?

Hmmm. . .this is good! I am going to have to think about a litmus test. Like you, I don't always know right away. I am going to have to think about that.

I wonder if anybody else has a litmus test that they use to help them make a better determination.

Thoughts? Input?

[Grey Kitty]

I so love this! I love spoiling my husband. But I hate thinking that my spoiling him is somehow enabling or rescuing. By spoiling, I mean getting his favorite stuff at the store, cooking meals that he loves, giving him special favors, picking up gifts or other stuff that he likes if I happen to see it on sale, and a lot of little stuff.

This isn't even on the enabling-vs-supporting spectrum at all, to my eye--it is pure generosity.

I remember a friend of mine (coworker who had pulled herself out of poverty and unbelievable dysfunction, and most likely abuse) talking about "spoiling" her nieces/nephews. I thought what she was doing was really sweet... .like what you describe... .but I *HATED* her using that word.

To me, spoiling a child means pandering to them, and results in a a bratty sense of entitlement on their part.

Calling actions which are loving, kind, and generous "spoiling" someone feels icky. To me it implies that "normal" treatment of that person is abusive, or at least neglectful, and that a break in the abuse is considered "spoiling" them.   

<descending off soapbox>

Anyhow... .back to the original topic... .somebody here shared their new way to describe the rescuer tendencies/patterns that she was in the process of changing. She called it stealing instead of rescuing. As in stealing life lessons from the other person.

Cooking ramen for your husband who "can't do it right" is stealing (enabling)!

Telling him he can cook it himself, or even telling him to boil the water, throw it in and wait 5 minutes with the stove turned off would be supporting.

Buying him his favorite snacks, or cooking him his favorite meal is generosity.

[OffRoad]

VOrtex, It's funny you should mention cars. I have always fixed the cars in our family. It's something I like to do. Once, a long time ago, I was out on the road and my starter went out (75 dodge one ton truck-you could crawl in the engine compartment with the engine to work on it). H, who I was dating at the time, brought me a starter and wanted to replace it, so I pointed to all the parts, showed him how to do it and let him do it.

Recently, the starter on his car went out. It's a Honda, and has one of the worst starters to replace due to location. H wanted to replace it with S16's help. I stepped back. S16 comes in and says his dad is trying to beat the intake manifold off the engine. I pulled up a picture of the intake manifold and asked S if they had 2 nuts and five bolts from the manifold. S said , no only 3 bolts. I pointed to the picture for S and showed him where the bolts should be, then sent him back out. It took S 15 minutes to convince his dad that the reason the manifold wouldn't come off was because there were still 2 bolts left in it. Both of them learned something that day.

True, the car is still in the driveway with the starter still on it three weeks later, but we have a spare vehicle. Moral of this story, though, is that I could have gone out and done it myself. I can still do it if anyone asks for my help. But I'm not going out there and telling anyone what to do. Worst case scenario is we have to have it towed to the repair shop. And there have been 0 arguments over it between H and myself. I can't speak to H and S, though... .

[vortex of confusion]

I remember a friend of mine (coworker who had pulled herself out of poverty and unbelievable dysfunction, and most likely abuse) talking about "spoiling" her nieces/nephews. I thought what she was doing was really sweet... .like what you describe... .but I *HATED* her using that word.

I am not a big fan of the word either. There used to be something floating around that went something along the lines of "Responding to the needs of your child is not spoiling. They are people, not produce." I used to get in arguments with people about that word but gave up after getting into a discussion with my kids about why they are NOT spoiled. They won that argument.  My nieces, my nephews, my husband, and my children have all repeatedly told me that I spoil people. Whatever. I give up.

Calling actions which are loving, kind, and generous "spoiling" someone feels icky. To me it implies that "normal" treatment of that person is abusive, or at least neglectful, and that a break in the abuse is considered "spoiling" them.   

It does feel icky. I have come to be okay with it by realizing that it is spoiling in the sense that it is setting the bar for standard treatment pretty friggin' high. My kids can see right through BS rather quickly. I seriously doubt that they will ever be able to normalize abusive behavior the way I have.

[vortex of confusion]

True, the car is still in the driveway with the starter still on it three weeks later, but we have a spare vehicle. Moral of this story, though, is that I could have gone out and done it myself. I can still do it if anyone asks for my help. But I'm not going out there and telling anyone what to do. Worst case scenario is we have to have it towed to the repair shop. And there have been 0 arguments over it between H and myself. I can't speak to H and S, though... .

That is hilarious. I had a car and the master cylinder went out. My dad gave my husband the parts. Husband never did get around to fixing it. It set in the driveway for several years before I got mad and sold it. I could have had somebody else come in and fix it or found a way to get it done. Husband said he would do it so I let it be. One day my nephew asked me if I wanted to sell it so I said sure. I didn't argue with my husband about it. I let it go and that was that.

[Leaving]

I remember a friend of mine (coworker who had pulled herself out of poverty and unbelievable dysfunction, and most likely abuse) talking about "spoiling" her nieces/nephews. I thought what she was doing was really sweet... .like what you describe... .but I *HATED* her using that word.

I am not a big fan of the word either. There used to be something floating around that went something along the lines of "Responding to the needs of your child is not spoiling. They are people, not produce." I used to get in arguments with people about that word but gave up after getting into a discussion with my kids about why they are NOT spoiled. They won that argument.  My nieces, my nephews, my husband, and my children have all repeatedly told me that I spoil people. Whatever. I give up.

Calling actions which are loving, kind, and generous "spoiling" someone feels icky. To me it implies that "normal" treatment of that person is abusive, or at least neglectful, and that a break in the abuse is considered "spoiling" them.   

It does feel icky. I have come to be okay with it by realizing that it is spoiling in the sense that it is setting the bar for standard treatment pretty friggin' high. My kids can see right through BS rather quickly. I seriously doubt that they will ever be able to normalize abusive behavior the way I have.

I've always wanted to be spoiled with love ( I've already been spoiled by poisons) so if any one of you is up to the task I promise to give big hugs in return 

[vortex of confusion]

I've always wanted to be spoiled with love ( I've already been spoiled by poisons) so if any one of you is up to the task I promise to give big hugs in return 

In my world, that is what I aspire to do. I aspire to spoil my family with love. It isn't about the material stuff for me. It is about the little bitty thoughtful stuff. But, I have to figure out how to balance that and make sure that I am not allowing myself to be taken advantage of or doing things for other people that is stunting their growth.

Here are some hugs for you!   

Can you spoil yourself with self love? That is where I struggle most. I can love my kids. I can love my husband. I can love my friends. I can't always find it in me to love myself.

[Leaving]

I've always wanted to be spoiled with love ( I've already been spoiled by poisons) so if any one of you is up to the task I promise to give big hugs in return 

In my world, that is what I aspire to do. I aspire to spoil my family with love. It isn't about the material stuff for me. It is about the little bitty thoughtful stuff. But, I have to figure out how to balance that and make sure that I am not allowing myself to be taken advantage of or doing things for other people that is stunting their growth.

Here are some hugs for you!   


Can you spoil yourself with self love? That is where I struggle most. I can love my kids. I can love my husband. I can love my friends. I can't always find it in me to love myself.

Thank you V for my hugs today   

It's not a good day- broke my tooth- a very costly booboo

I'm just like you.  I can love and love and love and give and give but when it comes to self-care, i'm very negligent. 

Balance is key. Don't become a martyr.  I don't think that there can ever be too much ' true love' but sometimes it becomes something else like a way to control people in our lives. I don't mean the type of control used because of a need for power but rather a need to create security.    I think most people who love too much may mean well but because of their own personal fears, guilt or insecurities, they over extend their love and smother. 

I had a boyfriend once who loved me so much it drove me to break up with him.  His type of love was very controlling and smothering.  He controlled every minute of my day by filling it with his attention in some way.  That was not good and it's not what I consider to be love even though I have no doubt that he 'loved' me and meant well.  He had such a desire to make me the best I could be and to give me everything I ever dreamed of.  I remember when I moved into his house as a housemate and mentioning that I needed a desk for my room and later that afternoon when I came home, he had built one for me!  So, you see, he stole all the adventure from my life. I didn't need to think.  I just needed to blink and voila, the genie would produce.  Sounds great but trust me, it becomes oppressive and stifling after a few days!  I never could sleep in because he would prepare a huge breakfast and bring it to me in bed every morning.  A few years ago he contacted me and I recalled all those 'wonderful' things he did for me and wondered if I was just an idiot for breaking up with him.  So, we had lunch one day.  V, I was with him for only five minutes before I realized why I broke up.  I just can't handle that kind of doting. It's not healthy.

Time to go get my toof fixed.  Oh joy  

[Grey Kitty]

It does feel icky. I have come to be okay with it by realizing that it is spoiling in the sense that it is setting the bar for standard treatment pretty friggin' high. My kids can see right through BS rather quickly. I seriously doubt that they will ever be able to normalize abusive behavior the way I have.

I sure hope your kids never grow up to do that.

I hope YOU never do it again either.

Can you spoil yourself with self love? That is where I struggle most. I can love my kids. I can love my husband. I can love my friends. I can't always find it in me to love myself.

Yes, it is harder. And needed. What I see is that the more you can love yourself, the more you are capable of loving others.

I'm totally extrapolating/guessing... .but I suspect that I wouldn't be separated today if my wife had more capacity to love herself instead of trying (and failing) to sacrifice herself for what she thought I needed/wanted.

[takingandsending]

GK - I fall into a similar boat as Vortex. I always find it easier to do for others than for myself, to think well of others than of myself. Given your statement (which I also hold true),

What I see is that the more you can love yourself, the more you are capable of loving others.

what does it mean, then, in terms of those of us who are giving and loving others more than we know how to do for ourselves? Lifelong constructed facade, used as a means of coping with early childhood dynamics? Or something that becomes part of what makes us who we are, including those unenviable tendencies/inclinations toward co-dependency? Thing is, our identities and sense of self get entwined with giving to others first. I don't believe that's a bad thing - it's what all major religions espouse, but our capacity to love ourselves is necessary so that it remains a natural, steady outpouring of kindness v. a forced, ragged and desperate effort to maintain our sense of how we believe we should be when we don't feel it.

This is where the slippery slope of co-dependency and enabling lie, for me.

[vortex of confusion]

Thank you V for my hugs today   

Here's some more:  

It's not a good day- broke my tooth- a very costly booboo

Yuck! Dental stuff stinks.

I'm just like you.  I can love and love and love and give and give but when it comes to self-care, i'm very negligent. 

I have had a few epiphanies about why I am negligent. My brother and I have talked about this several times in the last couple of months. As kids, we weren't really allowed to be kids. He worked for our dad and was always getting called in to do stuff. He could be out on a date and our parents would track him down and tell him, "Hey, you need to come in and do this." Likewise, I got the same except for me, it was that I would have to watch my sister's kids. I'd have plans to go out or do something and would get told that I couldn't do it because mom needed me to do x, y, or z. One time when I was in college, I got in trouble because I didn't wash a car quickly enough. I was studying for a big final. When I didn't get straight A's in my first couple of years, my mother blamed it all on the guy I was dating. She said that I was too distracted. I was still on the friggin' deans list every semester and I was still on a full scholarship. What more did the B want?

I learned how to adopt the attitude, "As long as the people around me are happy, I am happy."

I think most people who love too much may mean well but because of their own personal fears, guilt or insecurities, they over extend their love and smother.

I don't think that I smother. If I did, I think my kids would have told me by now. I feel like I struggle to breathe sometimes because I feel like I am being smothered. I wasn't being smothered with the good kind of attention either. It was the invasive calling me all of the time wanting to know what I was doing and thinking and if I wasn't available then he would keep calling or messaging until I was. Thank God all of that has stopped!

[vortex of confusion]

what does it mean, then, in terms of those of us who are giving and loving others more than we know how to do for ourselves? Lifelong constructed facade, used as a means of coping with early childhood dynamics? Or something that becomes part of what makes us who we are, including those unenviable tendencies/inclinations toward co-dependency? Thing is, our identities and sense of self get entwined with giving to others first. I don't believe that's a bad thing - it's what all major religions espouse, but our capacity to love ourselves is necessary so that it remains a natural, steady outpouring of kindness v. a forced, ragged and desperate effort to maintain our sense of how we believe we should be when we don't feel it.

This is where the slippery slope of co-dependency and enabling lie, for me.

Thanks takingandsending! When I read GK's response, I wasn't comfortable with it but couldn't really articulate why. I don't think me loving others stems from not loving myself. I don't think I am trying to fill some kind of void or something like that. There is a possibility that I am in denial. I won't completely discount that.

Now I am wondering what self love should look like or feel like.

I want to be a kind and loving and peaceful person. When I am not kind to others, I feel bad about myself. Over the last couple of years, I was being pulled in two different directions. Now that certain things have stopped, I am realizing that I feel a whole lot better about myself. I know that I have a mean streak a mile long. I don't kid myself or anybody else. I am ornery as heck and I like to channel that orneriness into things that are fun and loving and kind. For me, that is part of taking care of myself.

The problem is that it is difficult to be kind, etc. when dealing with somebody that is negative and unpredictable.

A situation came up this morning where I almost didn't say something about a comment that really hurt my feelings. I feel like it is stupid on my part. My husband posted something about looking forward to doing something this evening. He said he can't remember how many years it has been since he has done this activity. He is getting together with another musician. He and I played music together a couple of weeks ago and I really, really enjoyed it. I know I probably took it too personally but it helped me to see why I sometimes feel invisible and unimportant. I almost said something like, "I guess I don't qualify as somebody. What about the fun we had playing together a couple of weeks ago?" I didn't say that. All I did was post, "Ouch." I wanted him to know that it hurt my feelings but I wasn't sure what to say.

We did talk about it and that made me even madder because I tried to be very nice about telling him that I felt kind of invisible and that the things he and I do together don't really matter to him. I could hear him almost crying over it. He went on to beat himself up and apologize for being so stupid and thoughtless. He was the one that said something that I thought was insensitive and here I am having my heartstrings pulled on. It was very frustrating but it also made me a little more aware of why I sometimes choose not to say anything at all. If I say something, then he is liable to suck me in and pull on those heart strings. If I don't say anything, then that doesn't feel right either.

And, I am sitting here thinking about how he and I were looking forward to watching the season finale of one of our favorite shows tonight. He got an opportunity to do something else and jumped on it. I am glad that he gets to do the other thing but it still hurts a little because he has done really great the last week or two. Now I am wondering if I should have said something about the fact that I had really been looking forward to spending the evening with him and am disappointed because I will be watching our show alone. It is something small and stupid but watching this show together is something that we have done even when we didn't really like each other at all. For me, it feels like just one more example of him being selfish and thoughtless. It feels like on more example of him NOT thinking about me and instead focusing on himself and what he wants to do. I am not sure how to articulate it. Part of me feels like I am being completely friggin' ridiculous to be hurt by something so trivial.

[takingandsending]

Hey VOC. I know it's not the same thing, but could you tape the show and watch it  together tomorrow? Maybe ask him how he feels about that? Unless you know enough of your H to see it backfire. I am sorry that you got hurt. 

[vortex of confusion]

Hey VOC. I know it's not the same thing, but could you tape the show and watch it  together tomorrow? Maybe ask him how he feels about that? Unless you know enough of your H to see it backfire. I am sorry that you got hurt. 

I know him well enough to know that it will backfire. I am going to deal this one on my own because saying something to HIM would be very contradictory and confusing for him.The reason is that I have been trying to encourage both of us to do things without each other. For the longest time, he wouldn't do much of anything without me. The only places he goes outside of work are his 12 step meeting and the grocery store. I don't want to say anything and have him feel guilty. What he is doing tonight is new and exciting for him. I don't want to be invalidating. I am getting what I want. Saying something about it would like be interpreted as me griping or complaining about what he is doing and he would likely never go out again rather than see it for what it is. It is a small oversight on his part that didn't take into account the plans that we had together. I see it as a lack of consideration. He could have done the activity next week or some other time.

I have a very difficult time communicating with him about this. There is a precedent that has been set where if I try to point out him being inconsiderate about something, then he will stop doing it all together and will get mad at me and say that I am being contradictory, having double standards, or something else. I totally get why he would think that or say that. The problem is that he isn't hearing or seeing how some of the things that he does are inconsiderate of me. It is like he gets so focused on things that he can only be nice to or think of one person at a time.

[Grey Kitty]

GK - I fall into a similar boat as Vortex. I always find it easier to do for others than for myself, to think well of others than of myself. Given your statement (which I also hold true),

What I see is that the more you can love yourself, the more you are capable of loving others.

what does it mean, then, in terms of those of us who are giving and loving others more than we know how to do for ourselves?

I would like to point out the part I didn't say.

I didn't say that you cannot love others if you don't love yourself.

If you are someone who loves others more than you love yourself... .as you learn to love yourself more (than you used to), you will be able to love others more than you used to love them as well.

A friend of mine pointed me at Rabbi Hilleil's three questions recently... .I am wondering how I made it over 40 years without seeing them... .

• If I am not for myself, who will be for me?



• But if I am only for myself, who am I?



• If not now, when?

The trick is to put yourself first... .without putting others down while you do it, as you do know that you won't feel good about yourself while hurting others. And all that comes from those first two questions. (The third question is very relevant to me personally today, but not to this topic!)

[Grey Kitty]

A situation came up this morning where I almost didn't say something about a comment that really hurt my feelings.

[... .]

We did talk about it and that made me even madder because I tried to be very nice about telling him that I felt kind of invisible and that the things he and I do together don't really matter to him. I could hear him almost crying over it. He went on to beat himself up and apologize for being so stupid and thoughtless. He was the one that said something that I thought was insensitive and here I am having my heartstrings pulled on. It was very frustrating but it also made me a little more aware of why I sometimes choose not to say anything at all. If I say something, then he is liable to suck me in and pull on those heart strings. If I don't say anything, then that doesn't feel right either.

Uhm. That's him. That's him being an a$$. That's him turning what could have been an apology to you, which you would appreciate 180 degrees to something manipulative where you should feel sorry for him instead.    

Sadly, given his mental/emotional state, he just doesn't have the capacity to give a sincere apology for his behavior. (I remember my wife being unable to do that for years. The words "I'm sorry" were always followed by something like "for being such a horrible person" instead of "for what I did that hurt you". And that isn't an apology. It was after a lot of healing on her part that I remember one year she finally offered a genuine apology. I don't even remember what it was for, just that it was the first real one I'd heard in at least a decade, if ever.

I have a very difficult time communicating with him about this. There is a precedent that has been set where if I try to point out him being inconsiderate about something, then he will stop doing it all together and will get mad at me and say that I am being contradictory, having double standards, or something else.

It is like he gets so focused on things that he can only be nice to or think of one person at a time.

Yep. This is more of the same problem again. It bites.

[vortex of confusion]

A friend of mine pointed me at Rabbi Hilleil's three questions recently... .I am wondering how I made it over 40 years without seeing them... .

• If I am not for myself, who will be for me?



• But if I am only for myself, who am I?



• If not now, when?

The trick is to put yourself first... .without putting others down while you do it, as you do know that you won't feel good about yourself while hurting others. And all that comes from those first two questions. (The third question is very relevant to me personally today, but not to this topic!)

I remember seeing you post this in another thread. I had never heard of these three questions before then. For those wanting an explanation or further reading, I found this link back then that has some really good food for thought: www.kehillasynagogue.org/2011/11/09/hillels-three-questions-high-holydays-5772-2011/

I had completely forgotten about researching the three questions and finding that page. It touches on some of the topics in this thread.

Some snippets from the article:

Hillel’s three questions are really rhetorical in nature. In other words, they have built-in answers. They could have also been stated:

Look after yourself.

Take care of others.

Do it now.

But Hillel was another kind of revolutionary. He championed the way of non-violence, compassion, gentleness and civil discourse. He taught the doing of good regardless of the social and political circumstances. And so Herod basically left him and the Pharisees alone, while Hillel and his contemporaries quietly built a community of resistance.

I pulled this quote because I think it might be the way to deal with this stuff. Do good regardless of the behavior of your partner. Instead of confronting or being in your face, find ways to quietly resist the efforts of the pwBPD in order to take care of yourself and do good. Maybe that is a bit of a stretch. Not sure. Thoughts?

Hillel didn’t believe in waiting for the messiah to change the world. Instead, he taught, “In a place where no one is acting in a human way, strive to be a human being.” Anchored in the present, Hillel lived the love and peace that he so fervently affirmed.

I read this and immediately thought of everyone that is trying to make sense of living with a person that seems way off. The only way through it is try to be a human being. No more and no less.

[vortex of confusion]

Uhm. That's him. That's him being an a$$.

You have such a way with words. That pretty much sums it up. No need for me to make excuses or explain it.

It is perfectly normal to be irritated when somebody else is being an azz.

[Leaving]

GK - I fall into a similar boat as Vortex. I always find it easier to do for others than for myself, to think well of others than of myself. Given your statement (which I also hold true),

What I see is that the more you can love yourself, the more you are capable of loving others.

what does it mean, then, in terms of those of us who are giving and loving others more than we know how to do for ourselves?

I would like to point out the part I didn't say.

I didn't say that you cannot love others if you don't love yourself.

If you are someone who loves others more than you love yourself... .as you learn to love yourself more (than you used to), you will be able to love others more than you used to love them as well.

A friend of mine pointed me at Rabbi Hilleil's three questions recently... .I am wondering how I made it over 40 years without seeing them... .

• If I am not for myself, who will be for me?



• But if I am only for myself, who am I?



• If not now, when?

The trick is to put yourself first... .without putting others down while you do it, as you do know that you won't feel good about yourself while hurting others. And all that comes from those first two questions. (The third question is very relevant to me personally today, but not to this topic!)

GK,

I love that quote from the Rabbi.  Ironically, it was through studying Judaism and Tikkun Olam that I finally learned  importance of self-care, self respect and giving in healthy ways.  

I don't believe we can love if we don't love ourselves.  I don't think that would be love but instead something else resembling infatuation or egoistic displays of affection. Love begins with ourselves.  We must believe that we deserve our own love and affection or we won't be open to giving and receiving it.  We would not even recognize it as love when it appears.

Something to ponder:

Osho writes:  

First you have to learn to love yourself, because only if you love yourself can you love the other. You have to love yourself so much that love starts overflowing. You have to be so loving that your love transforms others."... .

... .Love Yourself

We begin with one of the most profound sutras of Gautama the Buddha:  “Love yourself…”

Just the opposite has been taught to you by all the traditions of the world, all the civilizations, all the cultures, all the churches. They say: “Love others, don’t love yourself.” And there is a certain cunning strategy behind their teaching.

Love is the nourishment for the soul. Just as food is to the body, so love is to the soul. Without food the body is weak, without love the soul is weak. And no state, no church, no vested interest, has ever wanted people to have strong souls, because a person with spiritual energy is bound to be rebellious.

Love makes you rebellious, revolutionary. Love gives you wings to soar high. Love gives you insight into things, so that nobody can deceive you, exploit you, oppress you.

If a man cannot love himself he cannot love anybody else either. The teaching is very tricky. They say “Love others,” because they know if you cannot love yourself you cannot love at all. But they go on saying, “Love others, love humanity, love God, love nature, love your wife, your husband, your children, your parents, but don’t love yourself” – because to love oneself is selfish according to them.

They condemn self-love as they condemn nothing else – and they have made their teaching look very logical. They say: “If you love yourself you will become an egoist, if you love yourself you will become narcissistic.” It is not true. A man who loves himself finds that there is no ego in him. It is by loving others without loving yourself, trying to love others, that the ego arises.

The missionaries, the social reformers, the social servants, have the greatest egos in the world – naturally, because they think themselves to be superior human beings. They are not ordinary: ordinary people love themselves; they love others, they love great ideals, they love God. And all their love is false, because all their love is without any roots."

[takingandsending]

Interesting, Leaving. That is the point I was wondering about, namely that loving in absence of having learned self-love is a facade of sorts. Not sure I entirely agree with Osho or the author of the BPD article on co-dependency with respect to the calculated and carefully disguised intent of people who chronically put others ahead of themselves. It's a mixed bag is my best guess.

We enter the world in extreme dependency, and as is the wont of young children, we imbue everything with meaning that relates back to our developing sense of self. At first as infants, nothing is separate from us, the universe revolves around us. Gradually this view shifts to the point that we see ourselves as separate, unique, in relation to others. Deficiencies appear in our world - our parents, our families, our selves. Without security, stability and guidance at those tender times, we fill in the narrative that explains the internal hurts that we experience - we make them about us. Is this ego at work? Yes. Is it parasitic and maleficent? Not so much. Over time, we learn to navigate the waters of human relationship, and the co-dependent soon discovers that self-sacrifice is rewarded and even sometimes praised by virtue of already knowing that anything but self-sacrifice is condemned.

In my FOO, anything that resembled self-interest ahead of self-sacrifice was considered selfish. Where can you go  in that paradigm? How can you make sense of that? And was I wrong to conclude that it is better to love others than loving oneself? No one told me to choose this. It wasn't as if I wasn't going to be fed and clothed if I didn't adopt this model. It was more a matter of finding explanations for when loving kindness was taken away from me and what helped to return me into the good graces of love from my parents and siblings. These things very much occupy the minds of children and make the world that they live in bewildering and frightening. It's one reason that the fairy tale stories have such universal appeal to children. Show them some nightmare inducing, terrifying spectacle - they embrace it because they have likely lived some version of it that seemed to them quite as big and real as the fantastical dilemma presented in the story books.

In the end, despite the warnings of Osho, we each get to choose and adopt our own path out of the psychological forest. For me, I believe that enlightenment is the realization of selflessness, inseparable from the apparent self. I believe, as GK states, that as we perfect self-love, our capacity to love others only increases, but that we certainly are not wrong for loving others, and that there likely is never any 100% absence of self-love, as I think that is the essential nature of life.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

In the end, despite the warnings of Osho, we each get to choose and adopt our own path out of the psychological forest. For me, I believe that enlightenment is the realization of selflessness, inseparable from the apparent self. I believe, as GK states, that as we perfect self-love, our capacity to love others only increases, but that we certainly are not wrong for loving others, and that there likely is never any 100% absence of self-love, as I think that is the essential nature of life.

Once you can self love in a healthy, as opposed to narcissistic, way, then we can accept ourselves warts an all without guilt. Without guilt or shame we can examine ways to be far more objective and fair in the way we react to others. Even more accepting

Denial, delusions and facades are all defensive tools to prevent our true selves from being exposed as a result of not being proud of who we are.

Once you can have pride in who you are it is like the clouds lift and life becomes far more bright and clear, whatever your lot in life

[waverider]

Loving yourself and centering yourself provides a benchmark by which you judge what is a healthy way to "love" others. pwBPD often have very little self awareness hence their measure of what is appropriate towards others is often skewed. It can be either nil or over the top almost like trespassing or stalking and generally crossing boundaries.

Endless crossing of other people boundaries  causes the intertwining of enabling and codependency. This creates chaos as individual push and then withdraw in response to their own needs, leaving the other is a state of flux, over which they have no control.

Supply and withdraw is the cornerstone of addiction and the negative consequences of it.

The need to rescue others before rescuing ourselves often leads to misguided attempts which can do more harm than good. This is one of the reasons on this site we focus so much in centering ourseleves as the main priority

[Leaving]

Interesting, Leaving. That is the point I was wondering about, namely that loving in absence of having learned self-love is a facade of sorts. Not sure I entirely agree with Osho or the author of the BPD article on co-dependency with respect to the calculated and carefully disguised intent of people who chronically put others ahead of themselves. It's a mixed bag is my best guess.

We enter the world in extreme dependency, and as is the wont of young children, we imbue everything with meaning that relates back to our developing sense of self. At first as infants, nothing is separate from us, the universe revolves around us. Gradually this view shifts to the point that we see ourselves as separate, unique, in relation to others. Deficiencies appear in our world - our parents, our families, our selves. Without security, stability and guidance at those tender times, we fill in the narrative that explains the internal hurts that we experience - we make them about us. Is this ego at work? Yes. Is it parasitic and maleficent? Not so much. Over time, we learn to navigate the waters of human relationship, and the co-dependent soon discovers that self-sacrifice is rewarded and even sometimes praised by virtue of already knowing that anything but self-sacrifice is condemned.

In my FOO, anything that resembled self-interest ahead of self-sacrifice was considered selfish. Where can you go  in that paradigm? How can you make sense of that? And was I wrong to conclude that it is better to love others than loving oneself? No one told me to choose this. It wasn't as if I wasn't going to be fed and clothed if I didn't adopt this model. It was more a matter of finding explanations for when loving kindness was taken away from me and what helped to return me into the good graces of love from my parents and siblings. These things very much occupy the minds of children and make the world that they live in bewildering and frightening. It's one reason that the fairy tale stories have such universal appeal to children. Show them some nightmare inducing, terrifying spectacle - they embrace it because they have likely lived some version of it that seemed to them quite as big and real as the fantastical dilemma presented in the story books.

In the end, despite the warnings of Osho, we each get to choose and adopt our own path out of the psychological forest. For me, I believe that enlightenment is the realization of selflessness, inseparable from the apparent self. I believe, as GK states, that as we perfect self-love, our capacity to love others only increases, but that we certainly are not wrong for loving others, and that there likely is never any 100% absence of self-love, as I think that is the essential nature of life.

I guess we need to define love. In our culture, it is rare that a child receive unconditional love which I believe is the root of  many of our problems today.   Sometimes people express love to people who continually hurt them like how abused children love their parents and then grow up feeling they need to make others love them- that they need to earn self worth in order to receive love from others. The sad thing is that the person never feels worthy enough and is conditioned to believe they must keep working harder to please others.

Sounds like you and I grew up learning love under the same conditions.  It was always strange to me and very uncomfortable. Did you feel that way too?   I noticed the way other families related and I knew that kind of love was missing in my own home. My friends had siblings and they would always tell each other, ' Love you' as they walked out the door or at the end of phone calls. I wanted to be like them and I spent more time with them than I did with my own family.   Everyone in my family appeared to love each other as seen in all the family photographs but those were part of the illusion- a very confusing one for me.  To this day, I look at those photographs and every one of them is stained with a dark painful memory of something that had happened just moments before the camera flash.  Smile, be happy, don't be bitter, don't dwell on what happened... .just smile.

When we love ourselves, we don't feel the need to do anything to receive love from others because we don't need it. Therefore when we offer it, it is unconditional. Loving everything and being attached to nothing is a difficult paradox for us to grasp because of our emotional and physical needs  But, ideally just  having the awareness of what our needs are and how they affect our behavior and how we love others can help us achieve that kind of emotional freedom.

The question I ask myself is whether I am acting out of need or desire/want.  I want to experience love with someone but I don't need it so I just give it freely from my heart.  I want someone to love me who doesn't need my love because their need changes the value of that love by putting conditions on it.  

[Crumbling]

Endless crossing of other people boundaries  causes the intertwining of enabling and codependency. This creates chaos as individual push and then withdraw in response to their own needs, leaving the other is a state of flux, over which they have no control.

This is a really good way to think about enabling!  And really helps explain why I started to have positive results when I started to set clear boundaries I stuck to.  I guess I just never made the connection between the two before.  It also helps explain the extinction bursts we see happen when a new boundary is set and enforced.

[vortex of confusion]

I guess we need to define love. In our culture, it is rare that a child receive unconditional love which I believe is the root of  many of our problems today.   Sometimes people express love to people who continually hurt them like how abused children love their parents and then grow up feeling they need to make others love them- that they need to earn self worth in order to receive love from others. The sad thing is that the person never feels worthy enough and is conditioned to believe they must keep working harder to please others.

When I read this, it made me think of the distinction between love as a feeling and love as an action verb. I have been pondering some of the stuff that has been brought up in this thread. I feel self love for myself. I can say that I love myself or feel love for myself. However, I don't know how to have love for myself that takes the form of an action verb. Acting in ways that show self love towards myself has been hampered by those around me telling me that taking care of myself in active ways is selfish.

To this day, I look at those photographs and every one of them is stained with a dark painful memory of something that had happened just moments before the camera flash.  Smile, be happy, don't be bitter, don't dwell on what happened... .just smile.

We rarely took family photos growing up. My parents have one family photo on their wall. I think it was taken when I was 8 or 9. I can vividly remember all of the BS that happened surrounding those photos. The day of the photo shoot there was some kind of drama. My oldest sister had this thing about her hair brush. Leaving the house usually involved lots of drama with her ranting and raving about her brush. And then, when the pictures came in, mom spent too much money and dad threw a fit and she had to take a whole bunch of them back. It was crazy.

When we love ourselves, we don't feel the need to do anything to receive love from others because we don't need it.

I have a vague thought related to this. I don't feel like I did things to receive love. I feel like I did things to avoid hatred and to avoid being punished. I didn't really care if I was loved. I just didn't want to be hated. I didn't want to be punished. I didn't want to create drama or be the cause of drama. I didn't want to upset other people because I grew up around people that didn't just get upset. They would rage in very scary ways and I didn't want any part of that. I just wanted peace. I think I feel that way with my husband too. I don't really give a rat's patooty if he loves me. All I want is peace. I would like it if he was a little more thoughtful at times. I realize that is a pipe dream and it does not matter what I do or don't do. None of that is going to impact whether or not he is thoughtful or checked in.

The question I ask myself is whether I am acting out of need or desire/want.  I want to experience love with someone but I don't need it so I just give it freely from my heart.  I want someone to love me who doesn't need my love because their need changes the value of that love by putting conditions on it.  

I think everyone has a need for love. I think the bigger question is whether or not that love needs to be romantic love as you would find in a marriage or romantic partnership. Romance comes and goes in healthy relationships. It is having some kind of regard for each other and some kind of foundation to keep things going when the romance is gone. Even if I don't have that loving feeling towards my husband, I can still do loving actions. Even if I don't respect him, I can have regard for him and treat him well because he is a human being and the father of my children. Whether or not he does that in return is not up to me.

[vortex of confusion]

Endless crossing of other people boundaries  causes the intertwining of enabling and codependency. This creates chaos as individual push and then withdraw in response to their own needs, leaving the other is a state of flux, over which they have no control.

This is a really good way to think about enabling!  And really helps explain why I started to have positive results when I started to set clear boundaries I stuck to.  I guess I just never made the connection between the two before.  It also helps explain the extinction bursts we see happen when a new boundary is set and enforced.

I think this also helps me to understand why *I* got so confused and lost my way. He didn't really have any boundaries and my boundaries were repeatedly crossed. I would try to set boundaries and he would nag and badger and pester until I gave in. A lot of times, it felt like being in an interrogation chamber. I pretty much taught him that if he badgered enough, I would give in. It was incessant badgering and nagging. I think I would have had to be super woman or something to have withstood the badgering without giving in. Even the kids aren't as bad as he was there for a while. It created complete and utter chaos because I felt like I had no way to protect myself. And I never really knew from one day to the next how things were going to be. It was completely unpredictable and it fed the beast.

[Grey Kitty]

... .made me think of the distinction between love as a feeling and love as an action verb. I have been pondering some of the stuff that has been brought up in this thread. I feel self love for myself. I can say that I love myself or feel love for myself. However, I don't know how to have love for myself that takes the form of an action verb. Acting in ways that show self love towards myself has been hampered by those around me telling me that taking care of myself in active ways is selfish.

Ding, Ding, Ding.

You just found something you were programmed with... .that you could start changing.

Pick one thing you were consistently told was selfish if you did it for yourself... .that would be a way to act with love for yourself... .and start doing it!

Even though you feel like you are being selfish or hear that kind of voice in your head... .

[waverider]

Self love helps you value your own boundaries as worthy. It makes it easier to think it totally unreasonable to allow them to be crossed, and hence enforcement becomes easier.

It is a good defense against enmeshment.

It all starts in self belief that we have a right to be proud of ourselves. Not for what we have done, but knowing that we are doing our best and working on doing better each day.

Learning the difference between enabling and supporting, we can choose for ourselves which we want to do. We can choose either, that is our choice. It is no choice though if you don't know the difference in the first place

[Cat Familiar]

Many years ago when I did some counseling after my first marriage ended, my counselor told me "We have to build you a self." I too had been manipulated by my mother and told that any self-focus was selfish. She even corrected me as a very young child for saying "I" and I remember a time when I wanted to show her a trick I had mastered on the swing set and she criticized me for needing attention.

For far too many years, the only way I could feel good about myself was through other people's positive regard and I did whatever I could to earn that. Certainly that put me in a very vulnerable and unstable position, especially since my first husband also was a pwBPD.

Another concept I learned from that therapy was the idea of "healthy selfish." Even though I married another pwBPD, I never have lost myself the way I did in my first marriage. It's so common for people to try to manipulate us through calling us selfish. Now when my husband tells me I'm self-centered because I don't want to do something he wants, then I agree with him. I've been successfully inoculated against the fear of selfishness.

[vortex of confusion]

Many years ago when I did some counseling after my first marriage ended, my counselor told me "We have to build you a self." I too had been manipulated by my mother and told that any self-focus was selfish. She even corrected me as a very young child for saying "I" and I remember a time when I wanted to show her a trick I had mastered on the swing set and she criticized me for needing attention.

I strongly believe that I have a self. I don't need to build it. I have to find ways of being comfortable with expressing that self and honoring that self out loud. It isn't so much that I need approval. It is more that I need to not be criticized and torn down for being me.

[vortex of confusion]

You just found something you were programmed with... .that you could start changing.

Pick one thing you were consistently told was selfish if you did it for yourself... .that would be a way to act with love for yourself... .and start doing it!

Even though you feel like you are being selfish or hear that kind of voice in your head... .

I am on it already. 

I went out by myself the other day and went shopping and bought myself an outfit that wasn't on clearance. And, I asked him to do the night time parenting over the weekend. I splurged and bought some fondant so I could experiment with it. I baked cupcakes without the kids and played with my fondant. And I bought myself a cake pan that I have been wanting for a while. I feel really silly to get such pleasure out of such small things that I have denied myself for so long.

Yesterday, I was trying to have a discussion with my husband and he was getting snotty. Instead of trying to wade through it and take a chance at things getting worse, I told him, "Look, I want to have a discussion with you but I can't do it when you get snotty with me. This discussion is over." He seemed a bit taken aback but he was cool with it. I felt like I sounded like his mother. I have resisted that for a really long time. I think I am going to have to learn to embrace that to a certain degree because that seems to be the only way that he responds to me setting boundaries.

[Crumbling]

Yeah, for your shopping spree!  Sounds like you had fun!  That's so great.  Investing in you is never a dumb idea, and is definitely NOT silly!  I'm proud of you, V.  Keep up the good work. 

I strongly believe that I have a self. I don't need to build it. I have to find ways of being comfortable with expressing that self and honoring that self out loud. It isn't so much that I need approval. It is more that I need to not be criticized and torn down for being me.

Those words... .'not be criticized and torn down for being me'.  That is really important, absolutely!  I take it, from my own experience, that it is your H that is the criticizer.  Aside from wearing ear plugs whenever he is in the room, how can we get this to stop?  I find it really difficult to accept this behavior, so I have set a boundary against it.  It has taken total commitment to catching him each and every time he does it and calling the stops to get my H to back off.  Some days, it would be constant and non-stop, regardless of my words.  When that happens I say, "obviously, you are having difficulty controlling your words today.  We need to be in separate places right now, because I can't take the belittling any more than you can make yourself stop doing it."  Then I'd give him the choice, "do you want to leave or should I?" 

Now, I find that if I do this, he will come back with an apology and acknowledgement (="I'm sorry, I don't know why I keep doing this."  This is when we start talking emotions and things that have happened in the short term that may have caused his negative head-space.  Like I said, right now, I feel more like a therapist to him than a wife... .hey, but at least I'm not being put down all the time!  Sometimes he's too much into the negative head-space for this to pull him out, but that is when he needs to look after himself, and I need to step away.  That's my boundary.  All we can do is lead the horse to water, right?

You have said so yourself, Vee, you wont let him belittle the girls.  So don't accept that he does it to you.  That little wounded girl inside of you (the one your mom taught you to ignore) needs to be protected from negative influences just as much as your daughters do.  That is self love.  That is saying, I'm too special to be spoken to that way, and that's not selfish, that's healthy.

If 'Mom's word is final' in his eyes, than I don't see any reason why you shouldn't play that card.  You are doing it to protect the little girl that is you, like a mother should.  I'm beginning to understand the 'emotional leader' role, I think a little better.  Sometimes I need to be the drill sergeant, sometimes Dr. Crumbsy, sometimes mom, or in my case, being grampy (he really has no respect for his mom, so that doesn't work for me)... .

Here's another simple thing you can to do help yourself feel more respected:  When your cold, turn up the heat.  When you are hungry, eat.  When you need air, go get it.  If you need to cry, cry.  This is about learning to recognize your own needs.  I still do it quite often, ignore those things, because they feel less important than what I'm doing at the time, or whatever.  But I am working on this daily now.  I am teaching myself to respect myself and my own needs more.  If I don't, no one around me will.  That's a lesson hard learned!

Do you display things you've made and done around you where you can take pride in them each time they catch your eye?  Do you know what your favorite ice cream flavor is, or favorite color, or favorite car, etc.?  I got to a point where these things just didn't seem to matter... .but after a discussion at group about the self-love topic, I see where it is important.  It's like knowing what your best friend puts in their coffee, it makes them feel appreciated.  We can help ourselves feel appreciated, we just need to focus on the things that will take us there.  When I get a chance, I will forward this awesome checklist they gave us at group that helped me hone in on the things that I was doing that were keeping my self esteem low.

Just to bring it all around to the initial topic, if enabling is rewarding negative behaviours, then letting him get away with belittling you is enabling.  If you don't stop it, he will just keep doing it because there is no reason not to.    

[vortex of confusion]

Those words... .'not be criticized and torn down for being me'.  That is really important, absolutely!  I take it, from my own experience, that it is your H that is the criticizer.  Aside from wearing ear plugs whenever he is in the room, how can we get this to stop? 

I have been thinking about this and I still have a difficult time wrapping my mind around the fact that he paints me white on one hand while invalidating me on the other. I am sure others can relate. I don't think my husband overtly criticizes me. I feel criticized and torn down by some of the passive aggressive behaviors that are barely perceptible. It is the micromessages (subtle nonverbal communication) that gets to me. I am sure that part of the problem is me being overly sensitive. I am working on that. It isn't just my H. My family of origin is great at the subtle digs. I have cut contact with a lot of them but the damage is still there.

I find it really difficult to accept this behavior, so I have set a boundary against it.  It has taken total commitment to catching him each and every time he does it and calling the stops to get my H to back off. 

If it was just words, it would be easier to set a boundary. With H, it is the tone and attitude. The other day, I was trying to talk to him and he didn't say anything that was outwardly bad. It was the snotty tone that he used. I told him flat out, "I am not going to continue this conversation. You are being snotty with me." It helped.

Now, I find that if I do this, he will come back with an apology and acknowledgement (="I'm sorry, I don't know why I keep doing this."  This is when we start talking emotions and things that have happened in the short term that may have caused his negative head-space.  Like I said, right now, I feel more like a therapist to him than a wife... .

I refuse to be his therapist. I have stepped away from that role because I spent too many years being his therapist and support person. I don't have it in me any more. If he needs a therapist, he can make an appointment or talk to his sponsor.

You have said so yourself, Vee, you wont let him belittle the girls.  So don't accept that he does it to you.  That little wounded girl inside of you (the one your mom taught you to ignore) needs to be protected from negative influences just as much as your daughters do.  That is self love.  That is saying, I'm too special to be spoken to that way, and that's not selfish, that's healthy.

I don't let him belittle me either. Like I said, it isn't the overt stuff that gets to me. That is easy to see and say something about. I have been known to say, "Excuse me, what did you just say?" I have been known to pick a fight (in the past) if he tried to overtly belittle me. I think he learned a long time ago not to do that because I will put him in his place right quick.

Do you display things you've made and done around you where you can take pride in them each time they catch your eye?  Do you know what your favorite ice cream flavor is, or favorite color, or favorite car, etc.?  I got to a point where these things just didn't seem to matter... .but after a discussion at group about the self-love topic, I see where it is important. 

I have a lot of things around my house that I can take pride in. I know what all of my favorites are. I know what my preferences are. I try to balance things out to make sure that everyone in the house gets to enjoy their stuff too. I want my kids to be able to assert themselves as individuals while still respecting each other.

Just to bring it all around to the initial topic, if enabling is rewarding negative behaviours, then letting him get away with belittling you is enabling.  If you don't stop it, he will just keep doing it because there is no reason not to.    

My concern isn't with belittling. It is more about figuring out what is giving him the space to be his own unique person while I am being my own unique person. It is figuring out what is supporting healthy growth versus enabling bad behaviors and encouraging stagnation.

[Leaving]

V,

From everything you've written it's clear that your husband is not happy with himself.  He may even have a lot of repressed anger ( toward himself)  which manifests as PA behaviors.  PA people find other people to express the anger that they can't ( usually spouses).   My husband used to bait me into conflict until I quit responding.  I guess that's also a form of projection where they treat you the way they really feel about themselves.

Bottom line is that anyone who doesn't like themselves has nothing to give back except negativity.  He needs to love himself in order to love you.

Your husband needs you whether it's just to have someone to clean up after him or someone to 'beat up'.  That's why he tosses you a crumb every so often- keeping you believing that there is hope for your marriage.  One day your wonderful and the next few days you're invisible and worthless. I used to say that the only purpose my husband had in our marriage was to make me as miserable as he could. Anytime he was nice to me or did anything nice for me, I paid dearly. And oh how he kept score.  One would have thought he was my bitter slave and that I had forced him to make bricks without straw.  In reality, I suppose I did.  I mean, he didn't have the emotional resources to make happiness and yet, I expected him to. 

[vortex of confusion]

From everything you've written it's clear that your husband is not happy with himself.  He may even have a lot of repressed anger ( toward himself)  which manifests as PA behaviors.  PA people find other people to express the anger that they can't ( usually spouses).   My husband used to bait me into conflict until I quit responding.  I guess that's also a form of projection where they treat you the way they really feel about themselves.

Oh no, he is not happy with himself at all. I don't know that he has ever been. And I know that he has always had a lot of anger bubbling just beneath the surface. He had to have a psych eval when he was in college so that he could do something. He said that the psychologist pointed out way back then that he seemed to have a lot of anger that was bubbling just under the surface.

Bottom line is that anyone who doesn't like themselves has nothing to give back except negativity.  He needs to love himself in order to love you.

This made me chuckle. I don't even care if he loves me. I have ONE rule in my house and that is don't be a butthole!

Your husband needs you whether it's just to have someone to clean up after him or someone to 'beat up'.  That's why he tosses you a crumb every so often- keeping you believing that there is hope for your marriage.  One day your wonderful and the next few days you're invisible and worthless. I used to say that the only purpose my husband had in our marriage was to make me as miserable as he could. Anytime he was nice to me or did anything nice for me, I paid dearly. And oh how he kept score.  One would have thought he was my bitter slave and that I had forced him to make bricks without straw.  In reality, I suppose I did.  I mean, he didn't have the emotional resources to make happiness and yet, I expected him to. 

My husband can be a jerk but it isn't the in your face kind of jerkiness. I thought I was crazy for thinking that he was a jerk but when he met my now sister in law, he was "nice" but tends to have an air of arrogance/condescension/something that I can't quite put my finger on. I spent a week with her one time and she told me how big of a jerk she thinks my husband is. She did it in a relatively nice way and she has made it clear that she will support whatever I do but she completely sees why I get frustrated.

Yep, he keeps score. I brought something up the other day and he was all, "What about the last two weeks? Haven't I done better?" Um, yes, you have been pretty good the last two weeks. Being "good" for two weeks does not automatically erase everything. And I have to laugh myself silly over this one.

Last night while I was at work, I asked him to mop the floor. There is a story here. At Christmas time, he made such a big deal about us needing a new mop. He wanted to mop the floor. So, I went out and bought a new mop. He never mopped the floor. So, I said something about him mopping the floor and how the new mop hadn't been opened yet. I got home last night and he had to brag about mopping the floor. I didn't look at it too close. I thanked him and went about my business. This morning, I am up and in the kitchen and notice that there are still icky things under the edges of the cabinets. I didn't say anything. When the kids came in, I was all, "Hey look, daddy mopped the kitchen for us." He was at work by this time. This kids actually laughed out loud at the job that he did. I am NOT going to say a word. I know I am not crazy when even the kids make comments about his inability to, I don't know, put his heart/full effort in much of anything.

I don't have much hope for having a traditional marriage with him. I am hoping that we can be nice to each other and be friends and raise our kids together. I think wanting any more than that would be setting myself up for major disappointment.

[waverider]

When you get the perception people are being disingenuous, and tally keeping the brownie points, it breeds a feeling of being used. It feeds resentment. Which shows. This in return is mirrored back on you and magnified in intensity.

To be able to recognize this and put an abrupt stop to it is important otherwise you get swept away with it. Participating in it enables it and reinforces it as 'normal" behavior.

VOC your boundary simply stated as not being a "butthole' without going into specifics is good, as the only judgement call needed is that you feel that. Too many specific are too many details to have to defend.

[Leaving]

When you get the perception people are being disingenuous, and tally keeping the brownie points, it breeds a feeling of being used. It feeds resentment. Which shows. This in return is mirrored back on you and magnified in intensity.

To be able to recognize this and put an abrupt stop to it is important otherwise you get swept away with it. Participating in it enables it and reinforces it as 'normal" behavior.

VOC your boundary simply stated as not being a "butthole' without going into specifics is good, as the only judgement call needed is that you feel that. Too many specific are too many details to have to defend.

VERY TRUE.  I've had to learn to ignore my husband's passive aggressive behaviors and it's tough to do.  He's just like V's husband and every day I live with the residue of his half-done jobs, constant delays, etc... .  The more I ignore him, the less he attempts to goad me. 

This is still no way to live in a marriage.  I'm just trying to keep the peace until I can get out of here for good.

I watched an interesting movie last night called, The Prize Winner of Defiance Ohio and I must say, as depressing as it was at times, it was also enlightening and uplifting.  I'm not so sure I could ever be the saint that woman was in her rather abusive marriage but I took away a different perspective on how I will deal with it.  BTW, it's based on a true story.

[vortex of confusion]

VERY TRUE.  I've had to learn to ignore my husband's passive aggressive behaviors and it's tough to do.  He's just like V's husband and every day I live with the residue of his half-done jobs, constant delays, etc... .  The more I ignore him, the less he attempts to goad me. 

This is still no way to live in a marriage.  I'm just trying to keep the peace until I can get out of here for good.

Now that I have identified the annoying stuff in my husband and have admitted to myself that it is annoying/bothersome, I am also identifying those behaviors in other people and am becoming less and less tolerant. I ended my relationship with my sponsor today because she reminded me to much of my mother and my husband. I want to be surrounded by healthy people. My idea of healthy/normal today is so vastly different than it was a year ago.

Like you, I am trying to keep the peace. I want to give my kids an in tact home for as long as possible. As long as things continue to improve and remain peaceful, I think I will be okay.

I watched an interesting movie last night called, The Prize Winner of Defiance Ohio and I must say, as depressing as it was at times, it was also enlightening and uplifting.  I'm not so sure I could ever be the saint that woman was in her rather abusive marriage but I took away a different perspective on how I will deal with it.  BTW, it's based on a true story.

Hmmm. . .I will have to look up that movie. I am anything but a saint. I have a mean streak that I have to be careful about. I have found that as long as I am around healthy/normal/decent people, that mean streak stays pretty dormant. It is only when I feel pushed or backed into a corner that I start behaving in ways that I don't like.

[waverider]

Now that I have identified the annoying stuff in my husband and have admitted to myself that it is annoying/bothersome, I am also identifying those behaviors in other people and am becoming less and less tolerant. I ended my relationship with my sponsor today because she reminded me to much of my mother and my husband. I want to be surrounded by healthy people. My idea of healthy/normal today is so vastly different than it was a year ago.

This actually is a real problem and why acceptance is necessary as we do start seeing things lurking in almost everyone's shadows. This is because the Disorder's traits are often just exaggerated human behaviors.

You have to ask yourself this may be a trait of a PD, but is it really a problem? We can become phobic about them

[vortex of confusion]

This actually is a real problem and why acceptance is necessary as we do start seeing things lurking in almost everyone's shadows. This is because the Disorder's traits are often just exaggerated human behaviors.

You have to ask yourself this may be a trait of a PD, but is it really a problem? We can become phobic about them

Thanks for the questioning! I have been pondering my relationship with my sponsor for a while. I didn't do anything sudden or willy nilly. In most relationships, it wouldn't have been a problem. I don't think it is PD level. I don't even know that my husband has PD level stuff. I know that the lessons and the questioning that I get here is helping me to have better relationships across the board.

In order to make progress with a sponsor or friend, I need to be able to trust them with personal stuff. One of the things that I haven't done in the past is acknowledged that somebody made me uncomfortable. In the past, I probably would have stuck with my sponsor no matter how uncomfortable I was because I was afraid of hurting her feelings or didn't want to go through the trouble of finding a new sponsor. Or, more importantly, I would dismiss my own feelings. I would have a gut feeling to something and instead of listening to it, I would ignore it or find ways to talk myself out of it.

For me, it is categorizing the types of friends and relationships that I have and what I want out of them. If it is a superficial friendship, then I am not going to be as picky. Where I feel like I got into trouble is that I didn't demand/want (not sure of the right word) more from somebody in a close relationship. It is okay to want more from my spouse than a friend that I keep at a distance. I have this vague feeling that I didn't really think that it was okay to want more out of a relationship.

[Leaving]

This actually is a real problem and why acceptance is necessary as we do start seeing things lurking in almost everyone's shadows. This is because the Disorder's traits are often just exaggerated human behaviors.

You have to ask yourself this may be a trait of a PD, but is it really a problem? We can become phobic about them

Thanks for the questioning! I have been pondering my relationship with my sponsor for a while. I didn't do anything sudden or willy nilly. In most relationships, it wouldn't have been a problem. I don't think it is PD level. I don't even know that my husband has PD level stuff. I know that the lessons and the questioning that I get here is helping me to have better relationships across the board.

In order to make progress with a sponsor or friend, I need to be able to trust them with personal stuff. One of the things that I haven't done in the past is acknowledged that somebody made me uncomfortable. In the past, I probably would have stuck with my sponsor no matter how uncomfortable I was because I was afraid of hurting her feelings or didn't want to go through the trouble of finding a new sponsor. Or, more importantly, I would dismiss my own feelings. I would have a gut feeling to something and instead of listening to it, I would ignore it or find ways to talk myself out of it.

For me, it is categorizing the types of friends and relationships that I have and what I want out of them. If it is a superficial friendship, then I am not going to be as picky. Where I feel like I got into trouble is that I didn't demand/want (not sure of the right word) more from somebody in a close relationship. It is okay to want more from my spouse than a friend that I keep at a distance. I have this vague feeling that I didn't really think that it was okay to want more out of a relationship.

I laughed at your comment about how your sponsor reminded you of your mother and husband.  I had a similar experience with a counselor last year.  I trusted my intuition this time and never went back.   I have such an aversion to abnormal behavior and her behavior didn't sit well with me.  She was stoned one day on allergy meds, curled up in her blankie and half asleep while I talked.  She would occasionally open her eyes , roll them, in response to something I said about my husband.  She wasn't dismissing what I said... .she was rolling them in disgust for my husband.  That didn't seem very professional to me. I refused to her pay her for that session.   Anyway, I'm not talking about the usual personality quirks that people have. I'm actually very easy going.  I'm talking about the obvious cues that someone is being passive aggressive/deceptive/coy, self absorbed, lewd, mean, irresponsible in destructive ways.

I meant to tell you in regard to the crumbs your husband left when he mopped that it was good that you didn't say anything to him because I'm sure he left them there as a reason for you to point out his inadequacies.  This relates to him seeking that reinforcement that ' he's no good'.  You mentioned once something about how he was never worthy in his mother's eyes.  Well, that's how my husband grew up and so he does the same thing. It's really difficult not to take their behavior personally given that it is targeted at us but actually, they are not targeting us personally, they are targeting the role that we are assuming in the relationship.  I'm the parent and adult and my husband is the man-child. It seems crazy that someone would seek that kind of reinforcement but it's a way to self sabotage and prove that mom or dad was right about them all along.

  Has your husband ever gone to any anger management therapy?  I've never been to that type of therapy but I think that it can benefit everyone who has difficulty communicating their frustrations in all relationships.  My husband doesn't know how to communicate anything negative in a direct and diplomatic way. In fact, he outright lies and says he's fine and happy when he's not.  He wasn't allowed to express any opposition or frustration as a child without being beaten or punished in some way.  So, he learned to shut up, repress and then covertly punish his parents by doing things to make them suffer in some way.  He totaled vehicles ( he's done this to two of my cars), was always late and made his parents wait for him, he would delay doing anything for them that they needed done, dropped out of HS two weeks before graduation, always ' accidentally' forgot to pay a bill or ' accidentally' did this or that, etc... .  My husband has more excuses than anyone I've ever known.  The worst part- the most dangerous part- of his PA personality is that he will even break the law just to punish me.  I'm not talking about anything like robbery.  But, he will drive down the wrong side of the road to scare me and he has cut neighbors trees to upset me and he once sprayed herbicide on a neighbor's property line even though he knew it was chemical trespassing and a federal offense which got us in trouble and we almost lost our business license.  He also blew leaves early one morning before 7am because I asked him not to and when the neighbor came out, rather pissed, to ask him to stop, he completely ignored the man ( literally, would not acknowledge him at all)  and the man called the police. 

Have you ever read any blogs or books on passive aggressive behavior?  Many years ago our first therapist told me that my husband was PA but I didn't know what it was and she didn't seem to make a big deal of it so I wasn't aware of how damaging it could be to my marriage, financial security and over-all health until it was too late.  Everyone is PA at some point in their life... .like at work or in social situations but many people with chronic PA have some other PD hinged to it.  My husband is NPD/BPD but it took ten years to get that diagnosis after the PA diagnosis.   

If you're husband is as PA as mine, then I know all too well how confusing and frustrating and down right crazy it can feel.  Their PA behaviors will become predictable.  You'll find yourself anticipating when the next one will occur. I was always wondering if it was a man thing or a ' Norman' thing ( my husband's nickname).   I spent years trying to figure out if he was learning disabled, retarded, autistic.  But I knew he wasn't because he was capable of doing the right things the right way with others, just not at home with me.  He's like two entirely different people.  In a way, one is a man the other is a child.  Guess which one I live with?   This can drive a person crazy and to be coupled with the BPD is just over the top insane at times.  Both of my therapists ( I have one at the women's shelter and one in private practice)  said that I must be an amazingly strong woman to have dealt with him and his behaviors all these years.  I feel more like an idiot actually but, I do know I'm strong and besides, they choose strong partners because they are not.  They choose partners who exhibit everything they want to be and then resent the partner for being everything they are not. 

[EaglesJuju]

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