Standing Firm in Her Storm 3...

[MaroonLiquid]

Hi MaroonLiquid,

in an enmeshed state people think of the other partner as an extension of themselves. This leads to controlling behavior and automatic attribution of emotions - you do what I say and you feel what I feel. In this state people act egocentric and have a hard time seeing the needs of their partner.

I see what you mean here.

The change in behavior you observed in your wife is a very positive sign.

I thought so too!   

She was thinking through this situation not as one but as a team of two that act independently. It is the result of you becoming stronger and taking a stand. Boundaries are very effective in breaking the sense of being able to control the other side. Your hard work on boundaries is paying off 

I agree.  Even though she has had a major dysregulation recently, it was her first one in a long time.  I think she started to change when I told her very calmly that if she divorced me, I couldn't be friends with her.  When she brought up my ex-wife and how we got along, I explained that we have biological children together and that their happiness and stability come first.  I have to believe that truth hit home with her that I can ultimately "walk away" as they aren't mine biologically.  I didn't say that to hurt her, scare her or because I would just walk away, I said it because it's true. 

We had a good weekend together again in the midst of a tragedy/crisis in her family's life as well as a fundraiser for softball.  Friday night, my wife stayed for the first half of the party while I went to my son's tournament semi-final game.  It was awesome as he won and had to play in the championship game on Saturday.  My wife said she would work the first half of the fundraiser so that I could attend his game (again)and thought that was really nice.  He won his game and after the trophy presentation, I showed up for my shift of the fundraiser and she had to leave.  While she was gone, she called in shock as her sister's ex-husband's brother passed away under very tragic and troubling circumstances on Saturday morning.  They had just found out and my wife called me in shock as they have known each other for 25 years.  I validated how hard that must have been for them to deal with and let her talk.  She said her sister was on her way down and needed her to keep the baby while she helped the family deal with the arrangements among other things.  She showed up to help me tear down the fundraiser for the evening and I just continued to let her talk and asked if she needed me to come be with her until her sister got there.  She said no and that she appreciated me trying to be there for her but she had a bunch to do to get ready for her sister.  We agreed that the next morning I would be at her house to take her car with the stuff for the fundraiser and do the first shift.  She came to relieve me so that I could go to softball practice and then afterwards, we met for dinner.  We ate and then went back to her house and put the baby to bed.  We talked for a few minutes and then we were both getting tired.  We hugged and kissed and I left.  She asked me to text when I got home and I did.  All in all it was a good weekend.

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[Grey Kitty]

  You sound great, ML.

You are starting to see one of the really wonderful things about boundaries and validation. When done right, they put the responsibility, choices, and consequences exactly where they belong.

The more negative way of stating this is that you aren't participating in the games she used to play... .and she's finding that they don't work very well for her that way and starting to find better ways to interact with you instead.   

[MaroonLiquid]

You sound great, ML.

Thanks, I am doing pretty well.  I believe I've flushed out her "divorce tactic" and therefore she dropped it.  I don't worry much about her motives at all anymore.  I go about my business and live my life now.  If I want to do something, then I do, if not, I don't.  :)on't really feel any guilt about living my life anymore.  

You are starting to see one of the really wonderful things about boundaries and validation. When done right, they put the responsibility, choices, and consequences exactly where they belong.

The more negative way of stating this is that you aren't participating in the games she used to play... .and she's finding that they don't work very well for her that way and starting to find better ways to interact with you instead.  

Last night was a perfect example.  She is keeping her nephew and he is very attached to me and he wanted me to lay down with him to fall asleep.  He fell asleep pretty quickly and my wife fell asleep next to us.  I woke her up gently and told her I would have the kids lock the door behind me when I left.  She said she was getting up in a moment and would see me out.  I waited about 20 minutes and made sure not to bother her and then decided to leave when I figured she was sleeping pretty hard.  Our daughter locked the door behind me and didn't talk to my wife until today around noon.  She has to know that I respect her and love her enough to not wake her up and also that I'm not going to always wait around either.  I respect myself in that area a lot more now as well.  Another thing is I'm not pushing affection much anymore.  I may put my arm around her or hold her hand, and we've kissed a couple of times, but I am letting her have her space and giving myself some too.  I've noticed how she is looking at me the last couple of days of me taking care of her nephew (mom and dad are both deadbeats and my wife's sister has full custody.  The mom is my wife's sister's daughter), almost as if painting me white.  She almost cries when he calls me daddy.  it is really sad.  Still haven't figured out what to do about our anniversary and how to approach it.  I will figure that out in the next day or two... .

[MaroonLiquid]

I was texting my wife this morning and everything was good.  We were talking about her nephew that she is keeping for her sister who is dealing with the family crisis.  I decided to bring up our anniversary.  I said, "I have been thinking about our anniversary on Friday.  Since it looks like you might still have the baby, I was thinking we could get some take-out from the chinese place we love, rent a movie and relax.  How do you feel about that?"  That was a couple of hours ago and she still hasn't responded.

Here was my thought process.  I was trying to be empathetic and show that I was thinking about the fact that she would have the baby and making it easier on her by getting some food I know she loves and still be able to spend time together.  Also, my goal was to minimize any opportunity she has to feel overwhelmed and possibly dysregulate by making the day a "huge deal" or her being worried about the baby being taken care of properly.  I did what I felt was right considering the whole situation, and I won't ask again.  If she doesn't respond to it, I won't feel guilty, "less than", or feel rejected.  It's her issue, I won't beg and it will be her loss.  I will just do something on my own with my kids and celebrate it my own way at that point.  Honestly, I'm fine either way. 

[Grey Kitty]

  You offered something that seems kind and reasonable.

It is one of those high pressure holiday dates that your wife is 97.5% likely to dysregulate over, no matter what you do.

Good luck.   

[MaroonLiquid]

 You offered something that seems kind and reasonable.

It is one of those high pressure holiday dates that your wife is 97.5% likely to dysregulate over, no matter what you do.

Good luck.   

Yeah, and it should be a happy time.

My wife threw me a curveball last night (regarding our anniversary tomorrow) and feel like it could be a positive.  She never answered my text yesterday regarding bringing some takeout over to her house and taking it easy because she would probably still have the baby.  We didn't talk again until she picked our daughter up from practice.  I noticed the baby wasn't with her and I asked where he was.  She said her sister came and got him yesterday afternoon.  She said she texted her yesterday mid morning (I texted her early morning) and told her sister that she needed to come get him because it was starting to become difficult to work (obviously 2 YO need a lot of attention) and wasn't fair to the kids to be responsible to watch him everyday.  I didn't know how to take it.  I took it as a positive that she wanted to spend time with me without the baby, and at the same time, didn't mention my text and therefore had nothing to do with me.  Thoughts?

[Fian]

Not sure, but here are some options off the top of my head:

Option 1 - Don't celebrate the anniversary - she never responded to your text

Option 2 - Keep to the original plan - Bring Chinese to her place

Option 3 - Suggest a more elaborate plan - the excuse of the baby no longer applies

[Grey Kitty]

Don't propose a bigger anniversary plan.

Anything that smells like you offering or asking for commitment from her goes bad. Very bad.

Either bring take out as you suggested earlier, or do nothing.

Expect her to find a way to blame you for something and dysregulate. Be ready to leave quickly and earlier than you planned... .while still hoping for the best and trying to genuinely enjoy and celebrate.

[GaGrl]

I didn't pick up anything in her reasoning about wanting to spend more time with you. It sounded as if the reason was her need to work uninterrupted.

Are you reading more into her statements than is really there?

[MaroonLiquid]

I didn't pick up anything in her reasoning about wanting to spend more time with you. It sounded as if the reason was her need to work uninterrupted.

Are you reading more into her statements than is really there?

Could be.  I guess a part of me was hoping that she was finding a way for us to spend time together.  

Last night I dropped off my daughter after softball and I stayed for a bit and talked with the oldest daughter being in bed with her (I find that so strange and completely unhealthy that the kids are taking turns sleeping with her every night).  I almost feel like it's her only way of keeping me at a safe distance physically and emotionally (like a built in excuse or a game to see if she can make me mad or just say something to know it bothers me).  it doesn't, and I find it weird at their age.  She then said she needed to "get to bed" (which I take as my cue to leave).  The last few days she is being standoffish with the "side hug" and patting me on the back when just three days ago she was giving me an I love you that was unsolicited.     So tired of the push/pull.  When I was leaving, I said "It's almost our anniversary." and she didn't say anything.  This morning I texted very simply and said, "Today being our anniversary, I pray that God would give you joy and the peace that passes all understanding today." with no response.  I won't bring it up again nor will I feel bad for not celebrating it.  I will not chase her, yet I'm sure I will be the bad guy in her mind for us not celebrating.  It must be a miserable existence to live that way.  Not my problem.  I will spend some quality time with my kids and have fun this weekend.  The sad thing is, I'm beginning to feel less and less for her as this stuff continues.  :)on't know how to feel about that development.  Is that being numb or what?  Or am I just not attracted to the unhelathy part of her now that I have been out of it... .

[formflier]

 

I think this is a healthy development for you.  I think what you texted her was very kind... .loving... considerate... .and wise.

She could flip out over it... .or she could be comforted... .that's not your issue.

Maroon,

Your progress amazes me... .keep up the good work... .the hard work.  The fruit of your work is showing.

Don't worry about your feelings... .just feel them.  You are balancing that with healthy decisions.  This has somewhat confused your wife... .(in a good way)... .keep praying... .keep working hard... .let time and God work on her heart.

Praying you have a good day!

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

I think this is a healthy development for you.  I think what you texted her was very kind... .loving... considerate... .and wise.

She could flip out over it... .or she could be comforted... .that's not your issue.

Maroon,

Your progress amazes me... .keep up the good work... .the hard work.  The fruit of your work is showing.

Don't worry about your feelings... .just feel them.  You are balancing that with healthy decisions.  This has somewhat confused your wife... .(in a good way)... .keep praying... .keep working hard... .let time and God work on her heart.

Praying you have a good day!

FF

Thanks.  I started to cry when I read this.  I feel stronger and at times discouraged (rarely now though).  It's hard knowing today is our 5th wedding anniversary and I'm treated as almost a stranger.  Doesn't make me mad because I know it's her issue and I can't do much about it except control myself.  Why do you think this is a healthy development and is confusing her?

[formflier]

Why do you think this is a healthy development and is confusing her?

She has been pressing the buttons that used to get you... .and they don't work

She took a bat to one of those buttons (car)... .and that didn't work.

So... .she is now wrestling (in her mind) with this notion that Maroon is not "broken"... .my r/s is dysfunctional... .so... .who is broken? Or something like that... .

Dude... .take time for yourself... .take a look at some pictures of good times.  Grieve... .cry... .feel your emotions.

Pray for the future... .

Remember... .God says yes... .no... .and "not yet" when you ask for things.  Not yet is very frustrating... .but it is an answer...

 

FF

[Grey Kitty]

You are losing interest in the push pull type games she plays. That is very healthy for you.

You don't participate so she doesn't get as much satisfaction from them either. Perhaps she will make healthier choices. Someday.

Hang in there. You are doing so much better.

BTW. You aren't being treated like a stranger. Strangers aren't actively ignored and given the silent treatment. This is how she treats people close to her.

  Do allow yourself to feel whatever comes up.

[MaroonLiquid]

Why do you think this is a healthy development and is confusing her?

She has been pressing the buttons that used to get you... .and they don't work

She took a bat to one of those buttons (car)... .and that didn't work.

So... .she is now wrestling (in her mind) with this notion that Maroon is not "broken"... .my r/s is dysfunctional... .so... .who is broken? Or something like that... .

Dude... .take time for yourself... .take a look at some pictures of good times.  Grieve... .cry... .feel your emotions.

Pray for the future... .

Remember... .God says yes... .no... .and "not yet" when you ask for things.  Not yet is very frustrating... .but it is an answer...

 

FF

I hear you!  I trust God regardless.

You are losing interest in the push pull type games she plays. That is very healthy for you.

You don't participate so she doesn't get as much satisfaction from them either. Perhaps she will make healthier choices. Someday.

Hang in there. You are doing so much better.

BTW. You aren't being treated like a stranger. Strangers aren't actively ignored and given the silent treatment. This is how she treats people close to her.

  Do allow yourself to feel whatever comes up.

I didn't think of her treating people close to her that way.

So this weekend I've had a blast with my kids.  Took them to see Jurassic World and  then we spent the rest of the day scouting at a softball tournament.  I haven't talked to my wife since I texted her about our anniversary.  It's been nice this weekend to not be involved in her disorder.  I love her very much, but I have lost all interest in playing those push/pull games.

[MaroonLiquid]

Sitting here thinking about us not speaking since I texted about our anniversary, I still have trouble with the fact she couldn't find it within herself to not respond.  I know it's part of her BPD traits, but still frustrating... .Its ridiculous... .

[formflier]

I still have trouble with the fact she couldn't find it within herself to not respond.

Remember... .language matters... .that's an opinion... .not a fact.

And... we'll never know why she did or didn't do something.

Try to keep your thinking a little... "less deep"... .especially about the why.

She wanted to avoid communication with you... .even after you reached out in a very ... loving... caring... compassionate way.

So... rather than deep thinking it...

I'm going to steal a line from Grey Kitty... .believe her... .she doesn't want to communicate... .leave it at that.

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

I still have trouble with the fact she couldn't find it within herself to not respond.

Remember... .language matters... .that's an opinion... .not a fact.

I understand what you are saying, and have taken what GK's said regarding "treating people close to her that way" to heart.

And... we'll never know why she did or didn't do something.

Try to keep your thinking a little... "less deep"... .especially about the why.

She wanted to avoid communication with you... .even after you reached out in a very ... loving... caring... compassionate way.

So... rather than deep thinking it...

I'm going to steal a line from Grey Kitty... .believe her... .she doesn't want to communicate... .leave it at that.

FF

My wife just called me pretty upset.  I didn't recognize it at first and may have been invalidating because of it.  She asked me if I received something from the IRS with her name on it and I said not in a while.  She said she would appreciate it if I did to give it to her.  I said I would.  Then I mentioned I sent her a team email and it "bounced back" saying her email was over quota.  She said she is trying to fix it or something to that effect.  I then said, "It sounds like you are upset about something, are you ok?"  She said, "Yeah, I'm fine.  It's mine to worry about and not your business" or something like that and rather curtly.  I said, "Wife, would you like to talk about it?"  She said, "Just please let me know if you receive anything please" and hung up.  We hadn't talked all weekend and she calls like that... .What the heck was that about?  Was she looking for comfort?  Was she trying to see if I was upset?  Should I just let it go?   Why do I feel guilty all of a sudden, or that I could have handled that differently?  ughhh... .

[MaroonLiquid]

I still have trouble with the fact she couldn't find it within herself to not respond.

Remember... .language matters... .that's an opinion... .not a fact.

I understand what you are saying, and have taken what GK's said regarding "treating people close to her that way" to heart.

And... we'll never know why she did or didn't do something.

Try to keep your thinking a little... "less deep"... .especially about the why.

She wanted to avoid communication with you... .even after you reached out in a very ... loving... caring... compassionate way.

So... rather than deep thinking it...

I'm going to steal a line from Grey Kitty... .believe her... .she doesn't want to communicate... .leave it at that.

FF

My wife just called me pretty upset.  I didn't recognize it at first and may have been invalidating because of it.  She asked me if I received something from the IRS with her name on it and I said not in a while.  She said she would appreciate it if I did to give it to her.  I said I would.  Then I mentioned I sent her a team email and it "bounced back" saying her email was over quota.  She said she is trying to fix it or something to that effect.  I then said, "It sounds like you are upset about something, are you ok?"  She said, "Yeah, I'm fine.  It's mine to worry about and not your business" or something like that and rather curtly.  I said, "Wife, would you like to talk about it?"  She said, "Just please let me know if you receive anything please" and hung up.  We hadn't talked all weekend and she calls like that... .What the heck was that about?  Was she looking for comfort?  Was she trying to see if I was upset?  Should I just let it go?   Why do I feel guilty all of a sudden, or that I could have handled that differently?  ughhh... .

    In the past, I would have started texting and calling to see if she would talk.  I didn't this time.  It almost feels like a tactic to pull me in so she can put all of her emotion she can't deal with on me.  I checked her facebook.  Haven't done that in so long.  She posted a picture that says, "She moved on and I feel sorry for you, because she overlooked your flaws, your temper, your selfishness, your inability to love anyone but yourself.  She could have anyone in the world, but she still chose you every time.  All you are now is a crease in her past, a scar on her chest, a memory that fades faster than a photograph of you in a sealed box, hidden.  Maybe now she will fight for someone who loves her, instead of someone who sucks the life out of her, never satisfied, even with her beating heart in his greedy hands."  

    Geez, why did I check it?     At least I see that she's dysregulating about something.  Not much I can do at the moment... .I shouldn't have checked it.  Now I feel stupid... .   Also, something weird I just realized.  She called my work number, not my cell phone... .Very strange... .

[Grey Kitty]

My wife just called me pretty upset.  I didn't recognize it at first and may have been invalidating because of it.  She asked me if I received something from the IRS with her name on it and I said not in a while.  She said she would appreciate it if I did to give it to her.  I said I would.  Then I mentioned I sent her a team email and it "bounced back" saying her email was over quota.  She said she is trying to fix it or something to that effect.  I then said, "It sounds like you are upset about something, are you ok?"  She said, "Yeah, I'm fine.  It's mine to worry about and not your business" or something like that and rather curtly.  I said, "Wife, would you like to talk about it?"  She said, "Just please let me know if you receive anything please" and hung up.  We hadn't talked all weekend and she calls like that... .What the heck was that about?  Was she looking for comfort?  Was she trying to see if I was upset?  Should I just let it go?   Why do I feel guilty all of a sudden, or that I could have handled that differently?  ughhh... .

1. What was it about?

No idea... .her stuff.

2. What should you do about it?

Nothing--what you did was good, and stopping there was good.

3. Why do you suddenly feel guilty?

Probably because you are still working on your own fixer/pleaser/caretaker/codependent/whatever tendencies. It is hard to watch somebody have trouble... .and let them deal with it on their own, especially when you have been trained over years to do something for people in situations like this.

First you realize you should stop doing such things, but it feel s unnatural and uncomfortable. Eventually with practice it starts to get easier and feel more 'normal' to you. Be patient with yourself, you are growing and learning

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife just called me pretty upset.  I didn't recognize it at first and may have been invalidating because of it.  She asked me if I received something from the IRS with her name on it and I said not in a while.  She said she would appreciate it if I did to give it to her.  I said I would.  Then I mentioned I sent her a team email and it "bounced back" saying her email was over quota.  She said she is trying to fix it or something to that effect.  I then said, "It sounds like you are upset about something, are you ok?"  She said, "Yeah, I'm fine.  It's mine to worry about and not your business" or something like that and rather curtly.  I said, "Wife, would you like to talk about it?"  She said, "Just please let me know if you receive anything please" and hung up.  We hadn't talked all weekend and she calls like that... .What the heck was that about?  Was she looking for comfort?  Was she trying to see if I was upset?  Should I just let it go?   Why do I feel guilty all of a sudden, or that I could have handled that differently?  ughhh... .

1. What was it about?

My wife just texted me and told me she got hit hard by the IRS today, had to make a payment arrangement and took most of her recent paycheck.  I tried to avoid this with her when the last time she dysregulated and dented my car and wouldn't agree to anything except blame me.  Everytime she dysregulates, something bad happens to her.  I validated how terrible that was to have happen to her.  She is in a rough spot, but not much I can do.  I hate when bad things happen to her.  I do love her and want to protect her, but know I can't right now.  She doesn't realize it (or maybe she does), but financially, we would be much better off if we lived in the same household.  I won't say it though... .

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife just texted me and asked if I could sit down with her and her attorney in the next ten days to finalize the divorce... .I didn't respond... .

[formflier]

 

Hmm... how do you think you should respond?

If attorney's have been hired... .why not let them discuss this?

As in... .let her attorney communicate with yours... .they talk to the clients...

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Hmm... how do you think you should respond?

If attorney's have been hired... .why not let them discuss this?

As in... .let her attorney communicate with yours... .they talk to the clients...

FF

I forgot to put what she texted before that.  First she asked what I was going to pay of her monthly payment to the IRS (keep in mind I have my own) which is ridiculous and why she is mad.  It's about money!  She is triggered and painting me black and she wants company for her misery.  I'm not going to get my attorney involved unless I have to.  It costs me money.  This is just about her trying to trigger me.  This is part of her cycle.  When she gets triggered during a money crisis, than she tries to put it on me and make me her whipping post.  The sad thing is, she is the cause of her own crap by ignoring it.  I won't be her whipping post.

As far as responding, I don't feel I need to.  At first, I was thinking of responding, "The next ten days don't work for me", then I thought about responding, "Fine, lets get this done because I'm tired of your $hit."  Then once I calmed down, I really feel I need to let her sit with her own stuff.

[joshbjoshb]

Maroon, it's my first time reading your post, I believe. I can see you are doing tremendous progress and that's good for you. But it seems to me that you didn't work enough of yourself.

One of the biggest issues for people who live with BPD that they tend to be pleasers and co-dependents. We don't even realize it ourselves, but we kind of wanting our wives to give us self esteem and self image. They, in turn, can't provide it (and actually do the opposite) and we are getting more upset that our needs are not being met.

If you will be a happy person that doesn't need her emotionally, you will be much better off.

Your anniversary, for example, would have been a great time to be together. But guess what my friend, in order to celebrate you need her and she is not here yet. So you offered, and she didn't respond. This is where you had to stop. But you felt bad, you wanted that closeness (maybe you felt that you NEED it) so you kept on pressing the issue. That wasn't a good idea.

You might have to take some time to mourn the wife you wanted to have and you don't have, but in the end of the process you must come out someone that doesn't need his wife to provide his emotional needs. You are strong, independent, and also compassionate towards your suffering spouse (she really does, BTW), but also understanding that she is not very capable of providing you almost any emotional needs.

I know it's sad but it's the truth. Only when you get that, you can start to be happy.

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife called me earlier and asked if I had gotten her several text messages since last night.  She wanted to talk IRS debt.  I told her I would call her back as I was asleep.  She said ok.  I'm feeling anxious because I know she is triggered about money and don't want to fall into old traps.  I'm pretty confident from past history that talking to her right now isn't wise.  I am wise enough to not want to fall into old traps.   .  Hate these cycles she goes through.  She can't see the forest for the trees and everything is everyone else's fault.

For the previous poster, I don't look to her for my happiness and haven't in a long while.  A year ago, I did.  Living by myself for a year has helped me a ton.  I work on myself all the time and better for it.  I'm just sick of dealing with her crap at times.  My needs haven't been met in a long while and honestly, I know she is incapable of meeting those at this point.  I have come to terms with it. 

[Fian]

Since the last conversation about money resulted in her taking a bat to your car, it is probably better to talk on the phone.

[MaroonLiquid]

Since the last conversation about money resulted in her taking a bat to your car, it is probably better to talk on the phone.

Well, I talked with her about it over text.  She asked me for money and I validated her being upset about what happened.  I told her considering we pay for two separate households that I have none extra to give her.  She said, "Are you saying you won't help me and the kids at all?".  I asked her in what other ways besides money could I help her?"  She responded with, "Half of what was taken from me.  If I'm reading your texts correctly, do you not plan on doing anything?  Never mind the last text.  Also you need to sit down with me on Friday and work out everything else!"  She started texting and calling repeatedly (left a message about what time she was available on Friday) and I texted back and said, "I'm spending time with ML's son (which I am) and will text you later."  She said, "You need to stop stalling and take care of this today, ML."  I didn't respond. 

[sweetheart]

Hi ML,

I have been following. You are right, your wife is triggered over money issues understandably.

If you can continue to validate how worrying this must be for her, whilst saying NO to anything else, this will pass as always.

Perhaps best over the phone because of the car incident last time.

Remember you do not have to explain your NO, it is just that. Your calm and compassionate  approach with her will help her navigate this current crisis.

[Fian]

My personal approach is to give direct answers (which can get me into trouble   ).  In this case, though, I think it might help as she is not respecting your evasive answers.  If your decision is that you won't be helping her financially, then I think it is best to say it, maybe at the end of a SET.  I would personally give a brief explanation as to why (maybe, your finances are separate now, and you are trying to improve your finances too), however I guess that may be viewed as JADEing.  Personally, I would like to know why a person is telling me No.

[MaroonLiquid]

Hi ML,

I have been following. You are right, your wife is triggered over money issues understandably.

If you can continue to validate how worrying this must be for her, whilst saying NO to anything else, this will pass as always.

That is the plan.  Question... .My wife seems to "sidestep" my validation at times now.  Let me give you an example.  Yesterday, I said, "This situation has to be extremely difficult on you, especially when you have so much going on with the kids.  It sucks when there is no easy solution. I would be pissed and freaking out too!"  Her response, "I'm not mad and I'm not freaking out.  Actually I have peace in the midst of this."     Is that why you have texted and called me a bunch (extinction burst)?    

Perhaps best over the phone because of the car incident last time.

Remember you do not have to explain your NO, it is just that. Your calm and compassionate  approach with her will help her navigate this current crisis.

I did this over text as I learned my lesson.     My car thanks me.  I try to be as calm and compassionate as I can be.  I know that is what she is seeking ultimately. Someone that can stay calm in the midst of her raging storm.  i won't be a whipping post though.

My personal approach is to give direct answers (which can get me into trouble   ).  In this case, though, I think it might help as she is not respecting your evasive answers. 

Why do you think my answers are evasive?  I feel like when I say, "Because we have separate households to pay for, I don't have any extra money" is being direct.  She was the original reason why we have separate households.  I have reminded her of that before, but quit as I didn't want her to feel any worse than she already did about herself.

If your decision is that you won't be helping her financially, then I think it is best to say it, maybe at the end of a SET.  I would personally give a brief explanation as to why (maybe, your finances are separate now, and you are trying to improve your finances too), however I guess that may be viewed as JADEing.  Personally, I would like to know why a person is telling me No.

See last comment... .I believe that gives an explanation.  She may not like it but its the truth... .Thoughts?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[sweetheart]

ML, if she sidesteps the validation, then just accept that she perhaps wanted to vent. As long as the vent doesn't meander off into meaness and she knows where you stand on the money/IRS issues then if you can listen and keep validating the underlying emotion then this will help diffuse the situation.

I've got some other thoughts but will come back to them later, just off on school run. 

[Fian]

Based on your last response, it does sound like you gave her a direct answer.

[Grey Kitty]

Go light on WHY you aren't giving her any money, except that you have separate finances.

Be clear that you won't be giving her money for (whatever she is asking for money for this time).

You don't have to repeat yourself often but don't equivocate.

You can refuse to discuss it at bad times. You can say "no". Avoid "maybe" type answers. Don't let her get her hopes up.

[MaroonLiquid]

Go light on WHY you aren't giving her any money, except that you have separate finances.

Be clear that you won't be giving her money for (whatever she is asking for money for this time).

You don't have to repeat yourself often but don't equivocate.

You can refuse to discuss it at bad times. You can say "no". Avoid "maybe" type answers. Don't let her get her hopes up.

This is definitely what I'm trying to do.  I even offered help in non-monetary ways to show that I am concerned.  My wife and I haven't spoken since I told her I was spending time with my son and that I would text her later.  

[MaroonLiquid]

Go light on WHY you aren't giving her any money, except that you have separate finances.

Be clear that you won't be giving her money for (whatever she is asking for money for this time).

You don't have to repeat yourself often but don't equivocate.

You can refuse to discuss it at bad times. You can say "no". Avoid "maybe" type answers. Don't let her get her hopes up.

This is definitely what I'm trying to do.  I even offered help in non-monetary ways to show that I am concerned.  My wife and I haven't spoken since I told her I was spending time with my son and that I would text her later.  

Well, since I told my wife "No" regarding money, she is now going through another extinction burst by not communicating that our daughter won't be at practice.  She does this to "get back at me" when she gets mad.  Frankly, I'm not going to put up with it and I don't put my daughters before the team, ever.  Her not bringing her isn't hurting me, it's hurting our daughter who needs the reps.  We haven't had our parent/player commitments/expectations meeting yet (happening on 16 July), but included in that meeting will deal with consequences from absences.  This is hard because her mom is doing this, not our daughter so I don't know how to deal with that other than to remove her from team activities for a couple of weeks.  My wife has to know there is consequences for her actions.  Any ideas?

[Fian]

I would say to go carefully on this one, for the sake of your daughter.  It isn't fair that your daughter is in the middle of your marital issue, and while your wife is the one who put her there, you don't need to add to it either.  Can you offer your daughter a make-up session for the time lost (I know baseball is a team sport, so maybe it isn't possible)?

[MaroonLiquid]

I would say to go carefully on this one, for the sake of your daughter.  It isn't fair that your daughter is in the middle of your marital issue, and while your wife is the one who put her there, you don't need to add to it either. 

I agree that my daughter shouldn't be punished, however... .

Can you offer your daughter a make-up session for the time lost (I know baseball is a team sport, so maybe it isn't possible)?

If my wife isn't speaking to me (ST), then she won't let me around my daughter to make that practice up.  My hands are tied.  That's why I need advice.  My daughter shouldn't suffer, but she is suffering at my wife's hands and since she isn't mine biologically, not a whole lot I can do.  I will not give her treatment different than any other player.

[Fian]

You could try and text the punishment message to your wife.  That gives her the ability to negotiate directly with you instead of involving your daughter, at least initially.

[MaroonLiquid]

You could try and text the punishment message to your wife.  That gives her the ability to negotiate directly with you instead of involving your daughter, at least initially.

Yeah, that was my plan.  I guess DEARMAN is the best technique for this type of disucssion?

[sweetheart]

ML how old is your stepdaughter ? Just curious.

If it were me I would wait and address all the parents as a whole when telling your wife about the consequences of missed games.

If you address this with your wife directly this might create an opening for more conflict which is what you want to avoid.

[MaroonLiquid]

My daughter is almost 13.  I thought about taking care of it at the meeting also which is pretty non-confrontational and it lays it out there as not directing it at anyone person.

[sweetheart]

ML non-confrontational is better and it keeps it away from your relationship. Nice neutral territory 

[MaroonLiquid]

ML non-confrontational is better and it keeps it away from your relationship. Nice neutral territory 

Went to softball practice tonight for All-Stars that all three of my daughters play on currently (they are all on my select team but we aren't playing tournaments until All-Stars is over) and my wife brought our daughter (and older daughter with her) to that practice but not to our select practices earlier this week.  I gave some stuff to my ex-wife that my kids left at my apartment over the weekend and said, "Hey guys." To my wife and older daughter sitting in the bleachers.  My wife didn't say a word but our oldest daughter talked to me a little bit.  I talked to my ex wife and my son at the same time and it didn't bother me at all that my wife didn't speaks. In fact it was kind of a relief!   . Anyway, GK's comment has really stuck with me that my wife only treats people this way that she's really close to.  That's unfortunate.

[sweetheart]

It is unfortunate 

[Grey Kitty]

Question for you as a coach. If another kid (not yours) was missing practice, and it was weird crap the parent did and not the kid's fault, what would you do?

[MaroonLiquid]

Question for you as a coach. If another kid (not yours) was missing practice, and it was weird crap the parent did and not the kid's fault, what would you do?

I will think about this one.

So this weekend, we had a softball tournament and the whole weekend was weird.  My wife doing everything she could to ignore me except when she wanted to.  I noticed my wife and our oldest daughter came back from getting food, I asked our daughter where the place was located and she looked to my wife for info.  My wife gave me the evilest look and my daughter gave me this weird look and smiled as if to say, "What the heck?"  Other people saw and kind of turned away.  My wife began talking to me at times and we would joke around at times.  Still awkward and didn't go out of my way to communicate.  This morning we had to show back up for the tournament and we really didn't say anything to each other and she passed me like I didn't exist.  I helped to warm up the girls and several people within where she was standing wished me a happy Father's Day.  She didn't and neither did her kids.  In the stands after that, she said to our oldest daughter, "It's Fathers Day and since you don't have a father around, it's my day."  It was bait and I completely ignored it.  I didn't let it bother me nor did I try to make it awkward for them.  A few minutes later, our youngest daughter asked her for money to go to the concession stand to get a Gatorade and I said, "Here, I have an extra one."  She said, "Thanks."  A few minutes later, she mentioned she was going to pick some food up and I asked her if I gave her money would she grab me something.  She looked at me in front (loud enough for everyone to hear) of everyone and said, "I'm not going to do that."  When leaving this afternoon, she made a veiled attempt at trying to communicate with me and I should have seen it coming a mile away.  I was tired and wasn't dialed in to her crap.  She asked me for a batting average for one of the girls ( ) and I gave it to her.  We were talking about some specifics regarding the game today until her kids got in the car.  My son said to her, "I was going to see if y'all could come swimming with us."  She said, "You were seeing huh?"  Whatever the hell that means but my son responded yeah.  She said, "Let me talk to your dad for a moment, okay?" and he said, "OK" and got in the car.  She then said, "My attorney is "giving us" an hour of his time to hammer out the divorce, so you need to call him and set an appointment in the next two weeks or we will set a mediation."  I said, I will see what I have going on."  She said, "There is nothing you have going on more important than getting this done."  I said, "As I said, I will check my schedule."  She said, "This is the most cost effective way as if you keep stalling, we'll set mediation and then be ready for trial."  I said, "OK" nonchalantly and walked off.  On the way home, my kids fell asleep and I began to get emotional.  I sat with my feelings and honestly, I don't know how to handle this.  When I got home, she sent me an email with a CC to her attorney going over what we talked about.  I guess she is really pissed that I am holding my ground on this tax situation.  Frankly, I'm just about done.  :)on't know how much more I can take.  She is trying to really get at me and is frustrated that she can't I guess.

[Fian]

My heart goes out to you on this right now.  I have never personally gone through divorce, but I am sure that it is (strongest adjective possible).

I believe you were thinking that the divorce was just a tactic.  It now appears that she actually wants a divorce.  On the other hand, this is happening when she is painting you as black as she can.

Looking at the words, it appears that she is trying to make you think the divorce is inevitable so an amicable divorce would be in your best interest.  As I said above, I don't know much about divorce, however if you fought it tooth and nail, it doesn't sound like she has the financial assets to go to trial.  Just keep in mind that if you go this route, expect her to be as nasty as she can possibly be to try and get you to agree to a divorce.

[sweetheart]

Hi ML,   

It does appear because she cannot get you to 'bail her out' financially that divorce for her will be inevitable.

I don't know much about divorce or mediation, but like fian said I would opt for as low conflict as possible.

The push from your wife is becoming more frequent and consolidated, so maybe think about protecting yourself emotionally and practically from what a divorce will mean for you.

I understand this is not what you want, but it does seem as though this is the course your wife is going to take.

What can you do to make this process easier for you ? Can your wife go ahead and divorce you without involvement from you ? Sorry if this is a dumb question   

[MaroonLiquid]

I forgot to mention our daughter found out this weekend from my daughters that her mom knew about our softball practice last week and she was never told.  Wonder how that went down.

On the other hand, this is happening when she is painting you as black as she can.

This.  She only brings it up (and it escalates each time) when i don't give in and give her her way (usually money) and the fact that she was trying to ruin Father's Day for me because she is ruining a chance for her kids to have a father.  That crossed a threshold for me finally... .

Looking at the words, it appears that she is trying to make you think the divorce is inevitable so an amicable divorce would be in your best interest.

This also.  I still believe it's a tactic (called her bluff already and she backed down) that she escalates each time she dysregulates because I don't meet her "demands", which I'm finally done with.  

Hi ML,   

It does appear because she cannot get you to 'bail her out' financially that divorce for her will be inevitable.

I don't know much about divorce or mediation, but like fian said I would opt for as low conflict as possible.

The push from your wife is becoming more frequent and consolidated, so maybe think about protecting yourself emotionally and practically from what a divorce will mean for you.

I understand this is not what you want, but it does seem as though this is the course your wife is going to take.

What can you do to make this process easier for you ? Can your wife go ahead and divorce you without involvement from you ? Sorry if this is a dumb question   

After the weekend and the crap she pulled, I reached my limit.  I can't live in this poopy diaper anymore.   I have decided to reply to her and her attorney with a list of the items that I want in order to dissolve the marriage.  I will also say that if that everything is agreed to and the decree is satisfatory, I will sign it.  She will not see this coming.  I think she thinks I will stall and stall.  Understand, I'm not doing this for her to backdown, I'm doing this for me.  I'm prepared for the marriage to end.  I'm heartbroken to say that, but I can't play with her sickness any longer.  It's time.  It's somewhat scary to be here, but freeing at the same time.  The only way for me out of this ending in divorce is for her to seek help.   That's her choice... .

[GaGrl]

At some point, depending upon how far your wife pushes the divorce, the financial situation must be handled.  That's when you need your own lawyer and your own protection.  The way in which you've divided obligations and specified responsibility so far is good.  She may think that you will cave when it comes to a settlement agreement.  That should not happen.

Isn't your marriage relatively short-term?  Five years?  No need to take on more than what your state guidelines might be for a marriage of that length, especially for such clear-cut items as 401K loans and 50% of joint tax obligations.

You'll need to check in on the Legal board.

[Grey Kitty]

After the weekend and the crap she pulled, I reached my limit.  I can't live in this poopy diaper anymore.   I have decided to reply to her and her attorney with a list of the items that I want in order to dissolve the marriage.  I will also say that if that everything is agreed to and the decree is satisfatory, I will sign it.  She will not see this coming.  I think she thinks I will stall and stall.  Understand, I'm not doing this for her to backdown, I'm doing this for me.  I'm prepared for the marriage to end.  I'm heartbroken to say that, but I can't play with her sickness any longer.  It's time.  It's somewhat scary to be here, but freeing at the same time.  The only way for me out of this ending in divorce is for her to seek help.   That's her choice... .

If you haven't done it yet, I've got a couple suggestions here.

Suggestion zero: Post your strategy on the legal/custody board and run it by your lawyer first. Your wife is using this whole divorce thing to yank you around / create conflict / be part of the fight. You need GOOD advice before you jump into this shark's pool.

Suggestion one: Have all communications about the divorce with her through her lawyer.

She's using this as a game and leverage. If she's doing it through her lawyer, she's forced to be a bit more serious rather than just use it as a bigger card to play to manipulate you.

Suggestion two: Decide what divorce means to you. Will you treat her differently? Will you treat her kids differently? Will you consider yourself single, and (perhaps, eventually) start dating again? Or does it just mean you never have to discuss anything financial again with her.

And lastly... .stop thinking about and talking about her seeking help. As you are stepping farther away from her, your input/influence/interest in her mental health should be less, not more.

Hang in there. It is gonna be a tough ride!

[sweetheart]

ML you answered my thoughts about how much more you could put up with. I found myself thinking about your situation recently and how hard you have worked on all levels to change yourself to the person you have become today.

I am sorry that it has come to this because I know that this is not what you wanted. That said I believe that the approach you are taking is a positive step for you to assert your needs and to continue to look after yourself.

Make sure you post on Legal.

[MaroonLiquid]

Suggestion zero: Post your strategy on the legal/custody board and run it by your lawyer first. Your wife is using this whole divorce thing to yank you around / create conflict / be part of the fight. You need GOOD advice before you jump into this shark's pool.

OK... .I will do that... .

Suggestion one: Have all communications about the divorce with her through her lawyer.

She's using this as a game and leverage. If she's doing it through her lawyer, she's forced to be a bit more serious rather than just use it as a bigger card to play to manipulate you.

That's a good idea.  I agree she is using this as a game and for leverage.  It's an extinction burst and pushing the divorce has worked for her at times.  I don't want to go this route, but where does the game end with her?  That's what I'm having a huge problem with.  So far, I get tougher and she sees that and finds a new way to dig her heels in and try and get me to cave.  I can't believe she keeps acting like a fool and seems as if she doesn't want things to change.  I wish our marriage could work, but that takes two, and for the past year, there's only been one of us.

Suggestion two: Decide what divorce means to you. Will you treat her differently? Will you treat her kids differently? Will you consider yourself single, and (perhaps, eventually) start dating again? Or does it just mean you never have to discuss anything financial again with her.

Divorce means I am no longer married to her.  Does that mean I don't want to be involved romantically with her?  No, but I don't know how I do if she isn't in T.  Is my heart still involved emotionally with her?  Of course it is.  Will I start dating again eventually?  At some point.  I'm wired to share my life with someone.  I thought that someone was her.  It may still be, but I can't bet on that nor put my life on hold.  As far as the kids, I don't even know where to begin with that one.  It breaks my heart for them.  I would love to be involved with their life, but... .Our daughter playing for my softball team is now a big question mark.  My wife didn't bring her to practice last week twice because she was mad.  That isn't fiar to my daughter nor to my team.  I have to think of my team first.  My ex-wife made the comment when we were talking that when my wife would see me having fun talking to her or other people over the weekend, then she would try and get close to me and start talking.  If I was just trying to talk to her, she would ignore me or try and embarrass me.  She said, "It's almost like she doesn't want you but doesn't want anyone else to have you, or maybe she just wants you to be miserable too because she is miserable and destroying her life."  I've has so many people tell me recently that I won't see what my wife really feels about me until I am no longer in the picture on any level and therefore not her whipping post.  Of course I know what I have read regarding pwBPD, so I feel very torn there.  I wonder what the kids think about me now that I have been out of the house for almost a year and not there day to day with their mom.  I wonder if they think differently about me or be even more mad at me because I'm not there.  I know I can't worry about that, but I do.  I hate to see them hurt.  I know they see her dysregulate and have to have serious questions.

And lastly... .stop thinking about and talking about her seeking help. As you are stepping farther away from her, your input/influence/interest in her mental health should be less, not more.

Hang in there. It is gonna be a tough ride!

I just meant that when I do send this to her attorney and if she tries to back off of it, I have to have some boundaries regarding having a relationship with her.  I was trying to think one step ahead, know what I mean?  I know people question my sanity, but I am still very much in love with her.  I'm just very detached from her daily drama and therefore her health mentally and emotionally is still very important to me. 

ML you answered my thoughts about how much more you could put up with. I found myself thinking about your situation recently and how hard you have worked on all levels to change yourself to the person you have become today.

I am sorry that it has come to this because I know that this is not what you wanted. That said I believe that the approach you are taking is a positive step for you to assert your needs and to continue to look after yourself.

Make sure you post on Legal.

Thanks.  I'm dealing with a lot of emotion today.  I'm just drained.  Yesterday was a gut-punch on fathers day and taking a couple of days of reflection to let some stuff sink in and also to see where I go from here if anywhere.  I don't want to make an emotional decision, but I want to be smart. 

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .