Owning my part of the issue... do I need to own "half" of it... or measure it?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I want to make sure I understand... .and own "my part" of this issue.

Continuation of: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=278473.0

FF

[formflier]

I want to make sure I understand... .and own "my part" of this issue.

Continuation of: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=278473.0

FF

[formflier]

 This is what I typed in the email.  My wife claims... .thinks... .feels... that my use of the word anything means I want an equivalent r/s with this woman.  Equivalent to my wife...

I'm asking the lady for a copy of her CV style resume... .

Start of email.

Any chance I can get you to send me a copy?  It was a very impressive package.  I'm looking to model mine along the same lines.

I'm always open to chatting with you for advice on dealings with "formflier's county government name" government... .grants... .anything really

end of email

[Notwendy]

FF, I know it is a matter of perspective, but I see the word "anything" as being in context of the politics of the job- meaning she does not have to fear saying the right thing politically with you.

As you mentioned, both of you are politically conservative. If her job is in a politically liberal environment, then she may not feel she can openly discuss her point of view- and this could happen vice versa as politics are a hot topic these days. I see this as you ascertaining that she is in a safe position to discuss the politics of her job with you.

This is just how I see it and it is in context of all your interactions. Some men are flirts, and I take what they say in context of their behaviors. A statement like this from a flirt might seem ambiguous, but if I know the man to be a  married family guy who doesn't flirt, I think nothing of this.

[formflier]

 

Notwendy... .you pretty much have my intent.

I was the first person these people (wife and husband) had a r/s with here.  Many hours on phone with both of them.

They are not from here.  I live in a rural... .beautiful place.  The people here are clannish... .multi-generational issues abound.  

Many issues that are faced today... stem from arguments among grandfathers... and great grandfathers.  I am "first generation" here.  My parents moved here... .I grew up my entire life here... .but... .I'm still somewhat of an outsider.

These people know they are outsiders coming in to try and help.  For context sake... .there is nobody... .and I mean nobody... from this county that is/was qualified to run the library... .sad but true.

So... not really liberal or conservative in the national politics point of view... .it's complicated.

Ok... .rabbit trail over... .but trying to put context around this... .and my professional actions.  

Also personal actions... .this is a small place.  Everyone knows everyone... .and "their business"... .I have... .and still have full intentions of carrying on friendship with this family.  (I realize they may feel otherwise... .given recent events and emails)

Last bit of context:  I have not spoken to the lady since December.  I have seen them in public... .shook the husbands hand... we sort of patted each other on the back... .very warm with each other.  I kinda waved at her and said hey...

I have exchanged emails and texts with husband... .and also have had phone conversations with him... .very relaxed... .unguarded "dudish" kind of conversations... .

FF

[123Phoebe]

I have mixed feelings about the "ask me anything" comment. I see where Skip's interpretation makes sense, but in context of a work related e mail, I would have assumed that "anything" was in context of anything work related. One could look at this with suspicion, but in a work related context, I tend to err on the side of work. Now, if there was a progression of discussion from work topics to more personal ones, I might become guarded.

In a sense there was...  There was talk of "praying for", "worried FF might move out of the area", FF's children's happiness and what they might enjoy were involved in the exchange, where this woman will be on a particular date... . There's an "emotional connection".

Looking at it from a possible BPD perspective, this woman is horning in, intruding upon FF's wife's life and her connection to her husband (FF).  So what does W do, what is her emotional reaction, how does she act this out?  She horns in, intruding dramatically into FF's email and their "relationship", blowing it up.

FF, I sincerely believe (feel) that there's an emotional disconnect between you and your wife that has (not) been there long before this incident.  I'm not placing blame on you or anything like that, her behavior can be atrocious.  

[Notwendy]

But where does it cross the line? Asking someone to pray for you is a common thing in the conservative Christian community. ( I have several friends who are of this denomination).

The conservative christian community seems to be very tight knit and connected like a family but I don't think it appears to be sexual to me. This is the perspective from someone outside of it.

People sometimes bring up the topic of kids with me since they know I am a parent. If I were to consider relocating, one of my questions would be would my H and  kids be happy there?  If I had a wife and kids, then I would possibly bring in topics like schools, or things my wife would like to do.

Emotional connection at work is possible. There are people who make the workplace more enjoyable, and also people who are just miserable to be with.

Where I get concerned is if anyone were to talk about something between them and their spouse, marital issues, sexual topics, their own personal feelings, revealing too much information, but it is possible to feel a connection to a co-worker and have it not cross the line.

I guess that line can feel different to someone with BPD.

[123Phoebe]

I guess that line can feel different to someone with BPD.

Mmm hmm

[Notwendy]

Phoebe- I have a thought - could it be projection ( not that wife is cheating ) but a projection of a lack of awareness of boundaries? If someone with BPD doesn't have a sense of boundaries- personal or otherwise, then they could feel threatened by any sense of connection with their spouse?

For instance, I don't read things into this because I am aware of my boundaries. Because I am aware of my boundaries I can appreciate that someone else has them. Because I can manage my boundaries in the workplace, I know that others can have that ability too. ( and recognize when they don't)

But if I don't have an awareness of boundaries, then I can't tell the difference between a work relationship and one that may threaten my marriage. So any connection feels like a betrayal?

[123Phoebe]

Phoebe- I have a thought - could it be projection ( not that wife is cheating ) but a projection of a lack of awareness of boundaries? If someone with BPD doesn't have a sense of boundaries- personal or otherwise, then they could feel threatened by any sense of connection with their spouse?

For instance, I don't read things into this because I am aware of my boundaries. Because I am aware of my boundaries I can appreciate that someone else has them. Because I can manage my boundaries in the workplace, I know that others can have that ability too. ( and recognize when they don't)

But if I don't have an awareness of boundaries, then I can't tell the difference between a work relationship and one that may threaten my marriage. So any connection feels like a betrayal?

Notwendy, I will have to give this more thought and don't have time right now-- work is calling me out!

Quickly, and I could be so wrong... . W might be extremely jealous and fearful of what appears to be an easy breezy relaxed connection between FF and coworker, something that's lacking in their marriage.

[Notwendy]

Quickly, and I could be so wrong... . W might be extremely jealous and fearful of what appears to be an easy breezy relaxed connection between FF and coworker, something that's lacking in their marriage.



Ooh, I think you are on to something. I have felt this too. Our most intimate relationships are the toughest. I remember feeling some jealousy over a close friendship my H had with a school friend- not because it was sexual but because, it was easy. It is easier to be a casual friend than a spouse or a family member- we are not as vulnerable.

This may also explain why my H has been jealous of some friends I have known since childhood. They are like brothers to me.

Also, pw BPD are defensive, and we tend to walk on eggshells. When I am with my H, I tend to be reserved. He gets jealous of the friends I have- male or female ( I mostly have female friends) when he sees me not walking on eggshells with them.

[Skip]

I have exchanged emails and texts with husband... .and also have had phone conversations with him... .very relaxed... .unguarded "dudish" kind of conversations... .

formflier, you're misleading yourself if you think this is about one word in one sentence.

I have exchanged emails and texts with husband... .and also have had phone conversations with him... .very relaxed... .unguarded "dudish" kind of conversations... .

This only means you don't feel threatened. Your friend may have wanted her husband in contact with you so that he doesn't feel threatened by this.

This doesn't help your wife.

How would you feel if your wife was having a private email exchanges with another man?  I will tell you, when this happens, its more about what we don't know than anything else.

There is a trust issue here.  She is BPD, you know that, in it already comes with built in trust issues.

Remember the Billy Graham Rule?  I'm not trying to add a religious context to this, but I'm pointing out that he knew how vulnerable he was to having his actions misinterpreted so he lived by this rule. He never had a sex scandal - how many high profile religious leaders lived their life without one?

Again, I'm not accusing or suggestion you had an affair.  I am trying to tell you that you will not get far if you do not put on your empathy hat on and try to see her part of the issue from her shoes and build your approach from that point out.

And as an aside, as a member, I don't want to look at this based on the selection of one word, in one sentence, in one email.  Your wife is a human and her reaction is multifaceted - have you been less attentive to her, how do you speak about this other women, how attractive is she, how many emails, the tone, were you writing her nicely when you and you wife were struggling, and other ethereal and perceived notions.

I don't agree with how she responded - no one will - but there are two parts to what happened (hers and yours) and I think it will help to look at them separately as you get ready to deal with this.

[Notwendy]

I'm reposting a topic that Phoebe brought up for the sake of discussion here.

Quickly, and I could be so wrong... . W might be extremely jealous and fearful of what appears to be an easy breezy relaxed connection between FF and coworker, something that's lacking in their marriage.



I think you are on to something. I have felt this too. Our most intimate relationships are the toughest. I remember feeling some jealousy over a close friendship my H had with a school friend- not because it was sexual but because, it was easy. It is easier to be a casual friend than a spouse or a family member- we are not as vulnerable.

The question I have is this? Is it wrong to have a connection with someone else? Do we follow our boundaries or appease the ones of the spouse with BPD? Also these work relationships can be a reality check for us- a tie to the healthy world. In this sense, this is a threat to the pwBPD who gains power and validity through our isolation.

I found that when I was a stay at home mom, I was very vulnerable to my H's blaming and raging and my world got very restricted.  Work for me gave me a sense of validation and a way to interact with other people.

I also restricted my world because of my H's accusations of betrayal. In fact, I felt so slutty and ashamed of boys I had dated before I ever met my H. He dug up info about my old boyfriends and even raged about a "crush" that went no where. I really wanted to be the best wife to my H, loyal and faithful yet I could not change the fact that I had cared for other people before I met him ( and he knew that before we were married).

I didn't see a favorite rock singer because my H knew I liked his music and considered that a betrayal.

If I talked on the phone to a friend ( female) when he is home in the evenings, he is jealous because I "don't talk to him like that".



Our spouses may not like our work connections, but they could be a source of sanity. Should we give them up just because it feels like a betrayal to a spouse with BPD?

[Notwendy]

Skip, does this mean a job related private e mail is wrong?

Do our spouses have to see any e mails we send to the opposite gender?

Please explain- because I don't think I understand what you are asking. If we act so that our spouses are not threatened, are we being considerate or walking on eggshells?

[Skip]

Skip, does this mean a job related private e mail is wrong?

Do our spouses have to see any e mails we send to the opposite gender?

Please explain- because I don't think I understand what you are asking. If we act so that our spouses are not threatened, are we being considerate or walking on eggshells?

Notwendy, the most important thing is not to think there is a universal truth at play here.   One wife might have a value system that accepts open relations - another might have a value system in line with Billy Graham.

I know this begs the question about what happens if we have one of these values and our partner has another.  The answer is that there is a big problem that needs to be resolved (and it may not be resolvable).

On this aspect of the relationship dispute between FF and wife - or any of us - if we go in with a self-righteous attitude we only widen the divide.

Solving this doesn't necessarily mean FF can't interact professionally with another women - it means that he may need to change his boundaries.

My doctor's nurse is present for every exam.  It doesn't affect his ability to practice medicine.

[Notwendy]

I think I get what you are saying here- not to be self righteous.

[formflier]

formflier, you're misleading yourself if you think this is about one word in one sentence.

I don't believe it.  But this is her clearly stated position... .

History here... .I have modified my "behavior" towards women many... .many times in the past.  I have had that "behavior" verified by many trusted men and women.  People that my wife vouched for and agreed were neutral and had "our" best interests at heart.

My wife has agreed that I have changed behavior... many times... .yet she would invent new reasons why the bar should be moved... .that my behavior change... .and she would not change hers... and the reason she could not change hers... .was because of my misbehavior (perceived) .

So... ."behavior change" on my part with how I interact with other women... .professional and personally... .is not on the table as an opening to help this.

I'm more than fine to be empathetic with her position... .I can see myself having behavior change to better suit her wants if she demonstrates lasting behavior change... .

But... .I'm done chasing the moving bar.

A bit of detour there... .

A do see the need to look at it from her perspective and build from there... if possible.

FF

[formflier]

I think I get what you are saying here- not to be self righteous.

I get this as well... .I really do.

It is open to negotiation on my part.  I do have several non-negotiables... .I need to think about that.

Me changing my behavior and my wife not changing hers... .in NOT on the table.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Formflier: I think you have a good take on it. You are willing to compromise, but your wife has to be willing to, also. I hope the therapist isn't too heavy on either side of this. That seems to be the issue I'm sometimes having in MC. Because BPDh is resistant to change, and zones out, it seems the focus seems to rest on me "not setting off his anger, or provoking him". I get that to a large degree, but if his anger is never addressed in our therapy, it leaves me feeling somewhat deflated. I hope your T addresses the boundary issues about what your wife did, and doesn't just address what YOU can do to alleviate her fears.

[Fian]

My wife has agreed that I have changed behavior... many times... .yet she would invent new reasons why the bar should be moved... .that my behavior change... .and she would not change hers... and the reason she could not change hers... .was because of my misbehavior (perceived) .

I see this with my wife as well.  I don't think that changing behavior will solve the issue.  There is a need to be a victim and to blame another - if you change your behavior, they will just find another reason to be a victim.  They want the power of being the victim and you being defensive.

On the other hand, this is a dangerous place to be, as you aren't perfect, and there are things about your behavior that need to change.  Sifting between real and imaginary issues is the challenge of living with BPD.

[Skip]

I do have several non-negotiables... .I need to think about that.

Me changing my behavior and my wife not changing hers... .in NOT on the table.

This is drama, FF.  Solve.  I know this is upsetting, but high emotional IQ is about solving.

You split the issue in two threads to separate them - untangle them. This thread is regarding values and boundaries in your marriage regarding private relationship with members of the opposite sex - not the emailing incident. Let's keep them separate.

Does she have private relationships with members of the opposite sex. If not, then this is about your actions (the other thread is about her actions).

Right?

[vortex of confusion]

Let's turn this around for a minute. . .

How would people respond if the story was turned around?

If we were talking to FF's wife instead of him. . .

FF has been distant and hasn't engaged. He is busy setting boundaries and trying to improve how he interacts and communicates. He is trying to stop the bleeding so to speak. She doesn't see that. All she sees is a husband that seems to have disconnected. He is unwilling to participate in chore stuff. He refuses to put his name on the chore chart. All of his projects and all of his stuff seems to take priority over what wife wants. He spends a lot of time on the computer, supposedly working on job applications and job stuff.

As a wife, how would that make the women here feel? If the tables were turned, what would people be saying to FF's wife?

Would people be up in arms telling her that she shouldn't snoop? I have seen it time and time again where people have found questionable stuff when snooping. The emphasis is rarely "WOW, you shouldn't be snooping." The emphasis is on "Trust your gut." If you think your partner is cheating or is doing something questionable, then he/she likely is. I think a lot of women would automatically jump to the conclusion that something was going on between FF and this woman given the back drop that he seems to be unplugging from the relationship.

FF's wife is a person. She is a human being. All of the things that all of us here have felt at different times, she is feeling too. Those feelings are likely amplified because of BPD or whatever it is that is going on with her.

[formflier]

Quickly, and I could be so wrong... . W might be extremely jealous and fearful of what appears to be an easy breezy relaxed connection between FF and coworker, something that's lacking in their marriage.

My wife and I do not email about emotional or r/s issues.

Texts are about what to pick up at store... .emails (that I respond to) are about issues with taxes... ."look at this digital document"... .business stuff.

You guys have seen threads about emails she sends about tasking... .she has agreed many times she won't and shouldn't do that.  I don't respond to them. 

My wife and I do have (at times... .in fact most of the time) an easy breezy conversation style at home.  It depends (IMO) on her mood.  I will attempt to be relaxed... .if she is worked up and I will attempt to hang with it with tools... .and then leave when it gets bad.

So... .it does exist... .it is much ... much better than a year ago... .we do have fun times... .enjoy each other etc etc.

FF

[formflier]

Does she have private relationships with members of the opposite sex. If not, then this is about your actions (the other thread is about her actions).

Yes she does.  Not many... .I don't know the number.  She has many guy "friends" on FB.

There was some sort of incident regarding a guy she was FB messaging that we both knew in our last church.  He ended up loosing a girlfriend and leaving/getting kicked out of the church.  The messages that my wife and he exchanged were one of the issues.

My opinion is that there was nothing inappropriate there... .I think my wife was a long way from any boundary that I would care about.  I believe that others in the church already had it in for this guy... .and my wife was trying to claim credit... .or be involved in drama... .that wasn't really hers. 

My opinion... .my values are that if my wife is doing inappropriate things... .it will eventually come to light without me investigating.

So... .my wife has privacy... .she talks to who she talks to.  That's my attitude.  Doesn't mean I don't care... .or have opinions... . 

FF

[Skip]

He ended up loosing a girlfriend and leaving/getting kicked out of the church.  The messages that my wife and he exchanged were one of the issues.

This says something about how harmful these email can be.

It also gives you a basis to make this an agreed value/boundary for both of you.

[Sunfl0wer]

I think it is possible that in this situation there is nothing for you to own.

It sounds like you did excellent getting the truth out of her, to get her to express what she was actually having an issue with vs some paranoid persecution that could have been possible if you minimized it or appeared to not be attentive.  It sounded like she was jealous over her perception of "intimacy" in this woman being invited to talk to you about "anything."

This sounds like a hugely successful interaction to me!

I'm with the others here, this email sounded perfectly acceptable in it's context.

I seriously do not see anywhere where you could have possibly done a better job!

FF, do you think it is possible, that in this situation, that you did your best... .which in this case was pretty much perfect... .and there is nothing to own?

[formflier]

My intent of the email was

1. Getting a CV that I could use for a job search.

2. Networking

No intent to form a "personal" connection... .although I'm not opposed to it.  There has been mention of getting families together to do things... .but times when they were available... .we weren't and vice versa.  But there was no "push" to do this.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

My intent of the email was

1. Getting a CV that I could use for a job search.

2. Networking

No intent to form a "personal" connection... .although I'm not opposed to it.  There has been mention of getting families together to do things... .but times when they were available... .we weren't and vice versa.  But there was no "push" to do this.

FF

Humm... .  Her jealousy is not about your intention... .it is about her perception.

Can one JADE in their head even when not JADEing out loud to the person?

If so... .is it helpful and productive? Or is it reinforcing to our own mind that we do not trust ourself?  Or is there an extent to this being helpful at some point, then not so much?

(By the way... .I'm genuinely curious about this... .not making a point with a predetermined answer in mind)

[formflier]

Can one JADE in their head even when not JADEing out loud to the person?

If so... .is it helpful and productive? Or is it reinforcing to our own mind that we do not trust ourself?  Or is there an extent to this being helpful at some point, then not so much?

(By the way... .I'm genuinely curious about this... .not making a point with a predetermined answer in mind)

Excellent question... .allow me to "explain"  how I believe I think and work.  My wife knows this by the way... .at one point in time... .she has said she found it attractive in me.

I rarely do things without purpose... .without considering where I am going.  I used to be much more "inflexible"... .not "spontaneous".  So... as I've gotten older... .I've learned to roll with things more... .be more spontaneous... and there are some incidents of doing things without thinking... .and then wondering... .what was I thinking.

I honestly have no recollection of ever doing anything "without thinking" in the world of relationships.  The instances of being spontaneous were business decisions "its only money"... .etc etc.

Well... .I'm saying all this to assure you... me ... everyone else that I was aware of my purpose in contacting this lady and other people via email.  So... .I don't believe "jading" to yourself is bad... .if you are honestly examining your efforts... .looking for improvements. 

If you are just looking to transfer blame to someone else... .that is bad.

It's a matter of the heart... .ultimately based on belief... .

there are times in my life when I have cheated... .bent rules... .justified ends justifies the means... etc etc.  I'm not a perfect guy... .

My heart is clear on this one... .I'm not picking up blame that is not mine... .

By same token... I have no interest in forcing people to take blame.

My hope and prayer is that I own my part... .and leave the rest for someone else. 

It's very tempting to point the finger... .

FF

[123Phoebe]

Well... .I'm saying all this to assure you... me ... everyone else that I was aware of my purpose in contacting this lady and other people via email.  So... .I don't believe "jading" to yourself is bad... .if you are honestly examining your efforts... .looking for improvements. 

It's not that what you did was bad or wrong, FF, to me anyway.  It's about having the ability of stepping inside her shoes and seeing this from her perspective and validating her experience, even though you don't agree with it.

When I'm jading to myself, I'm taking the stance that I AM RIGHT!  YOU ARE WRONG!  Where's the love connection in that?

[formflier]

It's about having the ability of stepping inside her shoes and seeing this from her perspective and validating her experience, even though you don't agree with it.

I see your point of view... .is a common thing I say to her.

I will sometimes try to use active listening and ask if I have it right... .she rarely responds... .or depending on level of upsetness... will have a retort about if I have to ask... .I obviously don't get it

"help me understand" used to work a lot better

My "take" on my validation skills is that I am pretty good at avoiding invalidation... I still have long way to go to learn how to validate.

I'm a complimenter... .not a validater

Not exactly sure how to change this... .so I can compliment what people do... .AND... .validate their experiences and emotions.

It's frustrating... .

FF