Boundary question

[Hmcbart]

Thanks. I'm re-reading the boundaries lesson now.

In answer to your question skip, I do believe there was love there. I will have to ask my wife why it's gone away. But I will have to wait until she's speaking to me again... .currently in silent treatment mode.

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[formflier]

I don know how you would do something like this as a boundary. Either you accept that she isn't going to do it and stay or move on. No real boundary to enforce.

Hmcbart,

How are you doing... .with processing and figuring out what are appropriate boundaries for you?

I like to think about boundaries protecting something that "own"... .vice something around what someone else will or will not do for you.

You can make requests of other people... .since they "own" their actions... they may or may not comply with your request.

We certainly hope that love in a r/s will help soften people and help them be willing to compromise and say yes... .more than they say no.

I'm seeing two big things here.

Define what boundaries are to you... .get crystal clear on that... .then decide how to "defend" those boundaries.

Most importantly... .is that you understand (as Skip mentions)... .where love has gone in your r/s... .from your wife's point of view. 

Last thought... .understanding and agreeing with something is totally different.  To me... .understanding means that you could explain to me why your wife believes love is gone.  And... .if your wife were to explain it to me... .it would be a similar story.

Hope you are doing well.

Trying to catch up on some threads here...

FF

[ptilda]

 Not sure if I'm on the right track, but I think I established a "boundary" tonight. My uBPDh who moved out a few weeks ago and yesterday morning had a police officer accompany him to move out the rest of his things (unannounced, of course) decided that suddenly I am required to immediately answer his numerous phone calls, texts, Facebook messages demanding that I let him get a book that was being delivered to the house (he chose to leave his key even after I made the nice suggestion that he keeps it and tried to explain he might need to check the mail).

So I just ignored him for several hours. I chose to help alleviate his panic (evident in his nonstop messages) by sending the following message: "I'll get it. Teaching." making sure he knew I would take care of it, but since I'm teaching, I don't have the ability to have a conversation about details.

Later tonight he sent other messages saying he really needs it tonight and bla bla bla can he get his key back, etc. So I left town I waited until I was well outside of town to send him a message saying I am out of town for the weekend and will let him know when I'm back in town. Both times he replied with a respectful and nice "thank you so much." I responded back that he also got his insurance papers and title for his car and a card for him to pick up a registered letter on Monday. I said I'll put it all together (which I already did). He again was grateful and said: "Thanks a lot"

I responded with: "No problem"

"I am for you. I hope you can see that."

He said: "I just want to get stuff I have left home please stop or don't start. Goodnight"

I responded with: "I feel like I should be able to speak freely with my husband. Goodnight." And immediately made myself unavailable on Facebook so that he would not send back a snotty response.

My boundary is, if you expect me to be available to help you out with things, I am willing to do that. But then I get to say what's on my mind and won't ask permission or forgiveness...

How did I do?

[formflier]

So I just ignored him for several hours. I chose to help alleviate his panic (evident in his nonstop messages) by sending the following message: "I'll get it. Teaching." making sure he knew I would take care of it, but since I'm teaching, I don't have the ability to have a conversation about details.

Spot on!   I like this... .and think it is a great example of a boundary (you are at work and not available) and also a pragmatic approach to enforcement that takes into account the "rules" and "guidelines" for dealing with a pwBPD traits.  What I see is that you wanted to acknowledge to him that his communication was important to you... .but because of your job... .were not able to continue it.  There is a little bit of dealing with abandonment fears in there.

I'm a "good... better... best" guy when I give advice about communications with  a pwBPD traits.

There are two points of view... .that I believe you should evaluate and choose one... .to be consistent with.

I think you gave the best response if you want to choose the point of view that you will get back to communicating to him... .when you get to it.

If timeliness and consistency is a big deal to him... .and to you... .AND YOU ARE ABLE TO FOLLOW THROUGH CONSISTENTLY... .then perhaps your response was "better"... .and a "best" response is below.hat

Suggested:  "I'll get it.  Teaching.  I'll let you know further details around 4pm" (or some time that is a half hour or so after you get off work).    That provides some certainty for you... .and for him.  But it also creates and obligation on your part.

Later tonight he sent other messages saying he really needs it tonight and bla bla bla can he get his key back, etc. So I left town

Why leave town?   The rest of my response has a bunch of assumptions in it about why you left... .so... .I'll wait for your response.[/quote]
I responded with: "No problem"

"I am for you. I hope you can see that."[/quote]
Remember... .less is more.  My gut reaction is that you would have been better to stop at "I am for you"

He said: "I just want to get stuff I have left home please stop or don't start. Goodnight"

This response strikes me as odd... .and I don't understand it... .maybe I'm missing the backstory.  My gut is that it either needs no response... .or simply.  "Goodnight"

I responded with: "I feel like I should be able to speak freely with my husband. Goodnight." And immediately made myself unavailable on Facebook so that he would not send back a snotty response.

Hmmm... .why should you be able to tell him your feelings... .without giving him the chance to share his feelings?  So far... .he appeared to be respectful and not abusive in his communications.

Again... .given what I know of the surrounding story... .less is more.  "Goodnight" would have been a great response.

My boundary is, if you expect me to be available to help you out with things, I am willing to do that. But then I get to say what's on my mind and won't ask permission or forgiveness...

How did I do?

Hmm... .remember.  Less is more.  That boundary seems a bit complicated. 

Here is a good test.  If the roles were reversed... .how would you feel about "bumping into" the boundary and the enforcement of the boundary.  Would it seem vindictive... .or reasonable?

What would a person think that is an outsider of the r/s... .the "reasonable person test".

What is your reaction to the following boundaries?

"If you communicate to me in an abusive fashion... .I will cease communication with you.  I'll check back in with you a day or so later."  If this happens to mean he doesn't get a key... .mail... .check... .whatever... .that is collateral damage of his choice to talk abusively to you... .because he knows you consistently enforce this boundary.

Option 2

"If you want me to help you with mail (or another issue) you are required to sit and listen to me speak my mind first"

What do you think of those two choices?

FF

[Skip]

My boundary is, if you expect me to be available to help you out with things, I am willing to do that. But then I get to say what's on my mind and won't ask permission or forgiveness...

How did I do?

"if you expect me to be available to help you out with things, I am willing to do that. But then I get to say what's on my mind and won't ask permission or forgiveness" ~ptilda

This is being assertive. You are saying that you won't be pushed around and you're not going to reward negative or manic behavior... .and you punished him.  And he knows it. There is a bit of drama to this.

Why is it not a boundary? Ask yourself, are you ready to obligate yourself to be open for him to say whats on and be immune from asking permission or forgiveness.

A value (and boundary) would be to say that mutual respect is really important to me and I expect that we will both be respectful and helpful to each other which means (boundary), if you need something, I will be responsive but we also need to respect that each other have other obligations.

You could have left the message that the book was on the porch - you were out of town.

Three good tests for being reasonably assertive:

1. Objective Effectiveness: obtaining your objectives or goals in a given situation. Getting something concrete to happen, i.e., money to be returned, a salesperson to take back an item.

2. Relationship Effectiveness: getting or keeping a good relationship; acting in a way that is positive for the overall good of the relationship.

3. Self-respect Effectiveness: preserving or improving your sense of self-respect, maintaining your values and liking for yourself in the context of the relationship.

Your attained #3.  The other two, not so much.

Right now, you want to be careful to not initiate or be drawn into a drama triangle  - where the battles are more important than the solutions. Here is a great explanation of drama triangles: https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

This is often not second nature after being in a conflicted relationship for any period of time.  We almost have to retrain ourselves... .

[ptilda]

Good feedback. I will say there is definite reason for me to respond as I did.

He consistently does the push-pull by demanding that I do things for him (fill paperwork, help him with a password, deliver his mail to him) and he will say whatever he wants at any time, but if I say anything to him that is not precisely what he wants to hear, I am berated and he will go on long rants. This can be as simple as my saying I don't have time, or asking how he is, or telling him so-an-so said hi. So yes, I am willing to let him speak his mind... .he's been doing it nonstop for months, refusing to hear a single word of response.

One of his control tactics is to put the "you won't speak until spoken to" rule on me. It's partially a culturally-motivated thing.

I see the points here, however. I am a communicator. It's what I do, so being unable to do it in the most important relationship I have, is exceedingly frustrating.

[Skip]

One of his control tactics is to put the "you won't speak until spoken to" rule on me. It's partially a culturally-motivated thing.

I see the points here, however. I am a communicator. It's what I do, so being unable to do it in the most important relationship I have, is exceedingly frustrating.

That a tough one.

Your "however" says that you are OK to have drama. Know that everyone loses in drama. You can't force him to change counteractions that are non-constriuctive. And things that weren't resolved in the relationship don't clean up after a moveout easily.

You probably didn't advance your position by waiting until you can't help him to respond. That's a game. He will see it as a game, and will counter with a game move.  This is drama.

No judgment here.  We all get caught in this from time to time.

Values and boundaries is to wait for him to calm, maybe ask what are the expectations we should have for each other regarding communication (or suggest your own expectations and get buy in).  You know  - as long as we are respectful and reasonable we should... .  When we are not, either can ask to table the conversation for 4 hours and then we can try again.

This is setting the boundary. Mature. Open. No games.

Now, when he gets unreasonable, you politely and apologetically text and take a 4 hour break.

He won't like this any better at the time, but when the extinction burst is over he will see that losing it is self defeating.  This is better than what you did, as when the extinction burst is over, he will see that you manipulated the situation and he needs to get you back.

I'm over simplifying to make a point.  

[formflier]

I see the points here, however. I am a communicator. It's what I do, so being unable to do it in the most important relationship I have, is exceedingly frustrating.

I feel for you with this comment... .point of view.

My bachelors degree is in communications... .most of my professional career has involved managing and training people to communicate more effectively.  I know what I'm doing.

So... it is... was... .still is... .maddening to me to try to communicate with a person that seems to "flaunt" the rules.

Whatever you can do to focus on the "sender" side... .(your side)... .and stop evaluating the response... .will help you.

Trust me... .use some radical acceptance... .send clear messages... .and let it go.

Yes... .easier said than done... .

FF

[ptilda]

Yes... .easier said than done... .

FF

Yep

[formflier]

Yes... .easier said than done... .

FF

Yep

Ptilda,

We are here for you!

I totally feel your frustration with being a "communicator" in a r/s with a pwBPD... .and the frustrations that breeds.

Here is my challenge to you.  Start a new thread on how to consistently "send" good messages to the pwBPD traits in your life.  Maybe think of some recent examples you have faced... .and we can work through it from a "good... .better... .best" point of view. 

I feel frustration when things seem hopeless.

I get hope when I come to the boards and get help finding areas I can focus my energy that may improve my r/s... .whether my wife wants to or not!   

Here's hoping... .we can find you some hope... .

FF