More than just BPD?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I've tried to stay away from this website over the weekend, to focus on me and taking care of myself.  Live in the present rather than the online world.  I sincerely appreciate everyone's advice and wishes in my other threads. 

I was noticing something about my W this weekend.  When I compare her recent behavior to some of the other people on here, I see some differences with many of your stories:

- my wife almost always seems in a state of dysregulation.  Thinking back, yes there were some "calm" periods, but even those periods don't feel that "calm" when I think back on them.  There have been few times when I feel like my wife and I have had conversations or shared experiences that progressed in a mutually constructive way. 

- Lately, there seem to be considerable times when it almost feels like she is having a psychotic episode.  All the validation and tools in the world don't seem to help, because during those moments it seems that I become some kind of representation of someone else, or an accumulation of people.  I'm not sure how to explain it other than to say that in those situations, I don't feel like she is seeing me as me and she doesn't seem like her.  An example:  last night I was asleep in the other room while she was watching tv.  She came and went to bed, and for some reason woke me before she went to bed to ask where the cat was.  Then I heard her pick up the cat, take him to bed with her, and then start crying.  I went to her room to see if I could comfort her or ask her what was wrong, and she just kept crying.  I said I would stay in the room with her so that we don't feel alone, and she didn't say

"no" or say "yes".  A few minutes passed, and I went to go get my other pillow from the other room, and I could not figure out if she wanted me to go or stay, and she would not communicate those wishes to me.  I decided to stay in bed with her, under my own set of covers.  then she told me she is not going to have sex with me (?) and that I need to keep my clothes on (?).  I had no intention of either, and for me to be aggressive in that was is completely not like me at all.  Then she told me to "stop doing something" that she would not specify, and later told me to not "jerk off" in the bed.  I just felt that in that moment, I was someone else to her, and not "Max".

- the "black" and the "white" seem to be occurring simultaneously at the moment.  Her attitude towards me, and everyone seems to be both black and white at the same time, but not "gray". 

It just feels lately, especially since her suicide attempt, that she is living in one big flashback or other reality... .is that part of BPD?  Like things are one big PTSD flashback for her?  I'm not sure what I am asking here, maybe just for thoughts when BPD is not BPD... .

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[maxsterling]

I've tried to stay away from this website over the weekend, to focus on me and taking care of myself.  Live in the present rather than the online world.  I sincerely appreciate everyone's advice and wishes in my other threads. 

I was noticing something about my W this weekend.  When I compare her recent behavior to some of the other people on here, I see some differences with many of your stories:

- my wife almost always seems in a state of dysregulation.  Thinking back, yes there were some "calm" periods, but even those periods don't feel that "calm" when I think back on them.  There have been few times when I feel like my wife and I have had conversations or shared experiences that progressed in a mutually constructive way. 

- Lately, there seem to be considerable times when it almost feels like she is having a psychotic episode.  All the validation and tools in the world don't seem to help, because during those moments it seems that I become some kind of representation of someone else, or an accumulation of people.  I'm not sure how to explain it other than to say that in those situations, I don't feel like she is seeing me as me and she doesn't seem like her.  An example:  last night I was asleep in the other room while she was watching tv.  She came and went to bed, and for some reason woke me before she went to bed to ask where the cat was.  Then I heard her pick up the cat, take him to bed with her, and then start crying.  I went to her room to see if I could comfort her or ask her what was wrong, and she just kept crying.  I said I would stay in the room with her so that we don't feel alone, and she didn't say

"no" or say "yes".  A few minutes passed, and I went to go get my other pillow from the other room, and I could not figure out if she wanted me to go or stay, and she would not communicate those wishes to me.  I decided to stay in bed with her, under my own set of covers.  then she told me she is not going to have sex with me (?) and that I need to keep my clothes on (?).  I had no intention of either, and for me to be aggressive in that was is completely not like me at all.  Then she told me to "stop doing something" that she would not specify, and later told me to not "jerk off" in the bed.  I just felt that in that moment, I was someone else to her, and not "Max".

- the "black" and the "white" seem to be occurring simultaneously at the moment.  Her attitude towards me, and everyone seems to be both black and white at the same time, but not "gray". 

It just feels lately, especially since her suicide attempt, that she is living in one big flashback or other reality... .is that part of BPD?  Like things are one big PTSD flashback for her?  I'm not sure what I am asking here, maybe just for thoughts when BPD is not BPD... .

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[Daniell85]

are her hormones ok?

Also, I know someone with schizophrenia. A lovely girl, but when she is not taking meds... .wow.

Your wife, poor lady, sounds like she is absolutely overwhelmed.

[Sunfl0wer]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/?title=Delusion

She may have BPD with ... .  Something... .

... .non bizarre delusions?

I was surprised to learn of the many types of delusions.  I originally only thought delusions to be of impossible nature... .such as aliens have taken over my mind and will kidnap me.

When I was researching re PAS, I learned that persecutory delusions can be bizarre or non bizarre.  Non bizarre means it is possible, but false.

Her belief of you masterbating is an example of a non bizarre delusion.

It is possible that she is in a state of experiencing non bizarre persecutory delusions, but not wanting anyone to find out... .therefore having moments that appear normal as she is faking not being delusional.

[maxsterling]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/?title=Delusion

She may have BPD with ... .  Something... .

... .non bizarre delusions?

I was surprised to learn of the many types of delusions.  I originally only thought delusions to be of impossible nature... .such as aliens have taken over my mind and will kidnap me.

When I was researching re PAS, I learned that persecutory delusions can be bizarre or non bizarre.  Non bizarre means it is possible, but false.

Her belief of you masterbating is an example of a non bizarre delusion.

It is possible that she is in a state of experiencing non bizarre persecutory delusions, but not wanting anyone to find out... .therefore having moments that appear normal as she is faking not being delusional.

Interesting.  What I find strange about that incident (and there have been many other similar, lately) is that every single piece of evidence would tell her otherwise, yet she still believe it was happening or would happen.  To me, things like this go beyond the accusations of cheating or some other false reality, because in most of those situations, she at least has some "evidence", even if the "lack of evidence" is her evidence.  One of the things she has said a few times is that "I am going to take her baby away from her."  Like I have some kind of deliberate plot to get her pregnant, have the child, then have her committed.  Again, something must have triggered this deep fear for her, and I think she truly believes this and is scared of this.  In away, this is what happened to her as a child.  Mom and dad divorced, she lived with mom until mom got arrested, then lived with dad.  So maybe she is viewing me as her "dad"?

[sweetheart]

It sounds like your wife is caught in a "trigger stacking" series of dysregulation, which is caused by her not being able to get back to baseline functioning for any sustained period of time in between each dysregulation.

At his worse my dBPDh was in a continuous state of dysregulation starting with an OD in March 2013 and ending with him being detained after trying to set fire to himself in July 2014.

Transient psychotic thoughts and dissociative behaviour can also be part of BPD. There can be many similarities with other illnesses such as Schizophrenia and Bi-polar, but the main distinction is that the psychosis is transient and not fixed.

My h returned emotionally to the dysregulated events during that year over and over again as though he was rexperiencing them. It took him a while to reset his thinking, a further three stays in hospital, increases in his medications for him to regain some semblance of stability.

Your wife has the additional stress of starting a new job coming up at a time when she has been at her most unstable, this will be increasing the likelihood of further dysregulation.

[Sunfl0wer]

So maybe she is viewing me as her "dad"?

This would be a form of projection.

It is possible she is both projecting, and having a delusion.

My ex did this.  I believe he suppressed so much of his exW's abuse to him, that he actually brought forth his suppression of her by projecting her onto me.  This is what I was thinking when you explained that she treated you like not Max.

My ex looked for ways that I could resemble his ex.  Something simple, like I said dinner was good.  He heard: dinner is good tonight but crappy usually.  Then it would trigger his upset ness from his ex degrading him... .and he would react to this and start attacking me.  

I learned that these triggers for him were like emotional flashbacks of the past pain he experienced but repressed or was somehow unresolved for him.

Seriously verbally attacking me over saying dinner was good!  

He could not see how bizarre these things actually are.  I often could not help him as he was suspicious of my intent... .as his ex was legitimately out to destroy him, I was not... .but since in his head... .I was also her... .he could not separate this.

Our MC once told me in private that he often did not know that I was not his ex.  He constantly treated me in the way he should have reacted to her.

I became a trigger for him.  He displaced those things on me.

It was mind bending to me.  Made me feel crazy!

Sorry for the confusion you are experiencing!

*sigh*

[maxsterling]

I had an ex who also was likely BPD.  She definitely had delusions, and at the time I thought it had to do with her smoking pot most of her life.  One time she had a delusion where her son was conspiring in his own kidnapping (was actually sleeping over at a friend's house that night), and wanted me to go over and free him.  Other times she was convinced I had a second girlfriend, would describe her to me, and everything.  She said she had a "vision" and saw her... .

When my current r/s began, many of the things my W did triggered me of that ex.  But I never felt delusional as if I was confused - just that the raw emotions and wounds would re-open. 

W now has this whole story that I am calling police on her and trying to pit everyone in the world against her, intentionally, so that I can stoke my ego and gain sympathy.  She spelled the whole thing out in MC last week, that I intentionally sought her out because she was "easy", have intentionally isolated her and messed with her head, all because I want sympathy and attention from family and friends.  While I am sure there are plenty of people in the world like that, nothing could be further from the truth as I see it, and it also contradicts other things she says about me.  So on one hand, I was very deliberate in my intent to pursue her knowing she had issues.  Yet on the other hand, she claims I am too passive and "never initiate anything."   

[Cat Familiar]

My husband has been in a continuous state of dysregulation for a few weeks. It's been mild, but what I notice is the continuous depression and frequent under-the-breath expletives.

He had a lot to drink last night and it became full-on dysregulation. He erupted in a fury when I asked him to put the music he had been listening to on pause so I could listen to a message on the message machine. It ultimately ended up with me dialing 911 when I told him I wouldn't tolerate the verbal abuse, after he kept pursuing me and shoved me then started waving his hands in my face.

I hung up--I just wanted him to know that I meant business, but they called me back and I mistakenly told them the truth that I was trying to stop verbal abuse, but really didn't need a visit by the police. Unfortunately they said they had to send officers out--so I talked with them and told them I wasn't in danger and they left. Now my husband says our relationship is over.

What I mean to convey through this story is that he adamantly maintains that I "hate" him--despite repeated assurances that I don't. He also thinks that I have covertly masterminded a plot to extract money from him so that I can divorce him and take everything. He has accused me of planning to send him to Guantanamo last night. It's so incredibly bizarre that I don't know how to respond to these crazy accusations.

He may well be accusing me of things that previous people in his life did. The splitting really comes front and center when he says things like: "All you do is criticize me." "You hate me and you're trying to get rid of me." "You have a secret boyfriend."

He has made it clear that he doesn't want to be criticized and I have been vigilant at not doing so, but what do you do when a comment like ":)o you have anything in the washing machine?" is taken as criticism?

[SweetCharlotte]

One of the things she has said a few times is that "I am going to take her baby away from her."  Like I have some kind of deliberate plot to get her pregnant, have the child, then have her committed.  Again, something must have triggered this deep fear for her, and I think she truly believes this and is scared of this.  In away, this is what happened to her as a child.  Mom and dad divorced, she lived with mom until mom got arrested, then lived with dad.  So maybe she is viewing me as her "dad"?

I think it is something simpler than your interpretation. She has a legitimate fear that if you two go ahead and have a baby, then you become convinced at some point (as you almost have in the past) that you must leave her, she would have to deal with losing you and the child as well. You wouldn't leave your child behind if you thought she was a danger to herself and others. Maybe she is expressing it irrationally, shaded with delusions, but her fear is real and well-founded. This is how she deals with it--allowing herself to regress and blame you ahead of time for what you conceivably may have to do in the future (but let's hope not).

[GaGrl]

She sounds as if she is delusional or, worse, she is having visual and/or auditory hallucinations.  If so, she's moving into schizophrenia.

Have you considered letting her P know which specific behaviors you are observing?

[Sunfl0wer]

She sounds as if she is delusional or, worse, she is having visual and/or auditory hallucinations.  If so, she's moving into schizophrenia.

Have you considered letting her P know which specific behaviors you are observing?

I didn't hear anything that would suggest auditory or visual hallucinations.

Can you explain?

[maxsterling]

Yeah, I don't see where she is hallucinating, seeing things or hearing things that aren't there.  I just see her believing in scenarios that really don't make any sense.  And when I say she doesn't appear as if she is reacting to me as "max" but as someone else, I don't mean where she is literally seeing her father or some ex, but she is instead believing a scenario based upon a situation that may have happened to her in the past.

Take, for example, the last physical altercation.  I told police on the phone that she was hitting me and holding me down.  She ADMITS she was sitting on me, with me on the bed, straddling me.  And was she hitting?  Well, somehow I had a bruise that lasted two weeks.    Yet, she keeps bringing this up, as if I was lying to the police.  Let's put it this way - if someone was sitting on her and left bruises on her body, I would hope she would call police.  Or if this was happening to a friend of hers, I am sure she would tell the friend to get a restraining order.  So it seems with this incident, I think she truly believes it didn't happen, and is instead fitting it in with the overall delusion that I have from the very beginning plotting to control her life, keep her in submission, and prevent her from succeeding. 

[sweetheart]

What's so desperately sad about her comment about having a baby taken away from her, is she knows that her fear is grounded in a possible reality.

When somebody as ill as your wife has been in as much contact with services as she has over recent months; any professionals involved in her treatment would have a duty of care to safeguard the well being of a child as a matter of priority were you and your wife to go ahead with a pregnancy at the moment.

Her desire to have a child conflicted against the pervasive course of her illness must be a very scary place for her to be at the moment.

[enlighten me]

I had incidents where my ex would start having a go at me and in it call me by her exs name. It didnt make sense at the time as I hadnt done what she was accusing me of. I now believe that something triggered a flashback and she was reacting to that.

[sweetheart]

Yeah, I don't see where she is hallucinating, seeing things or hearing things that aren't there.  I just see her believing in scenarios that really don't make any sense.  And when I say she doesn't appear as if she is reacting to me as "max" but as someone else, I don't mean where she is literally seeing her father or some ex, but she is instead believing a scenario based upon a situation that may have happened to her in the past.

Take, for example, the last physical altercation.  I told police on the phone that she was hitting me and holding me down.  She ADMITS she was sitting on me, with me on the bed, straddling me.  And was she hitting?  Well, somehow I had a bruise that lasted two weeks.    Yet, she keeps bringing this up, as if I was lying to the police.  Let's put it this way - if someone was sitting on her and left bruises on her body, I would hope she would call police.  Or if this was happening to a friend of hers, I am sure she would tell the friend to get a restraining order.  So it seems with this incident, I think she truly believes it didn't happen, and is instead fitting it in with the overall delusion that I have from the very beginning plotting to control her life, keep her in submission, and prevent her from succeeding. 

Max what you describe your wife doing sounds like dissociation, which can be very much a part of BPD. Here is a link which fits with a lot of what you are describing here;

www.BPD.about.com/od/understandingBPD/a/dissoc.htm

[Ceruleanblue]

Hang in there Max! To me it does sound like an extremely bad form of BPD. I'd definitely inform her caregivers about these weird incidences. My BPDh believes or misinterprets things sometimes to the extreme too, and it just always leaves me baffled, but it's nothing as extreme as what your wife is doing. A few times I have gotten the sense that he confuses me with his highly abusive ex, or is projecting and looking for traits she had in me. It used to be worse, but time seems to have helped some.

It has to hurt to get accused of such outlandish things.

[GaGrl]

My point about the hallucinations came from the comments she was making about the sleeping/bed arrangements. They were so disconnected from reality that it sounded to me as if she were responding to something that only she was seeing or hearing.

[babyducks]

Transient psychotic thoughts and dissociative behaviour can also be part of BPD. There can be many similarities with other illnesses such as Schizophrenia and Bi-polar, but the main distinction is that the psychosis is transient and not fixed.

At one point in our r/s my partner dissociated so badly she looked to me frankly psychotic.  It was like maximum nervous system processing capacity had been reached and her ability to be rational shut down.  It was scary as heck.    Just watching her walk down the street disturbed me because it was evident she was struggling to process traffic and directions.

Put most simply it was as if her brain and her central nervous system was so overloaded with the sh!t storm going on inside her weird stuff kept popping out.   

[MaybeSo]

Even severe depression can present with psychotic features.

A healthy person can even present as psychotic with lack of sleep. It's not that uncommon.

Max, she does sound like she has some PTSD, which is common with folks who have BPD features.

 

Many clinicians now see BPD as a type of complex (layered, multi event, developmental) PTSD, anyway.   

A good book to read is The Body Keeps Score.  

I hope she is getting good professional care.

[maxsterling]

Well, last night she awoke, was going on and on about "worms".  I thought this was a nightmare/talking in her sleep.   But then she got up, went to the bathroom, came back and was still talking about "worms crawling everywhere".  I asked her to explain where they were, and she said that they were going to be "in out meat".  I bet if I asked her about it now, she would not remember it.  I've been known to talk in my sleep and sleepwalk, but this didn't seem like that. 

[MaybeSo]

 Her treatment team should be made aware of this, especially if it's new. Also would be curious if she has had recent med change?  It should be addressed medically.

[maxsterling]

I am going to stay out of her treatment, so long as she is going.  She's on no meds at all right now. 

She says that was just a dream.  I think that is what it was - her talking in her sleep, then as she awoke.  When that happens to me, it usually only takes a few seconds to realize I am awake.  With her, she was talking about the "worms" for a few minutes as if it was real. 

[Verbena]

Max, two questions:

At any time in your relationship has your wife been completely off all medication?

Is this her decision to take no medication, and if so, why?

I guess that's three. 

[ColdEthyl]

Yeah, I don't see where she is hallucinating, seeing things or hearing things that aren't there.  I just see her believing in scenarios that really don't make any sense.  And when I say she doesn't appear as if she is reacting to me as "max" but as someone else, I don't mean where she is literally seeing her father or some ex, but she is instead believing a scenario based upon a situation that may have happened to her in the past.

Max, I have noticed that my H's opinions are completely based off of his previous experience with exes. It bleeds into other areas as well IE his political views, or how he's an expert on something because of an article he read but where it hits home the most is thinking because his ex said something, I must be thinking it, too.

IE We started watching a show on Netflix that he likes. I like it, too. But he kept "defending" the show to me, saying how funny it was, how this how that. I kept agreeing and it was like I didn't say anything. After a few days, I finally asked him "Honey, someone before told you they didn't like this show, didn't they?" and that's when he said his ex gf hated it and told him he only liked dorky shows.

Something that small stuck in head and replayed itself over and over. Imagine what big stuff does to them.

[enlighten me]

It made me laugh when you said your husband became an expert from exs. My exgf used to mispronounce a german word and when I corrected her she told me she knew she was right because one of her exbf was german. The fact that I lived in germany for eight years didnt count. She now pronounces it correctly but only after we had split up.

[maxsterling]

Oh yeah, I am sure there is a transference from exes.  I think we all do this to some extent.  But I think with BPD, it often feels like they are treating us like exes treated them.  For example, my W says she had an ex that was always critical of the way she cooks, and that is why she does not like to cook when I am home.  Okay, I understand that.  But then she goes out of her way to be critical of me, the way I cook or clean up, the way I dress, etc. 

That seems so backwards to me.  I make an effort to not treat others the way others have treated me badly.  You know, golden rule stuff.  But I guess it is the mirroring aspect of BPD that keeps them perpetuating the cycle.  Example:  Both my wife and I were teased growing up for the clothes we wore.  As an adult, I make a conscious effort to never give anyone a hard time about what he/she is wearing.  My W is the opposite, she is CONSTANTLY commenting on what others are wearing and making critical comments about others' appearances. 

[Sunfl0wer]

S

o maybe she is viewing me as her "dad"?

This would be a form of projection.

Ooops, I should have said transference. 

(Just looked up that word as I saw it in Max post... .thx Max!)

[ColdEthyl]

@Max

Yep... .husband will say things about his son he doesn't like... .and they are things he does himself. Their need to protect themselves and never accept blame overrides common sense sometimes.

[maxsterling]

So the latest - as you know there have been a few incidents of physical abuse and significant verbal abuse recently.  I have not once cursed, raised my voice, or got physical in return.  Not once.  Nor have I tried to force myself on her, intrude on her space, or touch her.  All I have done in response is remove myself from the situation, and call police when I felt my safety or her safety was threatened. 

Yet, last night, she made some comment while falling asleep about me not hurting her, as if she was actually scared I was going to do something to her in her sleep.  For her to be scared of me just seems completely backwards... .

[ColdEthyl]

So the latest - as you know there have been a few incidents of physical abuse and significant verbal abuse recently.  I have not once cursed, raised my voice, or got physical in return.  Not once.  Nor have I tried to force myself on her, intrude on her space, or touch her.  All I have done in response is remove myself from the situation, and call police when I felt my safety or her safety was threatened. 

Yet, last night, she made some comment while falling asleep about me not hurting her, as if she was actually scared I was going to do something to her in her sleep.  For her to be scared of me just seems completely backwards... .

It's almost like she's channeling how YOU feel.

[maxsterling]

So the latest - as you know there have been a few incidents of physical abuse and significant verbal abuse recently.  I have not once cursed, raised my voice, or got physical in return.  Not once.  Nor have I tried to force myself on her, intrude on her space, or touch her.  All I have done in response is remove myself from the situation, and call police when I felt my safety or her safety was threatened. 

Yet, last night, she made some comment while falling asleep about me not hurting her, as if she was actually scared I was going to do something to her in her sleep.  For her to be scared of me just seems completely backwards... .

It's almost like she's channeling how YOU feel.

Yeah.  It feels like in times of conflict, she gets confused as to who is who.  All she feels is the raw emotions of conflict and anger, and in the moment feels threatened and unstable in general, and her perception is that I am perpetuating that threat.  Is that based on a past event with someone else?  Maybe.  But if I think about it this way - two people are fighting.  In that moment, each person is not thinking about who started what or who is the aggressor.  At that time, both people's natural instinct is to protect him/herself.  Or if a kidnapper may feel threatened by the victim, because the kidnapper knows if the victim escapes, he/she is doomed.  Just thinking out loud, here.  So maybe once the conflict starts, my wife feels she must "win", otherwise she is worried how I will retaliate.  And I could see how one could get in that mindset without drawing upon past events. 

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[Verbena]

Yeah.  It feels like in times of conflict, she gets confused as to who is who.  All she feels is the raw emotions of conflict and anger, and in the moment feels threatened and unstable in general, and her perception is that I am perpetuating that threat.  Is that based on a past event with someone else?  Maybe.  But if I think about it this way - two people are fighting.  In that moment, each person is not thinking about who started what or who is the aggressor.  At that time, both people's natural instinct is to protect him/herself.  Or if a kidnapper may feel threatened by the victim, because the kidnapper knows if the victim escapes, he/she is doomed.  Just thinking out loud, here.  So maybe once the conflict starts, my wife feels she must "win", otherwise she is worried how I will retaliate.  And I could see how one could get in that mindset without drawing upon past events. 

If you're correct about this, I see  potential for some bad scenes to come. 

If your wife truly believes you are out to hurt her, especially physically, she could set up a situation in her head that leaves her feeling she has no choice but to take drastic measures to protect herself from you.  In other words, violence toward you that she alone would see as self-defense. 

Please be careful. 

[maxsterling]

Yeah.  It feels like in times of conflict, she gets confused as to who is who.  All she feels is the raw emotions of conflict and anger, and in the moment feels threatened and unstable in general, and her perception is that I am perpetuating that threat.  Is that based on a past event with someone else?  Maybe.  But if I think about it this way - two people are fighting.  In that moment, each person is not thinking about who started what or who is the aggressor.  At that time, both people's natural instinct is to protect him/herself.  Or if a kidnapper may feel threatened by the victim, because the kidnapper knows if the victim escapes, he/she is doomed.  Just thinking out loud, here.  So maybe once the conflict starts, my wife feels she must "win", otherwise she is worried how I will retaliate.  And I could see how one could get in that mindset without drawing upon past events. 

If you're correct about this, I see  potential for some bad scenes to come. 

If your wife truly believes you are out to hurt her, especially physically, she could set up a situation in her head that leaves her feeling she has no choice but to take drastic measures to protect herself from you.  In other words, violence toward you that she alone would see as self-defense. 

Please be careful. 

Yes, I have thought about this. 

[Verbena]

If you can't sleep with one eye open, sleeping in a locked separate room seems your safest bet. 

[waverider]

She senses aggression and conflict, but can't own it, so the only way to acknowledge it is to put it at your feet.

I think she has a base line neurosis and psychotic illness. Hence the lack of a baseline of reality.

Very hard to seperate nightmares from reality

[Verbena]

A psychotic break is what I'm concerned about now, Max.  You've said she is now on zero medications.  She is talking about worms in your food and says she fears you.  This is very telling. 

[Sunfl0wer]

Yeah.  It feels like in times of conflict, she gets confused as to who is who.  All she feels is the raw emotions of conflict and anger, and in the moment feels threatened and unstable in general, and her perception is that I am perpetuating that threat.  Is that based on a past event with someone else?  Maybe.  But if I think about it this way - two people are fighting.  In that moment, each person is not thinking about who started what or who is the aggressor.  At that time, both people's natural instinct is to protect him/herself.  Or if a kidnapper may feel threatened by the victim, because the kidnapper knows if the victim escapes, he/she is doomed.  Just thinking out loud, here.  So maybe once the conflict starts, my wife feels she must "win", otherwise she is worried how I will retaliate.  And I could see how one could get in that mindset without drawing upon past events.  

If you're correct about this, I see  potential for some bad scenes to come.  

If your wife truly believes you are out to hurt her, especially physically, she could set up a situation in her head that leaves her feeling she has no choice but to take drastic measures to protect herself from you.  In other words, violence toward you that she alone would see as self-defense.  

Please be careful.  

Yes, I have thought about this.  

My ex's(N/BPDtraits) exW(BPD) would feel that any normal person in the situation she put us in would want to kill/hurt her... . She therefore was frightened we were plotting to hurt her.  So in expectation, created a preemptive retaliation.  (There were no such thoughts on our part... .or reasons to think this)

I believe on some level she knew that we could not actually save her D from her alienation as she knew she would continue until forever and she knew nothing would stop her... .she felt the only way for us to protect D would be to kidnap her and leave to some undisclosed location with her.

These were not our thoughts.

She would think of HER anger.  

Then should would think how SHE would respond to such anger and behavior as her own.  

Then she would treat us as though our next step/move... .was what she had already thought out, how she would respond or want to respond.

So the police came and got us on "kidnapping" charges.

They came for us for other false reasons too... .always left apologizing to us. (Thankfully)

I guess they are sympathetic to distraught women... .and feel the need to investigate and take accusations seriously until investigated.

Thankfully We were released.  

Being blackmailed with false accusations all the time sucks!

[maxsterling]

Verbena - psychotic break.  Interesting.  The "worms" was just a dream.  That she carried on for several minutes like it was weird was strange.  If it was just "talking in her sleep" or half-asleep and she didn't remember the next day, that's one thing.  But that she remembers talking to me about it, yet at the time was not able to see it as a dream was, frankly, strange. 

Her being fearful of me thing *is* alarming.  Not to toot my own horn, but if you knew me personally, you would probably say I am one of the calmest, least threatening people you have ever met.  EVEN MY WIFE SAYS SO!  (well, not lately, though).  This situation kinda reminds me of an ex who claimed she had "visions" of me cheating on her and of other things that simply were absurd or not true.  I know my wife has PTSD of which I am no expert on, but this feels like something different.  In fact, her being fearful of *me* makes me question the reality of some of her past traumatic events, and wonder if the other people involved in those events look back differently.  Not to say that my wife did not experience trauma because I know she has, but some stories she tells me I do wonder what I would hear if I heard the other side.  If I look at the things I have witnessed with her and her friendships, she sees friends rejecting or abandoning her, and i see friends enforcing boundaries. 

[MaybeSo]

We can speculate all day long about what is going on.  She should be seen by a doctor and be in doctors care.   Does she refuse to get treatment? 

Any of the symptoms you describe could fall under ptsd or complex ptsd, or depression with psychotic features, or delusional disorder or a combination of all of the above etc. etc. She needs medical attention.

Trauma fragments memory.  A person with trauma is not a good reporter of events... because it's the nature of trauma that memory is compromised.  Fragmented, disorganized memory is one of the most telling signs OF trauma.  Trauma directly affects the hippicampus and disrupts normal encoding of memory/events.  That is why we have the classic 'flash back' symptoms... .the brain doesn't properly store traumatic experience, so it is encoded as happening in real time and the environment gives signals to stimulate real time experience... .even if happened years ago.   The memory didn't get encoded correctly and integrated so that the person differentiates an experience as having happened a long time ago... from the felt experience that something similar is happening now.  That's an issue with the encoding of experience.   It's how trauma affects memory.  This is very common with trauma especially if the person was experience something horrible and went into a freeze response during the event.  Psychiatrists that understand trauma now go into police departments to help investigators understand the fragmented presentation that is normal for a trauma victim... .because for years the disjointed reporting of trauma victims led investigators to believe the person was lying or insane.  We know understand how fragmented memory is as a symptom of trauma.

A traumatized person could easily react to a friendly person as though they pose great danger.   This happens all the time.

The amygdala becomes larger and overactive with trauma, too... .its job it to detect danger... .but with trauma... .it overreacts to minor environmental cues all the time.

Bottom line. She is sick. She needs good medical care.  I hope she gets it.

[Cat Familiar]

... .makes me question the reality of some of her past traumatic events, and wonder if the other people involved in those events look back differently.  Not to say that my wife did not experience trauma because I know she has, but some stories she tells me I do wonder what I would hear if I heard the other side.  If I look at the things I have witnessed with her and her friendships, she sees friends rejecting or abandoning her, and i see friends enforcing boundaries.  

I know just what you mean, Max. My husband has talked about a variety of people in his past and how they've mistreated him. I'm beginning to doubt the veracity of some of those accounts after the splitting I've experienced recently like when he made the following comment: "All you do is criticize me." I asked him, "Really, do you think all I do is criticize you?" and he replied, "Yes."

I was raised in a highly critical home and I know that I have high standards and in the past I've been critical of him. Lately, though, I've been monitoring my speech very carefully and have been diligent about trying to say things in a positive kind way and avoiding criticism at all costs. But when I've said, "Is the washing machine empty?" that is taken as a critical comment, rather than an inquiry if he's done with his laundry. In the past I did complain that he would leave his clothes in the washer for days. He still occasionally does that, but I just put them in the laundry basket when I want to use the machine. I'm not going to try to figure out what he wants to put in the dryer and what he would hang up.

So I think about his stories of his ex-wife yelling at him every night for four hours and I wonder just how much truth there is in his account.

[maxsterling]

Yesterday, she was telling me that she feels traumatized in every room of the house because she has flashbacks of talking to police in every room of the house.  What she doesn't understand is that I feel the same traumatization, but for me it's from her screaming at me, calling me names, hitting me, or attempting suicide in every room of the house.

She says she is traumatized by police because her parents called the police on her as a kid.  But when I listen to the details of those childhood stories - let's see, she admits to cursing at and hitting her dad and stepmom, kicking her dad in the crotch, jumping out of a moving car, running out of a family therapy session... .  knowing what I have been through, I can see why her parents called police.  Her dad was traumatized by those events, too. 

She also tells a story of an ex choking her.  But then she claims that one time I tried to choke her, too, and I know that didn't happen.  One time when she told that story about the ex, she added that she had quit taking all her meds a few days prior, and had thought for weeks that this partner was trying to kill her or hurt her.  Based upon what I have been through, I wouldn't be surprised if it was really my wife who started the confrontation, and the "choking" was merely the partner fighting back or trying to get free.  I'm not saying that's the case, because I don't know.  I'm just saying that based upon my reality differing from hers in events over the past few years, I am wondering if there is another side to her past stories, too. 

[Cat Familiar]

Yesterday, she was telling me that she feels traumatized in every room of the house because she has flashbacks of talking to police in every room of the house.  What she doesn't understand is that I feel the same traumatization, but for me it's from her screaming at me, calling me names, hitting me, or attempting suicide in every room of the house.

Our traumas from their acting out don't count. It's always all about them.

[waverider]

She fears consequences. Being made accountable. This goes against her motivation which is to hand responsibility over. direct consequences to her prevent a stark contrast to her soothing process= failure=traumatic.

I get the same dubious tales about being victimized. There is absolutely no point being suspicious, you will never know and it is a waste of your metal energy trying to get to the bottom of past events.

How many people has she taught you to dislike by these tales of victimization? Some other customer in a shop was rude. man in the queue pushed her, siblings abused her, bullied at school/work.