POLL: My BPD detector went off today... interested in comments on my reaction

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Interesting text exchange below... .could spark some discussion...


jogging stroller: FF, this is (ladies name). We bought the stroller from you last weekend. I clearly asked if it was in working order and if anything needed replacing. You told me just wear and tear, but in working order. This stroller has no brakes! The hand brake and the foot break are both completely broken. Thank God I didn't put my kids in this very unsafe stroller. I don't expect you to agree to return the stroller, though that would be the right thing for you to do. However, I do encourage you to consider the consequences of selling completely unsafe items for the use of children.

My kids are 2 months and 2 years old. I can't imagine you would be alright with someone ripping off your wife by selling her something that would put your boys in harms way. I'm very disappointed. 2:08 PM

Me: I'll return your $30 with return of the stroller and an in person apology for the lecture and apparent aspersions against my character 2:53 PM

jogging stroller: I'll talk to my husband about when we can get back to (ff town). You should review our exchanges. At no point did I accuse you of being a bad person. I made 3 points: 1. I asked clearly if anything needed replacing and you answered clearly "no" 2. Please be considerate of safety in the future when selling children's items 3. Put yourself in our shoes- you wouldn't want your wife in this situation. I did not insult you. I want you to be aware that selling a broken stroller can be very dangerous. I appreciate that you are willing to return it. 3:07 PM

Me: I feel insulted. I'm a (ff age) year old man... .do you really think that I have no idea that a broken stroller is dangerous? 3:10 PM

jogging stroller: I understand. I felt taken advantage of and that someone was turning a buck on my me in a way that could hurt my babies. I felt insulted, too. Let's call the broken brakes an oversight and make our returns with no hurt feelings 3:15 PM

Me: no 3:15 PM

Me: stroller... .genuine in person apology,, and you get your $30 back 3:16 PM

jogging stroller: Apologize for what? You told me the stroller was in working condition and it's not. I know a bike shop that will repair it and donate it to charity. Id rather flush $30 and the stroller than give an apology that is undue and run the risk of anyone else getting on this death trap. We're done here. Don't spend your $30 all in one place 3:25 PM

Me: Your choice... 3:27 PM

[formflier]

Interesting text exchange below... .could spark some discussion...


jogging stroller: FF, this is (ladies name). We bought the stroller from you last weekend. I clearly asked if it was in working order and if anything needed replacing. You told me just wear and tear, but in working order. This stroller has no brakes! The hand brake and the foot break are both completely broken. Thank God I didn't put my kids in this very unsafe stroller. I don't expect you to agree to return the stroller, though that would be the right thing for you to do. However, I do encourage you to consider the consequences of selling completely unsafe items for the use of children.

My kids are 2 months and 2 years old. I can't imagine you would be alright with someone ripping off your wife by selling her something that would put your boys in harms way. I'm very disappointed. 2:08 PM

Me: I'll return your $30 with return of the stroller and an in person apology for the lecture and apparent aspersions against my character 2:53 PM

jogging stroller: I'll talk to my husband about when we can get back to (ff town). You should review our exchanges. At no point did I accuse you of being a bad person. I made 3 points: 1. I asked clearly if anything needed replacing and you answered clearly "no" 2. Please be considerate of safety in the future when selling children's items 3. Put yourself in our shoes- you wouldn't want your wife in this situation. I did not insult you. I want you to be aware that selling a broken stroller can be very dangerous. I appreciate that you are willing to return it. 3:07 PM

Me: I feel insulted. I'm a (ff age) year old man... .do you really think that I have no idea that a broken stroller is dangerous? 3:10 PM

jogging stroller: I understand. I felt taken advantage of and that someone was turning a buck on my me in a way that could hurt my babies. I felt insulted, too. Let's call the broken brakes an oversight and make our returns with no hurt feelings 3:15 PM

Me: no 3:15 PM

Me: stroller... .genuine in person apology,, and you get your $30 back 3:16 PM

jogging stroller: Apologize for what? You told me the stroller was in working condition and it's not. I know a bike shop that will repair it and donate it to charity. Id rather flush $30 and the stroller than give an apology that is undue and run the risk of anyone else getting on this death trap. We're done here. Don't spend your $30 all in one place 3:25 PM

Me: Your choice... 3:27 PM

[formflier]

 

So... .I'm interested in comments on how I handled this... .I met this lady in person 1 time when she picked it up.

She showed up... .tossed it in her car ... gave me $30 and left... .

Anyway... .the entire "vibe" of the way she kinda asked for her money back... but not directly... .just the way all of this reads... .set off my "BPD detector"

Do you guys notice things like this more? 

Has a r/s with a pwBPD changed the way you interact with the world?

It has for me... .

I basically figured out under what circumstances I would be ok giving back the $$... .and offered that to her... .for some reason... .(unknown to me)... .she decided her apology was worth more to her (to keep it)... .than $30... .

Anyway... .hope this sparks a discussion about how what we have learned impacts the way we interact with the world.

The old me would have "debated" her about the finer points of the exchange... what she said... .what I said... blah blah...

FF

[123Phoebe]

jogging stroller: I understand. I felt taken advantage of and that someone was turning a buck on my me in a way that could hurt my babies. I felt insulted, too. Let's call the broken brakes an oversight and make our returns with no hurt feelings 3:15 PM

Hi FF,

At this point, I would have accepted it and let it go.  The exchange between you two feels emotionally charged.  Could she have handled her part better from the get-go?  Sure.  Could you have? Mm hmm, at least I think so.

But hey, these things happen!

Not sure about her being BPDish, as much as a woman that feels like she just got screwed and is asserting herself in the best way she knew how, against a man that "lied" about the condition of the stroller to begin with.  Would a man who would lie about the condition of a baby stroller, turn around and return it easily?

I'm not calling you a liar, FF.  I truly believe it was an oversight.

[formflier]

 

Oh... yeah... .I believe brakes worked... .they've never not worked for us  (never not... ?  Hmmm)  Did I run a full diagnostic right before she showed up... .nope... .

And... .I wish that I had asked her if she was satisfied... or suggested she check it out.

She really just looked at it... and went...

[123Phoebe]

Oh... yeah... .I believe brakes worked... .they've never not worked for us  (never not... ?  Hmmm)  

Okay, so you believe she's lying?

Did I run a full diagnostic right before she showed up... .nope... .

Caveat Emptor, I guess.  Unless, the brakes really were faulty, even though you weren't aware of it.

And... .I wish that I had asked her if she was satisfied... or suggested she check it out.

Good idea for the future

[formflier]

Okay, so you believe she's lying?

No idea... .

Agreed that buyers should check stuff out to their satisfaction... .sometimes that can go overboard as well.

Sold a wireless pet fence ($175) to a lady today.  We met at a grocery store and she proceeded to plug it in and start fiddling with it... .for 20 minutes... .

Luckily... .she decided it was working fine... .and paid me the $$

Jeesh...

[Sunfl0wer]

Yup, I think your BPD radar went off for good reason.  She was way over the top with false accusations, jumping to conclusions, etc.

You are not responsible for the safety of her kids, she is.

She is assuming you are trying to swindle her... .Why... .to fear, manipulate, revenge?  Feeling dumb that she did not take responsibility to check out the stroller? And now is ashamed... .projecting her bad feelings onto you.

Her reaction is more than what this situation calls for... .and disrespectful to you.

Now, on the other hand, is demanding she apologize a bit of a power play on your part?  Maybe?  However, I cannot think of another approach to offer you that also demands her further interaction with you would be a deescalated one... .not consumed with disrespect towards you.  So... .in that part... .I'm stumped.

Maybe offer a refund, however she would have to express the very same concerns to your customer service department wife, and manage the return refund through your wife? 

[Cole]

FF,

How would you feel if someone had put you up in a plane with no brakes? Wait... .I guess that is a bad analogy... .

This has nothing to do with BPD. It is the lack of civility in our society.

She overtly implied that you ripped her off:  "I don't expect you to agree to return the stroller, though that would be the right thing for you to do." "I can't imagine you would be alright with someone ripping off your wife by selling her something that would put your boys in harms way."

A text stating the brakes do not work and asking for her money back without the accusatory lecture would have been proper. I don't care how many times she has been ripped off in the past, she was wrong to assume you did the same.    

Your offer to give her money back in exchange for a deserved apology should show her you were not intentionally selling her a defective stroller and sounds fair to me. If losing $30 for her uncivilized way of handling it teaches her something, great. If not, that is on her.  

[Jessica84]

Sounds to me like you took it personally and forgot to validate her. No biggie - she's not your wife - but for the sake of practice, why not use the tools? She felt ripped off, she felt the stroller put her children in danger. Her feelings are her facts.

Personally, I think she was a bit melodramatic about a $30 stroller. I don't have kids but aren't those things in the $100+ range?

[formflier]

It is the lack of civility in our society.

Exactly!

I'm not sure if this was boundaries... or what... .but I have no problem offering the refund.  

Had she asked... .and left it at that... it would have been over... .as quickly as she could bring the stroller out.  And... then I would have looked at the brakes and figured out what was up.  

I probably would have been within my "rights" to say no... the deal is final... but... I'm really not that kind of guy.

The only thing I would not have been ok with... .is letting her blather on about what I would and wouldn't do and give her her money back without standing up for myself.

She offered me a chance to do the right thing... and I did.

I offered her the chance to do right thing... .without a ridiculous accompanying lecture about the right thing... .and she chose not to... .

The entire thing seemed odd or over the top... .

FF

[formflier]

Personally, I think she was a bit melodramatic about a $30 stroller. I don't have kids but aren't those things in the $100+ range?

Yep... .it was about a $150 unit new.  We have used it for years and wanted to get it gone quick... .

So... .what did she expect for $30... .?

FF

[Harri]

Her emails reek of passive aggressive manipulation.  Questioning you as a husband and father is highly manipulative.

The fact is, she bought a used item without checking it out.  Who is negligent here?  Who is putting her own kids at risk?  I would guess she felt stupid and guilty for not checking it out and seems to be passing that responsibility on to you.

Not sure about the BPD radar... .but my BS meter is dinging away in the red zone.  

[Fian]

Personally, I would have just given her back the $30.  I prefer to be on the losing end of the transaction so there is no doubt that I am acting fairly.

[123Phoebe]

So... .what did she expect for $30... .?

FF

Sounds like she was expecting a used stroller; general wear and tear, no parts needing replacing, with working hand and foot brakes

Is it old fashioned to take a man at their word?

[Jessica84]

Are brakes really that important? I mean, and again, I don't have kids, but aren't the parents holding onto the stroller? Surely they aren't strolling down mountains or near the edge of a cliff with babies in it?

But I digress... .as far as FF knew, the stroller and all the parts worked. He wasn't trying to get rich off this lady. So guilt-tripping him or treating him like a con-artist was unfair. But demanding an apology also seems rigid to me. He started to de-escalate the situation with her right up until that point.

Oh well... .this was entertaining. 

[Cole]

This is just another example of why I got out of law enforcement. Neighbor disputes. Road rage. People getting offended and acting like they are victims of the more heinous acts when there was no intended ill will toward them. I spent half my time dealing with adults fighting over the red sucker.

FF unknowingly selling a stroller that did not work is no different than the guy who cut you off in traffic this morning. Give him the benefit of the doubt that he did not do it on purpose before you flip him off. An apology was indeed in order.    

Take it from someone who has been shot at and almost stabbed to death. Getting that upset and uncivil over such a minor thing as a malfunctioning stroller is just not that important.

[123Phoebe]

Are brakes really that important?

If they're worn down to the nubbins, they must be! 

Oh well... .this was entertaining. 

FF, all kidding aside, the entire exchange seems overblown, to me.  Emotions were riding high, it happens!

Have you learned anything?  Are you totally cool with your part?  Would you do anything differently?

[Cole]

So... .what did she expect for $30... .?

FF

Sounds like she was expecting a used stroller; general wear and tear, no parts needing replacing, with working hand and foot brakes

Is it old fashioned to take a man at their word?

No, it is not old fashioned to take a man at his word.

Is it old fashioned to say you have a problem with something you bought without attacking the character of the person who sold it to you? Bet if she had, she would have her $30 and FF would be fixing the stroller before trying to sell it again.  Maybe she learned something. But I doubt it!

[Notwendy]

My experience with dealing with BPD would have resulted in a different conversation.

Recall the "pink elephant" analogy. If someone called you a pink elephant, would you defend yourself or just think the person was nuts, after all you know you are not a pink elephant.

An irate person, who is, in the moment, being self righteous and indignant, accuses you of ripping her off.

But you know that you didn't.  

The demand for an apology escalated the conversation. Someone in her emotional state is not likely to back down and apologize.

It would have gone this way for me

Her: "You ripped me off by selling me this killer baby stroller you mean person!"

Me: ( pink elephant alert) I am happy to give you a refund if you return it. Can we meet at X? ( in a public place where I won't get attacked and will bring someone else along) ( and for $30 I can end this conversation!)

Her : "you mean rip off person!"

Me: I am happy to meet you at X to give you your money back... .and keep repeating it. ( thinking to myselfjoking) lady if you keep talking I will give you $40 to stop )

I think dealing with BPD has made me want to get into things less, at least with people I don't know. Don't sweat the small stuff

So, there are many ways we deal with this, but hopefully you won't be running into her again.

[GaGrl]

She was rude.

She triggered you, you became defensive and were rude in return.

Give her the money back and forget it.

[123Phoebe]

Me: I feel insulted. I'm a (ff age) year old man... .do you really think that I have no idea that a broken stroller is dangerous? 3:10 PM

jogging stroller: I understand. I felt taken advantage of and that someone was turning a buck on my me in a way that could hurt my babies. I felt insulted, too. Let's call the broken brakes an oversight and make our returns with no hurt feelings 3:15 PM

Me: no 3:15 PM

Me: stroller... .genuine in person apology,, and you get your $30 back 3:16 PM

There's just something about demanding a genuine in person apology that seems really weird to me.

[formflier]

Have you learned anything?  Are you totally cool with your part?  Would you do anything differently?

I think I am cool with my part... .

I believe... .hope... I acted properly...

She came out with a weird... suggestive (no direct) rant... .sort of implied she wanted her money back... sort of said I swindled her... .sort of...

So... I let her know she would have her money back... .and the conditions... .no long lecture.  While I wouldn't say I was happy at the moment... .I certainly wasn't triggered or furious... .

By the same token... .I'm not going to go through life letting people suggest that I'm not an honorable guy... .my only leverage was that she wanted me to do the right thing... .which I was willing to do.  If she was willing to be a stand up gal... .

Anyway... .

FF

[formflier]

There's just something about demanding a genuine in person apology that seems really weird to me.

See... .I think it is just as weird that you would NOT do that in person... that is what I teach my kids... what I've been taught.

Look a person in the eye... .tell them you are sorry... .ask forgiveness... whatever you want to say.

Or... if you think they are a crook... .again... .in person... .

So... .for instance... when I have had problems with cars... .businesses... .whatever... .much better to deal with someone in person

FF

[KateCat]

Maybe you were triggered because your wife suggests all the time that you are not an honorable guy. And maybe your wife never apologizes.

[123Phoebe]

There's just something about demanding a genuine in person apology that seems really weird to me.

See... .I think it is just as weird that you would NOT do that in person... that is what I teach my kids... what I've been taught.

Look a person in the eye... .tell them you are sorry... .ask forgiveness... whatever you want to say.

Or... if you think they are a crook... .again... .in person... .

So... .for instance... when I have had problems with cars... .businesses... .whatever... .much better to deal with someone in person

FF

I get what you're saying FF.

I keep coming back to this:

"jogging stroller: I understand. I felt taken advantage of and that someone was turning a buck on my me in a way that could hurt my babies. I felt insulted, too. Let's call the broken brakes an oversight and make our returns with no hurt feelings 3:15 PM"

I personally believe that had the conversation ended here, after an "Okay, sounds good"--an in person apology might very well have happened on her own.  No demands or instructions necessary.

[formflier]

I personally believe that had the conversation ended here, after an "Okay, sounds good"--an in person apology might very well have happened on her own.  No demands or instructions necessary.

It very well may have... .

She wanted her $30... .I wanted my apology... .

At that point... .there was... .and still is... .zero chance of me handing over $30 without an apology... .

If I was certain that I had done something wrong... .or it was very likely I did something wrong... .then I would sing a different tune.

I have no idea what happened to brakes... .possibilities are endless... .

FF

[123Phoebe]

I personally believe that had the conversation ended here, after an "Okay, sounds good"--an in person apology might very well have happened on her own.  No demands or instructions necessary.

It very well may have... .

She wanted her $30... .I wanted my apology... .

At that point... .there was... .and still is... .zero chance of me handing over $30 without an apology... .

If I was certain that I had done something wrong... .or it was very likely I did something wrong... .then I would sing a different tune.

I have no idea what happened to brakes... .possibilities are endless... .

FF

Well, and as it stands, neither of you got what you wanted.  Such is life... .

[fiveplus]

  FF,  Hiya    I was reading this subject and had a thought.  I have bought items secondhand for my kids.  And usually it's because I was trying to save what little money we had. It's

kind of scary and you have to be careful, and you have NO IDEA what kind of person you are buying from. It's the worst feeling in the world when you get it home and realize that it

doesn't work, your money is gone and there's NOTHING you can do about it.

           Perhaps this woman was just in a bad situation and was feeling overwhelmed, scared and she assumed that you were a bad person who had taken advantage of her.  it

happens... .people assume the worst. WE can't control what others think or feel, or how they treat us. We can only control how we act , how we respond, and how we treat them.


          Whether or not this woman was BPD is not the issue.  You felt hurt and angry at her accusations (and you can do that).  You tried to force HER to do something, IF she wanted her

money back (you can't do that).  To give her a refund or not is YOUR choice. How you respond to being treated unfairly is UP TO YOU.  Sound familiar?


          You are demanding that this woman  perform an act of apologizing,  before YOU can do . what I assume you think is, the right thing and return her money.

         Not only in our relationships, but out in the world, we will always meet and interact with people who are rude, disrespectful , assume the worst of us... .and it's UP TO US how we

respond to them!  98% of the time, I can disengage, remind myself that how they are responding is NOT my problem, and just deal with the issue at hand.  (the other 2% I get mad,

feel disrespected, yell and throw things at the squirrels in the backyard )  (Sigh)   

       Anyway, you seem like a reasonable person, and it's just my perspective. Try to step back and think what advice you would give to your wife if she came to you with this.  Good luck

with things.

[OffRoad]

Her emails reek of passive aggressive manipulation.  Questioning you as a husband and father is highly manipulative.

The fact is, she bought a used item without checking it out.  Who is negligent here?  Who is putting her own kids at risk?  I would guess she felt stupid and guilty for not checking it out and seems to be passing that responsibility on to you.

This^^^^^.

FWIW, when she sent her first text, the response "That is unfortunate. The last time I used the stroller, the brakes worked properly. What makes you think I didn't consider the consequences of selling completely unsafe items for the use of children? And what makes you think I wouldn't give you a refund if you asked me for a refund because the item is defective?" might have gotten an interesting answer.

And demanding an apology instead of asking for clarification was probably not the best opening move on your part.

[formflier]

FWIW, when she sent her first text, the response "That is unfortunate. The last time I used the stroller, the brakes worked properly. What makes you think I didn't consider the consequences of selling completely unsafe items for the use of children? And what makes you think I wouldn't give you a refund if you asked me for a refund because the item is defective?" might have gotten an interesting answer.

And demanding an apology instead of asking for clarification was probably not the best opening move on your part.

Interesting... .I see the tactic... .I like it.  If I had done as you suggest... .I would be tossing her some rope... . She then would have a choice to rescue herself with it... .or hang herself...

I also could have gone to my old standby "help me understand... ."

JADE alert!  :  Since her communication was so "wordy"... .I was trying to be efficient and communicate my message... .with as few words as possible.  In fact... .I was deliberate in using "apparent aspersions"... .rather than just telling her she was being nasty... .because of her suggestive approach.

Offroad:  I'm having a bit of a Seinfeld moment... .the one where George kept figuring out what he wished he would have said... .but it was too late...

FF