The replacement is often a downgrade

[Depression = 72% of members]

I have read on posts that the replacement is often a "downgrade"----lower status in terms of job, finances, appearance, behavior, manners, etc.

Why is that?  What I  think is that a person who has less of these qualities than the non did, is more of a "sure thing" for the BPD.  If they see the replacement as less than the ex in these areas, they might feel more secure thinking at least the replacement won't abandon them so readily.

  I also think the BP would find it easier to split the replacement black if they see the replacement as having fewer of these good qualities... .and the BP would get an ego boost and split self white "in comparison to" a downgraded replacement.

[shatra]

I have read on posts that the replacement is often a "downgrade"----lower status in terms of job, finances, appearance, behavior, manners, etc.

Why is that?  What I  think is that a person who has less of these qualities than the non did, is more of a "sure thing" for the BPD.  If they see the replacement as less than the ex in these areas, they might feel more secure thinking at least the replacement won't abandon them so readily.

  I also think the BP would find it easier to split the replacement black if they see the replacement as having fewer of these good qualities... .and the BP would get an ego boost and split self white "in comparison to" a downgraded replacement.

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[HappyNihilist]

People who have BPD are drawn to people who fulfill certain needs of theirs. There's a level of objectification there (unconscious) that means that not much else matters except how well those current needs are fulfilled.

Some people may feel that their 'replacement' was a 'downgrade' from themselves - but they are looking at it through their own value lens. Not taking into consideration that their ex looks at things through a different value lens.

My replacement wasn't a downgrade from me on paper, and obviously she has qualities that he values.

Bottom line, their decisions are usually based on their own needs at the time. That's part of the disorder. It's futile to try to compare ourselves with their exes or current/future partners.

The commonality is typically emotional vulnerability. Far more productive, then, to focus on and address our own vulnerabilities, and other things that made us attracted to our relationships.

[shatra]

 Nihilisst wrote--

Some people may feel that their 'replacement' was a 'downgrade' from themselves - but they are looking at it through their own value lens. Not taking into consideration that their ex looks at things through a different value lens.

---There's more to it than this. The replacement is often not just a downgrade as looked at by the ex, but by the BP's friends, family, outsiders, etc. And very often they are a downgrade on paper.  It;s not just how the ex sees it--t is a pattern I've seen and read about.

----It may be that the BPD feels more secure with  a partner who doesn't have as much to offer, as that person is more of a "sure thing" who is less likely to abandon the BP (the BP's biggest fear) than someone with better qualities.  It may also be that the BPD sees themself as "above" the replacement, so it's easier to split themself white and the replacement black

[123Phoebe]

There's more to it than this. The replacement is often not just a downgrade as looked at by the ex, but by the BP's friends, family, outsiders, etc. And very often they are a downgrade on paper. It;s not just how the ex sees it--t is a pattern I've seen and read about.

It may be that the BPD feels more secure with  a partner who doesn't have as much to offer, as that person is more of a "sure thing" who is less likely to abandon the BP (the BP's biggest fear) than someone with better qualities.  It may also be that the BPD sees themself as "above" the replacement, so it's easier to split themself white and the replacement black

Shatra, where are you getting your information from or basing it off of?  :)o you feel like you're a downgrade from your ex's past partner(s)?

[Herodias]

Yes, that's kind of weird. My husband had a younger gf when he met me. When I found out I left him alone... .after 3 months they broke up and we got back together. He saw me as a major upgrade actually. He saw me as someone who had my life together, owned my own business and owned my condo. He said I made him want to be a better man. He moved up over the years in his company and did very well. He was into all kinds of expensive hobbies. I helped him get out of debt and we bought a beautiful home. We were doing well financially- he always had to have the best of the best of everything. Ate as nice restaurants as well. After cheating on me, because he wanted to get rid of me and the house, he is with a younger woman who works in his company, one step down from him position wise. She left her husband, horses and nice home and property where she wouldn't have had to work if she didn't want to. Now they are both broke, eat at home or fast food. He lives in a dump, she is very fat and unattractive, she is a self proclaimed redneck and he comes from a conservative family. He used to make fun of people who talked like her! Now he is doing it too! He says he is happy. The only thing he has left is his golf clubs which he cannot afford to play anymore. All his credit cards are in collections and he is drinking a ton, but not so much in front of her- I believe. Her roommate is a cop and she wants him to move in with her. He won't do it for now. Not with a pending felony charge. She doesn't know about! I don't get it... .They say you should lower your expectations with mentally ill people. Especially if they are your kids. He up graded with me, then down graded with her... .hard to tell what they are thinking, but what you said about whatever fits the moment... .If I see it from his eyes, she has low self esteem, feeds his ego, likes guns like he does (look out world on that one) and she lets him drink... .for now! My friend says she will not stand him once she learns about the porn and the cheating and lying. The thing is, she cheated on her husband with him, so who knows... .

[123Phoebe]

Yes, that's kind of weird. My husband had a younger gf when he met me. When I found out I left him alone... .after 3 months they broke up and we got back together. He saw me as a major upgrade actually. He saw me as someone who had my life together, owned my own business and owned my condo. He said I made him want to be a better man. He moved up over the years in his company and did very well. He was into all kinds of expensive hobbies. I helped him get out of debt and we bought a beautiful home. We were doing well financially- he always had to have the best of the best of everything. Ate as nice restaurants as well. After cheating on me, because he wanted to get rid of me and the house, he is with a younger woman who works in his company, one step down from him position wise. She left her husband, horses and nice home and property where she wouldn't have had to work if she didn't want to. Now they are both broke, eat at home or fast food. He lives in a dump, she is very fat and unattractive, she is a self proclaimed redneck and he comes from a conservative family. He used to make fun of people who talked like her! Now he is doing it too! He says he is happy. The only thing he has left is his golf clubs which he cannot afford to play anymore. All his credit cards are in collections and he is drinking a ton, but not so much in front of her- I believe. Her roommate is a cop and she wants him to move in with her. He won't do it for now. Not with a pending felony charge. She doesn't know about! I don't get it... .They say you should lower your expectations with mentally ill people. Especially if they are your kids. He up graded with me, then down graded with her... .hard to tell what they are thinking, but what you said about whatever fits the moment... .If I see it from his eyes, she has low self esteem, feeds his ego, likes guns like he does (look out world on that one) and she lets him drink... .for now! My friend says she will not stand him once she learns about the porn and the cheating and lying. The thing is, she cheated on her husband with him, so who knows... .

Hey, if someone is happier with someone else, then more power to 'em.  That's what I took from this entire post-- "He says he is happy".  All the rest seems to be conjecture; upgrading, downgrading... . 

Is there any clinical proof or validity to this from a "Staying" perspective?

[EaglesJuju]

I don't have personal experience with a replacement, but there are many times the ex pwBPD will find a new partner with completely opposite traits than the ex. I would not classify that as a "downgrade," it is more on the lines of being completely different from what you are used to.

One of the criteria of BPD is an unstable sense of self, all of that lies within object constancy and poor self-image.  The pwBPD relies on another for the image of their self, from which they gain their identity. It is common for a pwBPD to adapt like a chameleon to their environment and people.

When my pwBPD has been around certain family members, he acts completely different. He adapts their taste in music, colloquialisms, clothing style, hobbies, etc. He has even looked completely different in pictures.  He has told me often that he does not know who the hell he is or has no idea what he wants. He explained it further and said, "I wear a mask to people that I am not close to. I pretend that everything is okay, I am not depressed, and am normal." Essentially it is a way for him to cope and fit in.

These relationships can be devastating when they end. I understand the anger and it is a part of the healing process. The ambivalent behavior can make you question what was real and what was not. It is hurtful when someone leaves you for another. I get why someone would compare themselves to a replacement. I found being in the habit of comparing yourself to anyone is not helpful. Sure we can do this to make ourselves temporarily feel better, but does it really help? Generally speaking, everyone has good qualities and is unique.

[shatra]

   The downgrade trend, as stated in the original post, is a trend written about in posts on this forum.

Herodias wrote--

He says he is happy. The only thing he has left is his golf clubs which he cannot afford to play anymore. All his credit cards are in collections and he is drinking a ton,

---Anyone who "says" he is happy with all that going on sounds like he is in denial.

----In my case, too, the BP says I was an upgrade compared to his ex... .I often see that a BP will feel "all bad"  compared to someone who he sees as above him in various areas----and if he downgrades to someone like Herodias's  BP's partner he may feel safer---someone like that may be less likely to abandon him.

[123Phoebe]

  The downgrade trend, as stated in the original post, is a trend written about in posts on this forum.

Herodias wrote--

He says he is happy. The only thing he has left is his golf clubs which he cannot afford to play anymore. All his credit cards are in collections and he is drinking a ton,

---Anyone who "says" he is happy with all that going on sounds like he is in denial.

----In my case, too, the BP says I was an upgrade compared to his ex... .I often see that a BP will feel "all bad"  compared to someone who he sees as above him in various areas----and if he downgrades to someone like Herodias's  BP's partner he may feel safer---someone like that may be less likely to abandon him.

So, they upgrade and downgrade?

Is your ex seeing someone else?  If so, is it helping you to believe that he "downgraded" because it feels safer than being with you?  In what ways?

If not, then... .?

The fact remains that you're no longer together, right?  :)oes focusing on what he is or might be doing help in bringing you back together, or having a different future relationship of your own?  If he came back, would you do anything differently from before?

Is he showing signs, making any advancements toward getting back together, all on his own?

[shatra]

So, they upgrade and downgrade?

-----As is clarified in the post, they tend to downgrade with an ex. My being an upgrade was uncomfortable for the BP, as he said he felt "less than" me.

Is your ex seeing someone else?  If so, is it helping you to believe that he "downgraded" because it feels safer than being with you?  In what ways?

If not, then... .?

-----No he is not seeing anyone.   I raised the topic since it is a trend I noticed on the board, and some people enjoy having discussions related to the board's focus, even if it doesn't apply directly to them

The fact remains that you're no longer together, right?  Does focusing on what he is or might be doing help in bringing you back together, or having a different future relationship of your own?  If he came back, would you do anything differently from before?  Is he showing signs, making any advancements toward getting back together, all on his own?

----Yes it is very helpful, as I find many people's posts helpful in sorting through the  behaviors of the BPD.  As I see many people post on what the BPD is doing or might be doing.    He is showing signs, not sure what "all on his own" means.

[Herodias]

Mine was making comments that he wanted to "come home to his wife"... .When he was drunk twice in July and August- when I didn't seem welcoming I guess the next day he said he was drunk and didn't mean it- he lies so much it's hard to tell... .I'm sure it's less pressure right now for him. As a friend of mine pointed out- I became like an authority figure that he had to get away from. He's like a college kid out on his own after a long time. Dating an immature 26 year old- she is very immature- not because of her age. He's 34... .he is in a position where he can do whatever he wants and no one can tell him what he can and should not do... .That part makes him happy I'm sure.

[HappyNihilist]

So, they upgrade and downgrade?

-----As is clarified in the post, they tend to downgrade with an ex. My being an upgrade was uncomfortable for the BP, as he said he felt "less than" me.

People see 'downgrade' and 'upgrade' through their own value lenses.

Someone who places a high value on, say, professional success and material possessions will view the world quite differently than someone who doesn't.

When we start talking in downgrade/upgrade terms about human beings, what we are doing is establishing a rating system for our fellow humans based on our own personal values. This is objectifying - it invalidates the uniqueness of people.

It's also objectifying the ex. Yes, there is pathology involved with BPD and BPD traits. And I do think it's helpful to learn about that. But there's also a very real, individual, valid human being there making decisions based on what they value and think is best for themselves.

[shatra]

Nihilist wrote---

People see 'downgrade' and 'upgrade' through their own value lenses.

Someone who places a high value on, say, professional success and material possessions will view the world quite differently than someone who doesn't.

----We are talking about downgrade through what the individual BPD values, and they often have a replacement who is lacking in those individual values

When we start talking in downgrade/upgrade terms about human beings, what we are doing is establishing a rating system for our fellow humans based on our own personal values. This is objectifying - it invalidates the uniqueness of people.

----Everyone is unique, noone is invalidating that. Just as when we talk about the BPD's tendency to rage, act impulsively, and self-harm, we are describing them, not rating them or objectifying them

It's also objectifying the ex. Yes, there is pathology involved with BPD and BPD traits. And I do think it's helpful to learn about that. But there's also a very real, individual, valid human being there making decisions based on what they value and think is best for themselves.

-----The act of replacement actually has little to do with rational decisions or what the BPD thinks is best for themselves. It is often impulsive, often based on trying to fill a gap left by the ex, and is often acted out with an individual who has lower levels of traits and behaviors than the ex. This is the pattern people often describe. Whether it's a pleasant pattern or not, this is what is described.

[HappyNihilist]

We are talking about downgrade through what the individual BPD values, and they often have a replacement who is lacking in those individual values

Do you truly know what someone else values or needs?

The only person whose values and needs we can know for sure is us.

What are your values and needs, shatra? What is important to you in life?

Everyone is unique, noone is invalidating that. Just as when we talk about the BPD's tendency to rage, act impulsively, and self-harm, we are describing them, not rating them or objectifying them

Pathology is objectifying by its nature. Psychology isn't and shouldn't be. Yes, it's important to discuss and learn about BPD traits, and it helps to make sense of a lot. But talking about definable traits and patterns and research is not the same as comparing individual people to each other, as concepts like 'upgrade/downgrade' are.

The act of replacement actually has little to do with rational decisions or what the BPD thinks is best for themselves.

It may or may not have little to do with rational decisions, but it has everything to do with what the pwBPD thinks is best for themselves. If a person can fulfill their needs and make them feel good, then isn't that what's best for them? It doesn't matter if the needs and feelings are healthy or not, or what we perceive as healthy. They are still valid feelings and needs, and having those needs fulfilled is what the pwBPD thinks is best for them.

It is often impulsive, often based on trying to fill a gap left by the ex, and is often acted out with an individual who has lower levels of traits and behaviors than the ex. This is the pattern people often describe. Whether it's a pleasant pattern or not, this is what is described.

A lot of things are impulsive in pwBPD. When feelings = facts, impulsive actions reign. And yes, for the pwBPD, finding a partner is often based on trying to fill a gap. But this isn't a gap left by a specific person - it's just a gap. It's the gap from the core wound, deep in the psyche, a gap that only the pwBPD can fill but which often gets filled with other people.

(Ok, I may have taken this metaphor too far, because I see now how 'a gap that often gets filled with other people' may be a, shall we say, indelicate way of referring to a serious issue. Although the double meaning can be applicable, too.   )

This pattern is even less pleasant, because it means that the partners are objectified by the pwBPD, 'replaceable' salves for an emotional wound. All partners, not just 'replacements' or exes.

But again - just because there is a pathology and pattern doesn't mean that there aren't real people involved, making their own choices. Just because partners are objectified in their way doesn't mean that a pwBPD doesn't feel love towards them or appreciate them for their unique qualities, too.

What qualities of yours do you think your ex appreciated? What qualities of yours do you appreciate?

Because we're real people who make our own choices, too. This is a good opportunity to look at your own values, explore yourself, and build a life for yourself that is authentic to your personal values.

[123Phoebe]

The act of replacement actually has little to do with rational decisions or what the BPD thinks is best for themselves. It is often impulsive, often based on trying to fill a gap left by the ex, and is often acted out with an individual who has lower levels of traits and behaviors than the ex. This is the pattern people often describe. Whether it's a pleasant pattern or not, this is what is described.

Shatra, this might be a described pattern, often by whom?  Ex-lovers trying to make sense of the rejection?  I've not read anything from a credible non-bias source describing this downgrade pattern.

A pattern I do see is that of non-acceptance.  When we don't fully accept our circumstances, we can find ourselves focusing on BPD behaviors and traits in others, which blocks our own grieving process and healing.  In a sense, we become victims, not thriving or surviving-- stuck. 

Here's a link to Radical Acceptance: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0

If your ex comes back wanting to resume the relationship, what will you do?  What have you learned about yourself through the recycles?

[shatra]

Nihilist wrote---

"it's important to discuss and learn about BPD traits, and it helps to make sense of a lot. But talking about definable traits and patterns and research is not the same as comparing individual people to each other, as concepts like 'upgrade/downgrade' are."

---Actually traits and patterns re: the original topic does involve comparing individual people to each other.  Just as research, whether clinical or experimental, often involves comparing individual people to each other.  On this website, many people have shared their experience with the trend of the replacement being a downgrade.

---This is not just based on an ex's viewpoint, it is one that is often noted by the BP's family and friends as well.

"(Replacement) may or may not have little to do with rational decisions, but it has everything to do with what the pwBPD thinks is best for themselves. If a person can fulfill their needs and make them feel good, then isn't that what's best for them?"

-----Not really.  BP's themselves have said they realized the choice of a replacement was not best for themselves, but was a "mistake" or an impulse. They may take an opportunity, even while realizing it isn't best for them but taking it because it's available.  And a person "fulfilling one's needs and making them feel good" for the moment is very often not at all what is best for someone.  That applies to the replacements people have written about, overeating, codependence, alcohol, etc. etc.

[Lou12]

Shantra I do agree with what your saying to some degree. For me I absolutely believe that my BPD will always recycle me until he finds someone who he perceives to out weigh me. By personality, looks, finances, morals etc... When and if he does I know I will be absolutely dropped for that person. So I know where your coming from unfortunately the nature of the illness means that a lot are not loyal and can't be trusted

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